How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S11, Ep4 How to Fail: Guvna B

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

My guest today is Guvna B, the MOBO-award winning rapper, author and broadcaster. He grew up on a council estate in East London and went on to study at the University of Hertfordshire before forging a full-time career in music. He's since released 10 albums and a memoir, Unspoken, in which he examines toxic masculinity and male identity.Guvna B - otherwise known as Isaac Borquaye - joins me to talk about the death of his father, and two of his close friends, and how he had to address his grief in order to carry on living. We discuss the power of vulnerability, fatherhood and finding 'blessings in the struggle'. We talk about faith, identity, race and inter-generational trauma. Plus we discuss failures in exams, driving tests and...erm...mobile phone storage - and why he once blew £4000 on trainers in Westfield.Thank you Isaac, for opening up with such generosity in what turned out to be a deeply inspirational conversation.*Unspoken by Guvna B is out now and available to buy here.*My new novel, Magpie, is out on 2nd September. I'd love it if you felt like pre-ordering as it really helps authors! You can do that here.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]*Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Guvna B @GuvnaB    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. This episode of How to Fail is sponsored by Misoma, my go-to jewelry brand. Now, I was introduced to Misoma by a very, very close friend of mine, and I have barely gone a day without wearing a piece of their jewelry since. They really are amazing. And Miss Soma know that every piece of jewellery a woman wears tells a part of her story, her successes, her celebrations, and of course, her failures. The earrings she bought with her first paycheck, the surprise pick-me-up present from her best friend after that rubbish

breakup, the matching bracelets they got on that wild holiday, refusing to take them off for months. As we grow, so too does our armour. From past loves to career milestones, morning to night, we wear our treasured moments, knowing they have shaped the person we have become. Misoma are on a mission to build a more confident, creative, and collaborative world, starting a chain reaction, one link at a time. I'm thrilled to share to all listeners of How to Fail a very exclusive 15% off now when you use ElizabethDay15 on Misoma.com. Thank you very much to Miss Soma. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right.

This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Isaac Borkway was born in Custom House, East London, to Ghanaian parents who had emigrated from Accra. At home, he was raised in a loving family who taught him the value of hard work and introduced him to music like the Jackson 5 and Kool and the Gang. Outside the safety of those four walls, Isaac grew up on a council estate and was a witness to crime and gang violence. He now says he credits his upbringing

with making him want to do better and inspire people to be the best they can be instead of becoming stereotypical products of a negative environment. Isaac studied business and journalism at the University of Hertfordshire before turning full-time to music. As a rap artist, he is better known as Governor B and has released 10 albums and won two Mobo Awards. He's also a TV regular and a football pundit for Sky Sports. A lifelong West Ham supporter, he was once asked in an interview what makes him laugh and answered Chelsea FC but alongside his professional success he has also experienced personal tragedy his father died suddenly when Isaac was 27 consumed by grief Isaac eventually found his

way to therapy only to lose two friends to unexpected deaths in the years that followed. His memoir, Unspoken, looks at the devastating impact these experiences had on him and how they challenged everything he had previously thought about what it meant to be a man. I was conditioned from a young age that what makes a man is strength, dominance and never crying, he writes. But now he thinks differently. A man is someone that can embrace both strength and vulnerability, he says. Isaac, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me.

That was an amazing introduction. Maybe the best I've ever had. Oh, thank you. Oh, such kind words words I hope the interview lives up to it eh I love that thing where you were asked what made you laugh and you said Chelsea FC that was very funny but the reason that I ended on a slightly different quote is because that idea of embracing strength and vulnerability goes to the heart of what the How to Fail podcast is about and there's another

beautiful line in your memoir where you talk about finding blessings in the struggle. Is that an outlook now for life that you think tough times teach you what we need to know? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've had quite a privileged life in the sense that I didn't experience a really, really close tragedy until I was about 27. I'd lost people in my life before that, but there was an element of distance there or maybe they weren't like super, super close. And so I thought, oh, life's pretty simple. It's all good, lovely, jubbly.

And then you kind of hit tragedy and you're like oh what do I do now but I realized that even on the worst of days there's still blessings that I can count and that's been my personal coping mechanism in terms of moving forward even with being in lockdown like I had a son about 18 months ago and I haven't had a gig for a year and all that kind of stuff and it can really get you down but then I look at my son and I'm like oh yeah that's a blessing I have in life that can keep me going so yeah I'd agree with what you just said. Congratulations on the birth of your son by the way. Thanks. Do you think that what you went through with losing your dad that suddenly in that way has affected how you're a dad yourself?

