How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S13, BONUS EPISODE! How To Fail: Ashley Walters

Episode Date: March 16, 2022

Yes, it's the one and only Top Boy himself: Ashley Walters. As Dushane, the East London drug kingpin in Netflix's hit show Top Boy, Walters is our favourite kind of antihero - and it’s a role he’s about to reprise for the fourth series.He joins me to talk about his own upbringing in Peckham, South London, an only child raised on a council estate by his mother, Pamela, and what it was like combining that reality with a burgeoning love for acting which sometimes felt like a double life. Plus, his failure to have invented Deliveroo (it's a long story), what prison taught him, the failure of toxic masculinity, his failure to remember lines and what being recognised by strangers has made him feel about this inner worth. I love love LOVE this episode because Ashley was so open and vulnerable in a way that just adds to his power. Enjoy!---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Ashley Walters @ashleywalters Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. For many of us, Ashley Walters is our favourite kind of anti-hero. As Duchesne, the East London drug kingpin who has a difficult relationship with his personal morality, he was top boy in the eponymous TV show. Despite all the terrible things Duchesne does, you always somehow end up rooting for him. This is largely down to Walters' brilliant performance, and it's a role he's about to reprise for the fourth series. Walters' own upbringing was in South London. He grew up in Peckham, an only child raised by his mother Pamela. After classes at the Sylvia Young Theatre School, Walter started working as an actor from the age of 14. A brief foray into music in his 20s saw

him find fame under the moniker Asher D as a member of the UK garage collective So Solid Crew. Shadi as a member of the UK garage collective So Solid Crew. Later, his film and TV credits grew to include Hustle, Small Island and Bulletproof. He recently made the move into directing. His debut was a short film for Sky Arts called Boys, and he mentors children at his local youth club. He's releasing new music in the spring. With so many strings to his bow, the NME dubbed him a walking inspiration. But arguably his most important role is as a father. He has seven children, a stepson and at the grand old age of 39, one grandchild. I first became a father at 17 and didn't have a clue what a dad was because I didn't have one myself he said I made a lot of mistakes but that's how you learn Ashley Walters welcome to how to

fail that was an amazing intro oh you're really good thank you did I get it all right yeah you did yes okay I thought he was going to go wrong with the amount of kids at one point, but then you added my steps on. So, yeah, it was all good. All good. Perfect. But I wanted to end on that note because that idea of making mistakes being how you learn is so foundational to this entire podcast. And you were talking about it in reference to being a parent. But is that something that you think generally in life?

Yeah, 100%. I'm making mistakes pretty much every week. With everything that I've got going on. Obviously being a dad, my relationships with my kids, sometimes not having time to be there for them and understand when they need you. And then sometimes being a bit selfish as well because my career takes up so much of my time, so much of my day.

In the back of your mind, you're like, you know, I've got to work, I've got to work, I've got to provide, I've got to pay bills, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. But I also sometimes forget that sometimes they just need a hug rather than, like, a bit of money or, you know, or someone to talk to. And especially with my older kids as well. You know, my oldest is like 22. And I had a really interesting conversation with my daughter last night.

She sent me a text. I got back from the broadcast awards I was at last night and I got back and it was just like this long essay WhatsApp from my daughter just saying like, you know, Dad, it would be nice if I heard from you a bit more. Our relationship is a bit distant at the moment. And, you know, I sat there and read it and it kind of brought a little tear to my eye because I was like, wow, you know, I thought I was checking in or whatever. But sometimes it's not enough.

So mistakes happen. And, you know, you can either be like, all right, whatever, you know, I'm giving you money, so leave me alone. Or be adult, you know, and realize like, you know, I need to do a bit so leave me alone. Or be adult, you know, and realise, like, you know, I need to do a bit more and try and create that time in your day and in your week. How old is your daughter, the one who sent you the message? She's 20.

