How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Rosamund Pike - ‘Failure Is Pretending To Be Someone You’re Not’

Starting point is 00:00:00 And the film was an absolute bomb. I mean, I probably could have ended my career. I mean, it was just probably one of the worst films ever made. We had a huge love affair. We were very, very in love. We had massive, masses of adventures. We were very wild. And then it all fell apart.

Starting point is 00:00:17 And when it falls apart, everybody thinks, oh my God, you know, what is it? It must be an affair, polygamy, you know, drug scandal. But then you realise that actually you're free in a way, because you think there are so many other templates of what life can look like for a woman. I'm the centre of attention so often. I don't need a wedding. I'm quite a coward, really, and I like to play brave people because I like to pretend that I'm not. Hello and welcome to How to Fail.

Starting point is 00:00:47 This is the podcast that believes every single failure can teach you something meaningful in the fullness of time. Before we get on to this conversation, please do remember to like, follow and subscribe said that you never miss a single episode. Masterclass is the streaming platform that makes it possible for anyone to watch or listen to hundreds of video lessons taught by more than 200 of the world's best. Whether it be in business and leadership, photography, cooking, acting, music, sports and more, Masterclass, delivers a world-class online learning experience. The classes that excited me the most were the ones on writing.

Starting point is 00:01:29 So there's a session with actual Malcolm Gladwell, author of Blink and The Tipping Point. He's done 24 classes on how to find, research and write stories that capture big ideas. And it's totally inspiring. I love that you can turn your commute or workout into a classroom with audio mode. So you can listen to a master class lesson anytime, anywhere. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at Marlux. Masterclass.com slash fail. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash fail. Masterclass.com slash fail. One plus one equals more of the greatest stories. Hulu on Disney Plus. Stories about

Starting point is 00:02:16 survivors. The most dangerous planet. Family. Retribution. Murder. Prophecy. Beer and propane. Molly Miller. Black panthers. The ultimate soldier. Chicago, all right? The best of the best stories now with even more from Hulu. Amazing. Have it all with 3-1 Disney Plus. My guest today is known for her screen and stage portrayals of morally complex characters, the kind who are intelligent, watchful, and often ever so slightly unexpected.

Starting point is 00:02:54 In her own life, Rosamond Pike embodies a similar sense of delightful ambiguity. An English Rose who speaks Mandarin, a stage school reject who became an Oxford graduate, an actor whose long-term partner is a mathematician, whose sons are called Solo and Atom, and who is creative director for a consciousness-altering meditation app called Luminate. Such eclecticism is a legacy, perhaps, of a bohemian childhood. Pike's parents were classical singers who took her backstage from a young age. At 11, she won a scholarship to a Bristol boarding school. By 16, she was at the National Youth Theatre, where she busked playing the cello to afford the fees.

Starting point is 00:03:40 Later, she took a year off from reading English at Oxford University to pursue acting, and on graduation landed apart as Bond Girl Miranda Frost in Die Another Day. From there, her career went stratospheric. Roals followed in 2005's Pride and Prejudice, Jack Reacher, a private, at war and Saltburn. She was Oscar nominated for her star turn in Gone Girl and won a Golden Globe for her leading role in 2020s I Care a Lot. In 2025, she returned to the stage for the first time in 15 years in the National Theatre's Inter alia. Critics described her performance in the searing legal drama as electric and the play transfers to London's Wyndham Theatre this month.

Starting point is 00:04:27 A self-confessed perfectionist, Pike says from a young age that she was forensically interested in why I believed something and why I didn't, even when I sat in rehearsals with my mother. She says I gave her a note, age seven. I told her that she broke character just before she started her aria. Rosamund Pike, welcome to How to Fail. Oh gosh, thank you very much, Elizabeth. Thank you. Did you see I had to cover my ears when you read it? I used studiously never read reviews. I have this superstition that if I hear anything good, I won't be able to repeat it. Yes. Or it will disappear. If I'm told something good, I won't be able to do it. Have you always been someone who didn't read reviews or is that something you learn on the job?

Starting point is 00:05:17 Well, I haven't read them for probably 25 years. The very first big BBC drama I did was Love and Nicole climate, you know, the last time it came around. And, you know, it was a big deal. It was Nancy Mitford. It was directed by Tom Hooper. You know, we had this wonderful cast of Celia Imrey and Alan Bates and Sheila Gish and Anthony Andrews. And it was all these sort of legends were surrounding us and the three girls, who was Elizabeth Dermott, Megan Dodds and myself. And on the Sunday morning of the first episode, I was in Sainsbury's. And I thought, you know what, I am going to buy the papers. I am going to, you know, it's my first thing. I'm going to, I'm going to see what people are saying. And I bought the top one was the Sunday Times. And I opened the culture, which then, as you know, the great late, great A.A. Gill was the TV reviewer. Yes. And there was the most monstrous caricature of me and Elizabeth and Megan. And the headline was who let the dogs out. And I was in the queue, you know, about to reach the checkout, just frozen with my papers. and whatever else I was buying.

Starting point is 00:06:27 And from that point on, I have never opened a paper. I've never read a review. And I'm sure that what A.A. Gill wrote about us was very funny as everything he wrote. And it was probably fair. And it might have also been, it might have been complimentary, but the headline certainly wasn't. No. You don't need to take that in.

Starting point is 00:06:48 No. And then I thought, well, you know, if I don't want to read nasty stuff, it's not fair that I get to read good stuff. So therefore I just don't read anything. I'm the same, not that I am an Oscar-nominated actress with the global following, but I write books. And I, a few years ago, made the decision not to read any reviews. And I'm quite proud of myself, because it used to feel like picking a scab. If I'd known of the existence of a negative review, I would seek it out and read it, and it would sort of validate every bad thought I ever had about myself. Now I know of the existence, and I refuse to read them. And it's a way of sort of taking back a bit of power.

Starting point is 00:07:24 It probably is that. See, I knew this is going to be therapy. It's all about control. My partner reads his eBay feedback. That's where I send him if he's ever in a kind of morose state of mind because he was once called the nicest man on eBay. So I sent him in the direction of his eBay feedback where he gets a lot of positive affirmation.

