How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Martin Freeman - ‘We should be saying no to our kids’

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Martin Freeman is one of the most sought-after actors of his generation. Whether it’s Tim in The Office, John - the mild-mannered porn actor in Love Actually, Watson in Sherlock, Bilbo in The Hobbit, the stressed parent in Breeders, the Liverpudlian cop with personal problems in The Responder and Everett K. Ross in Marvel Cinematic Universe smash hits Captain America and Black Panther - Freeman is a star, and to date has won two Emmys and a BAFTA. In this episode, Martin reflects on his childhood as the youngest of five (comparatively modest when you consider his mother was one of fourteen!) as well as the lasting impact of losing his father at ten years old. We talk about parenting, the people who’ve inspired him (hello, Michael Caine), the future of AI from a technophobe’s perspective, his unease with fame and the quieter failures that sit behind public success. Plus: strap yourself in for much hilarity. I don’t think I can remember a guest who made me laugh QUITE this much. Martin can next be seen as the determined Superintendent Battle in Netflix’s new Agatha Christie adaptation, Seven Dials. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction 02:22 Dealing with Fame and Anxiety 05:12 The Everyman Label 07:35 Exploring Anger and Authenticity 16:28 Academic Struggles and Early Acting 20:33 Personal Reflections and Family 28:08 Comparing to Heroes 32:15 The Office and Sherlock 40:29 Technology Struggles 44:20 AI Concerns 47:47 Meeting Michael Caine 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: You should say no to your kids. You should let them know that life's gonna kick 'em in the ass... that is a manifestation of love for me. There is a great deal of value in making a child bored... How else are you going to paint, or make up a story or learn a trade or learn a skill if you are literally mouth agape looking at a f***ing screen? The people who say it [success] doesn't solve your problems are obviously right... But love is a good start to it - it does more than anything else. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Seven Dials is available to watch now on Netflix. Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ 📚 WANT MORE? Stephen Merchant - on feeling like an outsider, learning to live with rejection and being banned from High And Mighty. swap.fm/l/Lta5mlFbVnPHyFb8R1n2 Adeel Akhtar - the actor’s actor on the humbling impact of parenthood, cultural expectations and learning to let go of ego in order to grow swap.fm/l/eWxKBXUJZAAkfovquzwi 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Martin answer listener questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This month, we are partnering with Pink Lady Apples. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes you can't truly be successful unless you learn from failure along the way. Before we get started on this conversation, please do remember to follow and subscribe so that you never miss a single episode. People don't need to know everything about me, you know. They already know more about me than I wish they did. So I don't know why I'm doing this.

Why am I doing this? I don't know, but I'm so grateful. For me, parenting was and is, all of it. It's extreme love, it's extreme laughs, it's extreme affection, and it's extreme frustration and anger. What we're in danger of doing sometimes now is taking away all the sort of the grit that makes people vaguely interesting or vaguely resilient. It's an age-old story that January is the best time for new beginnings, a fresh start and new ideas. Now, it might be a cliche, but it's true that the Christmas break and New Year always get me reflecting on the previous 12 months. In 2026, though, I want to look forwards.

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hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 200 of the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass delivers a world-class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing. So there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink and The Tipping Point. He's done 24 classes on how to find, research and write stories that capture big ideas, and it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or work out into a classroom with audio mode,

so you can listen to a Masterclass lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com slash fail. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash fail. Masterclass.com slash fail. For the past 25 years, Martin Freeman has starred in a succession of big and small screen hits, quietly becoming one of the most sought-after actors of his generation. His roles are notable both for the naturalism of Freeman's performance and for their cultural permanence. There's the put-upon Tim in the office, or John, the mild-mannered porn actor in Love Actually, or Watson, the noble sidekick in the hit series Sherlock. But there's

also Bilbo in The Hobbit, the stressed parent in breeders, the Liverpoolian cop with personal problems in The Responder, and Everett K. Ross in Marvel Cinematic Universe Smash Hits, Captain America and Black Panther. Now Freeman returns to TV in a new Netflix Agha Christie adaptation Seven Dials as the dogged Superintendent Battle. The astonishing variety of his roles has made it almost impossible for journalists to find a common thread. But for Freeman, it's quite simple. It comes down to the script and the writing. That's the beginning, middle and end of it, he said in a recent interview. His acting has earned him two Emmys and a BAFTA,

and yet as a child, he was the youngest of five. Freeman originally thought he'd be a squash player. Watching one of his heroes, Michael Kane in the movie's sleuth, helped change his mind. And after a stint in youth theatre, he went on to study at the Central School of Speech and Drama. He hasn't always enjoyed the attention that fame brings him. Asked in 2019, what's single?

thing would improve the quality of his life, he replied, a really careful lobotomy to switch off bits of my brain. Martin Freeman, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you very much. Thank you. Which bits did you want switched off? The inner cop in your head, I suppose. The thing that makes me go, yeah, but what if that's not true? Or do you really mean that? What do you, what's your motivation? You know, and I think I think, to be honest, I think it's good to question your motivations. I guess in both of our adult lifetimes, we've got very keen and comfortable with saying there should be no guilt, there should be no judgment.

