How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Natalie Imbruglia - ‘I love the wisdom of being in my 50s’

Episode Date: June 10, 2026

*triggers: This episode includes discussion of depression and mental health crises. In 1997 Natalie Imbruglia released her first single, Torn, which sold more than 4 million physical copies worldwide. In her homeland of Australia, it became the most played song on the radio, being played an average of 75 times a day over the two decades following its release. She landed a part in Neighbours in 1985, when she was just 16 years old, and stayed on the hugely popular soap for two years before moving to London. Her first album, Left Of Middle, went multi-platinum. Five further albums followed but it wasn’t always easy: in 2009 she took a six-year break from music to concentrate on acting, appearing on stage and in film and also as a judge on the Australian X Factor. Since then, she has released further music, become a mother to a son and won The Masked Singer. Now she returns with her seventh studio album, Algorithm. We talk about how writing this album coincided with the perimenopause, reflect on her time in Neighbours, her experience of dating apps, going through solo IVF to have her son, the sexism she faced in the music industry, plus the wisdom she has found in her 50s. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 03:08 Making Natalie’s new album Algorithm 04:55 Neurodivergence and Menopause 08:59 Death Scrolling 10:47 Dropped by Label 16:07 Neighbors and Rejection 25:35 Dating in Your 30s 27:15 Rejection Builds Clarity 27:37 Choosing Love Over Biology 30:47 IVF Reality Check 34:13 Single Mother Headlines 35:48 Manifesting With Lists 38:11 Living After Torn 43:53 Sexism and Aging Power 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: It doesn't matter who it is, never give your power over to another human being. Never think somebody knows you better than you know yourself. I'm quite good at being the underdog. I find it much scarier to be at the top, waiting to fall off a pedestal. Sometimes the universe is working for you, it just doesn't feel that way at the time. 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Natalie’s latest album, ‘Algorithm’ is to be released on 4th September. Pre-order here: republicofmusic.lnk.to/algorithm Join the How To Fail community: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: www.theelizabethday.substack.com 📚 WANT MORE? Shania Twain - this episode reflects on a childhood marked by poverty, early fame, loss and self-doubt: swap.fm/l/JyU54nvq2muyBpNFq3B9 Lily Allen - talks about failing to be famous, body image, children, marital breakdown, addiction and songwriting: swap.fm/l/8Otj3tpmbH5SF4xjVHTJ 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Guest bookings for How To Fail only come from official @sonymusic.com emails Elizabeth and Natalie answer listener questions in our subscriber series: www.howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Shania Manderson Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Alex Lawless Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I would get asked often, do you think you got to this position because of the way that you look? I'm quite good at being the underdog. I find it much scarier to be at the top, waiting to fall off a pedestal. It's a real weird one for me watching neighbours. I don't know, I have such mixed feelings because I was so young. It doesn't matter who it is, never give your power over to another human being. Never think somebody knows you better than you know yourself. This episode of How to Fail is brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant.

Hello and welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. This is the podcast where we look beneath the bonnet of success and we see the engine of failure and how it motivates us to do ever greater things. Before we get into this conversation, please do remember to subscribe, like and follow so that you never miss a single episode. Hello, I'm M. Ray Bergdorf. I'm Clara Anfo. And welcome to our brand new podcast, Into It.

Very good look at us. We got to go. We've got the 90s. There we go. So we're talking about all things, pop culture, and whatever we are into across music, film, fashion, politics, tech, whatever. If we're into it, we're going to talk about it. And especially if we're over it too. Exactly.

So do make sure you listen. Watch and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Well, hello there. I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. Thank you for being straightforward. And coming up on this week's tape. Something for everyone.

We have reviews of the new live action Masters of the Universe, Scary Movie 6, or as it is also known, Scary Movie, and Savage House with our very special guest. Who is the irrepressible and irreplaceable Richard E. Grant. Yes, Richard Emergency Grant is our special guest

Talking Savage House. Don't miss a single second. In 1998, I took a photograph of Natalie and Brulia to her hairdresser and told him I wanted to cut just like hers. It was perhaps a mark of her cultural impact that I know I was one of many thousands of young women doing exactly the same thing. A year previously, Imbrulia had released one of the seminal singles of the decade, Torn. It sold more than four million physical

copies worldwide. In her homeland of Australia, it became the most played song on the radio, being played an average of 75 times a day over the two decades following its release. In Brunia had started out as an actor, quitting school in a small New South Wales beach town at the age of 16 to pursue her dreams. She landed apart as Builders Labourer Beth Brennan in Neighbours in 1985 and stayed on the hugely popular soap for two years before moving to London. Here she signed her first record deal. Her debut album, left to the middle, went multi-platinum. Five further albums followed, but it wasn't always easy. In 2009, she took a six-year break from music to concentrate on acting,

appearing on stage and in film, and also as a judge on the Australian X Factor. Since then, she has released further music, become a mother to a son, Max, and won the masked singer. Now she returns with her seventh studio album, Algorithm, which, in Brunia says, was by far the most fun I've ever had making a record. And yet she admits it also happened to coincide with the most challenging time I've had with my mental health. This is the beauty of music and artistic expression. You can take something dark and turn it into light. Natalie and Brulia, forever hair inspo.

Welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to have you. And that quote about art enabling you to take something dark and alchemise it to something like is exactly what this podcast is about, taking life's biggest challenges and trying to find the gold in them. Can you tell us a little bit about recording this album and why it was important for you to exercise this?

Well, starting this album coincided with me hitting perimenopause. I think that's really important to mention because I think for about 12 months I was saying I don't feel like myself, I don't feel like myself. So a lot of the things and changes that were happening to me, which affect your personality and how you are in the world, I was bringing into the writing room. So I'd turn up with, I work with male songwriters, coincidentally, mainly. And so I'd walk in there and start telling them what's been going on at work

and what I've been struggling with. I find what's improved my songwriting is just sharing and being really open. So the first day of songwriting, we don't really write a song, we just talk. And in doing that, it allows the whole room to kind of share. And so a lot of the songs on this album, but with a sense of humor, are dealing with things that I was going through with my mental health related to neurodivergence, which I think shows up more at that stage of your life. So the seriousness of what I was dealing with went into the songs,

but you would never know listening to the songs because they're really uplifting and really upbeat. And I think that's the beauty of it is that music can take quite serious things and still have them be uplifting. But if you are in your bedroom alone and you really pay attention to what the person's singing about, there's another layer to it and another layer to it. But if you just want to have a dance, you can do that too.

Yeah, I have to say it is a total bop, the album, apart from anything else. I want to come back to the album in a second, but it's so interesting what you say there about neurodivergence and when it shows up. I had a very good friend be diagnosed with a neurodivergence in her menopausal years. And she said that she was told by the medical professional that very often with women it shows up when you have a big hormonal shift. So when you're a teenager, when you're pregnant or when you're going through menopause. Yes. I never knew that.

Neither did I, until it happened to me. How did it happen for you? What started happening that made you think? Really bad anxiety, really short fuse with my temper. And before a show, I get really hypersensitive, like, to the sound of, like, paper rustling or whatever. So that became almost like a superpower in a way, because it's good to point out that all of the things that are really bad before the show is, actually what makes me an incredible performer. And I do actually see them as a benefit.

But before the show, whilst it's happening, I think it's not so much what's happening because you become hypersensitive to questions, any kind of processing becomes harder. And then your reactions can be misunderstood. And the worst part about it is not actually my behaviour. It's how I speak to myself and how I treat myself about it. There's a lot of shame around it. And I kept trying to fix it with willpower.

I was like, I can't be like this. I need to, you know, I want to be like Bono before a show and just be relaxed and have everyone around. And it's just not me. It's just not how I, it's not my preparation process. And obviously that got a lot, a lot, I don't want to say worse, but just more intense. It kind of turned up at that stage of my life. So I'm going to do that thing that is probably quite annoying when interviewers do, but I'd love to quote some of your lyrics. Okay. So there's that track, Who Dim the Lights? That's about peri menopause.

Okay. I'm so related. As a peri menopause, a woman, who dim the lights, who stole the sound, who changed the key, you kidnapped me. I'm way off track. There's nothing here. Can't find my way back. And then later, love is who we are.

Lately, it's been hard to remember. I'm crawling in the dark. Maybe I'll be crawling forever. I'm unraveling. Oh, it's making me emotional. I'm not surprised. Yeah. I mean, so deep those lyrics.

But when you listen to the song, it's so light, right? Isn't that the beautiful thing of music and how, because we don't want to bring people down. And I think for a long time, I'd write songs that were quite melancholic. And I think there's, it's so nice to figure out a way of getting important messages across, but also have the music be uplifting. But yeah, that song was, I mean, the guys. I've been working with. Can you imagine perimenopausal woman turning up every day to work and just pouring out everything

that I was going through? I'm a very open person and part of how I process things is to share at a dinner party, any inappropriate situation. I'll just start talking about it. I don't want there to be any shame around it and there shouldn't be. And knowledge is power and also just being brave because it's not our fault that these changes are happening and it happens to every single woman. Well, I think you were probably doing a public service going to speak to all of those men

