How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - ON BABY LOSS… With Sara Pascoe and Trinny Woodall

Episode Date: October 12, 2025

Welcome back to this How to Fail special, where we revisit powerful moments from the archive that offer insight, perspective and - hopefully - a sense of comfort during life’s more difficult chapters. This week, to mark Baby Loss Awareness Week (9th to 15th October) and Elizabeth’s new role as ambassador for The Miscarriage Association, we're reflecting on two deeply moving conversations that explore miscarriage, fertility struggles and the resilience required to endure them. First, you'll hear from Sara Pascoe, who speaks openly about the heartbreak of miscarriage and the anxiety that followed during her IVF journey and eventual pregnancies. Then we turn to Trinny Woodall, who shares her experience of multiple miscarriages and nine rounds of IVF before the birth of her daughter. Trinny’s story is one of extraordinary strength, persistence and hope. Whether you're personally affected or simply listening with empathy, I hope these stories bring you comfort, connection or a new perspective. Listen to Sara Pascoe’s full episode of How to Fail here: Listen to Trinny Woodall’s full episode of How to Fail here: 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: The Miscarriage Association: www.miscarriageassociation.org.uk Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @howtofailpod @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod @elizabday Website: www.elizabethday.org Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to How to Fail with me, Elizabeth Day. Today I'm diving back into the archive to bring you a curated selection of some of my favorite conversations, moments that are honest and deeply human and sometimes even funny. often with the idea that they make you feel less alone. Now, the nights of the 15th of October is Baby Loss Awareness Week, so it felt only right to reflect on two episodes which cover this topic sensitively,

sharing personal experiences and how those individuals coped. It's a particularly important topic for me because of my own personal experiences and also because I'm so honoured to be an ambassador for the Miscarriage Association. Firstly, you're going to hear from Sarah Pasco, who talks emotionally about her miscarriage and then the anxiety she experienced when she successfully had two children. Then we hear from Trinny Woodall, who talks about her multiple pregnancy losses

and her nine rounds of IVF before she had her daughter, Lila. It's a story of extreme resilience, amazing strength, and it is totally inspiring. I hope that if you relate to any of this or if you're going through something right now that these stories bring you either a little comfort or reassurance. Let's get into it. First up, here's Sarah Pasco. Okay, so third failure, which is pregnancy.

And it's a, in terms of, again, the cross-section with success, the days that you get your period when you really thought it was, you were pregnant and that kind of thing. And when it happens at work, and sometimes with comedy, you can have really fun jobs or really big jobs, and your personal life cannot come into it. So I did have circumstances where things were going well at career, but was very undermined by my repeated failure to get pregnant. So three relationships. I started trying with a boyfriend when I was probably just starting stand up for about 27, 28. and I'm really glad now looking back that I didn't have children with him

or with my next long-term relationship but at the time that wasn't what it felt like and also it felt like it was a big part of those relationships fizzling out or, you know, becoming a lot less fun. I hear you. I'm not having future, those kind of things. But the thing that I did which I, again, I don't know if this is a regret, I just didn't go for investigations,

I didn't try and find out why I wasn't getting pregnant I thought if it was meant to happen, it would happen, which actually means I gave all of the power to something else, which meant it then became very intertwined with worth. Am I good enough to be a parent, or is the universe saving me from being a parent or saving these possible children from a bad parent? So I kept reinforcing it wasn't supposed to happen.

And also, I thought things like a trade-off. I thought, well, the universe has given you all of this with your work. How dare you say, I want something. something else as well. I really did think it was a trade-off. And every month, I always got my hope stuff, especially with Steen. Steen, when, before we even kissed, told me he wanted a family. And I, knowing what I've been through, said, you know, you're open to adoption. He's like, I really want to have biological children. He's Australian Greek. I think he's been asked since he was 18, where's the baby. It was really massive for him. So right at the beginning of our

relationship was this. And especially because of my age, where I must have met him in my late 30s. it wasn't like we've got five years to go travel, have fun together it was, you know, we're going to try really soon, if not immediately. Halfway through every month, I always bang on, just like, it's now, I can feel it. And I would look in my diary to look at the stuff that would be impossible because I'd be having this baby, that's not going to work. And then when I wasn't pregnant, I would look again at the same job, like, well, at least I can do that now.