I fundamentally disagree. I think there should be guilt. There should be judgment. There should be accountability and including for self. So I do that to myself a lot. That doesn't mean that I'm a great person, but it just means that I go in circles of, I don't know, I think I probably have an anxious mind, I think. And so I think there's always just this little tremor ticking around, I think. Has success or recognition helped that anxiety at all?

At times. Asking for a friend. Yeah, no, probably at times, yeah. I think it has. But not as much as personal happiness and satisfaction, no. I mean, that, you know, that sounds like a pat answer. But it is true, you know, that all the people who say it doesn't solve your problems. of course, obviously right

because nothing solves all your problems but love is a good you know, love is a good start to it and it that does more than yeah, it does more than anything else I mean I, for the last you know, as you said, the last 25 or years since I've been sort of known, you know,

from the office times and I've kind of been a known person not to everyone but some people I've been on a sort of mission to try to enjoy those parts of it, you know. And I do struggle with it. I really enjoy work and I really enjoy, because I do for a living what I would do for free.

That's an unbelievably fluky game to be in. But yeah, the other stuff, frankly, you can sometimes enjoy it for sure. But, no, I think it plays havoc with my nervous system. And I genuinely don't think, I haven't found a way to handle it properly, I don't think. Well, thank you for your honesty in saying that. No, none of that was true. Was it not?

Okay. Well, thank you for delivering another accident. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very natural. Yeah. One of the things that struck me when I was doing the research this interview is what I mentioned in the introduction, I felt that journalists, when they wrote up interviews with you, were struggling to come up with an easy line

that would explain your work trajectory. And the one that many of them settled on was the idea of you as an every man as a sort of as the person who's the conduit for the audience. And I, the more I read about it, the more I felt how unfair that was because Bilbo's not on every man. And the astonishing variety of your roles

would seem to contradict that. Yeah. I mean, the Everyman tag happened straight away. So like from, you know, the office and Love Actually and probably hitchhiker's guide or I played Arthur Dent and stuff. And you know what it's like in journalism and just in culture generally where you say something and you don't even mean it, but you've heard it said four times before.

So you're literally just being an echo of the last person you heard speak. So I think there was a bit of laziness with that. And it made me, because I am a reasonably angry person, it made me pretty chippy about it. And then, of course, the more chippy you are about something, then you're just, then you've lost. Because if you're the one going, but I'm not on every, you know, you just look pathetic. Then you become defensive, Martin Freeman. Exactly. Exactly.

So it just becomes pathetic then, you know. I agree with you. I do think, you know, I'm not making a claim for myself as the most, you know, brilliantly versatile actor in the world. But I don't think it's quite right that, oh, he's just the every man things. If you look at the characters I've played, I don't think they all fit into that. And I don't think they're all versions of Tim from the office, which basically people mean they're all versions of you, Martin. They're all versions of you know.

So I think what makes you a little bit chippy sometimes is, well, if you think this is easy, you fucking try it. Yeah. I'd love to see your goat. And I don't mean not everybody can do what I do. I'm not even going to do what actors, what good actors do. because there's a lot of juggling happening and the point is to make it look easy

and the point is, for me anyway, has always religiously been to make it look natural. Don't ever get caught acting, ever, if you can avoid it. And so people, I think, take that and think, oh, you're not doing anything. Yes. Yeah, I'm doing a bit.

Tell me more about this anger. Because when you co-created breeders, that was an examination of a reality in parenting and you've spoken very openly about how sometimes you have regretted the anger but it's totally understandable

when you're a parent and you're under an immense amount of pressure is that one of the places that your anger has come out definitely yeah of course absolutely I think because I knew I had that in me but it's never been tested

in the same way that it is when you become a parent I think because for me parenting was and is all of it it's extreme It's extreme laughs. It's extreme affection.

And it's extreme frustration and anger. You know, it's all of those things. And part of the reason that I, I can't speak for Simon and Chris, my collaborators on breeders, definitely part of the reason I wanted to make it was to make people not feel so bad. Yeah. It was just about what do you do as a human being when the rug is pulled from you and you think, I know who I am. And I think I'm, I think I'm pretty nice bloat.

You know, that was my thing. It's like for 30 years I'd been told I was a nice guy. I'm a nice guy. I'm a really good guy. And then you suddenly find out, maybe I'm not a really good guy because I've got all this other stuff happening as well that doesn't negate everything else, but it's definitely accompanies it.

I think it's honestly genuinely harmful what we do to ourselves in our culture in the last 20-odd years of thinking we've kind of convinced ourselves that somehow parenting is a postcard or something. It's mad. For me, it's mad. Because anybody vaguely of my generation, even vaguely of my generation, knows that's not true. Because they know that their mum and dad, if they had a mum and dad, fucking screamed at them at some point.

Many of them know that life was as chaotic or more chaotic than it was lovely. Now, I'm very, I never made any bones about it. I'm very lucky. I always knew I was loved and that was my power, really. I was supported and I was loved. That meant everything to me. I know plenty of people who, whom that was not the case, and I think that's coloured their life a lot.

And I think the fact that I knew I was love, coloured my life a lot. But the idea that, well, this is, you know, this is my opinion. The idea that you don't say no to your kids, the idea that you don't shout at your kids, it was like, okay, good luck with that, good luck. Yeah. Really, fuck it, I wish you luck. If I don't wish you luck, because that's fucking mental. I don't wish you luck with that.

