How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Nick Grimshaw - 'I told The Guardian I was gay before I told my parents'

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Broadcaster and author Nick Grimshaw joins Elizabeth to talk about failing his maths GCSE, failing his business and communications degree, his failure to be present, and failing at New Year’s resolutions. Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I used to hate the week before a period. It was that crushing existential sense that I was really, really depressed and then I'd actually get my period and it would all make sense. The spots, the fatigue, the hot flushes, the cravings, the sugar cravings were extreme. Now however, it's easier to manage PMS with Estro Control. Estro Control is a formula developed by Happy Mammoth, a supplement company dedicated to making women's lives easier. Estro control contains science-backed herbal extracts that help support hormonal health, especially in women who suffer from PMS.

The ingredients help support the liver, and that's where our hormones get processed, especially estrogen. So when the estrogen isn't processed well in the liver, women may start having PMS, spots on the skin, they get cravings, and they feel low all of a sudden. Estro control is made specifically for women who are perimenopausal, so it's perfect for women that haven't entered menopause yet. Listeners, you can get your first bottle of estro control for 15% off if you use the code FAIL on the checkout page.

Go to happymammoth.com and enter the promo code FAIL on the checkout page. Go to happymammoth.com and enter the promo code FAIL on the checkout page. Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that firmly believes that failing better can help us succeed better too. Before we get to my wonderful guest, just a reminder about my subscriber podcast Failing With Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and offer advice on some of your failures too. Here's a bit of Nick Grimshaw to pique your interest. Forget it. You deserve better. Stop wasting your energy on this. Do send your failures in to get advice from one of my esteemed guests. Follow the link

in the podcast notes, or look out for my callouts once a month on Instagram for quickfire questions. Thank you so, so much. When Nick Grimshaw was 13, he was taken from his hometown of Oldham to London by his dad to watch a football match. The teenage Grimshaw persuaded his father to take a detour so they could look through the windows of the BBC Radio 1 offices. As he told his dad with great conviction, that's where he was going to present the breakfast show when he grew up. And it turned out exactly to plan. After studying Communication and Media Studies at the University of Liverpool, Grimshaw started as an intern for MTV.

By 2007, he joined Radio 1 to host the station's youth strand, he rose through the ranks, and by 2012 was at the helm of The Breakfast Show. His six-year tenure was marked both by the fact he was the show's first gay presenter and by his ability to broadcast live even after having been out all night with celebrity pals like Alexa Chung or Harry Styles. His memoir, Soft Lad, even revealed the time Lady Gaga asked his parents if her tit-tape was on straight. It's an authenticity that has made Grimshaw, or Grimmy as he's known, feel like the nation's friend. Whether he's on Gogglebox with his niece Liv, hosting the Dish podcast with chef Angela Hartnett, or side tracked with his old mate Annie Mack, his humour and kindness is always inclusive

rather than mocking. The great thing about my job, he has said, was the more I was myself, the better the reaction. Nick Grimshaw, welcome to How to Fail. Oh, thank you. Thanks for that intro. It's a pleasure. Wow, it was like I died. Well, don't speak too soon. Maybe. Maybe.

Maybe this will be a podcast first and you'll die on it. Yeah, fingers crossed. It's such a pleasure to have you here. We've been trying for a while. I've been on the dish. Most fun I've ever had in podcast four. We loved you on that. That was fun because it was a Friday too. It was a Friday. It was a Friday. And you made me the best vodka martini I think I've ever tasted. It's really good.

I wanted to end on that quote about realizing that the more yourself you were, the more accepted you were, because I think it's such a powerful concept, and it's definitely something that I have felt doing this podcast. And I wonder where you realized that? When did you realize that that sort of authenticity went hand in hand and with acceptance? I think when I was writing my book, which was two years ago now, it was the first time I'd like stopped and thought back about myself, not really thought about my life or like who am I? What, you know, what are my thoughts on things? So it was the first time that I'd sort of stopped to take stock and think back. And I thought way back to, you know, I really sat one day in my kitchen and tried to remember like my earliest memories. And I'd like practice every day to try and like zone back

and remember childhood or remember like, where did I first listen to the radio? Or when did I first hold my mom's hand? And I was like trying to like transport myself back all the time. So I'm quite bad at remembering stuff. And I remembered quite a lot at school, once I realized I was, I was gay when I was at school. I think I spent a lot of time trying to disguise that, so not be

myself. So I think you sort of live in like a double life, and one is you're like, I'm gay, and then the other one is just this like, what I thought like a straight man behaved like. So I thought about that a lot, and I was like, I'm gay. And then the other one is just this, like, what I thought, like, a straight man behaved like. So I thought about that a lot. And I was like, wow, that must have been quite complicated and weird to, for my brain to have, like, this almost facade of this character. And to try and talk about football or to try and talk about FHM. I had to come by FHM and be like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. JANET Oh, nice street honeys. specifically, like, what did I like? And I was drawn to people that were, I think,

unapologetically themselves, like Sarah Cox. And I remember listening to her when I was going to college and just being like, I just like her. She sounded like someone I could have been in college with. You know, she was going out with her friends at the weekend, maybe a bit hungover on the Monday. And I really related to it. And I think it was her honesty that I connected with.