every single day about what it's actually like. So thank you very much. How are you now? Have you got the help that you need so that you no longer feel that you're crawling through the dark? Well, I'm on HRT. That's a massive help. But I don't think it's a straight line and I'm still in it. I would say I'm still in it mentally with the struggles that I have. but yeah I'm a work in progress but I definitely feel I don't feel in the dark anymore about it

great it's called algorithm the album how aware are you of the change in music and the demand for music to be algorithmically sort of shaped I have no idea

you have no idea why did you call it algorithm because that song is about my addiction to scrolling on my phone. Right. Death scrolling, I like to call it. And you'll be looking for the bad stuff? I'm not looking for it, but that's what the algorithm does. It puts it in front of you.

I'm the person who opens the trapdoor that you shouldn't open and go, oh, how weird is that? Yes. I'm just going to follow that and see where that leads. Other people change their settings and say, I don't want to be shown that. No, I don't know how to work at, haven't bothered to figure it out, Just let the phone and the algorithm take me to very dark places.

I can't even say out loud what's on my discovery page. But I think it's an interesting topic, isn't it? It is. It's fascinating. And what's on my Instagram for you page at the moment, you're going to laugh, is the Bixie haircut because it's basically the Natalie and Brulia haircut. It was a very popular haircut. It was a very popular haircut. And it's back again.

It is, isn't it? It is. And baggy trousers. Yes. I've worn these in tribute to you today. I'm wearing them on stage again and shorts and the tomboy look. How do you feel about the 90s being back? I love it.

Yeah, so do I. It's probably allowed me another 10 years of my career. So I'm very excited. It's working for me personally. But I think it was a great fun, positive time. And a lot of great things were going on with Brit pop and music. So, yeah, it's just a really, it's happy memories for me, the 90s. Okay, let's get on to your failures.

There's a lot here, and I mean that with love. Every single failure you've given me, it's sort of three in one. So your first failure is being dropped by your label and then following that rejection as an actress. Yeah. Tell us when you were dropped by your label. I can't quote the years because I have no idea of time

and I can't remember, but it was when the record industry was changing and streaming was starting. And my record label was merging. but they ended up only releasing it in Australia and New Zealand and they just dropped me after five years of working on it and yeah it was really a shock because I'd had a lot of success already

and yeah what are you doing a situation like that? I believed that the universe was telling me I'm not supposed to be singing. I feel like I was working harder and trying harder than the first album which did so well And I was like, this is how, the universe is telling me something, you know, forget your ego and pay attention. And I really, really believe that. I think I had a bit of a nervous breakdown.

I went to Australia. And I still stand by the decision sometimes to walk away from something. I think it's a courageous thing to do if you're, if you've lost the passion for it. if it's a crisis like that, I think it's a very healthy thing to do. I always had in the back of my mind that because of what happened with music, I didn't get to pursue a film career, which is what I came to England to do in the first place. So I went to America after the nervous breakdown and a lot of swimming in the Australian ocean.

I went to L.A. and studied with Ivano Chubbock and wanted to, to take on acting quite seriously. And she's a famed acting teacher. She's fantastic. And I really loved studying with her. I really loved class. But being an out-of-work actor in Hollywood at that age, I was like, I don't have 10 years in me to do this

to not get a job. But what it did do and the positive out of it was I started to remember the gift of the tone of my voice. I started to think about not ending up on an editing room floor that with what I do, I can, you know, I'm the director of my own story and nobody else can tell that my story the way that I can. So I came back to it with such a sense of myself. And I thought if I'm singing to two people in a pub,

it's what I was born to do. This is my gift. And so I think that's the lesson in it is that if I hadn't left, I might still be trying to please people, still be doing it the wrong way. So sometimes the universe is working for you. It just doesn't feel that way at the time. And I think this was your fourth album.

So I think it's around 2009 that we're talking about. I'm going to trust you. Let's trust you. Let's trust you. And Wikipedia, because I have no idea. I'm very struck there by the conflict between your artistry and the industry in which you found yourself. It feels to me, having done the research for this interview, that you were really badly treated and very underestimated a lot of the time. Is that fair to say?

I would say that's fair. I would get asked often, do you think you got to this position because of the way that you look? and I wasn't allowed to be angry. So I had to kind of outsmart the system and go, okay, how do I, with sweet smile, get around this questioning? And I was actually married to an Australian musician who was very successful. And often we'd be going through questions of interviews and say, oh, you should say that.