It's doomed to fail, and it should fail. you should say no to your kids. You know, you should let them know that life's going to kick him in the ass, in my opinion. And if I can help with that, I'll happily do my bit, you know, and that is a manifestation of love for me. Well, I know so many parents and actually non-parents who felt very seen by breeders. So thank you for your service. And I kind of agree with you, you know, for so many years,

once we got smartphones and social media, we were living under the shadow of curated perfection. And now I think it's pivoted and it's almost like curated imperfection. We're willing to share failures but only so far. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. And I think that your honesty goes a long way in attacking that. Yeah, I mean, for me, I try not to make any bones about it.

I don't want to make myself impressive or special with the idea that, again, even when I say, I know I've got anger in me, I don't think that is interesting. It's not romantic. It doesn't mean I was a bad boy. It doesn't mean any of that shit. It just means I know that I have a ticking away some sort of rage that is often an impotent rage, but it's fucking there. And certain things unlock it. But that's the other thing.

It's not trying to sound interesting. It's just true. And there are many things I wouldn't talk to you about in front of a camera and a microphone because I'm also really private. Or do I believe in, I don't know if I believe in it, but I agree with it when people in a sort of public position try to demystify. Yes. I also understand when the old, the conversation where people say, stars used to be stars. You know, you didn't know shit about Carrie Grant. And on the one hand, I think, well, yeah, that's, but that, but that was a lie because we didn't, you know, we were thinking they were amazing and of course they were.

And on the other hand, I think, yeah, fine. People don't need to know everything about me, you know. They already know more about me than I wish they did. So I don't know why I'm doing this. Why am I doing this? I don't know, but I'm so grateful. Maybe it's that impotent rage has just pushed you to the edge. No, I mean, I do believe, you know, because obviously I believe in talking

and I believe in being honest. But that doesn't mean I have to splurge it all out. Yeah. I don't believe in splurging, but I believe in, where it's appropriate and where the time and place is appropriate we may as well have direct conversations that's what Breeders was about

it wasn't even about just about screaming at your kids because if anyone who watches that show there's as much love as there is swearing you know and the point is there is swearing and in the 2020s that for some people is unbelievably brave or bold

or wrong or something because it's going against the complete wave of culture, which is in our sort of way, showbiz world, in nice, arty, you know, liberal, left-leaning world where I know people who don't disagree with their kids.

I'm like, well, mate, okay, what do you think made you the person you are? Because your mum and dad were chaotic. Or you had a chaotic, i.e. real.

I. It's called being alive, right? I think what we're doing, what we're in danger of doing sometimes now is taking away all the sort of the grit that makes people vaguely interesting or vaguely resilient. And that is lethal, man. I think what you're identifying is the difference between privacy and secrecy. So there are things that you understandably, and I completely respect it, want to keep private because there's a do with you in your personal life and other people.

Once it's out, it's out. Yes. And then there's secrecy or dishonesty. which is about not naming emotions or feelings that we all have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what you do through your work. And actually, for you to act sufficiently well for us to recognize that or for you to create sufficiently well for us to recognize that in ourselves,

you also need to be private because people need to believe in your roles. 100%. That's what I like when I see really, really, when I see good pieces of work just as a viewer and as a fan of them, I'm seeing humans do stuff to other humans or things being done to people, emotionally or physically or whatever it is. And I don't like being lied to.

And I think most of the time we are lying to the audience and about whether being more heroic than we would be or about being smarter than we would be or sexier than we would be or not being as scared as we would be, all of that shit. The vulnerability side of it that I think is not attended to a lot of the time

Because things are just, and I get it because, you know, the business I'm in is I'm not a documentarian. It's artifice, right? It is, you know, but within that, please God, hopefully we're getting to some truth. Yes. And I think you can get to a really great truth through fiction, obviously. Otherwise, people wouldn't read novels or go to the theatre or whatever. I think you can get to a great truth when it's done well that you can't get anywhere else, maybe even a documentary, you know. I realised that I've gone off on a tangent for many minutes already

and could carry on like this quite happily. But I have to ask you a question about seven dials. Otherwise, I get into trouble. So you play in Spector Battle. Now, was that enjoyable? Battle was very enjoyable. I didn't know of battle before. Neither.

Because I'm not an Agatha Christie expert at all. And I read the script and I thought it's a really, really good, smart adaptation, modern without being too an acronistic, which I think is always the trade-off, I think, that you have, when you have period stuff. How do we make this appeal to 2025? Oh, by ruining everything that made it good about 100 years ago. You think a few things, I suppose, as an actor.

Can I do it? Is it something I've done before? Am I going to enjoy it? Who's in it? You know, like, who am I going to be playing with? And all the parts felt right. Okay, let's get on to your failure. So your first failure is doing badly in your GCSEs.

Yeah, that was a surprise to me at the time. Because I've never been academic. It will amaze you to hear. Well, it does surprise me. No, I'm not an academic person at all. At all. I'm interested in stuff and I'm not thick. But I'm curious about things.

But no, that wasn't my strength at all. Because I was a smart ass and I was lazy. I was smart ass and lazy and easily distracted. So that was not going to point to. It's Oxbridge for Martin. It just wasn't going to happen, you know. Not only was it not Oxbridge, it wasn't even history, a good market history at GC.

