ON BODY IMAGE… With Martine Wright and Paloma Faith
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01:12So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether.That's the powerful backing of Amex.Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca.com.Hello there.I'm diving into the back catalogue, bringing you moments of insight, laughter and truth from past guests.These themed How to Fail episodes are a chance to reflect on the universal experiences that connect us all.This week we're looking at body image, how we see ourselves, and how those perceptions are shaped by life's challenges and experiences.Today, we're discussing a common theme that comes up among my guests.
02:00how they feel about their physical selves,something everyone at some pointhas either struggled with personallyor might know someone who has.Firstly, we hear from Paloma Faithfrom her original episode in February 2024.Paloma speaks about being thrown out of ballet school, age 10,because she showed signs of becoming curvy,
02:21and that, apparently, wasn't the correct body for a ballet dancer.Then we go to a part of my conversationwith the incredible British sitting volleyball player, Martine Wright.Martine lost both of her legs in the 7-7 London bombings in 2005and speaks so eloquently about how she actually wouldn't change a thing.She's now a mother, a wife, a charity ambassador, certified pilot,and the recipient of an MBE.I hope this episode offers comfort to anyone who's ever struggled with body image
02:55and acts as a reminder that there's beauty and strengthin every single version of ourselves.Your first failure is being thrown out of ballet school age 10.Why were you thrown out?Because this is the really heartbreaking bit.I was thrown out because I showed signs of becoming curvyand that wasn't like the correct body for a ballet dancer.And I was really committed.
03:23I was at like a proper ballet school.four times a week after school and then they told me that they didn't they just said we justdon't feel like your body type will be suited which was a big moment which has probablyinfluenced me I think I've got like a slightly I always talk about body positivity like I'menvious of it I'm really body negative I know I knowThen I feel negative about being body negative because I feel like I should be being body positive.Yeah, you want to leave by example.You're desperate for it, but you can't.
04:03Although I'm quite good at it with my children, I think.So as long as I can make two women be body positive, then I've succeeded.Setting realistic goals.But I think, yeah, it was a bit of a blow and then it made me sort of obsessed with it forever, basically.That was it.What form did that obsession take?I didn't ever develop an eating disorder, which I'm grateful for.But I did go on to dance school and I have body dysmorphia.
04:39Like I don't act on it in sort of like addictive ways.But like it doesn't, sometimes I look at photos and I just think I was huge in that photo.But then I'll see the photo and be like, I wasn't.Like in my mind, it's like I was really sad at that pointBecause I felt I was overeating or whateverAnd then I'll see a picture of it or a videoAnd be like, I've never been like, and I tell people as wellI've said in interviews even and I won't say it today
05:10I've said like my weight's always fluctuatedAnd actually it really hasn'tLike within half a stoneBut like the only time it ever did was postpartumAnd I was just really headstrongabout it and I just got on with it. I just got rid of it. I was, I don't think I've ever,it's been as bad as it is in my mind, like the torment of it. And I really like you say,wish that I wasn't because I see other people owning who they are and owning their bodies and
05:42I just feel like they're amazing and inspiring and all of that. I just can't get there.How much of that self-critical voice is actually you, do you think? And how much of it isconditioning, ballet school,the 90s being told that a bowl of special K a daywas a good diet to shift those extra pounds.I know it's probably quite difficultto sort of separate all of those strands.Well, I call it the inner bully
06:11because it's sort of a permanent thingand if you speak to anybody who's had sort of a successful career,most of them have quite allowed inner bullybecause it does also motivate you.And I think that actually when you talk about body relationship with your body,it's not usually about your actual body in a literal sense.It's to do with saying you can try harder.You've got to be better.
06:37And I think like growing up, my mum was always really encouraging of me as I wasand never put any pressure on me.I had some learning difficulties as a kid.And then suddenly just excelled overnight.And it was really strange.I was in the Hackney Gazette for doing really well in this underachieving school.But I was kind of like very bottom end until I was about 13, slow reader, slow at all these things.And my mum was just always like, you'll come to it in your own time.