And I'm like, I can't. You can say that, but I'm a woman. I can't be ironic or funny in print. It'll just get twisted around. So I had that a lot, but I'm not really bitter. about that. I think that I'm just grateful that those things have changed. I think the industry has changed a lot. We've still got a long way to go. But yeah, I was subjected to a lot. It's also a symptom of success. I think you have to acknowledge that Torn was so successful

overnight. And I was a soap star. So a lot of people were like, oh yeah, come on, show us what you made of. So I could also process and understand what was driving some of that. And I turned that into ambition. I'm quite good at being the underdog. I kind of, I like that fire in your belly. I find it much scarier to be at the top waiting to fall off a pedestal. Yes, it can be powerful sometimes being an underdog because you can turn that underestimation into motivation. Let me show you. Yes. Yeah.

Now, can we chat about neighbours a little bit? Of course. I was one of the generation. Oh, thank you. You're my favourite guest. I was one of the generation that rushed home from school to see neighbours 535pm every day. Loved it so much. And I was reminded all over again by how important it was to me because I've just watched the Kylie documentary on Netflix.

And what a stable for talent that was. What was the experience like for you of being Beth? Well, I loved it. I mean, I like everyone else in my homeland, was obsessed with Kylie and Jason and sat in my living room and was just like, I want to be on that show. That's what I want to do. So to get offered a guest role and then immediately after that get offered a contract to be a character on the show, I was like, that's it.

I mean, I've made it. And I moved interstate, I think I was 16 and a half. I moved out of the family home to Melbourne. And it was just the most incredible opportunity because I'm from a very small town about three hours north of Sydney. So to break away from the suburbs and be doing what I love.

I actually made a list. I made a list. And it said, I'm going to be on East Street. neighbors are home and away, the three soap operas that were on. Then I'm going to be a pop star and a movie star. Tick, tick, tick. I wrote that list.

Well, I mean, Johnny English, sorry. I was going to say, check out the bad accents on that one. Oh, you were great on it. I don't know if I'm the best actress, but you could say that box was ticked. I mean, it was great, but I was also a child. Yeah. And I didn't think I was. So I was moved into an apartment

And I remember a runner came to get me to go to go shopping For groceries and I was fronting But I didn't know how to shop So we're walking through the aisles with this trolley And I'm going, oh, I'll have that, I'll have that And I was like, I don't know It took a lot of years for me to realize How out of my depth I was

Because I didn't really want to believe that I wanted to be a grown-up I was always pushing the boundaries What age do you think you were when you had those realizations? When I saw my niece at 17. Right. And saw myself in her and thought about the situations I was put in and put myself in. And that made me like, wow, you know, I'm glad that I survived and that I'm okay.

That's a lot for a 16 and a half year old. I don't think, I do think some people are born able to deal with those situations better. And I was definitely one of those. I wouldn't say I'm completely a victim of that. I had a lot of drive and a lot of confidence and could put myself in situations that maybe other people at that age wouldn't be able to handle. And I also had tough parents. They weren't showbiz parents.

So they were supportive. But my mom was like, well, you know, we have other children still living at home. We're not going to come down, be able to come down and visit you very often. I think they came twice the whole time I was there. I was like, that's fine. Because I was ready to not have to have the restrictions of parents at home. I was the rebel. It was a good time.

It was a happy time. As a teenager, we're so often experimenting with different identities and finding out who we really are. What's that like when you have the experience of seeing yourself on screen? It's a real weird one for me watching neighbours. I don't know. I have such mixed feelings because I was so young. So there's grown up.

that just wants to give little Nat a hug, but also just remembering the buzz of what it felt like to have an opportunity like that. I mean, I was, my opportunities were very limited. Berkeley Val is a very small town, Sydney's two hours away. It's very parochial, so you're either a surfer chick or a goth. There wasn't a lot of options. And so figuring out how to become a star, which is what I wanted to do and get out was like a really big deal.

So there was a lot of joy. So fast forward to these years in L.A. When you described yourself self-deprecatingly as an out-of-work actor, what was that rejection like? Oh, my goodness, terrible. Because I'd had this career and I had accolades and I'd be halfway to receive. in an audition and they would say, okay, thank you. It's like, I'm not finished yet. And I've spent two weeks prepping, you know, soul destroying,

credit to all actors and actresses for, you know, what they are able to do. I think it's extraordinary. I don't think people really understand the depths of the rejection you have to go through to be an actor. It's quite brutal. And there's the physical, you know, know how you look and what size you are and all of those things that factor into it. But just having to learn scripts, I've got ADHD and probably undiagnosed dyslexia.

So trying to learn the lines for auditions. I mean, they want you to be doing five in a day. It would take me two weeks to prep for one because also I'm a perfectionist. So I'd have to kind of get one scene perfect. It was too much for me. But those ears, as you said, taught you about the value of communication and how adept you are at it. So do you feel that you're at the stage now where it doesn't matter how big your audience is? It matters that you have that one-on-one meaning for someone who listens to your music.

