How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - ON BODY IMAGE… With Martine Wright and Paloma Faith

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Starting point is 00:01:12 So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca.com. Hello there. I'm diving into the back catalogue, bringing you moments of insight, laughter and truth from past guests. These themed How to Fail episodes are a chance to reflect on the universal experiences that connect us all. This week we're looking at body image, how we see ourselves, and how those perceptions are shaped by life's challenges and experiences. Today, we're discussing a common theme that comes up among my guests.

Starting point is 00:02:00 how they feel about their physical selves, something everyone at some point has either struggled with personally or might know someone who has. Firstly, we hear from Paloma Faith from her original episode in February 2024. Paloma speaks about being thrown out of ballet school, age 10, because she showed signs of becoming curvy,

Starting point is 00:02:21 and that, apparently, wasn't the correct body for a ballet dancer. Then we go to a part of my conversation with the incredible British sitting volleyball player, Martine Wright. Martine lost both of her legs in the 7-7 London bombings in 2005 and speaks so eloquently about how she actually wouldn't change a thing. She's now a mother, a wife, a charity ambassador, certified pilot, and the recipient of an MBE. I hope this episode offers comfort to anyone who's ever struggled with body image

Starting point is 00:02:55 and acts as a reminder that there's beauty and strength in every single version of ourselves. Your first failure is being thrown out of ballet school age 10. Why were you thrown out? Because this is the really heartbreaking bit. I was thrown out because I showed signs of becoming curvy and that wasn't like the correct body for a ballet dancer. And I was really committed.

Starting point is 00:03:23 I was at like a proper ballet school. four times a week after school and then they told me that they didn't they just said we just don't feel like your body type will be suited which was a big moment which has probably influenced me I think I've got like a slightly I always talk about body positivity like I'm envious of it I'm really body negative I know I know Then I feel negative about being body negative because I feel like I should be being body positive. Yeah, you want to leave by example. You're desperate for it, but you can't.

Starting point is 00:04:03 Although I'm quite good at it with my children, I think. So as long as I can make two women be body positive, then I've succeeded. Setting realistic goals. But I think, yeah, it was a bit of a blow and then it made me sort of obsessed with it forever, basically. That was it. What form did that obsession take? I didn't ever develop an eating disorder, which I'm grateful for. But I did go on to dance school and I have body dysmorphia.

Starting point is 00:04:39 Like I don't act on it in sort of like addictive ways. But like it doesn't, sometimes I look at photos and I just think I was huge in that photo. But then I'll see the photo and be like, I wasn't. Like in my mind, it's like I was really sad at that point Because I felt I was overeating or whatever And then I'll see a picture of it or a video And be like, I've never been like, and I tell people as well I've said in interviews even and I won't say it today

Starting point is 00:05:10 I've said like my weight's always fluctuated And actually it really hasn't Like within half a stone But like the only time it ever did was postpartum And I was just really headstrong about it and I just got on with it. I just got rid of it. I was, I don't think I've ever, it's been as bad as it is in my mind, like the torment of it. And I really like you say, wish that I wasn't because I see other people owning who they are and owning their bodies and

Starting point is 00:05:42 I just feel like they're amazing and inspiring and all of that. I just can't get there. How much of that self-critical voice is actually you, do you think? And how much of it is conditioning, ballet school, the 90s being told that a bowl of special K a day was a good diet to shift those extra pounds. I know it's probably quite difficult to sort of separate all of those strands. Well, I call it the inner bully

Starting point is 00:06:11 because it's sort of a permanent thing and if you speak to anybody who's had sort of a successful career, most of them have quite allowed inner bully because it does also motivate you. And I think that actually when you talk about body relationship with your body, it's not usually about your actual body in a literal sense. It's to do with saying you can try harder. You've got to be better.

Starting point is 00:06:37 And I think like growing up, my mum was always really encouraging of me as I was and never put any pressure on me. I had some learning difficulties as a kid. And then suddenly just excelled overnight. And it was really strange. I was in the Hackney Gazette for doing really well in this underachieving school. But I was kind of like very bottom end until I was about 13, slow reader, slow at all these things. And my mum was just always like, you'll come to it in your own time.

Starting point is 00:07:09 And my dad was always like, even when I did well, he'd be like, why isn't it an A star? If I said, I got an A, that's how we graded it back then in the olden days. That's what my daughter calls me, in the olden days when you were little. It's like, I'm not that old. But then it just becomes this thing of like me always feeling like that child that was behind, always feeling like I needed to prove something. Even like once I'd got to dance school, one of the teachers called me to her office and was like, did you write this essay because it's extraordinary?