Now, I love history. I'm fascinated by history. I thought, because, you know, I left school in 88, right? So a C and above was a good pass, you know. I didn't even pass art, and I was good at art, I thought. I mean, I can draw pretty well. So, yeah, anything above a C and above is what counts. I got a C in a B in English.

English language and English literature, or my mum would have told me about it. And I've said the same thing to my. I said the same thing as my kids. You don't pass English. I've got nothing to say, you are English. You live in England, right? There are people. You haven't actually said that to your kids, have you?

Yeah, of course I have. Of course I have. There is no excuse. You live in two houses full of books, right? You have two parents who talk to you a lot, right? We engage in conversation. If you can't pass English, that's really, it's just lazy. That's bad news.

It's bad news. Okay. There are kids you go to school with from the other side of the world whose parents got here 15 minutes ago who speak a completely different language who have just passed English. You can pass English. What do you think that's out of order? I mean, it's not for me to say much. No, it's just for the...

Yeah, again, and anyone who does think it's out of order, that's your problem. No, you don't have to pass English, dolly. just because it's the only language. How old are your kids now? 20 and 17. Oh, so they passed English? Yeah, they did, yeah. Has to a joy of relief.

And Ari, that's the only other one I got. Okay. I passed R.E. Because I was interested in that. And you were raised Catholic? Yeah. Yeah. So I found all that interesting.

So the things I, you know, the things that I passed, I found, I was interested in. I liked English and I liked Ari. But the things I liked history, I liked that. Didn't pass them. Sort of thought I'd pass geography. didn't pass that. I knew I wasn't going to pass physics or

I knew I wasn't going to pass that. And how did you feel when you got the results? Disappointed. Because I thought, that's a Swiss. Surely I've done better than that. And I hadn't. I hadn't. And I knew part of it you can account for because you think,

well, I'm lazy. I knew that about myself. And I knew I was unmotivated about some things. I knew I wasn't academically a striver. But I suppose I just thought Yeah but I'm good at that So shouldn't that just sort of Happen't they just give me a GCSE

Because look at that picture of Margaret Thatcher I did Yeah Next to a picture of Hitler With the dates Did you do that for your art GCSE? Yeah I think I did yeah Edgy Very edgy

Yes And my art teacher said Mr Lemke He said I remember like to be a picture Margaret Thatcher Adolf Hitler I think

1987 1937 that was I don't know that was for my exam but that was part of my cause I'm just that's the sort of shit

I like to do yeah like so you know did the dates you decide yeah you be the judge yeah

so I did that and Mr. Lemkin went because he saw me drawing Hitler he was like that's not very nice it's not meant to

interrogate I'm interrogating the viewer The viewer All of the viewers who came to my exhibition I'm really interested by your childhood it will not surprise you to hear

so youngest of five Yeah I was raised first by my dad and then by my mum and stepdad And not in, I was born in Hampshire Okay But I grew up mainly I left Hampshire fairly quickly

And was then sort of Suburbs Tell me about your mum My mum was, I think, a really fascinating, wonderful person. It's called Philomena. Filomena Rita Norris was her maiden name. And she was one of 14.

Wow. She was a massive influence on my life. I really, really loved my mom a lot. And I think being the youngest as well, I was the youngest by six years. So I definitely had a lot of... So I was the last one at home for a while. everyone else left home

you know reasonably like earlier than people do nowadays so I had a real bond with my mum fantastic bond with my mum my dad died when I was 10 I'm sorry thank you so I never you know

I wish I had got to more time obviously you wish you had more time with everybody but looking back now I was like I was a baby when he died you know like it was nothing but I'd remember him very well and it was like we had a relationship

but I mean that didn't mean I was able to be close to my mum I was just I just was close to my mum yeah she was a very very loving very um uh adored her kids and again going back to what was saying earlier on about the breeders side of things

um I don't I'm pretty sure I was no one ever laid a hand on me as a kid no one ever laid a finger on me and they didn't need to because if that cup went down like that, be like, okay. Let's pay attention now, you know. We definitely weren't coddled. We were demonstrably loved

and demonstrably fucking bolloped when the need arose. I read somewhere that, as you mentioned, your dad died when you were 10, but it took you a few years to process it. Yeah, I think it did. I remember going to the cinema to see Shirley Valentine

with my first girlfriend Michaela in Teddington went to see the cinema probably in Kingston and um Vental Centre Yeah you know it

I used to waitress there Did you? Yeah That's so funny Yeah because I was near there Yeah we went to see it and you know

Shirela Valentine which I loved RIP Pauline Collins and in the credits there was I can't remember a crew member named Jeffrey Freeman

which is my dad's name and something just slightly clicked in me. It was like, oh yeah, I've not really, and I was like 17, 18 then. And I think I hadn't really dealt with it, is the cliche, I guess, but, because I think when I was 10, I didn't want to be pitied. Do you know, I didn't, because I was already, I was in and out of hospital for various things as well, dodgy hip, asthma, you know, I was a kind of sickly kid. And, and I was little, right? So, you know, I'm not a big person. So I was little Martin.

whose dad just died, whose parents were divorced, and that was relatively rare at that time. I'm not about in other schools. In Catholic schools, it was pretty rare for your parents not to be together. And his dad's dad, I didn't want to be anyone's mascot or token. So I think I would probably just, yeah, just go on, let's kick a ball about and get on with it, you know. And so it probably wasn't until a few years later,

I was like, that's actually quite a big deal. And I'm allowed to think it's a big deal, yeah. Do you think all of that had any impact on your GCSEs and how much or not? No, I don't think so. I mean, other than I suppose it's impossible to say whether, no, I'm pretty sure it didn't. My mum and dad had split up when I was very young. So I'd had a stepdad for a long time. We had a stable, you know, we had a family life.