I think so. It definitely has. You know, my dad wasn't very vocal. I never doubted that he loved me. He showed it through his actions, worked really hard for the family, didn't really feel like I lacked anything growing up. But he never really said things like I love you or I'm proud of you and even though I probably knew that he did think that it would have been nice to hear it and he actually said it to me on his deathbed just before he passed away which meant a lot and I think with my son now he can't really understand the words that come out of my mouth but every day I say I love you I'm proud of you he probably gets a bit tired of it to be honest but yeah I think my dad not doing those things inspired me to make sure that I do it when I father my son. Your memoir Unspoken has a subtitle and the subtitle is toxic masculinity

and how I face the man within the man describe to me why you think your masculinity was toxic. I think from a young age I was conditioned conditioned that, you know, what makes a man is strength and dominance, never crying, getting on with things really, really quickly. Maybe growing up on a council estate had a part to play in that. Also, culturally, being a first generation Brit and having to watch firsthand my parents work a couple of jobs at a time played a part too. There wasn't really any room for conversation or emotion vulnerability because you know my parents are too busy trying to make rent that month and so I just thought real men don't cry they just get on with it

and I think strength in of itself isn't a bad thing and dominance isn't a bad thing but when your mind and your body is telling you that actually you need to be vulnerable you need to be honest with the people around you and you don't listen to that voice it becomes detrimental and that was my story you know when my dad passed away everything within me was telling me speak to people about it be vulnerable you're really struggling but I was like in my head no I have to be a real man and it ended up in me having a breakdown and so that's why it was toxic for me. I want to go back to that.

And thank you so much for sharing it so openly, because I do think it's really important to talk about how important it is to talk, particularly for men. But I read that you witnessed a friend get murdered when you were 15. And that for you was a formative experience obviously in some ways but it taught you how to bury what you were feeling do you mind telling us about that yeah sure so when I was 15 a close friend of mine was murdered on our estate by a couple of other guys that we also knew and on the day me and my friends were devastated,

shocked, couldn't believe what had happened but I just remember us feeling like we couldn't be vulnerable with each other, we couldn't you know cry, we couldn't properly mourn, we were all upset but it was almost like we were trying to you know stiff up a lip in front of each other and 15 years on I speak to some of my friends now and every single one of them says to me that I really struggled to sleep that night when I got home I cried and it's just funny that we didn't do that in front of each other and we felt like life had to go on and because there was that real pressure on the estate that if you're vulnerable you're potentially going to become a victim so we don't want to show that side literally the next day it was almost as if life just went on as normal and I never actually mourned for my friend I never

actually dealt with the emotions that come with that I just buried it and it ended up coming out 15 years later in a counselling session with me crying my eyes out and yeah it's just funny how I thought that not talking about it meant that it went away but actually it just it just stayed there. Now I know that there's a whole narrative which isn't that helpful a lot of the time about council estates and gang violence and how difficult it is to quote-unquote escape that and I just wonder where you put yourself in that narrative because as I said in the introduction you had a really great childhood in so many ways and you were also able to take your own advice and not be defined by the negativity of the wider environment.

How do you think you were able to do that? My mum always used to say to me that it takes a village to raise a child and when I think of the estate that's what I experienced. I mean there was violence, there was you know anti-social behaviour, things that any child shouldn't really be exposed to but I think the fact that there were working-class English people on my estate there were first generation Brits there were families from Africa the Caribbean South America all over Europe it's almost as if all of our differences brought us together and made us realize that we were we were all the same in a way and I think I just realized that human beings I don't believe anyway aren't inherently bad like young men are often branded criminals

and lost causes whereas in reality nine times out of ten that young person is just a misguided child you know people aren't born with bad morals we learn those morals from early childhood from the primary people in our lives and so I think for me my family were a huge part I was more scared of my parents than I was of the police that's probably why I kind of stayed on a straight straight and narrow but we knew the shopkeeper well the guy at the fish shop the bus driver I don't know it was just a real village feel and maybe that's why I kind of steered on just yeah didn't really get down to the nitty-gritty and the really really bad stuff and also my head teacher at primary school saw that I was good at English from a

very young age and she kind of gave me this aspiration that I never really had before and a lot of the times I think people maybe get up to no good because there's no aspiration and they just kind of let days pass. Oh the power of a good teacher it's just phenomenal isn't it? What was your teacher's name? Let's pay tribute. Miss Arninson. I still call her Miss, even though she's in her 80s now. We email every now and again. But she was a catalyst for me doing what I do today, actually, and being a lot more of a positive individual. Why are you called Governor B? governor be oh it's a bit of an embarrassing story really but we was on the bus the secondary school one day and me and my friends decided to create a bit of a crew and uh we thought we were a little army and so I was governor one of my other friends was lieutenant we had a general

as well if I knew that I'd become a rapper and an author I probably would have picked a different name but hey ho stuck with it now if you could rename yourself now what do you think you'd call yourself then my mum thinks I should have called myself Isaac which is the name that she gave me at birth and I'm not going to argue with her it's not a bad shout I love the name Isaac she's got very good taste your mum and actually I have to say in your book she comes out so well she comes out as such a kind of hero through the pages of your book so did she like your book has she read it yeah she has and she did and I was really nervous because I think you know culturally parenting styles and also how mental health maybe was viewed with her generation and

coming from Ghana wasn't always in the best way and so I didn't want her to come across in a bad light but she really appreciated the journey and how society has progressed and I think as much as she loved teaching me things she also loved learning from my life story so yeah she was a big support. I realize that we've got into very big very heavy topics quite quickly but it's just I've got so many things to ask you so I'm sorry no that's my fault but just to continue the trend you mention cultural baggage there and I'm very highly aware that black people are disproportionately affected by mental health issues there are higher suicide rates that just health across the spectrum and I wonder how much you feel it's a sort of twofold question really how much the

