How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S11, Ep6 How to Fail: Paris Lees

Episode Date: June 30, 2021

[TW: sexual abuse]Today, my guest is the absolute PEACH of a human that is Paris Lees. Paris is an award-winning journalist and a Contributing Editor for British Vogue. She was the first trans woman to present on BBC Radio 1 and Channel 4 and the first to appear on Question Time. Her recently published memoir, What It Feels Like For A Girl, is the uniquely told, semi-fictionalised story of her childhood in Nottinghamshire - which included a spell as a rent boy and an eight-month prison sentence for armed robbery - and the refuge she found in partying, music and, eventually, books.Paris joins me to talk about everything from dating and failed relationships to missed deadlines and trans rights. Plus we discuss what it feels like to be a highly sensitive person and how this self-perceived 'failure' has actually turned into one of her biggest strengths.*Buy Paris's memoir, What It Feels Like For A Girl, here*My new novel, Magpie, is out on 2nd September. I'd love it if you felt like pre-ordering as it really helps authors! You can do that here.*How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]*Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Paris Lees @parislees  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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can experience the feel-good difference for yourselves. Use the code HOWTOFAIL, all one word, and visit www.cbii-cbd.com. That's www.cbii-cbd.com. Thank you so much to CB2. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger, because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Paris Lees is incredible. That's it. That's your intro. No, but really, when I was researching

this interview, it's all I ended up wanting to say about her. This is a woman who, as well as being an award-winning journalist and a contributing editor for British Vogue, is also an anti-bullying campaigner and a trans rights activist. She was the first openly trans woman to present on BBC Radio 1 and Channel 4 and the first to appear on Question Time. The acknowledgement section of her memoir even includes a thank you to David Dimbleby. Her what it feels like for a girl is an extraordinary riotous read which takes us from her childhood in Hucknall Nottinghamshire where she was misunderstood by her parents and bullied by peers for seeming gay she found her refuge in parties, drag queens and drugs, lots of them, which she paid for during spells as a rent boy. At the age of 18, she served eight months for an armed robbery arranged by an

older man who was acting as her pimp. In prison, she decided to change her life. After that, Paris worked hard for her A-levels and won a place at the University of Brighton to study English, a university from which she now has an honorary doctorate. It was in Brighton that she first felt able to live as a woman. The memoir, written in Nottinghamshire vernacular, is furiously unique, moving and funny. Even the acknowledgements made me cry, which is the first time that's ever happened in any book. The bookseller made it their editor's choice and the critic Paul Flynn called Paris the voice of a generation. From my earliest memories until adulthood, everyone told me I wasn't a girl, Paris wrote in one of her regular pieces for Vogue. I'd been born with male genitalia and that was that. I'd been born with male genitalia and that was that but I knew they were wrong and the conviction I felt encouraged me to challenge other things people told me because if everyone was wrong

about me and I had no doubt about who I was what else were they wrong about Paris Lees welcome to how to fail hello I just thought that was such an interesting point to start from because you are someone who for whatever reason has never played by the rules that you've inherited or that society has told you you have to abide by. Do you think that's something that you were born with or is it something that you've learned? I think it's a really interesting question and definitely as a child you know you go through that phase where you're like well why is the sky blue you know why is it called a kettle but why who decided that it was called a kettle?

Why is a kettle called a kettle and a jar isn't called a kettle and a kettle is called a jar? And I must have been the most annoying child in the whole of history. And I just didn't trust the people around me because they were telling me that I was a boy. And I was like, well, no, you're clearly wrong. I'm not, I'm a girl. And I was like, why can't you all see this? Like, I am 100% sure of who I am and I guess it did cause me to just sort of question everything and thought well if you're wrong about that then you might be wrong about this and that yeah I mean I never really lost that really and it's it's sort of something that I'm left with now and it just means that I tend to just be contrary about everything and I'm not sure if that's necessarily

always a good thing in 2021. Oh, I think it's a brilliant thing. And it's a great gift to your readers, because I think that that refusal to believe that rules are there for a good reason means that you've written this completely unique book. You explain what it is, because it's sort of genre bending. So tell me how you would describe what it feels like for a girl. Well, it's my story. Growing up, it's a memoir, but I very much wanted it to read as fiction. You know, if you're a casual reader, you've never heard of me, you can pick this up. And Elizabeth, I have this thing in a bookstore, right? You know, they say don't judge a book on its cover.

Of course, we all judge a book on a cover. That what it's there for but I also like to open a book at random and just pick a paragraph or just a sentence because maybe this is very demanding of me but I tend to feel that if you are a good author you won't have any fat in there every single sentence should have had love and care taken over it. And it should interest you and it should draw you in and it should make you want to read on. And I really, really, really hope that my book will have that for people, that they will pick it up. They don't have to know me. They don't have to know my story, which is a very interesting story, by the way, but they will want to know more. And I just wanted them to enjoy it. And the other thing is, I didn't want to do a

transgender memoir. I was born here and then this thing happened and that thing happened because it's just so boring to me. I think that one of the really interesting things about the memoir is that it feels very light filled. It feels very joyful, even though a lot of the things that you go through are incredibly traumatic and it is written without a single shred of self-pity and I just want to applaud you for that because it didn't make me feel in any way depressed it definitely made me feel thoughtful it definitely challenged some assumptions it definitely made me look at the world differently which is what great literature should do but there wasn't any deadening, poor me about it. And is that something that was intentional? Or is that just you? Well, thank you, firstly, for all your kind words. And I'm really pleased that you've enjoyed