And then when I started doing radio and tele a few years later, when I was like probably like 22, 23, I was really nervous, obviously, because you're in this like weird situation where there's cameras and a microphone and it's, you know, quite natural really. But I just found when I was myself more, I, it was easier to do that job. That's so powerful. I read somewhere that the partying that I mentioned in the introduction in your Radio One breakfast show days was important for you in terms of that journey of acceptance. Yeah, I think so. I think it was. I think I always felt like the odd one out at school maybe. So I think I'd never felt like I fitted in until I left school and had, you know, was probably going out. Yeah, it was when I felt really accepted because we all had this passion of clubbing essentially.

You mentioned FHM and football and your sexuality. Can you tell us the David Beckham poster story? Oh, yeah. So basically, I grew up going to Catholic schools. And so I had this sort of like guilt about being gay. And I was like, I'd pray to be like, cured or like, why me? I'd be like, no, I don't want to be gay. I'd pray for it to be like, you know, taken away from me. And I remember thinking, look, if I try actively to be heterosexual, maybe it'll budge over a bit. Plot ruiner, it didn't. I remember being like, well, if I go and like get into football, like if I remember like trying to sit and watch it and like like it and copy like, you know, the way my brother and dad were sat watching it. And I remember going to get a football

magazine and I thought, well, I'll just learn about this. I'll just learn heterosexuality from shoot magazine. It was a really unnatural read to me because I didn't care. I was really trying to force it in. So it felt like a bit like homework. And then I remember flicking through and seeing a picture of David Beckham, like post-match, I think with a cup, so he'd won something. And he was playing for Man United and I was like, just totally transfixed and like drawn into it. And I think I was too young, or maybe I didn't even realize I fancied him. I didn't know what it was, but I just knew that I like was like, wow. It was like almost like a magic eye picture where you're sort of just like drawn in.

And I remember showing it to my mom and saying, can I put this on my bedroom wall? My mom being like, go and ask your dad. Cause it was like, looking back, I think he was like maybe wet. And he was like black and white. And he was quite like, you know, it's quite a sexy picture probably. And I remember showing it to my dad. My dad was in the garden and I was like, maybe wet, and he was like black and white, and he was quite like, you know, it's quite a sexy picture probably. And I remember showing it to my dad, my dad was in the garden and I was like, can I put

that on my wall? And my dad was like, you can, but don't use blue tack. So his main issue was blue tack. He wasn't like, why do you want to put a semi-naked David Beckham on the wall? He's like, you can adorn it, but watch the wallpaper. Wait, so I don't want to, let's just fixate on the wrong detail here but what did you use to fix the poster? Well that's why we're here. I mean I don't know. Or maybe I would have said no sellotape. Oh maybe he said no sellotape. Maybe he said no sellotape.

And do use blue tack. Maybe he said no sellotape. Use blue tack. Yeah. Okay I want to talk more about your parents but let's do that as part of your first failure. Your first failure is your maths GCSE, Nick. Yes, yeah, and this has stayed with me, because when I was asked to think about my failures, I was like, right, what have I done? I had quite a lot actually, but maths GCSE was one that I think has stuck with me.

I failed it, I had to resit it, and it made me feel really stupid and really thick, and I think I still think I'm really stupid, and I think that stems from failing my maths GCSE, and it being a disaster, a disaster for everyone at school, in my family, my dad was like, I can't you've failed your maths GCSE. He was like, yeah, I know, I still can't take a phone number down fast, I think I'm numerically challenged. You've also given me four failures rather than three, which I think is quite funny in this context.

Are we going to do an extended episode? Yeah, so other than your dad saying, gosh, I can't believe it, what else made it feel desperate? What was the reaction of teachers at school? There was like a sense of disappointment and that I was a bit stupid for failing it I think, and it was like... How badly did you fail it? Yeah, I think bad, I think I like didn't get a mark maybe. I did all right in everything else, two A's, the rest B's, I did all right in everything else. Two A's, the rest B's, an F in French, U or whatever it was called in maths. So they were fine, but maths was, was, my sister was good at maths, my brother was good at maths, my dad was good at maths. So it felt like, oh, you've let down the Vorderman family.

Okay. So I, yeah, I remember, I remember my sister teaching me at the dining table and being like, why don't you just get it? Just get it. And I was like, I can't get it. She's like, why can't you get it? So it was always like, it was always expected that I should be good at it maybe. And then when I failed it, I just felt it was another thing for me that made me feel really different. Like, oh, I'm gay and thick. Yes. You know, that's what it made me feel like for me. I was like, oh, I can't even add up. I so relate in that kind of mindset where I can't get my head around an Excel spreadsheet. If someone will ask me, what's the royalty agreement on your books? I'm like, I don't know. I don't. It's so bad.

It's so bad. Like, it's so bad. And I don't mean this in a flippant way because I hate when people are flippant about not knowing things, but genuinely mortgages, anything like that. My accountant has to get like a whiteboard out, like I'm full and be like, right, here's your money. You earn it from here. I'm like, yep.