And even though I never called my stepdad, my dad, you know, he was always James, but he was a parental figure. secondary to my mum because she was the one who was doing the main stuff, but, you know, James was a good step-parent. I think that was the thing. It was not for me, like the thing of academic excellence. The thing was, not even excellence, just not good. That was a surprise to me. And that's why I kind of count that as a bit of a failure.

Yeah. Because if someone said, but, mind, you're not an astronaut. It's like, well, no, of course I'm not an astronaut. But I did think I would do better at that stage. I guess it, well, I suppose it coloured things in it. Then I went to Brooklyn's College in Weybridge, right, to resit GCS, to get enough GCSEs to do drama A level. So for a year, I resat GCSEs to get enough to, because by that time I thought I want to be an actor. In the interim, I'd found out that I don't really want to do a drama A level because that's also academic.

I like reading plays and I can write about them, but I'd rather be doing it. So in the interim, I found out I wanted to be a, or to do a beat tech in performing arts. You get to devise, you get to, you know, act, you get to write, learn how to do the lighting board, the soundboard, your choreographs. It was a much more doing thing than a sort of observing thing. What was the first part that you played that you really felt, this is going to be meaner, like this is my life? It was, I can, I know it absolutely. It was in the autumn of 1988. I was in a youth theatre group in Teddington and we used to perform at Hampton Court

theatre which was a tiny little theatre right by near Hampton Court Palace. There was a weird sort of like an almost fairy tale theatre that existed there that you get 100 people in. It was a play called The Roses of Iham which was about a true event that happened at a Derbyshire village. called Eam, where during the plague of 1665, in order to stop the plague from spreading, obviously it was spreading like wildfire, it's spreading like the plague. It was. And then there was a fire the year after. Exactly.

So everything was fine. They made a selfless decision to kind of lock themselves in, to sort of, well, to do a lockdown, really, quarantine themselves so that it wouldn't spread anywhere else, which meant an awful a lot of people died in Eam. I think of a heroic tale, but I played a character called The Bedlam, a young lad who wasn't quite right, let's say, I suppose. So physically and emotionally, I was able to tap into something that, for some reason, I found, I don't say I found it easy, but I found, but it felt comfortable.

Because I'd had a sort of, you know, I'd had a dodgy leg as a kid, so I sort of used that. my sister Laura had just had a baby and I sort of at my niece Abby and she and so I kind of used that as well but it wasn't you know it's not like I'm going to give a De Niro like process to my youth theatre

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Your second failure, I'm so glad that you're going to talk about this, is comparing yourself when you were younger to where your heroes were at that stage. And I just think it's such a human sensation that we are not doing as well as in any walk of life. So what stage are we talking about here in your 20s or 30s? Oh, definitely, I mean, teens and 20s. Because again, my first and still favourite art form is music and records.

So that's my favourite thing and has been since I was five. the problem being that if you're comparing yourself to your favorite sort of record makers, you're fucked. Because everybody post-1955 anyway, and probably even if you're including Mozart, pretty young, you know, that stuff happens when people are young a lot of the time, most of the time. There's not many rock and rollers who come out. I'm 50 and I've just made my first, it's a young man's or woman's game, right? So by the time I left drama school at 23, that is the age George.

Harrison was when they were recording Sergeant Pepper. So I was like, fuck, I've got to get a move on. And as it as it came down to my late 20s and 30, I'm like, Marvin Gaye was like 32 when he made what's going on. He'd already been a staff at, you know, eight or nine years. So like there's always this countdown, this clock.

And I sort of enjoyed it because I knew I couldn't compete with it. But it was definitely there. Like I should be get, I should get a move on. I mean, Michael Kane is a case in point because I think he did Zulu at 30. So that was like, and again, but in acting terms, 30 is still sort of young. It's not rock and roll. Yeah.

Acting and rock and roll, whatever people say is the new rock and roll. It isn't the new rock and roll. Rock and roll is it. That's the only thing. Other stuff, you can be a little bit older and still be considered young, especially if you look young. So the office came out when I was 29. So I just made the cut. It doesn't mean anything cosmically at all.

But to me, in my little stupid head meant something. Yes. And did you compare yourself to actors? the contemporaneous actors. I think I'm sure I did and I'm sure I do, if I'm being honest. Oh, yeah, please be honest. I'm not going to name names. You don't have to name them.

I'm not going to name names. But do you have a person who's like, oh, him again? No, I have people. It's plural. I do know that comparing stuff in a field which is only opinion, it's not football. It's not we scored more goals in you, so we won. It's only opinion and taste, right? So, you know, like of the moment, you know, sort of voting for BAFTA films, then you vote for the Academy films.

