How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S12, BONUS EPISODE How to Fail: Holly Willoughby

Episode Date: November 3, 2021

Oh what a truly lovely bonus episode I have for you today! I'm so delighted that I get to welcome the one and only Holly Willoughby onto the podcast. As the co-presenter of ITV's This Morning, she is a combination of daytime TV icon, national best friend and highly infectious giggler (if you need a boost, just YouTube this). But she's also now a BESTSELLING AUTHOR - her book Reflections was published last week and swiftly shot to the number one slot on Amazon. And she recently launched her own lifestyle and wellness platform, Wylde Moon.Holly joins me to talk about her failure to be present, her failure to to live by her own set of beliefs and falling into the trap of meeting other people's expectations and her failure 'to be an individual'. Along the way we discuss fame, body image and 'repackaging jealousy as possibility' (I know! It's a quote from her book! So good!). It's such a wonderful, open-hearted conversation and I'm so grateful to Holly for sharing her beautiful vulnerability with me.--You can buy Reflections by Holly Willoughby here--My new novel, Magpie, is out now. You can order it here.---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Holly Willoughby @hollywilloughbyElizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamx. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. This very special bonus episode of How to Fail is sponsored by PageSmith. Give the gift of poetry.

I love this sponsor so much because PageSmith is a new service that allows a reader to create their own personalized poetry collection by choosing from a curated selection of eight themes and then adding a fully personalized title, a dedication and a cover. So it's basically your own poetry book. I've used it myself. It really is the most perfect gift for the person who has everything. it really is the most perfect gift for the person who has everything. You can pick from a selection of eight essential themes from love, loss, companionship and family to nature, well-being, new horizons and women's voices. You then determine what will make up the book by adding your own

dedication and picking a beautiful cover and choosing your own title. The custom-made high quality hardback book will then be printed and shipped straight to the receiver's door. PageSmith really is for everyone looking for a thoughtful gift. I promise you do not have to be a poetry buff to use it. In fact, PageSmith introduced me to some poems I'd never come across. So go to pagesmithbooks.com that's pagesmith p-a-g-e-s-m-i-t-h pagesmithbooks.com to create your own personalized poetry collection now listeners of the podcast get 10% off with the code howtofail at checkout that's pagesmithbooks.com Thank you very much to Paige Smith. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right.

This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. To introduce my guest today, I'd like to start with a personal anecdote. When I was choosing what outfit to get married in recently, I had the help of my beloved best friend, Emma. Because I can sometimes be my own worst critic when looking in the mirror, I needed Emma there to tell me what suited me. What finally convinced me that my dress was in fact the one was when Emma said, you look like Holly Willoughby. For me, Holly Willoughby is undoubtedly beautiful, but her beauty

goes beyond surface level. As the co-host of This Morning since 2009, she's become the nation's kind-hearted best friend or big sister, a woman who has empathy by the bucket load for the guests on her sofa, and who isn't averse to dissolving into hysterical giggles too. She is trusted by us to the extent that anything she wears on screen will almost immediately sell out. It's no coincidence that the second most popular Google search of her name is Holly Willoughby skirt this morning. Growing up in West Sussex, Willoughby was spotted by a model scout as a teenager and fell into children's TV presenting almost by accident.

Her CV includes stints on Ministry of Mayhem, where she met one of her closest friends, Fern Cotton, The Voice, I'm a Celebrity and Dancing on Ice. Willoughby turned 40 in February and has entered a new phase in her career. She recently launched her own lifestyle and wellness platform, Wild Moon, and last month her debut book Reflections was published. Subtitled Life Lessons on Finding Beauty Inside and Out, it included chapters on feminism, anger, guilt, and intuition. I think one of my superpowers is knowing that I'm flawed and not being scared by that, she writes. I've learned that those cracks and breaks you inevitably pick up during the difficult times heal stronger. The more breaks and cracks there are, the more

opportunity there is to fill them with life lessons. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Holly Willoughby, welcome to How to Fail. Oh my goodness, Elizabeth, that nearly made me cry. welcome to how to fail oh my goodness Elizabeth that nearly made me cry like that's really emotional hearing that whole thing I mean firstly the wedding thing was incredible like the thought that somebody would bring on the one of the most special days one of the most important things you're going to wear so that was just amazing to start off with and then hearing everything else and actually hearing you talk about the book and saying things out loud from it it's a really strange feeling for me because I have never written a book like this where it's about me and I did it completely on my own and it's been in my head and it's really weird to then suddenly share it with other people to read but actually hearing somebody else read a part

out loud that's the first time that's happened I'm really actually surprised at the reaction that I had to it. So thank you. Oh, Holly, you're so lovely. Well, that was lovely. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. The pleasure is entirely mine. And I should explain that we're recording this before your book's been published,

but it'll come out after it's been published, which is why it's the first time you've heard someone read from it. And I really loved reading it, Holly, because you can tell that it's so from the heart and it feels so authentic. And you write in your acknowledgements that your daughter, Belle, who is a great reader, said that she read the first chapter and it made her feel safe. And I just thought that was how I felt reading it. And clearly, like, so much thought has gone into it. And it is so far

from a celebrity memoir that you might expect. What did you want to achieve by writing it? It's a good question. And my lovely editor, Zena, asked me, she goes, you know, with this book, what would success look like for you? Would it be a number one bestseller? How would it be? And I was like, you know, in a weird way, and I know this is easy to say, and obviously you like things to be a success, but in a weird way for me for me a writing a book on my own in the first place I think was something as a child with dyslexia that I never ever thought would be possible so just to get to this point was success in itself I wanted it to be something that somebody would give to a friend that they'd go oh my god I read this you should read this you might get something from it or it

might resonate with you in some way but to to be honest, that moment with Belle, when I said, because she'd obviously seen me writing it and she'd been around it. And I was like, well, you can read the first chapter if you like. And then when she said that, she said, and I said, what do you think? And she went, well, it made me feel safe. And oh my God, I just, that was it. And I thought, that's it. That's the success of this book. In that moment, my job here is done. And it was kind of the greatest review I could possibly ever get. So it's quite nice going into this, having that in my back pocket, I guess. It feels so encompassing and inclusive as a book. And you also, you don't shy away from really difficult topics. Like I said, in the introduction, the introduction, there are chapters on anger and

on control. And there's this amazing phrase that I'd never come across before that's really helped me about repackaging jealousy as possibility. Can you tell us more about that particular idea? It came to me because I think we are obsessed with comparison, really. And sometimes a bit of healthy competition is good because it keeps us nudging along, if you like, like, it's good to have a dream and a good to have those sorts of things. But I think sometimes when we are phased, and I don't want to use this to batter social media with because I exist quite a lot on social media, and I love it. But there are parts of it that are tricky and difficult. And I think seeing other people living out extraordinary, glamorous lives, or it can be that, or it can be a friend that maybe suddenly has met the man of her dreams and you're single and you're finding that really difficult.

