How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Mel B - ‘I was a Spice Girl shouting about girl power, but I was girl powerless.’

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

TW: coercive / controlling relationships Mel B has a story that everyone needs to hear. It’s a story of resilience in the face of severe adversity - and how we can conquer our biggest fears if we put our minds to it. Melanie was in a coercively controlling and abusive relationship for a decade. After finding the courage to leave, she dealt with years of isolation, post-traumatic stress disorder and a loss of confidence. She also had to build her way back from bankruptcy to financial independence. In this - her most open interview yet - Melanie tells the story of how a mixed-race kid from a council estate in Leeds who was once rejected from a Sound of Music audition for being ‘too Black’ became a global superstar, lost it all, then worked to gain it all back. I am so incredibly grateful to Melanie for speaking with such honesty and sheer courage about what she went through. It will help countless other survivors. And as always, I’d LOVE to hear about your failures. Every week, my guest and I will choose a selection to read out and answer on our special subscription offering, Failing with Friends. We’ll endeavour to give you advice, wisdom, some laughs and much, much more. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Manager: Lily Hambly Studio Engineer: Gulli Lawrence-Tickle Mix Engineer: Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance.

Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, author and broadcaster Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we flip the traditional interview format on its head, celebrating failure rather than success. Because what we learn from the former is often far more important than anything that comes from the latter. It's how we respond to failure that defines our character and helps us grow.

respond to failure that defines our character and helps us grow. Every episode, I ask a very special guest to discuss three failures and how they emerged on the other side to be the person we see today. Before we get into my interview with Mel B, I'm excited to tell you that you can join me afterwards at Failing With Friends, my subscriber series, where I continue my conversation with her. This week, Melanie and I go through failures to communicate with flirty friends and building confidence when getting back to work after having kids. I can't wait for you to join us. And I'd love to hear from you. If you'd like to get in touch, follow the link in the podcast notes. When Melanie Brown was 18, her mum showed her an advert from the stage newspaper asking for streetwise, outgoing, ambitious, dedicated girls to audition for an all-female pop act.

She answered the advert and the rest is history. The Spice Girls became the best-selling female pop group of all time, shifting over 100 million records worldwide and launching the girl power movement. Mel B, or Scary Spice as she became known, went on to forge a solo career and then established herself as a TV personality and talent show judge. She came second in Dancing With The Stars in 2007, judged the UK X Factor

and has just announced her return to America's Got Talent. But it's her personal life that over recent years has made headlines. In her 2018 memoir, Brutally Honest, recently re-released with Extra Chapters, she revealed her second marriage had been emotionally and physically abusive. Her bravery in speaking openly about the 10 years of coercive control she experienced has been a revelation for many other survivors and has done much to raise public awareness of the issue. She is now a patron of the domestic violence charity Women's Aid and has been awarded an MBE for her work. and has been awarded an MBE for her work.

Silence and secrecy just add to our burdens, Brown writes. It's hard when you are proud, when you are frightened, when there are expectations on you to not rock the boat, but we need to be able to say, I'm in trouble, I need help. Melanie Brown, welcome to How to Fail. God, I haven't got any words now. I was like, wow. She's talking about me?

Yes, she is. That's you and what an incredible person you are. I'm grateful to you for so many reasons. I'm grateful to you for being a Spice Girl and for introducing the teenage me to girl power. I'm grateful to you for writing this astonishing memoir. I can't even imagine the courage it took. And I have not experienced the depths of what you lived through, but I do have experience of coercive control. And I know how difficult it is to put words to it. Yeah. And even the word coercive control,

it was so hard for me to wrap my head around. What does that mean? I'm a bit dyslexic. So I was like, I can't even read that properly. But then when I found out it became the law in 2015, and you can actually, you know, file a complaint against your abuser and hopefully it will see the light of day. I was like, right, we are moving in the right direction. But that was 2015 and I was still in my then 10-year very abusive marriage, which when I talk about it, I didn't realise there was such an epidemic going on. I thought bringing this book out in 2018 was going to end my career because for a start, nobody wanted to publish it

because the topic was too like down and dirty and gritty and taboo-ish. And I actually wanted to pull it before it even got released. And it was only because my daughter, who was then, gosh, 19, and Louise who helped me write the book were like, well, just think about it. If you're going to be talking about this, maybe you can help somebody else. So by releasing releasing this book you could be helping a lot of other people and I was like right if if it's for other people yes but that book was for me because I didn't understand what had gone on in those 10 years I knew it wasn't right I knew I knew it left me fried as in I was living on um flight or fight I knew because of the obvious bruises. And then when I left, I was financially abused.

And the reason why I've re-released it with three new extra chapters is because in between 2018 and 2024, a lot has happened. You know, everybody thinks when you leave an abusive relationship, well, well done for getting out for a start because not all of us survive it you don't realize then you have to start a new journey which is putting your you as a person and your life and your kids and amending relationships with people that have been isolated from you you have to work on that and that's not easy it's not easy staying in an abusive relationship clearly but it's also not easy

coming out of it and I wanted to be able to show survivors like me that you can do it and it is going to be up and down but this is the warning signs and and hopefully a bit of a guide on how to deal with it because you are left traumatized and I'm a spice girl and I shout about girl power yet I was in 2018 girl powerless thinking what where have the last 10 years gone why has this person got so much control I can't even leave if I want to leave so it's been a bit of a roller coaster one of the things that I saw on your Instagram recently is that you have been able to buy a house. I know. And that has been something because you left that marriage with $936 in your bank account, I think your book said. Yeah, with nothing.