Starting point is 00:07:45 That's so sweet. What's he selling on eBay? Just household items. I don't know. It was a kind of, I think he was a great believer in, no, he's a great believer in the principles of eBay. And somebody came to him and offered him a kind of buy it now at a sort of above the, you know, offer. And he said, no, you know, due to the principles of eBay, I'm going to stick to the auction, but wish you best of luck.

Starting point is 00:08:06 And the man ended up getting it, but at a much lower price than he'd offered in the buy it now. And I think, you know, probably learnt something and also thought, God, this man is really decent. Oh, well, we're going to come on to your partner because it pertains to one of your failures. I don't really talk about it. I don't know why I've offered it out. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. That's just because I called it therapy and we're sitting in a pink boove. Oh yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:30 It's like a womb. A womb of confession. A womb of failure. I wanted to end on that quote from your mother saying that you gave her a note age seven. Yes. I wonder if history records whether she responded to that note. Did she agree with it? She absolutely did agree with it.

Starting point is 00:08:45 Yeah. And I think that was one thing about being an only child in a creative family is that we really spoke very frankly and openly. and took sort of ideas from one another. And it didn't, I think, you know, I mean, I think if she hadn't agreed with it, she would have said so. But in that instance, she thought, my God, she's right. You know, because you do as a singer,

Starting point is 00:09:05 there's a technical, you know, there's technical preparation, obviously, to singing a big aria. And sometimes that can take for a flash away from the character. You know, and then I think when you kind of carry on in the business, and it's the same with what I do. You know, there are some things, some things that require a sort of technical virtuosic sort of ability,

Starting point is 00:09:29 but you have to sort of hide that and still be real, so you're just living it. Well, with inter alia, it's a play without an interval, which as an audience member I absolutely love, one hour, 40 minutes, straight through. As the star of that play, do you prefer an interval? Or is it... Well, I mean, that play really warrants not having one.

Starting point is 00:09:51 it mirrors a woman's life. It mirrors the fact that a woman, a modern, successful working woman with a family and friends and a relationship to keep up and a child, you know, doesn't get a break. And I think this play has to not have a break because Jessica Parks, who's a Crown Court judge, she doesn't get a break. And every time she thinks she's in control of the narrative,

Starting point is 00:10:15 some other, something else crashes into her world. And that's why so many women watched it, the first time around at the national and thought, oh my God, I've just seen myself represented on stage. That is my life. And actually some women came with their teenage sons. And one of my friends said her son turned to her at the end of the play and said, oh, mum, I think that's you, isn't it? And she was like, yeah. He was like, thank you. Which was pretty major. Have your son seen it? No, they're just, they were just under the threshold. We put a 14 year old, 14 age limit on it because, you know, it does deal with sex crimes and sexual assault as themes are in

Starting point is 00:10:58 the play and, you know, I'm a judge sentencing some pretty gory cases and a lot of its spoken word, but it still, we had to pick an age and 14 was the threshold. Is it true that David Fincher, when you were starring in Gone Girl, once gave you a note from having filmed the back of your head and said you're not impressed enough from looking at the back of your hand. Oh gosh. No, I think that might have been Tom Hooper in love and a cold climate. I know that Fincher did say to you to think about smoothness. Yes, he always talked about being smooth. Huh. You know, he always wanted me to relax and never show anything in my forehead, which is always very hard for me because I won't have Botox, but I move my head a lot. And he never wanted to see a

Starting point is 00:11:43 single thing on the forehead. Before we get onto your failures, I have to talk to you about Luminate. Luminate, good. Have you tried it? It's amazing. Yes. Have you got a Nova? Yes. You have. Great. Great. It's incredible. And I promise you, I'm not just saying this. No, I believe you. I've always struggled with meditation. I've always known that I should do it and never been able to really. And Luminate, for the listeners and viewers, it's, you explain it, Rosamond. You'll do a better job. It looks like a sleep mask. And Luminate uses the process of sensory entrainment. So we use a pulsing, light source, which is now encoded into the mask, and the mask will shade your eyes completely, so you're in a state of darkness, and then the light will begin, and it will pulse sort of around your forehead area, I suppose, where your third eye would be between your eyebrows. And it's an input that your brain is registering, but it doesn't compute like a visual or like words. So the frontal mode network of your brain, which is the kind of busy, what I must do, today, the list making, organizing part of your brain

Starting point is 00:12:51 quietens down because it's not an input that that part of your brain deals with and other synapses fire and it puts you very quickly and easily in touch with your subconscious and what you see in front of your closed eyes or your mind's eye or your subconscious, whatever you want to see are patterns, shapes and colors. Now I don't know what you see

Starting point is 00:13:10 but I know what I see. Sometimes it's geometric sometimes it's just a bathing kind of spiritual sort of I'm flying towards a light. Sometimes it's swirling, more kind of like marbling. Sometimes it's jagged. Recently, I saw sort of sparkles, which I'd never seen before. And it's basically changing, I suppose, your mental state, your worried, anxious mental state into colour, shape and pattern. And to me, it's like a total brain reset. It's like clears the cash, you know, it clears the... Totally.

Starting point is 00:13:45 And you're the creative director and some of the meditations, you'll hear your Rosamond's voice. And you have a very beautiful voice for that purpose. But I just want to thank you for it because I've used it every day since I got sent it. Oh, wow. And exactly in that way, it really revitalises, refreshes, makes me feel so much more in touch with creativity and calm. That's such a nice compliment. Thank you. No easy segue to your failures, but that's where we're going next. Your first failure is your failure to learn Chinese, which will come as a surprise to many because many of us thought you could speak Mandarin.

Starting point is 00:14:27 Well, I have a family who speak Chinese. My partner is very interested in China and has been for a long time. I'm fascinated by China. I have two children who speak Chinese, a large part of their early childhood. The whole house would be speaking Chinese, and I still can't speak it. And in lockdown, I started to try and have lessons.

Starting point is 00:14:49 And then when I came out of lockdown, it got so busy. And now I have all this credit for being an actress who, you know, has a high profile and is very interested in China. And I'm credited with being able to speak Chinese. And I can't. And the only thing I can say is something I said on the Graham Norton show, which is a sort of thing they call a Chung-U, which is a sort of idiom a saying. And it's a very good saying. It's sort of like about not wasting your time.

