How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S12, Ep2 How to Fail: Jacqueline Wilson

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

Dame Jacqueline Wilson is the beloved children’s author of over 100 books and the creator of one of the most memorable characters of all time: Tracy Beaker. But it wasn’t until her 40s that Jacqueline became a bestseller. Now, at 75, she remains as indefatigable as ever. Her latest book, The Primrose Railway Children, a reimagining of E. Nesbit’s children’s classic, is published next week.She joins me to talk about her failure to be practical, her failure as an actress and her failure to be healthy. In person, she's just as charmingly unforgettable as her fictional heroines. Enjoy!--The Primrose Railway Children by Jacqueline Wilson is out on 16th September. You can preorder it here.--My new novel, Magpie, is out now. You can order it here.---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. We love hearing from you. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Jacqueline Wilson @FansofJWilsonElizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod       Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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their mental health. Again, that's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com forward slash how to fail. Thank you very much to BetterHelp. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest today is Dame Jacqueline Wilson, beloved children's author of over 100

books. I tried to work out exactly how many, but I couldn't. I think it's around 113. Her novels, which have sold some 40 million copies worldwide, are notable for featuring themes such as adoption, divorce, and mental health. Her most famous creation, Tracy Beaker, appeared in 1991 as a 10-year-old girl living in a children's home dubbed The Dumping Ground. It was a breakthrough success and was later adapted into a highly acclaimed TV show. Dame Jacqueline's fans are so dedicated that one of her signing cues once lasted seven hours. She was born Jacqueline Aitken a few months after the end of the Second World War and grew up on a council estate before leaving school at 16 and finding work on the girls' magazine Jackie.

Unconfirmed rumours suggest the title was inspired by her. She took her first A-level at 40, earning an A-grade in English. Although she had wanted to be a writer from the age of six, it wasn't until her 40s that Dane Jacqueline became a bestseller. In 2002, she became the most borrowed author in British libraries and reigned for six years. Now at 75, she remains as indefatigable as ever. Her latest book, The Primrose Railway Children, a reimagining of E. Nesbitt's children's classic, is published tomorrow. Her popularity is, at least in part, explained by her refusal to shy away from life as it actually is, and her ability to remember what it was to be a child.

I always say, she told an interviewer last year, that nearly every interesting creative or successful adult I've ever met has said that they always felt an odd one out as a child. Dame Jacqueline Wilson, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much, Elizabeth. What a lovely introduction. I think you know more about me than I do. But do you know how many books you've written? Is The Primrose Railway Children, is that your 113th novel? I think it is. And anyway, even if it isn't, I've written now the one that goes after it. So we can say 113. It sounds good.

Now, I ended on that quote because I really agree with you that I think particularly a lot of writers seek to belong in a world that wasn't always friendly to them as children. Did you feel like the odd one out when you were a child? I did frequently, but I did learn to try and fit in but even so I always had a little gang of other children who also felt they were odd ones out in some way which was quite comforting but as well as the real children that were my friends I particularly liked reading about Odd Ones Out and I felt that say the the fossil sisters in ballet shoes were my friends or all four of the little women I mean I had fictional friends as well as real life ones. I love ballet

shoes and it's one of my favourite things that I know about you is what a fan of Noel Stretfield you are. I love her books. I've read nearly all of them. I've also read her series of more or less autobiographies, although apparently she did change a few facts, much the annoyance of her families when it was published. But I particularly find it very painful reading the last few chapters of the last one, because it's all about how everything goes downhill rapidly. I'm probably the same age or even older than she was when she wrote that. So I'm trying very hard to sort of think of all sorts of people that can stay really creative and happy and leading fulfilled lives well into their 70s, even 80s. That's fine with me. Well, that's a wonderful

thing to hear. And I have to say the second half of your life, I mean, that's been where most of your success has come from. What do you think that's like, experiencing success slightly later in life? Are you grateful for that? Yes, I think it's lovely to do that because it's what you hope for, but seems quite unlikely. And I do remember at the age of 50 when I was successful, but I thought, oh gosh, everything is just going to be the same now and it'll be a slightly downward slope. And really my entire world changed. I mean, my marriage broke up. I eventually found the most wonderful new partner. My books sold lots. There were lots of wonderful television adaptations and accolades. And I've moved to the country where even though I was the most townie person ever,