Like, I think jealousy is a really natural emotion. And I think quite often these emotions, these difficult emotions, as you said there, whether it's anger or jealousy or anything, are things that we try to suppress that we're somehow bad for feeling them and we shouldn't be feeling them but I think sometimes if you look at something like jealousy what it actually does is show you that there is something that you would like to be in your life that currently isn't but instead of seeing it as a bad thing as something that you're bad for feeling like it because you're jealous of that other thing you could you could sort of go right well obviously in my life I would like that because it's making me feel bad I haven't got it in fact it's making me dislike that other person because I haven't got what they've got but actually if I repackage this in my head quite simply they're showing me that there is all this possibility

that there's not an infinite amount of things out there like there is something for everybody if you want to go out and get it or work towards it. It's not going to say it necessarily happens, but the possibility is there. So I think actually it can be quite a hopeful feeling. I loved that because I also think you operate in the highest echelons of TV and you are a daytime TV presenter and one of our most beloved. But traditionally speaking and wrongly,

that forum has been a forum for the media to pit women against each other. And I was just thinking when I was researching this interview, how well you seem to have navigated that because I don't ever get that impression when I think of you. And I think that you have avoided that so well by kind of embracing the friendship of other women. Is that something that happened naturally or were you consciously trying to oppose that kind of media narrative? have been thrown into the mix when it comes to me about other women. I hate it. And I hate it because the women in my life are so important. And they always have been from being, I mean, I went to an all girls school and I remember then people go, oh, but girls schools are bitchy. And I know some people's experiences of that are that, but mine, I had a group of really good girlfriends and I just remember laughing constantly, like just having these girls around me, having these real friendships. And then, you know, my sister and I are extremely close. When I moved out of home, I moved in with her,

first of all, my mum and I were, so these sort of female relationships, my girlfriends that I have now, like I need them more than ever. And actually the older I get, the more important those relationships are to me. I remember on this morning when Phil couldn't do the show for some reason, he must've been working on something else. and they were trying to find a male co-host to host the show with me and they were like oh you know who would you like to do here's a list of people and I sort of looked down this list and any one of them would have been lovely and some of them I'd done the show with before and I remember saying can we not get Christine Blakely in and they were like oh well uh and I was like well normally and I was like I know normally but it would be really lovely like she's a really good

friend of mine and she's an excellent presenter and I just think it would be nice and I was like well normally and I was like I know normally but it would be really lovely like she's a really good friend of mine and she's an excellent presenter and I just think it would be nice and it was lovely and I just think that sometimes people just don't think I think I think some places people don't think it's always been done a certain way but I don't know I'd be totally and utterly lost without my girlfriends I need them yeah it's so funny you say that because I remember when Tess Daly and Claudia Winkle were put together for Strictly Come Dancing it was revolutionary having two women funding a tv program like well why would that be there's so much I want to ask you about I can feel it in my voice that I'm sort of trying to speed up my voice because there's so much amazing territory

to cover but in Reflections you write about a turning point in your life when you went to do I'm a Celebrity in Australia in 2018. Can I ask what happened? What was going on in your life then? And what happened to make it a turning point? I think the thing about Australia was that it was the first time in a very, very long time where I was completely on my own for a period of time.

And it was sort of three weeks, I think I was there before the kids came out. And I remember I got off the plane, I had this lovely apartment, you know, I was nervous about the show. But what really struck me more than anything else was that I sort of shut my door and I was on my own. It was like that moment in Home Alone where you're like, I made my family disappear. I just didn't know what to do with myself. And I just thought, God, I don't remember the last time I've shut a door and somebody hasn't been asking me to do something for them or calling me from upstairs or someone's having an argument or whatever it is, or I've got to get out and go to this place or there's a car

outside or, you know, it was just a really incredible moment for me. And I thought, right, I'm here and I'm just going to do some stuff that I really want to do. And obviously being in Australia, you know, you didn't have to walk that far as soon as you'd sort of left the building where I was living. And every other shop seemed to be this kind of alternative healing or reflexology or kinesiology or whatever it was. And I just thought, do you know what? I'm just going to walk down here and I'm going to try everything because I've got time and no one's going to stop me. And I did some weird stuff and some things that felt a bit strange and I didn't really know what was going on. But there was this one lady that I met and she was a kinesiologist and it sort of transpired quite quickly that

whatever you believe, but it felt to me that there was something more than traditional kinesiology going on. And she definitely began to say something. I'm sorry, Holly, what is kinesiology? Definitely began to say some things about me. I'm sorry, Holly. What is kinesiology? Well, it sort of works where she did it very different. Traditionally, I think what it is, is where they kind of, you can do it if you've got allergies against something.