Like at least, oh, I will be doing that. And I always sorts of trade-off and worse. And then because of COVID, like lots of people, I had, my work cancelled in two phone calls, a year worth of work, basically. We were in Finland doing a documentary. I got a phone call for my agent, which was about, you know, the first stuff being pulled. And then by the time we landed, it was the rest. So the really good thing was that I'd always had 40 as my cutoff point.

Like Sheila Hetty in her book, I loved 40 being the line because I needed a point where I just recovered and went, okay, didn't have children. And also, the other reason I think of it as a failure is, what is so shit? when you're going through it is not having a definite answer that you can just react to and just go, I can cope with definiteness, or I can't cope with is not knowing, I can't cope with maybe or unexplained, miracle, accidental. And then again, the narrative, getting to say to this like prospective child, guess what, I'd given up, I was 141.

And you get told so many things like, relax, get drunk, go on holiday, stop trying so much. And it's so much space in your brain, so much space in there constantly, where you are, what could be happening. Should I have a glass of wine? Should I have a cheeky cigarette? Because, you know, a second half of the cycle. And then I'd think things like, no, no, because if you don't have a cigarette, I love a drunk cigarette. If I don't have a cigarette, then I definitely won't be pregnant. But if I do have it, then I will. And then I'll be furious with myself. And I, these trade-offs constantly. It's like a form of magical thinking. It is magical thinking. You, because there is a lack of explanation, and similarly to you, I had

unexplained fertility and no reason for it and nothing definitely. And it's very difficult then not to fill that, especially if you are a storyteller, which you are, with your own stories. And if you are a woman, then generally those stories are going to be extremely self-critical. And then on top of that, if you're a woman who's been socially conditioned to believe that it's a biological imperative to have children and that people fall off a log and get pregnant, there's all of that. I got so obsessed with, they've got a special name, but people who didn't know they were pregnant so they gave birth. I'm still obsessed with them. Yeah. And then you start thinking, should I fall off logs more? Yes. Let me Google falling off a log and whether that's spiritually aligned with getting pregnant.

Yeah. Google is not your friends. Well, it's not. It's really not. It's a really sad place. It's a really sad place. And then, and again, a little bit like the bad reviews, you can't unlearn those things. Never. Other people's sadnesses, other people's traumas, other people's emotional attachments to things or theories on things. There's part of it that's great that it's a collective. They're so common, which is what I talk about in my show. my second half is about having my son and I want to say it, I'm always so aware of like there will be people in my audience that's why I don't talk about my miscarriage actually

is because I kept thinking there'll be someone who's having one the son who's having one who's coming out to cheer up and it just made me think I'm just not going to do it I'm so sorry that's okay I'm so sorry I've done not to get to this point without rolling up you have I know you're pain yeah and the COVID time so what was good was were you doing IVF sorry that's when you started IVF

and that's when you started okay and my husband and I had to say I'm grateful to him because I told him I can't do anymore and he he said please he said can we give two more years and do this properly with doctors really try and two more years are at 40 to 42 sorry to interrupt so your miscarriage predates the IVF my miscarriage was why we're all waiting to start IVF okay and so you know you have that thing where ring us as soon as you get your period do la da da this is the cruelty of it in terms of the story because it was a really early miscarriage and I'm not diminishing what I went through but After such a long time, never getting pregnant.