it. It's very surreal for me to be at this stage, you know, after having written it for so long, and for it to be connecting with people is just you know really overwhelming and bizarre it's difficult because in some ways I do feel a bit poor me in a sense and you know I was desperately desperately desperately unhappy as a child and I haven't done anything to change it I really wish that it hadn't been the way that it was but also I am somebody who has a great joie de vivre and I love life. I do have a great sense of joy. And I think we often see this in communities that have been marginalized and abused effectively. We find our joy and we find a way to be joyful. And I just thought it was

really important for me to reflect that, that despite everything that was going on, I did find a way to create joy in my adolescence. And thank goodness I did, right? Because it would have been a misery narrative otherwise. And there was great sadness, but there was great fun. I mean, I'm absolutely convinced nobody has ever had as much fun as me and my best friend, Steffi did, who is Lady Di in the book. They just didn't. We had the most fun anybody's ever had ever. And that's it. You had great nights out that are so vividly rendered. And this all I think was part of your identity formation because at home, you didn't feel understood or accepted in the way that you

were being by your friends. But I understand that you have the support of your parents now, is that right? What kind of journey have they been on? Yeah, I mean, at the start of this book, it's a story about a kid who's desperate to escape, right? And will do anything to escape. And as you know, because you've read it, does do anything to escape.

And I found this amazingly vibrant sort of nightlife in Nottingham in the early 2000s. And I was way too young to be getting into those nightclubs, but I was always very precocious. War makeup was very tall. I didn't realize it at the time because at the time, like the 90s seemed to me just like a hundred years away. But now I see, oh, that was sort of like the tail end. There was still a lot of people that had been around on that sort of raving scene, maybe

in their teens and twenties that were still hanging around just as I was hitting the night clubs in the early to mid noughties. And that was a lot of fun for a while until it's not fun. With every high, there's a come down, right? And I think that in terms of my parents, it's interesting because I spoke to my dad the other day and I told him some of the reviews that the book has been getting because some people that I respect have said some very nice things about it, which is, you know, hugely satisfying for me. And I shared them with him and he said, well, I'd really wanted to know what people have been saying about it. And I said, well, I didn't want to call you up and say, oh, well, people have said this and people have said that because I know that the way that you come across in it, that may not necessarily be the way that you see yourself now,

or that may not be the way that you remember it being at that time, because of course it's written from my perspective in a certain time and place. And he said, don't worry about that. I just want you to have some peace and security and happiness now. And he understands that this book

is the best chance of that. And my mum as well, we've been on a real journey. And I can genuinely say to you that for the first time in my life, I feel supported by both of my parents wholly and completely. I've got great friends. I've got great support at work. I feel like I've got a community of people that support me. It's wonderful. And I'm so incredibly, incredibly grateful because I did not have that growing up. I can hear it in your voice, what that means to you. It's very emotional to listen to as well. And it seems like the perfect time to come on a podcast all about failure. Everything's sorted. But can I ask you about, there are elements in the book which are uncomfortable topics to stray into. The fact that you were a rent boy and to my mind were exploited a lot of the time by older men,

but the way that you write it often doesn't make it feel like that. It actually makes it feel sometimes that it was quite empowering sex for you but it obviously did leave this very dark trail and you ended up in a young offenders institution can you just tell me about the balance of that in the writing of it and how difficult a line that might have been to tread well I really wanted to show how vulnerable I was. And, you know, we know that many LGBT kids are vulnerable. And we also know that there are predatory men out there who take advantage of vulnerable kids, right? We see this again and again, all over the place.

This happens, sadly. It's taken me a journey to realise exactly what happened to me because I remember talking about my experiences, which at the time, you know, 14 years old, 15 years old, I did think were empowering. I'd opened up about them in something for The Guardian. And then somebody had done an article on what I'd written in The Guardian and they'd actually said the word, you know, she was abused in toilets. And I'd never heard that word used to describe what had happened. And it really

shocked me. And I was like, well, what else would you call it? Of course, it's abuse. They were grown men and you were a child. And I think really this book has been about coming to terms with that, coming to terms with the fact that that was my childhood and that I hadn't realised it at the time and sort of feeling great empathy for me. And I grew up feeling like I wasn't good enough, Elizabeth, you know, that I was a pervert, that there was something wrong with me, that I would never have a normal life, all of that stuff. I've also made decisions in my life that I'm really deeply ashamed of. As I describe in the book, I took part in a robbery and I went to prison. There's a lot of stuff like that. And I think I've really sort of punished myself and beat myself up. And I think that this book

and sort of conceptualising that period of my life as a sort of discrete period and thinking of myself as quote unquote Byron has allowed me to go back and really empathise with that kid. And, you know, does that sound really crazy to you sort of thinking of myself in the third person in that way not at all I think it's necessary and actually very evolved so Byron is the you character in the memoir that's what you call yourself at a younger age but it is a pseudonym but I think that's a really like it's a sort of therapeutic process in a way isn't it like it's very difficult to connect I find it very difficult to connect with my inner child

unless there is that third person element of it yeah this is the thing as well I think we're all doing this as human beings we're all dealing with past traumas we're all telling a story about ourselves and I'm always thinking of ways of how can I get people to sort of empathise with my experience and the experience of trans people, because I know that it's so far outside a lot of people's understanding, but we feel exactly the same things that everybody else does. But oftentimes, things are just more difficult, or they're more heightened. And I think that this question of identity, I don't know about you, but during the lockdown, I've become completely obsessed with French crime dramas, because I've been learning French. I'm completely obsessed with France.

