How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - Ruth Wilson - Be Challenged By What Disgusts You

Episode Date: November 26, 2025

Ruth Wilson MBE has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles. You’ll know her from playing a mother grieving the loss of her child in The Affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther or even from her acclaimed stage performances in Anna Christie and King Lear. Now, Wilson is back with Apple TV's Down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Herron. She stars opposite Emma Thompson, as an art restorer swept up in a high stakes crime drama. We talk about her getting rejected from Oxford University, her failure to run the London Marathon in the way she envisaged and the power of aging naturally. Plus: how her father’s Alzheimer’s diagnosis has helped her live in the present. A beautiful and intelligent conversation with a phenomenally talented actor. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Introduction 02:11 The Power of Art 04:07 Working with Emma Thompson 07:04 Aging Naturally 08:57 Getting Rejected From Oxford 14:04 Grandfather Being a Spy & a Bigamist 20:21 A Very Royal Scandal 23:36: The London Marathon 31:37 Failing to Trust The Creative Process 38:30 The 24-Hour Play 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: ‘People are endlessly fascinating and surprising. They're never what you expect and you can find connections with anyone.’ ‘I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, because only then will you grow. Only then will you live properly.’ ‘Our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel. So, do it and be challenged.Be challenged by what disgusts you.’ 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Ruth stars in Down Cemetery Road - watch on Apple TV Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ 📚 WANT MORE? Sharon Horgan - talks about drama school, auditions and a very personal failure: her marriage https://link.chtbl.com/hR7kycoN Simon Callow - reflects on how admitting vulnerability around his sexuality and ambition shaped his career and self-belief swap.fm/l/3PddGvv8lKReXT5WJRWl Gugu Mbatha-Raw - on how failing at ballet led to her succeeding at acting. Plus: resisting typecasting, dealing with difficult co-stars and how her restlessness drives her forward https://link.chtbl.com/wDCLLc94 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Elizabeth and Ruth answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Producer: Nia Deo Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I remember first watching, like myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. I'm like, that's how I walk. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done. Just because you have to look at your face, your face is on a poster, it's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size. Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that delves underneath the surface of success to discover how our failures really. shape us. Before we get into this conversation, please be sure to tap the subscribe button because it really helps other people find us and it means that you will never miss a single

episode. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace is here to support entrepreneurship and help turn your passion into a business. It does so with cutting-edge design, seamless check out for customers with simple but powerful payment tools. It helps you turn leads into clients, allowing you to grow and communicate with your audience. Their customers include the dusty knuckle bakery and cafe in East London, and if you know, you know their bread is amazing. They're a Squarespace customer and a brilliant example of how to do it right. Their training program provides young people who've been excluded by society with the basic skills for work and life. Go check them out.

Head to Squarespace.com slash fail 10 for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code fail 10, that's fail 1.0, to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Walk down the street in any American city, and you will stumble into the frame of someone else's TikTok video. To have property is to have privacy. But what if someone saw you as their property? I'm not going to sit here and listen to this shit. And every moment of your life is placed under the microscope. This man is dangerous.

This is the story of a mother, Nikki Liley, who went missing one summer night in Georgia in 2011 and how her disappearance unraveled a twisted knot of jealousy, lies, and the need for control so shocking, it's hard to put into words. Welcome to my world. It killed me a long time ago. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is watching you. Coming December 1st to The Binge. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. The actor Ruth Wilson has made a habit of tackling psychologically demanding roles.

Since her 2006 breakout in the BBC miniseries, Jane Eyre, a role she was cast in straight out of drama school, Wilson has garnered awards and critical acclaim for her portrayals of complex women. Whether it's a mother grieving the loss of her child in the affair, a sociopathic research scientist in Luther, a villain in his dark materials, or whether it's Wilson's stellar stage performances as Hedegabler, Anna Christie or Cordelia in King Lear, she brings a fierce intelligence and inner emotion to each role. Along the way, she's been awarded two Olivier's, a golden globe and an MBE. She was raised in Shepperton, Surrey, the youngest of four, and the only

only daughter of Nigel, an investment banker and Mary, who retrained as a probation officer after raising her children. At her all-girls Catholic school, the 11-year-old Wilson was a nascent feminist who often questioned authority, at one time taking in a facts of life book and informing the nuns that their pupils absolutely needed sex education. There were no actors in Wilson's family, or so she thought, until her grandmother died, and it emerged that Wilson's grandfather Alexander had been a bigamist and a spy. Some hitherto unknown relatives emerged. It was a story that she later portrayed on screen in 2018. Now Wilson is back with Apple TV's Down Cemetery Road, based on novels by Mick Heron, who also wrote Slow Horses. Wilson stars opposite

