How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Miranda Hart - 'I always knew I’d get married at 51'

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

It’s been ten years of ‘bear with.. bear with’ but *finally* we’ve got our beloved Miranda Hart back. Due to a long-term undiagnosed chronic illness (which we talk about, of course) Miranda has been largely out of the public eye for the past decade. I was so touched to be the first person she spoke to on her return to work. We covered writing her new book (full of amazing life advice), being an introvert, medical gaslighting, body image and…wait for it... her new husband. Miranda and I had a ball - her failures include not being a farmer’s wife, not being an athlete and not making the school choir (it turns out there was a reason for this but she only found out years later and has never spoken about it before…). So if that’s not tantalising enough for you then, quite frankly, I don’t know what is. In my subscriber episode ‘Failing with Friends’, Miranda stayed on to answer your questions including one about farting in front of your partner. Yes, we went there. Thank you, Miranda and welcome back, we missed you! ‘I Haven’t Been Entirely Honest with You’ by Miranda Hart is out now. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Manager: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole and Josh Gibbs Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Céline Dion. that helped manufacture Celine Dion, the pop icon. Celine Understood. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that redefines failure as a stepping stone on our path to learning how to succeed. Before we move on with proceedings, I'd love to quickly remind you about our special subscriber bonus podcast, Failing with Friends. This is where my guest kindly stays a few minutes more to become agony aunt or uncle or non-binary advice giver. And we chat about you and your failures, your questions, anything you've emailed in about that particular week.

Here's a bit of Miranda as a taster. Do you fart in front of your partner? Are you being serious? That's, yep. Oh, that's genius. Absolutely. It's the funniest thing ever. Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes and you can send me an email or look out for my call-outs once a month on Instagram for short form questions. Thank you so

much and now back to Miranda. My guest today created a comedic example of failure that became one of the most beloved sitcom characters of the last twenty years. The semi-autobiographical Miranda, which aired on the BBC from 2009 to 2015, featured a lovable, socially inept lead who frequently found herself in awkward situations. The show spoke to millions who also felt they never entirely fitted in and won its creator, Miranda Hart, three Royal Television Society Awards. Hart went on to appear in Call the Midwife as Chummy and in movies including Emma with Anya Taylor Joy and Spy alongside Melissa McCarthy who described her co-star as,

"...one of the funniest people I've ever met. Despite her on-screen good cheer and specifically British brand of dust yourself off humor, off-screen heart faced serious challenges. As she reveals in her new book, I Haven't Been Entirely Honest With You, behind the scenes, she was struggling with an undiagnosed chronic health condition that resulted in spells of housebound exhaustion and pain.

The book opens with hearts collapse, both physical and emotional, and charts a challenging decade, during which she looked for answers and came up with a manual for living. Along the way she did finally receive a diagnosis of Lyme's disease and, spoiler alert, she fell in love with the man who is now her husband, yes, but perhaps more importantly with herself. "'My greatest achievement,' she writes, "'is learning to be kind and compassionate to myself. Put another way, less palatable and easily misconstrued, but I shall say it anyway, my greatest achievement has been falling in love with myself. Miranda Hart, welcome to How to Fail.

Oh, thanks. What a lovely introduction. What a lovely book. Oh, thank you. As I remember, the next sentence after that is, oh, I'm slightly cringing it there, I've fallen in love with myself. And I did do a little kind of- You did a British contraction. Still do a British middle-class contraction. Actually, I really wanted to ask you about that

because the book is so generous and really takes the reader by the hand. You talked to the reader throughout what you're writing and you've clearly done so much of your own research guided by needing to find the answers yourself. And a lot of it is about self-compassion and self-love. A lot of things that we traditionally think of as quite American and sort of therapeutic, which I'm a big fan of, by the way. How much did you have to dismantle your British stiff upper lip to write it? Well, firstly, I think you're right in that I did. I kind of how the book started was that I needed answers for myself. So I did have to sort of demystify and kind of simplify this whole wellness

expertise that's out there, which is amazing. It's out there that we've got access to these scientists and neuroscientists, or the ists as I call them in the book. So yeah, it is me talking the reader through what I've learned and what are the sort of 10 keys or the 10 treasures as I call them that kind of simplified all that talk and all that discourse. And part of what I learned was how much of my, I mean, obviously I think hopefully people all, from whatever background or whatever difficulty they're going through will get something from it,

from the treasures. But for me, a lot of it was going, gosh, that middle-class background of keep calm, carry on. That stiffness, that just be positive and upbeat, don't show weakness, whatever that means, that just be positive and upbeat, you know, don't show weakness, whatever that means, vulnerability. I really had to dismantle a lot of that. Not to research so much but realise, oh my gosh, that is part of possibly what leads to chronic conditions, certainly keeps them going. So yeah, it was a big wake-up call to many things, but definitely

that. I wonder if we could talk about Miranda the character, because she is so beloved by so many millions, including me. Where does the character stop and you, Miranda Hart, start? Oh, God, that's a good question. Weirdly, a question that I haven't been asked about ten years and probably couldn't answer then. I haven't thought about to this very moment. I always used to say that she was... and when did I write her? When I was in my mid-30s? Mid-late 30s? And I always used to say then she was my the 20-something me. So in your 20s you really don't know what you're doing. Well I didn't. No, me neither. I didn't know who I was and what was going on. I was sort of