Oh my mother, I'm so sorry. Please don't be sorry. But also I wanted to say that just because you then have a child, it doesn't go away. I know. I think people, I think like lots of people have miscarriages, you just stop talking about it. People stop asking you after two months. Our IVF was put off. It was so shit because I was 38 when we started, which in where I live,

I'm on the border of Haringay and Islington. You're going to have IVF. We could get one round of the NHS. And then, because it was smoothed because of COVID, I was then too old. But Islington, they layered to have to 40, which again is a very unfair thing because it's just a richer thing. So we had to move doctors because it was the way you live. It's where your doctor is. So we moved doctors from there to there, you know, 100 metres.

Now we could have an IVF on the NHS, but then it got cancelled because of COVID. So we went private and, again, unfortunate. So we get in the phone calls. Yeah. Ring us when you've got your period. And I've had late periods very cruelly, you know, up to sort of 35, 37 days, that horrible, horrible week. So 32 days, still don't have my period. They said, you've been done a pregnancy test.

And I said, oh, my period's always late. I don't do a pregnancy test. But 35 days I did a pregnancy test. And it was pregnant. And that's the only time. That is the only time we ever celebrated. I know. Yeah.

Because after that, it's never ever a celebration ever again. It is such a thief of joy. And then the stupid thing, the reason it feels like a third. failure, because then I had a pregnancy, again, that word successful. And I'm really lucky that I didn't have huge health complications with him. He was massive. There wasn't worries my pregnancy, but it was horror because I kept thinking he was going to die. I did hundreds of pregnancy tests, and I haven't been able to throw a single one away.

And I was thinking yesterday, when there is eventually a climate catastrophe and we're all underwater. I'd be able to make a little raft for my children out of all of the thousands of pregnancy tests I did. I was doing several a day. It was the only way I could reassure myself I was pregnant. Because the progesterone makes you feel pregnant. Yeah. But I'd had that before. Yeah.

And then the symptoms had gone and then I'd started bleeding. So the progesterone, you can't trust it. It's a horrible thing about IVF. You feel pregnant as soon as you start doing those bloody pesceries. Hundreds of pregnancy tests. And then I got obsessed with the ones, which can tell you like plus three weeks or how much you are. But then you sort of age out of that. I went for scans all the time, private scans.

And as I walked from the room, I would think, well, what if he's died now? Yeah. You poor thing. I think it's so common. I think it's so common. I totally thank you so much talking about it because you've articulated things that I have felt in such a brilliant way

and I've never heard anyone else do it. And part of the reason that I have given up my, not given up, but let my fight for a child go is because I can't. bear the thought of another miscarriage. I've had three. And I also, I'm too scared to get pregnant because I know I, like you, I would feel terrified every single moment. And like you, I have a draw full of pregnancy tests from those. And they fade over time. Which is actually a sadness. It's like, oh, it's sort of the final fading of something that did exist. But to all intents and purposes, the world doesn't think it does. And how is your pregnancy now with your second baby?

So number one, I thought it would be easier. I actually felt more neglectful because I've not been able to focus as much anxiety on him. And whenever I do, I feel anxious. I mean, it is anxiety. How do you cope with the anxiety? Like, how do you get through it? Because nine months is just a fuck of a long time. The first thing I do in the morning, you know, like, people check their phones.

I literally just check the fertility app. And I see it plus one day and you're just plus oneing towards sort of viability, even though, you know, that's no guarantee of anything. Yeah. And then you're just plusing it. And the app tells you, oh, this. They can do this. And eventually at some points it says their lungs are ready to breathe oxygen.

I don't think anything helps you do with the anxiety. And I know that this is common for women who are infertile. Like it doesn't. I really hope there are women listening who are like, no, it didn't happen for me. I loved it. I got so jealous of people who thought a line on a pregnancy test was a baby. Imagine having that much uncomplicated faith in the world.

There's a horrible documentary on Netflix about a woman who is murdered by husband. And it's horrible because she's been murdered by husband. And she's got three children. and she's pregnant with her fourth and she's doing a video for her Facebook and she says on the way to the first scan, so excited because at this point you're always thinking, is it one?

