How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S1, Ep8 How to Fail: Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: August 29, 2018

For the last episode of the first season of How To Fail With Elizabeth Day, our interviewee is…well…Elizabeth Day. Which means I’m currently writing shownotes about myself in the third person. Which is weird. Let me stop doing that.Over the course of the last eight weeks, I’ve been lucky enough to interview some truly wonderful, interesting, successful people, all of whom have opened up to me and made themselves vulnerable by discussing the place failure occupies in their lives. It seemed only fair to turn the tables on myself.In this episode, I’m truly honoured to have my brilliant friend Dolly Alderton interviewing me. Dolly is not only the author of the bestselling memoir, Everything I Know About Love, but she’s also a super-talented journalist and co-host of the iTunes-topping The High Low podcast. The way she interviewed me is really quite spectacular because she made it feel like a conversation, sharing her own excellent insights and humour along the way. As a result, I ended up being far more honest than I’d intended, opening up about everything from infertility and grief to intimacy and regret. I also talk about my conspicuous failure to be good at sport, despite lots of people assuming I must be good at things like tennis and running because I’m tall. I know, it makes no sense to me either.This is the final episode in this season, but How To Fail With Elizabeth Day will be BACK with a whole new selection of fantastic guests in October. In the meantime, if you’ve enjoyed listening, please do rate and review us on iTunes. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for listening, and see you  in October!  How To Fail is hosted by Elizabeth Day and produced by Chris Sharp  How To Fail is sponsored by Moorish The Party by Elizabeth Day is published by 4th Estate  Social Media: Elizabeth Day @elizabdayDolly Alderton @dollyaldertonChris Sharp @chrissharpaudioMoorish @moorishhumous Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. Hosted by author and journalist Elizabeth Day, that's me. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. This week, our guest on How to Fail is, well, I'm almost terrified to say this,

but it's me. You might think it's because I've run out of fabulous interviewees or decided to give myself a week off, but rest assured that isn't the case. It struck me that I've spent the last few months asking people to open up and be vulnerable about their failures, so it was only fair that I put myself through the same process to see what it's like. My wonderful friend, fellow writer and podcast host Dolly Alderton has kindly agreed to help me turn the tables on myself, so with some trepidation because I am a natural control freak I am now handing over to her. I'm going to do an introduction that's going to cringe you out so much but I don't care. Elizabeth thank you so much for granting me permission to interview

you for your own podcast when we had our conversation I was so itching to ask you about your experiences so I'm so glad we can have that chat now. And I can grill you with all those questions now. I know everyone listening is already well aware of who you are. And as I said, I know you don't need an introduction, but I'm just going to give you one anyway, particularly as it pertains to my first question. Elizabeth, you were a columnist at the age of 12. Someone's gone on your Wikipedia page this morning. You went to Cambridge and received a double first. You went on to become a journalist for nearly all of Britain's broadsheets and won the accolade of Young Journalist of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards.

Dominic Lawson, who was editing The Telegraph when you first worked there, said of you, She is probably the most brilliant young talent that most of us have seen in 20 years you have continued to soar in journalism now particularly known for your fantastic front page profiles of public figures and celebrities as well as your first person features you've written four novels before the age of 40 the first of which won you the betty trask award for first novels written by writers under the age of 35. You are also impossibly charming and funny and warm. One of the most socially sensitive and confident people I've ever encountered. And every single friend I introduce you to without fail has fallen in love with you.

And you look like the product of a one night stand between Keira Knightley and Natalie Portman, and your skin glows with the radiance of 1,000 cherubs bare bottoms. A lot of people may look at you, who you are, and all you've achieved, and assume that this woman knows fuck all about failure. Oh, I love you. I love you so much. But I think it's important for you to address, I know you're too modest to admit this, but I think a lot of people would look at you and think, well, what does this person know about failure? How could she have ever failed at anything? How much has failure featured in your life? thank you for the question, because the question contains within it a massive compliment. But obviously, life feels different when you're living it and when you're inside it from how it's perceived from people who meet you outside only. And I would say that failure has been a big part of my life, but not a depressing part of it. So I've been through some stuff, but I genuinely feel and this was the genesis of the entire idea of the podcast, that that has made me a better person in that it's made me more self-aware.

It's made me more emotionally resilient. It's made me more in tune with who I really am, because I think for a long time I was slightly pretending to be someone else. And the more that I failed and the more that I've learned from it, the more that I've realized other people connect to that level of authenticity. So your introduction almost made me weep. But one of the things that you said was that I am confident. And I'm so delighted you said that because I don't feel confident, but I think I have learned the attributes of being confident. So I feel I can project that. And that in a way is half the glory of life is that you can spend years kind of pretending to be something, but then you flex that muscle so much that you actually end up being that thing. And I think as well, something

that I've always thought about you is that you're very good at understanding the fallibility in a person, no matter what they're projecting outwardly. And I think I don't think this is exclusive to people who've been through therapy. I think a lot of people have that innate ability. But I think that when you've come to understand your vulnerabilities and the disparity between who you are and who you want the world to be, you become so much more compassionate and patient with other people and their their hidden wounds definitely it's something that I really related to the first time that I met you because I think people who are deeply empathetic can sometimes also be extremely sensitive and can

feel like they're lacking a layer of skin and I definitely have felt that I've I'm very easily moved to tears um I take criticism very deeply I've learned how to deal with it because there's nothing like being a journalist for the Guardian so that's a cure here of that because maybe that's what I need maybe I need like a comment section shock therapy god it is it is hell but the interesting thing about that so I was a staff feature writer on the observer for eight years and anything I wrote whatever I wrote I would always get some incredibly negative and sort of personal personally slighting criticism online and in a way it was quite good because I thought oh I can't take this personally because it's literally anything I write I mean I could be saying one thing one week and

another thing the other week and someone somewhere would be really pissed off by it. Yeah. But I think the thing about being empathetic and in tune with others, it's an incredible gift for a writer and therefore I see it as the flip side of having thin skin. I would not want to sacrifice my thin skin

if it also meant sacrificing that fellow feeling that I think I do have for other people and I think that's one of the things that I love about being an interviewer in my day job both for newspapers magazines and for this podcast is that you get licensed to ask meaningful questions of people and And I really get off on that. Because you don't often get to do it just in the normal course of everyday life. Yes, it is legitimized nosiness. But that is, yes, a more brisk way of saying it. I was dressing it up.