inherited trauma affects someone because I as a privileged white person don't have to deal with the inherited trauma of slavery in the way that you do but also whether you think that culturally, as a result, it's become less acceptable within communities to talk about vulnerability because you have to have been so strong historically. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does. It's so multifaceted. So I guess coming from a history of slavery, that's not necessarily something that my parents want to burden me with and so they didn't talk about art history a lot because they were so focused on moving away from it and moving forward in addition to that starting off in Ghana in a village coming over to England

their sole goal was to work really hard and provide a better life for their family and so they didn't want to be vulnerable because they thought that that might kind of stop them in their tracks a little bit or slow down the process they just wanted to get to the goal and all the conversation and the communication in between didn't happen in addition to that I think culturally in Ghanaian culture therapy counseling mental health it's kind of a taboo subject because number one they're big on faith so if you're a Christian which my family were or a Muslim or from another faith because you've got this God in your life it means that everything has to be okay and nothing can ever be wrong and so you kind of pretend that trauma doesn't exist. And so, yeah, I think there's so many things that go into it.

But ultimately, one thing I've realized is that it's not that my parents didn't want to be vulnerable or didn't want to communicate. It's just that they didn't know how and they weren't equipped with the tools. And so that's something that I've really been trying to equip myself with so that I can kind of buck the trend for generations to come. And I think the goal is that I'm a better communicator than my dad was and my son's a better communicator than me and so on. I mean, you're an amazing communicator. I can't wait to see what your son's going to be. He's going to be like a perfect human. But that's such an interesting point about faith that I hadn't really thought about before.

That idea that you can't admit to something being wrong because it feels like maybe you're criticizing God. And there's a very powerful bit in Unspoken where you mentioned that you had a conversation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on your own podcast, The Lost Tapes. And you talked about the power of lamenting because you are someone of a strong Christian faith but tell me about lamenting and crying out and why that's important. Yeah so just off the back of you know what I said about my parents and people of faith maybe not being great at keeping the tissues out for very long because you're like right I've got God so things have to be okay and I really struggle with that because

after my dad died I was like I don't feel like God's on my side here and I don't feel like praying I don't feel like just living out my faith because I'm really angry but I haven't been taught how to be angry with God because everything always has to be okay and then speaking to Justin Wellby and also reading a psalm that a friend sent to me it was psalm 13 I just realized that it's actually okay to be angry with God and ask questions and have doubts and so I started to do that and I started to take the pressure off myself that I have to feel okay straight away actually no I don't because I've lost one of the most important people in my life and and so yeah lamenting was really powerful and just sitting in that space of things not being okay

it's fine in the famous words of jesse jay it's okay not to be okay i love it you go from quoting justin welby the archbishop of canterbury to jesse jay but i think that's crucially important because i think that we've been done a disservice as a society by the cult of positive thinking that idea that you're only going to get positive things in your life if you constantly think happy thoughts and have a manifesting mood board where you allow good vibes only and actually i so agree with you that there's space for discomfort and sometimes you can lean into fear and lean into grief and that makes it better it's very

counterintuitive but it kind of helps yeah I'd agree and I think what it's resulted in is me having a more authentic faith like it's not a perfect one I still don't understand why pain exists and why my dad got taken such short notice and that kind of stuff but I think it's it's more authentic because I can at least have the freedom to question and doubt and work through it so that's been good for me we're going to talk about your dad a bit later but I just want to say now how sorry I am for your loss and for the shock of that and we will have a deeper conversation about it later on in this interview but I would love to get onto your failures now and your first one seems like quite a gear change from what we've been discussing but your first failure is your AS level results Isaac so tell us what happened there

so my AS level results uh mate so I've gone to to school to pick up the results bearing in mind you know some of the conversations we've had about my family coming over to england for a better life you know doing the best for their children giving them the best education and my best mate nick has opened his results right next to me he's got two b's two c's he's bitterly disappointed and then goes over to me i open my results and i see two e's and two u's i'm just in a state of shock Nick starts laughing but in my mind I just think oh no my mum's gonna kill me this isn't why she came over to England for me to get two E's and two U's and I think that was the realization for me that I can't just cruise through life having a good time because up until that point I had kind of cruised like I'd

narrowly passed my GCSEs without really revising and I thought oh yeah I'm just here for a good time because up until that point I had kind of cruised like I'd not really passed my GCSEs without really revising and I thought oh yeah I'm just here for a good time you know and then yeah the AS levels were a big shock to the system and made me realize that nothing easy comes if you don't work hard. What subjects were you doing? I was doing English language, politics, don't ask me why, sociology and history. And what was your mum's reaction? Let's just say that she wasn't best pleased. Yeah, she was very, very disappointed. And I think for her, it represented so much more than just poor results.