So I went to see this guy in London a long time ago, and he had these test tubes of yeast, and he sort of would hold them up. And it's almost like a muscle test. They sort of literally hold like a test tube against your arm, push your arm down. If your arm falls down really quickly quickly it means you've got some sort of allergy so I don't know how it works half the time with this stuff I sort of don't question I just go along for the ride so I walked in and I'd had some experience of kinesiology needless to say this woman didn't have any test tubes and it was like an emotional body test type thing and

she was saying things and my body was reacting and eventually I just felt this kind of unzipping of my chest and like an opening and it was a bit like Pandora's box I guess because once it opened it was like I couldn't put it all back in the sort of organized chaos that I had packaged it all up for a long time it was eye-op. And when I came back to London, I thought, well, something happened there. And I think probably I've got the time and the headspace in order to just go with this a little bit more. And the more I did it, whether it was alternative therapies or whether it was more traditional therapy, the better I felt and the more in control of things I felt and the more in touch with myself I'd felt. And I think I just really discovered that I'd kind of numbed a big section of my life in order to sort of coast through it smoothly.

And I think that I just was done doing that. That's so interesting. And I could relate to a lot of it. that kind of disconnection that I think a lot of women certainly experience a certain time in their lives when there's so much going on and it's almost like you don't have time to excavate all of the things that might be going on subconsciously because you're but we're going to get on to that and your failures I wanted to ask more broadly about turning 40 because I know that that was a watershed moment for me. And by the way, welcome to your best decade yet.

Thank you. Yeah. How did it feel for you? I'm already loving being 40 and I'm not sort of a whole year into it yet, but I definitely have found every decade I've got to know myself more. It's like you're born with this body and you have absolutely no instruction manual and as the years tick by you begin to unlock parts of it and go oh this is how it works and I really like it youth is gorgeous and beautiful and all the rest of it but I think sometimes youth has the monopoly on what's the best part of your life because there are so many other factors now that I appreciate more I think so I'm excited about it I think the weirdest thing for me was

I remember my mum turning 40 so I had exactly the same thing so it's odd because I've got it's the first time it's like when you're a kid you think your parents are so much older than you and now I'm like oh my god I'm at that age my mum was like I remember being a kid and my mum being 40 and I sort of really overemphasized that on, I remember being a kid and my mum being 40. And I sort of really overemphasized that on the day by wearing the dress on my birthday that my mum had worn to her 40th birthday party. And it was completely surreal, but also it felt amazing because I just thought, oh yeah, this is what feels good. That like real connection, that real lineage between mother and daughter and the passing of time and me entering that next phase of my life and I just I don't know I'm happy 40s good so far

and final question before we get on to your failures you mentioned at the very beginning that you have dyslexia yeah and yeah you wrote this book and I was really interested in the process of writing the book because I understand that you did it through voice recordings. Is that right? The whole thing. Yeah. So I just went on to voice notes on my phone. And actually, when I first started doing them, they weren't really for a book at all. It's a bit like that thing when people say, oh, write everything down and it gets it out of your head. And if you don't want anyone to see it, burn it or put it in a diary. So I guess it's like a diary writing. And for me, I guess

as life goes on, I'm best at, I mean, I'm not the most articulate person. I stumble and I definitely use the wrong words in certain occasions, but I'm sort of at peace with that in my own head. As long as everyone understands what I'm saying, I don't care too much. However, this was just me sort of opening my head and pouring out how I was feeling and just kind of a long, boring sort of spiel of a speech. And so my phone is full of all these voice recordings. And then Felicity, who is this lovely book agent who you know as well, who's a friend of mine, I sent them all to her. And it was one of the most nerve wracking moments of my life because I thought

oh my god is she just going to turn around and go yeah they're great maybe they need a bit more maybe let's hand them over to a ghostwriter and see what see what they can do with them and actually she was brilliant and she just went no it's great I'm just going to get it all transcribed and then once it's down have a little look and see how you want to piece it together and and that was it and it was lovely to have someone believe in me. It just goes to show you that there are different ways to get to the same results. That's amazing. The way your mind works to be able to say all of it out loud.

And I think that's why, because it reads so beautifully and fluently. And I think that's why it also feels like having a chat with your friend. Yeah. When I was doing the audio book, it was really hard to read because I realized I talk really really quickly so it's written how I literally spoke it so when you have to re-speak it you're suddenly going my god why don't I breathe do I ever draw breath when I'm talking but yeah no I actually really enjoyed doing it and I'm very proud of it you should be and I'm sure by the time this airs it will have been a massive bestseller so I'm putting that out there we're going to manifest it for you let's talk about your failures which I can tell you've really thought deeply about them and I'm so honored by by that. Thank you. The first failure is your failure to live in the

present. Tell us about that. I think a lot of people feel like this. I think it's probably the hardest thing to do is actually really sit there and think, right, how am I feeling right now? And I think a lot of the time we chase and we race because we're sort of running away. we chase and we race because we're sort of running away. And I know that I'm incredibly guilty of this. And again, you know, I talk about this in the book in a chapter about detachment and I'm really good at detaching. And although it's sort of a failing, it's also, I think, an incredibly powerful tool that I've used in order to, I mean, I want to say survive and cope, but I don't want everybody to then panic about me because people have different levels of thing and I'm absolutely fine. But I did definitely use it as a way of getting through day-to-day life a bit easier. And the only way

I could describe it is that feeling of when you get in a car and you drive somewhere and then you arrive at the destination, you're like, oh my God, I know I got here safely. And I obviously know which way I'm driving, but I literally don't even know how I got here. And I think it's that distracting yourself with lots of stuff so you don't actually have to sit with your own thoughts and feelings because it's easier. time when you were starting out on this morning your children were really young and I think you maybe even hadn't had Belle by then do you think that part of that detachment or disconnection was that you were just paddling furiously underneath the surface and you didn't really have time to analyze your own needs definitely I say this to Belle all the time I had two under two at one point and I was back at work and I'm like she, she's like, what was I like as a baby? I'm like, Belle, I can't remember. I mean, I literally cannot remember. It's only when I go through, thank God I took loads of photos because you were, I was just getting through it all because it was just madly and insanely busy. and it's not that I'd go back and change it or do anything differently because I think having a young family it's just difficult regardless of whatever else is going on in your life

but I think that what we probably need to be a little bit careful of is displaying our spinning plates as a kind of badge of honor sometimes because that's all well and good but you do need to have that balance and you need to offset that with a bit of downtime and just a bit of checking in time yes I've had a massive realization about that recently I think because of the pandemic and everything that's happened over the last almost two years now in the I've got drive which I'm really so grateful to have, and I've got ambition, and that's part of my motivation. But I feel like sometimes I'm running a race against myself. And whilst I'm busy trying to do things, I don't have enough time left over to live life.