Emma Thompson as an art restorer swept up in a high-stakes crime drama. I think it's important to face things you don't want to see, Wilson says, about acting. Because only then will you grow. Only then will you live properly. Ruth Wilson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me. That quote you gave about a specific play that you saw.

It was Carol Churchill's play. Here we go. I was wondering what that came from. Yes, yes. Which you describe as a life-changing experience. Yeah, it was the most extreme. It's one, you know, you go to play sometimes, and it's when they have a huge effect on you,

and you think, okay, this is why theatre is important or why it can make such an impression on you. And this is a play written by Carol Churchill. It got like one stars across the board. I thought it was the most incredible thing I'd ever seen. It was about death, really. It was about facing death and the end of life. And it was three sort of acts.

And the first act was a group of people at a funeral talking about this person who died. And then individually they all stood out and looked out at the audience and said when their time to die was. and it was just the most uncomfortable thing to watch. People were walking out of the theatre

because it was horrible. It was so awkward. It's like painful. But I was like, this is amazing. It's making me feel so many things. And I'm watching people walk out because they can't bear it. So I was like, wow, no, we have to feel this.

This is what's going to happen to all of us. I thought it was so interesting that analysis of the process of the power of art to confront given that the young Ruth Wilson was confronting her nuns about teaching sex education. Is that something that drives you

the need to challenge whoever is watching? Yeah, I think so. I think there's a sense of come on, think, feel. You know, only then will you be able to sort of reflect and learn or have empathy

or, you know, move forward. And I don't know, I think that's what we do as humans. It's like our gift as a human is to be able to think and feel. So do it and be challenged, be challenged what makes you scared. Be challenged by what disgusts you. Be challenged by those things. Question why it disgusts you or why you're upset by it. And in Down Cemetery Road, you play this character who feels she's being lied to.

and wants to call that out. And part of what I loved about it was seeing you and Emma Thompson these two powerhouses, these two female powerhouses, and it struck me how rare that still is. Yeah, it is very rare. And in a show like this as well, which is a sort of crime thriller, it's not two women talking about a man. You know, it's two women on a mission being shot at

and on boats and planes and automobiles or everything else. And they're really funny and dry-witted and complicated and petulant and childish. And, I mean, what we all are as humans. So it was a joy to do that and to work with her and find some sort of fun dynamic between the two of us. It's really rare, really rare in the space we're in. And a shame that it's still so rare, actually. I know now that Tasteli and Claudia Wincomen are leaving strictly, what are we going to do?

It's you and Emma. Oh, my God. The natural air. Your natural airs. Hey, bring it on. BBC, we're ready. Now, it's not the first time you've acted in the same project as Emma, but I think it's the first time you've seen each other on set. Because you were in saving Mr. Banks, where you played her mother. I played a mother, strangely. I mean, yeah, I mean, I've aged well. But, no, I played her mom. I never had a scene with her. I was kind of her depressed mother. And we met on the

red carpet afterwards. So this is not, you know, that was just a, we had a photo opportunity together really for that. So yeah, this, we actually get to play with each other. And it was, the script is so good because it's not like there's one obvious lead. I mean, she's the sort of more balshy, older, wise cracking character, but my character is quite surprising and reckless. And so I think we kept surprising each other and the writing kept surprising us and who we were playing. So it was really fun to do because we kept sort of taking the lead from each other or undercutting each other and it leads to a really fun dynamic. Do you think you've learned from watching her work? Yes. She's so free and easy

and throws everything away and doesn't seem to care about anything. I was like, wow, she's got so much freedom and likeness to the way she works. And I was like, that's really, I want to do more of that. So it rubbed off of me during it. And certainly for a piece like this, it's not, you know, it's not like really intense emotional material. So just have fun with it, throw it away. And she's, there's a lightness of touch with her,