I am now sort of striding around in my walking boots and know the names of wildflowers and enjoy sort of herding up cows if they've come out of the wrong meadow not my cows I hasten to add so basically my entire life has changed for the better and and you know that's the right way around I think I think that's so wonderful to hear because a lot of people who listen to this podcast get in touch with me and feel like they're failures in their 20s. And I always say that actually we as women have been sold a pernicious myth that our worth diminishes the older that we get. And that's been the opposite of my experience. I feel more myself and like you just sort of more successful on my own terms the older I get. And also, I was very shy as a child, as a teenager, even in my early 20s. And I think the

best thing about getting older, you start to think, well, you know, does it really matter what people think of me? No, it doesn't. And why not take a chance on this or go and do this if you just fancy doing it? And I think you liberate yourself. It's very satisfying when this happens. Now, it's one of the famous things about you that apparently you buy a ring every time you finish a novel. Do you still do that? Because you must have the most enormous collection now. I do have a lovely collection of rings. I have calmed down. I haven't bought any jewellery for quite a while. But as I look at myself now, I do see there are one, two, three, four rings on. I haven't got too many bracelets because I know how annoying it is on a podcast if you hear

jangle, jangle, jangle all the time. But I love rings. And even when I'm at home and I'm not seeing anybody, I always put my jewellery on. I don't really feel me without it. As a children's author, do you find it easy to remember what it was like to be a child? I have such vivid memories of being a child. I mean, it asked me what I was doing five years ago, and I draw a complete blank, but I can still remember conversations, feelings, even nightmares that I had as a child. And that is so useful because although childhood itself has changed and attitudes to children have changed, emotions haven't changed. And so it's easy for me to remember what it's like when your best friend goes off you and goes over with somebody else, or you're lying awake at night and you hear your parents shrieking at each other. I know what it's like to go through all these things.

So it's easy enough to put myself in a child's shoes when I'm writing and hopefully get across to children who are reading the books that you're not alone. Other people have gone through this and it's okay and things will turn out all right in the end somehow or other. Do you think you were an unhappy child? In some ways, yes. I wouldn't necessarily say unhappy. I was an anxious child because my parents really didn't get on at all and yet this was in the days when, particularly if you didn't have

much money, divorce was not only something that was talked about in whispers, but if presumably my mother would have had custody of me, but I don't really know, but I very much doubt she would have been able to find a job to support both of us, plus somewhere for us to live. So it just wasn't a possibility. So there was forever that tense feeling at home. But I had lots of happy times too. I liked being at primary school, wasn't so keen on secondary school. And I loved my own imaginary world. My mum went out to work and in the holidays I was very happy to be left by myself and I'd read, I'd play imaginary games. I was very much a doll sort of girl and had a whole load of dolls that I played elaborate games with. And my mum, her first job was working in a cake shop. And she'd come home at

lunchtime, generally with a currant bun and a cream cake. Absolutely the wrong diet for an anxious child. But I was so thrilled. This was my lunch and that was fine. And never mind if I had a bilious attack later on. So there were lots of fun things that happened. But overall, I'm just very glad that I'm not a child anymore, because there's nothing you can do about your situation when you are a child. Whereas if you're an adult, and you think this is not working, this is really bad. You can, you can walk out, you can do whatever you feel needs to be done. So, so many people look back on their childhood and you think, really, was it really that wonderful for you? Maybe it was, I don't know. I did try very, very hard to give my daughter a relaxed and happy

childhood. But I don't know whether she really was enjoying life as much as she said she did because she's a lovely woman and would always try very hard to please me and reassure me. So also I'm fascinated by the fact that siblings can often have very different ideas about what childhoods are like. I always remember Beryl Bainbridge, whose books I adored, saying that, you know, her life when she was a girl was very much as she depicted in her novels. And her brother, proper solicitor brother, argued tremendously that it wasn't a bit like that. And Beryl was always prone to exaggeration. So who knows? I mean, it's all the matter of how you're perceiving things, isn't it?

Fascinating. I feel exactly as you did. I found the powerlessness of childhood extremely frustrating and I am so grateful that I'm an adult now for all the reasons that you so eloquently outlined. Tell us about your most famous child in a way Tracy Beaker I love the story of how you came up with her name

will you tell us that story this this is one I tell to children if I'm doing an event where maybe boys have been brought along because their sister wants to come and listen to me and they're sitting there glum thinking, gosh, it's going to be so boring. Or in the past when I did lots of schools, if I was in a class where reading wasn't actually top of the list, I would talk about Tracy Beaker because she's a naughty child, an outrageous child,

probably mostly because she's had a very tough childhood. And I tell them a true story about how I got Tracy's name, though I do tend to camp it up a little bit for the children. But I say that I was trying to think of a name for this fierce, feisty little girl, and I thought Tracy just had a bounce to it and I couldn't think of a good surname for her a last name and I was actually thinking about this when I was having a bath because although nowadays I'm in and out the shower generally quite quickly baths are wonderful

places just for lying back and daydreaming. And so I was thinking about my book, I hadn't actually started it yet. And often I like to have a name that helps me as I think, because it makes my imaginary person become more real. And so I was just idly looking around thinking now what would be this good last name for Tracy because I wanted it to be the sort of name that sticks in the head and yet not too silly or outrageous a name and as you can imagine bathrooms are just not the right sort of places for sensible or even interesting surnames you know Tracy Pat, Tracy Toothbrush, all sorts of different bathroom furniture just doesn't lend itself to finding the right name. And I always make the children laugh by saying