trying to fit in, trying to belong, bumbling, tall, gangly, wasn't the perfect woman, all this nonsense you're supposed to fit in. So I think I always felt sort of a decade removed from her, if that makes sense. But actually her journey was to accept and learn to be herself, and she got there in the finales when she married her best friend. And I thought back then that I'd done that myself. I thought I knew and accepted myself. What the decade since with illness and the time to reflect and have stillness, well that was my only option being bed and house band often for months on end, was that I realized, oh, I was further away from that than I thought. So it's been a huge privilege to think that my on-screen Miranda maybe got there first

before me. But now I've caught up. Does that make any sense? It made total sense and I think it's really beautiful. And I relate in so many ways in that I got divorced in my mid-irties and then I thought I'd learned all of the lessons that I needed to apply next time into my new relationship and I hadn't. I was actually using the new relationship as a kind of emotional scaffolding as much as I didn't realise I was doing it and I was in love with him and stuff. But when that relationship ended, it really forced me to confront the truth of myself. Yeah. And sometimes we need these crises.

Well, I think that's what the midlife crisis ultimately is, isn't it? It's going, oh, I didn't know who I was until now. So emptiness syndrome, divorce, whatever, you're suddenly on your own. But what I'm passionate about is how much the blooming world shouts at us for so many reasons. It's so loud, it's so noisy. It still tells us how to look, how many steps to do a day now, for goodness sake, how to be fit, how to be healthy. It says, be busy, busy, busy, accrue, success, achievement. It's just shouting at us in so many ways.

Don't be vulnerable, be upbeat and positive all the time, fix, help. And there's a silly creative person who wrote Miranda and was a little bit Miranda. I didn't think that I'd fallen into that trap I had. And in that context, although I know you said you were given no option because of your illness, but it's very brave to take 10 years out. And I wonder how fearful you were of that. Felt well, resisted it a lot because initially it was pre-diagnosis. I had a few, about five years before a full understanding of the diagnosis. And in fact was told, countlessly, for sort of decades, because I hadn't felt well for since teenage years, that it was just anxiety and stress.

I don't know why just was, you know, I was in two weeks off and you'll be fine. So then I kept trying to go back to work with thinking, well, if I'm not physically unwell or that will run down, then maybe work or help. So I did a bit of work in the first five years, but ultimately just completely collapsed. And then I knew there was something that was undiagnosed.

And that's when I knew I couldn't work. And it was really, it wasn't, I wasn't fearful because I had no choice. But, so the fear comes, I think, when you have choice of pre-diagnosis of whether to keep going, whether to not, because you feel so awful, you've got to keep going and be on set and it's your face. You can't just take time out.

You know, it's a precious situation. So it was, but it was, so it wasn't fear making, it was just very disappointing. And I just missed it so much. And I sort of lost my identity a bit initially with who am I with that work? Because it's been such a huge part of my life, as it can be for many. Could you just explain Lyme's disease to the uninitiated? I got a tick bite we since discovered probably when I was 14 or 15 in America and you can have a sort of flu-like feeling, very run down, high temperature but you haven't seen that it's a clear tick bite. Yeah it's basically a tick-borne infection and it can lead to quite severe neurological things like loss of concentration and memory and it screws with your immune and nervous

system basically. And it means you can never fully recover. No, so it becomes then a kind of ME. That's ultimately what ME becomes is that you get an initial infection, and long COVID, same, you could get COVID, you could get any virus or infection, and your immune system just never fully recovers. So you feel like you have flu every day, but yet you don't, you don't have a temperature. And so it's very hard to get a diagnosis.

And you're often, as we were talking about, dismissed by the mainstream medical establishment, particularly one might say men, I imagine. And tell us about TAT. TAT, oh gosh, yeah, that was, I mean, my heart just goes out to anyone listening who's got chronic illness, particularly ME and chronic fatigue, because what I think the hardest thing about it for me was the bit misjudged and misunderstood by far. I kept saying if someone told me what I've got, what the management plan is, what the pill I take or not take, you know, what I do, I can cope. That's where the resilience can come in. It's the not knowing and the being misunderstood. And this doctor I went to, he said to me,

he was just being grumpy when I was telling this doctor, I'm going, I just, I just feel like I'm going to collapse. I just feel really unwell, what's going to happen? And he looked like he was listening but I wasn't sure, and then he wrote down something at the top of my notes and I said, oh, what did you write? And he was like, a bit like, well, I'm not going to tell you something. I was like, tell me what you think is wrong with me and my body. And I looked at his notes and it said tat, t-a-t-t. I said what's tat and he went it's code for tired all the time. So I said you're just putting tat at the end of my note but that and I

remember saying to him if I was just a bit tired and recovered after night sleep and got through I wouldn't be here sitting complaining, you know, tears were welling up and he literally then just went, I don't know what else to say to you. There's nothing wrong with you. Look, I've got your blood test and got properly crossed with me and I just ran out in floods. It's awful. I'm so sorry. Well, I mean it was horrible. I know it's not necessarily an individual's responsibility, I mean it is, but it's not

necessarily his fault. But the gaslighting on this sort of grand scale of particularly women's pain and experience is a very difficult thing. It's really hard. And I thought, you know, hopefully that has gone away. I mean, I'm sure it's better and better now, particularly with the talk of long COVID and ME and where it's coming from, and much more understanding about these chronic pain and fatigue conditions. But Kirsty Young had recently said that only, I think, four years ago, she was told, oh, fibromyalgia, that's not a thing. She's like, but I can't

really sort of move because actually women predominantly get these conditions, which is interesting in itself, maybe because of years of gaslighting and various other things. We're so flipping rundown, our body is going to eventually scream. So yeah, I just hope that's better now. I really do. Let's get on to your failures. Your first failure is failure to be a farmer's wife. Yes, very, very important. I don't know why you're laughing.