Because my parents were never the kind of parents that were just like, oh, it's the taking part that counts just do your best they were always like you've got to get an A or B like at worst and so she was bitterly bitterly disappointed so much so that she went to the school and begged them to let me redo some exams and not have to do an extra year and they actually allowed it so that was cool. And what did you end up getting in your A-levels? I ended up getting one B and two Cs in my A-levels. So you really did put in the work then? Yeah I think so I'm not naturally the most intelligent or studious but yeah I think my AAS just made me realize that you have to really really work hard and even if it's not something that you're super passionate about it would mean

a lot to your parents and also not be the worst thing you can do with your life at this stage and so yeah it ended up being okay. It's so interesting that all these years later as a 31 year old that's one of your three failures so it feels like it had a lasting impact on you. It did and I have this conversation with my friends every now and again it's hard to find the balance, you know, as the child of an immigrant, kind of living your own life, going your own way while respecting and almost paying back the debt to your parents of them having to, you know, travel halfway across the world, work really hard, couple of jobs at a time for you to be their version of success for me my version of success was completely different to what my mum and dad would want for me but it's like how do I find that balance and live my own life while being respectful to them and what was their version of success for you doctor lawyer engineer curing covid-19 probably. Yeah, a more traditional job role after getting a first at university and a master's. And contrary to that, I got a tutu and left it there and went

on to be a musician. So now they're really proud of me. You know, my dad was before he passed and my mum, you know, when she started seeing the music results. But yeah, ultimately they had a very different view of success. And did you have to have a series of conversations with them about your version of success for yourself and what you wanted to do? Or was that one of those things that wasn't ever discussed? It just happened? Yeah, Elizabeth, to be honest with you, those conversations, they don't really happen in a Ghanaian, in a traditional Ghanaian household anyway.

But it was was I won a MOBO award at 18 years old and back then the MOBOs were on ITV and up until then every single conversation I had with my mum about music didn't go down well it was just like nope you gotta go to uni and then she saw me at the MOBOs and then it was calling up her friends oh my son's on TV and all that kind of stuff and then that kind of yeah that kind of uh helped me along the journey and softened her heart let's just say and she was a bit more open to me pursuing music that's so cool that you won a mobo at 18 so at the same time as you were taking your a levels yeah on a mobo so it was probably just before I was 19 so it was my first

year of university just after my a levels and yeah it was great I before I was 19 so it was my first year of university just after my A-levels and yeah it was great I wasn't expecting it and it was crazy to me that people actually liked my music and that music had become a career because up until that point it was just a hobby talk to me a little bit about your musical influences because I mentioned in the introduction that your parents introduced you to Jackson 5 and Kool and the Gang but that you found your own way in kind of 90s early 2000s hip-hop tell me about who's influenced you. Yes and my parents grew up in a lot of Motown gospel music a lot of old school and then I grew up more listening and taking the liking to people like Jay-Z and Nas, Tupac, The Notorious B.I.G. It was because how they put their words together and

how they kind of spoke about the landscape of where they were coming from. And then I guess the big thing for me was a British rapper called Kano lived about 15 minutes away from me. And I saw his video. He had a song called P's and Q's that was on MTV bass. And for me, that blew my mind because it was like, there's this guy that likes the same kind of music I like looks a bit like me is from my area and is on tv I'm now going to pick up a pen and try and do the same thing so that was like the real turning point for me when I saw Kano on tv and I'm also really happy that you mention in your book how much you admire Miss Dynamite yeah I love Miss Dynamite people don't remember her like in the way that they should do she was absolutely phenomenal and her brother's a Carla

and I never realized that until quite recently yeah it's mad when you find that out you realize how blessed their parent their childhood must have been and how amazing their parents must be I recited one of Miss Dynamite's verses and pretended that they were mine for my school talent competition and won because I went to school in Essex. They didn't really know a lot about grime music and garage back then so they thought it were my lyrics but they found out shortly after and my pride was dented a little bit. Miss Dynamite was amazing. You combine your faith with your music. How difficult is it to bring in Christianity into a world where a lot of rap artists probably wouldn't do that or maybe you find it just comes naturally but I just

wonder if there's any conflict that you feel yeah not really I don't really find a conflict at all just because my faith is foundational to who I am as a person so I find it it bleeds into everything else that I do and also my lyrics aren't just like Jesus Jesus Jesus you know what I mean they're like yeah they talk about everyday things that that we all can go through and struggle with and experience so yeah I've never really found it a conflict I have found that in the music industry the attitudes towards people who have faith have changed in the last few years so when I started doing music I maybe would never get played on radio one or or one extra because they think oh this kind of belongs in a church maybe but I think over the years we've had you know Jesus

Walks by Kanye West Blinded by Your Grace by Stormzy and I think the the lines are a bit less blurred and a bit more fluid and so yeah I don't find any conflict at all. That's a really interesting point and Kanye West I mean has literally formed a church. Yeah yeah Sunday service choir has been interesting I've enjoyed listening to it but also I think the world's in a place where we just need hope in whatever form that we can get it and whether that's coming from you know a positive world view or faith of some sort I think people kind of are encouraged by it. Your second failure it's also interestingly a failure of a test of some sort because your second failure is losing your driving license. Kind of so I was a very cheeky boy and I lost my driving license after I had received it and basically it was because I was driving with no insurance and was stopped by the police and then

they took away my license obviously and I had to redo my test I got banned for about six months and the reason why that was a failure for me is because I think insurance at the time was only about 80 pound a month but I had come from like a culture you know in the council estate where it's always I don't know you just got to live life in the fast lane and if you can cut a penny or cut a corner then you've got to do it and that was the big realization for me that actually if you cut too many corners in life you just end up going around in circles and you gotta just give to Caesar what Caesar is due and live an honest life. Otherwise, it will always catch up with you.