I think that's so impressive and actually testament to the kind of father that you are, that she feels empowered to write that, that she's not scared to be vulnerable and to say that to you. Yeah, well, that's one thing I've always taught them, I guess, by default, by just being that person myself around them. I'm like, I wear my heart on my sleeve with my kids,

so I'm really honest with them. And I've been that way since they were young. So actually, even though we're distant, we never really have issues when we are talking about being honest with each other about how we feel. You know, I've always encouraged them, like with mental we feel. You know, I've always encouraged them, like with mental health and stuff like that, I've always encouraged them to kind of,

if they can't talk to me, you know, seek help. Talk to their nan, talk to my mum, or if they need counselling, they need therapy or whatever, like don't be afraid to seek those avenues to get things off your chest. So we've always had quite candid conversations that can be, I mean, sometimes quite heated, but, you know, not all the time. But a lot of the time, you know, they've been quite open

about growing up boyfriends, what they're experiencing, stuff like that, like things that, I don't know, I probably wouldn't have told my mum as a kid, you know. So where do you think that comes from then, that knowledge that it's important to talk and connect through vulnerability? I guess for me personally, I've seen so much people be affected by mental health, especially the men that have been in my life. And I grew up, and I don't know if I can say it this way, but it's the truth. I grew up surrounded by women that always encouraged me to talk, sometimes against my will.

So it was like, you know, growing up with my mum was like anything that happened, we had to sit down and have like an hour long conversation about it. You know, it wasn't just a thing that I could just say, you know, this happened and go about my business. And, you know, my gran was the same. My aunt was the same. And it was just kind of that environment. So I guess that just kind of got passed on to my kids like you said in your intro I had my first son really early I was like 17 and I was a kid so they grew up as my friends if I'm honest with you you know there wasn't that authority and like hierarchy and in our relationship it was more like you know I was

bringing them along on the journey with me so they saw a lot of things that they maybe shouldn't have and experienced a lot of things that they shouldn't have but yeah I was very very open with them from an early age and that thing about not having a dad to build your own perception of what a father should be do you think you put pressure on yourself to be quote-unquote perfect as a parent but also and it's such an overused phrase but a role model to the younger generation like how much pressure does that feel for you there was loads of pressure for that I think I was always searching for a dad somewhere and I only realize this now I didn't realize at the time that's what I was doing through my behavior, but it was always, you know,

I was getting involved with gangs. I was, you know, hanging around with older guys that I shouldn't have really been hanging around with at the time or whatever, which actually eventually got me into music and got me into where I was with Soul Solid and stuff. But my intention was to kind of feel safe, really. It was about fear even though I

had younger brothers from my dad's side I grew up as an only child with my mum and I grew up in quite a tense environment in Peckham it was like you know there were a lot of gangs around at the time and it was like being by yourself you were a target so I was constantly being pushed and prodded and whatever by other people and it just like Soul Solid for me initially was like this is a group of guys that are really strong that will protect me then the music came second and then it just kind of spiraled from that so I was always like from an early age looking for a male sort of role model and then with the success of Soul Solid like overnight I was being called a role model you know I was being called the guy that other kids were looking up to and whatever

and that was crazy to me because I didn't have a clue but I took it on for a long time you know it's great for people to want that for their kids you know I want my son to be like you and whatever but the fact is I think everyone's gotta take care of their own you know I want my son to be like you and whatever but the fact is I think everyone's got to take care of their own you know in a crazy way I mean I'm good to look out for certain things but deep down you know I wouldn't want a lot of the kids that look up to me to make the mistakes that I've made I don't think they have to they can learn from them but you know I wouldn't want them to go through the things I've been through yeah I think that thing about being a role model it's such a flattening idea it's as if you're ordained that and then you can only be that one thing and it doesn't allow for someone to be imperfect

well that's it it stops you from actually I was a kid so it stopped me from being a kid really and like you know put that pressure on me that I had to be perfect. And the minute that you're on the front page of the paper, you go into prison. Which you did. Which I did. It's like the world comes down on you. It's like, what the hell? You know, that was a difficult thing to deal with for me.

And it was a huge mistake to make. Don't get me wrong, that will never change. But I did feel slightly isolated and, you know, by myself at that point because no one was expecting that or for it to go that far. And yeah, that was really hard to deal with. So forgive me if I get this wrong, but it was possession of a firearm. Yeah. But I read somewhere that it was about making you feel safe,

which makes such sense given the context you've just described. Yeah. What was prison like for you? How old were you when you went? I was 19, I think. I think I had my 20th birthday while I was inside, actually. But yeah, prison was tough. It was tough.

It was a place that I didn't want to be. I know a lot of people talk about prison and how easy prison seems to look for kids these days and young offenders or whatever, but I found it quite stressful, if I'm honest. And I woke up every day not wanting to be there. There was no moment that I felt comfortable or relaxed, but I am used to surviving. So it was one of those things, I knew the attitude that I had to have in there. And I'm not talking about like, you know, being aggressive or whatever, but just kind of keeping out of the way.