And then I'm gone. I'm like, I don't get it. And I just don't know. My brain is wired in a way. I'm like, I don't get it. And I just don't know what my brain is why it in a way I have to really concentrate. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Now, if you're an entrepreneur like me, or living the creative freelance life, then Squarespace is the all-in-one platform to help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just getting started or nurturing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy

to create a stunning website and engage with your audience. My website was designed on Squarespace, and I found it so user-friendly and easy. And trust me, I am not techy at all. Squarespace supports a design-orientated ethos, so the options are chic and there's plenty of templates to choose from. I felt totally supported as an entrepreneur, and it made it even easier for me to help nurture my community too. Other amazing features include SEO tools so your site can be found easily, help with payments, and an AI-enhanced website

builder. It helps you do you without any hassle. Head to squarespace.com forward slash failten for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code FAIL10 to save 10% off your first purchase of a website and domain. I really sympathize with salespeople. It must always feel like they're sifting through leads, endlessly hoping to find a buyer. Happily, for all those sales teams out there, LinkedIn's Sales Navigator is here to help. It's more than just a tool, it's your strategic sales partner. LinkedIn's Sales Navigator is a sales intelligence platform that helps professionals effectively

prospect and engage high-value customers, drive higher revenue, and increase sales performance. Sales Navigator helps you to target the right buyers and shows you hidden allies so you can find those buyers that are most likely to convert. LinkedIn Sales Navigator has new AI features designed to help sellers find the right people and conversations, all at scale. Sales Navigator gives you the most up-to-date, first-party data enabling you to unlock conversations with the people that matter. Are you ready to get into the right conversations?

Try LinkedIn Sales Navigator now with a 60-day free trial at LinkedIn.com slash advanced. That's LinkedIn.com forward slash advanced for a 60-day free trial at linkedin.com slash advanced. That's linkedin.com forward slash advanced for a 60-day free trial. Terms and conditions apply. Tell me a bit more about your parents and what they're like. I know you have an amazing relationship with your mom and I know your dad very sadly passed in 2016, But what was your relationship with them like around this time that we're talking about apart from the disappointment with maths? So I always had a really great relationship with them, like always and you know still do have an amazing relationship with my mom.

All we do is miss each other's phone calls. That's what we've been doing. She just called me as I came into this room. But yeah, we speak every day. I speak to like we've got a family WhatsApp group that goes off every day, and we've always been really close, and always really got on, and always like, you know, always had blazing arguments, but then get over them within three minutes, and then we're best friends again. No one in my family is remotely interested or gassed, or wants to hear about radio or who I've interviewed

at all. And when I was younger, I was like, aren't you bothered? And now I'm really happy that they're actually like, I don't really care. Like they're genuinely not bothered. So I've always had a great relationship with them. My dad was really hard working. My dad was very particular as well in that he'd have like, so he had to have all his clothes facing the same way and he'd worked really hard. He'd come from, you know, super humble working class beginnings in, he was born in the forties, 1941. It was a war baby. So he had a really hard childhood and really grafted and did really well. And then he sort of instilled that, or wanted to instill that in me, my brother and sister. It was expected that you would work your absolute hardest.

School was really important. What you looked like going to school was really important. And my mum was like this too, like you'd have to have really clean shoes, your uniform was completely ironed and perfect every single day. You would get home, you'd do your homework, you'd have to be thinking about what GCSEs are you doing, what A-levels are you doing, how you're going to do them, are you going to be a doctor, are you going to be a lawyer, are you going to run a business, like start thinking about it now. So they were very ambitious, I guess, and really hard working and that was instilled in us to want to look really good and to work

really hard because I guess that's what they they had to do, you know, they both came from really poor backgrounds so they wanted to look good and they wanted to work hard and they wanted to achieve so So that trickled down to, to us. And when I was not interested in studying hard, my dad was like, you are on another planet, like, why are you listening to music? Like, what are you on about? Like he thought that was like silly. He was like, get a proper job.

So he could not understand me loving radio. And he thought that was a distraction from achieving something good, which was for him to be, you know, a lawyer or a businessman. So he just was like, what are you on about? Did that ever change? Yeah, it did. When I started, when I moved to London, and I say all that with like, you know, he wasn't like, how dare you have a dream? But I think he was just, he'd worked hard.

He wasn't like, don't have a dream or like, don't like music. You know, he loved, he loved about five people he loved, and people that were really good. You know, he loved Bill Withers, Bob Marley, Ella Fitzgerald, Barbra Streisand, The Beatles. That was it. That's enough. So he was like, we've had by a record, he'd be like, well, you've got one. You've got loads upstairs.

Why are you getting another one? So he was like, you need five. Maybe Simon and Garfunkel as well. So he thought stuff was a distraction and not in a killjoy-y way, but I think he just wanted the best for us. So when I failed the Math GCSE, that was a disaster. But then when I failed the Math GCSE and started to say things like, I want to work in music PR. He was like,

what the fuck's music PR? My dad was like, don't work in PR. They're the first people to get fired. If a, you know, a company goes to shit, be a lawyer. You always need a lawyer or be an accountant. goes to shit. Be a lawyer. You always need a lawyer or be an accountant. So when I moved to London to want to work at MTV, he didn't know what MTV was. He didn't know what a creative industry was. He didn't, he was like, what the fuck are you talking about? What are graphics for the MTV VMAs? Like he just, he just didn't know what I was on about. So he was just, I think, concerned that I had wasted time, money, years to go and do nothing in Camden and get drunk, which is also what I did. He, when I started doing TV, and I'd started doing E4 music first, as introducing music videos, he was like, what does that mean? And he was like, you need to get into the BBC, as introducing music videos, he was like, what does that mean?