This is, we know this is not quantifiable. It's only what I like or what I don't like, you know. It's a fool's game, but you can't help play it, I think, if you are alive. Yes. Do you know what I mean? I think if you're being truly honest, viscerally somewhere in you is going, at the same time, I know I can honestly say there's a list of, there's a lot of, long list of people, let's say, because I'm, you know, I'm not going to get, you know,

Olivia Coleman's part. Because she'd piss me off if I was. She'd annoy me a lot. Because she'd be getting all of them. But there's a long list of, you know, I've said, blokes who, who I think, no problem with you at all. I'm delighted for you. Because I love seeing good things.

I love seeing good people. I love watching people be brilliant. And I like it when you're made not jealous, but envious in that way of, oh, you fucker, well done. I know. The annoying thing is if someone isn't very good, but get us all the recognition. So does that drive you mad? Yeah, it bemuses me, I think, sometimes. But you know what, as I'm saying that, in the same way that people watching this, we'll go, yeah, Martin, you bemused me.

You know, it's only taste. It's meat and poison. You know, some people will think I'm great. Some people will think I'm rubbish, you know, and that's just the way it is. So when I see other people, I think, but how did that, well, yeah, there's someone else behind me going, I think they're brilliant. Okay, the end. Are you more sick of talking about the office or Sherlock? Neither.

To be honest. Good. No, to be honest, neither. Because there was a period, a few years after the office, where I wanted to get away from that every man thing and I wanted to not be Tim from the office for the rest of my life, even though I was amazingly proud of the office. And I was proud of what I did in it. And I think it was one of my favorite things I've ever done. Now I'm completely at peace with it Sherlock I'm completely at peace with

because I think it's a fantastic piece of work Well they were both revolutionary I remember the first time I watched them and I'd never seen anything like that particular thing No true yeah The office I absolutely adore And I just wanted to say that There's sort of no question

But I don't think anything's ever been quite as good as that original season of the office I know what you mean which is a dangerous thing for me to say because I was in it. But I do know what you mean, but I didn't, you know,

I didn't write or direct it. So that's, the credit always goes to the people who did. Yeah, the David Brent's dance, the comic relief dance, brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

Not, but that's not my favourite bit. My favourite bits, all are of myself and only myself. Yes, fair enough. Now, my favourite bits are just, those bits are just true.

I mean, the glances. This sounds really, really pompous. So please go, go with me. It's not, I'm here.

I really respond to truth. I really do. When people aren't lying to me, whether I'm in a theatre or watching a film or TV, I just don't, I know that's not true. You know that's not true. Stop lying. And I don't just mean that's at every stage of every sort of department of whatever is making this thing. It's like every time someone plays an actor, it's like, well, okay, I'll be in my trailer. Fine, but we know that's not true.

It's true this much of the time, this much. And even the people who do that aren't saying it like that. So who are we mocking? Because that person doesn't fucking exist. What I loved about what Ricky did in the office was he had genuine vulnerability and made it really real, really real. I mean, it's heightened at times.

At times it's heightened what we do. But I think our main, you know, what we were all trying to do was to not, you don't see the join. And a lot of people didn't see the join. you know, because we weren't famous. And it was in a time of a lot of, you know, those kind of workplace documentaries. So I know that some people thought it was a real thing.

And God, who's this guy, David Braynor? That's kind of the mission I've been on, even before the office. Even when I was a younger actor in theatre, I was like, I want to be absolutely as real as possible. Or what's the point? Yeah. Unless you're doing something heightened and stylized, I get that and I can love that. I really love that. But even within that, you know, if I'm not connecting to you as a human being, I don't care.

I literally don't care. So why would I want to give the audience that? Do you ever watch The Office back? And if so, what's it like seeing yourself as a 29-year-old? I like the show so much. It's not, I don't watch it all the time. But for instance, my son and my son's generation really love it. I like the show so much I'm able to not go, oh, God.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I just think, no, it's a good, it's a good show and I'm in it. brilliant. I'm in a good show and that's all I've ever wanted to be in. That's worth its weight in gold, you know, to be part of something that you and other people will say, I really love that show you did 25 years. Like, brilliant. That's fantastic. You know, like if you can do, if you told me when I was 19 that, you know, a tenth of the things that have happened would have happened, I would have been, you know, I would have thought you were probably making it up. It is amazing actually because

sometimes I ask people when they're recognised in the street, what do strangers say? But you've got so many different elements to your career that people, I imagine, talk to you about. What is the most common thing that comes up? Is it the office? Is it Sherlock? Is it The Hobbit? It does vary. I mean, the office still a lot of the time, which is, again, I really like it. I really like that. And I will definitely admit for a little while, I was like, I want to shake this off. because you don't want to be pinned. No one wants to be boxed in, you know. I like that thing you do. Now do it forever and don't do anything else, you know.

You don't want that. But I love that now. I love when people talk about Sherlock. I love it when people talk about nativity. You know, nativity is one of the things that is genuinely most quoted to me. And I am cool with that. That's one of my favorite films that I've done. It's a great family film, brilliant music.

Truly heartwarming without being too schmaltzy. but actually life affirming. When Black Panther came out, I mean, I was stopped all the time by people who said, you know, I went to see that film six times. So to be part of that as well was an immense joy.