With nothing. No house, no properties, no cars, no furniture, no credit card, no nothing. So I had to move back into my mum's house. She's got a little bungalow in Leeds. So I was doing Wembley Stadium with the Spice Girls in 2019 performing in front of thousands of people in my element back with my girls and then going home to Leeds in my mum's spare bedroom with my kids and my dog going this is my life and I love it now because I know what I'm coming home to, my mum and my dogs, and it's not my house and I'm

going to have to start from scratch. Where do I start? You know, because I doubted myself. I had no confidence. Luckily, the Spice Girls tour came around at the perfect time. But what led me to that place was, unfortunately, if it wasn't for my dad dying, I don't know if I would have left that marriage because I didn't have the strength to do it. I tried to do it six or seven times within those 10 years, but I always got pulled back, whether it be through blackmail or the fact that I can't leave without my kids. So I did try. And it wasn't until my dad died, him taking his last breath. I promised my dad in Leeds because he died in Leeds. dad died him taking his last breath did I promise my dad in Leeds because he died in Leeds I said when I get back to LA I'm going to leave that abuser and he took his last breath so I was like well I don't even know if I would have had the strength to do it myself my dad gave me that strength and now I'm giving myself strength through speaking to other survivors from being involved in women's aid being patron and being able to educate not just myself but

kids about what the warning signs look like and how I get to speak in parliament and it's something that is you know every time I do talk about it it does still take me back there but I think well you have to talk about it because it's an epidemic that's going nowhere. Still, one woman a week gets killed by their partner in this country. It's worse in America. So it's not going anywhere unless we not just talk about it, but we do something about it. We rebuild the justice system to be more supportive, even just to know that you are being abused because I didn't know how badly abused I had been. being abused because I didn't know how badly abused I had been. Obviously, there's the physical side of it, but the emotional side and the trauma. And thank God in this country, we have statute of limitations. So there's no timeframe on when you can report that. In the States, you have three

years. And if you're not ready to report it in three years, that time is gone. Because that's one of the things that really strikes me as so courageous. Writing this book, were you scared about putting that out there and your ex reading it and being in touch? Well, he's in touch anyway, because an abuser on some levels don't stop. And especially when you have a child with them which I do. I wasn't scared for me necessarily I was scared that I wasn't going to be able to provide for my family anymore because I was lying for 10 years I was lying to my co-workers I was lying to the Spice Girls I was lying to Simon Cowell because my work was my saviour because that was the one place where he couldn't get me but when I went home it was a different story yet I was so ashamed and I felt riddled with guilt that how can I nobody's going to believe me I haven't been to the doctors because I'm too scared to even

tell the doctor because I can cover the bruises I can cover it with makeup makeup and, you know, I'm girl power. I can't let the side down. But it was almost like a relief to get my story out, but also terrifying at the same time. And what came back at me was probably, for me, even more terrifying than my career being ended. It was the fact that I was believed. It's true then. I know I have been abused.

It's such a psychological thing. Yeah, interesting. And then when I went to my first refuge in Leeds as patron of women's aid, I sat with these women and I just felt so at home because I don't know if you know much about abuse, but basically abusers do the same thing

at the same time, no matter who they're abusing. They come in like Mr. Wonderful or Mrs. Wonderful and you can't believe your eyes that this person is just everything and more that you've ever wished for. You are just in shock and you are love bombed. You are just crazy head over heels. And, you know, I was saying the other day, it's not like you wake up and go, oh, I think I want to date an abuser. No, but what an abuser does is they come and find you. So they make sure that you are going to date them. And I just had Angel.

So I was very vulnerable. Yeah. And Angel is your daughter with Eddie Murphy, who you describe in Briefly Honest as the love of your life. And I think you do such a beautiful job of explaining that. Well, me and Eddie went through a beautiful love affair but then Angel was born and there was things that was said on his part of my part it became a media frenzy and I was adamant listen you have denied that you're the father I mean it goes on and on and on but basically basically Angel was made with love and Eddie is very much part of Angel's life. And that is happy in that respect.

You said in an interview in 2023 that you wouldn't call the police. Is that still the case? No, because I'm now working alongside the police, actually. And they are fully taking it on board that when they get called out to a domestic violence situation, that they're now going to be,

they're now going to have themselves educated. Because if you turn up, I mean, the police have said that if they turn up at a domestic violence situation that they're now going to be they're now going to have themselves educated because if you turn up I mean the police have said that they turn up at a domestic violence situation sometimes the abuser's so skilled that the abuser ends up not being the one that gets taken away in handcuffs yeah because the the survivor is so embarrassed and so worried about what's going to happen when that door slams that she or he will do anything just to make it go away when the initial thought is this person's going to kill me horrendous and we will talk more about it before we get on to your failures i hope you'll indulge me by answering a couple of questions about the spice girls of course i will it's my favorite topic

because um i was telling you before we started recording that you're my third spice girl my ambition is to get all five of you so if you could put in a good word so who do you have left you have got victoria and emma emma and i did actually sit next to victoria at lunch and she said she'd come on the podcast well then you have to hold her to it when i see you next i'll tell her i will and i'll tell you it's very decadent in here so she'll love it yes thank you um loved her love you all but you were so formative for so many women like me and it's it's so weird now to think of you as women but you are you've all aged in this really extraordinary you haven't aged a jot like I still wear the same thing for anyone listening to this podcast rather than watching

on YouTube you are wearing amazing silver boots and this fake fur jacket. Do you think that the five of you have changed fundamentally as characters as you've grown older, or do you think you're still the same? I think we're still the same. And I just want to be clear, when those names got given to us, it was by, I think it was a lazy journalist from some teeny bopper magazine and he couldn't be bothered to remember our full names. So he was like, well, that one looks a bit scary because she's already snatched my notes off her