Yeah. You know, when you watch The Apprentice and there's always one in The Apprentice that like manages to last to the end, but is absolutely rubbish. Yeah. Because he just keeps out of things. And other people can't do that. People find it really hard to keep their mouth shut sometimes, but I find that quite easy when I need to, in like a crowded room of people or whatever. I can kind of go unnoticed if I want.

And I did that in prison every day, and I learned a lot from it. I was always told while I was in there by the staff and other inmates is that if you come to prison once, you're more than likely to come back. That's how it works. Like you will be back one day. Touchwood, I haven't been back yet, but I didn't want to be a statistic in that sense. So I had like a job to do when I got out. It changed my life because I was like, it was a huge shock to my system and losing everything that I had.

I was like, this can't happen again. And that's proved them wrong. Yeah, yeah. First of all, I loved So Solid Crew. It's so my generation. So thank you for some of the best music 21 seconds ago. I slightly want you to perform it for me, but maybe we'll do that off air.

No. But let's talk a bit about Top Boy before we get onto your failures. Yeah. Because it's talk a bit about Top Boy before we get onto your failures. Yeah. Because it is such a brilliant show. And I love the story about how it came back into public consciousness. Because Netflix heard about it via Drake. Is that right?

Yeah, I think that's how the story went. Drake has never kind of explained it fully. What I do know is, because we had this conversation, was that he found the show on YouTube. So I think he found parts of it on YouTube whilst he was making an album. He got so into Top Boy at the time. He was watching bits of it on YouTube whilst in the studio. So you know how they have like part ones, part twos and whatever. He was cutting it together himself. And I think that album was going to be called Top Boy because he was so into it at the time.

But anyway, long story short, he fell in love with the show and he posted. It was even on Instagram or Twitter. I can't remember. Like I woke up one morning to like hundreds of missed calls and texts on my phone and everyone was like, you know, Drake's posted a picture of you. After that, we got in contact via DM.

These weird negotiations started. You know, Drake's posted a picture of you. After that, we got in contact via DM. These weird negotiations started. You know, his manager got in contact with me. He was like, how do you bring the show back? And I was like, I know who owns the show or whatever. Because it was on Channel 4, wasn't it? It was. At that point, it had been off Channel 4 for like, I don't know, it was like four years maybe or something like that.

It was quite a long time. So no one knew, do you know what I mean, what was happening with it. We were like going back and forth about how to bring it back. So I put Drake in contact anyway with Cowboy, who were the producers of the show and was like, you know, you guys do your worst or your best. And then yeah, long story short, a year or so later, I got the call from the guys saying, yeah, Netflix have picked it up and Drake was the conduit. He was like the go-between and we were back on, which was amazing.

So will Drake have a cameo in the new series? I think they've been trying to get him to. He hasn't got a cameo in it. As far as I know, I mean, they could have filmed something separately and I don't know about it, but I doubt it. We were thinking about having him in the last season, the first season that we did for Netflix,

but it just didn't work out. And Jay-Z watches it as well, doesn't he? Apparently, yeah, apparently. I've spoken to close friends of Jay-Z, some of his team and one of his business partners who said he's a fan of it. So it's great to know that it's working out there, it's working in America,

it's working in other parts of the world. And we never kind of made the show with the intention of it being global or you know international especially when we were doing it for channel four we just wanted to get it right we just wanted to be the first show about this subject that actually people who are actually living that life can look at it and go yeah that's me that's kind of what I went through. Like, I believe this one. Because for so long, you know, we were having shows like that that were made that just were stereotypes. And the characters weren't real to us anyway.

And to people that have never lived that lifestyle, never been in those areas, never seen that sort of culture or whatever, they're going to take what they're given at the end of the day. You know, it's like, oh, so that's what it is. And it's like, it's entertainment to them, but to a lot of people, it's their real lives. And we've always wanted to tell the story right. I guess being with Netflix now, it's a huge machine. It's different. So we have to kind of broaden our stories and hopefully appeal to all sorts of people. But I think that's what's so brilliant about Top Boy and a large part of its appeal is

the specificity and the fact that there are no apologies made for that. You don't patronise your audience. And in America, they do that all the time. And people all over the world watch it. The Wire is a classic example of them not toning down that Baltimore accent. And so it feels only right that it should happen the other way around as well. Yeah, of course. But I think the other thing that I love about it is that it is a show with heart,

even though a lot of the action could be seen as heartless. There's something about what you bring to your character, which I think taps into that vulnerability we were talking about at the top of this episode. Yeah, yeah. There's real heart there. 100%. There's no other way I can act, really. I can try, but I think everything I do,

I walk in with that vulnerability. I'm always trying to find that side of the character. If you want to go on a journey with a character like Deshaun or Sully or whatever, you really have to understand what's motivating them. And then once you tap into that, it's kind of like you start rooting for them when you know that you shouldn't.