Well, first of all, I find it intriguing that it's being a farmer's wife rather than being a farmer. Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, this was, can I first say, let me just, can I defend myself? Absolutely. All your internalised misogyny. Yes, exactly. You know the question, what did you want to be when you were younger? I love that question because I think it's a great portal to, so what are you missing out on now? Because I think our younger selves often know the answer to what we want to be. And so if we're tired or in a midlife crisis or lacking joy in our life, go back to that question and think, actually, is there anything in that? So one of the things I wanted

to be was a comedian. The other thing I wanted to be was Wim Wimbledon. And I also wanted to be a farmer's wife. So I obviously also was very wise when I was young and thinking, I know that farming is one of the hardest industries, so I won't be the farmer. I'll be the farmer's wife. To me, what that meant was collecting the eggs from the chickens. So basically, it's that I wanted chickens. And I think I did visualize myself in a pinny in a country farm cottage, but I was never doing any cooking. Did you listen to the archers? in a country farm cottage, but I was never doing any cooking. Did you listen to the archers?

No, never listened to the archers. But I had a sheep dog, definitely there was a sheep dog involved. Yeah, so I probably did not the harvesting and the serious sort of tractor business. Or the waking up early. Or the waking up early or the accounts or any of that. I just did the sort of fun sheepdog. There were probably goats.

Small pigs that don't ever turn into big pigs. Piglets, I believe they're called. So you can see I was a nutshell. But I wanted the landscape. I think I did want to drive a Land Rover. All those fun sort of... Not quad bikes. They're not fun. They're terrifying. not quad bikes, quad bikes, no.

It has to be more like a sort of glorified golf buggy. Talk to me more about the delight of solitude, which I think comes up when you're talking about that, and comes up in your book too because I mean I can relate to this as well that curious mishmash of introversion and extroversion because you're clearly a very capable and talented performer. Thanks very much. You put your face out there and your name and it's sort of a version of you. Yeah I can do that. But I think I'm guessing from you that you are actually more introverted than you ever allowed yourself to be, would that be fair? Well first I ever knew that I was. What did that come... knew? No I didn't realize I was

introverted. See that's one of the things I think the world... I don't know now but it did when I was growing up. I don't know if you relate to this, although you are younger than I. But it was still maybe pre Susan Cain's book Quiet coming out. Amazing book. Amazing book. That it was still better to get ahead, again I'm putting that in vertical as well, does that mean? If you are extroverted, loud, out there, positive, upbeat, you know, wise, clever, and where was the celebration or the acceptance or the encouragement of the shyer child

who might be the contemplative and the still one and needs to work with no music in the background and all the things that I've learned about myself, that I was in a world that was too noisy for me. And because I didn't know I was introvertedverted because I tried to be an extrovert. That's what I was taught culturally And then when I realized it probably only ten years ago This weight just lifted off. I thought of course so one of the reasons to be to say I'm a failed farmer's wife is I think

because I Was forced into an urban environment that was just too much for my nervous system ultimately. But actually I think I could do that urban environment now with the knowledge of being an introvert and a highly sensitive person. If I took the time for stillness, I need a day a week to not speak. That's kind of one of my little rules. I like to socialise in small groups very intentionally. I get exhausted by a big night out. But all that stuff as a

20 something university or as a teenager, you don't feel that that's allowed or I didn't. No. And so I'm forced to become another way and become also very productive, which I love, it's definitely part of me, but not without the degree of stillness and contemplation and peace and space and countryside that I need. And so it's just so freeing to now. And that's why I'm so passionate about my book and why I wrote it, is if the twenty-something me could read this and go do you want to have a little think about whether actually you are an introvert

how much it would have helped and I'm sure one of the reasons why I got so fatigued my immune system got funky was because I was trying to be something that I was not. So yeah I think a farmer's wife was a way to escape from the noise. I completely get all of that because I always knew I wanted to be a writer. And I thought, well, to get into writing, I've got to be a journalist first. So I went into journalism and I am an introvert, but I was pitched headlong into this world

where I had to bowl up to people at parties. I was on the diary column at the evening stand and ask famous people questions. And it was so nerve wracking. And exhausting. And this is the thing that you identify, so exhausting. And- Hang on, I'm going to do a burp.

Okay, go ahead. I'm so sorry. That'll be a social media clip. That's just classic, down the line again, apologies for the burp, slightly sweaty upper lips because I've had tea. And you're in the middle of talking about you. Maybe it's because I didn't want it to be about you.

Yeah, which is totally fair enough and it shouldn't be. You're interviewing me. Who do you think you are? Elizabeth Day? But it relates to you. No, carry on. No, it's fascinating. Absolutely that exhaustion because I think I became a sort of socially conditioned, like a high functioning introvert who could assume the mantle of extroversion, but it always came at a cost of energy. Yes. And now I'm at a stage in my life, which is exactly the stage that you write about in the book, where I don't know if I want to see anyone. Well, exactly. But how do you manage that?