Tracy Toilet, because goodness knows why it is, but anything to do with lavatories and children just crack up laughing and it makes it easier if this happens when you're talking. Then I say, truthfully indeed, that I got on with washing my hair thinking I was never ever going to find the right sort of name for Tracy. And in those days, I didn't have any special shower attachment. I just kept an old Snoopy beaker on the side of the bath, picked it up to wet my hair and just looked at the beaker and thought, Tracy, beaker? And it just seemed to have the right feel to it. And so this is the way I prove to children you can get good ideas anywhere. It certainly doesn't have to be at a desk or whatever. You can be doing something as prosaic as having a bath and the name comes to you.

And all these many years later, still, if I'm walking along the street and some child recognizes me, they might very well, instead of saying, hello, Jacqueline Wilson, they will say, Tracy Beaker. It's a magic name for me now. And I do think it was just wonderful to have that leg up in that the story of Tracy Beaker was the first of my books that actually really took off. I mean, it was the first one to be illustrated by Nick Sharratt. It was the first one with my new publishers. So it had lots going for it. And then, of course, I am realistic, it was the television show that came out about five years later that really, really put Tracy's name on the map and mine too. And it's still fantastic that all these many years later, now my mum, Tracy Beaker, has been on the television and there are plans for more too. And the same actress, Danny Harmer, who played Tracy when she was about 11,

is now playing her as a mum. Because I wanted to prove that the one thing about people who've been through the care system, it doesn't mean necessarily that their own children are going to be ending up in care. Sometimes they can be the most wonderful mothers. I've met quite a few people now who have been in and out of care and yet they are just excellent so I feel that though the grown-up Tracy is still dealing with anger issues shall we say she never loses her temper with her child and just adores her and gives her nothing but encouragement and praise and I feel quite proud of her for that. Oh you should she's a wonderful creation and has really shaped

the thinking of an entire generation multiple generations of readers do you still have the Snoopy beaker is the question? No I got got tossed out quite early on. I didn't really think you could be a really iconic piece of property. No, that's disappeared. I have somewhere got my notes for the first story of Tracy Beaker and actually the manuscript, which in those days it was a typewriter and I took carbon copies. And I think possibly my editor then ended up with conjunctivitis trying to read my bad typing. But oh, for the days of typewriters, I would still love, love, love to go back to using a typewriter and knowing that all my words aren't suddenly going to disappear and weird messages aren't going to on the paper. And because I am such a technophobe that I wouldn't care about bashing things out and typing it all out again as a clean copy.

I would just feel relaxed. Well, that brilliantly brings us on to your first failure, which is your failure to do anything practical. Tell us about that. Well, I am so embarrassed about it because it's dreadful to be so incompetent, because it's dreadful to be so incompetent, in that certainly in the age of technology, I have battled hard. I still don't have a smartphone, which I am very happy with my little flip-top phone, but people do glance at me in astonishment if I have to use it in public because I hate predictive text. I break all my nails on my right hand, tapping out my pathetic little messages. But I don't want to be

pursued by people sending me urgent emails if I'm out and about. I know where I am with my old-fashioned phone. Though nowadays I can see, particularly if we have to live with the concept of COVID for years to come, it is going to be vitally important to be able to have information on your phone so that you can actually, when you enter a restaurant or something, you can actually use the app. I don't want to be the poor old lady left outside because she hasn't got the right equipment. So I will have to get used to it. But I've only had three computers in my life. And it's just so scary, although I have the same sort each time.

The people in their so-called wisdom has made it so many more things to confuse me that I find it a real battle. When I write, I want to be in my own imaginary world, not sort of thinking, oh God, what's happened now? And how do I do this? And what's going to happen here. So modern technology and I just don't get on. I did once, this was long ago, on a tour of Scandinavia, which was a struggle because I speak not a word of any of the relevant languages. And therefore, I had to talk to children whose English was really good, which meant they were 14 plus. to children whose English was really good, which meant they were 14 plus. And of course, you know,

my books certainly then were mostly for under 11. So that was a big problem. But anyway, I was put up in a very glamorous hotel one night, but it was entirely controlled, my room, by some little iPad, you know, to even open and close the curtains and there were little messages to me as I was putting out the lights that you must actually lock your door using this device so I did and then in the morning not only could I not open the curtains but I couldn't work out how actually to unlock the door and I had to phone down the housekeeping so I'm so sorry I managed to lock myself in can you help feeling a total fool and now it's such a relief if ever I stay in a hotel just to see no you can do everything manually but even then I find it very hard to work hotel keys or those little bits of plastic. I don't know what it is.

