How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - ON IVF… With Jessel Taank and Paloma Faith

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

We don’t talk about this enough, even though so many of us face it personally or through someone we love. Real Housewives of New York star, Jessel Taank, opens up about her three-year journey to become a mum; the strain it put on her marriage, the financial toll and the moments during five rounds of IVF when she questioned everything - even whether she truly wanted motherhood. And then… she had twins. Paloma Faith also shares her own IVF experience, from the loneliness and an ectopic pregnancy to postpartum psychosis and depression after her first baby. Today, she’s a mum of two and recently announced she’s expecting her third. As someone who’s been through IVF myself, I hope this episode offers comfort, connection and a reminder that you’re not alone - no matter where you are on this journey. Listen to Jessel Taank’s full episode of How to Fail here: https://tinyurl.com/jesseltaank Listen to Paloma Faith full episode of How to Fail here: https://play.megaphone.fm/rq-vrlg6sla2hyboi6znkq 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @howtofailpod @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod @elizabday Website: www.elizabethday.org Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome back to this week's episode reflecting on some of the best bits from the How to Fail Archive. This week we're taking a look at an extremely important and personally resonant for me topic. and that is IVF. I'm someone who herself has gone through several unsuccessful rounds of fertility treatment and I'm really passionate about making the conversation as open as it can be to destigmatise it because a lot of us carry misplaced shame.

Jassel Tank is a key cast member in the Real Housewives of New York and when she came on How to Fail early this year, she talked so openly and honestly about her three-year struggle to become a mum of twins. She talked about how she took her frustration out on her husband, how it took a toll on them financially,

and how during her five rounds of IVF, she questioned her whole relationship and whether she even wanted to be a mother in the first place. She then talks about the euphoria of finding out that she was pregnant and also the reality of having twins. Paloma Faith also went through IVF, and she speaks about the isolation she experienced, She also talks about an ectopic pregnancy, postpartum psychosis and depression, and the other experiences she went through after her first baby.

She now has two daughters, and you might have heard that she recently announced she's pregnant with her third. Congratulations to Paloma. As someone who has walked some of this journey myself, I really do hope that this episode brings a little comfort, whether you're going through it personally or you know someone who is. First up then, here's Jessel Tank Okay, let's get on to your second failure which is your failure to balance motherhood with personal ambition. I'm so, so happy that you're going to talk about this Jessel.

I really am. And when I knew you were coming on the podcast and I asked if your failures, I was hoping that you'd bring something around motherhood up because you won't remember this, but I watched you the first season of Real Housewives. We didn't know each other. but you spoke openly so profoundly and movingly about IVF and I have also been through that

unsuccessfully but I felt so seen in what you were saying and you expressed yourself with such eloquence and sensitivity for those of us who understand it and I DM'd you because I'm so grateful and you got back to me so it was very nice of you that that's why I'm really happy that we get a chance to talk about it in more depth so tell me why you chose this it's a big part of I think who I am today I still struggle with it. Growing up, when people would ask me, and I'm sure a lot of women get asked this question, how many kids do you want? And it's such a simple question. And I would always laugh and say, oh, I don't want kids. I would love a dog. I think as women, you are expected

to bear children, and that is the role, right? Like, it's as soon as you get married, it's like, what are you having kids? Or, you know, it's just something that is almost like forced to upon us. The truth is I was never maternal or I never felt maternal. I was always very ambitious and I always, when I think about my successes, it was always surrounding my career. So when I did get married, I always felt like the next step in the process was to have kids. And, you know, we did delay it as much as we could. I wanted to travel and really experience, you know, the as much as I could. But there came a time where I knew my husband really wanted kids. And so when we started trying and it wasn't happening, I was really, you know, I was like, wow,

like maybe this isn't meant to be. But then it took a whole other turn for me because motherhood became really, really hard or trying to be, you know, a mother became really stressful. And it just kind of took a dive from there, I think. I almost became really frustrated. I became almost a shell of myself because I was then putting all this energy into trying to have kids. And I put almost my career on the back burner. And I think I was mentally checking out because I was like, okay, here we are. We're like in the thick of it. It took me three years to have kids. And I was like, those three years, I could have really focused on other things, you know. Yeah. I think when you go through IVF, I mean, I was very ignorant and naive when I first started doing IVF. And I did not realize that it's essentially like taking on a whole other job. And if you already have a job, and not only if you have a job, but if you are someone as you are who is used to applying yourself and getting the results, it's very difficult then to be pitched into this world of uncertainty and ambiguity where you are doing all of the work. And sometimes the results just aren't fair.