which I think is really special. And then she can switch on the emotional depth when she needs it. We'll get on to your relationship with the creative process later because it pertains to one of your failures. But before we do, I also wanted to ask you about the fact that you and Emma are by any token to phenomenally views for women. And you are also women in the Hollywood public eye who have aged it naturally. And again, it struck me how rare that is to see and what an act of bravery it is when it shouldn't be. it's really hard because the pressure is on everyone does it everyone does something to their face and it's all available now more than ever it's it's sort of you know you either just you either

choose to sort of join your peers and put stuff in your face and make yourself look I don't think it makes you look younger it just makes you look like you've had stuff done like if you look at people who are 60, 70, and someone's had work and someone hasn't, they don't really look different ages. They just look like someone's had work and someone hasn't had work, but so it does feel like you have, you make a choice and it's sort of, I don't know, it's difficult in my industry. If I wasn't an actor, I wouldn't, I don't think I'd think twice about the idea of having work done. Just because you have to look at your face, your face is on a poster. It's on a lens and you're pumped up to this size. Your face is made bigger in a

cinema screen. You know, you're like, oh, you can see yourself aging. Let's get into your failures because you did this very generous thing. You gave me your failures, the sort of one-sentence failures. And then yesterday, I got this extraordinary essay that I said beforehand. I was like, this has done my work for me. I thought it would give a more context. It was all the way of me processing what I was thinking about. Your first failure is your failure to get into Oxford University. Yeah. Which for an overthinking perfectionist, I imagine, is tricky.

But tell me, first of all, like, why you applied or who was it who told you that you should? Yes, I was thinking about this. I was like a sort of superficial failure because it's not something I hold a lot to now. And I don't think I really did it at the time. But it was interesting sort of why, exactly, why I applied and... what it meant to me. I was, I did history at, I was at Eisha College at this point, I'd left the convent. I'd gone to Eisha College. I spent two years there. I loved it. It was my best years of academia. Like I was doing classics, theatre studies and history. I got on really

well the teachers. I adored it. But I was harboring a secret desire to act. My theatre studies teacher had told me, you should give it a go. But I never mentioned it to anyone. I thought it was a complete pipe dream. I didn't believe it would really be possible, but I was harboring this secret desire. So I thought, okay, I'll go to university and I'll do acting on the side. I didn't know how to get into acting,

so I just, you know. And someone, my history teacher said, you should apply to Oxford. I'm like, yeah, okay, actually, I know a lot of actors, including Emma, who went to Cambridge, but a lot of actors who I admire, they got into acting by going to Oxford.

I thought that's a way to get into acting yeah completely putting the academia aside and thinking I could even do that so I thought yeah okay I'll apply

and I did one of the worst interviews I should think ever why was it so bad my history teacher had told me I done some prep with him and he told me okay if they come up with a subject

that we haven't studied just tell them you haven't done that we haven't studied that and I found myself saying that over and over again in the interview and I think it was a way of me not answering the question or if I didn't know the answer I'd just a go-to sort of response. I found myself saying it over and over again

and they're looking more and more disappointed in front of me. And then there was another part of the interview. He had two interviews over a weekend and the other interview was with this guy. He was going quite well and then he asked me, so where do you live? And I said, I live in Sheperton. He said, what kind of house do you live in? And I said, well, it's an old Victorian house. He said, okay, so who do you think lived there when it was first built? And I was like, mind blank. And I go, that's my clown a bit.

I just go completely blank. And I said, oh, actually it is interesting because on the side of the wall of that house, people have scratched in their initials who've lived at this house. And he said, well, oh, right, so who lived there? And of course I hadn't ever looked into who those initials were. I didn't know who they were at all, showed no curiosity about who had lived in the house. So I think they were like, okay, she's definitely not, you know, this isn't someone we want. She's got no interest in history whatsoever.