I irritate myself immensely because it's so annoying to be so stupid. Is it specifically modern technology? It isn't modern technology because even as a young woman, I found mastering the simplest vacuum cleaner or washing machine. And you could say this was a little bit artful, because it sometimes got me out of doing the things I should be doing. But it was totally innocent. I just have to be taught things, whereas other people can manage perfectly easily or just have to glance at instructions. I mean I now I really have from a working class childhood joined the middle classes because the house I am in now actually came with an agar and it's very splendid agar and keeps the

kitchen warm and you can on a rainy day like this you can dry off your clothes but if you ask me which little oven bit is the one where you actually cook and which is the one that warms the plates I still get them mixed up I mean luckily I am spoilt with my partner doing nearly all the cooking but I mean why can't I do? She didn't know how to use an agar when we first moved in. But with just, you know, about five minutes experimenting, right, she was up to speed. I just sort of lagged behind terribly. And banks too. I mean, I don't do internet banking or telephone banking. But even using the holes in the wall, I have to concentrate fiercely or find that I have mucked that up. Getting railway tickets, that again is a problem. I mean,

I manage more or less. But what I find is the most wonderful thing now, being a bit wrinkly with grey hair, people just think, well, it's because she's old, and they don't realise that I've had this incompetence all my life. And therefore, they make allowances, and they even say, can I help you? And I bask in this. And the nearest little town to where I live in the country now has a very elderly population. And frequently, I seem to be the youngest person in the bank. And I actually know more than some of the other people that go in the bank and obsess about how do you use this card or what do I do. And we were all going to be completely in the soup if that pack closes down.

But certainly, they have wonderful staff who treat you very politely, but without being patronising, which is very important, because it makes you feel even more of a fool. I mean, in the bank where I used to live, which had young staff, I would politely request a little help doing this or that. And you could actually see their eyes flickering and their eyebrows raising as if to say, oh, God, we're stuck with this old bag now. It would just be wonderful if I could do something really, really sort of practical and shine. But I can't. I can't even find my way around places. I mean, luckily, I got given a lift to where I am now talking to you. I was about to say, it's a miracle that you're here and arrived on time. But I then have to find my way up to the station, which I think I know where it is.

And I mean, I have been here several times in my own hometown. I have been known to go from the supermarket to think, now I have to go to the post office. I mean, I have been taken there. I know where it is. It's five minutes away. And yet I have actually got lost. So heaven help me as I get even older and my brain starts to, you know, have all those horrible moth-eaten holes in it. I mean, I should just have to look helplessly at people. Do you think, I mean, just have to look helplessly at people do you think I mean I'm sure people listening to this will think okay well she has an incredible imaginative world and clearly maybe that's where she spends her time and in order to create these wonderful stories that's how her mind has

to work but are you saying like when you're trying to get money out of an ATM or you're walking from the supermarket to the post office you're actually trying to do that it's not that you're lost in an imaginative dream yes you see that is often what people think and I do tend actually to let them think that but no I can be concentrating fully on the job and yet no it still doesn't work the most classic thing I ever did and I blushed to tell this story the lovely guy who's been the project manager for the many things that needed doing to the house one of the things he did is changing the locks and he got a special security key. And he handed me mine and I looked at it and it had this sort of yellow thing on it. And I looked at it and I looked at the lock

and thought, how do you get it to fit in? And very gently he said, Jackie, you take the plastic coating of it I can't believe I was so stupid I just thank God that I've managed all these years to earn a very pleasant living from my writing because if I didn't have that I mean mean, I would just be in lost cause. I really would. But there we go. I'm very interested in something you said earlier on about hating predictive text. Why do you hate it? Is it because as a writer, you find something very discombobulating about a machine anticipating what word you might want. It seriously is.

And inevitably, I don't use text language and find it quite repellent. The predictive text never seems to be able to predict exactly what I want to say. And then to get it to say what I want to say, there's more of a performance. So I'd much sooner just tap it all out slowly. My computer now, which is, I don't know, about six months old, and I'm just beginning to relax when I sit in front of it. But that seems somehow or other to have some real feeling that it knows better than me what I want to say and will sometimes, thinking it's helpful, will fill in a word when I've only done about three letters and because I'm a touch typist I don't generally look at the screen but I actually have to watch myself because sometimes it types complete nonsense simply because it doesn't understand what I want to say.