and she's got all, me and I've got all this crazy hair and I've always been, I've got leopard print nails. So he just named us off the rack like that. And we were all like, oh God, I quite like my name. It's funny because to this day Emma loves pink and if she can have our way she'd put her hair in ponytails Mel C will never get out of a tracksuit and she always has a hair in a ponytail Victoria's very sleek and elegant Geri she's gone through a bit of a change but she's still that vivacious union jack girl underneath her being the lady of the man i let me tell you so we're all exactly

the same which is lovely considering we started when we were 17 18 19 and we're now 48 49 50 how do you feel about scary spice now though because i feel like you wouldn't be called that now because well i think now a bit too politically. I've calmed down in these last few years. Before, if you was to interview me, I'd be like, show me your questions. I'd be the protector of the group that comes in there and go, hold on a minute. And that can be seen as maybe being a bit too northern or maybe being a bit too feisty or scary. So that name was given and I love it just for the plain fact that I'm a bit scary. I've got larger than large hair, larger than life.

Yeah. And that's just me. Well, in this day and age, somebody would have taken offence by that, but I don't take offence by it. Whether you're black, white, there's a bit of scary in all of us. Peyton, it's happening. You're finally being recognised for being very online. It's about damn time.

I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This.

As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce

from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis,

historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

Love that. Let's get on to your first failure, because it's sort of linked to what we've just been discussing which is a failed audition for being a von trap child in a production of the sound of music yeah i remember this very very well i got raised in a household my dad's black from the west indies from nevis my mum's white born and raised up north in leeds um so they're a mixed couple which back in those days, there was a lot of stigma attached to that. There was a lot of NF, National Fronts, for example.

My mum used to have to hand me to my dad on the bus so that he wouldn't get beaten up for being black and black with a white woman. So I got brought up with a very even outlook. I'm not black, I'm not white, I'm mixed. And I love that because I had friends before at school that were mixed and I couldn't understand why they just call themselves black or just call themselves just white. I'd be like, but you're mixed. That's your mum and your dad. You've got the best of both worlds. Just quickly, what do you think of the term biracial? I don't get it. Okay. I don't get

it and I don't appreciate it. Good to know. Yeah. Because some people hate being called mixed. It used to really annoy me that when I used to fill out the passport form, it would be black, white or other. Now it's black, white, mixed with this, mixed with that, this and that. And I think, no, I'm just mixed. And I'm proud of that. So my mother got me into dance class it was like 10p for me to go for an hour I think it was like three times a week so and because I had lots of energy my mom was like oh god give me a break she's come on from school she's done her homework I'll put her in dance class down the street so I became obsessed with just performing and so there was an audition that a few of my friends were going to and it was for the Von Trapp family. And my mum, in a very, very mum way, tried to explain, you know, you're not

going to get it because you're not white with blonde hair and blue eyes. Not that she said that, and I blocked that out anyway. I was like, no, it's an audition because once they see me, they're going to want me to be part of the stage performance. Finally, she got in the car and drove me and still on the journey there. She's like, Melanie, are you sure you want to do this? Because, you know, and I was like, I am adamant. I am going to go to that audition. I'm going to nail it and I'm going to get the job. Anyway, I didn't get the job because it was far easier back in those days to say,

oh, you're too this, you're too that. Now we can't be as direct and and rightly so but that just goes to show that even though I knew it deep down I didn't care I still wanted to make sure that I went there so they could see me perform regardless of my colour so many things strike me about this story one is your incredible work ethic and that's something that I feel like you've always had yeah Yeah, my mum and dad had that. You will just prove yourself. Yeah.

Again and again and again. Yeah. Where do you think that work ethic came from for your mum and your dad? Different places, I imagine. Well, my dad came to England, I think, when he was, was he nine? His grandmother looked after him in Nevis, and that was quite common back in those days. So when he came over, he didn't really know his parents, didn't really fit in in school. So he learned how to weld copper because back in those days, if you learn a trade, you're set for life, really, you always have a job. So I was

raised with my dad doing one week of morning shifts, one week of afternoon shifts, one week of night shifts. And it was a routine. And my dad never missed a day no matter hail rain or snow and he used to he used to ride his bike to work my mum took on an extra job because of the 10p a week dance classes and stuff like that and costumes that she would hand make so I've always known if you you've got to rely on yourself you can't rely on anybody else you've got to make your own money the other thing that strikes me about it is that you do not complain no you get on with it and you don't moan no which is which is many things it's it's it's quite northern just to like generalize i think it is quite northern it's quite showbiz like the show must go on i don't know there's some celebrities that moan about everything yes you're not one of

them i mean it's two schools today i'm not yeah um who are they name them no i can't jerry hallowell no i'm joking but there are moments in bruce the honest where you do talk about the fact that the national front was a presence that you, that you got called horrible names at school. You did get bullied, but what was your response? Well, my mum and dad used to say, for a start, fight your own battles, even though you'd been chased all the way from school to the house, which was, God, about a good 25-minute run. Because back then they didn't know what to call me.

Did they call me half-breed? Did they call me the N-word? And I'd be like, I'm mixed. And then I'd run away because they were trying to call me. Do they call me half breed? Do they call me the N word? And I'd be like, I'm mixed. And then I'd run away because I was trying to get me. But I fought my own battles. So when you got rejected for the Von Trapp family?

I just went, whatever, that's their loss. But I was inside, I was crushed. I went to a lot of auditions and I'm thankful for that time because literally an audition back in those days, you'd get told, no, too thin, too fat, too dark, too light.