Because how do you manage friendships? Very very intentionally. So A, I trust that they're there if I don't see them for two years. B, I don't think you can have a hundred really, really close friends. That's exhausting in itself. Particularly as a, I mean, I think even my very extroverted friends would say that's not really that possible. And I've sort of really thought, okay, how do I like socializing? Because I hate dinner parties, I hate formal. So I think actually the favorite way for me, as long as they're, as long as my friends are happy to socialize, is things like round a campfire or getting people over to what's

strictly and chatting for an hour and a half before and throughout. I don't like small talk. If people want to share something with me, I want to ask something. So it's about intentionality for me and trusting they're there. Because I think I did a lot of, I must keep up, I must see her, I must see him, I must do that, for fear that they were, for fear that that was the good and nice thing to do and that they won't be there if I don't. But now I have full trust that they're there, that they'll tell me if they need to see me and then the intentional way to gather if I may be so.

Did you lose friends over your illness, over that protracted period of not being able to keep up? Well amazingly now I'm reconnecting, now I have the health to reconnect and I realise I didn't lose them, but they lost me completely because I had no choice but to isolate. A, I was shielding before the word shielding existed because even if I got a cold when I was working, that would be me out for six to eight weeks and I wouldn't know why. So I had to be very careful who I was around. I couldn't work and socialise. So there was many years even before illness where I wasn't really available for them. So they definitely lost me. And then one of the things I mentioned in the book that I found, didn't realise I found so difficult was asking for help. So then when I, I wasn't practised at that. So then when I became ill, I didn't know how

to say help, particularly when you don't have a diagnosis and I was so exhausted I just didn't want to see anyone so I've got amazing friends because I did stick around and I'm reconnecting with them with them now and it's like we haven't had 10 years apart and that's a sign of good friendship. One of your best friends during this time was Peggy, your beloved dog. Oh, Peggy. And I wanted to talk about Peggy because it relates to this idyllic existence

as a farmer's wife, because so much of it is about being surrounded by animals instead of humans. Well, I think us introverts and definitely, I keep saying this word to highly sensitive people, have you come across that? Yes. To our HSP? Yes. So if you haven't look it up because if if you are one it makes a huge difference how to manage energy in life but and we make the best people obviously. A hundred percent. So we are very attuned with animals we love animals we love that calm simple energy energy because basically, I'll stop saying

we, I can only speak for myself. I think what I realise in a serious matter about animals is that the connection I love most is just sitting in a room with someone you don't have to speak. Yes. And that's, you feel utterly loved, utterly accepted and you have to make no effort, you're just you. And that's what a dog gives you. I mean, obviously it's what lots of animals give you, but we tend to have, don't have

pet llamas. I have a cat and he gives me that. Cat? Yeah. Fine. Exactly. I used to have a cat. All right.

It's not a competition. No, until I realized I was mildly allergic to them. Oh no. I couldn't understand why I kept sort of coughing. It took me about 20 years. Anyway, but that's exactly cats and dogs. You just look at them and it makes you want to cry. You just feel certain. You get in at the end of the day. I mean, even if I had somebody and it wasn't single, I think I would have gone straight to the dog

for that love first. So unconditional, present. they're also completely present. And I think that's what everybody needs, that non-judgmental presence, loving presence, but even more so as an introvert and highly sensitive person. Do you have pets now? I do. So Peggy died early, oh gosh, I can't remember which year, but during the pandemic, which was the worst time. So then I was completely alone and that led to, I mean, it's all in the book what I ended up learning, but gosh, the kind of hefty blessing in disguise of having to dig deep without Peggy. So it was about just under a year later that I got Patty. A friend happened to text me, I love the way random things Patty. A friend happened to text me,

I love the way random things happen, a friend happened to text me and said, ''Isn't it time we get a new dog?'' This is about 10 months in. I said, ''Yes, but I'm so exhausted. Where do I begin looking? I don't know what breed.'' As we were texting, she said, ''Look at this link.

I found this thing called a Poochon and it's in Portsmouth, which is near my parents where I was staying during the pandemic.'' It was this little fluffy sandy ball of poodly fur, hypoallergenic, thank you, and I went, that's it yeah, and my sister went down and had a look at now Patti, the Poochon from Portsmouth, six weeks later she was in my arms, this tiny bald fluff, so I now have Patti. It's a Poochon, a Poodle and a Bichon Fries. Yes.

Oh my goodness. Yes. So Peggy was a Bichon Fries shitsu, or a shitty Fries as I called her. And now I've got a Pouchon. So there's a little theme there. But yeah, but it's interesting how I don't need Patti in quite the same way as I needed Peggy, which means I'm much more generallyatti in quite the same way as I needed Peggy, which means I'm much more generally connected in real life.

And you've got married. And because I have a husband to look into his adoring eyes these early days. It's still early days. Which I have to say is such a beautiful part of the book and you plot it so perfectly. Oh, that coming from me, that means a lot, you saying coming from me means a lot to me. Stop it. Thank you. The loop of love just keeps on going.