And it was kind of, I think, it was an disingenuous reason as to why I wanted to go to Oxford. I didn't care about the academia. I wasn't really interested in studying history. I love history, but wasn't that interested in it. and I was sort of that was revealed in the interviews really and I wasn't my dad had gone to Oxford as well so I kind of felt maybe I should follow his footsteps but I wasn't confident enough

in saying what I really wanted to do at that point and I'm so interested that you felt you shouldn't be open about your desire to act why was that do you think I think from where I grew up no one in my family had gone into acting

no one in my family was an artist of any sort of note we all we all did sport and we all did normal subjects we were kind of

very conventional the idea of going into acting something completely absurd and I sort of felt it didn't come from anywhere

I didn't feel like there was a path that I could follow so I felt a bit silly I thought everyone had those pipe dreams. Everyone wanted to be famous or sing, you know, a singer or an actor. And so I just thought maybe this is a sort of silly pipe dream that I have.

So I had to, I was pursuing it really secretly. And it was only when I went to, I went to university and did study history at Nottingham, where the stakes weren't so high in a way. And there I found a really amazing community of friends who are now very successful in the industry. but we all did acting in this little theatre society and that's where I directed for the first time and we produced plays and we took a play to Edinburgh and New York and all sorts

and it was where I got to sort of explore my passion in a safe environment and it was where I decided, okay, I've really got to give this a go. And that parallel I drew between you and your grandfather and the introduction is actually a parallel that you've drawn rather than my projecting what I believe to be. Yeah. But do you, tell me more about that, because then did that make sense of your desire to play other parts?

Completely. I mean, my grandfather was a fantasist. I mean, he wrote 27 spy novels and he had numerous wives and lots of kids and very odd guy. He was a liar, you know, and that's, I mean, actors, I don't really think they're liars, actually, actors. They're sort of, we live in alternative universes, though. and so I could see where the capacity of imagination had come from and where that creative imagination had come from and it was that line of the family which was really surprising to me

because my dad is quite straight when I guess like you said he worked in the banking and in London and gone to Oxford and was quite a sort of conventional life so it did make sense to me suddenly that I had this other very imaginative creative side of the family and his other sons from different families one had been a jobbing actor's whole life

one had written poetry so I said oh okay we do have a creative strand in the family it's not completely mad that I've gone into this world and what do you think the overall lesson is of this failure reflecting back on it

I don't know I mean part of me thinks that's why I think it's a bit of a superficial failure in a way it's like I don't I think it was more about trusting instinct like I knew it didn't feel I didn't feel that Oxford I would thrive at Oxford. I knew that. I knew going there.

It was like not really me. I felt flattered by people saying you should give it a go. I felt like, oh, maybe I should carry on do what my dad did. Maybe this is my way into acting. The actual, you know, I didn't have any real desire to be at Oxford doing history at all. So it felt disingenuous. I felt like, and when I went to Nottingham, I felt instantly at ease there. So I suppose it's something about instinct.

Maybe it's about instinctive choices and that I wasn't admitting to really what I wanted or what I felt was true. And it was revealed to me quite quickly. There's an intro. Yeah, by those interviews. Yeah. I was like, okay.

There's an interesting interplay here between truth-telling and lying. Yeah. Because you describe your grandfather as a liar and yet had this imaginative, fantastic or bent. And then you said, I don't think actors are liars.

and I agree with you. I don't think they are. I think they're truth tellers. And they use performance as a vehicle for telling that truth. Yes. And this failure is all about you understanding the truth of yourself, really. Yes. Yeah. And it was a long journey of like working out, being honest with yourself about what you really want and having the confidence to say it. And I think that was also, for me, it took me a long time to gain the confidence of my truth and my instinct. And I think that whole interview I was lying all around I wasn't lying I was sort of trying to cover

and like even the way I reacted he asked me about who do you think lived in the house and I just rather than sort of coming up with some or even saying I don't know actually I'm not sure I was like oh you know there's something on the side I would keep trying to sort of lie my way out of something or bullshit my way out and I think you know we're similar ages

and I think also for women of our generation, we're in that interesting spot between first-wave feminism. Yes, we're caught between. Exactly. And I also experienced that, that sort of desire to please others and to perform to please others, leading me further and further away from my actual self.

Yes. And then there was a big implosion in my life and then I was like, oh, right, now I get it, now I have an opportunity to live authentically. Yes. When do you think that happened for you? Was it this Oxford experience? No.