And I just think seeing some of my friends and family members kind of end up in jail or lose their lives to crime and cutting corners and that kind of stuff. For me, that was the wake up call that this is a little sign that you've probably just got to try and live an honest life otherwise the repercussions might be huge by the way I just want to say if you're hearing a bit of drilling I'm thinking that's what it is Isaac's having an extension built and that's what that will be but I just wanted to explain to the listeners if in case they hear it I'm so sorry if it gets a bit annoying, let me know. Do not be sorry at all. No, I'm finding it quite melodic, actually. So you write very openly about the fact that you had this mindset that once you got money, you wanted to spend it. And I guess that is very much because coming from the Ghanaian culture, immigrant, having to work really hard, never knowing what's around the corner,

you want to counteract the uncertainty of the future, I guess, because you're like, well, I've got it now. And who knows what's going to happen tomorrow? Is it that kind of thought process? Yeah, 100%. You know, I'm coming from an upbringing that I didn't feel like I lacked anything. But I got older and I look back and I was like, wow, my parents really struggled. But now kind of we're further ahead. I get any income I need to you know live a good life but also I think I had a warped view of success on the estate it was like whoever had the best trainers or whoever had you know the flashiest car and I was always in this rat race of

trying to get the bestest newest thing that I could own because that would represent success and I think I've got older and I've realized that if a car gets you from A to B it's probably your right and there's a new one every year and there's new trainers all the time and it's hard to keep up but success is more how are you treating your family your wife your kids are you being an upstanding member of society helping people and and those are my new definitions but yeah I think I was kind of involved in a rat race from a young age that's beautiful tell us about spending four and a half grand on trainers oh my gosh sorry I normally send my podcast to my mum but I don't have to think twice

about this one because I don't think I've told her about this yet so I did an album when I was 17 years old I was expecting about 80 people to turn up to the concert. 900 people ended up coming. They all bought an album. I had four and a half grand in cash in my backpack going home that night. And it was the most money that I had ever seen. And it was all from music, which blew my mind. And I did what any sensible 17 year old would do. And I did what any sensible 17-year-old would do. I went to Stratford Shopping Centre in East London the day after. Bought a few trainers, bought some track suits, bought a new TV. Bought anything I could really because I was like, I'm rich. I'm a rapper. I've made money.

Let's spend it all. And yeah, I was basically broke a few weeks later with all this stuff in my house thinking, what have I done? You absolute idiot. But it was a lesson you know and also I always talk about school with young people school taught me about how to use a protractor and a compass but they never really taught me of how to manage money and taxes and that kind of stuff and so I had to learn all that myself when I was 18 19 20. I cannot tell you how much I agree I really wish someone had taught me about taxes I remember you know when I grew older and when I got to the stage where I was due to be paying tax I could not believe it I was like

hang on a second I'm earning money and I've got to give it away what I couldn't believe no one had ever told me which sounds so stupid. Yeah no it does but yeah many many learning curves along my life just going back to the driving license incident you said that you were stopped by police now again that's something that carries a great deal more weight for a black person particularly a black young man than it would do for someone like me. And I'm aware that we're talking at a time when there's been a renewed wave of Black Lives Matter protest movements. And we've had the tragic death of George Floyd and finding that police officer guilty, rightly so. And I just wanted to talk to you a bit about that about how you felt towards the police growing

up yeah I mean these conversations they're nuanced conversations to have and social media doesn't often leave space for nuance and I always say you know I didn't have a great relationship with the police when I was growing up I did know a few policemen that were great and police women that were great but ultimately they didn't really treat me or my friends just as an institution in the best way in my experience. And just to give you an example, I've been stopped by the police probably 15 times. And my wife, who is white, hasn't ever been stopped by the police. We're around the same age and from similar areas in London and every time I've been stopped most times it's because I match a description of someone that's done

something really bad I'm stopped I'm searched etc my wife has never ever matched a description of anyone that's done anything bad but what I do say you know is we have to have these conversations with integrity to move forward and so I will say two or three times I've been stopped by the police I've deserved to be stopped by the police and so that side of the argument definitely needs to be said but ultimately yeah disproportionate in comparison to my wife good for you saying that but also I'd be really pissed off I mean it sort of brings it home to you why there is an antipathy sometimes because you're being stereotyped on a routine basis. And there's no way that you can defend yourself because the power dynamic is very much in their favor. And I think it's

brought it home to a lot of us who have lived in blissful ignorance because of the color of our skin that actually it's so unfair and so relentless and I imagine it like grinds you down after a while yeah that's exactly it and you know you spoke about me being pissed off and I think the sad thing is I was probably very pissed off the first five times or the first seven times but then you become numb you become a bit desensitized which is really sad I remember shooting a music video a few years ago where one of my cameramen put a camera in the boot someone from their window thought it was a gun and for some reason odd reason and police came in a van about 10 of them with guns pointing at us and then us to get against the wall and that kind of stuff okay we thought there