There's so many different things that I like about it. It's the escapism. It's the moody sort of atmosphere. But I've also realized that one of the themes that keeps popping up is people revisiting trauma from like 20 years ago or 10 years ago or something. And I'm really, really, really really really fascinated in that as a theme and I think that this writing process I said in another interview the other day it was almost a bit like a an empty chair sort of thing you know in therapy where they say pretend your mother's in the chair actually speaking of my mother she had some old pictures of me when I was still

presenting outwardly to the world as a boy you know know, wearing boys clothes and stuff. And I never look at these things. And a couple of months ago, I went into my sort of memories box and I got them out and I put them up and framed them on the wall. And I was actually able to face that person and that kid and sort of accept it. That's beautiful. I'm not happy with it with it but and I really wish it could have been different Elizabeth but I can accept it now on some level I think I can accept that I've written it down in black and white it happened that really happened to me and it was wrong and I need people to know and understand and I think it can help me move forward I think it's an act of singular generosity to the rest of us as well, because I think there's so much misunderstanding and odious, misdirected hatred towards the trans community. And trans people have to go through so much to be who they are. That's what I think people lose sight of. The amount you have to deal

with. There is no way that someone would do that just for the laugh of it. There's no way someone would do all of that and have all of these experiences unless there was this profound, unshakable feeling about who they were. It really upsets me that so many people misinterpret that. And that's why I think what it feels like for a girl is just a deeply important book, as well as being a fantastic read. And so I thank you for that opening up and for that sharing, which I can only imagine, was really, really sad a lot of the time. imagine, was really, really sad a lot of the time. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. And I didn't write it to be a polemic per se. But it is great to hear that that's your response to this. Because, you know, it's so frustrating to me that there is this cultural narrative now that trans people

are a problem, that we're a problem to other people, that we are perverse, that we're a threat in some way. And it's just so deeply unfair. And I didn't write this to make people think that, but I don't really know how you could get to the end of this book and not feel that, you know, that actually, no, this person is the person who was vulnerable and that we need to be helping. But I'm also really glad that it didn't depress you and that I put enough joy in there that you could also feel good about all of the good things that are in there as well and you know it has been a really really hard thing to balance but I'm really pleased that that's your reaction thank you it is no thank

you and we will get onto your failures but I first need to ask you about the colour of the book jacket because that was another thing that sparked joy in me it is like I think I heard you describe it as a sort of cross between one of those acid house smiley faces and a highlighter pen it's a specific kind of luminescent yellow and I know that you you were a bit of a control freak about it weren't you Paris I was a bit of a control freak so we'd been looking at ideas and stuff and I think originally it was going to be a bit more straightforward really beautiful tasteful design but I was just like no come on you've read the story it's got to be gobby it's got to be bold it's got to be attention seeking it's got to be in your face it's literally got to scream for your attention look at me for me as well Elizabeth the thing is it's not just a book it is a obviously, but it's a whole concept for me.

And I hope that it will be developed for television or film or stage somewhere. And I definitely structured it in that way. And when I was listening to lots of music from the era that it's set, and I was matching those up with the chapter headings and stuff, you know, for me, this whole project is an immersive experience and so I had a vision of what the cover was going to be I sent over quite a detailed brief to Penguin and the designer Tom Etherington he's a Midlands lad and I was like yes perfect and he just absolutely knocked it out of the ballpark it's really really day glow right when you see it in

daylight it looks like it's glowing in your glow right when you see it in daylight it looks like it's glowing in your hand right yeah it does it's like it's not just i've taken too many drugs it does actually do that right in my life not now but either i'm completely crazy or it looks luminous right it does and i love the way the title is handwritten and the first and last words are written over your author name i I just think that's such a cool thing. It's so cool. And I love the fact that it's not contained to the page because this story and this character, me,

you know, at that time couldn't be contained. And I just love it. And I think it really sums up the spirit of the book. And it also feels cool and it feels fashion. And it just, I just absolutely love it. And I don't mind raving about it in public because it just I just absolutely love it and I don't mind raving about it in public because I do I just love it is that really naff just no it's brilliant with your own book cover you have to rave about it because it is a rave in a book jacket it's brilliant I just thank you for indulging my love of book jacket design there just a big

geek out moment it's brilliant now your failures your one, there's a bit of a double negative here. Your first failure is not being not sensitive. So tell us what you mean by that. Well, see, I'm highly sensitive, right? This is something that I've realised during lockdown. And I was trying to send it over to you. And I was like, how do you say I'm not sensitive? I was like, what have I failed at? Yeah, I was like, what have I failed at? It's really

interesting, actually, because when you look at the opposites of sensitive, it's things like hard, cold, tough, and all that sort of thing. And I suppose maybe I'm not tough in a sense, but I'll walk you through it. So if you've read my Vogue columns, you may know that I came out last year as having had a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder five years ago. Yes. An amazing piece, by the way, which I loved reading. It's entitled The Life Changing Power, isn't it? Yes. Yes. Of going mad, which I didn't know if I could get away with that. But I said, I'm reclaiming it. So they let me get away with it.

And I was really scared of putting that out actually but as you know I've done therapy since then and I really genuinely do feel that I probably wouldn't qualify for that diagnosis now so I don't know if that means I am cured quote unquote but I don't have those same extreme struggles but then sorry sorry to interrupt Paris but how would you define the borderline personality disorder? Oh, right. Yeah. So for people who don't know, we struggle with something called mentalising, which is realising how you come across in interactions with other people and struggling to understand other people's sort of states of mind. So for example, we all struggle to mentalise when we're drunk and we get into an

argument with a bouncer. So it's something that we all do from time to time, but people who have borderline personality disorder struggle with it particularly. It can lead to a lot of conflicts. There's a fear of rejection, feeling things very intensely, very intense emotional reactions to things, some extreme behaviours to help cope with these difficult feelings. So we are particularly prone to self-harm, sort of compulsive behaviours like shoplifting, drug taking, kind of some of the stuff that I talk about in the book. There's all of that and that really extreme behaviour and those extremes of emotions have gone. They've generally gone.