And he was like, you need to get into the BBC, get a proper job, get into the BBC. Once I started doing Sunday nights at the BBC, at Radio 1, he was like, oh, okay, now that's a real job, like I get it. I've heard of the BBC, of course. So that sort of validated me to my dad, I think. I mean, it was doing stupid things with end-ups. It wasn't the today program. And is it right that anecdote that I started off the introduction with about you going

to London age 13 and looking through those doors, looking through the windows of a real one, is it correct that your dad reminded you of that when he was dying? Yeah, it is. And it's a, it's a total true story. And I know it sounds like something in a made up film, but I came to London with my dad to go to a United Away game. And my dad had an A to Z of London. And I, on the way, got it out and found where Radio 1 was,

and was like, we've got to go to Great Portland Street, and I think my dad was like, okay, fine. So like a closed office on a Saturday. And so we went and looked at it, and I remember plotting out on the A to Z, I think they call it Manifesting Now, I was like, well, I'll live here, and then I'll walk there

and I'd probably go to this place for lunch and then I'd go and have my meeting here at this radio station. And I planned it out and marked it all on the A to Z. And I actually did do all those things, which was quite weird. And I was like, I'd probably go to like this cafe here. Thought I bet Joe Wiley goes there

and I'd like really visualize it. And I made my dad take me and I actually like forgot about it. And then, yeah, he died in 2016 and he'd had cancer for a while and it had gone away and he'd had chemo and it came back. And it got to a point where we, you know, we knew he was not going to be with us for much longer and he wanted to be at home and he wanted to be with all the family. So we were all with him when he died and I remember coming up from London to be with my dad and talking to him and he reminded me of that story and I'd forgot it. And he was like, you know, I remember you telling me that and you did that.

And I was like, wow. So he was proud of you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And you brought it up. Yeah, like the day before he died. Yeah. There's a lot.

There's a lot of it. Yeah, that was beautiful. Yeah. Going on to Seamless Link. Yes, come on. Seamless Link from death. I didn't know how to move on to that. I didn't know how to move on from that memory,

which must be so precious. Stink. Stink. Stink. Yes. Jingle. Advert. It's about your sexuality. So you mentioned being Catholic and praying that you could be straight. And I'm just wondering what that conversation was like with your parents then when you had it. How soon after the mass GCSE did it come? Or maybe it

was before? Well it was funny because I like, I remember speaking to um my sister about it and her saying like something along the lines of I just don't think that you have to like ring my mum and dad and tell them you're gay because she like, I just think I'd actually be sick if I had to ring my dad and say, hey dad just want to let you know I'm having sex with a man at school. Like, oh, like she was like, I just think it's like too weird. This is Jane again. Yeah, Jane. She was just like, do you know what I mean?

She's like, why should you have to have this like awkward conversation that I don't have to have? And I was like, oh yeah, you're right. She's like, I think just like, feel it out or something like that. I can't remember what she said, but I remember thinking like, yeah, like it doesn't have to be this like, I have some news. I want to kiss men. Because that's like mortifying as a teenager, like straight or gay. Like, I mean, maybe parents are a bit more modern now, but like it would not want to talk to your parents about sex or kissing or anything like that. So I never really had the conversation with them ever.

Like I never implicitly sat them down and was like, I have some news. I can't even remember how it just like became to be talked about, and I remember like really struggling with the concept of coming out when I was younger, and whether or not I thought it was, because like the term I struggled with, yeah, and it was like coming out, I was like, well I've not been pretending to be straight, like yes at school, but like not, not to my mom and dad, you know, so it was quite a funny, it was quite a funny conversation to have because I'm like, it's not like I was coming out at 50 and I'm like, oh, I've had a realization actually, like, I've been

in sexual relationships and I've had three kids and actually, I think I'm gay. You know, I had not had any relationship. Truly, I can't remember how it ended up being even talked about. I really can't. I remember I did an interview and I talked about fancying Frank Ocean. And I think Frank Ocean had just wrote the letter that he wrote on a blog or on Tumblr at the time, talking about, oh, the album I just released, which everyone loved, is actually about feelings I had for a man. And everyone was like, what? And I remember doing an interview with like the Times

or the Guardian or something and being like, oh my God, like I was sort of in love with him before and like in love with his music. And I'd be like crying and then I'm like, now he's gay. I'm like, he could have been singing about me or something flipping like that. And then my mom and dad were like can't believe that you've told the guardian that you're gay officially before you told us officially so they weren't annoyed about me being gay they were more like how did the guardian all the times get the scoop

above us that's so funny yeah so they weren't annoyed at all but they were like you you know we love you and we are here for you and you should feel like you could tell us you fancy Frank Ocean. Yes. Rather than the Guardian. Yeah. Sometimes it's easier to tell the Guardian. Sometimes it's easier to tell the Guardian. I think that's so well put, and I also have often felt conflicted about that phrase coming out, because it implies that you're coming out from a big dark secret. Yeah, like it's a heavy darkness. Yes. And straight people don't have to do it, so they're all of that sort of stuff. And so where are you with your Catholicism now? How do you feel about... I mean, I never have been to church unless my mum's took me as a child. But my mum still goes on

a Sunday, but my mum has, I think, gone since like 1945. Like, she's going to church on a Sunday. If she's in London... It's like your Barry's bootcamp. It's like me with Barry's. You just go. So she won't go on her holidays and she won't go if she's, you know, in London with me, but if she's at home, she'll go. And I guess it's different because it's like, I guess as well, it's a massive part of the community. You know, we're from Oldham, which is like greater Manchester. So everyone at the school knows each other because they all go to the same church. So it's more of like a community thing as well as a religious experience, I think.

Let's move on to your second failure, which is your degree. So we've moved on from the failed math GCSE to your degree, which was meant to be business and communication studies. What happened? Yeah. So my dad really wanted everyone to go to uni. My brother didn't go to uni. I never heard the end of it.

My brother is so smart, so intelligent, and knows everything about everything. My brother will know about what happened to the Romans, to how Detroit techno came about. Like, he is so good. But he was like, I don't want to go to uni. Not interested. So my dad was like, that's a waste. My sister went to uni and she got a first in, I think, business studies, maybe.