Do you relate to that feeling? I do. I mean, I've always, when it comes to sort of work-life balance, funnily enough, I do think looking back, I pretty much have done really well with that. And I think I drive people mad that I work with. And I definitely know that I am like little Miss No is what I'm known as because I sort of turned down an awful lot of stuff. And I walk away from an awful lot of stuff if it feels like it's getting too much. So I've always been really protective of that because I know that I'm not capable. And actually, this is on a like sort of functioning on already a level of doing too much. So I think that I've always been aware of it. But I think

there's still room to do better when it comes to pulling back from stuff like that. And I've always had good rules in place, like, no matter what time I work to, and normally, you know, with this morning, I'm kind of back sort of lunchtime. So I'm really lucky like that. But there are times if I'm working in the afternoon, I make sure that I get home on the dot of five o'clock. So it's like tea time, bath, bed. And I always do that. I mean, sometimes when I can't, but the majority of the time, I sort of fight really viciously for that, even if it literally means me downing tools and walking off the set. And I'm sure there are people at times that go, Oh oh my God, I can't believe she's doing that. But I really have to hold onto that because otherwise there's too much opportunity for that stuff to slip away. And then the person

that goes gray inside is you because you're the one that hasn't got that balance right. And did you know how to do that before you were a mother? Because I just need to learn your ways. How do you know? How do you know when to learn your ways like how do you know how do you know when to say no and how do you know how much time you need because I imagine you get offers all of the time and some of them must be so tempting yeah no it's how do you do it I don't know I mean definitely being a mum helped because I find it easier to prioritize the kids over myself so those decisions to leave on the dot of five, whatever it was, or to down two or say no,

when I'm doing it for somebody else, it's easier than for me. So becoming a mom made those things way easier. But I think I used to be very, very instinctive when I was younger and I could make decisions and I could see things quite clearly. It was kind of right. I know what I'm doing. And then I sort of had this gray patch in the middle where I definitely lost sight of

that and let everything else come in and influence decisions and all sorts of stuff. And I sort of lost sight of everything. And I think I'm starting to get it back now. It's like a practice. The more you do it, the easier it becomes, I think. And sometimes you just got to go with that almost. I think a quite good thing is to go, right, what's my immediate reaction to something like this? And then sit with it, go around the houses, and then come back again, and then look at your first decision. And I bet you that's often the one that you go with. Talking of the instinct and the intuition you had when you were younger, brings me back to another passage in your book, where you talk about the fact that you were a model as a teenager, and you to Sydney and you met with a booker in Sydney, Australia.

And they said something about your weight. Yeah. Can you tell us about that? Because it's such a powerful story. So I'd been on a gap year, really, I guess. I thought I was going to go off to university, which I never did. I ended up doing a bit of open university. But I was on this year and I was like, right,

I'm going traveling. And I had a brilliant time. I'd been to India and Malaysia and Australia and New Zealand. It was just amazing. Saw so many wonderful things and had a real life experience. And I got to Sydney and I thought, well, the London agency were like, we'll go and see this booker because maybe you could stay out there and do some work or get some money before you get to university. I thought, brilliant idea. So I went and saw them. They all seemed very nice. And they were like, right, great. Look at your book. And

off I went. And then I called my London agent to say, how did that go down? Was everything all right? And she said, yeah, no, everything was fine. But they said, they'll put your weight down to healthy eating whilst traveling. I was just like what what did you say like it was the last thing I thought they were of all the possibilities that wasn't one that had ever entered my head as an issue weirdly and I think because you know I was really really young I was kind of quite a late developer like now I get I like I'm very curvy I've got hips and a bum and boobs but like really back then I was really kind of straight up and down and wafey. Like, you know, I was the last girl in the class to even think about buying a bra, let alone being

known as curvy. So it just completely took me by surprise. And I remember thinking then, and this is why I think that instinctively I was onto something good. I remember thinking, I'm not sure this is for me because I thought to myself, I'm going to have I was onto something good. I remember thinking, I'm not sure this is for me because I thought to myself, I'm going to have to make a decision here. If I want to do this, am I just going to have to whittle my body down into the shape of something that's deemed appropriate for an industry that clearly I literally don't fit in? This was a long time ago and I think that there's a lot of people in that world have a great experience that I had some really amazing times and the agency that looked after me were very protective of me. And this was just one experience. But I think I knew then that it

wasn't for me. And I sure as hell knew that I wasn't going to be changing my diet or doing something that would have been unhealthy to try and succeed in a world that wasn't right for me. been unhealthy to try and succeed in a world that wasn't right for me. Which is such an example of your strength of character at that age I think it's really impressive but I wonder through the years because we've been talking about that sense of detachment and how that's sometimes necessary for survival and I imagine for you part of that necessity is that everything you do garners so much scrutiny or so much opinion and that includes how you look and your physicality but it feels like everyone has an opinion on it and that must be so odd and I don't think I could cope and I wonder how you do cope and is it that level of detachment? Yeah. And that's why sometimes detachment is a

good thing. Like, I don't think it's all bad. And I think as long as you can pinpoint where you detach from, and sometimes, you know, the noise is so loud and so deafening, and it comes from so many different places that it's almost like you can't hear it anymore because it cancels itself out. And I think that you end up sort of protecting the opinions that are coming from important places, from your friends or your parents or my husband, or I sort of listen to advice from other people. But the only stuff that really goes in is from people that really know me. I think the rest, you just have to go like the good and the bad. You sort of just have to go well that's lovely and I'll take that on

board but I won't let it sink too deep. Have you ever been hurt by something by a public opinion? Yeah definitely I mean I'm you know god I'm not made of steel like things do go through I mean I remember really early in my career I was described as a vapid blonde and I don't know what was worse the fact that I then had to go and Google what vapid actually meant. I was like, is that a good thing? Is that nice? I think being nice. And then I was like, oh, no, that's not nice.

