How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - ON FRIENDSHIP… With Dawn French and Vogue Williams

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

I’ve always been obsessed with friendship - how it shapes us, challenges us and often goes uncelebrated. In this episode, both Dawn French and Vogue Williams get honest about the beauty and the messiness of it all. Despite being surrounded by great friends, Vogue explains why she worries she’s not the best friend back - although she’s definitely working on it. Dawn then reflects on growing up as an RAF kid. Repeated moves meant she learned early on how hard it can be to build and keep connections. She also talks about her iconic friendship with Jennifer Saunders (which did *not* start smoothly) and the people she holds closest today. My fascination with the subject runs so deep that I even wrote a whole book about it! Friendaholic: Confessions of a Friendship Addict explores why friendship matters and how it evolves over our lives. Feel free to buy a copy for you…and all your friends! Listen to Dawn French’s full episode of How to Fail here: swap.fm/l/NJDrzxLKhyi6icOrxmHT Listen to Vogue Williams’ full episode of How to Fail here: swap.fm/l/KdIrVp0y41qgun1oGjfR 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @howtofailpod @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod @elizabday Website: www.elizabethday.org Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just use the code Happy15 at checkout. Hello and welcome to this week's Throwback How to Fail, where I take a look at two past episodes on an interesting theme. This week, it's one of my personal favorites. It's friendship. You're going to hear from Vogue Williams, who recently left the jungle on I'm a Celebrity. And before she went on that show, she came on How to Fail and spoke so eloquently about how she feels really lucky to have a lot of great friends. But she doesn't always feel like she's a particularly good friend. in return. Still, she is working on it, and that's all we can ask. Meanwhile, Dawn French grew up as an RAF child. So her family moved around a lot, making maintaining friendships quite challenging. She talks openly about her friendship with Jennifer Saunders and how they

didn't actually like each other at first. And she discusses her closest friends. First up, it's Vogue. your final failure is friendship failure yes why did you choose this this is because of you it is so I read your book I loved it

friendaholic and I think that anyone who has read it it touches a nerve with everyone because it's like it makes you just see so much of yourself within what you're saying about your friends and I really when I was reading it I was like God I'm so lucky to have

so many great friends but I really feel like I'm not being a good friend to them. And because of you, I just went to a baby share in Leeds last week, which I would have said no to. So it's one of my really close friends from home. And she's having a baby. She lives in Leeds. And like, I've never made the effort to go and even see her in Leeds.

And I'm only in London. And I was like, no, I'm going to do it. Because after reading your book, I was like, I'm being such a bad friend. And I had such a great time. And loads of my friends had come over from Dublin. And it was really nice. And now I've said yes to two weddings. You've got me really busy.

But I think, I'm sorry, but also I'm so proud of you. I know. It's so good to be because I think that you can really take your friends for granted, especially if they've been your friends for, like I've got like some of my best friends are my friends since I was 12. They're probably my longest friends. And then like I'm lucky with Joanne. Joanne and I have been friends since I am like 18, I think.

And we spend time together because we have our podcast together. So that's how we kind of see each other. But even with the two of us, we're kind of like, right, we need to start, like, doing fun things together. Can't just be about work. So we were out last night and tonight we're going to Magic Mike. Fun. I know, I can't wait. But I think friendships do feel like a failure to me because I haven't put them first.

Definitely in the last, like, six years since I've had kids. I think when I had kids, it was family work and then friendships like in and around it sometimes. And now I'm trying to just have better friendships. look after the friends that I have because they're so important to me. And even like we went on holidays at Easter and we had like one group of friends the first week and another group of friends the second week. And it was really nice to just get to spend time of people like that. But it is hard to find time for friends. But it's so important because they're the ones that they'll be, you're constant in your life forever if you nurture them. And that was actually

to enter your book. Oh, thank you so much for saying that. And in a sense, even though I didn't have my own children. That phase of my friends having their children was really challenging for certain friendships because obviously your attention is focused in different directions and life is busy and it can be really hard to carve out a space. But I think with the friendships that I most value, there's that generosity of spirit that I write about in the book where our default is to think the best of each other and to acknowledge that we might not see each other as much as we'd like because there are so many competing factors in our diaries. But when we do see each other, there's no guilt. That's the key. Yes. Like, and even with, like, when I saw

the girls from home at the baby shower, like it was just like you just pick it up again. And you don't want to have that guilt because you do feel guilty about it. But then when I was speaking to them, I was like, oh, are you guys always hanging out and stuff? And they were like, no, we never see each other because life gets in the way and everyone's really busy but I think it is important but like for me as well it's really important

to have separate friends to Speno as well like of course he's friendly with all my friends as well but like I like having my own friendship groups where I go off because he doesn't want to do all the things that I want to do

and vice versa but it's even important but it's even important that you had that conversation with your friends about because you were clearly feeling A, guilty, but B, like you had a fear that they were all carrying on their friendships without you in a way

because you hadn't shown up. And actually to have that really honest conversation brings you closer. Because they're like, of course we're not hanging out all the time and it's just so lovely to see you. And then that kind of gives you impetus to keep going then for a few more months. But what for you is friendship?