Is it twins? And I was like, is it fuck? What? There's some people thinking, is it twins? Not is its heart actually beating? Is it growing? Poor woman, poor woman. But there are some people who literally go,

oh shit, I'm having a kid. I totally hear you. It forever changes the way you view the world. And even that thing of baby announcements on Instagram, sharing the scan, having baby showers. These are things that I would never, had I ever got a lasting pregnancy, I would never have done.

Well, I still don't like them. And I've had a child. People show their bumps in ways that I consider, I get a really odd reaction to it. And for years and years when I just couldn't get pregnant, I had blinkers on that show. I just didn't see stuff. I was really spiky.

I was especially spiky on stage. I didn't want people to feel sorry for me. I thought all my audiences were coming to my shows going, but yeah, why is you not having kids? I was so projected out. But now I find there's this, gratuitousness about bumps and with the primary for the book sometimes people want to take full old photos of me it's like I do I will never stand there with my hand on my I will not do that

pose I don't identify as that person that's not how I feel about this there's something I wanted to say to you based on an article that you wrote when your friendship book was coming out because it was about people because I've got a leg in both camps right I'm cuspium I'm an infertile woman who then had a child and I still don't identify as I couldn't even do nCT classes I couldn't be around people who were just pregnant, who thought it was this wonderful, beautiful thing. People say things like our body's doing these amazing things. And to me, it just feels like terror. It feels like an accidental terror that I'm not in control of.

It was about someone saying about the love, right, to you. It's not true. You've never known love. Yeah, it's not true. There's two things I have, my problem with it. Number one, I think it's how parents feel when their kids aren't there. Because when the kids are there, you don't feel that way. It's when you're feeling a glass of wine at a wedding and a night off.

and you all think, no, I do like them. I think partly it's that. And it happened to me at a wedding. That's what I was imagining. I've only been out once since I had my son, which was Emma Forrest's book launch, and it was lovely. I still wouldn't have said that to anyone, and it isn't how I feel about him, actually.

I think you have an emotional spectrum, and I had used up all my emotions before. I was 40 when I had to him. I had had all the emotions. But I also think it's people trying to convince themselves because it's so fucking horrible. Yes. It's drudgery.

And I think they say it aloud, and they say it aloud to other parents. And it's like, you need to add that on to the end of every sentence? My son put like sweet potato that I just steamed him into my hair and then they'll say oh but it's amazing isn't it it's like no we can just say the shit thing he did a it's a horrible boy you can say that I think they're trying to convince themselves when they say that out loud I think the language is too simplified it's too complex no sentence covers it love is not the word oh I don't know it's not all of it so I thought

Why would you sit there with a never-known love like it? You're telling yourself that. You're telling yourself you made the right life decision or it's okay or you can cope and you can go back. It's drudgery. I love you. Love is the appropriate word. Yes, okay, yes.

For how I feel about you. I am so grateful for your existence in this world. Thank you. I feel the same about you. Oh, but Sarah. I cannot thank you enough. I just can't thank you enough. Thank you for.

I really I'm denied about whether to put it on because I obviously from your work and I'm aware what you've been through as well and I just thought maybe for people who come to you because you talk about it because of what they're also going through with my first son put up a post on Instagram to say that I felt really odd.

You know, I get sent pictures of myself when I'm clearly pregnant. I wasn't saying even I was pregnant on stage. I felt so conflicted about it and I felt so conflicted about sharing it with others and I got contacted by women who had had pregnancy but had remained in the place before. That it doesn't go away, it doesn't wipe the way,

and that there are resources and the people run podcasts that are just about parenting after loss or parenting after trying for years to conceive. Well, trying for years, I think, is the phrase that they use. There's a whole other side of infertility, which is it doesn't go away. What you've been through for all those years doesn't go away. And then you feel like a failure that you haven't gone,

now I'm an earth, mummy. Now I can sit at weddings and go. go, I never know love like it. Well, no one will ever know love like the love I've experienced for Sarah Pascoe. During this last hour and a bit of chat, I'm in awe of you. Thank you so, so much for coming on her to fail.