Okay, fine. But I don't think that person was on their own. I think that was what a lot of people saw when they first looked at me. And I think to be fair, it takes a long time for people to get to know you. We all judge people from what we see. And we like to drop people into these lovely pigeonhole boxes that we are know and understand and that was mine and also I think that in a way you're hoist with your own

petard because live tv is so hard I say that as someone who did it for the first time last year it's so hard and it's even harder to make it seem effortless, which is what you do, which is what both you and Philip Schofield are so gifted at. And so I think sometimes people can mistranslate that and they don't see the skill because that ironically is part of the skill. But I wanted to ask you about live tv in terms of that failure to live in the present is that part of the appeal for you of live tv because you have to be so present when you do it yeah you do and I've noticed this it's like there's nothing else you can focus on otherwise it will eat you up and spit you out the other side like it takes absolutely no prisoners almost

to the point of you live so much in the now, you are living by seconds because there's a hard count to the weather and the weather will come bearing down on you and you'll get taken off air. So there is nothing that sort of pulls you into pinpoint focus of living in the now than live telly. So I think probably, yeah, that probably is the draw for me. And I also know that you have started meditating. Does that help? Yes, it does. I mean, meditation was a world I didn't think I was welcome in really, purely because I sort of thought there is no way I'm going to be able to switch off my head. This is not for me. I will sit there and I'll spend 20 minutes thinking about everything under the sun

and I'll come out that going, well, that was pointless. I could have put the dinner on. minutes thinking about everything under the sun and I'll come out that going well that was pointless I could have put the dinner on but then I read this brilliant book by Will Williams have you spoken to him ever you should know I should yeah and he wrote this meditation book and he used to be in the music industry and that kind of chewed him up and spat him out the other side and he was looking for something to sort of help him in his head and meditation was what worked for him and he basically talks about the fact that you don't have to try and switch your head off in fact you just have to go with it part of it is almost like fight club is like don't talk about fight club I can't overanalyze it too much because basically I overanalyze everything I think I've probably got a bit of a control freak streak in me so I have to like when somebody says is it working for you I'm like oh I don't really want to think about it but I

think it is over the year and a half I would say yes it is definitely working for me but I try not to overanalyze or think about it I just try to experience it but I think what it does do is it gives me space in what is a very crammed world. I love that, not overanalyzing it, because I feel like that when I'm writing a book. I don't really want to talk about the idea because I feel very protective of the space. You need the space to allow the creativity to flourish.

And it sounds like it's really similar. And I've never heard anyone express that. So thank you. Let's move on to your second failure, which is your failure to live by your own set of beliefs so what do you mean by that I think that there's almost like a set of beliefs a rule book that we're all given and almost like you're born you go to school you go to college you might go to university you meet someone you fall in love you get married you get married, you buy a house, you have kids. Now, obviously, I know that that's a very

generalizing view of life, but that's what's sort of out there in front of you. And within all those little moments that you're expected to tick off your list of life, there's sort of a small list of rules for each one of those. And that dictates what's expected from you and what you're meant to do. And sometimes those things just don't necessarily feel right. They don't necessarily feel like what you're meant to be doing, but you sort of end up doing them anyway, because that's what everybody else is doing. And I think there are moments in my life sometimes where I think, I wish I'd just gone with my own set of rules on this and not what somebody else expected of me,

because I probably would have done a much better job or been happier yeah does that involve your work as well do you think that you were pigeonholed in a certain way especially because you came up through children's tv and I remember having this conversation with Fern Cotton about how that's how you were thought of for a really long time you were sort of thought of as a child yourself even though you were a grown woman no definitely there is no doubt that if it wasn't for Phil Schofield I definitely wouldn't be on this morning now because I think everyone around him at that time when he suggested my name they were like what no all right she'll be all right the fashion bit but there's no way she could have

interviewed the prime minister and I remember when I got the job and I totally only have him to thank for that and his belief you know literally week one I had to interview the prime minister and I remember thinking in my head oh my god I can't do this I can't do this they know I can't do this they know I can't do this and I panicked so much about it and I remember speaking to the producer who was like really amazing and helpful. I was like, don't worry, I'm going to help you through this. And let me help you write the questions. And I was like, okay, thank you.

And, you know, the first time you end up sort of reading their questions and it's like a puppet. Your mouth is moving and somebody else's words are coming out. And then the next time I was like, do you know what? I watched it back and I thought, that's not really me asking those questions. And I'm using words that I probably don't really understand. And actually, I can tell because they don't sit well in my mouth. And I just thought, why are you being so scared of being you? Because the majority of people that are watching this morning are people like I was watching this morning before I was on this morning.

And I remember being on maternity leave and thinking, oh, my God, even though I thought the show was amazing before, this is actually the greatest show in the world because it's my friend. And I thought, why am I catering for a set of beliefs of what I think a presenter should have when interviewing a prime minister? Why don't I just ask them the questions that I really want to ask them? Because I think that's probably what the majority of people would want to know. And I think once I'd got over that hurdle in my career of just going it doesn't matter just be you just be you because guess what you can do you better than doing someone else that will work for you because guess what is you that was really helpful for me. Do you feel as well that it is also historically what we might perceive of as predominantly, quote unquote, female skill sets, so empathy, being able to converse and connect, like they've sort of been sidelined by institutionalized sexism.