I mean, I think Nottingham made me, I mean, when I was there, I was with a group of great people, like-minded people, and I found my community. I think it was also that. It was like you were surrounded by people that perhaps were more confident in their desires. And it was similar to your, do you know, I mean, you sort of found people that also were honest about what they wanted to do. And lots of them, we'd done all these plays together,

and lots of them said, okay, I'm going to go to drama school. And I was like, oh, they're going to, yeah, I fucking want to go to drama school. school. You know, and I think it was that, that was the sort of moment of clarity for me. And I gave myself two years to get a job. I was like, okay, I, if they don't want me, I won't, I'll do something else. And you went straight into Jane Eyre? It was my second job, yeah, and it was, it's almost 20 years ago now. Wow. 20 years next year. I just wonder if you'll indulge me because I just want to say that the affair, particularly the first season, yes. changed how I thought about storytelling

in the most extraordinary way and you know I also write books and it really like helped me with plot and everything it was amazing you were amazing what was it like that first season did you feel you were doing something really special I didn't I don't think we ever knew

it was going to be a massive hit or it was going to work you never do quite but I knew it was fun to do and I was really I loved the challenge of it and then of course it came out And it, yeah, you know, you sign on to how many seasons. I remember Dominic and I at the Golden Globes, you know, won the Golden Globe. And we were totally, everyone was so shocked because it had just come out.

And I remember looking at him and going, four more, five more years. We've got five more years now. This is Dominic West. Dominic West, like, five more years. Shit, are we ready for five more years? But it was, it was amazing and the cast were amazing. And it was really, like you say, it's such an interesting, obvious way of, writing material or putting a story out there

that hadn't been done often and often that's the best always a simple approach to something which it seems obvious is the best way you're very good at accents so obviously you nailed an American accent for the affair to the surprise of many people

who would then meet you in the street and be like hang on a second but you also portrayed Emily Maitlis and you nailed her voice Ruth. No I loved playing her that was great fun She's great She's great I mean what I love

She just I was like she loves Being Emily Maitless I mean But I was like I love playing her for that There was sort of She's fearless

And she I mean she does have doubts But not many I was like wow You're amazing And I loved her hair As soon as I put the blonde wig on And put my contact lenses in

And put the voice on And I was just Emily And her big boots And I loved I loved playing her She lent you The original jacket From the Prince Andrews

She did And her handbag Which was covered You know It's like a really expensive handbag she's had for years. And inside it's all got ink, pen ink, and the inside. I was going to put my name in there. Ruth was here, which I did attempt it to do. I'm sort of hesitant to ask you this question because I don't want to conflate the acting

with the real life shenanigans. Are you following what's happening with Prince Andrew? Do you have a certain perspective because you had to get into that mode? I mean, I have more interest. I don't have I got a certain perspective, but because I've watched that interview, I mean, I've watched that interview hundreds of times. It's like I've probably watched it more than, well, Gillian Anderson has probably watched an equal amount of me and Michael Sheen. But it was, yeah, so I sort of have an understanding, an understanding of how the interview came about. So I do, I have more interested, I suppose, in it, whether I have more insight, I don't know. Emily is really interesting.

Emily is so interesting there because she's a journalist and you're probably trained in the same way is that you sometimes are trained not to have opinions. You know, you're trained to sort of be able to take every point of view. So even if I'd ask Emily quite direct questions, she would never give me a straight opinion. It would be, well, you know, it was always sort of around that answer. So it was really fascinating being inside out

And it's continuing to reveal. I mean, there's going to be more that comes out, I'm sure, that hasn't come out yet. And one thing that was really, this is where I go sort of art does matter, is that we did that piece and Virginia Jaffray watched the show. And she's mentioned it in her book. And she, the speech that Emily gives, or my character gives in the third episode, which is about sort of how women have to keep. the victim has to keep telling their story.

That really resonated with her. And she's quoted that speech word for word in her book. It was something that she found, she did feel seen or felt validated or understood at least. So I feel very proud that she felt that from our show, really. Walk down the street in any American city, and you will stumble into the frame of someone else's TikTok video. To have property is to have privacy.

But what if someone saw you as their property? I am not going to sit here and listen to this shit. And every moment of your life is placed under the microscope. This man is dangerous. This is the story of a mother, Nikki Liley, who went missing one summer night in Georgia in 2011 and how her disappearance unraveled a twisted knot of jealousy, lies, and the need for control so shocking, it's hard to put into words.