How would you define it? What for you makes a good friendship? A lot of my friends, like, well, actually pretty much all of my friends, other than those that I would consider friends, but more acquaintances kind of thing, would feel like family to me. So they really would feel as close as that. And it's friends or people who are just there for you, like, when you need them, you're there for them. And they have to bring like a joy into your life as well. Like I've had friends that I've had to remove for my life and some people that I really like. And I just thought you're just, you're not bringing what I need into my life, you're just kind of bringing, I just, if you can't trust somebody as well, I think that it's really strange when you think that somebody has a different agenda, I'm just really, I'm very consider of who I want to spend my time with, because time is short. Like, you don't have that much free time, particularly when you're working and stuff like that. And I think it's important to spend it with people who just bring you happiness and add to your happiness and you add to their happiness. It has to be like a two-way thing.

You can't just be expecting so much off a friend and not giving anything back, but it's something that you should want to give back without even trying. How has being famous affected your friendships? Because you are someone who is instantly recognizable visually and through your voice and also someone who thousands of people want to be friends with. And potentially myself included, I'm putting myself at the top of that list, but also maybe even think they are friends with you, definitely myself included,

because there's an intimacy to podcasting and to reality TV where you constantly show up as yourself. And so is that a struggle sometimes maintaining boundaries because people want to be your friend and you have to be selective about who is actually allowed in?

I think that I'm quite clever about it and I don't think that I've had to try that hard with it. There's definitely been a couple of people that I've let in where I'm like, shouldn't have let you in. But I don't hold bad feelings towards those people. It just isn't a friendship that I would want to continue. But there are people that I would have in my life, and you have some in your book as well, that you kind of keep a little bit at arm's length, because although you like spending time in their company, they're probably not really great for you as well.

Yes, but how do you do that? How do you keep them at arm's length? I kind of, they're not people, they're people that I'd see at things. Okay. So you wouldn't. So you wouldn't continue the communication via WhatsApp afterwards or? No, not too much. Maybe a tiny bit of communication, but they wouldn't be, I'd see them at events and stuff like that, but they're probably not somebody that I'm going to go, oh, let's go hang out and let's go have a coffee or let's go for dinner. And what about Spencer's attitude to friendship? Is that different from yours? He's like your husband, Justin, where he pretends he has no friends, but he has loads of friends. Spenny will like tell you that I don't care about friends. I don't have any friends.

And it's like Spencer, like you've so many friends. And he kind of latch, he loves new people. So like he'll have a flavor of them. He can't help himself, but he'd be. He does have, like, he's very close to my brother Alexander who lives with us. He loves his company. He loves my cousin Killian. So it's a real problem with Spencer and I ever break up because they're coming with me. Do you think your sister Amber is one of your best friends? Is there a difference between being someone's sibling, being related to them and being a friend? I don't really feel like that. I really feel like she's my best friend, but she's somebody who will get away with whatever she does. She'll always get away with it. Where I think is if you have a friend who really does something that, they shouldn't do. You'd probably say, listen, I'm kind of out. Whereas with a sister, they can do whatever they want. But Amber and I have been best friends since we were very small. We've always spent all our time together. We ring each other honestly about four or five times a day. We're always on to each other. And she really is a very, she's my best of best friends. Spencer hates me saying that because he's like, I'm your best friend. I'm like Amber is.

You mentioned earlier about some friendships that have fallen by the wayside. Have you ever had to end friendship? And have you ever actually addressed that conflict head on? I have had about three friendships that ended. One was a very long-standing friendship. And it just, you know what? How long would it be now? It's been about five years now. But it was just one of those things. And like, I know that she's happy. I know that I'm happy. But there wasn't like a huge conversation around it. It was kind of like a falling out by the end of it, but I could feel it coming for a while. And so that stopped. And like, you feel kind of sad because you're like, God, we spent so much time together. But like, again, life just goes on. There's no bad feelings, I think, on either part for sure now.