Let's just put the blame at that door. Yeah. And so also it's about kind of reclaiming our female power in a way. Yes. No, I totally agree. reclaiming our female power in a way. Yes. No, I totally agree. There is no doubt in the working environment that success for a very long time has looked like a man and that predominantly what is traditionally seen as masculine emotions are the ones that you have to have in order to succeed. And, you know, that can be, I don't know, within my line of work, for example, crying on set when you're

interviewing somebody was deemed for a long time as a very unprofessional thing to do. However, I couldn't stop it. I still do it now. And I'm fine with it now because I know that people are watching in certain interviews and they're feeling it too. And I'm not afraid to feel anymore, but I was to begin with. and sometimes it would make it a lot worse when you're trying I mean you must know what it's like when you're trying not to cry and it's often the panic creeps in and then you sort of you end up sitting there and you can't say anything because if you open your mouth you just know you're going to burst into tears and again that again is somebody else's rule book that's not mine like for me showing emotion or feeling isn't a sign of

weakness and it isn't a sign of somebody that's unprofessional either. So therefore I'm going to keep practicing my own set of beliefs. I love hearing that because I totally agree. And actually as someone who has cried on this podcast, I think it's a sign of respect. It's a sign that you have heard and listened to and honored someone's experience of something really sensitive yeah you feel it yeah you describe empathy in the book as one of your superpowers and I think it's really interesting for empathetic people when it comes to connection because at the same time as that's your life force, you also have to protect your energy so carefully. Because I imagine like when you get in a taxi cab, if you're not careful, Holly, you'll just be expending all of that energy hearing everyone's life stories on your way into work. How have you dealt with that?

Well, funnily enough, I wish I'd known this a long time ago. Do you know know it's not so much sort of people coming up to you and telling you stuff because actually I sort of love all of that but it's moments the time I find it really difficult is sometimes and it's the same reason I can't watch scary movies is because I get so emotionally connected to it that I almost feel like it's happening to me and it's not an enjoyable experience. And I have it with sometimes stories or sometimes people that I'm talking to. And it's almost like I totally take on their pain and it's not a nice feeling. And sometimes I just have to remind myself that it's not mine. And it's really simple and it sounds a little bit bonkers,

but sometimes I'm just like, this feeling now this isn't actually yours this doesn't actually belong to you so you can just let this one go and like that's really helped me because then I'm not just carrying around all this stuff because you can't help it but is that very difficult when it comes to your children so if your child's having a rough time at school I imagine it would be so hard I could never like no that is a completely different thing I'm talking about sort of work things here when I'm saying that or like people that I don't know say no no no when it comes to the kids no god no I mean pile it on just keep filling up my head of all like just bring it on there's nothing you can do about

that I'm afraid that is just being a parent. You just got to suck it up and hopefully survive it and come out the other side. All right. Tell us a little bit about your friend, Phil, Philip Schofield, because it is like one of the loveliest relationships on television. I mean, yes. Why do you love him? Like what makes your friendship so special? I don't know. I think when somebody really believes in you and they don't have a lot of evidence to prove them why they should, they just do. And they really fight your corner.

Like right from the get, get, go, you never ever forget that. And he very early on in my career, as I said earlier on with this morning, was the one fighting for me to get that job. And even then, live telly, two and a half hours is a long time to be doing telly. And I think for the first sort of, well, five, six years, which is a really long time, I was learning. It was like an apprenticeship. And he was happy and willing to keep teaching me and showing me and guiding me and not in a kind of putting it on me it was me

looking to him going all right is that okay and I was like a sponge and that must have made his day that bit more complicated like we've all got busy lives if somebody came into that studio now and I felt like I had the next six years to train them up as nice as I am sometimes I feel like oh my god really but he never did he never did and even to day, there's still moments that I go, we'll be watching a video and I'll be like, oh, you come out of this one because there'll be something in my head going, I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. He's always got it. He's always got me.

He's hugely supportive. And we've got the same sense of humor, like our brains work at the same speed. I hope he's not insulted by that. But you know what I mean? Like we just have a really good time together. It's a real real friendship and I'm very lucky because we spend an awful lot of time in each other's pockets yeah after you come off air does the conversation continue like would you voice note each other during the afternoon and stuff yeah like all the time I mean all the time like I see him all the time I mean he came over I gave him a sound bath the other night which he

was really into like he comes over I see him we go on bike rides together I mean my husband like laughs at us as we both trundle off with our cycle helmets on and off we bimble and I think sometimes people see us out and about and they're like is this being filmed is this some sort of an deck joke but no we do you think we'd be sick of the sight of each other, but it hasn't happened yet. And do you still get nervous when you do a certain interview or a certain segment on this morning? Like, can you remember the last time that you felt really anxious about someone you were interviewing? Not on this morning, I don't think.

And mainly that's because I've got Phil next to me. But I feel like I know that place inside out and back to front. And from the production to front and from the production to the team on the floor there's a lot of support there in what you're doing the last time I think I felt crippling oh my god ground eat me up and solid me now I don't know what to do myself was that first show when I was in the jungle because I was you know stepping into Ant's shoes and keeping them warm for him and it was such an important show that people loved it. I really didn't want to screw it up.

So I felt like that was probably the last time I was so nervous because I knew the onslaught was coming. Like I knew that it was going to be disappointing because it wasn't Ant stood there with Dex. So I was sort of, you were in a kind of lose-lose situation really. That was probably the last time I felt the most scared. And how do you deal with anxiety, but then also after you've done a show like that,

and there are going to be people with opinions about it, how do you deal with those as well? Do you insulate yourself from them? I don't read reviews of my books and stuff now because I've just learned that I can't cope with it. Which is mad, isn't it? Because if anybody is reviewing your book and saying a bad thing like sometimes you just have to go someone will always find something to whinge at like that just goes with the territory that's madness you can't keep everybody happy I mean I do look down at my Instagram and I do look at Twitter and I do have a scroll through just to gauge but you know I will

ring Dan first and foremost like as soon as I finish this show my husband Dan yeah I mean not every day I don't ring him every day for this morning now but you know when it's when there's a big show you know what did you think and I'll take his gauge on most things it would be too much for anybody wouldn't it I think to take that on board yes I mean you sound so delightfully sorted about it. I do think you navigate what could be very tricky territory so well. And I think the evidence of that is that you are so loved by a wide span of people. What's the one thing that most people say to you in the street when they recognize you? they recognize you everyone's really nice to me doesn't it drive you mad I'm like well no because everybody's really nice a lot of the time they talk about the kind of things that go wrong on this morning and I think there are a lot of videos on YouTube of us just killing ourselves laughing and somebody's packaged them up into these things that people just watch on repeat and giggle with