But no, I'm very, very nosy. Yeah, but also I think the older I get, the more I realize that everyone carries pain every single person carries pain and some of it is visible and some of it isn't every single person has a catalogue of failures that they either talk about or they've buried very deep within them and I'm always fascinated Kirsty Young says and this will not be my first reference to Desert Island Discs in this conversation, obviously. Kirsty Young says that in her interviews, what she's trying to get to is the grit in the oyster. Yes, I love that quote. And I'm very open, as I know you are, about having done therapy.

And I have found it tremendously useful, not only as a means of understanding myself, but as a way of coping and understanding life. I increasingly feel that life is texture. That's one of the things I sort of keep saying to myself, because Truman Capote said that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. And I think, isn't that great? Someone tweeted that to me today, and it just really lodged in my head. And I do think you can't have one without the other. So you can't truly experience happiness unless you've also got the opposite which is having experienced and lived through and coped with sadness and I do think there is a lot to be learned from sadness as well and I think

in today's society a lot of us are so scared of it or so scared of admitting vulnerability or loneliness or failure and actually it's only by admitting it and being honest about it and allowing yourself to open up to it that you can truly experience the fullness of life you've um kind of touched on this but i think you and i one of the reasons we bonded so quickly is we both are massive people pleasers and we both suffer from the affliction of desperately wanting everyone's approval and that's for me still something I'll kind of try and fight against every day the nice way of looking at it is that it is about empathy I also do think that there's a bit that's about insecurity obviously but more and more I think a

huge amount of it is about control yeah and I'm so interested in the fact that you said control freak in that introduction because I wondered I'm definitely a control freak which is part of the people pleasing and everyone has to like me and I have to be in control of everyone's thoughts about me and I have to do as much as I can to monitor what everyone's impression of me is I wonder as a control freak, failure is kind of the worst thing for someone who relishes being in control. Yes, it's so true that thing about people pleasing because it comes with lots of selfless elements. But it's also, for me, probably a form of insecure narcissism. Yes. Because it's like, oh, if I can shore up my own lack of belief in myself,

with lots of other people saying nice things, I'll be fine. And actually, that never really works. I'm getting better. And I'm not as much of a control freak as I used to be. But definitely part of the reason I love writing books, and part of the reason I've loved doing the podcast is because it's an element of my life over which I have a degree of creative control that I don't get in journalism. So in a very, very obvious way, I am in control of a narrative when I write a novel. And in my normal life, with all its kind of messy incongruities and difficulties, you're not in control of the narrative. And that's taken me a really long time to learn yeah and I think the reason I'm less of a people pleaser now is purely because of stuff I failed at and the fact I'm older so there is nothing better for getting rid of the people pleasing gene than being divorced

really yeah maybe it's something I should try I I mean, you have to get married first, which I wouldn't necessarily cancel. But I got married at the age of 33. And we were married for three years. We'd been together for seven, all in all. And I was the one who left. I don't want to talk about the marriage itself, because that's a story that involves two people. And my assessment will only ever be subjective and one-sided.

But I was the one who left and that came with so much shame and guilt attached to it. And I remember one of the things that I was most ashamed of, which sounds ludicrous, is that my parents had contributed financially to the wedding. I was very grateful for that. And I was like, oh God, should I pay back the money? I feel so bad that you have this big day and you're wearing a floor-length white dress. And you walk down an aisle and you make these vows and everyone is there for you and everyone buys presents off your wedding list. And then you have to stand up and say, I thought I knew myself, but I didn't. And leaving that relationship was an extraordinarily difficult thing for me, for both of us.

And it brought me face to face with the fact that there were going to be some people who really disliked me because quite rightly there are some people who are on the other person's side and who are their friends and then there's the other person who might not understand your reasons and you just have to deal with it and I did and I was like thrown into that and for the first time I knew that there were people who actually didn't like me but the way that I managed to get through that was not only with the help of my amazing best friend Emma who just so happens to be a psychotherapist which is the best combination in the world but by realizing that I knew the truth

so like I knew the truth as it pertained to me. And if someone else chose not to like me, it's because they didn't have the full story. And I was sort of okay with it. It's because they didn't actually know me. And so that was the way that I got through that. And now I'm a little bit better. But I find it really difficult. I know we've spoken about this.

I find it really difficult with dating. I've had periods of being single and I've done periods of being single and I've done the whole like online thing and it's really difficult not to take it personally when someone doesn't text you back and I'm not I yeah it's like that's a tricky thing to get over and everyone says oh but you shouldn't take it personally you shouldn't take it as personal rejection and it's just that they're not the right person for you but I'm like but I want everyone to think that I'm the right person for them. I want to be relentlessly perfect

so that no one ever has a chance to leave me. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. And I think something that's really helped me is realising that there are loads of people in life, either who I've been on a Tinder date with or who I've sat opposite in a conference room in a meeting or at a dinner party. And I've thought, there's nothing wrong with a meeting or at a dinner party and I've thought

there's nothing wrong with this person at all they're just not for me there's not objectively there's nothing wrong with them yeah they are pleasant or they're funny or that I can see that they may be for other people but they're not for me and I think the minute you can have the humility to recognize that you've thought that about other people and therefore everyone is totally within their right to think that about you then you can move through life with a new kind of lightness with when you encounter people rather than taking it as this huge failure yeah well this leads very nicely on to your first failure which is your failure at saying goodbye to people, particularly relationships. This comes from a very specific and very tragic experience that you had. Can you tell me about it?

Yeah, this is something that I don't talk about very much. But because I knew that we were doing this, it felt really important for me to talk about honestly, but also as a way of kind of paying tribute to someone who otherwise would risk being forgotten. So I had a boyfriend called Rich Wild, which is the best name ever. And we met at university and started going out at university and then carried on going out for about a year after we graduated. And we were in our early 20s and it was at that time when no one really knows who they are. He was doing lots of different things and sort of struggling to find his way a bit and I'd started to become a journalist and we split up. And six months after we broke up, he decided he wanted to go to Iraq as a freelance journalist.