I think for a long time I was trying to be the best songwriter because then I would gain some kind of respect. and the gift was, oh, when I realized, I'm giving my power over as well. Like every writing session, I'd be like, oh, that's a great idea. And in my head, I'm thinking I would never say that. It doesn't matter who it is. Never give your power over to another human being. Never think somebody knows you better than you know yourself. And understanding that and taking my power back when I went back to it and recognizing that,

My gift is as a communicator. So when you're not motivated to then be the best songwriter, just be the best you, best version of you and fully embrace that, that's really empowering and not needing to arrive somewhere, not trying to get to the top of the charts, being content with singing to a small audience because maybe I change one life. You know, that is very empowering. And that came directly from walking away and having a nervous breakdown.

and feeling like a failure. So great to hear and it's everything that I believe. So thank you for sharing that. Thank you for doing this podcast. I think it's extraordinary. I really do. Thank you. That means a lot to be truly.

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Shopify.com.com.com. Well, hello there. I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. Thank you for being straightforward. And coming up on this week's tape. Something for everyone. We have reviews of the new live action masters of the universe, scary movie 6, or as it is also known, scary movie, and Savage House with our very special guest, who is the irrepressible and irreplaceable Richard E. Grant. Yes, Richard Emergency Grant is our special guest talking Savage House. Don't miss a single second. Fabio Semantilly.

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Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening Today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, add free. Your second failure, it's something else that we have in common. We both got divorced in our 30s. And I'm so glad you're going to talk about it because it's such a difficult time to be single. If you are a cis straight woman and you want to have children, which both you and I did, tell me about this time and why you've chosen it as a failure that you want to talk about. about it. Well, I mean, I just didn't think it was going to be an issue once I had healed the wounds

and been single for a period of time after my divorce, which is important. When I was ready to, I just assumed that would be very straightforward. I guess in my 20s there were a lot of offers and I couldn't get arrested. I mean, I just could not. No, I could not. Had a lot of dates. It's had a lot of fun, but to try and find a partner to settle down with, impossible. You don't have to go into details, but why did you get divorced? I think we were quite young, both in the industry, and there was just a lot of challenges that we didn't see coming and grew in different directions, you could say. I got divorced when I was 35, so I was in my late 30s when I started dating for. the first time when it and that was like the era I was a bit younger than that okay and there

weren't apps I'm guessing at this time oh they were just coming in yeah and I remember feeling that because I was in the public eye I was left out of the social experiment so I was like I'm going to go one of these apps I want to go one of these apps so I did what happened well people thought I was catfishing them so that didn't work out either if there's anyone going through being single in their 30s right now. And they're having a similar experience where, as you say, you can't get arrested. What advice would you give them now from this perspective?

I think it's to do with the biological clock and it being impossible for a woman to hide, to hide that she wants that now. I want to be a mother. Why should she? But at the same time for a man, who wants to provide, they're instantly confronted on the first date with stepping up.

So I think recognizing that it's not your fault, it's nothing that you are doing wrong, and recognizing that it's very confronting for a man in this cis situation to kind of, oh, I've now got to step up and provide, and they're not necessarily going to feel ready to do that. very few men are going to be like straight in, you know, I think it's more comfortable to think, you know, we'll just see what happens and there's more time. But for a woman of a certain age, it's like, well, I don't have time. And so I don't know what advice I could give. I guess just know that it's not, it's not about you. There's nothing wrong with you. Because I really, it was bad for my confidence. Yes. I think. It was really bad for my confidence.

I hear you and that's... Is that your experience? Great advice. It was my experience. It taught me a lot, a bit like you were saying about the rejections you experienced as an actor. Actually, the rejection I experienced when I was dating was a good long term for making me understand what I wanted. Right, okay. It was kind of helpful date acquisition.

Not that, not that, not that. Not that. Not that. And I went through this period. I really wanted to have. children and it didn't work out for me. But at this point in my late 30s, I realized that for me personally, it was more important to have a relationship. I wanted to have children within a loving relationship, but the relationship came first. And I had lots of amazing friends who would say,

why don't you just go it alone and go the sperm donor route? But I'd had fertility issues, so it wasn't as straightforward. And that was really clarifying. And I do think that there's always a nugget of key information. That's the wisdom in it. Yes. Yes. The things that go wrong actually really help you identify how to get closer to the thing that will work for you. A hundred percent. So you didn't have the voice. See, I prayed to God that the yearning to be a mother would be taken away. You didn't have it. So you got clarity that that's not the most important thing. But I still had the yearning, but it wasn't as extreme as I know it is for so many women and perhaps for you as well.