and I love that like I love that people have had a lot like particularly in the last 18 months and there is a lot of stuff that goes wrong and I get a lot of stuff wrong it's nice that you can make people laugh and you can bring a bit of joy in someone's day so I I love that I've googled those videos when I feel a bit low yeah I'm like I'm just gonna watch this it's just so infectious you and Phil giggling together is just the best thing ever. I know, but there is a science to it. Even if you don't know what somebody's laughing about, if you see two people laughing, you'll start to laugh. And your brain doesn't know the difference

between real laughter and fake laughter. So even if you start fake laughing, you'll get that same rush of kind of lovely, hormonal, endorphin, good chemical thing going through your body. we all need to laugh a little bit more I think I know never stop getting drunk at the NTAs and then rolling into this morning next morning yeah well that I mean not to that level I think you only get away with doing that once oh it was good your third failure is your failure to be an individual this is fascinating was this pertinent

to a particular period of your life I think it started at school and I think it started because I think the worst thing for any teenager or younger as in my case is to stand out from the crowd in any way shape or form and I just wanted to wear what they wore like the same music as they all liked and that felt safe. And I was happy in that space. And then I think then what happens is, is you get older because you haven't tested your own individuality. You get addicted to that safe space feeling. So you kind of function in this sort of mediocre gray area and you never really push the boundaries, I guess.

It feels safe and feeling safe feels nice but I think that whenever anything's felt really really right or really good or really tested me it's when I've branched out and gone for it or pushed myself so I think failing to step out of comfort zone I guess has been a problem at times and did that wish to be part of a group or a tribe did that continue into your 20s in the first years of your career yeah I think so but also I think it was like people quite like it watching you if you are in that safe mediocre space of what they expect and what they can cope with and deal with do you know what I mean that's pretty interesting like I think people like that as well I think they go oh yes we know what we're getting if you come down too hard and heavy on an opinion or a thing you can almost off balance people totally so if you

are kind of living in this safe ground, then other people feel quite safe with you also. Because I do. I mean, that doesn't mean people are wrong for doing that. I get that. I feel like that too. I chose to live my life like that. And I still do to a certain extent. Who wouldn't want to live in the safer, nicer part of life? I think that's all okay and good. But I do think sometimes you just have to step out of that realm just to see what it feels like a bit to sort of frighten yourself a bit and scare yourself a bit I read that you were actually very shy as a child which might seem counterintuitive given your job now yeah but do you think that shyness it's almost like you need safety in numbers if

you're shy as a child yes I was shy to speak up in front of anybody or anything like I used to have my sleeve pulled down over my wrist and I'd have kind of the outline of my jumper like over my mouth over my nose like a mask and I'd talk through my hand at people and not really look them in the eye but then when I was with my group of friends I was loud and more like I am now I would say you know what I think it is about I think it's a fear of judging or getting it wrong so the moment I felt that somebody might judge me or somebody might think I was being stupid or embarrassing or this then I would absolutely die and cripple inside so I'd rather not go there and the bit like the front door was shut and I'd be at home and mum would be like, oh my God, she never shuts up. She's like, look at me,

I'm going to do this performance over here, but get me to do that anywhere else. And it just wasn't for me. So I had to kind of marry those two things together to get where I am now. Care less about the judgment side of things and let that side of me that felt the urge to be louder and chatty and performing and all that sort of stuff rise to the surface a little bit more. And am I right in thinking that modelling helped bring that out for you? Yeah, because I forced myself. You'd walk into a casting and there'd be a room full of girls and I'd walk in and I just got the train from Brighton and I didn't really know anyone and all these other girls sort of seemed to know each other. They'd been on castings all day and they were like

great mates and I sort of walked in already I felt completely out of place and it would be like a toothpaste commercial so you'd go in and they'd give you a script and there'd be like a desk there a bit like what you imagine on x-factor that kind of desk and three judges they weren't judges but whoever they were they were sat there and you just have to deliver these lines and like the first few times I did it, I walked in and all I wanted to do was put my sleeve over my face and hide and not look anyone in the eye. And in the end, I just thought, do you know what? You've got to do this. You've just got to do this. And I just had to dig really deep. And it's almost like you have to pretend. And I just had to keep faking it and pretending and faking it and pretending until actually it felt all right.

And the more you do it, the better it feels. And it was a bit like within my work, feeling brave enough to step away from Watercube for the first time and ad lib around it was terrifying but liberating because you could inject so much of your real self into the words and into whatever show you were hosting. But it's bloody scary doing that because that's when it could all go horribly wrong. But when it all goes horribly wrong, suddenly you go, oh my God, there's no coincidence. The bits that go horribly wrong are the bits that people keep watching on YouTube over and over and over. And when you realize that actually it doesn't matter when it goes wrong, it takes the power away from feeling like that is a bad and horrible and terrible thing. And it becomes less frightening. I think that's such a powerful

lesson about failure. It's that thing of when you fail or you make a mistake, actually, it becomes a very human moment and a point of connection for multiple people. And then not only do you have that, but you also have the benefit of learning for the next time. And once you realize that, then you don't need to be fearful of it happening again so you can take more risks so it becomes a kind of virtuous circle yeah when do you think you really found your individuality and felt able to express it to be honest in the last couple of years I would say like it's taken me a really really long time and I think most of that comes from I don't want to sound like not caring because I do care I do