Now it's just more like, I'm just a person, as in Martin Freeman, as opposed to Martin Freeman from the whatever. Yes. But when you are Martin Freeman from the whatever, when it first happens, like, wow, brilliant.

And then it starts, if you are in my body, it starts to feel a bit weird. I really wish I could be better at that to this day. But then I wonder if that would make me a sociopath, I don't know. You know, if I'm on the way to a red carpet, say, and as you get closer, you can start to hear the noise and the flashlight, you know, and the sort of mania that it is, that it can be,

you know, not everything I do is greeted with mania, that's true. But the things that you're part of that are, you know, big in any way, I would love to be able to go, this is amazing. But before I can even think that, my body is telling me something different. Which is, this is not natural. This is not. What's the equivalent of this in early Homo sapiens terms? You know what I mean?

Who was I in the village 3,000 years ago? You know, this didn't, I don't think it's supposed to exist sort of thing, you know. Do you think it's because it feels untruthful, or do you think it feels scary? Both, I think. I think sometimes it's just disingenuous, because I'm not an idiot. I know when people are not actually interested, but they're just performing a function. But it's just as scary to know that some people do mean it. Because obviously, some people mean it too much.

and that's also a bit alarming because you think I don't think you should I mean God bless you but I don't think you should be putting this much store by something that someone else who you don't know is doing I get it

because I do get being a fan of people I'm a fan of people but yeah it doesn't make it any easier I think and I see other people I see other people looking like they're handling it quite well

and I think that must be nice That must be nice to be able to just to wear it lightly. And I think I wear it lightly in some situations. But when it's a wall of noise, light and kind of a mini mania, that's not healthy. Mania in any form is not healthy. I mean, like, that's not. Oh, it's a good mania.

It's not. It's bad. As soon as you said mania, that's, you know. And again, I'm not comparing myself. It's not like that's not. I'm the biggest star in the world. But as soon as you have anything that's like that, the first couple of times it's really fascinating.

And you do think, this is lovely. Red carpet, people want my autograph? You know, that's how old I am. Very quickly for me, it was like, yeah. And I don't, you know, it's either because that's just objectively true or the way my brain, my brain is never going to accept an easy ride for anything for more than 10 minutes before it starts to sabotage. This week on lipstick on the rim, we sat down with the one and only Rachel Zoe.

And wow, this episode is a ride. We talked about everything, motherhood, divorce, finding herself again, joining real housewives literally overnight. And then she said this. Can I tell you a true story? In COVID, in the darkness of COVID, I had a cat eye every single day where nobody saw me. Not one soul. And when I had COVID, not even my ex-husband saw me or my children. And you know what I did?

I went into my bathroom. I did a black liquid liner put on lashes, black liner in the water line, a full lip, did my hair, and sat in my bed. And that is what I did. And I looked at myself and I said, you are not a well person. I said, are you fucking okay? You have 104 fever. You are like, you are like contagion right now. If you love fashion, beauty or bravo, this Rachel's Owe episode is a must. It's out now. Well, talking about autographs brings us onto your final failure, I think, which is being pretty useless at technology. Yeah, not great with that. And the old smart vote. Well, you and I are similar

ages. And so we... 28. We grew up, Alan. But then transition to digital. Yeah. And it is a unique perspective. And I'm so glad I had the childhood that I did where I was bored and therefore I had to rely on my imagination. I don't get why you ever have to explain that to anybody. Like the things that we cherish and love, whether it's punk, rock and roll, cinema, jazz, all came out of people going, what fuck shall I do that?

They couldn't be passengers in something. Yeah. They weren't just going along on a track. Avalator because somewhere was taking with that shit. He's swiping. He's doing it for a list of listeners. I'm swiping. I haven't just had a seizure.

But I don't think even Stephen Frye or people who are early adopters of things, I think, would not be able to argue that there is a great deal of value in making a child bored. Seriously, man. How else you're going to paint or make up a store? or learn a trade or learn a skill. If you're literally mouth a gape looking at a fucking script like... No, and I'm totally...

Of course, yeah, is it partly because I'm getting older? Of course it is. I'd love someone to say I'm wrong. Am I objectively wrong? Nope. And when I come to power, I will make sure everyone knows it. But is it okay if a child is watching a classic movie on a screen? Of course it is.

Here's why. Because of course it is. And I realised that my granddad would have thought that was moronic as well. You know, like turn the telly off was the thing that we all heard, you know. And I get that as well. You get square eyes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I do you. I get that you don't want to be looking at a screen of it for anything all the time. But you know what? You don't want to be doing anything all. I love reading. If I didn't do anything but read, I'd be a hermit with no social skills and nothing would get done and you couldn't pay the rent. Right. Nothing is something you should be doing all the time. My worry about the phones is that they're so ubiquitous for people of our age who should know better and for kids who, of course, their brains aren't finished, they don't fucking know better. So it is incumbent on us to go to do something about it, you know. Or at least to say, you do realize that you will be thicker. And I 100% believe that. 100%. And you probably can't say thick, but I'm saying. What's the most useless you've ever been with technology? Give us an example. You've got a smartphone because it's been buzzing.