And I did find a lovely man who I'm now married to and he's got three kids. So I get to show up as a mother in different ways. But you're right that it wasn't, I just had to be really honest to myself. It wasn't as important to me, even though it was really, really important. That's clarity.

That's clarity. And I do think once again, the universe is working for you, not against you. Yes. Whilst you're going through a period of time and it's public knowledge that, you know, the route that I took with IVF and that I'm a single parent. But for me, I just was like, I can't believe this is happening to me and how long it's going on for. And this is unnatural.

Like there were things about it that was, that I was really struggling with. But when you meet your child, that's like the divine timing for it to be that child and the rings of fire that I had to jump through, I would do a thousand times over. But you don't know, it's a retrospective thing. So what I've learned in life, anytime I'm going through any kind of a struggle, is to think about all the times in my life previous that I've been struggling and the nugget of gold that came because of that. I don't know about you, but the periods of my life where I really struggled,

I remember I have visceral memories of everything about that time. It's like everything comes into clarity. All the accolades and incredible things that have happened to me, it's foggy. But those periods of time where you're struggling, it's a turning point. It's like the beginning of, it's the seed of what's to come. And so I look back most fondly on those periods of my life. And I think that's good for people, especially people who are younger to know and to hold on to. That sitting here now, they're beautiful memories.

Such great wisdom there, Natalie. Thank you. For anyone who doesn't know your story, I'd love to talk to you about the process of IVF and what got you to the stage of deciding that you wanted to do that, what the process itself was like for you, because I've done IVF myself. Yeah. It's pretty challenging. brutal. And after saying, ask me anything, I don't go. Sorry. There's one thing I don't go too far into

just because of my son. Of course. Because I feel like he's not old enough to make that decision for himself. But what I will say is that it's really important to educate yourself and to ask a lot of questions and for women to share because there's a lot that I didn't know or understand about that process and there's a lot of trauma involved along the process of learning things that someone could have told me. In fact, I remember when I found out I was pregnant, the one thing in my mind was every woman on the planet who was still waiting. Oh, it makes me emotional to find out. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for carrying that emotion for all of us who've been through it. It's so precious. Yeah. It's really, really is.

And I'm so happy that it worked out the way that it has for you and that you get to be a mother in this way to your beautiful son. I actually wanted to ask you because I know that you're one of four girls. Yeah. What has mothering a son taught you? Oh, gosh. We are so complicated. Men are so straightforward.

I think there are obviously a sweeping generalization. but I love the differences of us because I imagine having to deal for me personally with a girl would be so much harder. I don't know, there's something really sweet. I can only speak on my experience because I haven't, I don't have a daughter. So I don't want to say it's better.

But the relationship between a son and a mother is a beautiful thing. You know, one of the things that I found out when I went to get HRT, is the brilliant gynecologist said to me, after looking at my records, what do you've had HRT before? So what do you mean? She said, what do you've had IVF and fertility treatment?

And those are the hormones they put you on. Did you not know? No, I'd not make the connection. I was like, oh my gosh, no wonder I was feeling all of these feelings at the time I was going through it. Yeah, very interesting. And you're so right that sharing information is how.

It's also the in between is the hub. It's the free fall that they don't prepare you for. They don't kind of wean you off of it. It's just like, sorry, it didn't work and then stop. Yes. And you've got this whole period of time that you have to pull yourself together. And they don't really speak about that. I don't think you're mentally prepared for that.

So true. And the two-week wait that you have before finding out where your point is is pretty tough. Really tough. It's the longest time you'll ever experience. I think I would just say, make sure you. are really well informed and that you talk to women who've been through it. Because there is a lot that the doctors won't tell you. And don't go through it on your own.

Agreed. Yeah, have some really good friends that you can call and who can help you through it. Because it's, it's, yeah, it can be quite lonely, can't it? You very. Oh, and also, I think it's really interesting that people frame it or they did with me that somehow I'd chosen this over being with a man. And for all the men out there, that's absolute rubbish. Like, it wasn't some kind of, I don't need a man or, you know, women can do this and not have a man in their life.