It would be that brutal. So you'd go, oh, OK, then. Well, I'm not going to have an eating disorder because I like my booty. I'm just going to go to another audition. Those rejections taught you a lot about resilience. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's you.

Yeah. I think that's, if you ask anybody from back in those days when they were auditioning, they would all have like rhino skin, hard skin. It is a northern thing. You just pick yourself up and you just keep going. Were the other Spice Girls like that? because we were like the rejects out of all of our different groups of friends. So coming together, you know, that's why we were so strong and we felt such a connection because we were all not hard done by, but we didn't really fit in anywhere, but yet we fitted together even though we were all completely different looking and from completely different backgrounds, really. But, I mean, when I think about it, Gerryi's mum, I mean, she was a cleaner.

Her dad was a car salesman. Victoria's slightly different because she got driven to school in a Rolls Royce, but she still had to work hard. You know, Mel C, single parent, got brought up in Liverpool. So we've all had our, like, not perfect family lives, if you want to call it that.

And you became your chosen family in a way oh 100 yeah and we went through something so special that only the five of us really can know what that feels like because to have such a whirlwind and have so many doors closed like like in our face girl bands are not going to work we're like well why not well surrounded by boy bands right we get it but why why isn't this going to work. We're like, well, why not? Surrounded by boy bands, right? We get it. But why isn't this going to work? So we're going to knock on another door and another door and another door until we find somebody that believes in us. You know, there are so many incredible Spice Girls tracks, but my personal favourite is Holler, which I think is quite underrated.

I loved it. How we used to write is we'd all come in with some kind of a topic or a theme. How we used to write is we'd all come in with some kind of a topic or a theme, but it was always driven by one of our situations or the fact that, you know, we didn't want to be picked on anymore. So we have to make sure it's clear that we are girl supporting girls and not where it goes too much into the fantasy world. It's genuinely us five because we really like each other. Yes, that's so great.

And you're also so good about putting out into the universe the fact that you want a Spice Girls reunion I always say it and it will okay good it will it will no we are actually in talks all five of us I can't say what for do you have a Spice Girls whatsapp group yeah what's it called well there was one that was just the three of us and it was just the four of us now it's the the five of us. Oh, you're back together. That's so great. Yeah, when one leaves, it's like, uh-oh, what's gone on?

What, does sometimes someone just leave the group and they don't say anything? Yeah, more often than not, it's me because I'm getting told off. Why have you said that I'm going to do

your wedding dress? Because you are, Victoria. And then I'll just think, oh, bugger. I'm just going to leave, let them all calm down for a minute. And then I'll rejoin and go, sorry, but not really.

That's amazing. We're like childish with each other. It would just say like Mel B left the group. So going back to your childhood, now that idea of resilience and work served you very well in certain respects. You left home at 16 and you became a dancer in Blackpool. But it wasn't without... But my mum was the one that

encouraged me to do that because I think my mum knew that I just loved it so much and I think she wanted to make sure that I found something that not only was I good at but I enjoyed and then my dad would use it against me so if I didn't do well in my grades, then I wouldn't be able to go to dance class that week. So it worked for everyone. But your dad, as much as you love him still, and as much as he's this extraordinary spiritual presence in your life now, there were some difficult times. Yeah, my dad is ridiculously strict. And because we were living with not very much money. This is how strict my dad was, but it's actually funny when I think about it now.

Sports Day would be coming up. My dad took it that seriously. He'd train me. He'd go, right, you're going to run around this track. And I'm glad that he pushed me. I mean, nowadays it would be called, oh, you've got a really pushy parent. But my dad taught me resilience and taught me strength

and that if you believe in yourself you can do it and as stupid as you know winning the sports day 500 meters he's like yes and I was like yes yeah because it gives you such worth as well and as well it's what people wouldn't it's because I was this little like stickly thing you know but I was a powerhouse because I knew not only would it make my dad happy, I just loved that feeling of failing, but then winning. Maybe I didn't win that race, but I'm going to win the other race. All failure is data acquisition, I always think. Like every mistake, every loss, you can learn something from it. Well, the funny thing is, when you should say that, so I was having a bit of a tiff with Phoenix, who's 24, and she said something along the lines of, well, you can't talk. And she was being quite rude. She was like, three different marriages by three different baby daddies. And I went, hmm, at least I never gave up the belief in love.

Yes. And I never did. Clearly, I never did. Unquenchable spirit yeah and you're engaged now to Rory who sounds wonderful and calm and supportive and kind and was a friend for many years well my cousin's best friend so he was already part of my family which meant there was already that foundation of trust and safety which when you leave an abusive relationship you don't trust anyone you don't even trust yourself you don't trust anyone. You don't even trust yourself. You don't even trust your own opinions. That can take years to build back up.

I'm so happy for you, Melanie. Me too. I think Rory's like relieved. He's like, finally, she said yes after all these years of me going, I'm here. I wanted to talk about your relationship with your dad, Martin, because it leads us onto your second failure in a way. And your second failure is your first marriage. Yes. It was so important to you to try and make it work. Why was it that important?

Well, number one, I was brought up in an era where you don't get divorced. where you don't get divorced. And also living in Leeds, seeing all my friends marry their childhood sweetheart and then live in the same back-to-back house on the same street as their mum and dad, and they're still together for years no matter what. So that, to me, is unbreakable. You can't then go back and go, well, it just didn't work.

To my dad, that was like, well, you make it work. And I remember when my dad walked me down the aisle to, this is Phoenix's dad I'm talking about, so this is like 24 years ago. How old were you? I was 24. Oh, my God, Phoenix better not be getting married anytime soon. I'm sure she'd tell you. I'll go, well, that's what happened to me, see?