You know, you want them to succeed. And that's what this show has definitely been all about. I think that's what's made it so different to every other show that's trying to be like it, is that it has heart and that our characters are three-dimensional. They're well-rounded characters that you don't just see them killing people

and dealing drugs to their community you actually get a great understanding of how that affects them how it affects the community as well and why they're doing it you know what motivates them and I think that's important let's get on to your failures which I'm really intrigued by because you did that classic thing it's very smart which is almost like what you're like as a director. You say enough, but not too much. You don't over explain. Actually, when Emma asked me, she was like, you need to send me your.

Emma's your lovely publicist. Yeah, Emma, my publicist. When she asked for them, I didn't want to send them. I sat looking at the email for like five minutes because I was like, I don't like to give the game away before I'm like, it's going to take the sting out of it when I come. So I worked out a way to write it without actually. Oh, you actually thought about it. That's so sweet.

Sorry. Did you find the act of limiting it to three failures difficult? Was it difficult to choose which ones you were going to talk about? Yeah, it was difficult to pick. I mean, look, I've got loads. I just didn't think the others would be that entertaining. I mean, maybe one of these is quite depressing. Okay, great.

I love that. Let's get deep into the depression. But let's start with everything everywhere, which initially when I got this over email, I was like, that's just his state of mind about failure, that it's everything all the time everywhere. But actually it's a specific idea that you had. Yeah. All right, so's a specific idea that you had. Yeah.

All right, so back when I was growing up, there was a service called Deliverance. Yes, I remember. They did amazing pizza. Yeah, and I used to see their mopeds riding up and down. After that, I worked out an idea. I had an idea that I should make a company that sells everything, everywhere. So these guys on mopeds would go to places,

whatever you needed, cigarettes, alcohol, food, from whatever restaurant, they'd go to the place, pick it up for you and deliver it to your house. And this was, like, years ago. This was before Deliveroo and all that stuff that we have now, Just Eat and whatever else. And look now. So why did...

Huge, huge fail. Why did you fail to do anything about it I guess you're probably busier I was quite busy I also had a huge fear to succeed it's been a big part of my journey is like I'd have ideas and whatever but seeing them through was like not something that I was good at doing so all straight away you have an idea like that and then you realize how huge it is and then you start to shrink as a person like well I can't do this little old me or whatever but actually I should have pursued it Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history

that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated.

And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess,

we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news like it's not a question of if drake got his body done but when you are so messy for that but we will be giving you the b-sides don't you worry the deep cuts the niche the obscure like that one photo of nicole kidman after she finalized her divorce from tom cruise mother a mother to many follow let me say this on the wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts watch new episodes on youtube or listen to let me say this ad free So that fear to succeed, what's that about? Is that about feeling like an imposter that you would

never be good enough I think it's less that and more like shit if it wins how am I going to handle this okay do I have the minerals to deal with this success how do I handle being in that position how do you take on the pressures and the scale and all of that stuff? Like little old me. I think it's more that. And then you just get to the point where you're like, maybe it's easier if I just stay in my little space where I am. I feel like it was more about that.

So do you have that fear of success in what you're doing now? Because I mentioned in the intro that you're branching out into directing and that's increasingly important to you. Did you have the same fear there? Like, what if I win an Oscar? How am I going to cope? Cross that bridge when I come to it. No, I don't now.

I guess I've learned so much that kind of in the creative space, I have a slight fear, but I know I can manage it. And I associate the fear that I get with success and something being good so when it becomes difficult and a bit challenging for me I'm like yeah I'm in the right space like I know this is gonna work this is good when it's too easy I get a bit scared of it like this is probably gonna be crap this job or, do you know what I mean? So, and also I have some amazing people around me now. So it's like a lot of it afterwards, I can just be creative. And then the business that gets handled by him and those people. And, you know, those are people that I can trust.

It's a nice space to be in. And if I had that situation before where, you know, I was working on that idea, everything, everywhere, and I could have just created it created the business model and whatever and then kind of pass it on to people then I probably would have felt a bit more comfortable about it that makes sense I interviewed the feminist icon Gloria Steinem on this podcast a while back and she said that fear is often a signifier of growth and that's why people should learn how to recognize fear that's actually good for you that can be fueled for something greater yeah I've always understood look if I never had healthy fear if we didn't as humans a lot of us would. Yeah. Because bottom line is you've got to know when to not be somewhere.