07:09And my dad was always like, even when I did well, he'd be like, why isn't it an A star?If I said, I got an A, that's how we graded it back then in the olden days.That's what my daughter calls me, in the olden days when you were little.It's like, I'm not that old.But then it just becomes this thing of like me always feeling like that child that was behind,always feeling like I needed to prove something.Even like once I'd got to dance school, one of the teachers called me to her office and was like,did you write this essay because it's extraordinary?
07:45And I was like, yeah, but she goes, why do you present yourself as like a bit stupid?And I was like, do I?She's like, I don't, I can't believe you wrote it.And I was like, I just think that I'm not pretentious.Doesn't mean that I'm stupid.Anyway, all that stuff.It kind of like adds up, doesn't it?And over years and years it mounts and you're like, I have to prove this thing.
08:13One of the reasons I was extremely keen to have you on this podcast is because I'm aware that I talk about failure a lot and so do my guests.But failure is different.when you experience the world in a different and marginalised way.I can have no idea of what failure is like from the perspective of a person of colour,someone who's homeless, someone who lives with a chronic illness.And I also can have no idea of what it's like to experience failure as a disabled personliving in an able-bodied world.And I wondered if I could ask you to speak to that.
08:50Has your notion of what failure is,changed according to the context of the world that you find yourself in?I think obviously you can't go through what I went through that day without it affectingyour life and my life and all of our lives and all of the subsequent attacks that havesince happened over the last 15 years. We can't get away from that. But I suppose has it changedas a disabled person? I suppose my whole journey has changed.When that happened on that morning, that Thursday morning, in that, I know it sounds cheesy,but in that split second of when that bomb went off, my life completely changed.
09:32And as a result of that, I think my motivations, my failures, you know, what I see as failures,did change, did change with me.I am still in essence, Martin.I might have slightly shorter legs or thinner ankles, as I said.I say prosthetic legs, give you really thin ankles.But I have changed.And as a result, I think those failures and what you achieve have failed.I suppose I have changed as well.
09:57And I suppose I liken it back to why I went off.And I think a big thing for a mindset or coping with the world that we live in now or have been living or how I've dealt with my life over the last 15 years,I think grabbing opportunities, not being scared of grabbing opportunities is really, really important.And I think I realised this very early on when I was in hospital because I was,I woke up and obviously I saw that I was someone else.I just kept looking down in my bed at that point and saying, I've got no legs, I've got no legs.I couldn't see, I thought my life was over.That was it.
10:32I wanted to die.And I think the hardest thing to deal with for me, and when I speak to other patients in hospital, I'm a mentor now for people,a lot of the time they say the hardest thing to deal with was the memories of who I once was and how I used to do things.And I understand that. And I remember very early on in hospital thinking, my life is over. I'm not going to be able to do this. I was an international marketing manager's travel around the world. I had a big team of people. How was I going to do that now? And I think the main question I had to ask myself is really what I was going to do about it. All our journeys change. Our life changes. We might not even know what's going to happen in life.life and do it happens in life to us and I think it's just that ability to be able to cope with thosememories and what I decided to do to cope with those memories is I decided to create new onesand I decided to I suppose grab those opportunities that I never ever thought that I would have anopportunity to do so for instance you've mentioned flying yeah I did go out to South Africa and did
11:42about 55 hours of flying flying planes on my own but why did I do that I question myself why did I dothat. Well, he wouldn't want to go to South Africa for six weeks till that's flat. Thanks. But why didI do that? Do you know why? Because I had in my brain, okay, I might not be able to run for thatbus anymore. I might be not, I was obsessed with people walking along the road, aimlessly talkinginto a mobile phone. I can't do that. If I'm on my prosthetic legs, or if I'm in the world here,especially on my prosthetic legs, you know, the pavement out there is like the Himalayas. You can'tconcentrate on something else. So why did I want to do that?to jump out of a plane. Why did I want to, yeah, go off and fly planes? And it was about creating
12:25those memories, but it was really about, okay, Elizabeth, you might be able to run 100 metresor run for that bus, but you know what I can do? I can fly a plane. And it was that strength thatif I hadn't gone through this such a negative thing, or maybe a failure, a failure to get upthat morning on time, I would never, ever have been able to create these amazing.new memories and do the things I want to do. So I suppose I think it did change. I think it didchange. My brain changed. My brain had to cope with what happened. And as I said, you know,it's so important to go on those ups and downs because that's when you can figure out what youwant to do. But I think a lot of the time it did change as a disabled person because I think
13:11my successes and my failures, I was seeing it in a very new light and trying to take thatfailure as an opportunity really as, wow, I've got an opportunity to pick up an MBA to beawarded the Helen Rollison Award. I mean, you know, if you said back to me 15 years ago,Elizabeth, I would say, Elizabeth, you're off your rocker. I am not going to be a professionalathlete. I am not going to get an MBA. I'm definitely not going to be a bomb victim. But thatstory, what happened that day or my story or what happened on that event has defined me.has defied me in who I am. But more importantly, the way I've dealt with it, it's been my choices.It's been the people that love me and support me. And ultimately, it has been my belief.