If you can imagine like a sort of graph that shows earthquake tremors that goes up and down really very steep spikes. It's now more of a sort of gentle lilt. You know, I have ups and downs, but my base level and my internal sense of self is much more stable and whole. So obviously life is much more pleasant for me and everybody around me. But I've been left with this thing where I'm like, well, I'm still very sensitive about certain things. And I was like, so how do I explain this? And I came across this book called The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine N. Aron. And it really blew my mind because the thing is, I'd always known that I was sensitive, but it was always expressed in these really negative terms. So

I was particular, I was fussy, I was mardy. That's a good Nottingham word for you. I was overly sensitive, overly emotional. I like things a certain way. And it was always seen as a negative thing growing up to other people. And I saw it as a negative thing as well. But the way she frames it in this book is that a certain percentage of the population taking more information from their environment. So this has some obvious evolutionary benefits because we are the people who are most likely to wake up if there's a fire in the night right we are the people who would notice if there's danger coming from far away we will be the first person to notice it i'm the sort of person who will be oh actually shall we turn the lights down in the room or actually shall we close that window and then

other people go oh yeah you're right i hadn't. And I'm sort of there first, you know, so we pay attention to detail. We notice things, we really feel things and seeing it framed in that way, it's really sort of helped me frame it in a positive way now, which is it is what it is. And we're just going to have to work with it. That's so interesting. So does it manifest as well in things like the clothing that you wear, that it has to feel a certain way? Yeah, absolutely. And I read a interview with Zadie Smith, I think in Vogue, actually, where she was talking about when she's writing, she can't wear any buckles, or it has to be like really loose clothing like a yoga session and I'm exactly the same and lockdowns only compounded this I have to be completely comfortable and actually very often highly sensitive people we are the writers with the teachers with the therapists with the artists

and actually there is a space in society for people who are highly sensitive where their skills are a blessing and not a curse. I sound like a wet blanket talking about this, but it's honestly genuinely really blown my mind, realising that actually, no, this is a trait. And it just makes complete sense to me, because also you need people in society who aren't highly sensitive, you know, because I'm never going to go and work down a coal mine. But we do need those people. And my granddad worked down the pit back in the day. So there's a space for everybody. And my space is with the sensitive people.

And it also sounds like there's an overlap here with being deeply empathetic. So are you also someone who takes on the energies of other people? Do you find it draining if you're having a long conversation with someone who is talking about something incredibly sad in their lives? And does that affect you as well? Well, I think it's fair to say I've been rather codependent over the years, Elizabeth, but obviously I've done a lot of therapy and I'm much better now. Yeah, I would say that I'm seriously empathic, really, really, really empathic. And the other thing that I sort of realised with all of this is that I'm an introvert as well, because I always thought I was an extrovert. And reading this book, you would think that I was an extrovert, right?

I have a friend, Benjamin, who is a true extrovert. And if you met us in a club on a night out, you'd think, oh, wow, you know, they're the life and soul of the party. What characters, you know, they're obviously both extroverts. The difference is I don't want to go out the next day, whereas he can go for Sunday lunch and go out again on the Sunday night. Yes. And that was the biggest surprise to me because I think because I lacked validation growing up and I was so desperate for validation, I was always attention seeking. It's a huge part of what the book's about. And it's a huge part of what, you know, the early part of my career was about was, you know, I was going on television and it was, you know, people were validating me

and saying, you know, great job and you look great and it's flattering. Right. And now that I've done that therapy and I've actually realized where that was coming from and it was actually coming from a place of low self-esteem, it's left left me really do you actually like doing this stuff Paris and I don't and even just a few years ago it was like three four years ago I was meeting with premier models and elite models and I was like is it too late for me have I got the right body shape you know could transport this kind of thing and And now I just think, I hate photo shoots. What the hell was I thinking? And I genuinely have lived a significant portion of my life thinking that I was an extrovert and I'm not. I cannot tell you how hard I relate to this in so many ways, because I have spoken about this before on the podcast, but I also have realised

I'm an introvert who has successfully learned how to appear extrovert when I need to because we live in a world that is geared up for extroversion I think yeah and hearing you talk about the validation you got from being on television or anything like that I so understand that because I think a lot of my life I've also had a degree of low self-worth but I've been looking for love and because I've a lot of my life, I've also had a degree of low self-worth, but I've been looking for love. And because I've been until three years ago in a series of sort of toxic or disappointing romantic relationships, I would seek external validation then, like love from people who maybe didn't know me. It almost felt safer that way. So I can completely understand. And

have you, like me me has lockdown been quite clarifying for that for what you want to let back into your life oh it's been absolutely wonderful and can I just say I've been listening to your episode with Matt Haig today and I've really I'm basically a younger far less successful transgender Matt Haig who is of course from Nottinghamshire and I just think he's wonderful. I think he's absolutely fantastic. And he's sort of been on that journey where he said that he was looking for overstimulation at all times when he was younger. And he was a big clubber as well, wasn't he? And taking God knows what. I'm not libeling him there, am I? He did actually say

that. Yeah, he did. He did say that he was a party animal. And now he really appreciates the sort of quietness and calm. And maybe it's just growing up as well, right? But definitely in the lockdown, the first month, I think we were all sort of quite anxious, right? Because it was new territory. Once I'd got used to the idea that we were in lockdown, I'm telling you, I have never known peace like it, Elizabeth.