was a gun in your boot fine but after that they just kind of left no explanation no slip and it was just as you go go about your normal day and so i wrote a letter of complaint to the ipcc and that's when I got the explanation of this is what happened someone called us xyz but it just felt like there was no respect and the stereotype and the unconscious bias towards a young black man by the institution is there to see and I'm always careful when I speak because some of my friends are police officers and and they're great people but I think the institution as a whole there is an unconscious bias there. There's been a relatively recent government report claiming that there's no

institutional racism in the UK what do you think of that? I think it's just a ridiculous statement to make and I actually think it did the report a disservice because I read the whole report it actually made a few valid points. But when your analysis of it is that there's no institutional racism in the UK, which just for me clearly isn't true, when you just look at the structures of education and workplace and all that kind of stuff, I think it just makes people not really take that report seriously. And I don't know how after George Floyd and the fact that so many people have shared their experiences and vowed to do better. We come out of a report and a statement like that 12 to 18 months later, it kind of baffles me. But hey, we keep fighting.

Can you stand to be leader of the Labour Party or like London mayor or something? I would really appreciate it if you could just save politics. I think it's tough. First of all, no, is the answer to that question. But also, I think it's really hard to be an honest politician. I wouldn't envy anyone in that position. Life is pulling you in so many different directions. Policies, all the people you have to please, money, of warps stuff i don't know for me it's

just really super tough and i think if there was a politician that was really honest and really empathetic and really wanted to do good i don't think they'd last very long because sadly the world is run by money and different agendas but maybe ask akala akala would i'd definitely vote for akala yeah that's a really good idea i'll get him on the podcast next and I'll say I mean I've already asked Ovi so and you're both saying no let's move on to your final failure now because it's a really emotional one and it is deleting text messages from your dad and your best friend Daisy to save space on your phone yeah tell us about that yeah that's definitely my all-time biggest regret I just live such a fast-paced life and I'm one of these people that just delete stuff just for fun to make space because I'm always you know getting new messages

people are sending me videos on whatsapp I'm having to look at images and stuff like that and i need space on my phone and then with my dad without thinking i just deleted a whole message history or whatsapp history same with my friend daisy and i do it with most of my friends after a few years just to clear space and now not having them in my life and going back to try and remember how they made me feel and things that they said it's really tough without text messages and whatsapp messages and yeah I'm absolutely gutted that there's nothing I can do about that even phoned up apple to see if there's anything I could do and they said no sorry mate but yeah that's super sad for me your best friend Daisy passed away in her sleep is that right yeah so she was diabetic and you know had some kind of imbalance in her sleep and was unable to recover and your dad's death as well was unexpected I know he had had a short battle with cancer, but that was a couple of years before,

wasn't it? Yeah, so he actually had cancer. They can't tell us when he had it, but basically he didn't know that he had it. And by the time he went to hospital, a few days later, he had passed away. He had open heart surgery about 20 years prior to his death, but he was completely fine after that. But but yeah the cancer could have been there for two weeks could have been there for a few months but it was a really aggressive form it's called T-cell lymphoma it's a cancer of the blood and yeah he just had no clue that he had it. I'm so sorry Isaac and after your dad and Daisy passed away another friend of yours Franklin also died And this all happened

in quite quick succession. And you write in your book about how you became an expert in grief, this kind of grief guru, which is not something anyone ever wants to have to be. But you learn an enormous amount about grieving. Tell me what you think the most profound lesson has been from your dad's death that's such a good question I think the most profound probably for me is that it's okay to feel all the things and not feel guilty about that so if I feel like I want to cry from my dad or Daisy or Franklin to just do that and embrace that feeling and emotion and not feel the guilt that I'm not being a real man because I'm crying and also if a day goes by and I don't think about my dad or Daisy or Franklin to not feel guilty that I haven't thought about them that day maybe I just

had a crazy busy day there might have been a variety of reasons but I've just been riddled with guilt since I've lost my friends and my dad and I guess the most profound thing is don't feel guilty you're a human being and you can't control feelings so just feel everything and embrace it do you think that the passing of time has helped or do you think that that's the wrong way to look at grief and how to handle it I mean the first thing I'd say is I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way I think we are all different and different things help different people and there's not this 10 steps of how to de-grief well but I think you have to look at what works for you and for me as time has gone on it's not become easier to think of these people and the fact that they're

not here but it's become a bit easier to live with, if that makes sense. I've become a bit more used to the new normal. And I have to ride the waves, you know, today I'm fine. But, you know, my dad's birthday at the end of April, I was in pieces. And so you've just got to ride the waves, I think. But I don't think there's a right or wrong way. I think you've just got to work out what works really well for you. One big thing for me is I've just realized that the puddles as problems in my life, they don't really go anywhere.