Starting point is 00:15:20 And it's sort of, you know, don't bother doing like that. It's like taking your trousers off to fart. Talko's a fang pi. And I said this. And this clip from the Graham Norton Show in lockdown went viral all over China. And I am now known in China as the fart lady. I am the fart lady. People, you know, will come up to my face and say, oh, you're the fart lady.

Starting point is 00:15:41 But, you know, when you've had, I've had all the fart lady. I've had all the opportunity to learn this language. You know, it's been going on around me. Netflix has been on in Chinese. Pepper Pig has been on in Chinese. And I still can't bloody speak it. Can you say anything more than the far lady idiom? I mean, yes, I can say a few things. I know a few animals. Okay. I know some, I know some, you know what they say in Chinese, if you're smiling for a photograph, you say, cheatser, which is obejin. Oh my goodness. That is a great fact. Obijin. Cheeds. But this year I thought I'm going to I'm going to actually set my mind to it because I think it's just embarrassing that I get a lot of credit for being able to do it and and I can't actually do it.

Starting point is 00:16:23 I mean it is infamously meant to be probably the hardest language to learn. Well I said I'm interested in the brain and it definitely works on a different part of your brain because you know you have these it's a tonal language right. So you know the word if you have ma right you can have ma meaning. horse. No, I probably got it wrong as well. But you can have ma, ma, ma, ma, ma. And those are four completely different words.

Starting point is 00:16:53 So, you know, Woe-Betai that you get the wrong. There was an NT live, I think, or a play of something went out in China, not of our play. But it was something like a Greek tragedy, something like Electra or something, you know, with matricide in or something really serious. and instead of the word for mother, which is ma, they used the word ma, which is horse. So at the end, instead of my mother, my mother, it was my horse, my horse. And I have got these two sons who are this bridge into a world that I could never be, I could never experience China as I can now through them. But the fact that I get such a lot of credit for it and I can't actually do it,

Starting point is 00:17:35 Have you ever had that where you get a lot of credit for something that you actually sort of think, I don't think I get the credit in the first place? I used to be able to speak Russian and I'm very sad that I've lost all facilities to do that because I didn't practice when I came back. So now I've got one. Yeah, so you feel a sort of shame. There's a kind of shame involved, isn't it? Yes.

Starting point is 00:17:56 And I can still say, do you speak Russian and I can still say the word for monuments, which is one of my favorite words. Dostoprimichatinisti Dotschipinastinishish Yes Say it again Dostar Primichatinisti That's the bit Yeah

Starting point is 00:18:16 Doche preminiast It's either heritage or monuments Anyway that can be your next task Okay no I'm not going to learn Russian But I'll come back with some But I mean there are lovely things in Chinese It's probably like in Russian There are meanings

Starting point is 00:18:29 Like a laptop is a Dien Nau which is an electric brain and there are words like that in Chinese which I just might have got the tones

Starting point is 00:18:38 wrong so if a Chinese listener I apologise it could easily be a totally different word but for English it's fine when was the first

Starting point is 00:18:47 time you can remember being fascinated with language oh I mean at first it was accents I was fascinated by accents because I grew up

Starting point is 00:18:54 in Ells Court and there was you know just so many accents it was it was very Australian at that time there were

Starting point is 00:19:01 was much rougher than it is now. There were just so many accents. It was a big homeless problem, so we'd often in our block of flats, we'd often come out and there'd be people sleeping rough in the corridors. And I just was exposed to so many different sounds. And I loved that. And I always wanted to try and work out.

Starting point is 00:19:23 Because it felt like character to me. Accent was always character. Well, I heard my parents singing in other languages, of course. Yes. There's a lot of operas in Italian or a lot of songs in French. Hey, Sal. Hank, what's going on? We haven't worked a case in years.

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Starting point is 00:20:04 on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. You know those times late at night when you're scrolling and you see something online that you've been looking for and you just need to buy it right there and then. You click on the link, you add it to cart before hitting checkout, but then that sinking feeding, as you realize you don't have your card anywhere here and don't want to get out of bed. But that's when you see it. That purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out, as simple as a quick tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform

Starting point is 00:20:40 behind millions of businesses around the world and has so many benefits. You can set up your own design studio, use Shopify's AI tools that write product descriptions, and even enhance your product photography. You can get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you.

Starting point is 00:20:57 Easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. See fewer kinds of. hearts go abandoned and more sales. Go sign up for your one pound per month trial today at Shopify.com.uk.uk slash fail. Go to shopify.com.com.uk slash fail. I'm Craig Melvin. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. I've always been a glass half full kind of guy. And now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too. Some really fascinating folks who share their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges, their stories. They're

Starting point is 00:21:34 are funny and my candid. So I hope you'll join me each week and who knows, you might just come away with your own glass-ass-a-full. Search Glass-Hanful with Craig Nelson from today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Alongside the shame that you have this label that you don't feel you're living up to, is there also a sense that because you're a high achiever, that you feel you're letting yourself down by not being perfect at something that's incredibly difficult? Oh, well, I'm so far from being perfect.

Starting point is 00:22:09 That might come later if I sort of got to a level of sort of mediocrity. At the moment, I'm at sort of base at a sort of such a level of no. I don't think I'm letting myself down yet. I suppose if I now try and say, okay, I'm going to commit to having five hours of Chinese a week and then we meet again in the year's time and all I can still say is talk was a fang pi. Don't take your trousers off to fart. might feel like a failure. Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely my hardest critic. I think most women are. I can be so hard on myself for quite small things. And then I can let myself off the hook for

Starting point is 00:22:48 something much bigger. It's a weird thing. I don't know if anyone listening relates to that. So, you know, I can, you know, recently, I was meeting the prime minister in China, which was sort of an unexpected part of my visit there. Yeah. And, you know, I've thought really carefully about what I'm going to wear and I wear this beautiful Huishang Zhang suit. A Chinese designer lives in London. I thought this is perfect.