I was like, I don't have to see anybody. I don't have to look nice. I don't even have to feel guilty about telling people I don't. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah. And that's when I realised, oh, you're an introvert. Now, in that piece that you mentioned about being diagnosed in 2015 with borderline personality disorder, there is one of the greatest quotes I've ever read in any piece which was what an ex once told you and this ex once told you mad transsexual former

escort and ex-con not exactly most men's wish list for a dream girlfriend and that is why they are an ex but um it leads us on to brilliantly your second failure which is relationships Paris oh tell me about that well listen in and I I really empathize with what you were saying about seeking a validation in relationships I have to say in in fairness to that gentleman I was the toxic person in that relationship but I think I have to take the primary proportion of the blame the way I described it at the time it was because he was absolutely gorgeous he was absolutely gorgeous transported me to paradise nightly he supported me he'd take me places he'd hold my handbag at events he was just oh when I split up with them every woman I went for lunch with and a few gay men too were like I'd say yeah I've

split up with my boyfriend and every single one of them like, oh, the hot one, the really hot one. And it was like, oh, thanks, guys. Are you serious? It was like, you know, somebody giving me a Fabergé egg. Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God, so beautiful. And my hands just shook and it dropped and it smashed on the floor. And it probably could have been mended. But then I thought, you know, I'm just going to stamp on it.

I'm just going to stamp on it and just literally just wear it into the ground because as you know from reading my book I grew up I didn't think that that was going to be available to me you know I didn't think I was going to have a really handsome intelligent successful boyfriend who treated me with respect and took me on holiday to Venice. When I first came out as trans to my mum, I remember her saying to me, you're probably going to be alone for the rest of your life. You're never going to be with anybody, which wasn't a completely unreasonable thing to think at that time. You know, 15 years ago in Nottingham, straight men didn't date trans women, not in my world, not in the town that I grew up in. Obviously, we didn't know how

good I was going to end up looking at that point. But you know, it's like, since then, the world has changed. And I think that I've been stuck in this feeling like I'm not good enough. And I definitely felt like I wasn't good enough in that relationship, and that I didn't deserve it, and that I deserve to be punished. And it was easier to just break it than just accept that it was real, and that I deserve to be punished and it was easier to just break it than just accept that it was real and that I'd got there and that makes me very very very very very sad very sad so it sounds like an act of self-sabotage where you're so fearful of the thing happening and the person not being with you that you choose to not be with them first yeah yeah it's like a Jungian nightmare where the thing you you fear the most is exactly what happens to you and you bring it about at the

end of the day I've learned something from that and I really hope that if I fall in love again which I absolutely think is possible I'm not desperate for it now because I do feel very whole and complete in myself but I do think that I will bring a different energy to the table and I think also as well if you want to get deep I know I'm so into my self help and sort of psycho babble but it's really helped me over the past few years actually but I think there was something going on with my dad in that relationship because he actually looked a little bit like my dad looked when he was there was was like a family, not in a weird way, but you know when somebody just reminds you of somebody. And he's the only guy that I dated who wore like a black leather jacket.

And my dad used to wear a black leather jacket in the 90s when he was a bouncer. And he was a very masculine man as well. And I think I was projecting a lot of my anger and my resentment towards my dad onto that boyfriend. And he didn't deserve it because he wasn't my dad. And I think I wanted to take out that anger on him. And I feel really, really, really, really bad about that. I feel terrible. Is that the last long-term relationship you had? Yeah. And are you in touch with him?

No. relationship you had yeah and are you in touch with him no well maybe he'll be listening to this podcast and also i think that maybe what you've said there is such a sign of enlightenment and personal evolution because you have taken the responsibility for some of the dysfunction in such a self-aware way that I don't think you can see it as a failure or you can accept responsibility but I don't think you need to feel bad about it anymore Paris well it's a fine line isn't it because I also have to make sure that I'm not doing the same thing which is just further punishing myself and it being a low self-esteem thing where I take on all the blame, you know, because ultimately we were two people, you know, we were both adults. But also I'm not beating myself up about it because this stuff happened, right? My childhood was what it was. That relationship was what it

was. My parents were who they were at that time. I was who I was at that time in that relationship was what it was my parents were who they were at that time I was who I was at that time in that relationship it is what it is you know just in the same way that if you plant a tree in a certain place where it's at the side of a cliff so it has to grow towards the sunlight it's going to grow towards the sunlight so the tree may not be straight sorry it's a ridiculous metaphor but it's like gorgeous I struggle with relationships and it's just a fact you know I had a very weird introduction to sex and relationships as a child I had a very difficult relationship with my mother and my father growing up and I grew up with all of this sort of cultural conditioning telling me that I wasn't good enough as other people you know and

then also it's just like you know as a woman the world, but as a trans woman in particular, you're looking for intimacy, understanding, respect from men, you know, I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's like, you know, you roll up your sleeves kind of thing, you know, it's this stuff is really complicated. And so I think I've just learned to take a much more philosophical approach to it. But when I was younger, I remember feeling when I was at university, I remember I'd never had a boyfriend. And I remember laying in bed, Elizabeth, and holding myself and imagining what it would feel like for somebody to put their arms around me and tell me that they love me and kiss me. And I genuinely, genuinely thought that I was never going to feel loved because I thought that I was unlovable because there was something wrong with me because of who I was.