It's so wonderful. And I don't want to ruin anything for the reader because you reveal at the end something about how you met. Yes. Just tell us about that because you always had a feeling, didn't you, that you're going to get married at 51? yeah yeah so maybe I will be a farmer's wife he's not a farmer so I can't be otherwise I have to get all that's all gone wrong

so yeah I remember that was in my sort of 20s and I remember when everyone was sort of all my girlfriends was talking about marriage and sort of wanting the big wedding and the white dress and all that and I was just like I don't relate to any of you. I just wasn't interested at all. I don't know why, I don't know whether because I had this interest in comedy, whatever. And I remember always thinking I think the perfect time to get married would be at 51 because by then you'd want to sort of inject some new energy and excitement into life. All your friends would be 20, 30 years into marriage and you'd be like, yay, I'm starting again. You'd know who you were. It just felt right for me.

Did you know you didn't want children? No, no, it just sort of never came. I think I was focused in my 20s and early 30s thinking I'm just going to try this comedy thing. I mean, obviously it's not going to happen. Knew I wasn't interested in the white dress and getting married, unless it was to a farmer, obviously. Priorities. A farmer. And so I just was focused on, well, let's just live in London, see what happens with the comedy thing. And then it took off. So then I was just like, well, let's just live in London, see what happens with the comedy thing. And then it took off. So then I was just like, well, I'm not going to let a boy ruin this.

I seem to be doing something here. And so, yeah, that's just what took over and said. Hi this is Jesse Tyler Ferguson, host of the podcast, Dinners on Me. And whether you're a first-time wine drinker or a wine aficionado, you're guaranteed to like America's number one luxury cabernet. Since 1981, Justin's Vineyards and Winery has been producing world-class Bordeaux-style wines from Paso Robles on California's central coast, and are what put the Paso Robles region on the winemaking map. They recently sent me some of their wines, including their Cabernet Sauvignon and their

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Hello, I'm Elizabeth Day. You might know me as the creator and host of the How to Fail podcast, but I want to tell you about a new podcast I've made. How to Write a Book is for anyone who wants to get their story out there. Fronted by a bestselling author, a super agent, and a powerhouse publisher, this 12-week masterclass will take you right through from developing an idea to nailing the plot. If you want to get all episodes at once and completely ad-free, subscribe now. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. The reason I'm about to ask you this question is not because I'm a sort of gender reductionist.

And it's because of my personal journey, yet again, all about herself, in that I don't have children and I tried and failed. Oh, so that's what you asked, the children, yeah. But I'm very at peace with the fact that I don't have children. Yeah. And I think it's really healthy for people to hear stories of fully realized women who aren't mothers in the conventional sense. Yes. Well, another thing the world shouts at us, isn't it? Yes. You know, get married by 35, it's old apparently, it's still now, like you've got to have this, your life together at age 30,

what's all this nonsense. The desire for me never happened. I would have this odd flicker of thinking, I think I'd make a good mum. And there's an occasional flicker of sadness that I can't impart what I've learnt or I can't share something with someone or just experience what that's like. That was just flickers of intrigue rather than an overwhelming maternal desire for children, which you must have had. Because I didn't even consider going down the route and I always thought I'm going to be quite happy without kids. So it just wasn't, maybe it was never meant to be. I can remember on the set of Call the Midwife, these fantastic costume and makeup ladies, and I noticed that quite a lot of

them hadn't had children. And I asked them about that and they said, I feel so fulfilled in who I am. I have roles as being a godmother or a stepmother or I'm invested in my work and my friendships in a way. And I thought, yeah, I'm so lucky that I've never felt that pressure or that lack as somebody who, you know, we've all got a purpose and we're all uniquely wired. And maybe it just, you know, just I wasn't meant to have children. That's not where my energy was meant to go. I don't know.

Well, so I imagine Call the Midwife, it's enough to put you off going through birth because those birth scenes. Quite full on. Yes. Particularly when you're handling a 10-day-old baby slathered in baby oil and not ketchup or whatever the equivalent was for blood and you had to deliver it and then you're trying to do the acting whilst also thinking the mother of this tiny newborn is watching on the screen. I could easily drop this thing. I mean, there's a lot going on. Wow.

And you've got to pretend you know what you're doing. How do you even get a 10-day-old baby? Are they signed up to actors agencies? Yes, now you think about it. Why have I not questioned that before? I think there was too much going on at that moment. Yes, fair enough. But that wasn I not questioned that before? I think there was too much going on at that moment. Yes, fair enough. That wasn't... They must have gone around hospitals, mustn't they?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Does anyone want their newborn to be in a show? Yeah. I mean, it's a good show to be in. Yeah, but first, who is it didn't know that. True. Can I just say though, on a serious note, that idea of imparting wisdom and advice, I actually think with your book, it's an act of mothering, if that's not too much of an overstep. I felt very mothered reading it. Well, no, I do say, and I see I shouldn't have, I policed myself because I resisted

saying you mother in other ways, but you do. It does feel like my main creative gifts in this book being one and Miranda being those two being the main do feel like yeah my act of mothering. Yes. Let's get on to your second failure which is failed athlete. Yes. So you are pretty good at sport and sprinting and all sorts at school. Yeah, so it's really weird because I got into the public eye when I'd put on a huge amount of weight and was clowning and so if ever I said I was a fat athlete people would just laugh, understandably, because they didn't know when I was, yeah, mid late teens I was an athlete. I was a lacrosse player at school and had county lacrosse.