And we have very different ideas about what is correct grammar too. And it's forever, you know, suggesting to me that I should express myself in a different way. And it just annoys me. I want it to know its place. I don't want it to have any kind of artificial intelligence whatsoever even if it's superior to my own I just want to use it and then put it in a corner and forget about it oh this is hilarious thank you so much for talking to us about this because I'm sure it will resonate with lots of people that kind of inability to be in sync with a rapidly evolving world. And it

must be quite scary sometimes. Well, it is because it's changed so quickly and so rapidly, and particularly the last 18 months. I mean, I have so lucky in many ways because I live in a reasonably isolated spot where the joys of fiber broadband haven't actually reached out its tentacles it's impossible for me to do any zooming at home and I must admit I breathe a great sigh of relief because of that so that either I come to this little studio here with the wondrous Nermy, who is fantastic at coming out and helping me cope, or if I need to, you know, send a child a little film or something to say hi or happy birthday or get better soon or something like that. Basically, we have to go down to the village and our dear friends let us sort of use their equipment or we sit outside their house and use their Wi-Fi to send things and they don't mind. In fact, I think it's quite funny. But really, I have an excuse ready and available.

ready and available. I mean, I do find this is a problem, sadly, that mostly affects older people, because we didn't grow up, this being our world. And my daughter, who's the most wonderful daughter in many ways, but she forgot to have a child who could come along and say, Oh, Grandma, you are daft, I'll fix it for you. So, yes, I would find a spare child in the village, actually. Yes, I'm sure there'd be many volunteers. Your second failure is your failure as an actress. So explain to us why you chose this. Well, as a child, I knew I always wanted to be a writer, but I did rather fancy myself as an actress too.

I was good at reading aloud and I was often chosen in class to do the sort of reading of whichever book we had on the go. And occasionally even to stand up on the stage in the hall and read out a piece to everyone and I rather enjoyed that because it was a way that I could, well shine is too strong a word, I was the girl that could read loud well and that was nice and I thought acting was more or less the same. At primary school, I do remember we had a school play most years, but my biggest part was the queen in The Sleeping Beauty, which as you can imagine, you have about three lines to say, and then you're fast asleep for most of the play. And we were doing it for the parents. that seemed lovely and I wasn't a bit nervous and enjoyed it and then there was a most uncomfortable sort of silence and I thought

to myself sitting there on my strange throne oh my goodness somebody's forgotten their words and then I suddenly realized that somebody was me so that didn't go down terribly well but when I went to secondary school I did join the drama club but I only ever had parts like chorus or crowd or villager and yeah I could dress up and have makeup put on my face and feel part of things. But basically, secretly, I very much wanted to have a main part. But wisely, the teachers didn't actually select me. And then when my book started to take off, and there were television adaptations, occasionally, lovely people thought it would be a really good idea if I did the tiny little cameo thing and the first time this happened there was a television version of a book about

identical twins double act and they're auditioning for a part and the producer thought it might be good fun if they actually gave me the part of the person casting the girls for this particular part. And I thought, oh, how lovely. Bearing in mind, I had written this adaptation. I couldn't learn my own lines, which was terribly unnerving. And I didn't have very many to do. my own lines, which was terribly unnerving, and I didn't have very many to do. And then when I eventually mastered them, which took an awful long time, listening to myself, I thought, this is just dreadful. I sound so affected, so stupid, so wooden. And I told myself, well, maybe this is just my perception. But app appallingly when I actually saw the Finnish

version I was completely accurate I was complete rubbish and it was just so embarrassing that when it actually went out properly on television I couldn't watch it and yet I didn't learn from this. I was in a couple of other television things. And then when Sky made a film of one of my books, Four Kids and It, right at the end, when a little girl has actually had her dream come true, and she's written a book herself, and there's a long, long signing queue. They thought it would be fun if I was standing at the very end with a copy of her supposed book. And then I would go up to her and say, could you sign this, please? And then just make some pleasantry. It was in one of those sort of bits that happen right at the end of the film when the cast is going up, and it's just in a corner. It's when most people are rushing out to go to the toilets or whatever,

or get the bus home. So mercifully, I don't think a lot of people actually saw it. But again, when I saw it, I just cringed, absolutely cringed. And then the last time, and this will be the last time for good, I was in a sequel to a film called A Cat Named Bob, which was a book I liked about James Bowen, who had this extraordinary, wonderful ginger cat, that when he was on the streets, he had the cat with him. And it was a wonderful way of getting people to contribute some money. And my publishers actually published the book, and they had a big due for all their authors. And I was thrilled when I saw James Bowen with the cat round his shoulders in this probably about

hundreds of people there very noisy very hot and this cat was so relaxed well I mean I have a cat too and Jacob my cat would just take one look and just yowled and make the hills. And I couldn't understand how he got Bob so chilled. So I went up to him and shyly said that, you know, I admired the book about him. And could I possibly stroke Bob? Being a real fangirl. And he was lovely. Bob was lovely. And then you get separated at these big jostling things and I