You know, if someone pulls out a gun and you've got no fear, you don't run or try and get help, you're going to die. You know, so there's like, fear is a natural thing for us that we're meant to have. It's just how far you let that take control of you. Has that ever control of you. Has that ever happened to you? A gun being pulled on you?

Yeah. Yeah. It was the prompt for me to buy my own gun. Really, back in the day. It was actually pulled on my son. I don't even think he was one at the time. He was in a sling on my chest. So I guess it was me as well. I'm so sorry.

chest so I guess it was me as well I'm so sorry tell me then how you handled these two aspects of your life when you were a child one side which was growing up in Peckham having to live on your whips and be guided by healthy fear the other was this incredibly present mother who wanted the best for you and who sent you to Sylvia Young. So how do you handle the small boy on stage dressed up as a Charles Dickens character and the small boy on a Peckham estate? Did it feel like a double life? Definitely. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. The nail on the head, it was a double life.

It was acting. Right, of course, it's acting that's pretty pretty much what it was it was like i don't know which one was me i guess like it got to that point because no uncertain terms you had to have a certain front you know living there and look i'm not trying to be one of those people that like you know it was so bad and whatever. Because actually, when you exist in a certain place, you're that used to it. You don't see it the way other people see it. And I always say this when I'm like directing, especially when we were doing Boys. It was like everyone's idea was like, you know, this is a road movie or whatever.

And I was like, actually, no, what I'm trying to make is a story of hope here. Because as bad as it looks for these kids they don't know that it's bad it's what they're used to it's what they wake up to every day so it's life to them you know they're trying to find the joys in it or whatever so we should make this bright and they should be wearing colorful clothes and let's make the music a bit more encouraging and whatever it's not doom and gloom. That's like a spectator's opinion. Someone that drives past, you know, those areas every day in their car and looks through the window and goes, oh, that house looks terrible or whatever. But actually inside

that house, there's a mum with a child having fun, laughing and joking and doing their daily routine. That's what I wanted to capture. So, you know, it was bad at times. It was scary at times or whatever, but it was actually my my life I guess what I'm saying is I learned how to put masks on I could be at Sylvia Young with loads of like middle class white kids that had completely different lifestyles to me or whatever and I'd be fitting in with them and trying my best to, you know. Tell us a bit about Boys and what the story is. Boys, in a nutshell, is about a young kid who's on the cusp of, you know, being a boy and manhood and wakes up one day, gets a letter from his brother

who's currently serving time in prison, who's asking him to send him loads of stuff, clothes, PlayStation, this album I made with my friend, etc., etc. He has no money, and a lot of this stuff costs money, and he has to navigate and work out how to get this stuff for his brother. And they spend a few days, him and his friend, best friend,

trying to work out how to do it. I mean, there's some complications along the way. He feels that he has to turn to selling drugs because that's the only way. It's a damning decision for him to make because obviously his brother's in prison for doing the same thing and his brother has no realisation kind of the pressure he's putting on his little brother

to get the stuff for him and doesn't realise that it's pushing him into a situation that could see him end up in the same place. So that's the spine of the story. But wrapped around that is love, is manhood, working out what a man is and friendship and loyalty. I was about to say that, again, I keep going back to this word heart.

There's so much heart and beauty in that film. It's got a very memorable opening scene, which is something that a lot of teenage boys do. I'll just leave it at that. But by the end, you show your teenage protagonist crying and there's something so beautiful and refreshing about that. I feel like you don't often see that on screen. Yeah, you don't. You that on screen yeah you don't

you don't like I wanted the boys to be quite what's the word tactile love between men in those environments in those places places like where I grew up I like you don't see portrayed on tv yeah but there's a lot of love there I hug friends. I love my friends and I show them I love them. There's this tendency for everyone to see that as like an off-putting image, especially between black men. And I was trying to break that down a bit. We do it in Top Boy a lot as well, specifically with like, you know, Jamie, Michael Ward's character and his brothers, just the way we kind of get them together and make them lean on each other literally sometimes it's like I think it's a beautiful thing to see there's a