And I have to look out for them before they turn into floods because I can't just hide stuff and hope they disappear. I'll have to deal with them one day. And so it's just dealing with them in the right way whenever they rear their head. What would you say now to someone who has lost their parent very suddenly? I'd say it's really tough and it's really hard, but never ever forget that at your deepest, darkest, loneliest place, it's very rare for anyone to be truly alone. And I don't want to say that to sound airy-fairy, but what I mean is it's very rare for people not to have family that care for them, friends that care for them, access to help via, you know, counseling, therapy. For me, it's been faith, you know,

when I felt really lonely and felt like God was there for me. But what I would say you're never or you're rarely I don't want to say never because some people are some really horrific situations but I'd say you're rarely truly alone so don't give up that's beautiful do you feel the presence of your lost loved ones with you I mean is that part of the way of coping to feel that in some small way they they still exist like the memories that you had they still exist and even if you don't have the text messages the imprint and the impact they made on your life that exists too is that a helpful thought yeah one thousand percent there's things that my dad said to me growing up that meant absolutely nothing to me when he said them but now they mean everything he used to say to me things like son your hands are made for working whenever I'd be lazy and I just yeah whatever dad you just want me to do

the hoovering or washing up or something but now it's like it means so much because it's like oh I'm living out his legacy and so I have to work hard because everything that I achieve I can attribute to him and so I feel his presence everywhere I go we sold my wife's car the other week and I was remembering all the things that my dad would probably tell me to fix on the car before I put it up on auto trader and that kind of stuff and yeah Daisy Franklin the same thing I think yeah it's one of the privileges of having known and loved people the fact that those memories stay with you forever one of the most moving stories in your book is about how your dad he used to work at a french connection warehouse I think I've got that right he used to

get up early because he had a car to go and pick up a colleague at 5 40 a.m every single day and he did that just because he wanted to be a good friend he never once asked or accepted any payment for fuel and I just thought that's such a measure of a man that yeah he was great I mean genuinely a good guy slightly out of his way to pick up his his colleague but did it every single day and didn't ask for for anything back and it's also a reminder for me you know we're in a time where just the world just seems so divided in so many ways and I always remember the empathy and the love for people that my dad had and remind myself that I just need to try my best to show that and that's my way of making this world a better place but yeah my dad was he was

great you write very openly about how this extraordinary wisdom that we're hearing now was hard won and that in the immediate aftermath of your dad's death you shut down emotionally and subsequently you became angry and you started drinking a bit more than you should have done and you weren't helping around the house and I salute you for that and I would also just like to ask you a bit about the impact that grief has not on the person directly affected but on your wife for instance on the kind wider family. And just tell us a bit about that period and what happened and how your wife was handling it. Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely right. I think everyone was focused on my mum, my dad's wife, me and my brother, who were his children. And

people don't realise that it also affects, you know, wider people in the family. And I think because I was internalising a lot of my emotions and feelings I turned to drink as a form of comfort and also to help me get to sleep and it was quite out of character for me I'm a social drinker but I was never really someone that you know had to have a drink every night or whatever and I think my wife kind of realized that I was struggling, but it was obviously a very sensitive conversation to have. And so she was always great in the aftermath, making sure that I knew she was there for me, caring for me, being on hand to help with the funeral and anything that I needed.

And also she's, I don't know, she's the kind of person that likes to be close to people when they're struggling, where I'm the kind of person that likes to be close to people when they're struggling, where I'm the kind of person that if I'm going through something, just leave me the hell alone. Don't come anywhere near me. And I think that that was a real struggle for her. But ultimately, about seven months had passed and I was still drinking and she Googled, is my husband grieving or is he just being an idiot? She says right I've had this google and if I let you carry on for any longer you're gonna ruin yourself so again to counseling and you're gonna sweat your drinking and I'm grateful because sometimes you need tough love and she was just watching me kind of drink myself into a bit of a ditch and so I'm grateful that she was honest

to give me that tough love when I needed it. And you went into therapy around that time didn't you and I know that she was instrumental in making you see that that was in no way a failing but was actually going to be super helpful. So are you a believer in therapy now? I am, I am but I would say that I've seen maybe three therapists one of them didn't really connect as well and I was so tempted to just throw in the towel then but I would say to people that are considering it it's almost like dating in a weird way you're not always going to find the girl or the guy of your dreams on the first attempt but you keep going again you know you keep trying and eventually hopefully you find a therapist that you're well suited with and it's changed my life it's changed my perspective of spoken about things with my therapist that I hadn't spoken about or

verbally externalized before and it's just put me in a much more of a healthier mind state and I'm actually super passionate about sharing the fact that it did that because you know when I do TV and that kind of stuff and they talk about therapy they make it seem like it's really easily accessible but I actually recognize that people from working class communities or people that might not be able to afford to go private it's quite hard you might have to wait a few months on your local authority and it's not always that easy access that we'd hope to find but there are a lot of organizations online that are offering free therapy and I think local councils are taking it more seriously as well so I would just appeal to anyone that is considering it that it's worth a

try I definitely recommend it. And you learned through therapy that you're a hedgehog tell us what that means. So basically when it comes to conflict or difficult conversations or trauma I like to bury my head in the sand a little bit and the pricks come out and it's don't come near me just want to be by myself and my wife therapist said this not me so Emma if you're listening no disrespect intended but she's a more of a rhino so she's ready to face it head on she's ready to charge she's ready to attack it and that's how she likes to to get over things what do you think your son is or is it too early to tell i haven't actually thought about it it's probably a bit early to tell because he's just under two years of age but i'd probably say that