I think maybe at one point England, my memory is so short. Lime disease, you see, I forget its memory. But definitely it was county level and then it was a sprint, it was a very, very fast sprinter. And it was just sport, being an athlete was my absolute passion. I think it's back to freedom freedom and movement it's obviously tall lean I was also very good at tennis and I wanted to be a professional athlete. That's all I could think of doing and I had this opportunity It was a good public school. I think a lot of people Well, hopefully it's not just public schools, but a lot of people migrate to those schools to scout, to look for athletes. Somebody came up to me having seen me sprint the 100 metres and said, oh I'm from a scouting,

we're in a club in Southampton and you've definitely got potential, would you like to come and train for free this summer? And I was wide eyed, I said, God this is my absolute dream. My parents don't live far from the Southampton. And then he said to me, this is 1985, you will have to strap down your breasts. To which I was so scared and so horrified, I just ran away. I never told anyone about it, which is, and that to me feels like a real, I feel like I failed myself there because there could have been a way around that. If I told an adult about that, they would have said, you should come and do the training, talk through the breast things, we won't be doing that. So I feel

really sad that I missed that opportunity. And then life circumstances after school and whatever, illness, putting on weight, I just lost that side of me and I feel it pains me actually. And it's interesting to get in touch with now because in the last three years I'm probably the biggest I've ever been weight-wise, which I hate to say I don't have a problem with, well I'm dealing with it not being a problem in terms of bigger is lesser, pun, but just because it's not me, I feel uncomfortable and it's difficult to manage and deal with. It's just not my athletic lean frame.

So I'm really in touch again with this, the sadness of putting on weight in my 20s and losing that athleticism and not keeping up sport and not keeping that up because it feels like such an inherent part of who I am. I love that movement, that energy, the connection with team sports. I love mastering things. Could have been good at tennis. So yeah, I feel really sad that I missed that. Yes, because it's losing your identity and the way you present in the world is really

important if you feel that it doesn't accurately reflect who you are. Yeah. Well, it was then hard to then sort of getting into telly. I mean, I think Miranda would have worked if I'd still been thin in my natural way. I still would have been the bumbling idiot. But you then sort of presenting yourself in a, yeah, you do feel like you're presenting not quite who you are. And people would joke, would laugh if I said I was an athlete, which always really hurt me. Of course, that's so hurtful. But I tell you what, I'm learning from it now, which I would say to my 20-something

younger self who put on weight for illness and other reasons, is actually... Because it's what I'm having to learn now with this weight gain, it's not the, yes, the external and how you present is important, but it's not the most important thing. The key is to know and find out who you are without any of the external identifying you, which is what happened to me in my illness. There was nothing. I was bed and housebound on and off for years. So there was, I couldn't work, I couldn't socialize, I couldn't tell stories, I couldn't move, I couldn't go on adventures, I couldn't go on holidays. I lost my home at one point. There was nothing by worldly measurement to go,

this is who I am. And it's incredibly humbling and terrifying. But if you find out who you are beyond that, there is a freedom and meaning and joy to life that I don't think I ever would have found without it. So actually being who I am whilst being big and not an athlete is a very humbling privilege actually, because I can really focus on the most important things about me. It's actually making me feel a bit teary. It's so powerful what you're saying and how you're saying it. Thank you. Yeah, well I just think and when I first put on this weight recently, midlife hormones and happy fat due to a blame husband because when you first

meet someone you end up eating a lot and going out and getting takeaways and all that. But yeah, hormones mid-life ultimately and becoming deconditioned due to chronic illness. The initial shame I felt about it, the initial embarrassment I thought, oh gosh, I'm going back to work after 10 years and I can present really differently and I'm going to be fat, which I know is fine, but it's not me, so it didn't feel fine. But now it is becoming fine. And I just think anyone who feels lesser for any reason, whether it's weight gain, whether it's because they don't feel they have the right job, the right relationship by this certain age, whether they're an introvert and they don't want to, whatever reason, I just so passionately believe that we are inherently valuable and worthwhile and loved and that's our purpose

to love and to be loved and nothing else matters. You know, this, I mean, some people might say that my rumbling, huge, rolly polly tummy is the best part of me, but it's not. You know, our bodies are not the best part of us. Our jobs aren't the best part of us. I actually want to pick you up there on the language you use to talk about yourself, because there's a part in the book where you say how important words and labels are. So you label Lyme disease differently, you label your fatigue differently. Yeah. Is that sort of work in progress? Because just then you sounded pretty critical about yourself. What, the way I said fat?

The way you said your huge rumbling tummy. Yeah, that's just me going to an obvious joke. Because I thought that that literally just was comedy, honestly. As defence mechanism Miranda? No, not as defence mechanism. Because I'm genuinely learning that my body's not what's important. Honestly, not as a defense mechanism, Miranda. No, not as a defense mechanism. Okay, fine. Because I'm genuinely learning that my body is not what's important. And then I thought the joke is that, well, somebody might think this is the most important

part of me. It was hilarious, Elizabeth. Thank you for explaining the joke to me. I'm so sorry. I was like so in my emotions after the exquisite thing you just said. It just shows that the comedian does always ruin it if they go there. I'm sorry. And then it's all in the delivery. But do you tell us about how important it is the way we talk to ourselves and the fact that we're not our brain generated anxious

thoughts? Yeah, well, I mean, you know all about this, the inner critic that, oh my gosh. And I think we are, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we all have one, but I think we all have one to varying degrees. Mine was pretty nasty and she's now under control. Yeah, mine's worse than yours. See, that's me doing an inner critic. Classic. But yeah, those thoughts of, well, any I should or could be better thoughts or hitting the pillow, I didn't do that right, you didn't do that best, you're not as good as that person, you should be better by now, all those sort of inner critical thoughts. They're so much more damaging than I think we ever realized. To that I would never want to scare someone to think, oh my gosh, I have that inner

critic, am I damaging myself? No, because A, you can rewire away from it. But yeah, just to start to begin to listen how you talk about yourself or think about yourself more importantly, having that moment of stillness to write down your kind of top line thoughts. But yeah, taking out, I mean, I think I used to say the word gangly or goofy to kind of apologise for myself all the time. And actually those words really are powerful. And your brain hears everything you say and think. So you become, I mean, you become what you think in a way, don't you?