They're not happening for you. Did you feel like you were failing? Yes. So did I. 100%. It's actually a large part of the reason why I launched this podcast. And I think, and I don't know if you relate to this, but part of the reason I felt I was failing was the social conditioning that you're talking

about, the idea that it's our biological imperative as women. But also I felt failed by my own body. And I felt that the medical language around fertility for women is often the language of failure. that the phrases that often male clinicians use are the phrases of failure. So you have an incompetent cervix or an inhospitable womb or you're failing to respond to medication. And that just really worms its way inside your psyche. And I don't know if that, if you had that experience too.

Yeah, very much. I think, you know, it is very much a social taboo to like, or a cultural taboo even, like not be able to have kids at the blink of an eye, you know, and it took the fun, it sucked the fun out of it for me. Like then at that point, being a mother wasn't going to be fun because I already went through so much. And, you know, again, like you are put in this like little bucket of like, oh, well, you know, here you go. It's something that you're going to have to deal with. It's going to be such a struggle for you to get pregnant. And it's all,

It's a big reason why I wasn't so open and honest about what I was going through because I didn't want people to look at me in that way as a failure and gossip and talk about how I wasn't able to, like, have kids. Because you didn't tell your family. It was really just you and Pavit going through it, just the two of you. Yeah, and a few friends who I chose to tell. And can you take us back to what impact that had on your relationship at the time that you were going through it and you weren't sure whether you could get pregnant?

Yeah, I think I blamed him a lot. It wasn't his fault, but because he was the only person that was, you know, in this with me, I took a lot of frustration out on him. And I think that he handled it like a pro, like he handles most things. But he was really my punching bag through the entire process. Financially, it took a toll on us. I mean, what were we like 100 grand, maybe 150 grand in at this point? And with, no feasible light at the end of the tunnel. Like, that's a down payment on a house. You know, it was, it took a, it was a very, very tough time for us in our relationship. I just remember one night, I got the results of my third egg retrieval and it was the same, you know, song and dance, like nothing was viable. And I just remember like thinking, am I even supposed to be where I am right now? Like, is this a sign where I should be doing something completely different? Like, should I even be married? Should I just like end this right now and just be, you know, a successful entrepreneur and do it on my own?

Like those were the thoughts that were going through my head because you just don't like, if something's not working and it's hard and you're like roughing it out, you're like, is this a sign that this is not my destiny? Yes, I totally relate to that. Yeah. And do you mind my asking how many rounds you had to do? Yeah, I did five in the end. You're so strong. How many did you do? I did two. So I did, this is a whole other podcast. I was married before and I did two rounds in that marriage and those two rounds were unsuccessful but also highlighted that I wanted it more than he did. And then I got pregnant naturally and had a miscarriage at three months. And that was devastating and ultimately the end of our marriage for various other reasons. It was kind of the catalyst. And then I was 36. being like, oh, well, now what do I do? Do I concentrate on trying to find a fulfilling relationship or do I try and get pregnant? And so I froze my eggs, very disappointing

results, all of that failed to respond to the drugs. And then I met my now husband on a dating app and we got pregnant naturally, just after my 41st birthday, had another miscarriage. But then that showed us how much we wanted it. And so then I did various procedures and we ended up having another miscarriage and then I did egg donation and then that didn't work either. Oh my God. So it was a lot, it was attritional and it was over a 12 year process. Oh my goodness. And I can talk about it now without crying because I am truly at peace with the fact that I won't have a biological child in this lifetime. And it got to the stage for me where I did feel like, why am I pushing against this unforgiving obstacle so much when actually I'm so grateful for the relationship.

have and I'm surrounded by children in other ways and I'm lucky that I have a fulfilling career. And so for me, I decided to let it go. And that was two years ago. And that takes immense amount of strength. I mean, I, kudos to you because I think that to come to terms with something like that is so gut-wrenching. Yeah. I mean, it was hard. Yeah. I had an amazing psychic reading that really held. I'll tell you about that later. So psychics. They know what to do what to say at the right time. The good ones are great. The good ones are great. Wow. So you did five rounds. Yeah. And then you got pregnant on your fifth or on the six. So I did five rounds. And then I did a, I'd never had a transfer before because we didn't have the viable embryos.