he probably he's more like my wife at the moment he's more of a rhino if he's unhappy everyone will know about it he doesn't kind of go into his little corner and keep himself to himself he's more like my wife at the moment he's more of a rhino if he's unhappy everyone will know about it he doesn't kind of go into his little corner and keep himself to himself he's ready to go to war so you deleted those text messages but do you still have photos of your dad and daisy yep i've got photos of them which you know i'll cherish um with Daisy you couldn't write this but she passed away a few days before Christmas day and the day after she passed away I received a Christmas card in a post from her and yeah I'll cherish that forever and I've still got both their numbers saved in my phone funny enough though sometimes I do this weird thing where I phone like the numbers just to oh maybe they'll pick up one day who knows but um o2 have given my dad's

phone number to someone else and they picked up and they were like uh hello and i was like hello it was like who's this and i was like who's this sorry i think i'm talking to heaven oh it was hilarious but yeah i've still got photos oh Oh my God, did you say to, I'm presuming you didn't say to the person who picked up or this used to be my dad. No, I didn't. I thought that might have been a bit awkward. Might have freaked them out a little bit. Oh my gosh, weird mobile phone O2 etiquette.

Isaac, you've been through so much at such a young age. And I often think it's interesting to ask people what age they feel rather than what age they are and you sound to me like a very old soul and I just wondered how old you feel I actually feel like I'm 21 and okay not physically though below my theory to smithereens yeah sorry I would have gone with you if I could but I couldn't and the reason is in my mind growing up your 20s is the kind of decade where you've got it all worked out you know what you're about you've been through life and then you're just ready to go know who you are and for me that

was absolutely not the case my 20s was almost like the practice run of me trying to figure out who I was losing a lot of people close to me not not really knowing how to deal with it, not knowing what makes a true man, all that kind of stuff. And now in my 30s, I'm like, okay, I feel like I'm a bit more secure in who I am. I'm a bit more comfortable with trauma. I know that life's not going to be perfect, but I'm fine with that. And so I'm ready to give my 20s a go again. So in that sense, I feel 21, but I'm very privileged that I sound like an old soul. So in that sense, I feel 21, but I'm very privileged that I sound like an old soul. No, that's really interesting because a lot of people come on this podcast

and choose their 20s as one of their failures because I think it is a transitional decade where you're under an enormous amount of cultural pressure to be sorted. And yet, as you say, you're still trying to find your identity. And if on top of that you have the losses that you experience I mean no wonder it's just messes with your head but I feel like

your 30s are going to be really great for you and what's next Isaac because you've written two books you've 10 albums under your belt like what's next for you me and my wife she had this idea that when my son was born she wanted to write a book from my dad to him so that he could remember him even though they didn't meet and so i read it and i thought oh this could actually help a lot of people so we finished it up together and we've just signed our publishing deal for that so it'll be out next year and it's a book for toddlers and it's meant to be a conversation starter or a way to explain grief to those that are really young in a fun way. And to pay homage to those that we've loved and lost.

So really excited about that. What's it called? It's called Where Grandad Lives. Oh, it sounds amazing. I love it. What a great idea. And I also, I suppose I just want to end by asking how your mum's doing she's doing all right I think Ezra who is my son has been a great gift to her that's come at the right time she's even tried

therapy a few times which is something that I never thought that she would do but yeah she's battling on when you say she tried it a few times did she try it a few times then be like yeah basically well I'm just grateful that she went for those couple of times you know small small steps that's a small step in the right kind of direction that's brilliant and if I were to ask you Isaac just to sum up just this is going to be a really massive question now just to sum up everything that life has meant to you no just I suppose to sum up what failure and success mean to you now given everything that you've gone through I'm gonna attempt to steal one of these quotes that I probably saw on Instagram

or something I'm probably about to butcher it but I would say never let your failures go to your head and no never let your failures go to your heart. I love that you're failing to get the quote right yeah sorry never let your failures go to your heart yeah right I got it I got it never let success get to your head and never let your failures get to your heart. Oh I love it. And what I understand of that is you know success doesn't define me and failure doesn't define me they're all a part of life and ultimately I just have to make sure that I'm keeping those who love me and those that I love close and informed on how I'm doing and everything else is a bonus we can learn from anything

what a wonderful note to end on what a wonderful human you are Isaac Governor B I just cannot thank you enough for coming on how to fail Thank you so much for having me. Absolute pleasure. This episode of How To Fail is sponsored by Misoma, my go-to jewellery brand. Now, I was introduced to Misoma by a very, very close friend of mine, and I have barely gone a day without wearing a piece of her jewellery since. They really are amazing. And Misoma know that every piece of jewellery a woman wears tells a part of her story, her successes, her celebrations, and of course, her failures. The earrings she bought with her first paycheck, the surprise pick-me-up present from her best friend after that rubbish breakup, the matching bracelets they got on that wild holiday, refusing to take them off for months. As we grow, so too does our armour. From past loves to career milestones, morning to night,

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