Starting point is 00:07:45 And I was like, yeah, but she goes, why do you present yourself as like a bit stupid? And I was like, do I? She's like, I don't, I can't believe you wrote it. And I was like, I just think that I'm not pretentious. Doesn't mean that I'm stupid. Anyway, all that stuff. It kind of like adds up, doesn't it? And over years and years it mounts and you're like, I have to prove this thing.

Starting point is 00:08:13 One of the reasons I was extremely keen to have you on this podcast is because I'm aware that I talk about failure a lot and so do my guests. But failure is different. when you experience the world in a different and marginalised way. I can have no idea of what failure is like from the perspective of a person of colour, someone who's homeless, someone who lives with a chronic illness. And I also can have no idea of what it's like to experience failure as a disabled person living in an able-bodied world. And I wondered if I could ask you to speak to that.

Starting point is 00:08:50 Has your notion of what failure is, changed according to the context of the world that you find yourself in? I think obviously you can't go through what I went through that day without it affecting your life and my life and all of our lives and all of the subsequent attacks that have since happened over the last 15 years. We can't get away from that. But I suppose has it changed as a disabled person? I suppose my whole journey has changed. When that happened on that morning, that Thursday morning, in that, I know it sounds cheesy, but in that split second of when that bomb went off, my life completely changed.

Starting point is 00:09:32 And as a result of that, I think my motivations, my failures, you know, what I see as failures, did change, did change with me. I am still in essence, Martin. I might have slightly shorter legs or thinner ankles, as I said. I say prosthetic legs, give you really thin ankles. But I have changed. And as a result, I think those failures and what you achieve have failed. I suppose I have changed as well.

Starting point is 00:09:57 And I suppose I liken it back to why I went off. And I think a big thing for a mindset or coping with the world that we live in now or have been living or how I've dealt with my life over the last 15 years, I think grabbing opportunities, not being scared of grabbing opportunities is really, really important. And I think I realised this very early on when I was in hospital because I was, I woke up and obviously I saw that I was someone else. I just kept looking down in my bed at that point and saying, I've got no legs, I've got no legs. I couldn't see, I thought my life was over. That was it.

Starting point is 00:10:32 I wanted to die. And I think the hardest thing to deal with for me, and when I speak to other patients in hospital, I'm a mentor now for people, a lot of the time they say the hardest thing to deal with was the memories of who I once was and how I used to do things. And I understand that. And I remember very early on in hospital thinking, my life is over. I'm not going to be able to do this. I was an international marketing manager's travel around the world. I had a big team of people. How was I going to do that now? And I think the main question I had to ask myself is really what I was going to do about it. All our journeys change. Our life changes. We might not even know what's going to happen in life. life and do it happens in life to us and I think it's just that ability to be able to cope with those memories and what I decided to do to cope with those memories is I decided to create new ones and I decided to I suppose grab those opportunities that I never ever thought that I would have an opportunity to do so for instance you've mentioned flying yeah I did go out to South Africa and did

Starting point is 00:11:42 about 55 hours of flying flying planes on my own but why did I do that I question myself why did I do that. Well, he wouldn't want to go to South Africa for six weeks till that's flat. Thanks. But why did I do that? Do you know why? Because I had in my brain, okay, I might not be able to run for that bus anymore. I might be not, I was obsessed with people walking along the road, aimlessly talking into a mobile phone. I can't do that. If I'm on my prosthetic legs, or if I'm in the world here, especially on my prosthetic legs, you know, the pavement out there is like the Himalayas. You can't concentrate on something else. So why did I want to do that? to jump out of a plane. Why did I want to, yeah, go off and fly planes? And it was about creating

Starting point is 00:12:25 those memories, but it was really about, okay, Elizabeth, you might be able to run 100 metres or run for that bus, but you know what I can do? I can fly a plane. And it was that strength that if I hadn't gone through this such a negative thing, or maybe a failure, a failure to get up that morning on time, I would never, ever have been able to create these amazing. new memories and do the things I want to do. So I suppose I think it did change. I think it did change. My brain changed. My brain had to cope with what happened. And as I said, you know, it's so important to go on those ups and downs because that's when you can figure out what you want to do. But I think a lot of the time it did change as a disabled person because I think

Starting point is 00:13:11 my successes and my failures, I was seeing it in a very new light and trying to take that failure as an opportunity really as, wow, I've got an opportunity to pick up an MBA to be awarded the Helen Rollison Award. I mean, you know, if you said back to me 15 years ago, Elizabeth, I would say, Elizabeth, you're off your rocker. I am not going to be a professional athlete. I am not going to get an MBA. I'm definitely not going to be a bomb victim. But that story, what happened that day or my story or what happened on that event has defined me. has defied me in who I am. But more importantly, the way I've dealt with it, it's been my choices. It's been the people that love me and support me. And ultimately, it has been my belief.