I care an awful lot but if it comes at the detriment to me not being myself then I have to go with it and I have to let it out and I'm also really enjoying the process of just seeing how I really feel about stuff because I think it's almost like a numbing that happens whether it be about what color t-shirt you think goes with those trousers or when you walk through the door and you go right what do I want to listen to what choice of music am I going to play right now and I think like the more you practice those things it's almost like a muscle that you have to use. And the easier it comes and you're like, oh, this is who I am and what I like. That's good. That's not just what

somebody has suggested I listen to on my radio. Or that's not what somebody has, I've just seen in a magazine that I should be wearing. That's not what Holly had on this morning today. Do you know what I mean? It's like, those things are all lovely and inspiration should be taken from absolutely everywhere and feed your soul with all of that but ultimately it has to be your decision and it has to be you because only you can do you and I think so many people listening to this will relate to that because so many of us I think spend our teen years and our 20, trying to outsource our sense of self to other people's opinions of us. It's a kind of element of people pleasing. And I remember just being in a series of romantic relationships in my twenties and my partner would say, oh, you know, where do you

want to go for lunch or what do you want to eat? And I would be like, I don't know, what do you want? Because I would want them to be happy. And it's so dangerous because then you just end up as you say not knowing what music you Holly or Elizabeth actually want to listen to yeah but you met your husband quite young didn't you yeah I did I did so we met at work so I was doing Saturday mornings and he came in as a producer on the show when we very very first very first met each other, he'd just come from working at MTV. I think he walked onto the studio floor and I was working with Stephen Mulhern at the time and him and I had a brilliant working relationship as well. And I was doing some weird pirouetting ballet, stupid nonsense around the floor. And I looked up and there was this guy sort of stood

there looking a bit too cool for school. And he sort of looked at me as if I was just the biggest idiot he'd ever met. They were like, oh, this is Stan Baldwin, your new producer. And I was like, oh, I'm going to hate this guy. He's just come from MTV. This is going to be rubbish. We're never going to be friends. We became such close friends. There was sort of a group of us.

And it was like this intensity of friendship. And I think probably looking back between me and Dan, it was such an intense friendship that I can only describe it that we must have been falling in love and not realizing it before we'd even kissed each other because it was super super intense and then suddenly like a lightning bolt I just looked at him one day and I knew the emotions I was feeling weren't friendship anymore and that's when we got together I know so what age were you when you met Dan 24 I think I think I was married at 26 and I had Harry at 27 or I was married at 27 20 I don't know I don't know you know it's been a long

time when you actually can't remember but I'm very lucky that I met him when I did it was a really good moment for me because life wasn't too crazy and. I really need him by my side because he is the greatest support and advisor and confident. And he makes me laugh more than anybody I've ever met in my life. And we work very well together. And that's someone who's seen you through what sounds like were some of the most transitional years of your life. This whole journey of self-discovery he's been there for that yeah he has done I think sometimes people think oh god for me with wild moon like when I pushed the button on

that and I was like right let's get this out here I know that for a lot of people it seemed like a big departure and a big move however I've always had this side to me and you know even at school you know my best friend from school has gone on to be a Reiki master and we started doing our Reiki stuff at school together and I've always loved astrology and tarot and all those sorts of things but I think again for fear of in a way being judged or misunderstood I think I sort of kept a lot of that to myself actually selfishly I've kept a lot of it to myself because I separate work and my life I have to have that separation sometimes I think that's a bit of a coping tool for me to keep a bit back for myself.

So for Dan, it's not that much of a departure because he's always known. But also, I feel like I've become more of myself than ever. So actually, when you've got somebody who loves you for being you, if all you're doing is enhancing you, then there's more of you to love, I guess, more of what they fell in love with at the first time. It's just a bit clearer. I suppose this sounds like quite a negative question, but I don't mean it to be, which is about, we've talked about the fact that you are now 40 and you're entering this, what seems to us a new phase, but TV is an industry that has in the past been criticised for being ageist and sexist. Yeah. What's your experience of that been?

I mean, this morning, which is kind of my bread and butter, I guess, and where I am in day in, day out, I don't think you could find a more feminist show than this morning. I really don't. The majority of the team are women. Martin Frizzell, our editor at the helm of it, has been one of my greatest supporters and somebody that I call. The feeling there in my immediate working environment of what I have the most experience of, I feel very lucky and very blessed. I think that in other people's area of work, not just within TV, but in lots of other places, they are not having the same experience of me.

And I think that there is clearly a lot more that needs to be done and changed. I think when it comes to the sort of age thing, I feel like that's changing already. And again, I think I'd like to think that it's changing. I hope that it's changing. I think we see a lot more across the board, a broad spectrum of life now on screen and quite rightly so. I think it's still got a long way to go in certain areas,

but I think it's trying. It could try harder and better and quicker, but I'm not going to worry about that because I'm trying to live right now. You're trying to live in the present. I'm trying to live right now. And I actually think that if you live in the present, then you are always relevant because it's happening now. you live in the present, then you are always relevant because it's happening now. Oh, that's so good. What a wonderful note to end on. But before I do bring this to a close, I want to confess that as much as I was so excited about this and so looking forward to our chat, I was also intimidated because you are a brilliant, empathetic and really natural interviewer it sounds like I really have to bring my A plus game but you honestly you've made it such a joy for me and I just

wanted to know how it was for you being interviewed and how you found it thinking about your failures and how this experience has been really well to be honest I'm not brilliant at answering questions I much prefer sitting in in your shoes really and asking the questions I'm quite happy to deflect any attention on what's actually going on however when you write a book like this it's the beginning of opening up and I think I'm getting more comfortable with it because I'm less scared of the reaction I think it feels good because if I'd have done this a few years ago there is no way I would have been ready and whilst we're sharing how we really, really feel, I too was intimidated about this because you are one of those incredibly smart and bright women who's also really nice. And you are incredibly articulate. And I always look at people like you and I'm like, I need to be a little bit more like Elizabeth. Oh my God, nonsense. like you and I'm like I need to be a little bit more like Elizabeth oh my god nonsense it's true

it is it is true it is true so there is very much a mutual appreciation here you're so lovely I promise I wasn't asking that to get a mutual compliment but my love language is affirmation so you're so lovely but right back at you all of those things can be said about you thank you for inspiring my wedding dress thank you for being a holly willoughby the nation's best friend and and thank you so much for coming on how to oh my absolute pleasure anytime thank you this very special bonus episode of how to Fail is sponsored by Pagesmith. Give the gift of poetry. I love this sponsor so much because Pagesmith is a new service that allows a reader to create their own personalised poetry collection by choosing from a curated selection of eight themes and then adding a fully personalized title,

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