Welcome to my world. You killed me a long time ago. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is watching you, coming December 1st to The Binge. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Your second failure is your failure to compare. the London Marathon in 2024 in the way that you wanted. Now, but this has actually a very, very emotional resonance to it. Why were you running the marathon in the first place?

So my dad was diagnosed with Alzheimer's probably, well, about five years ago. He ran the very first London Marathon, so 1981. And my brother came up with the idea that we should all run it in honour of him and for the charity, Alzheimer's Research. And my sister-in-law had lost her mother to Alzheimer's and had run the marathon four times in her honour. So we're like, okay, yeah, we should do this. I mean, all of us were slightly reluctant, the idea of running a marathon. I'd never considered ever running a marathon in my life.

I'd never, it'd never crossed my mind. But we all decided to do it. We got places. And then, yeah, then we, it became competitive, which is what happens in my family. It was quite interesting. It was fun. But the process of training, we're all on Strava, keeping up with each other, you know, being supportive but also keeping tabs on each other, you know?

Because you're the only girl and the youngest, I guess there's an extra pressure. Yeah, I was like, I cannot let the team down. I'm not going to, I have to, this is always the case. I have to keep up with them, do as well as them, if not better. And that's my own shit. Do you know what I mean? It's not anything they really put on me, but it was definitely a sense. It was, you know, a sense of, like, competitive nature. My nephew was also doing it, which was lovely. So it was five of us all together. And then it sort of came to the day, and it was, we all were running our separate races.

I knew that everyone was trying to get a time. And I knew that everyone was sort of trying to get under four hours. And it became about that. It was weirdly, in your own drive. Running it, it was great. It was sort of amazing, seeing everyone around, you know, all the amazing people running for different charities. very moving and I had in my head

this idea I'd imagine me finishing like I imagined oh I'm going to run across the line I'm going to be triumphant crying

you know it's all going to be really emotional I had this sort of idea of what it's going to feel like at the end and then of course five miles before the end my leg completely packed up

like my shin and my calf just froze I couldn't I couldn't I could hardly walk in it really I was limping around and

I just thought I'm going to have to walk the rest of it I can't I can't drop out I've got to walk but and I thought it's going to do it my own and then one of my brothers who was behind me he caught up with me and he is like what are you right I was like no I fuck my leg run on go on save yourself

I was like no you go and he's like no I'm going to walk with you and he stopped and we walked the last four miles or five miles on together. And it was really emotional and it was really, at first I was very disappointed. I was disappointed in myself. I was disappointed in my body.

I've put myself through quite difficult things like in my work and my body's not the thing that gives up. Did I mean it's like that always goes, keeps going? So I was like, oh wow, my body can't do this. I just assumed I'd be able to do it. I assumed I'd get round. And I did do it. Even now I'm talking.

Like, I'm, it was a disappointment. It's like, I did get around it. It's like 26 miles. It's intense. But he stopped and he walked with me. And, you know, slowly in that, as we walked the last four miles, five miles, sort of my expectation of what the outcome was supposed to be sort of gradually disappeared. Like I just was like, okay, just.

You're in the moment now, and this is what's important. And very emotional, actually even in the retelling of it, I feel that emotion. Yeah. And there's something about presence in the moment that I imagine is particularly meaningful, given your father's condition. Yes. How is he? He's good. He's like, well, he's good. He's as well as he can be in a way.

I mean, my mum is extraordinary. and I think it really helps if you have a partner who takes care of you and makes you feel safe if you're in that scenario, if you're losing. She's so generous and she's so patient with him and he is, I mean, he knows who he are. He can't remember what happened yesterday or what's happening tomorrow.