So round five, I think I had the viable embryos at that point. I did a transfer. And I begged my doctor to put two in. Because it wasn't because I wanted twins and the cute twin thing. Like I was just like, if this doesn't work, I need a backup. I need insurance in there. So I signed a waiver. He was like, this is not great. You know, we don't recommend you do two at one time. But I signed a waiver. And of course, those two little sucker stuck. And I was like, oh, crap. Well, here we go. We're having two at one time. But the feeling of, you know, after like this whole debacle, the feeling of getting pregnant at that time was just like, wow. Like I was just so grateful. It was so excited. to tell everyone. And then I had them and I was like, oh, crap. Like, they're there to stay.

Like, now I have to really, I sound so, I mean, don't call me out on this. But like, you know, it's like the excitement, it's like almost like, you know, when you're, you would get engaged and then you're like, you're so excited for the wedding. And then the wedding happens. And then you're like, okay, what now? Yes. That's how I was like, what's the next thing to focus on? What's the next thing? So I was like pregnant. I was so excited. And we told everyone. And like, there was all of this hype and then I had the kids and I was just like oh crap like it was almost like this moment where I was like well this is it I have kids now well I also imagine that when you go through lots of fertility treatment and then you end up having the baby is there part of you that

feels like I am not allowed to complain because I wanted this so much and I put us through so much and I think sometimes women struggle with that because obviously you are allowed to say it's really tough. Yeah. But there's probably part of you that feels like you're letting yourself down by admitting that. Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because Povett's like, they are really expensive kids. Like, you better, you know, appreciate them in every which way. And I do, of course. But again, going back to are you maternal? I don't think I am still, which is such a weird thing to say, but I just am not. I love hearing you say that. That's going to help so many women who are listening to this. Honestly, and I think it's probably a far more common feeling

than people imagine. Because what you're saying is, I don't think I'm maternal. It's not saying that you don't love your kids, or that you're not an amazing mother, which you are. So are you, what do you mean when you say you're not maternal? In that, I had my kids and I'm so grateful and they're amazing. But I don't want my life to revolve around the fact that I am a mother. I think it's one element of my life. And I hope that I'm doing a good job and, you know, I wake up every day and, you know, I hope that I'm raising them in the best way I can. But I have so many other ambitions that take priority, not priority, but like take, you know,

are the same level of priority, I would say. And coming to terms with that was really tough because I think, again, because you're a mom, you're supposed to feel like that's kind of like the thing that you focus on. Pivot being the person he is has really almost taken that. role of being the mother and the father while I'm doing this, while I'm pursuing what I'm doing. And I'm so grateful for him because he's just, yeah, he wakes up in the morning, he gives him breakfast, he'll take them to school, I'll do work stuff. Like, it's like he really is taking on this incredible role of, you know, the main sort of like parent in a way. Do you feel guilt?

No. I don't. That's so great. I don't. Because I think I think I give them enough. But I also don't want to shrivel up and die and not pursue what I set out to pursue. Yeah. You said this amazing thing. I just want to find the quote because it's so funny and apt. It was about how having twins, okay, the way I like to describe it, you said, is you buy tickets to a rave and you want to go to the rave, but then when you're at the rave, you just can't leave. You're constantly dancing to the music and it's very intense. How good is that quote? So good. By the way, I love a good rave. Yeah. How old are the twins now?

Three and a half. And how is it? How are you doing? So hard. Oh, it's so hard. Like, now they're, like, mimicking. They're, like, mocking me. Like, they repeat what I say in my, like, accent.

And I'm just like, oh, my God, they're like little monsters. I don't have family in New York. And so I can't, you know, I think a lot of people are able to give their kids to the parents for a weekend or to, you know, we don't have that structure here. So it's double as hard. Yeah, I can sense that. Yeah. You're doing a great job. You and Pavit are both doing a great job.

Thank you. Now, for anyone who hasn't seen your first series, The Real Housewives of New York, you opened up, again, in a very courageous way, about the knock-on effect that fertility treatment had on how you felt about your body and your intimacy with Pavit. Yeah. Would you mind just speaking a bit about that for anyone who hasn't seen that?