I got invited to his leaving party and I chose not to go because I felt like it would be awkward. And I don't have a lot of regrets in my life. In fact, I don't have any, but that is a regret. So apart from that single one, because two weeks after he left, he got killed by a sniper shot covering a story and he was outside the National Museum of Baghdad. And it was horrific for his family, for his friends. He was an exceptional person. He had such a bright future ahead of him. He was really, really amazing. He was the person who would, at a party, spend hours talking to someone who didn't know anyone else in a really interested and sincere way and I'm very lucky that I got to

have that time with him yeah but that is one of the most formative experiences of my life actually and how old were you when it happened 23 and he was 24 so it happened in 2003 and this year he would have been 40 in September it happened in July and every July that comes around I do go slightly I think your body kind of remembers stuff and I think about him a lot I sort of wanted to talk about him just as a person but also because I realized that it made me very worried about losing people that I loved and I wish that I'd had the maturity, first of all, to understand more about him as a person and how he was trying to find his way. And I'd been less impatient with that. Although obviously I was young too, so I didn't have that kind of maturity. And it's an

impossible thing to say. But I feel that if we'd met then in the normal course of events a year down the line, we would have re-established a friendship and got on incredibly well. And he would still be in my life. But I didn't get that chance. And so after that, I now realised that what happened was I became very panicked about losing people who were close to me, particularly boyfriends. And I was in a relationship at the time. And we broke up, not as a result of that, I was in a relationship at the time and we broke up, not as a result of that, it was about a year later we broke up, and I just hated the thought of not being in touch with this particular ex anymore. And so I'd come up with excuses to see him, like, I think you've still got my laptop that I don't need anymore because I got a new one,

but still you need to give it back to me, and this sort of stuff because I was so panicked that he would die is that what you it was as simple as that it was a fear that he would die it was that and it was also what we've just touched on which is like how dare you have split up from me and feel okay with it and not think that I'm like the most perfect person ever. Like it was that thing as well. It was that level of insecurity. And then I think that that has had a knock on effect in the sense that I get quite panicked at the notion of being abandoned or saying goodbye, particularly romantically. And I think that that has possibly kept me in relationships that instinctively I've known are not right for far too long. That and the people pleasing thing. So I spent all of my 20s in a series of long term relationships that I would

actually describe as kind of mini marriages. I mean, from the age of 19 to the age of 36, I was single for two months, maybe. And actually, I was only single because I'd split up with one boyfriend, then we got back together. So it was a sort of interesting period of time. And actually, I was only single because I'd split up with one boyfriend, then we got back together. So it was a sort of interesting period of time. And I'm not sure that I would advise people spending their 20s like that, because I had loads of responsibility, but with none of the joy that came from completely being on someone's team and getting that through an actual marriage, for instance. And I think I just took it all a bit too seriously. But I'm also aware that by not doing so,

those experiences have made me who I am and have given me a level of insight into what I now want from a relationship that I might not have had otherwise. But yes, particularly because, and this leads us on to another failure of mine, particularly because those were I mean that's what society tells me were my most fertile years and I don't have children and I feel that is a

kind of loss and I hope that it's not always going to be the case and I hope that I can still be a mother and that there are myriad forms of being a mother, not least the fact that I've got nine godchildren. I'm just extremely smug about that. Which I think you should be. Thank you. It's either a sign of a very well-loved woman or the sign of a woman who spends money very freely. Yes, or the sign of an investor at People Pleaser who'll be good for work experience when they're 18. Exactly. No, it's a lovely thing that.

But it was so interesting because I was really serious about each of the relationships. But I also felt like, oh, well, if this one doesn't work out, then I'll find the real one and the one I meant to be with and that will work out. And did you always have that sort of confidence? Yes, but it was mistaken. And it was a a shallow confidence because I'd been weaned, as many of us were, on a diet of romantic comedies and novels that always ended, you know, Jane Austen novels. And I think that there was such a narrative when I was growing up of happiness being a heterosexual relationship, where at the end of the film, you end up together and then you move in together and then you're married and then there's like a happy video montage. And there weren't that many alternative realities. One of

the things that I've loved witnessing in the time that I've been a journalist, so I'm now 39 and I've been a journalist for 17 years, is the incredible diversity of outlook that is now embraced. And we've still got a way to go. But that's a wonderful, wonderful thing that I think so many more voices are being heard. Because when I grew up in the 80s, it was quite monocultural, particularly because I grew up in rural Ireland. And yeah, and I think I just thought, well, I need to, and it's interesting, actually, again, my best friend said this to me, when I was one of the relationships that didn't work out, that she felt that too much of my head, like if my head was a pie chart, too much of it, too big a proportion was taken up with my romantic relationships and not enough with getting fulfillment of work. I love what I do. I've had amazing opportunities. And it's an incredible privilege to make a living from writing, literally from like pushing a pen across a page or typing

on screen. And I feel proud of the stuff that I've achieved, some of it anyway. And it is quite weird to me that I think I still have that as well. I still feel like if the person I'm romantically involved with doesn't text me to reassure me that they are thinking of me at any given time, I can be like tipped into a slough to spawn that is completely disproportionate. Yeah, but I think we have to be forgiving of ourselves for that because I had that with the last bloke that I was dating. I remember being very connected to that reality in my head and finding it I was I really faced it head on where I was like this is a man I don't know that well and I really feel like whether my day is going to be good or bad and the whole physical feeling of my body is dependent on whether he

rings me back or not and I remember ringing my friend India in floods of tears being like this is just not normal I should not I wouldn't hinge that on a friend I wouldn't hinge that on a family member and she said yeah but I have exactly the same and I think we have to be forgiving because as you said it's like we've been sent these signals from the age of dot from everything that we've consumed and I think it's a biological imperative for a lot of us that we have no control over that we are made to think that this is the most important thing yeah I'm glad India feels that too I think I think so many women feel that and it doesn't mean I think it's important to recognize that and because then you can start dismantling it yeah do you know what I mean I think also it's that thing of past experience leading to future

projection so that sense that I've been hurt and badly let down in the past but I need to let go of that and not assume that that's going to happen in the future I mean obviously you've got to wise up to yourself and the part that you've had to play in it but by being cognizant of that and hopefully making different decisions you probably end up with a different kind of person who isn't going to do that well this is exactly what I was going to say next is when you were talking about rich and you were saying i wish that i'd been at a point where i had the emotional maturity to be able to say x y and z to him or be there for him in this way or asking these questions or even when you said i wish that

our culture makes me think maybe i lost these years of fertility to these relationships that didn't work I think it's a really dangerous game to play that because that the whole point is like alternate realities don't exist yeah so this was the only way that I was able to get over a death in the last few years is that I read this um Sugar column and it was about a man who had lost his son and his son was 18 and died in a car crash and he said he just kept thinking about what would he have been like as a 19-year-old, the years ticked by, as I'm sure you do every July,

what would he have been like as a 40-year-old? And she said, you have to accept that this life is not sliding doors. There isn't an alternate reality where this stuff is happening with a different Elizabeth. Yeah. That was the truth. That was that person's life. And I think it's the same with relationships. Like there isn't another world where you could have met the man that you were going to marry and have children with at that young age because you didn't meet him. Like you only get this reality. Yeah. I love that. That's actually really comforting.