So as the church door was opening, I was like, Dad, you meant to say to me you don't have to go through with this. And he looked at me and he said, it's too bloody late now. Everybody's waiting. We're going. Because I'd already made up my mind. I'd already made up my mind, but I was so young and so naive. And I'd come from a spice bubble.

You know, the first person I married was my backing dancer. Before Britney Spears, before J-Lo did it, I did it. Because I thought, well, he must love me. You know, he's my backup dancer that looks similar to me. And I didn't realise that I was really naive and I was highly embarrassed to have it not work, but I stuck at it and it got to a point where it was, I couldn't be in it any longer. I could not. What do you think your early relationship with your dad

taught you subconsciously about your relationship with men romantically? God, that is complex. You see, my dad was a very sergeant major, strong figure, but yet he would do all the shopping and all the cooking. So imagine when I'm a teenager, I'm just starting my period, and my sister, who's five years younger than me, I'm trying to sneak in the pads or whatever into the shopping basket, and my sister's like, Dad, Melanie's put them in the basket. I want some of those.

I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. So my dad was very and somewhat soft and relatable. But you don't break down. You don't cry. You just get on with it and it will make you a stronger, better person. Whereas my mum was emotional but very quiet and very shy. Like you could push in front of my mum in a queue and she wouldn't say anything. Whereas I'd be like, excuse me, there's somebody in front of you and you need to back off.

My dad taught me all about the morally correct stuff. There's no grey. It's either this way or that way. There's no in between. And I was the one that was the in between of the black and white in a weird way. Yes. Yeah, everywhere. As a teenager, your relationship in a weird way. Yes. Yeah, everywhere.

As a teenager, your relationship became a little bit more distant. Yeah. Because he struggled to understand you, I think. Yeah. Well, it wasn't just that. I think because I was developing into this very vivacious, loud, opinionated, very over-the-top, hyperactive woman. He was like, my God. I don't think he knew how to not even rein it in he just didn't know how to handle it and my dad don't forget it's come from a very you know you respect your elders you don't speak back his grandmother raised him so he was

surrounded by strong women we don't complain we get on with it. And if I say something, then that's the way it is. Where I would be like, well, why? And why is that? And why can't I do that? I wanted a reason and I wanted to understand everything to the last detail. I think that drove, well, I know it drove my mum and dad crazy. And then when they had my sister and she was all calm,

first of all, they thought there was something a bit off with me because I was always into everything. And then my sister came along, they were like, is this the normal child? Because she's really quiet and she happily plays by herself, whereas I was a handful. And now when I read about like suicide amongst teenagers, I was that statistic where I didn't think anybody really understood me but I understood myself you write in the book about an attempted overdose when you were 14 yeah so was that in that period of time when you felt like you didn't quite fit in in your own family didn't fit in because my parents were not very they didn't talk about feelings or emotions it wasn't that we

couldn't talk about it but when it was spoken about it was never resolved I didn't talk about feelings or emotions. It wasn't that we couldn't talk about it, but when it was spoken about, it was never resolved. I didn't get enough guidance in that way. It was like they gave me the foundation to be free and confident as me, but then that was as far as it is. So your first marriage, what do you think, looking back, it taught you, that particular failure? I loved being a dancer. I still love being a dancer to this day. But then to just settle for the first person that gives you attention

and not really understand that actually the attention that is given you is because you're backing dancer and he wants your money and wants to get you as pregnant as quick as possible. That didn't factor in. I was still naive and still very, very young. It's so interesting to me that there you are, a Spice Girl, globally recognised person, incredibly successful. And at the same time, that coexists with Melanie Brown from Leeds, once you settle down like her mates have. Yeah, you still want to be part of the pack. And as well, have yeah you still want to be part of the pack and as well we were in a whirlwind you know we were traveling the world I'd barely even been on a plane let alone visited America you know and

sitting in a posh hotel and I was doing it with my four friends and we got a number one in 37 different countries all at once our first number one so it was like whoa but then it seemed like a whirlwind but then the eye of the storm was really calm but then you'd go back to Leeds and then my friends would be saying oh you you think you're posh do you because my accent had gone down a bit which I don't think it has actually I was still finding myself you know there's still a lot of things that I wanted to see and learn and little did I know boy would I learn a lot so I I'm also divorced so I had a failed first marriage and when that marriage imploded I think it made me realize for the first time like how much what I thought I had wanted yeah wasn't actually me it was what society at all yeah yeah and it took me a

really long time to understand myself and I think that's often the case for women yeah and I it's taken me like another 20 years to find out who I am yeah so but that's a beautiful thing because then I think you know when you're in your 40s you can go oh I've lived a life but oh my god I really know myself now and I've been so hard on myself and I've put myself through this. I actually really like myself and I really like my company. But now I really appreciate what I've learned, good, bad and indifferent. And even if it has felt horrendously bad at the time, which it did for 10 years, I'm using that in so much of a positive way. Yes, it's your purpose.

Yeah. And there's nothing better than being in alignment with your purpose. Oh for so long i wasn't i was shouting girl power and it was completely girl powerless so that was your first marriage yeah and in the book you also say that you went for emotionally unavailable men yeah because my dad was unemotionally available and i know it's quite oh i mean we do blame a lot on our parents, but I'm really thinking, well, we shouldn't because at some point we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

I agree. But they are the example, you know, and I didn't really see my mum and dad hug or do date night or be emotional or that much. It was like, just get on with it. For a really long time, I thought emotional unavailability was passion. Like, will they, won't they? Will they be there or won't they? But they're saying this thing, but they're acting

differently. Oh, how interesting. And now I'm lucky enough to be married again. And with Justin, I understand that safety is the most romantic thing of all. 100%. And I think that's what I was always searching for and thinking, well, they are going to give it to me. Oh, they will change. If I just give a bit more of this or do that, oh, it's all just bollocks, isn't it?