Mom needs to take him to the bathroom and she needs to dress him every morning he sort of has to be constantly reminded of where he is and what he's doing and he can't really communicate he's lost language he occasionally is really lucid and very funny I'll come up with a joke every now and then

so he's there but he's sort of fading in and out so much for sharing and thank you also for the work that you do for the Alzheimer's research Yeah. My best friend lost her mother to Alzheimer's at the beginning of this year. And so I have a little perspective onto what that is like. And I think these conversations are so important. And it's one of those diseases that needs funding and needs more attention. It's one of our biggest killers. And no one, I think because it's associated with old age, people dismiss it as just old age. you don't have to suffer from Alzheimer's there are going to be and there's so much money being ploughed well there's not enough

we need more money being ploughed into research because and there's things on the cusp of discovering like a cure or you know the real factors behind it it's still

it's a bit like cancer in that it's very particular to the individual so it manifests very different for every person. And that's why it's so hard to find one cure for it. You have to kind of deal with a human who's having the experience. But it is a cruel, it's a cruel disease and it slowly takes the life away from someone. And you know, I was looking at a photo of my dad the other day and I was like, that's him, that was him.

You know, he was always, he loved talking, he loved having big, massive jacks. massive chats about politics, history. We'd talk for hours. You know, we'd be up to two in the morning chatting about what's going on in the world. And my dad and mum, you know, mum was a socialist or she was lefty and dad was a Tory.

So we'd have these great debates at home always. Clash of politics and ideas. So it's sad seeing, I can't have those conversations with him anymore. Well, I wish your father and your mother Yeah. The best and we're thinking of them and thank you so much for talking about. It's something so important.

Yeah. This Giving Tuesday, Cam H is counting on your support. Together we can forge a better path for mental health by creating a future where Canadians can get the help they need when they need it, no matter who or where they are. From November 25th to December 2nd, your donation will be doubled. That means every dollar goes twice as far to help build a future where you're going to be. where no one's seeking help is left behind. Donate today at camh.ca.ca slash giving Tuesday.

Your final failure, it's a little one. It's a small little failure. I looked at Malcolm Gladwell's. I was like, Jesus, he's really intense. I was like, okay, I've got to be a bit more serious on my failures. I'm glad you know it's at Malcolm Gladwell's because he actually, one of his failures was failure to run. Oh, was it?

Well, he started taking joy in the mediocrity of his running rather than being competitive with himself. Yes. Yes. Well, your final one is your failure to trust the creative process. Okay. Yeah, deep dive. Yes, okay.

Deep dive. So has that got any better with all your many awards? No. No, it has. It has got better. I mean, this is just a broad one because I was thinking, okay, what is it that I do attempt and fail out consistently? And it is failure every single time.

No matter how, you know, well a show goes down or whatever, how well a job does and out in the world, in the process of it, I consistently think it's going to be an absolute failure and think that I'm an absolute failure in it. And it's so weird. It's like, come on. And my partner's always like, okay, Ruth, you said this last time. And I'm like, no, but this time, this time, this time. No, it's different this time. He's like, you said that last time. So it's some weird, I don't know, I haven't sort of managed to trace a new pathway in my brain as to what the reality is. And I don't know why, I think it's like many reasons why, but it will manifest in a sort of way of, if I'm doing a play in rehearsals, I have sort of, you know, massive crisis of faith in the material in what I'm doing. if it's TV and film and it happens more often than that it's usually once the day is done of filming that I'll go home

and on the day the reality of the actual scene and doing it probably fine for lots of different things but I go home and eat my own head for hours obsessing over what I should have done what I didn't do well enough

it's completely pointless and it's exhausting and it's boring for everyone around me and it's just it's not reality actually So it's quite weird that I do it And it's I'm getting better

I am getting better But it is a failure that I want to work on It's so interesting though Because as you're talking I relate to everything you say Or be it not with acting But with a podcast interview I will constantly be thinking

God that I phrase that question so badly Yes And then when I listen back I'm like why didn't I ask this Why did I gavle on Why didn't I leave silence here And again with writing books I now understand

a bit like your partner was saying, it's part of my process, approximately two-thirds the way through. I will think I'm the worst writer who has ever committed, Penn to paper. Yeah, I mean, I think it's obvious, most people have this feeling, right? Yes, but I wonder if it's actually, because you can see all the things that you could be doing, it makes you a better actor in a way. Yeah, just very neurotic. I mean, when I look at everyone, I'm going, I'm not sure she's going home and, you know, breaking down the scene. Have you asked her?