14:00Oh, I could just listen to you talk for days on end.Sorry, I know, we're not from one there, didn't I?No, no, no, no. It was amazing. And we will get onto your failure to wake up on time that morning on 7th and July 2005, because it is one of your failures.just before we do, I wanted to ask you about what the world is like and whether it is friendlyto disabled people. Because I remember reading this piece, it was an interview with youin a newspaper, and it was a description of your first visit to a disabled toilet. And I thinkyou noticed a pedal bin, didn't you? They still do that now. Petal garages do that now with anti-back.I asked a woman yesterday, I was in a petrol garage, and I'm fine. I can put it.
14:45my petro in. I don't need assistance, things like that.But, hmm, foot pump for the anti-back.And I sort of had my mask on and this woman walked past and go into the shop.And I said, excuse me, could I borrow your foot?She sort of looked at me.And I mean, for the anti-back.Is the world friendly to disabled people?Well, I suppose if there was a yes or no answer to that, I would say no.
15:06I mean, there are inequalities in the world everywhere.I mean, look, what's going on in the moment, what's happening recently?those inequalities exist within our society.You know, you mentioned in the summary your intro,I am proud to say I'm a bow bell, got me.I was born in London and my whole family born in London.And London is not very good for access at all.That's a huge problem for me sometimes
15:33because I do like to still spend quite a lot of time in London.But things are getting better,but all of us are responsible for this.All of us are responsible to communicate that with each other.And, yeah, as you said, yeah, in an interview, I had to point out that, yes, the first time I used disabled Lou that was in the hospital.It was actually in the hospital where I was strong enough the first time to actually go to the toilet on my own.And it was quite a nervy experience.I just looked at this footbin and think, somehow, I'm going to put it out.
16:07And it was like, we're in a hospital.We're an amputee ward.I've got a foot, a foot pedal.And I do laugh about it, but obviously, I think in life, again, that's one of my mantras.We've got to smile, you've got to enjoy life, you've got to laugh because otherwise thingswould be really, really hard to deal with.Do you know, I just, I think that's, I'm so glad you said that about the antibacterial dispensersbecause I had never thought that.
16:34And I think it's so important, we will have a duty to think about other people.who, for whatever reason, can't use that, or a handle will be too high,or just very small practical things that we all need to think more about.Yeah.But the thing about disability, think about race, really, and sexism is that we're all individuals.So what I would find hard, someone else might not find hard,or even psychologically, we're all very different.You know, I'm one of those people, I think maybe having a number.
17:10understanding of what life is like before I was disabled. If now someone not necessarily wantsto grab and push my chair, because I wouldn't necessarily say that, but if they want to opena door for me or if they want to go, can I get something from the top shelf in the supermarket?A lot of the time I go, all right, well, you get the top one. I'll get the bottom one becauseI'm good with the bottom ones. I don't get offended by that. You know, that's someone wantingto help. And I feel like sometimes we've all got an education, you know, we're all educatorsin society. You know, I look at my son.He's 11. He's such an educator just by the experience that he has at home with his mum being a Paralympian, being a amputee.
17:49I think all of us have that responsibility to talk about things and educate people.And actually, I do think the last year, this COVID world where we're not all seeing each other face to face and we're not all in the same room, I feel like on the flip side, it's actually given us an insight into each other's motivation.the insight into people's homes, literally, seeing it through Zoom.And the first question isn't usually now, have you got that email?But it's, how's your family?Are you keeping well?Doesn't your kitchen look nice behind you?You know, it's all those things that I think really have made us realize that good
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