Because I think it's so powerful. Yeah. No, thank you for asking that. IVF is so isolating. I think that a lot of women who haven't been through it can't really understand what it means to go through, you know, months of drugs and hormones. And it just very much, like, sucked my sort of identity in a way. As I was going through it, you know, you feel bloated and you feel, you just don't feel like yourself. Imagine going through your period every month, for instance. And it's just like this constant. You just feel gross, right? That's how I felt for three years almost. For me, trying to get pregnant, it took a different path because I was almost putting all this pressure on him, and it became work.

When you're trying to get pregnant, you know, it's like you have a schedule, and I was like, let's go. And he, I don't think he enjoyed it either. So I think the intimacy really took a deep dive during those years of trying to get pregnant. And then when I have the kids, I also, you know, I had a caesarian. I just needed to focus on me and not my marriage in a way. I know that sounds selfish.

No, it doesn't. It sounds wise, actually. You have to do that. You have to put your own oxygen mask on before you can help the others. A little bit. I really wanted to snap back and do all the things, but it just took a long time for me. I did have PTSD, to be honest, because I think I equated having sex to that, you know, the motions of trying to get pregnant. And it did take a bit of a toll on our relationship. He was, again, part of it is like, can I do no wrong. He's like so patient and really didn't pressure any of it. But, you know, I knew that it was something I needed to step back into.

Yeah. It's so interesting you say that. I, at the end of, these 12 years of fertility treatment. It was only once I was out of it that I understood the impact it had had on my body and how I felt about it. And I have recently got into weight training and it's been transformational for me for that reason because I feel I'm back in my body and I feel really strong and good about it. And that was denied me and I'm sure you for all of those years that you were going through it. Because you can't control how you look and you're not even focused on that. Do you know what I mean? You can't focus on feeling good because you're just pumping yourself with just in and it's almost like desperation. Yeah. Like I felt desperate and I felt like

I had to combat this thing. And you put everything sort of aside. Like I said, my career, how I looked, how I felt about myself, my relationship, all those things, took sort of a backseat. I'm so glad you're on the other side of it, although I know that there is a third embryo on ice, a girl, that you are very keen to have and that Pavitt is more cautious about. Yeah, financially, I think it's like traumatizing for him. I would love to have a third child, but, you know, I want to make sure that he's on the same page. Yeah. And I think a lot of this season that you just saw was us trying to sort of like come to terms

with what that looks like. And to be honest, I don't think he wants another kid. Like, I think for him, I'm going to say this. Like, I think a lot of the focus that was on me and my trauma, I didn't talk about Pavit and what he went through. And I think a lot of people sort of dismissed the husband in these scenarios. He went through a lot. Yeah.

I mean, he was dealing with my, like, nonsense. He was paying for all the treatments. And, you know, I know that that was like hurting him. And I'm sure it was really. tough on him, but I never asked, you know, we never talked about it because I was so selfish in that moment. I was like, I can't get pregnant, you know, and I'm sure that it was very hard for her. I love how you go to bat for Pavit and like how you do for each other, actually. I think you've got a really beautiful relationship. And I know it's come under some scrutiny, but I just

see two people who really love each other and who are interdependent rather than co-dependent, which I love. Yeah. Thank you for saying that because it's like, I feel like I'm constantly you're having to justify our relationship. And I'm really done with that. Like, I'm not stepping up and going to, you know, justify anything that I don't feel like I need to anymore. Preach. And your second failure is your failure to conceive your kids naturally.

So you had IVF and also your failure to have a natural birth. Yeah. And the reason I'm so pleased that you're talking about this is because I, I also went through several rounds of fertility treatment, had recurrent miscarriages and don't have children. And I'm at peace with that now. It's been a long journey, but I'm at peace with it. And that's why I'm really grateful to have this conversation with you that you still feel this failure, even though you have your daughters. So please tell me about your journey. First of all, sorry. Thank you. Because it's so harrowing doing it.