Isn't that awful? That's so sad. But that was really what I thought at that time. And I've been in three serious relationships in my 20s, you know, which I think is fairly standard for women today. So actually, that wasn't true. I know that I'm capable of inspiring love in people. And I know that I'm capable of feeling love for other people. So I don't think that anymore. And I've experienced intense love that some people never experienced in their lifetime. So the idea of being alone for the rest of my life genuinely doesn't scare me now. But I don't

think that will be the case. Anybody can fall in love at any time of their life you know I had a friend who fell in love in her 50s so I don't think it's the end of the road for me and I've got loads of time and you just got married you know exactly I met the love of my life at 39 so there's loads and loads of time and I got married and divorced and went through like terrible relationships and like awful online dating so of course you're if that's what you want, you will absolutely be with someone. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, Paris, for me, when I was dating,

when I was on the apps in that hellscape is online dating, there is so much of dating apps that is about performance and the game that you play before you even meet and then the games that you continue to play and the interest you have to try and keep and all of that sort of stuff and actually what I was longing for and what I think most humans longing for is for someone to accept me as I really am and to make me feel safe within that now I can only imagine how much more elevated the stakes are for a trans person where correct me if I'm wrong you spend have spent so much of your life performing according to what other people want to think of you and the longing to be

accepted for who you are how difficult is? How do you introduce that to a relationship? Well, in some ways, I feel that is, I'm not going to say it's easy dating as a trans person, it's absolutely not. But I would say that, yeah, the idea of, because I think a large part of transitioning is about encouraging people to see you the way you see yourself, and finding ways to do that. And I think that's something that I've been pretty successful at in my life. And I think that, listen, I'm really good at the early stages. I love flirting. I love having jokes with people. I love wordplay. You know, I'm a writer. I love chatting to people. I'm going to say it. I'm great on dates. I'm genuinely great on dates.

I'm a fabulous first date. You will fall in love with me. But it's the long-term relationship thing. That's the thing that I struggle with. So really, honestly, the early stages. And also the other thing as well, and I don't mean any of this to sound arrogant, I really don't. But again, it's just a fact. If a guy likes me and he's taken on board the journey that I've been on in terms of my gender, and he's cool with that. If you've got over that and he doesn't have an issue with that, then it becomes a bonus because I often find that people feel very strongly about me in the beginning before I've had a chance to sort of develop feelings for them because I really don't mean this to be arrogant, but I'm a bit of a strange flower, a rare bloom. If it doesn't work out, it's unlikely that he's going to meet somebody

quite like me again. I mean, we are out there, you know, in terms of trans women, but we are rare. And I think somebody who's doing what I'm doing in my life and the sort of career that I have, I don't have that problem with meeting people. If anything, I have the problem with people becoming a little bit obsessed with me

a little bit too soon. That's so interesting. I mean, you are a phenomenally beautiful woman. And I wonder if a lot of men are intimidated by your beauty, because they understand if they get to that stage, the strength that is required to get there. So you're not only beautiful, but you're strong as well. So this is the thing. So because I'm coming from that place of low self-esteem and not feeling good enough I actually don't realize sometimes but I have heard that from people and actually that's the reason a couple of things haven't worked out in the past couple of years is that guys that I've been with don't feel that they can keep up with me or they don't feel that they're good enough for me

isn't that hilarious well isn't it so funny I don't know who would be good enough for you to be quite honest but yeah well I do have very high standards I will say that as well so just to throw in an extra complication into the mix I have very high standards but kindness kindness is really up there you know so I don't know it's complicated for everybody isn't it but I think the fact that you have chosen relationships as one of your three failures is so telling because I can't, in fact, I don't know if anyone's ever chosen that before because most people would think,

yeah, I've had some shitty relationships and I've had some heartbreaking splits, but they wouldn't shoulder the blame so entirely themselves as to choose it as one of their failures. Yeah, I hate that. I really, really, really, really, really hate that though. So one of my exes, he doesn't speak to any of his exes. And he'd sort of said, you know, she was crazy. She was this, she was that. And now I'm just like, oh God, why did you take that at face value? But I remember when I got with him and I was really smitten with him.

I remember thinking, oh, he's a good guy and he's met all of these terrible women. And now I'm the good one that's come along. When actually I turned out to be quite toxic in that relationship. But he doesn't speak to any of his exes. And I speak to all of my exes and have a good relationship with them. And he's the only one that I don't speak to. And I think that's very interesting. I hate that young people split up and they say, oh, well, he's this, he's that, he's a dickhead. You know, I didn't like him anyway. And I just

think, well, you've been intimate with somebody and you've loved somebody and you've seen them vulnerable and they've seen you vulnerable. How can you just completely trash them as a person? And I get it because it's a defence mechanism and it's much easier to sort of demonize somebody when things are broken and I don't demonize people they're people at the end of the day and you know if it didn't work that doesn't mean that they're a terrible person and I'll be honest with you with that relationship that ended not in a great way it really hurts me to feel that somebody that I've been naked in front of somebody who who's heard my deepest, darkest fears, doesn't necessarily wish me well, wouldn't necessarily want to say hello to me in the street. I mean, maybe he does

in his head, maybe he's forgiven me in his head, but he just wants to keep his distance. And that's fair enough, you know, and I'm certainly not trying to reinitiate contact. It is what it is, we ended it and it's done. I would like to think that if you've loved someone that you could at least wish them well. And I do wish everybody that I've loved well. I do. I mean, if that's not the definition of an empath, I don't know what is. That is, again, so generous. But you've only got to that generosity by imagining what it's like for the other person.