Thank you. And I wonder if I can ask you something else, which is more for the people going through fertility issues right now. and a lot of them I know listen to this podcast, partly because I've spoken about my own. And I know that you went through nine rounds of IVF before Lila and another seven afterwards. And I just, again, want to pay tribute to the courage that takes,

the titanic level of courage. But for any of us who need little hope, is it worth it, Trinney? Like when you look at Lila now, all of the pain and all of the courage that that took, do you think, oh my goodness, thank goodness, I kept going? The time in which you decide you want to be a mother and what makes you think you want to be a mother

and that's a profound thing to think about it because I didn't think in my 20s, I didn't have a burning desire to be a mother. In my early 30s, I didn't have a burning desire to be a mother. Susanna was being a mother and I found it a inconvenience to the growth of our business. But did you find it pay? as well. It must have been quite, no. I found it irritating. Okay. I was really candid. I found

him irritated. And then I sort of woke up one day, whether we call it biological clock or whatever, age sort of 35. And I thought, I really want to be a mother. Maybe it was when I sort of let go and got over all my mother issues, whatever it was, but I just had this, I want to be a mother now. And I had had armed protect sex for like 10 years. Okay, I'd never got pregnant. So I sort of knew I couldn't get pregnant actually for years, but I had never thought how much do I want to be a mother. So when I made that decision, I went literally that day to IVF because I knew there was a problem. And I didn't know what the problem was, but Johnny and I had never conceived. So we went and, you know, we had really like one day Johnny's sperm would just look like

they were dead the next day. They were swimming the fucking time, you know, the channel. So it was like, okay, I think he's fine, but it would be a very different one rating for the next. And this also like 2003, so fertility has come a long, long way, but they said you have unexplained infertility. Such a great catch-all, isn't it? And so I just started doing it straight away, and at the time, I was earning quite a lot of money. So I'd do it, it failed, I'd do it again. I mean, I did like five in a year. Oh my God. And it's like, you know, the gonol F was like in my time. And I was like the professional. I mean, I remember when I very first did it, it was like, Johnny got the surgical gloves on.

We did the injection. And, you know, by the time I was doing it, this time, I was like, oh, you know, whatever. So it became mechanical. And I remember when I once did an interview then when Johnny was still alive and they said, did it affect you hormony? And I was like, a bit. And Johnny was like, so fucking much. It was probably, I turned into a really hormonal cow. And I think I was very difficult to be around.

And each time it didn't work. So the first time it didn't work, the second time I got pregnant, then. that one I just lost, lost. And then I waited like a month and then I did another one and then it didn't take and then I did another one and then I did another one. So within 18 months, that was probably. And then I got pregnant again. And I then had to give birth because it was, you know, I don't know why I had to give birth.

I had to give birth. Sorry, was that a mistake? Because there was some problem but he just said, I can't do a DNC, you have to give birth. I can't remember why, but I just remember this kind of, I have to say I have blanked a bit of this out of Lisbon, because I just think, you're just kind of then like, you're just like on this roller coaster. And then I did three more, full IVF, and then I had frozen some of Johnny's sperm. We're getting really detailed here, but if everyone listens to this for an element of agility, I'm sorry to the boys who are like, whoa, but this is like a girl's chat.

And type of boys chat, because they have to go through it the other side if you're in a relationship with a man. So Johnny was away. Johnny was away at a rehab. You know, that's where our marriage was at. Okay. And I remember Dr. Ren called me up and she said, Trinney, I've got some of Johnny's stuff. Do you want me to throw it away or not? And I was like, I don't know what's going to happen in life. I said, I'll come in, just shove it in. You know? So I remember went in, put my legs in the stirrups, shoved it in. And I left. And I literally left and stopped thinking about it. I was like, And then, you know, a month later, I bled. I thought, there we go again, you know, kind of like that.