It is. If somebody doesn't make you feel safe, that's one of the red flags. Or you get that feeling in your tummy where you're a little bit scared of them. Yes. Not in a good way, leave. Totally.

I actually had this conversation once with a friend and she said, when you get to the point where you're thinking of recording an argument on your voice memo, that's a red flag. Or taking a picture of something just to know that it did happen. Yes. And I know that you know that more than most.

And I want to preface this whole conversation around your third failure by saying how sorry I am you went through that and how grateful I am for your honesty and your courage and talking about it oh thank you that means a lot it's incredible what you do and your your third failure is your second marriage and being in this abusive coercive relationship so you've spoken a bit about how you got into it and what happened and it was off the back of this very intense love affair with eddie murphy and then feeling a bit like he'd said something that he didn't mean in the heat of the moment and yeah and it was almost like you wanted

to prove that you were lovable is that right yeah not just that i wanted to he said something wrong i wanted him to make sure he was going to say it right, because I don't believe that you can just like fluff over that. If you've publicly embarrassed me and you're sorry, well, then you have to now go rectify it. So he had been caught on the hot by a reporter, a TV reporter. You had, sorry. Because I'd left him.

I sound like such a stalker, but it's just because I love your book so much that I know every detail. So basically, you had flown to Leeds because you are very independent and Eddie wanted you to move in together and you were like, actually, I just need some time to think. And he thought you'd abandoned him,

you'd left him. Yeah. And in that time, even though you hadn't, you flew back a few days later. Yeah, and he called my mum, of all people. And in that time,

a TV reporter said, oh, Melanie's pregnant and he said something like, well, she'll have to prove paternity. Yeah. Which he didn't mean because he knew that he was the dad. Well, I always say, well, if you didn't mean it, then you're going to have to mean it in another way, in a nicer way. Which I then made him get a DNA test, which he said he didn't want to do because he knows it was mine.

So I said, well, you're going to have to because I'm already pregnant and I'm going through supermarket shopping and people are looking at me sideways I said I didn't bring this on you did because we had a very private relationship and it was beautiful but then that happened and then it turned it sour for a little bit but but then it kind of made itself up but I wasn't going to go back to that. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world.

I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to dish on what new releases we can't get enough of. We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously, anime. Get the latest on The Anime Effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Are you the friend who can recognize anime themes sampled by J. Cole, MF Doom, and The Weeknd? Don't worry. I'm Lee Alec Murray.

And I'm also that person. I'm Nick Friedman. And I'm Leah President. And we invite you to take your Sonic knowledge to the next level by listening to our show, Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. Learn about how Yeji's latest album was actually born from her own manga. I started off with not even the music. I started off by writing a fantastical story. Or how 24K Golden gets inspired by his favorite opening themes. There are certain songs that I'm like, whoa, the melodies in this are really amazing.

No idea what bro's saying at all, but I'm jacking these melodies. And you know, I hear Megan Thee Stallion is also a big anime fan. So Megan, do you want to trade AOT hot takes? We're here. Listen every Friday, wherever you get your podcast and watch full episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. So into that mix arrives this person. Well, I think that this person had hunted me down. Like I always say, you don't wake up and say, oh, I really want to find an abuser as my boyfriend.

They find you and they're very smart and they find you at the right time and they say the right things and they do the right things and you are swept off your feet and before you know it you're married and you haven't spoken to your mum in a while and you don't know where your credit card is and oh but you're at work because you're the only person that's earning the money that process that you describe was very gradual wasn't it yeah i mean you they don't like outwardly abuse you obviously in the first couple of days months weeks but what they do is they emotionally mold you so it'll be like oh your friend's got a nice dress on i love that color i bet that color will look really good on you so then he buys you a dress in that color you think oh that's really nice and then another dress. So then he buys you a dress in that colour. You think, oh, that's really nice.

And then another dress and then another suggestion. Why don't you wear that? And then a little bit down the line, it's like, I've put your clothes out for you to wear. And you think, oh, that's kind. Actually, they're really just completely controlling you. And then you're in this thing of, oh, well, I know he likes that. But you know it doesn't feel right. Like if somebody genuinely was saying, this looks great on you, wow,

but it's always done with an abuse tone. That's how you know it's abuse because he's already pointed out some other girls, so now you feel insecure. And if you didn't before, you do over time. So then it starts trapping you on every single level, and it's not overnight. It's really gradual and really subtle. And that's why when Louise, who wrote the book with me, she put the 15 signs of abuse in the

back of my book. And before I even knew what that was, she went, have a read of that. And by this point, I was like, I don't want to talk about abuse anymore because it's so draining. And I didn't know how abused I had been for a start. So I look at these 15 signs and I go, well, yeah, that's the timeline of my marriage, obviously. And she was like, no, this is the signs from Women's Aid that you know if you're being abused. And I was like, I tick every single one of them. And I've asked you to come out and write this book.

I knew it was going to be a little bit dark and I didn't know it was going to be that honest because I didn't know how much I'd been abused. And Louise actually ended up doing a bunch of research on domestic violence, doing a bunch of research on abuse. She then had to go and interview 15 of my friends, work friends, whether it be from Simon Cowell's assistant or accountant to actually piece my life back together. And then Louise would say to me, so-and-so said this about you because they saw that. I'd go, no, they didn't.