She's super bright and she went on to an amazing job in finance. So my dad was like, wow, you better follow in the footsteps of our Jane. I was like, oh, I can't even pass the math GCSE. I can't do a degree. So I wanted to do anything creative. So I wanted to go and do like media studies or marketing or something that, you know, felt I was experiencing in the world. So I wanted to go and make, do a music video degree or something that, you know, felt I was experiencing in the world.

So I wanted to go and make, do a music video degree or something. My dad was like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know, going and go and do a proper degree or like don't go at all. So I found this degree at Liverpool, University of Liverpool, which was communication and business studies. And my dad was like, you can't do like a joint honours, that's not a proper degree. And I was like, University of Liverpool is proper uni, it's half business studies, you're happy.

Communication studies was basically media studies. What was your dad's job? My dad worked in like sales. Okay. Yeah. So he'd work in sales for, and like marketing as well, I guess, in for like, Findus and Nestle. Findus.

Yeah. Yeah. Stop it. Findus Crispy Pancakes. Findus Crispy Pancakes. Did you eat a lot of those? Did you get the most of these? Yeah, that's why my brother thinks he's bald, because he ate so many at the end of the 70s. Yeah. Yeah.

We don't have any legality on that. And this Spongebob episode is sponsored by Findus. By Findus Krispy Pancakes, yes. So I got to do things like political marketing. We'd get to make, you know, we talked about the Face magazine and Sachi and Sachi and like all this stuff that I found really exciting and really interesting. So that was the deal. So I could go to uni as long as I did

the business studies half, loved the media studies side, obviously, loved all the extracurricular activities of flyering and DJing and doing student radio and loved all that, absolutely hated the business studies degree, obviously. It's harder than GCSE maths. Yeah.

I did macroeconomics. I did macroeconomics. I restart the macroeconomics module, I think five times. And they were getting worse. I was getting like 7%. You poor thing. That's making me feel sick. Macroeconomics.

I could not tell you if you had a gun to my head now what that is. I have no idea. And did it. And you know why I did it? Why I picked that a gun to my head now what that is. I have no idea. And did it? And you know why I did it? How? Why I picked that module? Because my friend Granya did it. Okay.

And I was like, oh, that's fun. Granya will be in my class. And that's why I did it. Granya is our chief of the IMS. Yeah, no, yeah. She is. Yeah. She works for the Bank of New York. Does she actually? She does. Yeah. She's got a good job. Did that feel again similar to the mass GCSE failure where you were internalizing it and thinking that you weren't good enough? No, I think I'd grown by then.

I think I was like, this is not for me, and that's all right. And I think I'd got really into student radio. I was totally obsessed with music and listening to music and DJing and going out and clubbing. And I had the great advice from my older brother and older sister of like, they were like, don't get a real job. Don't do it. Don't listen to what dad says. We love him. But like, don't do it. My sister was like, don't be an accountant. Just go and do what you want to do. So I was like, you're right.

So she was getting me like psyched up to not go and do the business finance route. And I'd started doing work experience at radio stations and a plugging company in Manchester. And they basically would service music from record labels to radio. So they were a regional radio company. And I'd work there and I'd assist there in like stickering CDs or writing the blurb for the back of the record and they looked after like so many interesting exciting people like they did like Depeche Mode and Moby, um Goldfrap, Electric Six, Gay Bar, do you remember Gay Bar? Yeah. So it was quite like a fun time and I was working there in Christmas and Easter and summer holidays and I just loved that. And once I started working there and got a taste of going into radio stations and working with artists, I was like, I can't do

macroeconomics. So I felt it was, I was okay with failing that. It's interesting to me that out of the failures you sent me, there isn't a professional one. And I wonder if that's partly because of the enormous love you have for the form that you find yourself in, which is a beautiful thing. But there was a point when you took on the breakfast show, and I absolutely loved you on the breakfast show, and it's because you were a different kind of breakfast

show presenter. And I think part of the nation was probably not ready for that. But there was an interview that you gave after you moved on from the breakfast show, where you said that when you left, you felt like you were Great Britain's most unpopular person. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember feeling, I'd never thought about listening to figures, like I'd never thought about it. Before I did Radio on Breakfast Show, I'd never done daytime radio. So I'd gone from doing a nighttime specialist show, which was 10 till midnight,

and we would play all new music, anything you wanted. The guests would be, you know, drunk, the guests would come after the gigs, the guests would bring random people in who'd come on air, you know, it was not daytime radio one, it's like scheduled and organized and there's five people who work on your show. And so it was a real switch up and I never really thought about that. So it was a very different show. And also it was a very different reaction because at night time you could just chat nonsense, do whatever blah blah. You forgot like millions of people are listening in the morning and all the newspapers so anything that you said or messed up or if someone gave a date

wrong they were like, oh I didn't even know what day it is and it'd be like this like for raw because you'd said Wednesday instead of Tuesday or something. So it was, I'd never thought about the switch up of like the amount of eyes on the show, the amount of opinions on the show. You know, it's such a key part to people's day, breakfast radio. And I knew that from listening, but I'd never thought about,

oh shit, the pressure now is on me. You know, like when you listen to breakfast radio, you know, you're so in a routine because you're sort of because your way you're leaving your day and starting your day is by the time things happen. So routine is so key to it. So I think doing a massive switch up of, oh, we're actually gonna play loads of music.