And then other friendships have ended because like there was a kind of little trust issue where I'm just like, I don't know about you now. And also, sometimes when people surround themselves With people that aren't good people, you're like, oh, you kind of have to question why that they are, that they want to do that when you know it's not even good for them. So sometimes that happens as well. And do you tend to just then drop out of communication or you less than frequency? No, I would let them know. You'd let them know. Yeah. Excuse me. We are not friends anymore. That's so, that's so admirable. I think, well, it's happened so rarely that like, and there's always been reasons for it happening that it's kind of, you can't really do. I don't understand. I don't understand. stand the ghosting thing, like that friend in your book who ghosted you, I find that, like, I find it really strange to do something like that to somebody. I think like even ghosting when you're, like, I've been ghosted when I was kind of going out with somebody and I was mad about him. And then all of a sudden it was just like less and less and less. I think it's the meanest thing to do to somebody. I just think it's like a real cowardly, although people think

they're being nice by doing it that way, whereas I just think just tell them. So you have told someone, I'm sorry, I don't trust you anymore, so I don't feel safe in this friendship. That's actually amazing. Yeah. I mean, there were reasons behind it. Face to face. Face to face. No, it was on the phone.

Okay. But there are reasons behind it. Yes. Yeah. I think that's really, sorry, you're speaking to someone who is historically so conflict avoidant, that that for me is just mind-blowing and really admirable. But I think that there's something really important here

about clarity being the ultimate act of love and friendship in a way. So you're ending the friendship in the most loving way. way by being clear. Yeah. And then everyone knows where they stand. And like, I always think no matter what happens, I think it's really sad to lose a friendship. But I think even with conflict, like, I don't love conflict.

I'd be very rational with stuff and like I like talking about things. I don't, I'm not a, like Spencer brushes everything under the rug, like everything. We could have an argument and he's like, oh, oh, are you still annoyed about that? Like, I'm done with that. I'm like, but we haven't spoken about it. And he's like, no, I'm finished with that now. And I'm like, no, that's not how I work. I have to sit and chat, chat things through.

And he hates doing that as well. Well, I'm relieved that I am actually, I'm weaseling my way into your friendship. You don't need to weasel. You're in. Oh, my gosh, Vogue, thank you. You're in mind, genuinely. And if we ever have conflict, which we never will.

Ever, ever. We'll go see a therapist together. We'll go see a friendship therapist, exactly. And you're going to live next door to me. And our bedrooms will look into each other's windows. I can't wait for this. And your stepfather will come and read the Hobbit in between our two bedrooms. and give aid to us as well and make us hoover the house.

I can't wait. I can't wait. And what is it about military childhoods? Because you were the daughter of someone who worked for the RAF. So was Jennifer Saunders. And Aid Edmondson, his parents were in the military. His dad was a teacher, but worked with the army, I think, yes. Yes. And then there's Abbey, who we employed at Saunders and French, which was our company. we saw a lot of people to come and be a PA for us, or fact totem, as she called herself.

We chose her immediately because she had an RAF background. So you're drawn to other people. I mean, I didn't know that about Jennifer when I first met her. But, you know, the more I loved her, the more I realized this is part of why I loved her. It's because you have this itinerant childhood, because you're constantly moving. You've never lived in the same house for longer than a year. You've never had the same friends for longer than a year. you're constantly putting on a personality fireworks display

to make sure that you inveigle yourself into new friendship groups and you're not bullied or rejected. So you learn a bit of sort of social manners and you learn techniques. It's exhausting, actually. It's exhausting. And my mother used to say that I was a sleepwalker. And I think that was where perhaps it showed,

the stress of it showed, but as a child. I didn't rest easy, I don't think. but it teaches you to be gregarious and to be ready for new adventures, if you like. People who have moved around a lot, people who understand the weird class system that exists inside the military. Oh, I don't know. There are so many things about how you live, where you live, in particular kinds of houses, and you move from that house to another camp in another part of the country,

but to a house that looks exactly the same with the same furniture. But now new people, you know, and you can never quite keep a table. dog and you can never, you know, you're moving and you're abroad and then your dad's away from you for two years and, you know, it's all very weird. And so it's a relief when you meet other people who've had the same experience because you don't have to explain it. What do you think, French and Saunders and your long, long collaboration, both personal and professional with Jennifer, who I know you call Fatty Saunders, what do you think it's taught you about friendship? Oh, goodness, so much.

Well, you know, first of all, as you said, we did not really like each other on first sight. We're very different. We still are very different. I believe we're from different classes, if that still is even a conversation. I know it's more of a mushy scenario these days. When I talk to my kids about class, they don't know what I'm talking about. They literally don't understand what I mean. But I think it's still very, it's implied now rather than spoken about openly. But the fact that we constantly vote old Detonians into office, which suggests that there's some disjunctious, really, actually, isn't it? Yeah, so when I met Jennifer, I mean, you know, I regarded her as out of my league entirely for lots of reasons. She was seemingly confident, seemingly.