Well, I'm too soft for my own good. That's what my dad would say. That's what my parents would say. You're too soft for your own good. What star sign are you? Capricorn okay i mean i'm a grudge holding scorpio so obviously every ex i've ever had is dead to me yeah oh no oh no i had no idea that i was speaking to a scorpio oh my gosh okay i'm a good one no no

no please don't say that i think scorpios have such a bad press you're gonna sting me at the end don't you no no only if you do me wrong I'm terrified now okay okay I won't I'm a nice person we're all friends don't sting me please don't sting me I promise you I wait I just believe that we're incredibly loyal and so if someone isn't loyal back we feel so hurt by that that we need to go into defense anyway this is not an astrology podcast much as I would love it to be but i promise i'm a good one and actually when they like redrew all the star signs it turned out i was a libra or something and i was i was borderline offended paris i really was okay they discovered a new galaxy or something i think libras i don't know i think that's a nice

one okay i think balance is good but you know you do you i've talked myself out of the possible cul-de-sac of this interview now by claiming to be a totally different astrological sign. Your third failure is deadlines, which I can't believe because you are so prolific that I can't believe you got away with being bad at deadlines. But tell me about that. Well, you know, I actually picked it because I didn't know how much we were going to talk about the book.

And I thought, well, this will give us an opportunity to talk about the book. So starting with that as an example, this was commissioned in like, I think it was 2014. Right. And we're 2021 now. So I think it's fair to say that I'm not great with deadlines. And a lot of that was because, you know, I was having nervous breakdowns and having toxic relationships. And I was revisiting a lot of trauma. So there were reasons for that. And thank God Penguin held on for me.

But I'm not the most organised of people and I procrastinate. What's your approach to writing, though? Because we started off this interview and you were talking about how you didn't want there to be any fat in your prose. And I imagine that takes a lot of editing and re-editing and redrafting. Is that part of the reason why deadlines come and go? Yeah. So I read Flaubert at university. I think we studied a sentimental education, but I actually read Madame Bovary. Is it Madame Bovary or Bovary? I never know. In my own time and was just obsessed with him because he was so neurotic and he used to deliberate over every single word. And that's when I was like, I want to learn French to a standard that I can sort of appreciate the care

that he took over this and the sort of the really crystal cut prose. I'm not there yet, but I hope to get there one day. And obviously all of the historical connotations of words change as well. So you will never really appreciate the care that he put into that writing. But I just think if you're going to do something, do it well. And I think it's almost like a sort of mindfulness. And also, I think it comes back to fear. I think it's Sadie Smith I might just be attributing loads of quotes to Sadie Smith that she didn't say so the internet will come after me she was saying the best time to think about changes for a book is five minutes before you go on a panel discussion right so as I'm still thinking of things that I want to change about my book and

it's really weird to me when people say oh you must feel so great because you finished the book and I'm like no in my mind it's not finished I'm like how many print runs are they going to be when the paperback I mean I'm literally going to be going into bookstores and adding in commas by hand you know I'm just somebody and I think again it comes from having very high standards and it comes from perfectionism which I think is at least in part influenced by that low self-esteem and feeling like things have got to be perfect in order for me to be okay and to exist in the world you know like mediocrity is not an option wow and is that the same with your journalism as well yes yeah and also you know the thing that I struggle with and I don't know if you're an introvert you may feel this too but I have a very good career you know, the thing that I struggle with, and I don't know if you're an introvert, you may feel this too, but I have a very good career. You know, like I realised that it's all

first world problems. I'm from a working class town. I've seen people really struggling physical jobs over the years. I know that there may be people listening to this. You just want to slap me on the face. I totally get that. So I'm not saying that I have a hard life, but I really struggle when I've got 20 different people wanting 20 different things on 20 different days from me, even if it's just a photo shoot, or it's a podcast, or it's a this or it's a that. You know, I've worked in offices before, where you get up, you go in every day at the same time, you know, what train you're getting, you know, what you're having for your lunch, you know, where you go for a drink after work,

you know, what sort of clothes that you'll be be wearing and you get into a routine and a rhythm right I can't deal with the spinning of the plays and I think that my career today has been oh you're doing this you're doing that you know I'm doing Elizabeth Day's podcast then you're doing a Guardian interview then you and it's all great stuff you know it's all fabulous stuff and it's all really fun and it looks fun from the outside but I just get really overwhelmed and when I've got too many things going in, I'm just like, I just shut down and I'm just like, I can't do anything. And it becomes a problem. And that's why really going forwards, I think I just want to write books. Oh, you know, every now and again, I'll come back. Yeah, I'm getting that actually. I feel like maybe we've been on a bit of a a similar journey yeah

I mean well that's really kind of you to say to even kind of obviously not not the not the you know as far as you know well you know stranger things strange things I I so agree though and I think when you are a writer or a podcaster or an author you're generally a freelancer so you're kind of in charge of your own business and sometimes I long for a gifted line manager who can be like you've got too much on your plate right now so I'm going to get someone else to do this bit but one has to be one's own manager and if you are someone like you who is incredibly sensitive who's always thinking of the other person who is very empathetic you probably don't want to say no either because you're so grateful and you don't want to let anyone down and then you've got the added thing

of like show me I'm worthy of being loved like show me I'm enough which is just a complete clusterfuck of emotions and no wonder you want to just go away and write books and by the way I really think you should I really hope that you're writing something right now are you well I don't know if I should talk about this because I want people to get excited about this book before talking about the next ones but I've got ideas shall we say I've definitely got ideas there was a period so I wrote some of this some of it I was up in Edinburgh staying with a friend some of it I wrote in the French countryside there was a period a couple of years ago where it was January and I think my housemate was working away I was staying up late and don't ask me why because it's

not my era and it doesn't relate to the book in any way shape or form but I love 80s pop music and I discovered do you know Tears of Fears yes I discovered one of their albums songs from the big table or songs from the big chair I think it is it's talking about you know a difficult sort of adolescence so I guess thematically there was a bit of a link but it was just one of those things that you could just put on in the background on repeat and and I just sort of went into like a trance and I really got into the writing process. And I was literally back in Nottingham in 2001. And it was so meditative. And I just lost myself in that world. And I've got a friend who's writing a book at the moment, actually, that's set in the Middle Ages. And when