Of course I have. And I'm never going to, like I'm not anti-technology. Yeah, no, that wasn't accusatory. Yeah, I'm really glad clever people did it and carry on doing it. I just don't want to be a slave to it. When someone says, yeah, if you just cut and paste that, I'm like, no. I don't know. And the thing is, people have said to me, and they're probably right,

Mike, you can do it. You're just not interested in it. And so that's probably their web going, sort yourself out. You can do it. You're not a moron. But I remember my school did computer studies, and I really thought, this is not going to catch on. I thought, this is not going to, why would I be doing this? This is not as fun as football, records, girls, any, like, what nerd would fucking spend all?

And then I'm in the world of, I'm in nerd world and I'm now behind. Have you ever used chatch EBT? To literally just on my phone to be horrified by. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But no. No.

And I, it's not because I don't have a hot take on it on AI because I'm not Stephen Pinker and I'm not someone else who's, I haven't read loads about it. I haven't studied it a great deal. My instinct is, oh, let's watch this. be very, very mindful of it because I don't want anything to replace humans. Oh, let's watch this. Let's watch this, yeah.

Martin Freeman on air. And I think in 25 years, that'll be the quote. There you go. Freeman told us, we should have watched this. The voice in the coal mine. I don't want to be, because the thing is I'm not an earlier doctor of technology and that doesn't, and I think I know people who are and they're all the smarter for it.

But I'm not massively anti or massively pro. is the truth of it. I don't feel well informed enough. I do feel well informed enough to go, I know it's making people lazier because I see it and I know it because people are using that chat chippy T instead of writing their essay or instead of coming with an informed opinion, it's just or doing a drawing or spending time doing something, which is part of the reason for being a human on earth, is to apply yourself to a project. When you don't have to do that, Again, really good luck with where this is going to take. Let me know how it goes.

Let me know how it goes. Because of course there will be good things about it. But there's no – nothing is without a trade-off, is it? There's no advance without someone losing out. Yes. And the thing that makes us unique as humans is the feeling and the emotion and the yearning and the disappointment and the discomfort. are all things that AI doesn't have.

Presumably, yeah. One hopes. I don't know in 20 years. I don't know. Because the way people I hear people talk about it is that it will be able to do literally everything we can do. And that doesn't fill me with glee. It just doesn't. No.

You know, because I think there's a difference between the invention of the spinning Jenny, where, you know, less people have to have their arms cut off in, you know, in factories or whatever. Great. Okay. But that is also, there's always a trade-off, you know, because someone else has lost something from that, you know. like labour or work or income. And that's been the story of human beings. But this, but no one ever said, you know,

and the printing press is going to be able to do every single thing we can do and replace all our job. No one ever said that. Yes. And now with AI, I'm like, gosh, Christ, all right. I just, I don't want to be really doom laden about it, but I also don't see why some people are just throwing parties about it. And like, yeah, just giving themselves over to our new overlords.

Listen, hopefully we'll be dead. Let's end on that note. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. People are saying it's coming really quickly. I know it's coming so quickly. I don't know what to do about it. That's why I'm in a statement. I'm staying out of it.

All right. I've already said too much. Why? I've already said too much because I can't say this enough. I don't know what I'm talking about. No. Before we get off on another tangent, because I've really loved speaking to you.

And I hope you can feel that I'm being truthful. I haven't liked it. But I can tolerate it. Thank you so much. No, no. Me too. Me too. And I would love to end on an anecdote about Michael Kane.

Because you have mentioned how much of a hero he's been for you and you got to meet him. And what happened when you met him? Well, I've met him twice. The first time I met him was at an event. And Edgar Wright, the film director and someone I've worked with a few times, lovely man, Edgar. I was sitting over here with some lovely people. I was very, very aware that over there was Michael Kane. and Edgar

nicely said Martin, come meet Michael and I kind of came to sat down and you know I put my hand out and said

I'm Michael and he went no, I'm Michael your mask and it's like that's how I blew it I got I felt quite emotional

I bet yeah I did and I've said this to him I met him a few years later and I was able to talk to him for five or ten minutes and it was really nice

but but you know he is one of the reasons I'm doing it. So for people who don't like me, blame Michael Cain. But for better or worse, he's definitely one of the reasons I'm doing it. Before I knew I wanted to be an actor, I think he planted a seed in a very young Martin. Just something about his presence was very important to me, yeah.

What do you think it was about his presence? I don't know whether it might have been ordinariness. I don't know. Yes. Because the thing is, he's extraordinary. In his street, there weren't 50 Michael. they just weren't 50 Michael Keynes with that presence

and that emotional intelligence and the light in the eyes and all that, they just weren't. But what I didn't, I think when I was nine, maybe when I first saw him, or I was told,

oh, you know, that's Michael Kane. There was something about him that I thought, all right, because in Slooth, which was the film that I first got to know him in, he's with Lawrence Olivier,

who is a different animal to Michael Kane, a brilliant and different animal. Maybe I just, I probably, I didn't know that you could be an actor like that, you know, because he just looks like, he looks and sounds like we do. It's just sort of, he's a normal bloke. As a, he wasn't, he wasn't an actor. He wasn't an actor. It was believability. Yeah. And, and, you know, Lawrence Livia is obviously a fantastic beast. But Michael Kane just was cut from a different cloth. Well, I'm grateful to Michael Kane for the presence of Martin Freeman. Thank you very much. On our screens and in this podcast, DJ. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening and watching.

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