Like, it really upset me some of the headlines that were put, because that was not the case. We just find ourselves in a situation where there's a biological clock and, you know, a decision. needs to be made and thank God for medicine that we're able to to have that option because women before us didn't have that option so yeah yeah just wanted to say that for the men because it makes me really sad that that's just really not fair on men to say that that it was a choice like that do you care about having a man now no the ultimate liberation I'm saying that I hate that at the moment and I don't mean I don't want to have a man

I just mean I'm a single parent I'm a working mom I'm going through the change it's just how would I fit that in I don't think it would be fair on a man at the moment to imagine what they would have to deal with like there's just nothing left to give

okay when you're ready if you ever are I hope I am my advice is to write a list the same way that you wrote your list saying that you want to be an actor and a movie star and a singer. I wrote a list before I met my now husband and in fact I've written two lists. You manifested it. Yes.

My mother has a witchy friend. Her name is Lizzie, obsessed with her. And she said, when I got divorced, she was like, you need to write a list of what you're looking for and then you need to write it in ink on a piece of paper and then you need to set it alight and you scatter the ashes. And it's basically all of the elements. There's water, earth, the one that I always forget. And I did that after I got divorced

and I put lots of detail in it. Now, the detail I didn't put in it was age, okay? Okay. And this lovely young man came along. He was nine years younger than me and didn't work out because we were at different life stages. So then I was like, I'm not going to make that mistake again. You did another list?

I did another list. This is nice two years on. I did another list. This is brilliant. And I remember. As you were saying, you remember where you are in the really tough times. I remember exactly where I was. I was in L.A.

I was about to launch this podcast. I just had the idea of how to fail. I wrote this incredibly detailed list. I put age in there. I put everything about how I wanted him to speak to me, all of that. Did the same thing, scattered it in Los Fiedas. And that was November. And in March, I met my husband.

And I took a photo of the list before I burnt it. And he met every single one of the criteria. Wow. That's what I think you should do. Where were you in my 30s to tell me that? I know. I should have written a list. I'm going to try that.

Do it now, though, because in a way, you've done the things that you most wanted to do. And now... I miss the companionship for sure. It's totally in your future. But there's a mum a bear thing that happens. It's weird. It's not like becoming a mother is a replacement.

But there's also a protective thing that you get. And I think the fact that if I choose wrong and that person's then taken. away from him, that's the part of it for me. Yes. I think that's what scares me more than anything to do with me. And also, I mean, if you looked at my schedule, I just, yeah. Okay.

It's all about career right now. It's all about this new album. Great. You know, if it happened, that would be wonderful. But I don't need it to feel fulfilled. Your final failure is second album syndrome. And this is explicitly. to the success of Torn.

Yes. I mean, as I say in the intro, Torn was a massive global hit. It was. Yeah. Did you expect it when you were singing it and when you were doing that iconic video with Jeremy Sheffield. Did you have a feeling in your heart?

Yes. Is he single? He bats for the other team. Oh, does he? Okay. For me. Fine. Yeah.

Okay. Did you have a tingly feeling in your synapses that it was going to be as big as it was? No. No, in fact, I remember... I remember shooting that video and I don't know if anyone knew, but I just was concerned that I

suddenly hadn't done the performance of the song and realized I hadn't practiced in front of a mirror and I'm a stage school kid. And I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't thought about. how I'm delivering the song to the camera and being an actress. I was like, I haven't even considered what I'm going to do. And this sounds so crazy, but all I was worried about was don't look like a trained dancer.

So that's why I'm kind of flailing my arms around and I think the legs are involved and I was trying to look really indie. And I just think that is so sweet that I didn't want to look like a stage school kid. So it was just like, you know, that was it. And then it connected visually, the video, the song, like all the stars aligned. And it broke itself in America. It got leaked to K-Rock, which is a radio station in America that's played a lot of rock music. And this was a pop song.

I mean, it was bizarre. I'd done a lot of spiritual work just before that, a lot of meditation. And I had it. I was quite grounded. because I'd already been successful, lost all my money, and kind of had to kind of get myself together after the whole neighbours thing. And kind of, that's why I started songwriting. Right.

So that's when I found meditation, which was fixing my panic attacks. How did you lose all your money? Sorry, to interrupt. I was doing appearances. I couldn't get a visa to work as an actress. Right. So I didn't know what to do for the first time in my life. And so I was just going out and...

In London. And doing appearances and then do another appearance because Neighbors was shown two years after I came off air. So there's like a two-year window where I was on the television and just thinking, I would have a workout or work out and then it didn't work out, which again was a blessing because I started songwriting. And I realized the moment this song took off. You're going to be singing this song forever. and you could view it as you're in the shadow of this song or you can focus on everything positive about being a part of something this that's connected with this many people.