lot of barriers up when it comes to kind of bromance and male love and stuff the fact that the word bromance exists shows how uneasy we are about it yeah they shouldn't have to they shouldn't have to be a special word exactly you don't have to answer this but i'm going to ask you anyway because i'm interested about friendship because one of your closest friends was noel clark who you starred with in bulletproof and you came out in support of the women who have alleged that he sexually assaulted them i suppose i wanted to ask you how difficult it is because friendship is so important to you how difficult it is treading that line between loyalty and acknowledging something that your friend might have done wrong where are you at with that it was an emotional time for me I'll say that first and foremost

because like you said I am a loyal person and you know I take my friendships really seriously but I'm learning to speak up for what I believe in at the end of the day. You know, I couldn't stand by and not say what I said. Bottom line, I had no understanding. I mean, a lot of those cases seem quite historical and obviously there were some recent ones, but I didn't witness anything like that.

But what I said is that I would never agree with anything like that. It's not how I've been brought up up it's not something that I can do. Pamela wouldn't have any of it? My mum would never have any of that you know I've been brought up by some really strong women and I've got some really beautiful strong women in my life and I just would never want them to have to experience anything like that or go through anything like that and my heart just went out to the people that were, you know, making those accusations, allegedly, obviously, but the bottom line is I had to stand on the side that I'm on. And I'm sure that upset a lot of people as much as a lot of people were, you know, happy that I did, but it was my stance. I stuck with it.

Whatever the consequences are for that, then so be it. Thank you, Ashley. No worries. Let's talk about your second failure, because we were talking about finding your voice and standing up for what you believe in. This is when you lost your voice, in a sense, because you forgot lines whilst performing at the Royal Court.

Tell us what happened. It's absolutely terrible. I was on stage on a play called Oxford Street, which was written by Levi Adai. Daniel Kaluuya was in this play. Never heard of him. Kidding. Priya Kalidas, all good friends of mine still. We've been doing this play for 25 days already.

We were in it. Just one afternoon, there's this huge scene with me and one of the other leads which is like this scene is so important it's like the pivotal scene of the whole thing so if you don't do this scene correctly if you miss this scene you don't get the story the play doesn't make any sense at all I'm just trying to build like you know how important this whole thing is I come out and you know the scene we're in a stock room of a like a trainer shop something like you know like JD Sports or whatever and I'm talking to this guy about how we're gonna steal trainers setting up

the plot I went from my opening line to my last line because I just forgot everything terrifying yeah so literally I'm looking at this guy because he's sitting across from me in the scene. We were upstairs in the Royal Court. It's a space like this room. It's intimate. The audience are in the scene with you. Like there's an audience member sitting next to me on my left and my right or whatever.

And like we're having this conversation and he's looking at me like, you know, obviously no one can see me now, but he's like, his eyes are wide open. wide open like bro you've just missed a whole thing like go back go back he's trying to willing me to say the right thing but it was too late I just didn't remember it so rather than sit there with my mouth open catching flies I just went to my last line so it was literally like I just went to my last line. So it was literally like,

so this is what we're going to do. Anyway, I'm going. And everyone, yeah, it was crazy. I've had nightmares about that for like the rest of my career. Like I still do now have nightmares about being on stage and forgetting lines because it definitely happens. So, yeah.

How did you rectify it in that particular instance? We didn't. We just had to continue. Like, I had a break after that. Everyone came into my dressing room like, what the hell, what's going on? I just forgot, you know, and we just had to pick it up. And I feel sorry for the audience that paid for their tickets because they didn't get the full experience. The play didn't make any sense after that point so I was once in the audience

and I saw Lenny Henry in Educating Rita and he just completely forgot his lines and he broke character apologized the audience walked off stage to collect himself and then came back on and what was so interesting about that was the amount of goodwill in the audience when he came back on stage. And all the reviews the next day were so positive. They were like, how brave of him to do that. It's so interesting, isn't it? He's a brave guy.

Oh my goodness. Look, I think I'm really proud of him for that because I'm too proud to do that. My pride was too high. I was like, they don't know. They haven't heard it before. So I'm going to blag it without like realising I've just messed up the whole story for them.

I'd be the same as you. Pride is an interesting thing. Do you think it helps you more than it hinders you? At this moment in time, I've been through such significant changes in the last like two, three years of my life that I've worked out like pride can be pretty dangerous like I was kind of alluded to with like mental health and stuff like that it's like you

know your pride can stop you from opening up and talking to people to be in the position that I'm in like I feel like there is a lot of pressure sometimes when it comes to being the breadwinner the main person and ever if you go to anywhere, you go to take my daughter to a birthday party in Herne Bay and whatever, and it's like the focus is on you. When's Top Boy coming out? When's this going to be? Whatever.