Starting point is 00:23:14 And it's a lovely mint green suit. And, you know, I'm there early. I'm on time. Lateness is something I'm not very good at. One of my failings, I should say, one of my failures. And I'm there promptly on time, you know, with enough time to be very relaxed. You know, the Prime Minister is entering the building. and he's coming up the stairs

Starting point is 00:23:32 he's with his entourage in a minute we're going to transfer to the other room and I'm feeling I thought I've done this I've jet lagged but I'm here I'm in my nice suit

Starting point is 00:23:39 and I look down and on my right thigh is a great big smear of chocolate and chocolate is one of my weaknesses right chocolate is I have a sort of I might almost say an addiction to dark chocolate

Starting point is 00:23:52 anyway it's obviously been I mean it sounds so mucky doesn't it sounds so mucky and there's this smear of chocolate I mean, I am mortified. I'm like, oh my God, I'm letting down. I'm letting Britain down. I'm letting down the entire country.

Starting point is 00:24:08 I'm letting the designer down. I'm letting everyone down. People were trying to say, you know, no one's going to see it. It's tiny. To me, it was sort of huge and increasing grammatically every second. You know, try to wipe it off. It just makes it worse. So I think, okay, well, I'm going to turn the, maybe I can turn the skirt around.

Starting point is 00:24:24 And then I'm like, well, then I'm going to let the designer down because it's obviously like she doesn't know where a zip goes. You know, the zip is obviously at the back or the side, not at the front. And a brown's seen at the back when it's the lady with a fart lady. I mean, fart lady having a chocolate smear on her ass is not great. But still, it's all for the photograph, isn't it? So when you see those photographs, you can imagine a small smear of brown on my right buttock. Wait, so you're not good at lessing your, is that a small thing in your.

Starting point is 00:24:48 So, no, that would be, no, I would be quite, I would find that, I found that quite difficult. But then something else like there was a sort of moment where I was presenting at the back. with Dominic Cooper. And I was all dressed up and we were at the BAFTAs and Dominic and I had tried to sort of rewrite something which is the absolute you mustn't. Unless you're a comedian, unless you're a professional comedian, don't try and rewrite it. It will sound trite. All the writing is kind of boring, but just do it.

Starting point is 00:25:17 Just do the thing that it says. Don't try and be clever. Don't try and be funny unless you are funny, right? We tried to rewrite it. It went very wrong. I was so embarrassed by how. badly it had gone wrong that I just tried to get to the end and I ended up opening the envelope before announcing the nominees. Now this is on live television. This is quite a major mistake,

Starting point is 00:25:38 right? Everybody was mortified for me, totally mortified. Tom Ford was the next presenter who is the most immaculate gentleman you could possibly meet. I mean, there is no one more perfect than Tom Ford. He's just, there's never a hair out of place. He does everything with such elegance. He looked at me with so much pity. coming off. I mean, so much pity, benevolent pity, which is the worst, right? The worst. And I thought, I don't care. Why don't I care? I don't care. I've just, I've embarrassed myself massively. And I don't really know to this day. I think there was a huge relief in that this is not something I feel I'm good at. I'm not good at being myself on stage. I'm meant to be another

Starting point is 00:26:24 character, this might mean I never have to do this again. Gosh, that's enlightened. Do you watch back your film and TV work? Sometimes, yeah. I mean, watch back years later? Yes. No. But at the time, a data acquisition.

Starting point is 00:26:41 Sometimes I do. Sometimes I sort of somebody will say, oh, I saw die another day and I think, oh my God, I must have been awful. I have a quick look on YouTube and have a look at a scene and think, God, I do that better now. But I can sort of let it go. Sometimes I do do that. because I think in my head it's probably much worse than it was.

Starting point is 00:26:59 I was just so inexperienced and it was such massive exposure. I mean, straight out of university into that. And also so unworldly compared to girls now, I think. You turned up to the audition in one of your mother's taffeta gown. Yes, yes, I did, I did. I thought it was a beautiful evening dress. Yes. And I didn't know that Bond girls sort of wear sort of three pieces of string

Starting point is 00:27:19 or something that kind of looks more like I should be going down that, the bobsled race at the Winter Olympics, you know, more of a, you know, the people who go on the tray in that sort of sleek Lycra onesie. I should have been more like that. I know that I could get derailed here because there are so many of your roles that I want to ask you about. Jane. We can. You can always cut it afterwards. Can I go with Jane in Pride and Prejudice? I thought you did such a phenomenal job there of breathing new life into a character who runs the risk so often of being boring. She's like the boring perfect system. I know people say she's boring. I just think she chooses to see the best in people. And it was a kind of, you know, she's not that she doesn't have Lizzie's opinions. It's just that she finds life more relaxing if she chooses to be optimistic. That's how I saw her. And there's this beautiful scene directed by Joe Wright.

Starting point is 00:28:08 Maybe we'll come on to him in a bit. Where you and Lizzie, Kira, are under the bed sheets. I know it's been copied so many times since then. He always could do intimacy. so well he could capture it on screen and it was I remember when we'd filmed that and him and the DP

Starting point is 00:28:29 Romanosin they'd seen the rushes the next day and they were just they were so in love with those rushes they just said it's just magical but he was always very very good at being and it's what people still talk about you know the little looks and glances the hand squeezes that he's very good at feeling

Starting point is 00:28:46 at transmitting feelings on screen in cinema And the beauty of the mundane, I think, as well. It's just so evident in that film. Jack Reacher, also, you were great. Now, were you pregnant? Pregnant? Yes.

Starting point is 00:29:02 So there's some quite careful camera angles. Oh, my gosh, yeah. And I was, you know, and it's funny because, you know, with, it was funny because I was increasing in size, obviously, during the filming. And the costume department, I realized one day, there was a dress and I said, is this a new dress? And they said, no, no, no, it's not a new dress. I said, I'm sure it is. It's fitting much better. They said, no, no, it's the same one. And I looked at the label and it was still the same size. And then I looked more closely at the

Starting point is 00:29:33 label. And I thought, is that being cut and restitched? And they had. They'd cut it out and restitched it with the same size so that I wouldn't feel bad that I'd gone up a size. Wow. But that is how, you know, people are so trying to placate a woman's eaget. because they think the film industry is so much about, you know, I mustn't get bigger. I mustn't get bigger. But I was pregnant, right? I mean, you want to be getting bigger. That's such a revealing anecdote, isn't it?