And then I'd go, yeah, that happened. And actually it happened like that. But there was a bit more of even worseness on top of it. that but there was a bit more of even worseness on top of it so by the time the book started to really form a shape I was like I am I've been really badly abused on every single level and if that can happen to me can happen to anyone it can happen to my kids we need to do something about this and she's like yeah that's why you told me to write the book you know and then it was like well I actually I don't know if I want that book to come out and then Phoenix had wrote her chapter and I didn't realize what she had seen you know being in the same house what she'd heard and what she'd seen I was in shock and she put it in her own

words she wasn't lying it's my daughter and I was like this is all a real story but do I really want to put it all out there like that? And between Louise and my daughter, they were like, well, you've got to because you could be helping other people. I was like, well, that is going to give me the strength because I'm all about helping other people because I don't want anyone to go through this, ever. I mean, you are the embodiment of girl power in that respect

because power isn't about not being vulnerable power is about having the bravery to share your vulnerability knowing that that truth will reach someone in a desperate situation and make them feel stronger yeah that's power and that's what you've done well I think if I would have had a book like that sitting on my table during that 10-year marriage i would have took that book and ran for the fucking hills because at least somebody is describing what i'm going through when you say that you didn't recognize some of it at first or that you'd blocked it out yeah is that a kind of mental trapdoor of protection or was there something else going on there as well that made it difficult I think it's a lot of things I think you disassociate

yourself but I didn't want to really admit that because if if I really admit that then who am I why have I what have I done it's my fault and no one's gonna believe me but that's the mindset that you have but when so many the people around you have seen stuff and they're shouting about it finally because they know that I've divorced that monster, then I can't deny that because I don't want anybody else to feel like that. the fact that your youngest daughter has a relationship with her dad, who is this person who did all of these things to you that you've spoken really honestly about. How does that...? Well, I think when she's with me, I get to spend amazing time with her. And this is why I'm redoing the court system, because it's very easy for an abuser to say,

well, she's crazy, I should have the kid. And the judge goes, oh, yeah, OK, I'm going to believe you. She's crazy. I should have the kid. And the judge goes, oh, yeah, OK, I'm going to believe you. What? Why would you ever tear a daughter away from the mother? Just because I've dropped the domestic violence charge because I've only got X amount of years to do it in America. I'm not strong enough to do that right now. I'm strong enough to do it now. That would be part four of my book. We'll see about that. So you're exhausted.

So the fight that you have in you is the honest one to go, my daughter shouldn't be there. But you're fighting a whole court system. You're fighting an unsupported court system. And I'm fighting it in America, not even here. So I just have to pray a lot. And I have to think as long as when my daughter's with me, she understands unconditional love and she understands the right from wrong.

And we say a prayer before dinner and she has manners and she has respect and she knows what a healthy relationship looks like because she sees me and Rory. And do you not talk about her dad with her? No, I think, no, I'm very open. I won't bring his name up, but if she would say, oh, daddy did this, I'd go, oh, that's nice. So they still really don't ever leave. God, it must be so hard. But you can distance yourself and know, right,

you're not going to make me think I'm going mad again. I know what a healthy relationship looks like, thankfully. And even if I didn't have that great healthy relationship, because I'm away from his immediate abuse I can have time to breathe and I've got my family and I've got my friends around me and you've told the truth I think that's the that's the most and if it wasn't the truth he could have sued me six ways to Sunday and he hasn't did the Spice Girls reach out to you during this time like yeah yeah I think I did put it in the book. There was one point I was crying, I think it was in the shower or the bath,

and Gerry came to give me a hug and we just got into a terrible fight. But I made sure that all the doors were closed because we had to connect in hotel rooms when we were on tour back then, then, then. And even if I had the know-how to say to her, I've just been beaten up or whatever or violently cursed at in my face, I don't think I would have had the strength to tell her. But they knew something was wrong, but they didn't know because, don't forget, he was very much in control of me then.

So even if they would have said something how would I how would I have reacted I would have protected him all day long hence every single tweet and Instagram was oh my husband I love him so much look what he's done it was a complete lie and that's why when I sat back on the desk having done seven years of America's Got Talent I sat back on the desk last year in November and Simon was like god God, you are so happy. I was like, I know because I'm not living a lie anymore. I know exactly what I'm going home to. Now it's not my mum's house.

Now it's my new house, finally. And I'm free of that constant day in, day out. Now it's done in a different way, but I'm not going home to the, am I going to live through this night? Everyone who loves you must have been so relieved when you left. Yeah. Yeah.

And then it's almost a thing of, well, why didn't you tell me? They're like, well, we couldn't. You wouldn't have listened. We did try a little bit. And I was very angry at my mother for the longest time because I felt like she knew I was being abused or as a mum she should have known and why didn't she come and get me but yet don't forget when you've when you're part of abuse so is your family because they're being abused by that person also and so are your friends

so it's not just you you that ends up being abused it's everybody around you that ends up being abused and then they end up being isolated from you. It's impossible for them to come to your rescue. Your book, Brutally Honest, opens with a scene that I think so many of us will remember because I know I watched it at the time of you appearing on X Factor. Oh yeah. After you had gone through another cycle of abuse and you had overdosed and you got yourself out of that hospital you discharged yourself against the advice of doctors and you put makeup on the bruises and you tried to and you appeared on stage and it was a very arresting image and and you did it with power and intent behind it because you weren't wearing your wedding ring and i made sure i went like that yes but i still remember that way before i knew that i was gonna be lucky enough to interview you wait years and years ago before

this podcast even started i remember i still remember that image and i find it really upsetting and also really um meaningful and i wonder whether you have ever watched it back. No, I've seen pictures of it because I'd left him at that point. And that was a fuck you. I really have left you because I've got no ring on and I've taken the drips out of my arm and you're not stopping me from working because my work is my safe place. And then shortly after that, I went back. So that is a very, like, twisted, like, because I was so close to leaving yet again, so close.