And it's literally a choice we can make. And I just vowed to make friends with Torn and yeah, find the joy in it, which I still have held on to. But quite cool that I realized that as it was happening. Very cool. So I was like, okay, I'm going to scoop up. up all these awards and just enjoy every second of it because it might not happen again. And pretty much it hasn't in the sense that I won pretty much every award you can win in one

year. Yeah. It would have been nice if it was stretched out a little bit. But I mentally prepared myself. What happens when you're in a restaurant and torn comes on? Oh gosh, I find that really awkward. I get really embarrassed still. Sometimes they put it on because they think I want to hear it.

And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, it's okay. You don't have to put my song on. Do people come up to you and talk to you about it? About torn. Sometimes, not as much as they did in 98. And that was a lot. I moved out to Windsor and hid and got agoraphobia. And it was a very intense time because I was like, I'm not that good everyone.

Everyone just relax. I've got to write a second album here. You could just all calm down. So the success was, like we talked about falling from a pedestal. I was like, I've got to live up to this thing. And you decided that about me. And I don't think that about me. I'm really insecure.

So that second album was the hardest album I've written. But that's when I was doing a lot of meditation and the intention behind it was very pure. And I would say that more people come up to me about that second album. 10 years later, because it got absolutely slated. I mean, the first single didn't even have a chorus, but I love it. There's a stream of consciousness, which is so me, to go the opposite way. You're not going to get torn.

You're not even going to get a chorus. More people refer to that album that it saved their life. The gift comes. You just got to trust yourself, trust the process. And so that's, I've been rewarded. Okay, maybe not at the time. It was written off, but it also gave me. me the freedom to songwrite and create without everyone staring at me and feeling

and so that's not for everyone. That kind of pressure is not for everyone. Do you think there was a fair amount of sexism at play because Torn was a cover and then you, I feel, were possibly underestimated as a songwriter. Do you think there was sexism at play there? Yes, and there was somebody who kind of stirred that whole thing up, but I don't really want to, I don't really want to say and kind of drag the whole thing up again. I don't know who that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

We don't have to. There was a point made about the fact that I didn't write that song that didn't help. But definitely sexism and 100%. 100%. There's so many artists that don't get asked that question over and over and over and over again. I've had three covers on pretty much every single album I've done. up until more recently, I'm absolutely proud of that fact.

It's actually hard to find a cover song that you fit with like I did with Torn. It's very unusual, which is why I write, because my gift is communication. So trying to find someone else's words that express how you feel is very hard. Because I'm so aware that we're talking about the 90s

with such love, and there is so much love to have for it, and I'm so thankful that I got to exist through that decade of the best music and analogue existence, all of that. But there was a sexist toxicity to it. And I wonder if you feel looking back that you're a survivor of that decade as well as being someone who celebrates it. 100%. I also think you can be a victim of something

or you can go, how do I out smart the system? You know, and a powerful woman finds a way of a way of, around that, a workaround. I think that's something to be proud of. And it's great that young women don't have to do as many workarounds. But I think it's very clever in it, when the industry was doing that, that I found a way to answer those questions because initially it was just like difficult, she's difficult, she's this, she's that, because I didn't want to wear a dress for a particular photo shoot and the journalist was watching and observing. And I was dysmorphic. I didn't like my body. And I'd been objectified in the process.

past with a photo shoot and with neighbours swimming costumes. I just didn't like it. But the heading was about me being difficult, you know, because I just didn't want to wear the dresses. So even things like that, which is why I just encourage, I think there's a lot more role models now of women who are just able to be who they are because of the environment has shifted. But it's still there and I just think, you know, you have to.

Be brave and as a woman, be willing to put your foot down and have a boundary and say, no. I'm not doing that. I'm not just saying this, but you do look exactly the same. And I can't believe you have reached your 50s. I'm sweating so much over here. Honestly, I can't. It's quite something. How does it feel being in your 50s?

I love it. That's one thing. when I went to Hollywood, people would tell me, don't say how old you are. And that made me really angry. I made a point of every dinner party I'd go to, I would say how old I was. Again, it's a choice. If you're going to make it weird, it will be weird, and it'll be a problem for you. Very young, that was put on me about the way that I look.

I love the wisdom of being in my 50s. It's so liberating. I mean, often it's women that give women a hard time. about how we dress and how we look. And, you know, often we're doing it for other women, I think, because women can be more critical. And to other women and to ourselves, when you turn 50, you just don't give a, you know what? It's really empowering that all of that falls away.

And maybe that's because there's the next generation coming up through. But then great, I don't really mind why. I just feel like there's so much wisdom for me that's come with age. Natalie Brulia, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom today and for being your rebellious, unique self and bringing the euness of you to everything that you do. And I wish you all the best of the new album. You don't need it. It's great.

But thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening and watching. This episode has been brought to you by Dove Whole Body Deodorant. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.