didn't meet him like you only get this reality yeah I love that that's actually really comforting it's really true and actually there were really wonderful things that came out of Rich's death as I'm sure you experience with your grief over Florence which is again one of the reasons that Dolly's book Everything I Know About Love spoke so deeply to me because you talk so movingly about that and you write so movingly about it. But you know, when Rich died, his friends got together. We had this amazing, I guess it was a sort of wake. One of his friends masterminded putting together like a book of memories. We all feel very connected because of it we all got to speak about how wonderful he was I wrote about him I was at the Sunday Telegraph at the time and they paid me for the piece and it didn't feel right to be paid so I put the money into history prizes old school and so there's that

that's like in his name that will continue and it was really yeah it was really important to me that his name continued to be heard and known. And in terms of my work as well, I get really fed into my second novel. I wrote a book called Home Fires and it was about, it was about grief. I mean, it's still a good read, guys. But it was, yeah, if the beach is Dunkirk, I've made that joke before. it was about yeah if the beach is Dunkirk I've made that joke before and in terms of the legacy that it's left with your failure to say goodbye to relationships have you as you've got older you mentioned that you've learned to kind of trust and sharpen your instincts more definitely instinct is such an interesting thing to talk about because it's

really hard to tune back into I think we're all born with it but because we live in a society where we're constantly connected to screens and there's so much going on and there's so much white noise that actually it's really hard to dial down the volume on that and just think well how do I feel yeah not what would someone who I would like to be feel a hundred percent yeah how do I feel does my breath feel free do I feel like to be feel? A hundred percent. How do I feel? Does my breath feel free? Do I feel settled? Do I feel calm?

Because if you don't feel those things, and if you don't feel safe, that's the number one thing that I've learned. If you don't feel safe in a relationship and you're scared about triggering someone's anger, you need to get out of that relationship. Because that is not healthy for you. For me, that's not healthy for me.

I've got much, much better at that now. And I genuinely feel failures have led me to know myself for the first time. And it was so interesting because when I got divorced, I thought, you know, that's one of the hardest things I've ever had to deal with. I thought, oh, I really like I've reached rock bottom. I know myself. I've been through some stuff. I've got through this. I've reached rock bottom. I know myself. I've been through some stuff. I've got through this.

But actually, I then got into another relationship. It was a two-year-long relationship with a wonderful person who happened to be nine years younger than me. And when that relationship broke up, actually, that's when I hit rock bottom. I had six weeks that were really, really tough and dark because I had been using that relationship probably as emotional scaffolding so we all we all do it it's a tale as old as you know it's that delayed grief basically yeah and then it's so much worse oh my god it's awful and I remember emailing you in the depths of it and you were so lovely it's just like it's the scaffolding that means you can avoid looking at the destructed building yeah yeah it's just um but having said that I'm so glad it happened and that's the weird thing is like you can be in the

depths of despair and then you can come through it and be like I'm really grateful for that because I've actually I really have learned a fuckload and now I do think I feel much stronger one of the things I'm actually proud of although although it has caused me heartbreak, is being open-hearted. Yes, you are. And throwing, not throwing, but like I don't feel embittered by love or cynical or any of that.

I'm really glad about that. I'm really glad that I can still see and beauty and stuff and hope and optimism. And I do think that's really important to allow yourself to be vulnerable to that I mean it's terrifying yeah but it is where the good stuff lies it really is and it's hard well this is nothing I was going to ask you about the instinct thing about you have this fear that you have a failure to end things when they should end something that I've found difficult as you get older is the message that I get over and over again about long-term love is long-term love you

know it's not all flowers and romance and happiness and actually it's just a lot of hard graft and maybe it's not even that fun and it's just sort of friends that get on and you know and actually I think it what muddies your instincts a bit as you get older is you're like, am I just asking for too much? You know, so it's quite a tension, I think, as you get older to be practical and realistic about what love can be, but also to trust when it's not right. I know, it's a nightmare. And I don't know what the answer is really. Well, life not looking exactly how you imagined it to be, perhaps, is a nice way to move on to, I don't want to say your second failure. That's fine, Gail.

I really do not want to say that. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History,

a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second, then join me, Hunter Harris, and me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mass, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when.

You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free

by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. But the second story that we're going to talk about is your experiences with trying to conceive. Can you tell me about that? Yes. So I just always thought I was going to have children um I think all women have yeah I think so too and I always thought I was going to have two because that's I'm one of two and so when I got married I well okay so I was I was typical in the in my 20s well when I went to university I went on the pill and then I just didn't come off it for like 14 years because it was convenient and you were in all these mini marriages I was in all these mini marriages actually I had to be responsible Doddy it's

different between you and I I think I've been on the pill for a maximum of 18 months of my life so smart because although there is no medical evidence to back this up I do think that there is something about I wasn't in tune with my natural cycles and it took a while for it to regulate sorry for any men who are listening who are freaked out by this kind of menstruation chats let's not be freaking out let's own it let's claim the tampon anyway so hashtag so when it came to trying to conceive it didn't happen for me naturally and so then at that stage I was 33 and it didn't happen for two years and then I had various investigations and they found out that there was probably nothing wrong but there was something that might have affected it and so on and so forth but infertility is like such an

inexact science no one actually has a clue they can try lots of different things but sometimes it's just extremely inexplicable so I ended up having two cycles of IVF back to back and that was a really bad idea and that was partly to do with being a perfectionist and being a control freak and being like this is how I imagine life being and I'm just going to take it on and I'm going to do it. And I'm not going to complain. And I'm not going to make a fuss. And actually IVF is extremely challenging to go through, especially if you're working full time as I was. It's basically like having another job. You go in every two days for scans to have bloods taken. You have to inject yourself with hormones. The hormones have an

impact on how you feel and your mood. And you're constantly being kind of prodded. There's one procedure called the scratch, where your womb lining is literally scratched in order to stimulate it. And it was so painful, I fainted on the hospital gurney. I mean, and then cycled back from the hospital. I mean, that's how mental I was. Sorry to use that language. That's how unbalanced my life had become. And those two cycles failed, even though I got to the final stage. And it did sometimes feel like that, like it was a kind of game show. I had one egg the first time that fertilised and was implanted,

and then two the second time, but they didn't stick. That's the terminology. And then I entered a period of feeling quite depressed about it. Understandably. Yeah. I felt that actually I probably had to let that dream go. And I was still married then. And it was a tough time because the consultant was like,