And yet I went back because my kids. And he was already making out as though I was absolutely crazy and I believed him that the story that he was going to roll out on me was going to ruin my career so I wanted to save my kids save my work and I went back and I dealt with it for another few more years but that was the first time because I'd been out of ear range and I wasn't answering my phone because I was in hospital. I made sure that I had a police guy and security guy at my door because I thought he was going to come into the hospital

and he was going to kill me. Which is crazy when you think about it because it's a hospital and you've got security and they know why you're there. And Randy was the one that took me to the hospital because I passed out in the car. And I just thought, nobody's going to stop me from working and nobody is going to tell me where I have to be. I don't want to be with you and I'm going to make sure my wedding rings off

and I'm going to make sure because I knew when the doors open, they would always do a close-up shot and I would usually do like a woo-hoo. And I was like that fuck you in my brain but terrified and very weak because I just pulled all stuff from me and I was still bruised and my one of my ribs was brought it was a lot and I thought no I'm good I can remember sitting there and Cheryl was going to me are you okay you've gone drip white because I couldn't breathe I couldn't really talk but I was like no one's gonna stop me and then I think I couldn't breathe. I couldn't really talk. But I was like, no one's going to stop me. And then I think I collapsed after that.

I went back into the hospital. And then went back to him. It took you another few years, but you made it out in the end. Yeah. And I hate using the word luck because I don't really believe lucky. I'm lucky to be lucky. No, I don't know if it was my dad or the universe strength, but I got out and not many people get out.

Or they get out and they're still so badly scarred that they can't even move on or breathe. That's why it's so imperative we have support. It's so imperative that we understand and we can have empathy and help because it's an epidemic. You know, we all know somebody. If you haven't gone through it yourself, you definitely know somebody that's gone through it or that's going through it. So if the statistics are that bad and that terrible and they're not going to get any better unless we do something about it,

we have to stand up and do something about it. I've got two final questions. One is, you have been so beautifully honest about your failures. What do you think your failures have taught you? Oh my God, where do you begin? It's taught me, number one, just to really rely on that gut instinct if something doesn't feel quite right don't override it with it's gonna be okay because that gut instinct is there for a reason because I do always believe that you are gonna be okay but my are gonna be okay was riddled with that and every time that I've not been okay it's because I haven't listened to that when I it's it's never let me down it's always been there I've just chosen to ignore it and hope for the best my final question Melanie Brown scary spice living legend is about

your dad yeah I know that he is still such a strong presence with you and a very moving moment in the book comes when he writes your letter in 1995 just before the spice girls become huge yeah and it's about the power of making mistakes if you learn from them i wonder and never forget where you come from you always say that yeah i go i know where i come from i'm from these well actually i wanted to ask what you think he would say to you now, right now, if you were here at this table, having listened to this conversation. I think he'd be really overwhelmed with emotions, he would,

because I haven't stopped. Oh, God. Because I haven't stopped and I've always just carried on. Like, I think he would just be, he'd be really mad. really mad like I told you not to mind that person but I think he'd be really happy yeah do you think he'd be proud of you god I've never cried and cried in a long time sorry I'm bugger sorry I have this effect I think he'd be happy and I did go to his grave when I got properly out of that I think he'd be a bit mad but he'd be really happy and he'd be so happy about Rory because Rory was his favorite did he so he knew Rory presumably

because of the okay yeah oh that's wonderful that he got to meet Rory yeah that's a really beautiful thing you were a very pretty crier no you should not. You should do it more often. You are. I'm not. I'm going to look back on this and go, oh, fuck. But hey-ho, it's me. It's you showing up as yourself, which is all that anyone can ever ask. I can't believe you made me cry. No, it's good to cry.

I say this to Rory all the time. Because I haven't seen Rory cry in a while. And I go, but it's good to cry. And now he's going to be saying that to me when I get out of here I cry all the time I'm very proud I do I'm a crier but a secret crier oh bless you that for me is such a beautiful thing like thank you for trusting me with your story I would have walked out a long time ago because now I'm I'm very much I live by if something doesn't feel right I'm gone me too thank you and I try and be nice but I would have gone.

Now I feel very comfortable and very trusting with you. I've loved talking to you. Thank you for everything that you do. Now you owe me a massive vodka. A hundred percent. I also love that you drink vodka. Me too. Wait, you have to stay there

because you're going to stay with us for Failing With Friends. Okay. All right. Mel B, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. Thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. Just a quick reminder that we continue the conversation with Melanie Brown over at Failing With Friends. It's a wonderful community of subscribers where we chat through your failures and questions. So I went through a massive tequila phase.

Me too. 1942, I was obsessed with that. Incredible. And it's like clean liquor. I don't understand why it didn't give you a hangover. That's why I got into it. That's why I got into it. This works. I'm fine in the morning. Just a quick reminder that we continue the conversation with Melanie Brown over at Failing With Friends. It's a wonderful community of subscribers where we chat through your failures and questions.

Get Failing With Friends episodes every week and all How To Fail episodes ad-free. Just visit the How To Fail show page on Apple Podcasts and click Start Free at the top of the page to begin your free trial. Or you can visit failingwithfriends.com if you're not an Apple user.