It's gonna be new music. It's gonna be pop stars that may be a brand new. It was a massive shift in terms of tone of the show. Obviously, a different presenter. I was 28. I'd just turned 28 when I started. And I also wanted to bring some of the nighttime sensibilities. I wanted to bring loads of music. I wanted to play, you know, stuff that I loved on the show.

Yeah, it was a massive change. And I remember when the Raja figures would come in, I'd I loved on the show. Yeah, it was a massive change. And I remember when the Ray Jar figures would come in, I'd never had to think about them before because you're on at nighttime. And it was like, they've gone down by this amount and you were like, oh my God. I was like, I've let down all those people

that are relying on Radio One like I always did. Like that I'm letting down, like the people like me who loved Radio One and listened to it for the routine. And I was like, oh, I'd be so embarrassed in the office. Because about all these people will be like, here we is, ruining the station. So I did feel like that actually. Yeah, that must have been horrible for you. It really was, because you were like, oh, it's a real sucker punch.

But also what I didn't realize in hindsight, you know, when Chris Myles, who was on before me, when he started YouTube didn't exist. So radio was so much more powerful and so much more essential as well. So stuff just changed so much, which, you know, at the time, I don't think we took into account, you know, now YouTube on radio one, I don't know the stats now because I don't work there, into account, you know, now YouTube on Radio 1, I don't know the stats now because I don't work there, but they were like, they're fucking huge. It's like so huge. And it was sort of shifting as a beast of what radio was. It was no longer just going to be audio. And I remember when my bosses were saying that to me, I was like, oh, they're like just full of it.

Like no one's going to watch the radio on their phones, what are you on about? And of course now that's how you consume everything probably on the radio, is like YouTube or Instagram or TikTok. So I think it was a transitional stage. I don't know, I guess looking back, it was an exciting time to be on, because it was changing so much. I don't know, it did feel like bad. It felt bad that you were like, oh my god, it's in the newspaper that no one's listening to it, and you think it's because of you. Yeah. And maybe some of it was because of me. Maybe people are like, don't like you, and that's fine I think, because you know, not everyone can like you.

Well I don't know anyone who doesn't like you. But my dad used to say you can't please all the people all the time. No, and if you are, which is also impossible, then you're mediocre because you're just like the common denominator. It's so interesting to me that for a lot of your career, you have been seen as the kind of voice of youth. Yeah. And actually- And now I'm 40. Well, this is the thing, you still look so incredibly young.

That is true. And you still do convey that. It is true. But also you had older parents and older siblings. So actually, my impression of you is that you're quite an old soul, if you delve beneath the youthful surface. I think I've always felt young because of that. Like I was literally the youngest one in my family. And then yeah, everything that I did for a while was really youth focused. So when I started Radio 1, it was me and Annie Mack on a Sunday night. And that was the youth strand of Radio 1, which now is such a mad concept that they'd have a youth strand of Radio

1, because that's the entire brand. And then like E4, I guess, and T4 was like the sort of young version of Channel 4. and one of the things, the big things that happened when I started doing Breakfast, which I think people really didn't like, and I don't think I like in hindsight, was the whole messaging was, oh, it's for young people now, so if you're 30, you can't listen. Yeah. And it felt like if you'd been listening to Radio 1 for years and you were 30, you'd be like, fuck off, who's this guy telling me I can't listen? Do you know what I mean? So it was like a shift, and it was a conscious shift, and it wasn't on a whim. I think Radio 1 were like, told to do that by the BBC, like it has to be specifically, it has to get younger.

That was their decision, and I think, I think people thought that was me being like, see you later 35 year old people, which it wasn't at all. So yeah, that was, that was very focused on getting younger and being younger. And that's what they wanted me and the team to be, you know, and that's why that would happen on air that we'd go to these parties. We were so excited to go to parties because we were like 28, 27. We were so excited to go to, I don't know, a Brit Awards after show party and then bring the pop stars onto the show the next day. So it felt timely, like that's what actually what we were doing and that's what we were excited about and that's hopefully what the listeners also were excited about.

Is it a relief not to have to be youth orientated anymore? Well, I never felt like it was a pressure to do it because I felt that I was excited in that thing. Yeah. And I think when I got into, when I got into like 33, 34, I was just slowly realizing that, oh, I don't really care that much. I care in like I'm interested in pop culture way, but I wasn't like, you know, you stop getting FOMO.

Like you start like, oh, please don't invite me out. Yeah. And like in the natural way you do when you grow older. So I started being less interested in being at everything or being involved in everything because, you know, you're just growing up. And I remember thinking like, oh, I really don't want to be at Radio 1 when I'm 40, because I didn't want it to look like, oh, I'm leaving, like you've been sacked basically, because you're 40. So I remember thinking then like,

oh, I need to think of like an exit strategy. And then when I left, I just felt really content that I was leaving and really happy that I'd done everything that I needed to do there and that it was a youth station and I was 37. So I was like, yeah, this station and I was 37. So I was like, yeah, this is when I should leave. And I remember thinking like, what will I do now?