I don't really know why this isn't happening. And, you know, it depends how much more money you want to spend at it because I had to pay for it. I was a stepmother and stepmothers don't get IVF free on the NHS so everyone else is entitled to three cycles of a certain age which is a really interesting thing there's a whole other discussion to be had about whether that kind of thing should be allowed on the NHS anyway I then got pregnant naturally a few months after that and that was so unexpected and it was like a massive shock to the system and then I miscarried at three months after I'd had a scan showing it to be healthy and there

was a heartbeat and everything and it was really tough I was in hospital over a weekend and uh uh miscarriage is really tough and I didn't realize it at the time and um I was just still kind of getting on with life and not allowing it to affect me and actually the effects were only felt some months after that and yeah it was tough and I think you know over the course of that single year I technically been pregnant three times so there was a lot of hormonal stuff going down and yeah all of that kind of was difficult to deal with and then after shortly after that my marriage broke down this story does get better and then I just went away I needed to like have a complete change and I went to live in LA for three months and it was amazing for me because there were lots of women of a

similar age of mine who were living different kinds of lives who didn't necessarily have children but also people older mothers who did have children and LA is at the forefront actually of all sorts of fertility medicine so it kind of opened my eyes the fact that there were different lives available and there are different kind of motherhoods available and that's been something I am reconciled to but I think it's a great unfairness to women a great biological unfairness because I think the one thing that would strike out so much sexism and gender imbalance at a single strike would be if men had the biological capacity to bear children because ultimately like in a relationship I'm always the one carrying the burden of well I'm of a certain age now so if I want to try and I know it hasn't been easy for me in relationship, I'm always the one carrying the burden of, well, I'm of a certain age now. So

if I want to try, and I know it hasn't been easy for me in the past, I'm going to have to do it in this window. And I don't like having that. That's really annoying to me. I would love to allow things to just progress at their pace. But I'm aware that I have a certain window that's now coming to an end. And I don't want to have the regret of not having allowed myself the chance to try so that's a really long answer to your question and yeah no well something that I'm surprised that you say that you that you still feel that sort of panic which I understand and and I to be totally frank and I hope this doesn't sound insensitive I also live in fear of at some point in my life but the reason it surprises me is that when we talk about it

you seem to me to be much more accepting of it and much more open to a number of inevitabilities but is it something that still weighs down on you? Yeah to be honest. Yeah, I'm definitely more at peace with it. But it still weighs down on me. And I think a lot of what I project is a degree of front to make it easier for myself, but also for the person talking to me. Because sometimes people will ask me if I have children, people I've only just met, because it's a sort of small talk thing that you do. And for me to get into it is a huge emotional tale. One wonderful thing about it is that it's really exciting to be part of a group of women. And it's like the first generation where I feel it's much more socially acceptable, although not entirely, because I still think it's perceived societally as a kind of failure when a woman doesn't have a child, like, what's

wrong with you? But much more so that negative and completely unfounded viewpoint is being eradicated. And it is amazing. I've made incredible friends with women also living unconventional lives. And there is an enormous amount of liberation that comes from it. And I can choose how to live. And I'm constantly being told by well-meaning friends of mine with children you know oh we're so we live vicariously through you and but I think it's that thing of like also being a writer and being fundamentally nosy I don't want to be excluded from this singular life experience that everyone tells me is just completely unique and I don't want to miss that opportunity and I just feel like I would be a good mother yeah it weighs on me but not necessarily in a bad way and I remember reading something that Elizabeth Gilbert

wrote I love Elizabeth Gilbert I didn't read Eat Pray Love for ages because the title really annoyed me and I thought it was just going to be like a cringe worthy self-help book and then I actually read it when my marriage was imploding and it was unbelievably helpful it was like she was just in my head I actually think it was an interview with Oprah on the Super Soul Sunday podcast and she was saying it was actually a real relief when she got to the stage at like 45 where she's like okay well that's it I'm not going to have children I can stop worrying about it because there's no longer an option and I sort of get that because I think it's the fact that there's still a sliver of option a couple of years ago I froze my eggs

although I think that that can sometimes offer a degree of false hope but I suppose I just want to have tried it and thrown everything at it to be fully at peace with myself and if you don't mind answering I'm interested in how it has been since you've had this extraordinary experience and you went through this horrific physical experience for a year. As you said, it's a very emotional tale and it must be a huge part of you and something you carry. To then go out dating, was it something that you were open about or is it something that you kept to yourself? Yeah, that's such a good question. I was open about is it or is it something that you kept to yourself yeah that's such a good question I was open about it so I don't know about you but I find it really easy to be like strong and know exactly what I want in like the first month of dating so the first two dates I'm like well this is me so you just need to get with the program

buster not that I ever say buster but that's why they ghosted you Elizabeth you said buster no I know what you mean because because the whole point is that the relationship is so abstract as an idea exactly you can just throw all these things on you don't care enough like you don't you haven't you haven't caught the feels as they say in love island so there was this guy that I was dating in LA who was a TV studio boss and he'd sort of pursued me and I wasn't that into him and he was like he had two kids already he was like oh how do you feel about kids I was like I definitely want kids he was like oh I had a vasectomy like two years ago and I was like well this isn't gonna work then and then it kind of ended and then in a way actually

that was this that was a single example of it then being really fun because then there was no pressure attached like neither of us thought we were going to end up together. And so it's kind of just fun. And honest. And honest and like, yeah. Then when I started like dating online, then there's like a question in lots of the profiles, which is like, do you want children? So it was kind of easy.

I was like, yes, I do. And I'm not interested in anyone who doesn't sort of thing. But I said, oh, I see. I think that's okay. I've now, when I was younger I think I would have been much more like guys just let's keep things open and let's just vibe with each other and see what happens whereas now I think the thing that I hadn't anticipated about I'm turning 30 next month thing I hadn't anticipated about dating as you get older

is that feeling of being like a time millionaire when you're younger you really feel that when it comes to dating so now if you meet someone you're like I'm not sure if they're quite right or maybe I don't want to date a penniless musician or a Tory or like maybe maybe like I don't want to date someone who's not interested in kids or maybe like maybe I could convert to Judaism if he's only going to marry a Jewish girl whatever like when you're younger you can just noodle about with it. Completely. And you're just like, I'm just going to kick it about for a few months.