Starting point is 00:30:04 Yeah, I think it is. Okay, before we get onto your next lady, Saltburn. I mean, what a joyously hilarious performance. Were you having fun filming it? Oh, I had the best time. I mean, Emerald. Fennell writes the most wonderful dialogue. and it just sort of drips out of her.

Starting point is 00:30:23 She's so good at analyzing herself, actually. She's so good at analyzing, I suppose, the mean, the unsavory, the sort of the risque parts of herself that most of us try and keep hidden. And she just says, well, we all think that really. You know, she sort of says, I mean, you know, I prefer thin people, don't you? I mean, you know, whatever it will come out of her. And you don't know whether she means it, whether she's just trying to shot. whether she's trying to provoke, but all of it is valid because she means that she writes a character like Elspeth who says, you know, I can't stand ugly people. Yes.

Starting point is 00:30:58 There's a confidence to the irreverence. Oh, see, that's such a good way of putting it. Yes, that's exactly what it is. I was like, gosh, I would never be brave enough to make that choice because I'm constantly anxiously questioning. And there's something so aspirational about that confident. Yeah, I mean, you just, yeah, Ellspeth was wonderful. And I love, I mean, it was just so fun for me to sort of play up that part of Englishness, the sort of faux, you know, darling, you know, tell me about your mother. Oh, God, is she drinking.

Starting point is 00:31:34 Oh, you know, and you can just seal the relish of the sort of story later. It was such a specific social commentary, thought one, and it was just, and it was done with such a light touch. And she didn't have to explain it or over-explain it. Everybody got it. Even the way she treats the house with such sort of casual disdain. And you sort of whip past these sort of amazing paintings. And she sort of barely gives them a sort of close-up or a sort of, you know, half a frame on the camera. And that's one of the mystifying things about, you know, having been someone who's sort of tried and sort of got it wrong, has moved, you know, has been in some of those.

Starting point is 00:32:17 You know, when you were at Oxford, I was invited sometimes and would always, I would somehow always be wrong because I made too much for an effort or I'd tried or I wasn't sort of, I was overdressed or I was, I was always slightly wrong. You know, and there it's sort of you can be, you know, squalid as you like, but then you'll wear black tie for dinner. Yes. And you'd just, as someone from the outside, you wouldn't sort of know that. Did you ever feel or do you ever feel cool? Cool, I feel cool all the time. Do you? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:32:52 I love that option. Yeah, I feel cool. What does cool mean to you? Well, I think it means that you can go your own way. I think you can go your own way. You don't give too many fox. You can think originally. I think you've got some attitude.

Starting point is 00:33:11 Yes, I think I do feel cool. God, I love that. Because one of your iconic roles is obviously Amy and Gone Girl, and there's this whole passage in Gone Girl, the novel, and translated brilliantly to the movie adaptation about being the Cool Girl trope. But I love that idea of cool girlness being, embracing your authentic eccentricity in a way. Oh, you mean, not what Amy says. Not what Amy says.

Starting point is 00:33:35 No, no, Amy is such a sort of, you know, she's grown up under the wing of misogyny, you know. So she's cool in the eyes of her. you know, it's like when you've grown up with a sort of sexist father, you end up just becoming a woman who's there to please a man. Luckily, I did not grow up with a sexist father. I think that's one of the hardest things to overcome, actually, as a woman, is sort of freeing yourself from that sexist perspective of yourself. Yes. Yes. Actually, I think cool is about being a part, is being okay with being apart is keeping the sort of, you know, temperature chill when, you know, not having to kind of join in with the latest craze or kind of follow the band and, you know, anticipate a trend,

Starting point is 00:34:22 anticipate something, don't just follow it. You know, I think I, yeah, it's funny. Oh, God, look at all that strong feeling that came out. It's great. I think that's my own brand of it, because I think as a kid, I didn't feel cool in the normal sort of trope of it, you know, I was never had the right clothes. But now I don't sort of think that's actually what it is. I don't think that is actually what cool is. But in terms of how a teenager thinks, I was never, no, I mean, I had like buckle over sandals when everyone else had trainers. I mean, it was like mortifying. But now, I think that was sort of gave me some character. Because, you know, you try going in buckle over start right sandals when everyone's got the latest

Starting point is 00:35:01 train. I get it. You know, or when everyone's having a track suit. and someone's having a bouncy castle party and I hear everyone's wearing tracksuits my mum goes out and buys some banana yellow velour and sows me one which has such a tight funnel neck I can barely get it over my head and as a child I used to get very very rosy cheeks

Starting point is 00:35:22 I mean it was like I was like a sort of little Belicia beacon sticking out of this banana yellow velour you know so that is not not cool and yet it's so funny because recently a picture surfaced of that party. And actually, this bloody track suit that caused me so much mortification was really cool. Now, you look back and you think, my mom actually made me something really original, but it wasn't right. That's so beautiful, that idea of that, that young Rosamond and the picture resurfacing and making pieces of it. When I use Luminate, I get a lot of childhood

Starting point is 00:35:58 self stuff. Do you? You see people. Yes. That's interesting. I usually just see patterns. I know. Now I'm jealous. You're more enlightened. Okay. Your second failure, talking about the roles that you embodied and were such a success in. But your second failure is your failure to be an action star as you put it. Yeah. I mean, it started well with James Bond. It did start well. There was a promising start. You know, I was picked to be in the biggest action franchise of all times. So then when I was making pride and prejudice and I was having great fun in my cornfields in my bonnet, I get a call to. I get a call to. to be in an action franchise. They're making a cinema version, a narrative version of the video game Doom. And I think in my bonnet, in my field of hay bales, yeah, I can do anything. I can jump on this hay bale in my crinolin so I can certainly go and kill some zombies on Mars. And originally it was with Ray Winston that project. And then the whole thing was reimagined.