I will ask her. I don't think she does. I mean, well, okay, I'll be surprised if she does. I think she has a beer and just that's a great time. And there was one time recently, I was like, okay, just stop, think, don't think that. And suddenly there was an empty blank, nothing. I was like, well, there's those things I could do now. I could work out. I could read a book. I could, you know, make dinner. I could do loads. Suddenly, actually, if I took that away, there's loads of things I could do. But there was a sort of emptiness. And I sort of thought, oh, this is a habit that I've taught myself to do that makes it feel more important than it actually is, maybe. Yeah, and also maybe you're scared of the emptiness. I'm scared of the emptiness. So you're filling it.

Exactly. I'm filling it with just really useless shit. Because, you know, we've done the scene. You can't go back to it. It's done it's dusted. What's the point in worrying about it? Do you watch back your own work if it's on TV or film? I sometimes have to because I'm sometimes produced stuff

and so you're in the edit or you're getting sent edits of it and I'll maybe watch one episode just to see Tonally or if it's working I kind of hate it although there is a plan to watch the whole eight episode of Down Cemetery Road on one day Emma's idea I blame her entirely and I'm dreading it I'm not sure I'm going to be able to make it through. I have to watch eight hours of myself.

I mean, that's not fun. No. That's kind of like, oh, my God. Why did I do that? Sometimes you're like, oh, that's okay. Oh, that really works. And then other times you're like, that's just, oh my God. And then you're like, I look old.

Oh, weird. You look great and you're amazing. But can you imagine watching yourself. I can't. It's horrendous. Like, I struggle with this having to be filmed for social media clips. I just now seek to try and disconnect myself. I'm like, that's just a version of myself.

It's not actually how I look. No, exactly. That's all you can do. Yeah. I remember first watching, like, myself from the back of my head on a screen because I was like, God, I never see the back of myself. I'm like, that's how I walk. Oh, God.

You know, it's like, suddenly. I had this experience yesterday of seeing a film of me walking away, and I was like, God, I'm so a hunchback. It's like round-shouldered, sort of lump and oaf walking on the screen. It's awful. Yeah. People know too much. Yeah.

What is the worst creative experience you've ever had in this context? And then what's the best? Okay, so the worst. And I'm picking like, it was a job that actually, and this is another proof of why it's completely useless, is a film I did called The Little Stranger, which is like a film with Lennie Abramsom directed it. And I think it was a particular point in my life, to be honest. I think I was sort of, it was like I was about 37 or something. probably going through some sort of transition

but very, I was hyper self-conscious for some reason and I was doing, we all had, I'd like fake teeth in, I was playing a posh woman called Caroline Ayres and it's another book, the adaptation of a book everyone was doing, had like tashes on and it was a little

bit, and it wasn't comedic, it was very naturalistic but there was something I felt very uncomfortable and self-conscious and I felt like Lenny, even though this isn't true, again it's all in my brain, I felt like he wasn't happy with what I was doing or something. And I was deeply self-conscious through the whole of that film.

And I thought it was going to be the end of my career, or it was over. And my poor boyfriend was getting it every night. I was like, and I felt so uncomfortable on set and being looked at. And then the actual final product is one of my better performances. And I was like, okay, I've got no control over this. This means even in discomfort, the camera reads something interesting. What's the best creative experience at? The 24-hour play, which was, again, because I had no time to think anything.

I couldn't, the whole setup of that. So this was a 24-hour play I did on stage. I did one scene 100 times with 100 different men, most of which weren't actors. and I'd never met them before and never rehearsed the scene with them it was like a 10-15-minute scene every two hours I'd have a break for 15 minutes and got to pee and eat some food

but I was on stage doing this repetitive thing it was a kind of piece of performance art really rather than straight theatre but it was the most electric and just fulfilling thing I lived in my life

because I couldn't plan anything it was totally up to the gods who walked on and it was about creating again being completely present creating some sort of unique energy with that person opposite you

and they're all randoms I never met them before and we had to dance we had to kiss we had to like sort of break up and you know leave each other

and whatever it was all very interesting it was fascinating and I was so full of love by the end of it because it was like people are endlessly fascinating and surprising

They're never what you expect And you can find connection with anyone That's the most incredible note to end this on I am such a firm believer in the power of connection I have only connect tattooed on my wrist It is everything And I'm so so grateful to you Ruth Milsson For coming on to How to Fail

No thank you for having me It's been wonderful Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land On Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts, please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast.

Thank you so much for listening.