I talked to her, I'm like, how are you? And she's like, yeah, I've just got back from the 1500s, because it's almost like you sort of go there and that's really what I enjoy and I enjoy coming out as well and talking about it and going to parties and you know being glamorous and stuff but I just don't want to do it every day I'm not the sort of person that you're going to see schmoozing with people down Shoreditch House every day that's just not me. I wanted to ask you and I don't want to end on this note because I want to end on something more positive, but I did want to ask you about being a high profile trans woman in the internet age. a judge on the Women's Prize for Fiction this year. And we long listed the brilliant novel, Detransition Baby by Tori Peters, who is the first trans woman to have been long listed.

And we didn't realise we were doing that. It's all in the quality of the work, the amount of bile and hatred and terrifying ignorance that she was subjected to. And the judges were also had a much smaller part to play but we were also sort of all tagged in these horrible things on twitter and i was just like i just can't get my head around it it just seems so obvious to me that the bigots are on the wrong side of history but i cannot imagine what you go through on a daily basis and i just wanted to ask how you cope with that well i mean i don't really go online as much anymore and I know other people in the public eye who've pulled back as well you know other writers Monroe Bergdorf deleted her twitter I don't really have any great answers I mean you know obviously as I've said in this podcast I'm

quite an empathic person and I just don't understand why people are so nasty I don't get it I mean I do get it because I've I've been nasty at different points in my life when I've been desperately unhappy. So perhaps I do understand it better than I'm admitting to here. But I think there are a lot of very unhappy people in the world. And that makes me sad. Because when I see that vitriol, I think, oh, God, it's another postcard from the depths of misery, isn't it? You know, because you don't do that, do you? If you've got a really happy, full, loving, meaningful life, you don't sit there abusing people on the internet. And so that just leaves me feeling there's obviously a lot of unhappy people in the country and the world. And I don't mean that in a patronising way. I mean, I think it's a real problem. And I don't want those people to feel that they want to act in a way like that, where

they feel that they've got to tear other people down. And I really wish that I had the answer, but I'm just dismayed at the direction that the country's gone in generally. And I remember when all of those talent shows came in, in the noughties, and people became famous for being nasty, like nasty judges. like Nasty Judges and Gordon Ramsay, you know, who's just going around swearing at people and reducing them to tears. And people absolutely love them for it. And I just can't get my head around it. I really, and obviously I'm in the minority because most people seem to be pretty hard-nosed about it

or just don't care or they're happy to turn a blind eye. So I don't know why things have become so toxic and nasty in general, Elizabeth, but it's not the direction I want them to go in. And I just, I was thinking about this, you know, people ask me, what can we do to be more sort of supportive of trans people? I don't know what to tell you other than to just be nice. Like don't bully people. And if you see other people being unpleasant, like do the right thing

and stick up for what's right because trans people make up less than 1% of the population. And these people pick on us as a group because they think they can get away with it. They literally do it because they aren't going to face any consequences. If you were a high profile author, for example, and you waded in and said some rather hurtful things about a group of people who already have it really tough and you start sharing really questionable ideas about their healthcare needs, you can get away with it because there's nobody in a position of power because we don't have trans people editing newspapers or running the book publishing houses. Increasingly, we're getting a voice now, but we're not in those

positions of power. So people feel that they can kick us with impunity. And I don't know what to do about that other than to say, do we want to live in a society where we're treating people like that? Or do we want to live in a society where we value manners and kindness and just trying to all get along and allow everybody to live their lives in peace? But I you know, I feel like I'm going to join hands with a group of people and sing I'd like to teach the world to sing. But I'm an idealist. What else can I say? And actually, I think that you're so right,

that the way to tackle all of this is not to scream about it on Twitter, but to actively put compassion back into the world. And that's what you're doing. And it's not Namby-pamby, and it's not singing kumbaya. It's actually a really brave, courageous thing to do. Because as you say, we're going against the tide by doing that, the sort of countervailing orthodoxy that being mean and not caring about other people and being out for yourself is the way to go and I just really admire you for standing up against that and for being such a kind lovely thoughtful generous and open-hearted person I just thank you thank you for being you thank you well I haven't

always been that person I will say that so thank thank you very, very, very, very much. And thank you. I think it ended on a positive note, actually. I think that's a positive note. I think so too. Paris Lees, you are a wonder and everyone must rush out and buy what it feels like for a girl. But I just cannot thank you enough for coming on How you so much. Today's episode of How to Fail is sponsored by CB2, purveyors of feel good CBD. We all know that life's speeding up again, and it's really important not to let your wellness take a backseat. Research conducted by leading UK CBD brand CB2 found that half of UK adults have had their sleep affected by the pandemic. Here's the good news. CB2 have hundreds of reviews about how their CBD oil has changed people's lives for quality sleep, managing symptoms of stress and anxiety, as well as supporting body aches and pains. And I have to say, their CBD oil really did sort out my sleep.

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