Starting point is 00:37:01 and he was the sort of leader of this kind of bunch of marines going out to this facility in Mars. And I was a scientist out there. And then for whatever reason, Ray Winston didn't end up doing it. And he was replaced by Dwayne Johnson, The Rock. So suddenly I'm in this film with The Rock and I realize how utterly ill-equipped I am to be an action star. The first day I meet Dwayne Johnson, who couldn't be nicer, but is just a completely different beast from 24-year-old RP, who had a team of like macho guys around him, you know, there were people pepping him up. There was like weights on the set. There was like every time a gun was brought out,

Starting point is 00:37:46 it was like there was a kind of, you know, it was like a holy relic, you know, for the kind of, for the, for the doom fans. And, you know, there was the sort of whole kind of routine before a take of like, I don't even know what it was. It felt more like a sort of Maori, you know, all Blacks kind of, you know, pre-game sort of warm-up, something. And it was there was water spray. And I was just out of my comfort zone, out of my league, out of my depth. And the film was an absolute bomb. I mean, I probably could have ended my career.

Starting point is 00:38:19 I mean, it was just probably one of the worst films ever made. I mean, it was a catastrophe, I think. As I say, I don't read the reviews, but you get the sense. Like, you're lucky to have survived that one. But then it wasn't career ending for The Rock. Or you. Or me, as it turned out. It was probably after that that I started to do my research.

Starting point is 00:38:40 Because I didn't know enough about video games. I wasn't the right kind of girl to be in that. I didn't want to be the kind of sex symbol. So it's okay, I guess, to fail at being an action star. If to be an action star in those days was to be the kind of absolute bombshell sex symbol. I just wasn't that person. And so as the girl, I think, in a film like that, if the film is a bomb, you do think, shit, it's because I wasn't hot enough. It's because I wasn't hot enough. You know, I wasn't, it's not the total, obviously, the film of the film. But, you know, if loads of guys say that film is shit, your part in it is obviously to sort of, I don't know, play your character, but also kind of look hot. And I don't think I got that or took that seriously or kind of worked out for the gym body that, you know, a better female action star would have done. you know, all those things that nobody,

Starting point is 00:39:31 and also nobody helped me, nobody said, you know, nowadays I'm sure an actress cast in that would have a personal trainer, would have a sort of, there would be a conversation about sort of, you know, you're playing Laura Croft, this is how she should look. Would you ever want to be an action hero now,

Starting point is 00:39:49 if you were offered it? No, but if I'm going to be one, I want to bloody succeed at it. Okay. The high achiever. Did your agent, Dallas Smith, who picked you up from the National Youth Theatre. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:02 You've described it as one of the, probably the best professional relationship of your life. Did he say, Rosamond, you know, this was really bad and I'm not sure what we're going to do to have seen it. No, he's so diplomatic. He would have just said, well, darling, I know, I thought you were, you know, you were fantastic. Should we open another bottle?

Starting point is 00:40:22 And that's why it's a great professional relationship. Now he would have the confidence to be more honest. I think. I'll have to ask him. Well, you know, you might say, well, you know, darling, I mean, I always said I'd seen it. In fact, I've never seen it. At Desjardin, our business is helping yours. We are here to support your business through every stage of growth, from your first pitch to your first acquisition. Whether it's improving cash flow or exploring investment banking solutions, with Desjardin business, it's all under one roof.

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Starting point is 00:41:36 Don't wait. Visit your local GMC dealer today and make it yours. Infamous is the gossip show that's smart. We talk about Tyra Banks and bringing down top model. We talk about Jenna Jameson and how she dominated the 90s. You know, she's horny and she's in charge. She just was very smart about marketing herself. We talk about celebrities who maybe shouldn't be celebrities, like the Beckham guy. Brooklyn is their first kid.

Starting point is 00:42:02 He's had a little bit of the Nepo baby curse. We investigate orgasm cults. A woman's erotic power can unlock many other powers in her life. And, of course, we discuss people who have gotten into lots of trouble. My name is Molly McLaughlin. I am one of Jen Shaw's many victims. She was defrauding the elderly, and her tagline was the only thing I'm guilty of is being Amazing.

Starting point is 00:42:33 Listen to Infamous, the gossip show that's smart. The show's called Infamous. You did carry on to have this start of career and your final failure but one, but I'm going to keep, because you were generous enough to give me four when you only need to give me three. I'm so happy you're going to talk about this, Rosamond.

Starting point is 00:42:52 What is it? My failure to get married, as you put it. Oh, my failure to get married. Yes, well, it's a big deal for a 28-year-old, isn't it? When you sort of, you know, your sort of template for womanhood, You're doing the right thing. Got a lovely boyfriend. You know, he's asked you to marry him.

Starting point is 00:43:06 You're getting engaged. And, you know, there's going to be a wedding. And, you know, it's the right age. I remember him even asking me, you know, saying, are you pleased that you're getting married before you're 30? And I thought, oh, I hadn't thought about that. But yes, actually, I think I am. You know, it feels sort of right. It feels romantic.

Starting point is 00:43:23 And then the funny thing is, when you don't get married and people think the absolute worst. This is the film director Joe Wright who we met on Pride and Prejudice. We had a huge love affair. We were very, very in love. We had masses of adventures. We were very wild. And then it all fell apart. And when it falls apart, everybody thinks, oh my God, you know, what is it?

Starting point is 00:43:50 It must be an affair. Polygamy, you know, drug scandal. I mean, I don't even know what people think, but people definitely think the worst. And so they look at you. You get the benevolent pity again, all from all angles. And it is devastating. It's utterly devastating, but it's not devastating in any of the ways that people imagine. And people are speculating onto why it happens. And, you know, it was far less spectacular than any of the sort of, you know, than a polygamy story or a secret family or, you know, whatever. But, you know, for a while it was just awful because you don't want to go. You don't want to have Christmas because the last Christmas was. you know, with this person and suddenly you don't want to be around people who are being happy, who are happy and who are, you know, celebrating with their loved ones and, you know, with people who know them better than anyone. And, you know, even to sort of retreat back to your parents feels like a bit of a failure because you should be embarking on your own life and having them

Starting point is 00:44:49 round to your place. And, you know, so going back with your tail between your legs is sort of, it feels a bit, well, it feels like a failure as an adult, big adult failure. And also, you know, you'd really love someone and they don't love you anymore. That's also not great. Is that what happened? I think so. Yeah. Oh, Rosamond. How far do you, because I know the invitations have gone out. It must be weird that strangers know this, know this. Well, I mean, they, that's a story that's, again, speculation by the press, I'm afraid. That's not true. We'd ask people to save the date. We hadn't had invitations sent out. And we've had a lovely plan of a wedding in Italy. But the freedom from that afterwards is that you sort of think, okay, so people have, you know, you haven't

Starting point is 00:45:43 played, you haven't achieved the thing. I suppose the template, you know, he was a man who was eight years older than me. He was sort of, he was successful, he was good looking, he was funny, he was great. He was great. And then it doesn't happen. And you think, oh, no. But then you realize that actually you're free in a way because you think there are so many other templates of what life can look like for a woman. I mean, there are so many other ways that love can look like. And here I am, I'm not married, but I have a family. And I've been with someone for 14, 15 years, happily not married. Yes.