And not really knowing and actively wanting to have a break because I thought, wait, do I even like radio? I've just done this every single day for 14 years. Do I actually like it? And then I had a break and then I was like, what am I doing now? Like, what do I, so like when I was 23 and 24, when I was starting at Radio 1, I was going to gigs every single night and going clubbing and DJing. So like, what am I doing now? And I was like, well, now I just want to like talk about like armchairs and recipes, which is how Dish

came about. Because it just felt like that's the equivalent of where I was at, you know. Who was the most difficult interviewee from your Radio One days? I cringe at some of them because if it was someone like our age, I'd be unprepared and it'd be like they'd expect it. So if you were interviewing like, I don't know, a member of One Direction or like a Katy Perry or Adele or someone, they're like your friends, you'd be like, what have you been up to? And then they'd be like, not much, what have you been up to? And you'd be like, well, don't you got a song out? And they'd be like, yeah. And then that was it. I'm cringe that that would be the interview that I'd be doing with people who were like, I interviewed

like Denzel Washington like that. Or I'd go and interview like, you know, actual movie stars with that level of prep, like not watch the film, but it was, you know, off the time. But who was difficult? No one was particularly difficult. No one was difficult, I don't think, because they knew it was like live on the radio. I think people were sometimes difficult with my producer Fifi, and Fifi had to go and like talk to them and they'd be a bit, you know, short. But Fifi was always quite forgiving because it'd be like, you know, seven o'clock in the morning. But no one was like an asshole or anything. Well, I also think sometimes not being prepared can be really disarming in a good way.

Because they haven't been asked those questions. I remember interviewing Leonardo DiCaprio and I can't remember why we did this, but there was some question where it was like, what would you do if you could have one wish? I guess it was in a film about wishes or something. And he was like, oh to save all the whales or something. And I was like hysterically laughing. And he was like, and I said no, what would you do? And he was like, well yeah, do that and save the rainforest. And I was like, lol what would you do though? I didn't know he was like a massive environmentalist. Yes. So that was So that was pretty bad.

So there was things like that where I was like, they're definitely not coming back. Hi, this is Jesse, host of podcast Dinners on Me. The holidays are always hectic and by the time January rolls around, I am craving simple, healthy meals that don't take hours to prepare. That's where Whole Foods Market's meal hacks come in. Last week after a long day at work, I grabbed one of their salad kits, I paired it with one of their famous rotisserie chickens,

and dinner was done in under 10 minutes. No stress, no mess, just good food made easy. And the best part, it's all high quality. No questionable ingredients, just fresh, wholesome options that I can feel great about eating. They're ready to cook veggies and heat and serve soups are lifesavers as well. Whether I'm in a rush to hit the gym or I just want some extra time to play with my kids, Whole Foods helps me spend less time in the kitchen

and more time doing what I love. Whole Foods makes it easy to stick to my wellness goals without sacrificing flavor or time. Terms apply to all sales, pickup and delivery. Make Whole Foods Market the home in your wellness routine. Oh, hello strangers. I'm Alice Fraser, your guide to the galaxies, goblins, dungeons and dystopias.

We'll be hurling ourselves into a weekly hero's journey through realmsms Unknown into the dark but sensual heart of all our favourite speculative fictions. We'll navigate the wild realms created by brilliant authors, filmmakers, game designers and more. New episodes drop every week on your podcast app or on YouTube. Do not resist the call to adventure, Chosen One. Join me for realms unknown.

Let's get on to your, well, it's not your final failure because as previously stated, you've given me four. There's 14, get comfy everyone. Okay, let's go to your failure to be present. I'm terrible at this. But you- Because people are obsessed with talking about being present, aren't they? I know, but I actually like existing in the past.

Do you? We like the 80s. No, but talk to me about your failure to be present because you also meditate a lot. Well, no, I try. I do try. I think I tell people I do, but I go- You get visions, I've read. I did have visions. Yeah, did have.

What kind of visions? Well, it was in lockdown. I always want to start a hobby. I always think I should be doing more things, But then it gets to like Wednesday and I'm like, I'm so tired. I can't do any more things. So I always want to do these things. I'm always saying to Mish like, we should go and see. Mish is your fiance. Yeah, he's my fiance. And I was like, we should go and see an exhibition every day. He's like, every day. Like, I'm like, all right, every week. Like, we should learn French. We should do a similitude course, you know what we should do, we should go and trek in this Italian mountain range.

He's like, shut up. So I always have these things that I want to do and one of those things was meditating, because people always talk about being present, and I'm a worrier and a bit of a stress head, and I always am thinking about the worst case scenario from the past and the future, exhausting. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I'll learn to meditate. And so I did a course in lockdown with Rob De Bank, he was a DJ who used to work at Radio One. And I'd see him at night times and he runs Festival.

That was his festival. And he's also known meditation teacher. I didn't know that. Yeah. So I was like, oh my God, I'll do a course with him. So I did a course of meditation with him and I'd get on a group Zoom because lockdown and I'd go into my room and put a blanket on and just sit, wait for him to come on and then we did this Zoom with all these people and I had like full, yeah, trip the first time I did it. So it was like full, you know, like what you think that taking acid would be like in the 60s.

What did you see? Can you remember it? Like all strong blobby colors, purples, blues. Yeah, quite nice. Vivid. And I did it then, and then I did it for about the next three days, and then I didn't really do it again. I'm terrible if I, if I do something and I feel really good at it. I'm like, well that was that. Yeah. You know you have to, it's a practice. You know, like go to yoga like three times and I'm like, I'm a yogi. Nailed it. Nailed it.

But I think meditation is so difficult and I'm very, I relate to everything you say. I've just started trying to do it every day for 10 minutes. Like that's it. But that's enough. Well, so Danny Dyer came on this podcast and said that that's the amount that he did, and he was very convincing about it. And how does Danny Dyer do it every day? Yes. He says it's really helped him. Yeah. Well, no one's done it and been like, God, my life's so much worse. No. That was a waste of a minute. I remember trying to learn it from when I lived in North London, I, on my street, was a lady called Yoga Nadia.