it and then like no and it's always in the background no one really knows it's happening yeah and it's a quite a lonely thing i think to do even if you've got a partner you're still alone in it because it's all on you isn't it very very isolating so what happened with me was i always thought or felt that quite fertile and i had had a situation when i was very young where i sort of looked at penis and became pregnant. So I just thought I was like, oh, on high alert my whole life about not conceiving after that. And then we had some issues. We knew quite quick, or I knew quite quickly there was problems because I'm a bit witchy anyway and I just thought there was something. And then found out that what actually happened was the beginning of our fertility treatment. It was because it

was on his side that there was fertility problems. But thanks to modern science, and the patriarchy, it still falls on the woman. No funding research has been done to allow the man who's got fertility problems to take any sort of physical responsibility for that. It's the same process as if it was my issue. It began like that and then I then had an ectopic pregnancy with the first one. I'm sorry. one and then so then you like then my fertility starts going because I've had one tube

damaged so then it's like every other month and then anyway so the second time did work so I was lucky because I actually had two viable pregnancies even though one was pectopic quite quickly and then the birth was really difficult it was like actually unbearable and the kind of long version is in my book, but it started off with proms, which is called premature rupture of membranes where you're sort of in labour, and that was only six months pregnant, I think. That's so scary. Yeah, and so I was leaking, and they were like, you're going to have to induce, we're

going to have a premature baby, and I just kind of like was really defiant that I didn't want to do that, and I basically had bed rest and I was just drinking four litres of water a day and I kept her in for a month just laying down to kind of replenish the lost waters and then eventually the birth itself was went terribly wrong and lots of things like we all have this idea that we're going to have this natural birth and it's all going to be perfect and I'm Mother Nature and like even I've written about this in my book they tell you that you put the baby on you and it finds its way to the breast absolute nonsense I don't know who came up with that but it's rubbish it doesn't they just lay there looking at you

crying. And then it all just went a bit wrong. And after 21 hours of labour and like a lot of kind of stuff and no sleep for a week, I had seven hours sleep in seven days. I had an emergency cesarean, which also caused me later on fertility problems as well. And then a bit of postpartum psychosis because of lack of sleep. So I like was hallucinating. It was all just awful. That's so traumatic. I was probably depressed for a couple of years without realising because the weird thing about depression is

that I didn't realise was that you don't or any mental illness is when it's legitimate mental illness, you're very unaware of the fact you've got it and it's only when it passes that I realise that I had been mentally unwell and so I think that took its toll on

my relationship which this album's about and then like later you know I wanted a second child and then I had three failed transfers, like one more red collection, three failed transfers and then the fourth one worked and then I was just so kind of headstrong about it in a way how like a woman doing IVF becomes almost like in this trance-like state of like that's what I want and a lot of stuff falls by the wayside like your emotional life, your relationship because you're just so, like, focused on this thing in quite an obsessive way.

You don't even, like, consider what might be lost or a woman's identity becoming a mother or anything. You're just about having these babies anyway. Eventually, I've been very fortunate and grateful that I've, I had the second one. But even then, it's only recently, because that child's now too. And she, I didn't realize that I'd been quite depressed even after that and actually wonder, I always think, Like, would my relationship have broken down if I'd have medicated? Like, this stuff doesn't get talked about enough. I feel like maybe it was all because of it.

You said that you're a bit witchy. I imagine you believe in some sort of universal power. Do you think it had to be this way in that respect? Like, how do you feel now being a mother, given everything that you went through and what you had to deal with and the pain you had to suffer along the way and what was lost, as well as the enormous fortune that you have these two beautiful daughters. But how does that feel? I just wonder whether it's a mindset.

Like I see people who have careers and lives where they want stuff and it sort of just happens. My manager, who's been my manager since the beginning of my career, called. And he was like, yeah, but it wouldn't be you if it was easy, would it? And he said that. And I was like, oh my God, you're right, actually. Like, it's always, whatever's happened, it's been difficult. And I think that goes for a lot of people. But sometimes from the outside, you look at the world and you think,

oh, like, I know people who said, oh, we're going to start trying for a baby. And three weeks later, they're pregnant. Or people who sit in interviews in the music business and say, yeah, we just wrote this song in 10 minutes and it's a global smash. You're just like, ah. How does that happen to you? But you know what, though?