She was very beautiful. She was an officer's daughter. Now, when you are in the military, these ranks mean everything. thing. The officers live at the other end of the camp. They have detached houses. They have houses with bathrooms with sinks in. You know, there are huge things that make you very different from them. And so I'm part of the oik end of the camp. And really, I didn't mix with the officers' kids. And suddenly, she's an officer's kid. So I was thinking, you're not the type I mix with. She's slightly plummy voice. But I was so wrong. You know, this is why you should never

judge the book. Never do that. And I have a prejudice against posh people. I realise I've always had it, and I still think I have it a little bit. A posh person has to kind of earn my respect before I can freely give it in a way I would to somebody else, which is mad, really, and I should have learnt these lessons by now. But as soon as we were friends and we shared a flat together, then I thought, oh, that's ludicrous. But she did different things to me. She was invited to things called drinks parties.

She would get invitations, proper embossed invitations. And they'd be on the mantelpiece. And they'd say, you know, Jennifer is invited by Fee-fi-blooddly-blooddy-blooddy. You know, somebody double-barreled. Two drinks in Chelsea between six and eight on Wednesday. And I think, what is that? Who is fiddly-buddly? Who is she?

Why only drinks? Well, you're not going to have your tea. you're not going to have anything to eat why are you going for drinks what drink what's standing about and drinking this is not something I'd ever heard of and I went to a couple of these things with her and they were pretty horrendous but

these were young people mimicking their parents behaviour of having their friends round for drinks you know this was not something I'd ever heard of you know so she showed me all kinds of things like that and I know that I was just

I was very chippy and I think I was a bit blood. I also, my dad had just died and I was dripping with grief and trying to cover that up. So I think I was not quite entirely authentic, really. But she understood that with time. So, yeah, we were very, very different.

And it was only when we kind of fell in love with each other, when we lived together, that all of those prejudices melted away. I love that language falling in platonic love. it's so important. Absolutely. I don't want to gloss over the fact that your father died by suicide

and we'll come back to that. I'm so sorry you went through that at that age. Thank you. A lot of what you say about Jennifer, I can apply to my own best friend. We didn't like each other. I didn't really like her at first sight. I thought she seemed really confident.

I was like, she's not going to be for the likes of me. And I think it's the most sustaining, most consistent love of my life. And I think the thing that Emma has taught me is that there's great safety in our attachment. So we can have periods where we've had like one rupture that was then repaired and made us closer. Yes, okay.

Have you experienced that with Jennifer? Yes, but you've got to remember, Jennifer is my very, very, very close friend. But I also have a bestie that's aside from Jennifer. And in fact, I have other friends as well. So I have a little group, a little caucus of really beloved, valuable female friends. And probably in that I'd put a gay friend to a gay man who is, sort of honorary woman in that gang of people that, as you say, I feel entirely safe with who know me inside out and who support me inside out and for whom I would support them in

exactly the same way. But Jennifer is right up there. And yes, I think I've never had a rupture, your word, with Jennifer. I have with my bestie, which we similarly recovered from and learnt from. And it was incredibly painful because you could can't believe that you would have such a tearing with somebody you love so much. But of course, that's when it's going to hurt because you love them so much. But Jennifer and I have a different kind of system. And I think it's because we work together as well as play together, which is that we take a sort of constant temperature of each other. So we never have got to a difficult row. We've never had a route. We might have had a bit of sulking. And even that, I can hardly remember

any of that. We seem to have a kind of innate compromise kind of gauge. And I think this comes from working together. So because we're writing together, we understand what the other person is contributing and who came up with the idea and who's writing it down and who's had the most to do with it. But we will get to a moment when, I can think of one sketch we did particularly, Well, I had quite strong feelings about the way it should go, and she had strong feelings the other way. And it was as if I thought, you know, I took the temperature at that moment and thought, actually, she wrote this.

It was her idea. This is the time to surrender. You know, given this is her baby, I need to follow here. And she does the same for me. And I don't even know how we navigate it, but we do. And that is a testament to strong, empowering, female, understanding friendships. Yes. I also love something you said in the past about how you might have felt jealous about the Ab-Fab success that Jennifer had. But because you loved her so much, the pride overwhelmed the jealousy.

You could feel both things and actually the positive win-out. I've never heard someone put that into words before and it's so true. Well, you have a cocktail of emotions. That's what you have. And I'm imagining it's very akin to what being a sister is like. I don't have a sister. I've got a sister-in-law who I love very much. But I don't have a sister. And I'm imagining this must be what sisters have to navigate all the time. You know, who's the favourite, who's the most successful, who's managed this, who's, does the other one feel failed because this one has succeeded? I imagine it's a bit like that, like a sisterhood. And so, yeah, again, what I'm all for is owning the rather ugly little moments of jealousy or failure or anything you're feeling that's a bit difficult. And explain it to the

other person because we're all human. And if that other person has it explained to them, they can help you through it. It's so much easier that. So much easier. And then he had the vicar of Dibbley anyway. So who's laughing now? Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.