decided I'm not very thrilled about being at huge great parties and after about an hour or so I thought right I'll go home now so I went downstairs the cloakroom and there was James with Bob and he was making a break for it too and we had a proper conversation then and his girlfriend had come to pick him up in their van and she wonderfully had liked my books and so we had a photo together and I thought this is great but I had no idea that when another book about James and Bob came out he'd actually put this bit about me in the book. And then they decided to make the film. And I got a letter from somebody to do with the film saying,

would you like to play yourself? And again, this mad stupidity, vanity, whatever. I thought, oh, yes, and that would be easy. And it was lovely to go on the film set lovely to meet James lovely to meet the now elderly Bob who really only sort of showed a whisker or two in the film it was mostly all his understudies doing the ginger cat bit but it was lovely to have another stroke of him. And then I had to do this little bit with the actor playing Bob, who was marvellous. I had no idea that when it's a film like that, that you have cameras practically over your shoulder, almost up your nose. And when you're

trying to remember your lines, when you're trying to act naturally, and when you're trying to remember your lines when you're trying to act naturally and when you're trying to stroke a cat so that it will stay there and not run away so we'd have to do it again and again and again seeing the finished film again you know through my sort of open fingers over my eyes it was a disaster I mean why they didn't cut me out altogether I have no idea but it's so interesting that even when you're playing yourself even though you can talk so beautifully now and you're such a wonderful storyteller and you can have crowds of children in raptures just by speaking spontaneously you can't play yourself what is it that? Is there something about authenticity or truth that gets wrapped up there? I think there must be, although possibly I couldn't play anybody else either. But I just become incredibly self-conscious and just can't do it.

When I write, I don't really think about writing when I'm doing it. I just do it because lucky enough to have that ability. And I think, obviously, you can do all sorts of dramatic training. But I think you divide sharply into people who can act and people who can't. I mean, I can pretend in my real life. I can be quite artful. And I think if I could only learn how to play it, I'd be a good poker player. But actually being required to pretend to be me is very difficult. But I have wondered too, whether it took me a long time to become me, if you see what I mean, because my mum had very, very fierce ideas about the sort of child she wanted, which was certainly wasn't me. It was all singing, tap dancing, Shirley Temple sort of child. And I was, you know, shy kid sucking my

thumb in a corner reading a book. And so I tried hard to become the sort of daughter that she wanted I tried at school to be the sort of girl that people wanted as a friend but I wasn't really being me and it took me a long time to become the person that I feel I am now. And maybe I cling on to that. And if somebody else has written lines for me, or even if I've written them myself, somehow it doesn't work. But I think the only thing is to learn a lesson. And, you know, there are some things that no matter how much you'd like to, if you can't do it, you can't do it. And I think at my age, it's time to just call it a day. I'm excited you met Bob, though.

I speak as a ginger cat owner myself. But it's interesting that you say there that you could pretend in real life because part of your wonderful story is that you were married to a man. your wonderful story is that you were married to a man, the marriage broke up, and you've now been in a very happy long-term relationship with Trish, your lovely partner. Yes. Do you think you were pretending, I put that in quotation marks, in your marriage too? Was there a part of like playing up to an idea of what you should be at that stage? I think I was. I don't think it was the fact that my first marriage was to a man. It was that particular man who, I mean, he's very happy now in his second marriage, as far as I'm aware. I think we were just entirely wrong for each other. We got married far too young. I was only 19. He never willingly read a book in his life. And for

somebody like me, books are my everything. We were just totally mismatched. But I was determined to make a go of it because my own parents had such a rocky marriage. And eventually, when I was grown up, they did separate. So rather than just have endless rows, I did try hard for a while just to adapt. Because women were meant to do that. In the sort of problem pages of women's magazines throughout the 60s, even the 70s, I think, throughout the 60s, even the 70s, I think, was very much, you know, when your husband comes home, make sure you've done your hair and put your makeup on and put a fresh dress on and have your supper ready. I mean, it makes you shriek with laughter now, but that was the way that you were told to do it. And although I didn't really agree with that, and certainly didn't always make that sort of effort all the time. I did really feel it was down to me to fuss around and make the marriage work. It's difficult with

marriage and with hindsight and it wasn't a bad marriage at all, but it really wasn't working. I'm sure we would not still be together, but in actual fact, he went off with somebody else. So I could stay on the moral high ground. But it was a shock at the time. I then had about six years, more or less, living by myself. And I think that was a very good period for me, because it made me tremendously independent and determined. And my daughter had grown up then, for which I was incredibly grateful. So, you know, there wasn't any worries about custody or anything. And I hadn't got a lot of money behind me then, but I knew I could, if I was lucky and still stayed relatively popular, support myself.