Starting point is 00:46:25 To want to create in a different way. For me, with the next big relationship, next big love of my life, it was more important to cement that or sort of mark that with starting a family than having a wedding. Because also I thought, I'm the center of attention so often. I don't need a wedding, you know. I don't even know if that is what having a wedding is about. I'm actually a great guest and I love weddings. I love, I find them really moving.

Starting point is 00:46:51 I always cry. I think making vows to someone is really beautiful. but I get a lot of opportunity in my life to wear beautiful clothes. And so that part of it, which I think for a lot of women, is so magical. Rightly so, you know, I didn't necessarily need that. But, you know, for any girls out there who are ending a sort of major relationship, I mean, you just cannot, you know, people say all these platitudes like, you know, time is a great healer and it's awful.

Starting point is 00:47:19 You just want them all to go away and shut up. But actually, other things come. And then you feel cool because actually you've done it your own way. And you've survived, which is the best part of all, is that you've weathered it and you've survived it. And you're still here. You know, that's the thing. That's the thing that all failure actually is, that's the biggest part is when you say, I'm fucking still here. And I've done it.

Starting point is 00:47:48 And I've, and this is in my past. And you can look at me with pity, with, you know, with, you know, with. sort of embarrassment for me and actually I don't feel any of that anymore and that's the freedom that's the freedom and it doesn't come straight away absolutely does not come straight away and if you you know now I can sit and talk to you about this without a kind of terrible knot in my stomach and I think until you can do that you're probably not over it that was so brilliant and it's like you're in my head because I often say that every failure will teach you something meaning in the fullness of time. And it can be that sometimes the only thing meaningful it teaches you

Starting point is 00:48:28 is that you are strong enough to survive it. But that in and of itself is so unbelievably powerful and liberating. And I went through a divorce in my mid-30s. And similarly, I felt like such a failure and I felt so much shame and embarrassment and all of that and heartbreak. And then I experienced exactly what you did, that idea of, well, life hasn't gone according to plan, the plan I sort of set myself. But having ripped that up, there's a blank canvas now to decide what I really want and to be in tune with one's own true desires. And so often social conditioning gets in the way of that, the idea of being married by a certain time, certain age. And I'm so pleased to hear that you are where you are with it. And did you think your marriage was, did you think you

Starting point is 00:49:16 married the wrong person or it just went wrong? You do think it was the wrong choice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Well, by the same token, I don't believe in regret for that hoary old reason that I wouldn't be where I am now. And I wouldn't have learnt the necessary lessons, I don't think, unless I'd done that. And I certainly didn't think he was the wrong person at the time. I know some people have that feeling on their wedding day and I didn't really. I think my partner now is famous for whispering to a bridegroom before he enters the church. You are the only person who thinks this is a good idea. What a legend.

Starting point is 00:49:51 So, you know, he's always been a relentless truth teller. Does one ever regret having a big love affair? I don't think you do. No, I agree. Even if it goes to shit and you feel, I mean, you feel, I mean, it is awful. It is awful. It's heartbreak is horrendous. It is a kind of grief.

Starting point is 00:50:07 It is so difficult. It's so difficult. And because that person still exists and they've chosen not to love you, it's just heartrending. I'm not saying this about you specifically. I'm saying one. It's fine. Yes, of course. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:50:21 You know. Have you seen him since? Not really. No. Not really. I mean, we once found that we were sat next to each other on an airplane coming back from Toronto Film Festival. And we got on this airplane and it was like if it was a movie, right? If it was a movie, that would have been the sort of, you know, that would be the rom-com ending is, oh, they sit next to each other on an airplane and they talk all night long on the flight back to London and then they get back together.

Starting point is 00:50:50 right but actually we talked all the way and that was our only conversation since ending and it was lovely what an ending to that story okay I know that we're running out of time but I want to talk to you about your sons because you live in this male household yes I do live in a male household and your sons are they 13 and 11 they are yeah 13 and 11 yeah what has being the mother of two boys taught you I really think life gives you what you need. I do think, you know, I always imagine myself having a daughter. You know, you could say there's a failure that I haven't had a daughter. You know, there's a sort of, I have a very close relationship with my mother.

Starting point is 00:51:30 She had a very close relationship with her mother. You know, there's been this mother-daughter thing that's been handed down. And I don't have that. And I do sometimes have a pang about that. People say, oh, you know, your sons leave you, your daughters never do. People are so full of doom. Are you chatting to you, someone from Crampford? I did do a bit of a voice, didn't I?

Starting point is 00:51:53 I love the brothers. I love the relationship of brothers. I think I always wanted brothers myself, but to watch the bond between two brothers and the fights and the sudden rage that can dissolve into laughter that I completely don't understand. I mean, I have no idea what's going on. They fight each other, they hurt each other,

Starting point is 00:52:12 and then they're laughing. I don't know what happens. I don't know why it happens. Only child is he doesn't. That doesn't understand it. But I love it. And I love the fact that it's pushing me to be a sort of adventuress, which I'm quite a coward, really. And I like to play brave people because I like to pretend that I'm not.

Starting point is 00:52:32 And I think I'm constantly in battle with my own fear. And I'm always pushing myself because I think I hate the part of myself that is fearful. And I really don't want to be that person. So I'm in a family of kind of adventurers who do extreme sports. And so I try and have a go. You know, they like kite surfing, they like skiing, they like scuba diving, they like, you know, they're football. I mean, I'd never touched a ball with my feet until I'd had sons. And that'll be the episode title.