And it's like you're constantly having to be the front man. But sometimes you need to lean on other people. And people find that crazy, that whole thing of like, well, you need to talk to me. You need to cry on my shoulder or whatever. It's like, yeah, I'm human. So it'd be easy to pretend that I don't. It'd be easy to keep it all in or whatever, and I used to do that a lot.

But, you know, I've changed a lot. My routines have changed in my life, and that has meant, you know, I don't care what anyone else really thinks of me anymore. Really? Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I guess it comes with age as well. I don't know. You're younger than me and I'm still not there yet. No.

Maybe it's having children. Maybe that's the thing that makes the difference. It's just realising that I've got no control over you. Anything that's going to happen, people, places, things, it's like they're going to do what they want to do. I can spend years and months resenting and wishing other people would do what I need them to do, but actually it's not going to change anything. I can only change the way that I react to things

and I have a better life if I just forget about it. Do you know what annoys me about it? Is if I feel I've been deliberately misinterpreted if someone has the wrong sense of who I actually am there's a bit of me that feels that like injustice or unfairness like actually I'm not that it could also be said that maybe you think you are that's why it bothers you so much oh that secretly I think I am like maybe there's something underneath like that's the way I'm starting to look at things now it's like if it really gets me little things happen I walked down the carriage of a train the other day I was going

to Halifax and I had my mask down and there was a lady sitting as I was walking with her husband and as I walked past her she went you know really like pulled herself away from me or whatever and my mind straight away was like are you what was that all about and then I realized it was my mask and I sat down ended up for 15-20 minutes me thinking what does she think of me yeah well and actually I should need to stop caring why am I wasting my time worrying about what her opinion of me is and actually probably all the things that I was thinking that she is thinking about me are wrong she's probably just like I don't want COVID like it's probably pretty simple but you know my mind goes to race to this

to do you know what I mean prejudice or whatever and I'm just going through all this stuff and it's like come on you know and I just don't want to be a person that lives my life like that anymore and also you waste a lot of your time you know do you think you've suspended that need to prove people wrong to prove those prison guards wrong to prove the people who might have had a stereotypical assumption of who you are wrong I've had to put a stop to it I feel because I was losing myself. When I came out of prison my main objective was to make people like me. It was like I'm not a gun-toting gangster like the papers have been saying. I am going to make people like me. I'm going to do everything to make people love me and forget about that gangster Ashadi that they had in their mind.

I was changing the way I probably dressed, the way I talked to people, being the smartest I could be, being the most articulate in the room, changing people's perception on a daily basis. It was a lot of pressure and then actually you start to lose yourself. And the people that actually know you are like hold on where's Ashley gone what about you but everything I was doing was like shall I make music like this will people think it's bad well should I make movies like that you know I'm not going to be in any movies with guns because I just don't want to be put back in that position and I feel like I've had to put a stop to that now

and just get back to being creative and get back to like doing the things that I love you know I mean I find that so moving because we talk quite a lot on this podcast about people pleasing and I think sometimes I wrongly make the assumption that it mostly affects women and a sort of specific type of high achieving woman who always takes on overtime at work and never gets paid properly for that but actually what you're saying is prison made you into a people believer. Like coming out, that was your objective to make people like you. And I just find that really moving. Yeah, it was my life.

And not everyone has this attitude. I guess I did what I did. It's over now. I'm not that person. And move on, like we were just talking about. I wanted to prove people wrong. That's what it became about, was like, no, no, I'm that little kid that went to Sylvia Young and did tap and ballet

and whatever. You got me all wrong. I just got mixed up for a bit. So I spent a long time trying to like prove to people that I was a different guy and the bottom line is you know maybe it did help me a bit it has helped me to get my career back on track and stuff like that but actually it took a lot of me away and I've been happy in the last few years I'm like no I'm not doing that anymore is your wife good at sensing when you need a shoulder to cry on when you need someone to see you as you really are nope I love that you're just like no nope

I know she will listen to this as well look she's a great wife she's an amazing person but she's never had these hang-ups in my eyes she's perfect i know there is no such thing as perfect but as a like a person she's just never in trouble and she's my strength when it comes to like i'm always the first to cower i'm always the first to like babe let's not argue in the restaurant for you know the food was wrong or whatever but she's always like no no look you didn't give us this I want my money's worth I want this I want that or whatever and I'm always trying to like let's just get in and out be quiet whatever so she's the better half of me in that sense because a lot of the time I do still find it difficult to say no to people like when it comes to doing things that I don't want to do or I know will help someone else,

but I just haven't got time to do it or whatever. But she's always the one in my corner like, no, you ain't got time for that. I think what she does find tough is being vulnerable and weak as well. Yes. Sometimes her strength can be quite intimidating to me in the sense of you know in our relationship when it comes to like what she expects of me like and how it needs to happen she likes to have a healthy control of her environment and what's going on it sounds really similar to my dynamic in my relationship where I'm the you and my other half is the Danielle, where I think you and I are kind of introspective warriors.