I was just like, because things weren't great on lots of levels, I was like, and then I remember I get to the next month, and I think, oh, I didn't get my period. And Mari Wren called me up. She said, Trini, why haven't you coming? Because usually I was like, day 11, I was like, can I come to stay? Because I come to stay. She went, no, you've got to wait until day 13. You know, it was like, oh.

And she called me up. She said, Trini, it's day, day 120. I don't know. It was really later. What the fuck's going on? And I was like, I've lost it. She said, well, just come in. And I was pregnant. And I was like, oh, my God. And she said, okay. And then she sent me to this man in Wimbledon because she said, you have to go and do all this anti-miscarriage thing. So I had to take these horrible steroid injections every day. I hate it taking. And they stung me. And I was like, off. I really thought, I don't know if I'm going to be able to keep it. But I then went to America and I did the Yoskos with Susano. We're both pregnant. And I immediately call my obstetrician. And I said, I said, I'm bleeding, and I really thought I'd lost Lina. And I remember I came back from America, and I went straight to St. Mary's Paddington, and he had one of those mobile ultrasounds. I think I had that inevitable feeling I've lost the baby, just like this sort of flat feeling. And then I heard her heartbeat. Then I was like, oh, my God. You know, I so didn't expect to hear her

heartbeat. I think I had a scan every two weeks, because she was also the wrong way around and upside down and she was born with with talapies in both her feet so she didn't push her feet out that much because she had very you know that all her feet had to be broken when she was born and she um didn't kick so most moms they always hear the kick and feel the kick and so she that kind of i never knew she was inside me easily and then she was born early because i lost water and she was born sort of month and half early i didn't know what kind of mother i'd be like when you spend that long Elizabeth, you don't quite know would you be that natural, like

I had Susanna as a role model, who to me was this most incredible mother earth mother. Her kids came first, she was, but she didn't sort of treat them preciously. She was like, sort of get on with it, country style upbringing of don't be precious. You know, brilliant mum. And

she taught me a lot about being a mom. I mean, she had three by then and I had one. So I was obviously always going to be more precious with Lina. Yeah, she taught me a lot. I think What made me feel fully maternal was that I breastfed Lila for a year. And I did start working after three weeks of having Lila. And when I look back, I think, do I wish I'd spent longer not working?

But I kind of didn't have the option because I need to earn money. And I was the main breadwinner. But there were times when I was in America doing a TV show and living in this house and there were cables, everyone. Jenny would come up. So I could go breastfeed and take her away. And it was just like the weirdest thing. That breastfeeding of Lila, that moment of intimacy at the beginning of the evening

at the end of the evening, which I had for a year of just whatever else and however full life was because of the circumstances of our life, I think made me so close to her in that very, very raw level when you just look at your baby as it's feeding. So I learned to be a mother in that first year because when you're not ready to be a mother and then you think you want to be a mother and then you try to be a mother and you can't be a mother, you let go of the fact that you can you be a mother? I totally, totally understand that. And you think so much about it and you hear so much about it from other people that it becomes stressful in and of its own right, thinking, I'm fighting for this thing so hard and I don't even know whether I'm going to be any good

at it. Yeah, exactly that. And if you're somebody that by nature is such a fighter, you're a fighter, I'm a fighter, it's so hard to then decide do I let go or not because there's this fight for the sake of I need to fight for this because I feel this is a fight I should have, not is this a fight I want. And the hardest decision is for those people who decide IVF is not the right route, then there's a route of, is it that I really want to be a mother? So there are many other ways of being a mother. And what does that look like? And then you sometimes don't know, do I want to be a mother or do I want to be a blood mother? And how different are they to me as a concept. I have friends who are all those things. They're surrogate them, nothing to do with

the baby physically. They didn't have it even inside them. There all are mothers I look at who all mother in a different way who I really love and respect. And it's a choice. It's just your choice of what you want to do with your life, because it is going to be what life you give somebody else, but it's also what you want to do with your life. Oh, Trini. Thank you so much for what has been a really beautiful interview. These do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends.

This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.