Starting point is 00:53:05 I barely touched a ball, to be honest. But, you know, trying to kick one with your feet. You know, they've taught me so much, so much. You told me before we started recording that you're very sensitive to smell. Oh, yeah. How's that with some adolescent boys? Yeah, well, I'm at the moment we're okay. I'm a big, you know, I'm a big sort of I put deodorant everywhere.

Starting point is 00:53:25 I put leave it out, you know, feel free to use it. Like a basket. You know, basket. You know, I think when they're older, I'll leave condoms around. I mean, it's sort of, you know, I think you have to just make things available. And I said, you know, I said, don't you like it? Like when someone comes into your home, don't you think it's nice to come in and like smell like when I'm cooking? Isn't it nice to come home from school and smell that?

Starting point is 00:53:46 and they say yes. And I said, isn't it, if you go in somewhere and it really smells, like, do you want someone to come into your home and go, ooh, God, their house smells bad? I said, I really don't want that. It's one of the things I'm really, I think I'm really, it's my pride. I think my pride can't take it. But, you know, it's like, but then all the blame goes to the socks. And it's smelly, it's not, it's not the socks, it's your feet.

Starting point is 00:54:05 You know, it's your feet. Don't blame the things. But get in the shower, wash your feet and then the socks won't smell. There you go. You know, dry the football boots, leave them out somewhere, stuff them in the newspaper. I've got all the tips I've got so many DIY tips I'm really good with smells

Starting point is 00:54:20 I've got alcohol spray baking soda I know all this I know all this stuff I'm a regular Mrs. Beaten over here Your final bonus failure is your failure to cook a rabbit

Starting point is 00:54:32 Mrs. Beaten you see In fact there we get it was a seamless link yeah you see exactly could have written it no I'm quite ambitious as a cook as I say I grew up in quite a small flat

Starting point is 00:54:41 and my mum we didn't have a kitchen that was the kind of kitchen where people, anyone, more than one person couldn't be in our kitchen where I grew up. So what my mum was doing in the kitchen was always a bit of a mystery because it was too small to have anyone else in there. So she would always sort of want to be alone in there. And she would conjure amazing. She was a lovely cook. And I always wanted to do that because I think I have a sort of need to nourish people. I like to nourish people and I, anytime I've

Starting point is 00:55:07 ever been to a family home that's got a kitchen that you can sort of sit around a table, I've rather envied it. and so when I grew up and became an adult, I really wanted to be someone who people would think, let's go under her house because she's a great cook and, you know, I want to sit there and chew the fat and have long dinners and, you know, and I want to sort of provide. But it means that I can be quite ambitious. And it was in my sort of mid-20s, probably around the Pride and Prejudice time. and I, we'd been in Italy and I'd had sort of all this experience of sort of delicious sort of rabbit and it's something you don't really find in England to eat very much. But anyway, I thought I'm going to cook a rabbit and it's going to, I saw this recipe and it was all about it falling off the bone and being sort of, you know, cook it for slow.

Starting point is 00:55:55 And by the time my guests arrived, there was no way this thing was fucking falling anywhere near off the bone. It was like gripping onto that bone. And I was distraught. I couldn't stand the failure, as I perceived it of. And the kind of people were, and the more people said it looks delicious, the more I self-flagellated and load the fact that I was just a total incompetent failure. The thing I really wanted to be good at. I wanted to be the Earth Mother. And I don't think maybe I am, but, you know, I tried.

Starting point is 00:56:26 But it's the sort of, that's what I mean. It's a small event that has catastrophic self-flagellatory consequences because, you know, you want it too badly, right? You want the thing, you want it to be perfect. You want everybody to say that that meal was the best they ever had because it gave them such a lovely feeling. And then the wine we had and we talked through till 5 o'clock in the morning and we had the best time.

Starting point is 00:56:49 And of course, we probably did. And so since then, I've tended to sort of try and, I'm much more kind of fly by night by my cooking, about my cooking. I'm kind of, I'm now much more relaxed. Like I don't, I know how to cook, I know how to conjure good flavors. It might be a bit chaotic. It might be a bit late. The thing, the dishes might not come together.

Starting point is 00:57:13 But I will feed you well and I will kind of give you a good time. I mean, it's a bit of a sort of trivial thing, you know, in relation to, you know, my marriage ending and my failure to cook a good dinner. But failure is really all about who you want to be and your failure to meet your own standards. I mean, there's public failure, obviously. there's like going bankrupt or but there's always a reason isn't there why that would happen and it probably is you trying to be someone

Starting point is 00:57:38 you're not even the going bankrupt it will be that you've pretended that you were thriving when you weren't or you wanted to be someone who had you wanted to be perceived to be someone who had more money than you do or it's usually about how you want to be perceived

Starting point is 00:57:53 and usually you've inherited that story of what success is from someone else or from a society that might not reflect your values. And actually what it says to me, Rosamman Pike, I don't want to eat rabbit. I don't need you to cook anything. Are you vegetarian? No, I'm not. I just don't like the idea of rabbit. Even falling off the bone or other words. Falling off the bone sounds better than the alternative, like gripping onto the bone, I think, as you put it. But the point I wanted to make

Starting point is 00:58:21 is that people want to come for dinner with you because of you. Like, you are enough. You are glorious company. You are enough. Take that and put it in your luminae. But you are really, I've enjoyed this so much. You're so witty and intelligent and brilliant and this has been a great conversation. And I think that's the thing. Actually, we don't need the rabbit. We just need you. You are enough. That's it. That's all we need to. You are enough. You have always been enough. You will always be enough. Harder to say than to put an eye on it and then try and say it. I know, yes. No, that sounds horrible and cringe,

Starting point is 00:58:58 and I can possibly do that. Yeah. You did it. You did it. Listen, thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail. You're welcome. I've enjoyed it. Yes, the therapy womb.

Starting point is 00:59:14 Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land. On Apple Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you.

How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Rosamund Pike - ‘Failure Is Pretending To Be Someone You’re Not’

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