The beauty for you, for Paloma Faith and for the rest of us, is in those difficulties because what you're doing every single time you're surmounting a challenge is you're becoming wiser and stronger. Yeah, and also, like, those cases are usually, in reality, a bit of a minority. Like, I'm sure you know from your podcast that most successful people have had way more failures. and they've had successes and people only ever focus on their successes. They never focus on the million times that they

failed before that. Can we just clip that? Have that as the social media clip, the official blurb. Precisely that. But I just want to return to the fact that you've chosen this as one of your failures. I can relate to it, but I think some people

will be listening and thinking, but it's not your failure if you didn't manage to conceive. No, you're right. It's to do with social. pressure, isn't it? It's to do with how we're raising our goals, how we're raising women from childhood as like, this is one of your purposes in life, is you were born to do this and you were born to further the human race and no pressure.

But now, because of feminism, and this is one of my things, is like, that it's abandoned us, it's like, but you also need to like have your independence, you need to have your career and you know we've all arrived at this point in history where we're like we're trying to get my career going and then it means that we're having children later and then we're not really being able to kind of foresee these issues early enough to be able to get time runs away from us doesn't it it's like now I'm 42 and I think oh I'd love another child but I've kind of thought and I probably won't be able to now not with all and my mum's always like your body wouldn't cope with him.

But I think, yeah, it's exactly that. It's to do with like this idea that we are groomed to think that's our job and that that's our kind of, that's the most fulfilling thing you can do as a woman. That's not true. Even when you've got kids, you're made to feel a bit guilty if you don't think that your kids are the most fulfilling thing in your life. I do get a lot of fulfillment from other parts of life. It doesn't mean that I don't love my children or I'm neglect.

them. I remember saying something to my mum even about sacrifice when it comes to parenthood, like all the sacrifices you make for yourself. Well, I wouldn't look it as a sacrifice. Having a child is not a sacrifice. And it's like you're not even allowed to think that you might go, well, sometimes I do quite miss spontaneity. Sorry to admit, but I do sort of miss being able to go, right, I'm getting on a plane tomorrow and I'm going to go and just be at this thing that might help my career or whatever motivates you or just see this natural phenomena or whatever it is. Go see a volcano.

Yeah, exactly. And we're allowed to be many different things that are sometimes complementary and sometimes contradictory. And the patriarchy does all genders of disservice. It traps us all. And he alluded to this, but that idea that the medical establishment

has not funded a lot of research into how to make things easier for women in many respects. And certainly my experience, going through IVF, and I know it's changed a lot now, but I was made to feel like a failure because of the language used by medical professionals. Geriatric mother, I get that. Or like, this transfers failed.

Exactly. You fail to produce enough eggs. Your cervix is incompetent. Yeah, it's not an, I heard one that was something like, it's not a... Viable? Yeah, no, but something about the environment of my... In hospitable. Yeah, an inhospitable environment.

Thanks. I think it's very hospitable, I felt. I'm sure you have a lovely, warm, generous womb. And I would love to book a room there. High thread count sheets. Can you just tell us what your daughters are like as characters? Yin and yang. So the older one is super bright on a sort of emotional...

comedic level because she's only seven people don't understand that she's just got really deadpan humour and quite often think she's just like a bit of a rude child but she's not because she sort of winks at me afterwards she's just so hilarious and it's like a bit of an old soul and she's like this dark person so there's a great anecdote that i've got from recently we went on holiday the um the way she's very like feminist the the the way that way to like pulled out a chair and went this few princess and she went I am not a princess I'm the queen of darkness so she's kind of like a bit of a hero and then the other one is like where this one who's like kind of intelligent stimulating lateral thinking and a bit cynical

the flip sometimes she's lacking a bit on the kind of like cuddles and the cuteness and so the little one's got all of that in bucket loads. And everywhere we go, people are just like, oh my God, I've never met a more cute child. Like, she's just like this sort of, she's like a Japanese cartoon character. She's just so cute, big eyes, smiles at everyone and makes everyone feel special. And I know what the future looks like. The future looks like the older one is going to look after me in old age and like despise me and say I was irritating and annoying, but be there every day like wiping my bum when I'm in continent and then the young one's going to be somewhere sorry mother I'm just in Thailand they need me here everyone loves me here

just like giving her love and I'll be like oh she called to the older one and be like she gets all the crick I'm so uplifted because she rang me once in six months and the older one will be like I hate you mother I'm here every day oh that's genius That's it. That's the future. Please do follow how to fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.