Starting point is 00:14:00 Oh, I could just listen to you talk for days on end. Sorry, I know, we're not from one there, didn't I? No, no, no, no. It was amazing. And we will get onto your failure to wake up on time that morning on 7th and July 2005, because it is one of your failures. just before we do, I wanted to ask you about what the world is like and whether it is friendly to disabled people. Because I remember reading this piece, it was an interview with you in a newspaper, and it was a description of your first visit to a disabled toilet. And I think you noticed a pedal bin, didn't you? They still do that now. Petal garages do that now with anti-back. I asked a woman yesterday, I was in a petrol garage, and I'm fine. I can put it.

Starting point is 00:14:45 my petro in. I don't need assistance, things like that. But, hmm, foot pump for the anti-back. And I sort of had my mask on and this woman walked past and go into the shop. And I said, excuse me, could I borrow your foot? She sort of looked at me. And I mean, for the anti-back. Is the world friendly to disabled people? Well, I suppose if there was a yes or no answer to that, I would say no.

Starting point is 00:15:06 I mean, there are inequalities in the world everywhere. I mean, look, what's going on in the moment, what's happening recently? those inequalities exist within our society. You know, you mentioned in the summary your intro, I am proud to say I'm a bow bell, got me. I was born in London and my whole family born in London. And London is not very good for access at all. That's a huge problem for me sometimes

Starting point is 00:15:33 because I do like to still spend quite a lot of time in London. But things are getting better, but all of us are responsible for this. All of us are responsible to communicate that with each other. And, yeah, as you said, yeah, in an interview, I had to point out that, yes, the first time I used disabled Lou that was in the hospital. It was actually in the hospital where I was strong enough the first time to actually go to the toilet on my own. And it was quite a nervy experience. I just looked at this footbin and think, somehow, I'm going to put it out.

Starting point is 00:16:07 And it was like, we're in a hospital. We're an amputee ward. I've got a foot, a foot pedal. And I do laugh about it, but obviously, I think in life, again, that's one of my mantras. We've got to smile, you've got to enjoy life, you've got to laugh because otherwise things would be really, really hard to deal with. Do you know, I just, I think that's, I'm so glad you said that about the antibacterial dispensers because I had never thought that.

Starting point is 00:16:34 And I think it's so important, we will have a duty to think about other people. who, for whatever reason, can't use that, or a handle will be too high, or just very small practical things that we all need to think more about. Yeah. But the thing about disability, think about race, really, and sexism is that we're all individuals. So what I would find hard, someone else might not find hard, or even psychologically, we're all very different. You know, I'm one of those people, I think maybe having a number.

Starting point is 00:17:10 understanding of what life is like before I was disabled. If now someone not necessarily wants to grab and push my chair, because I wouldn't necessarily say that, but if they want to open a door for me or if they want to go, can I get something from the top shelf in the supermarket? A lot of the time I go, all right, well, you get the top one. I'll get the bottom one because I'm good with the bottom ones. I don't get offended by that. You know, that's someone wanting to help. And I feel like sometimes we've all got an education, you know, we're all educators in society. You know, I look at my son. He's 11. He's such an educator just by the experience that he has at home with his mum being a Paralympian, being a amputee.

Starting point is 00:17:49 I think all of us have that responsibility to talk about things and educate people. And actually, I do think the last year, this COVID world where we're not all seeing each other face to face and we're not all in the same room, I feel like on the flip side, it's actually given us an insight into each other's motivation. the insight into people's homes, literally, seeing it through Zoom. And the first question isn't usually now, have you got that email? But it's, how's your family? Are you keeping well? Doesn't your kitchen look nice behind you? You know, it's all those things that I think really have made us realize that good

Starting point is 00:18:30 things come out about. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Calling all book lovers. The Toronto International Festival of Authors brings you a world of stories all in one place. Discover five days of readings, talks, workshops and more with over 100 authors from around the world, including Rachel Maddow, Ketourou Isaku and Kieran Desai. The Toronto International

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How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - ON BODY IMAGE… With Martine Wright and Paloma Faith

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