So yeah, but I used to, the one trick I was told by an expert who dealt with ME and chronic fatigue was start taking the language of illness and symptoms out of your lexicon because every time you mention Lyme disease or fatigue, it's spooking your brain because fatigue was so horrifying, unless you've had it, it's just impossible to explain. But you literally, I remember at one point looking at a glass of water and just thinking, I don't know how to pick that up. I need water. I literally, that's how what fatigue is. need water. I literally, I mean, that's what fatigue is. And so it's a really frightening condition. So if you can start saying other words, so I now call fatigue Gazelle. And if ever I do have any setbacks still in my health, I'll say to husband, oh, Gazelle's

really bad today. So I'll talk about the opposite sort of sentiment to it. So I think there's a huge power in words. Your final failure is as a singer and dancer. What's your singing and dancing history? is as a singer and dancer. What's your singing and dancing history? Well, so I suppose potentially it's quite unusual for an actor to come on here and not give you a failed audition or a failed something like that because the only... I don't have a fear of failure when it comes to auditions. The only audition that I've ever failed and I'm still bitter, twisted, gnarly and furious and sad about it is middle school choir aged, it must have been 13, maybe 14. I thought I'd be an absolute shoo-in. Didn't get him. Miss Simmons, I think she was called, who was very diminutive, I would have touted over her. So I don't know why she didn't just through fear, by shock just go, yes, you're in. I still remember

her. I think, why didn't you? But it was the shock because I loved singing, wanted to be a singer, or wanted to be able to sing rather. So I thought, you know, I'd like to be able to be an actor and do musicals. So I was so shocked that I didn't get into middle school choir. So gutted. Then I thought, I know I'll audition for the Sixth Form choir, which is called Choral and was very good. Didn't get into that. Still, still sad about that. So that was my proper fail was that I

didn't have an instrument, as singers call their voice, that I thought I had. Then, get this, Discovery, showbiz exclusive. I then get to do a musical. I get to play Miss Hannigan and Annie, but I started doing singing lessons and letting go of the angst of not getting to middle school choir and I was okay. I was definitely okay and it's a character part so I could get away with it. But it wasn't,

I couldn't fully open my voice. I couldn't, I felt this constriction in my throat and the singing teacher was brilliant and he said to me, he told me to stick my tongue out and I did and he said you are completely tongue tied which I knew because me and my friends laugh about my tiny tongue That's the show business. That is I mean, that's the headline. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know where to stick out now Let me switch the story. I've got a really long tongue. Okay, well hilarious Photo opportunity on its way. Yeah, so he said he's come across a lot of people With this thing and it you're so tight in your voice box, your lungs.

It is literally like you have swallowed your tongue, to which I burst out crying. And he said, you're not the first person who's done that either, because it is complete repression. And it is like, and he said, you're also not the first public school person to have experienced this. And so I think what had happened with my eyes is that I am musical and I can sing. And he said, you're also not the first public school person to have experienced this.

And so I think what happened with my, is that I am musical and I can sing, I can hold a tune, I have musicality in me. But my, from a very young age, I had felt like I needed to be quiet. I'd needed to keep those emotions in and repress. And so I had to get a massage during the musical every week to try and keep this voice box open. But I don't know if you can, whether I'm just very, I can hear this sort of, it's just sort of very creaky and it's just very stuck. That is fascinating. It's completely fascinating to me. That loss of voice, that sort of unconscious self-betrayal that is the theme throughout everything we've been talking

about and everything you write about in the book. And it's not our fault. I think it's really important to say that, that actually I uncover the truth of what happens in our childhood and why we sometimes need to suppress ourselves to fit in and belong, and that's vital and necessary. why we sometimes need to suppress ourselves to fit in and belong. And that's vital and necessary and very clever ploy. That's for another, that's for Gabel Mate to tell us all about. For my guest. You love him. So I obviously, that was one of the ways I did it. And here I was sort of in my forties trying to open this voice and being told, no, there was a physiological

effect potentially. I mean, we don't know if that was absolute, but it rang true to me. The fact, I think whenever you burst out in tears, you know it's truth. Yes. And I think one of the things that comes across is that need for you to take up more space, to believe that you're worth that. Yeah. We've come onto the boy, Aqa, your husband. And I would... We danced together, can I just say? Yes, that's right. And he's a drummer, you said.