And, hey, it's a good story and we'll have some fun sex and maybe we'll fall in love, maybe we won't. But then we'll say goodbye and wish each other well. And then you just, like, that freedom goes when you date when you're old. You're like, I don't have time to noodle about with a person. Yeah, Thai millionaire is such a great phrase. It's so true. of time to noodle about with a person yeah time millionaire is such a great phrase it's so true and the other thing that I've learned is who are these men who just think that they're entitled to a woman's ovaries at the time that suits them like actually what I was offering to a succession of

people was to bear their child and to be a good mother like that is a fucking gift okay i have enough and it's an advert now yeah it's what it is and i can guarantee you i can guarantee you i know many men who will be front of the queue but you know what i mean i'm like yeah this is not a negative thing no this is an amazing offer and it really upsets me now looking back because I know that there are so many great men who see it as that who see it as an adventure that they're going to do together and obviously like that it's going to be hard but it's also going to be completely wonderful and you're going to do it together and isn't that magical and rather than some psycho woman demanding something of your time in life

stealing something from me and then someone saying I'm not ready I mean okay you're not ready so when you do reach this mythical point of being ready by the way no one ever feels ready for anything when you do reach this mythical point you think then that you are going to meet the perfect woman who is going to be available to get pregnant for you or what you're saying is when I'm ready I'll just meet someone and it doesn't really matter if I compromise and either way I think that's really shitty I'm like take your opportunities where you get them yeah and is it something now that you would say to women who are single and who are out dating and who know that this is

something that they want in their life maybe not tomorrow but in the future in the next few years would you advise that it's something to not be embarrassed about and to be kind of open up front about yes I guess I would which is easy for me to say because I wasn't. But because I failed at being that honest, that's why I can say I think it's a good idea. But I would also countenance against, I remember when I was getting divorced, someone, not one of my friends actually, but someone saying to me, if you really want a child, just stay with him and get pregnant, have a child, and then deal with the rest of it afterwards, I think is terrible advice really bad terrible terrible terrible advice because what I what I've actually realized is that for me personally having a functional

loving relationship is more important to me at this moment in time than having a child. Because I could go out there if I had a visceral need and urge to have a baby, I could go out there and do it on my own. And I'm not willing to do that. That's I don't, that's for me is not where my happiness lies, I don't think. And I know many women who've done it. And I have nothing but admiration for them. I think they're amazing, strong superheroes. And I'm just not there yet. I I think they're amazing, strong superheroes. And I'm just not there yet. I don't know whether I'll get there. But for me, it's the relationship that's important and maybe having a baby within that.

So I would never advise someone just to have a baby at any cost and make the most of your beautiful young ovaries now and all that kind of stuff. And I also I would never advise that. And I also think that sometimes we can know too much. We're lucky enough to live in this time where there've been so many advances in all kinds of medical science, that so many examinations and tests can be done, that often we know like everything. We know that we don't have a great egg reserve, or we know that our anti-malarian hormone is too low or too high. And actually, my grandmother had her first child at 36 and had various things that she didn't have a clue

that there were various things that were going wrong. And then it just kind of happened for her. And it's not that I'm some Luddite who's saying that we should all go and live in some Amish community where there's no TV and no paracetamol. It's just that sometimes I think too much knowledge can make you overly anxious. And I'm also a big believer now in just letting things be, trying to be relaxed,

following your instinct, and believing in serendipity. But also, it's just so, I don't know if it's maybe I'm just at an age where everyone around me is trying for a baby. It's just prolific everywhere. I'm hearing stories of couples struggling or couples going through IVF or miscarriages or missed miscarriages or stillbirth you know I remember listening to Emma Thompson's Desert Island Discs there we go there's the second desert I just mentioned and she had struggles with conceiving and she said that she's a very private person but for her it was so vital and so not embarrassing to talk about it because she used this phrase said it's a shared problem I love that so much and I completely agree and it's part

of the reason that you know I do a lot of celebrity interviews and I did one recently with Nicole Kidman and I knew that she was an older mother and she had adopted two children with her former husband Tom Cruise and I knew that I wanted to ask her about it. And I'm so glad I did because even though it is such a personal question, I felt that coming at it from a position where I shared some of my story, which I did with her and she was so amazing. She's such a woman's woman. And I, it was a really great interview in that respect, but I'm so glad I asked her about it because she was like, I really want to talk about this for the sake of other women. And she had had ectopic pregnancies and had been told that she'd never conceive. And then she met Keith Urban and got pregnant at 40

and had her first biological baby at 41. And then her second baby by surrogate. And I just love stories like that. And I really do think that in sharing comes power for women yes in so many things from the me too movement onwards it's about openness and honesty and realizing that other people are fighting the same battle as you and you're not alone and there's such immense solidarity that comes from not feeling shame attached to it and is that why it has been important for you to share your story because you've written very beautifully and very openly and very vividly about your experiences with yeah thank you yes exactly that's exactly why I wanted to talk about it although I was aware at some point I was like

the telegraph kept asking me to write about like every time there's a story about miscarriages or fertility you know like, let's get our miscarriage correspondent. And I did think I don't want to become I don't want to become the Liz Jones of infertility. So I sort of dialed it back a bit. But yes, that is why that is the impetus. And generally speaking, I find and I don't know if you find this as well. But when I am honest, I mean, I'm always honest when I do journalism journalism but most a lot of my journalism for ages wasn't about me in fact I didn't start writing personal pieces until I left the observer three years ago it was a revelation to me that when I was honest about my experience not only did the writing of it come more easily yes but I had an overwhelming response from people with whom that writing connected.

And that is why I write. It's why I write novels and it's why I write journalism, is to connect with people. You feel close to other people. Yes. And there's something so beautiful about that. It's not like I'm trying. So when I write those pieces, I'm not trying to write something beautiful. I'm not trying to have a clever turn of phrase or to show how lyrical I can be. I am writing something from the heart and there's almost no barrier between me and

the page. And then that's where people have most response. And that I think is a very important lesson for me in life, that authenticity is the greatest tool of communication. One of the things that I really learned from having undergone various fertility procedures is that a lot of the language around fertility is the language of failure and it's very male dominated. So in my experience, I was always treated by a male consultant who would always say things to me like, you're failing to respond to the drugs. And I remember talking to my dear friend Fran about it and I was like oh I'm failing to respond to these drugs and she said maybe it's not you that's

failing maybe it's the drugs that are failing you maybe it's the medical science that's failing you and why isn't it pitched that way and it was sort of revelatory to me I was like oh you're so right yeah he should march in and say the drugs have failed you and I'm so sorry the drugs don't work stupid drugs that's the verb sign but exactly but I think then that removes so much of your own personal burden and torment it's like oh it's not my failure and I don't want to sound too much like a hippie although what's wrong with that so you're in the right house I know but I do think that everything happens for a reason. And I do believe that the universe is unfolding exactly as is intended.