But it gave me a chance to work tremendously hard and go out to many schools. And then in the evenings, work really hard writing letters back to children. And I don't think I've ever worked so hard in my life. And yet I got a buzz out of it, a thrill. I thought, right, I am going to be a success. I'm going to try so hard with this. And I managed to keep the friends that I'd had before, but also made some lovely new friends.

And I did different things. I mean, weekends, if you're newly single, can be a bit awful because most people are tied up with their partners or families or whatever. So I did various courses, like I did an architecture course and went round London looking at different buildings, which I found fascinating. I knew nothing about it. And that was lovely.

I did an art history course, which I also enjoyed tremendously. And then I thought, I need a fun thing to do. And because I'd always loved dancing, and I certainly wasn't going to step foot in a nightclub at that sort of age, I discovered line dancing. It was the most tremendous fun. And I'm still friends with some of the women that I met at those line dancing classes who were absolutely fantastic and warm, and we had a lot of fun. And I discovered that if you do line dancing, and you don't mind looking a bit naff, it's the greatest way of forgetting all your worries because unless you're going to get tremendously tangled up, you can't lose concentration.

And, you know, some line dances are really quite difficult to do, but it's to lovely music. And I still miss it. And if ever I happen to be in any setting where there's popular music being played, my toes start tapping and I would love, I've forgotten most of the elaborate dances. But no, I am just a huge fan of it. And I think we need more things where you can go along in a comfortable situation, single, and you're not actively looking

to get off with anybody but you're just going to have fun yes yes yes to all of that I love the image of you wandering around London looking at buildings and going line dancing what a beautiful thing to have done and what chutzpah it shows that you did it your third failure in many ways is the biggest one and it is your failure in your words to keep healthy and that was partly because as you emailed me that you have always powered through life glorying in working very hard and keeping fit which I cannot tell you how much I relate to that and how much I think other people relate to that, the kind of glorification of busyness and productivity. But tell us about your health journey. Well, I always did a lot. And I did do marathon signing sessions. And I got a real buzz out of it. I loved feeling that I had a lot of energy, that I worked hard, that I wrote a lot of books,

that I did all sorts of different things. And I love swimming. It's about the only sporty thing I can do. And I used to get up early and go swimming every morning at the local pool and love that too. And I just had this mad thing that I could carry on doing this. I was pushing myself and then in the evenings if I felt tired, I'd either have several black coffees or I'd have a couple of glasses of wine, whatever, so that I would carry on. A mad way of living. I mean, I act healthily and I just thought,

no, I'm going to be the exception that proves the rule and I knew that my blood pressure was going up because once or twice you know I'd had my blood pressure taken at the doctors for routine visits and they said oh dear oh you've really got to ease up and take these pills well I didn't want to take pills because somebody had told me that some of the pills you take for blood pressure make you feel a little bit like a zombie. Actually, now I do take blood pressure pills. That's complete rubbish. Well, it was for me, but I was very scared of losing my energy and my creativity. So I didn't take the pills. losing my energy and my creativity so I didn't take the pills and I thought well what's it matter if I have high blood pressure and carried on this sort of mad life and then I suddenly started to

feel a bit more tired and have a sort of feeling of heaviness about my chest and I remember looking at myself in the mirror and I've actually always been a little bit of a hypochondriac in that the slightest pain somewhere I think oh god what have I done now to it and always there's some terrible illness so I just told myself look pull yourself together this is a bit of anxiety and you know it's just your imagination But then I started at night to have a terrible cough that I had to sit up and I knew that wasn't right either. So I went to the doctor and because of my age, I think I wasn't particularly taken terribly seriously. One particular doctor said, yes, well, we'll have some blood tests and everything, but sure, you're all right. And it's just your age, you know,

menopause, whatever. The blood test appointment wasn't for a couple of weeks or something like that. And then every night, this awful coughing and this feeling of heaviness about my chest got worse I think it was the third doctor I saw at that practice and it was terribly embarrassing because you know I had to pester them but he was wonderful took me seriously said look I'm going to send you off a blood test now and we'll get the result come back tomorrow and then when I came back he said well you're a very interesting person to me because according to your blood tests and I've actually run them twice because I didn't believe it you should be dead my heart was failing rapidly and the heaviness in my chest was my lungs had swollen up with all the extra fluid. So I had further tests and ended

up going to the wonderful Brompton Hospital in London and, you know, being sort of fast-tracked there. And they implanted a defibrillator in my chest so that if my heart does fail, I have got my own private little sort of shock system inside me, which I'm crossing my fingers now. It hasn't gone off yet. And that's about for 12 years. But apparently it's like a donkey kicking you and you could pass out. So I don't really want this experience. out. So I don't really want this experience. It sort of keeps my heart going. And it's monitored at night with a little machine. And then I take wonderful ACE inhibitors, which helps my blood pressure. And so I tried to learn from this, I thought, well, I've been saved once. This is wonderful. Calm down a bit now.