Nadia, yoga teacher. And Yoga Nadia was like, you don't breathe. You don't breathe. Please breathe. And I'd be like, what? She's like, never breathe out. She said, do you ever just sit and be quiet? I said, no.

And then as I've got older, I love it now. I always used to have to have the telly on, the radio on, I hated being on my own. And now I love it. I love getting up in the morning early. Sometimes I wish the drugs weren't even there. Like I love it being on my own. So I sort of see that as meditation.

It is, yes. Like that's just sitting and just like chilling. And she taught me to do it and was like, just try and do it every day. And I got an app and I do it. And I kind of got into it again for like a second win of really trying to do it. But then, do you remember when Dua Lipa brought out Levitating? Yes.

You get that stuck in your head. Now I get that stuck in my head because all I think is I'm meditating and it ruins it. That really would ruin it. And now every time I close my eyes, I think of Dua Lipa, like, if you want to go and I'm like, oh, I can't ruins it. That really would ruin it. And now every time I close my eyes I think of Dua Lipa like, if you wanna go... and I'm like, oh, I can't do it. What if you listened to meditation music? Would that help?

Yes, I listened to a guided one. Okay. Yeah. But I don't like it when it's too... I need a normal person to do it. I hate when it's like, relax. I'm like, don't talk like that. Just normal voice please. I found on Spotify just 10 minute meditation music, like chakra balls and

stuff. Oh yeah, oh yeah, I went for a sound bath. Oh I love a sound bath. Did you like it? Well I went for one and loved it, and then I went the other week, and I fell asleep in it. That's good. And then, yeah, but then you know, you wake up, you know, and then I shout myself, no, but you know when you wake up from a nap and you're like, where am I? I had that in the thing, and I like, I came to you and I was like, I had to like lie back down, and then I was like, wait, what am I doing? So that's put me out, but I will go again. JLM. Your final failure is New Year's Resolutions.

JLM. And I wonder if there's one New Year's Resolution that continually comes back to haunt you because of your failure to keep it. Is it failing to stay present? Staying present, I try journaling. Oh my gosh, don't bother. Well, sometimes it stresses me out more than... 100%. Also, because I do write a lot for a living, that's also not what I want to do when I switch off from work. Right, so yeah. So everyone says, here's your journal and like write down, you know, what you achieved that day and what you wanna achieve tomorrow.

That gets my brain going like crazy. So I used to write a mantra and I started it 2022 and I sort of did it for like four months. Sorry, we're so similar. I did exactly the same thing at the beginning of this year. And then I did it again this year and then I forget about it.

Yeah. Are you doing the whole Tesla thing where you have to write it three times, six times and nine times? Oh, I did it again this year and then I forget about it. Yeah. Are you doing the whole Tesla thing where you have to write it three times, six times and nine times? Oh, I do it five times, just five. Okay. Yeah. So I'd write it and then sometimes I'd be like, for fuck's sake, I'm not writing my fucking mantra.

And I'd have to write it like that and slam it shut and go to sleep. So I was like, I don't know if it feels like that spiritual. But yeah, every year I always feel like I need to make some like drastic change, like I'm not gonna drink. So I will not drink for like, you know, four months, five months. But I'm quite, I think that is probably quite good to do anyway. So I don't mind not drinking for a few months. So I do like not drinking, gonna learn Spanish, I'm gonna do an art history course, a stage set design course. I should do a wine course, I should learn Spanish, yoga and also, you know, start doing my mantras. So I start January like too extreme. Yes.

Always. Always. Like I did on January this year, 10k run, no training. Okay. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And you've fallen into the New Year's resolution traps, which it's a metric designed to make you feel like a failure according to your own goals. Because everyone wants to be the extreme best version of themselves. But ultimately, you can't just start at that high level. I think it's going to like, you know, strike midnight. And I'm going to turn into like, I don't know, Paula Radcliffe for January, like, God, I'm such an athlete. Before we close this lovely, lovely chat, you were talking about how you used to be fearful of loneliness and how you don't have that anymore. Is that because of Mish, your fiance?

Maybe. Do you think? Maybe. I think that might be part of it. It sounds like he- Maybe, yeah, I feel like it's too cute. Honestly, can a 100% be myself with Mish, like all the time, like I, like we have our own, I know it's annoying to say, I'm not like,

we have our own language, but I think there's something quite free in being able to be like really, and really basic and stupid with each other, so I think that's probably quite, really basic and stupid with each other. So I think that's probably quite, makes me feel quite secure. I can be a hundred percent myself with him. And even when he's not there, you know, he, I feel, I've always felt scared in the house, always since I was a kid. And I've not had that since I've gone out with me, I don't think. Oh, that's so lovely. Even when he's not there, you. You know, I feel like quite safe and secure. That's beautiful. I mean, we started off talking about accepting yourself

and we've ended with you feeling accepted by the person you love most in the world. Thank you so much. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you, Nick Grimshaw for coming out of fame. That was really great. That was that free therapy. It's free, right? Yeah. Well, the only thing that I'm asking you to do now is to stay and answer listener questions. Okay. Other than that, it's totally free. That was the biggest compliment you could pay me, honestly. It really was. Thank you. Thank you. Feel good.

We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please do tell all of your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I tried the Y for free and I never looked back. The instructors empowered me. One more, you got this. The gym strengthened me. The pool soothed me.

And the pick-up games energized me. Great game. The Y is everything I needed it to be because the Y is so much more than my gym. Try the Y free for seven days at TryTheY.ca