That isn't a quote from me. That's a quote from, it's called Desiderata, and it's a prose poem by Max Ehrman. The des made me think you were going to say a Desiree song. Or a Dizzy Rascal. A Dizzy Rascal song. Or Des Island Discs, which you're about to get really excited about. It's a beautiful line. Yeah, I love it. i actually read it on the back of a loo door there was this whole poem it was a

really random it was a tea room in ditchling i remember exactly where it was and i read this poem i was like oh my room in ditchling well that was the first weekend i had away with my ex boyfriend and we just went to stay in a pub in Ditchling that I'd found online. And we had this really random day that, you know, when you first go away with someone, it's actually like, you just spend your entire time being a torment of internal anxiety. Oh, it's so stressful. That first weekend away is so stressful.

It's like, when do I go to the loo? Can you go out of the room while I go? But it's also like pretending to be relaxed and up for everything. And just constantly being like, what are you thinking? Like,

internal monologue, what's he thinking? He hates me. Why aren't we speaking? Why don't we have loads to talk about? Anyway, so we went to this tea room

and I went to the loo and I was in this torment of internal anxiety and I read this prose poem and I was like, the universe is unfolding exactly as it's intended. So I'm just going to surrender my control freak natures I'm just going to surrender to it and anyway I didn't but I that's what I aspire to do I've spotted a nice neat

segue opportunity for me here Elizabeth when you were on this weekend away did you do any outdoor activities nice I see what you've done there. Dolly, no, because one of my failures is that I have been rubbish at team sport all of my life. I also love that your note to me was that people assume that you'll be good at them because you're tall. Yes, it's such a weird thing. People have always assumed I'm good at tennis. When I was at university, it was assumed I'd be good at rowing because I'm tall. I mean, it's just bizarre. And in a way, I find it really annoying that I'm not. Because logically, I feel there's no reason why I shouldn't be good at tennis.

Because it is a matter of like connecting a racket to a ball. And I should be able to do that. But I'm just a terrible, terrible failure at that. So basically, when I was growing up, my mother always said to me, you must learn tennis. This makes me sound so posh and so privileged and so entitled.

Why was tennis the particular thing for her? It's because she felt it was a very social sport. And I don't know why. I hate tennis. Oh my God. But I think she had this like lovely vision of kind of tennis parties and cucumber sandwiches and kind of freshly mown lawns and and I've never been a miss Joan Hunter Dunn exactly I've never been invited to a tennis

party in my life but tennis party it's a lovely idea but I just just doesn't exist sadly and um oh my god my poor mother so she was really wanting me to be good at tennis and I had tennis lessons and I was always rubbish and then I was rubbish at school I was rubbish at all sport I was rubbish at hockey I was okay at netball because I'm tall yeah that was the only place which what did you play goal attack or goal defense is the worst because I liked wing attack sometimes if I was a vac but I wasn't very fast I was rubbish at sports day and I think part of the reason I hate that kind of sport is because I feel really on display and I feel like I'm letting loads of people down it's your people pleaser thing exactly again

yeah god it is yeah I think maybe it's just one of those things that so many other people seem to bond over and be good at so I think it's part of that thing of not belonging to a group. And also I think I'm actually very competitive. Are you? At the same time as feeling really insecure if I lose, which is a bad combination. And that's what it is, I think, is that it's like, I feel incredibly frustrated with myself when I do something badly and how are you with teams how are you with collaboration and team sport and camaraderie because I'm terrible at it and I actively hate it and I used to pretend I was much more into team stuff yeah than I was because I think it made me look like I had a sort of sunny disposition and I

was easy to get along with but I think most writers I know basically don't like yeah I'm the same operating in a team I hate teams there are nice things about working in the office but I hate office politics and I think it's because I am a natural introvert who has trained herself into being a convincing extrovert. Oh, I'm sorry. So I know you are. I can tell. And so at a party, I can be great. Like, I know how to make small talk. I know how to connect with people.

Parties can be really fun. But a lot of the time, I find them quite exhausting. That kind of public performative role is quite draining. And I need to then restore and replenish and I have time on my own and for that reason I really dislike hen do's I really I mean I love you know I I have an amazing friends and I love spending time with my friends but hen do is so often a bride bringing together disparate elements of her life and so you're hanging out with this group of women and you don't really know them that well but you've all got to be having such a great time and you've all got to be like hammered and like

making jokes and like just being the life and soul and i'm just like oh but that's again that's like a forced and fake team sport yes Yes. A hen do, really. It's the falsity of it. You're right. I want genuine connection. That's exactly what it is, which is why I can have a lovely holiday with genuine friends or people who I genuinely have a connection with

and I know that there's going to be, like, one-on-one time and there are going to be good conversations around a dinner table. I don't like the superficial jollity. Sound like a right laugh don't invite Elizabeth to your hen do and in terms of the team sport thing as you've got older have there been moments where you've thought oh I just wish I was good at this like have there been moments where you still feel that kind of school alienation no because now when people say do you like skiing do you want to go on a ski holiday I'm like no yeah I actually feel completely confident in myself I know myself enough that I don't want to put myself in that situation a holiday for me is not getting up at

7am being cold and not stopping for lunch because you want to make the most of the beasts I know that's I want to lie on a sun lounger and read five books an hour. Yeah. And the other thing that has helped with that is that I have discovered it's not that I dislike exercise. It is that I dislike the team aspect of it. Well, I was going to say you do a lot of exercise, don't you? But you just don't do it on your own. Yes. No one else is invited. Actually, the best thing for me is I've got into spinning lately.