And I had Trish as a partner then who nursed me through that bit and was wonderful, but then became quite worried about me. But still the arrogance of it. I thought, well, now I'm fixed. I'm better. And I had no idea that my kidneys were quietly failing. And so we went through the whole dramatic performance again. And I was on dialysis for a while, which is perfectly bearable.

And you can do all sorts of things one-handed when you're on dialysis. So, you know, it didn't stop me being able to write. And it didn't even stop me going to do things either before or afterwards but I can see in photos taken at the time I did look very pale like I don't know one of those what they called white walkers yeah wonderfully though Trish and I aren't compatible blood-wise and tissue-wise we went in one of those schemes where they try and find you another couple where one person in each couple is a wonderful generous person willing to donate their organ and then they try to match you with a person who actually has your own blood and tissue type. We had to have three goes at this before eventually it worked. And that was quite wonderful.

And so Trish donated her kidney to someone else. Trish donated her kidney. Whose partner donated their kidney to you. Yes. It means that theoretically, I can never get cross with her ever again. Well, exactly. I mean, she kidney to you. Yes, it means that theoretically, I can never get crossed with her ever again. Well, exactly. I mean, she really loves you. I know. And that's absolutely wonderful. I have got crossed occasionally. But it was a wonderful thing that she did. And if anybody listening to this podcast is contemplating things, listening to this podcast is contemplating things. She was out of hospital in three days. I was out of hospital in five days. If we were in the car, we had to have cushions over our stomachs just in case because you do feel sore. But it is astonishing what can be done now

and how grateful I am. So you would think I would avoid drink like the plague because I haven't got that many organs left that can say, I want my liver to keep pink and healthy. But I hope this is it and that I can carry on. But I have learned that if you're feeling tired give into it sit down put your feet up have read a book watch the telly don't crack on and on and on because it's it's a stupid thing to do have your health issues changed or made you more accepting of the way that you feel about death?

In a way, I think as you get older, you actually realise that it is going to happen. Obviously, it's scary and nobody wants a horrible, painful or really long-term horrible death. But you become a little bit more used to the idea I don't go around thinking about death all the time it sounds utterly ridiculous but Peter Pan actually says death will be an awfully big adventure to Wendy as they appear to be drowning in Peter Pan the stage show and there's a little bit of me that in my both the really big illnesses I was interested as to what it felt like I mean the frustration would be that if I get to the stage well when I get to the stage when I think yes this is it this is it, this is it, I'm dying, it would be very annoying not to be able to actually write about it.

So maybe in the process of dying, I'll be scribbling away trying to see what it's like. Or I don't really believe in an afterlife. But who knows? than afterlife but who knows I mean if ever anybody was determined it would be me to come back and find somebody I can channel my my writing thoughts to but being that highly unlikely somehow what an image Trish your partner is a bookseller how early on if at all does she get to read the books that you're writing? Well, she isn't a bookseller now. She's, as one dear friend said, she's your treasure.

She's the cook, she's the gardener, she's the driver. She's my everything. But do you know something? I don't let her read my manuscripts. I don't even now tell her what I'm going to be writing next until I've written a lot of it because with the best will in the world and she's the kindest woman ever but also a little bit opinionated and she will say I'm not sure about that and immediately I start to lose faith in whatever it is and then if she's reading something, I mean, she would be the best copy

editor in the world. She always can see spelling mistakes, inconsistencies, but she doesn't quite get it that if an author gives their partner or anybody dear to them their manuscript, I don't think they want criticism or suggestions. They want nothing but extreme praise. And I mean, if something happened that's lovely, she's always extremely proud of me. And so that's fine. But the actual imaginary work stays in my head or hidden away on my computer,

often until it's an actual book. And then I will give it to her. My final question for you, Jacqueline, is you are renowned for having created some of the most enduring, beloved children's characters of all time. But if you had to choose a character created by another author that you felt most like, who would it be? I think it would probably be Jane Eyre, because she was little and plain and certainly an odd one out as a child. But she was quite determined. I certainly don't want to go and find a Rochester who's never particularly appealed to me. But I think I'm that sort of person. I felt that Charlotte Bronte,

all those years ago, was writing Jane Eyre just for me. I feel, you know, she works for me, and that's good. Well, long may you continue to be that sort of person and long may you continue to create characters who seem to have been written just for the individual reader at the time. You are an absolute icon and I cannot thank you enough for coming on How To Fail. Oh, it's been such great fun, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for interviewing me. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you

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