He's a drummer, so I'm very envious of his musicianship. But there was something about, and I'm not going to give away how you met, because it's the most amazing story and the most incredible payoff for the book. But there was something about the first date that you had with him that was so important in terms of acceptance. Will you tell us that story? Yeah, well, it's very, very, it's very silly, but because I was, I met him sort of halfway through the story of the book. So it was at the point where I was like, okay, unexpectedly to me, this story and this discovery of this time is learning to be honestly who I am and who I

inherently am and how to be a kind, loving version of me. So I think that's basically our purpose is to love and to be kind, and we all do that in our unique different ways. So I was like okay I'm going to I'm not going to say sorry unless I've made you know really need to I'm going to be me I'm not going to rein myself in okay. So I had the opportunity to go on this date and I thought the reason I'm nervous is because I've made a little vow to myself to be honestly myself and so we were chatting all very easy, very fun from the off. And then we get a pizza delivery. And the pizza comes and I'm very, I haven't shied away from saying how excited I am about my pizza because I think pizza is very

exciting. And he found that I'm pleased to say charming. And he was like, yeah, I'm excited about pizza too. But my pizza arrived and it had done that thing of shunting towards that one end. The mozzarella was leaking everywhere, that end of the carb, it sort of flipped a bit, so it looked a bit like a calzone, but I don't like calzones. Don't know why, they're just pizzas halved, aren't they? Yeah, they're too much dough, not a lot of cheese. I don't know what's going on there. So I, in this spirit of just being authentically me, I go off on one. I get full on teenage grumpy.

I'm like, I am so disappointed by this piece. Look, look, look at yours is really nice. Look at mine. What is that? Half a cow's don't know. It's all shunted, the mozzarella. I'm so disappointed. I went on and on and on. He was a bit sort of wide-eyed. He's very shy, sweet, you know,unted the mozzarella. I'm so disappointed. I went on and on and on he was a bit sort of wide-eyed He's very shy sweet, you know, keep the peace But why I died and that this the inner critic came in and went apologize do your thing say sorry I'm an absolute idiot. I don't know what I was doing. I was only joking. I thought no I'm not going to So, you know awful, isn't it?

Thinking also slightly back of my mind first of all problem. Yeah get into perspective privilege, etc but no in that moment, I was pissed off about my and There's a slight moment. He went No, it is Sam. Look at that mozzarella. It's not doing what it should do and I went exactly and I was like we form this most delicious Connection and actually sat eating the pizza in a bit of silence ala the dog loving unconditional presence. But it kick-started the freedom for him and for me to just go, yeah, let's start meeting and connecting if this is going further in this way. Let's not do formal, let's not do small talk, it's not who we are. And then when he did text and say, when should we see each other again?

I was like, okay, well he does like me because I was who I was. I'm probably farted within 10 minutes as well. But it's such a silly example, but it's also really important because I wouldn't have done that before. Yes. Because you have to be how you've got to be on a first date. You've got to be sophisticated and together and pretty. And play games. Ultimately, that's what that is. It's not showing up as yourself. Yeah. Which is a really courageous thing to do in a society that conditions us to be anything but. And I'm so happy for you

that you have found that because you so deserve it. Because you have made so many other people feel fully accepted to show up exactly as they are, many of whom you'll never meet. And I think that's been an incredible act of generosity on your part. And I'm really glad to hear that you found it for yourself because you deserve it. It is lovely. And I'd sort of written a sort of version of it with Gary and Miranda in sitcom. And then I suddenly realized, oh, wow, I was writing what I knew was possible. But for some reason didn't think it was possible for me, didn't think it would ever happen. And then he came along. What are you writing next? What are you going to manifest into your life?

Give me a moment. Come on. You've had 10 years. Yeah. I'm joking. What are you going to manifest into your life through writing now? Give me a moment. Come on, you've had 10 years. Yeah. I'm joking. I don't know actually, I don't know. I've only, I actually finished this book quite recently. So it was one of those when there hasn't been a massive gap before publication. So I haven't had that moment, you know, when you stop another book and go, oh, new ideas are coming. I haven't

had that moment yet and I can't wait. Final question. How is it being back in the public eye? Well, I don't know when this goes out but this is the first piece of work, although this doesn't feel like remotely like work chatting to you in this pink womb. But this is the first thing I've done in years and years talking to you. I'm delighted it's you. So I don't know quite, I'll have to come back and tell you in a month or so what it's like. So I don't know. I feel excited in the main because I know how to manage myself. I know who I am.

I've said no to things that in the past I wouldn't say no to because I'm like, I can't be very say yes to that. Of course, that's a no because that's just not me or I find it too tiring because I've still got some fatigue to manage which is ghastly but also humbling and gives you a real focus to keep being honest with yourself, what's the right thing for you in this time. Without being selfish, but just focusing on recovery and what's important. And I think the more honest you are with yourself, and the more yeses you say that are right for you, and the noes you say are right for you, the more loving you're actually being, instead of doing anything remotely close to people pleasing.

Exactly, because you're actively committed to that rather than being silently resentful. So that is an act of love for yourself but also for others. Yeah, so I'm excited about being in the public eye and being back at my work that I love with this knowledge and with being more freely who I am than I ever thought I needed to be. Well we're so excited to have you back. We'll see what happens. I might go back and live on a farm and go no it's not for me. As a wife though. Not as a farmer remember. He can do, husband can do all the admin side of it. I just play with the chickens. You can be a singing dancing athletic farmer's wife. Yes, yes exactly. I'm attracted with a straw hat. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail and you're about to stay because you're staying on for Fading With Friends.

I can't wait. But you've been the most phenomenal guest. Thank you. Thanks, Naomi. We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell everyone you know. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.