So going to a spin class where you are essentially on your own but in a group of people but everyone's doing their individual thing but you sort of ride as a team and I love the like loud music aspect of it and I get a sense of immense achievement from that and satisfaction and the other thing that I've realized is so important for me about exercise so I do yoga as well, is because as a writer, I spend so much time in my own head that I need a means of getting back in touch with my own body. And that's why it's necessary. And I think it's been really good for my mental health. And actually coming out of my marriage, when I was going through a divorce, I suddenly started

running for the first time. I'd always hated running. That was the other thing that people assume I'm good at as well. Running. Oh, a good run I'm like why this is such a compliment though I think people look at me and think do you know what that girl is good at eating fettuccine that is complete nonsense they look at you and they're like what's that girl good at looking super hot at all times in any given scenario quite an athletic come on come on you do you do you do exercise a lot don't you I do like I exercise most days yeah that's a lot man is that okay I didn't this weekend at all um because I was extremely hungover but I do and it's partly because of that thing I said like it makes me feel better yeah and if I'm spending a whole day thinking and writing the best way for me to start it off is actually doing a burst of exercise

and I really try and do it in the mornings to get it over with yes and then it sets you up for the day and you can spend the rest of the day not feeling guilty about stuff but it has it's actually something that's become much more important to me the older I've got. I didn't exercise in my 20s at all. I mean, nothing, nothing. And now I'm really glad that I've found it in a way because it is that thing about strength. It's made me feel internally stronger. I wonder how much of this is just your inherent competitive nature

where you're thinking, fine, you conquered me but I'm gonna conquer yoga so much of it is that totally I'm actually embarrassed to admit how much of it is that and also because it's scenarios because yoga is so like not meant to be competitive but every single class I'll be like yeah I see you and I own you at warrior two and I was like I'm stopping such a dick you know I think you'd be amazed at how many girls that would have been centre when they played netball who were secretly competitive watch people's downward-facing dogs and think that. Completely.

Do you know, a really big reason I became a journalist was because I felt like I never fitted in at school and I wanted to show the people who'd be mean to me. I wanted to show them that I was worth something. And for me, the most visible example of that was having my name in print. In a paper. Yeah.

I think that's fine. I'm a big believer that I think fuel is fuel and it doesn't. So many things that I've done in life, I've done to prove a point to someone or out of fear of death or out of jealousy that someone else is doing it. And I really think that's okay. I think that's okay. I want to wrap up by talking about failures opposite, which is of course

success. I once heard John Ronson in a podcast interview say you should dwell on criticism for as long as you should dwell on affirmation. So both should be fleeting and neither should be your defining sense of self or integrity. How much is that something that you subscribe to? I totally subscribe to it and I'm not very good at it. Me too. Yeah. And it's funny because I've had people say to me,

you never remember the compliments. Like, I paid you this compliment and it never sticks and I'm like when did you say that you know and all I remember are the negatives and I'm getting again I'm it's like a process of constant learning and I'm getting better at it so there are certain things that I do now that help like I won't religiously read my Amazon reviews for my novels because I got to a stage last summer when my latest book came out and i went on holiday to croatia and i was checking every single hour almost and they had the capacity to undo me the negative reviews even though it's you know it's

someone who has given a three-star review to a hoover bag or or did you do what I do that when I get a really mean one I go to see what else yes well if they like this phlegm drying spray I know

then that's fine but they gave me one star if they've got this rubbish taste in you know cushions then whatever and I stopped myself

from doing it and now I don't read them and that's been well done you because I think that is really tough and I think writers aren't honest enough about that out of fear of looking narcissistic but I think most people find it really tough definitely I've started using the

mute button on Twitter that's been really helpful that thing about we were saying about when we write honestly and feeling a level of connection um from other people when people respond to pieces I've written like that that does stick with me I think again because it's just on a more profound level and um I think I'm I'm trying to get better at treating myself in the same way as I would treat a really dear friend of mine and imagining if my friend was saying something to me about someone having said something mean and how that had affected her what I would say to her in response and trying to apply that to myself because I think that is the very least standard that you deserve as a measure of your own self-respect like that's where your self-worth will come from

so I think John Ronson is totally right. And I also think it's a hard thing to do because we live in a world of constantly generated opinion. And some people just like having opinions. And because there are so many opinions now, some of them are going to be negative ones. Really, it comes down to, do you believe in who you are do you believe in what you produce and what you create and do you believe you have a story worth telling and sharing

and if the answer to all of those questions is yes then no one can criticize you because what you're doing is fundamentally true and I think as well the the is, is that we live in a culture of attainment is valued so highly in a way that I don't think it has been in the past. you're you're forced to display a kind of stock stock cube of all your best days and all your best attributes and all your best achievements that I think sometimes we can forget that a well-lived life and achievement and success is so much more than than the articles that you have in print or the children that you produce or that very beautiful well-lit selfie. Yes. You can only go good position. Yeah. You know that there are so many other almost undefinable things

that make a life well-lived. Yeah, absolutely. It's the undocumented experiences that will probably give you the most. I count myself really lucky that I grew up in an era when the internet didn't exist because it is a difficult thing to to manage and I think that we run the risk of marginalizing what is perceived as negative experience or failure because we're living in an age of constant curation and showing our best quote-unquote best selves and actually it goes

back to what we said at the beginning you need the negativity and you need the sadness to understand what life truly is and to appreciate the things then that do go well and I just don't see them as distinct I see it all as one connected package or forest. That's the word I really mean. Like it's all part of what's brought me here to your lovely flat to be interviewed by someone who I cherish and respect. And that's a really beautiful thing. And I wouldn't be here had I not had the accumulation of all the experiences and all the failures and all the successes and the universe is unfolding exactly as is intended as I once read on the back of a loo door but also I was listening to an interview with Zadie Smith

and she said this phrase that she was embarrassed about saying because she thought it was cheesy but it's really stuck with me from the film It's a Wonderful Life, where the character says no man is a failure who has friends. Yes, that's so true. You've written so brilliantly about this, about your friends being amongst the kind of great love affairs of your life. And I feel exactly the same, that the last few years of my life have been eventful. the one incredible consistent who I've fallen more in love with than ever are my friends and actually the massive revelation of everything that I went through was that my friends loved me more my real friends loved me more for being more honest about what was going wrong and I was so worried about that, about admitting the stuff

that I'd done or the things that, the way that I'd acted or the failures that I had to own. And actually it's just deepened the love that I have with my friends. Yeah. And to see those in themselves as enormous achievements. Yes, that's very true. Very, very true. And it's that thing about an examined life as well. Like, I get partly, again, because my best friends are psychotherapists, but I really like talking to my friends about life and making sense of it with them. And they show me an enormous amount of compassion. And actually, sometimes when I am feeling insecure in a romantic relationship, I can go to my friends and spend some time with them and feel so much better. And that, again, I think is a really important thing for particularly women to realise,

is that you don't have to get all of your fulfilment on a personal level from a romantic relationship. You can actually get it from doing well at work or having a really lovely evening with a friend over pizza and shooting the shit. Or by having a really great night's sleep. I mean, there are all these different factors to your life. You know, you contain multitudes and that's an important thing to remember. Totally. And all of that is success.

Yes. It's failure distilled into success and vice versa. Elizabeth Day, I love your podcast and I love you. And I would not play tennis with you or not ski with you every day, given the opportunity thank you so much Dolly you've been just complete bliss let us not play tennis forever and ever thank you