I also find it really difficult to say no. And I so value, exactly as you say, having someone in my corner who's like, you need to get better at boundaries. Yeah. Look, our parents didn't believe that this was going to work when we met each other because we are so different in that sense. There are a few strong things that link us that we're definitely very connected on but as people are like we're the

opposite ends of the spectrum like but I think that works yeah it's just worked for us it'll be our 10th anniversary this year you know people were expecting us to fail in year one you know what you did Ashley you? You proved them wrong. Yeah, always, yeah. There's a theme going on here. Before I get on to your third failure, I just wanted to ask what you think you learnt from that moment where you forgot your lines.

What do you think it taught you? A couple of things that, you know, I'm not invincible. Anyone can make mistakes. And two, prep. Before the show, the other guys would go down on stage and you'd hear them over the tannoy, you know, doing their mouth exercises. Oh no, doing all this stuff.

And I would be in the dressing room like, idiots. Idiots. What is wrong with these people? I should have been down there as well. is there a piece there about taking yourself seriously too about actually it's okay to take what I'm doing seriously here yeah of course of course like I've always loved being on stage as a energy as a craft it is different from doing TV or film. It's just like a different muscle that you're using. But it's just so much more fun being on stage and being in the moment like that

rather than doing takes over and over again. So I've always loved it. But I've never enjoyed the process. I've always felt that it was slightly self-indulgent, like the way people talk about characters and the amount of time you have to spend around tables with people going, yes, well, he's, you know, he's really talking about all that stuff. And I'm like, bro, it's like simple. He's like, he's this and that.

Let's just get on stage and do it. So, yeah, there's always been that side of it that has kind of made me slightly distanced from real theatre actors. There's a barrier for me, like getting into a relationship with them, because I just don't want to be taught like that. I don't want to be that deep about it. But like I said, with age, growing up or whatever, those things are really important. I see the value in them on stage, in film and TV. Prep is a huge part of it. And I wanted to be the kind of edgy, I'm not really planning this, but I have sort of thing.

So, you know, no one knows how you do it so well. But if you don't, it's quite risky. You mentioned that your co-star in that play was Daniel Kaluuya, and he's a friend. I mean, you're're very successful what's it like seeing your friends succeed because sometimes it can be great but sometimes as Gore Vidal once says when you see your friend really succeed a little piece of you dies yeah yeah it hasn't happened with Daniel look I get where they're coming from when we did that show together Daniel was just starting and he kind of came on board that show and was like, you know, it's amazing to be working with you.

It's kind of like in the beginning, quite speechless. We were just together every day. We had so much scenes in the play together that we just like really grew this relationship. I love the kid. Like I'm just like, it's very hard to find people that are just beautiful people that you just like click with, especially actors.

It's tough. So, you know, I've really kind of warmed him and we really developed a really nice relationship throughout working on that play. And then cut to, do you know what I mean?

Get Out, Black Panther, you know, all these amazing films that he's done. It's just surreal a lot of the time. Because actually, he's still the same person. There's no shift in his personality or how down to earth he is

and how much time he will have for me and stuff like that. But the rise to success and where he is is amazing. And look, I'll be honest, some of the things that he's done, I've not achieved. It's as simple as that. So if it was a race, he's slightly like overtaken me, but it's inspiring for me. And it's amazing how I could have inspired him to be a part of it. And then now he's inspiring me to want more for myself. That's beautiful.

I think that's a great thing. Yeah. And it's not a race. So that's the good news. Well, it's a marathon. Exactly. Exactly. So let's get on to your third failure.

Charge or cash story. This is an embarrassing moment, apparently, involving a waiter and your daughters. Tell me what it is. It's pretty simple, but it's funny and it was pretty embarrassing I took my daughters out my two daughters they live in Leeds so when I go up there I do like a long weekend how many daughters do you have and how many sons do you have I have four daughters and four sons yeah half and half yeah so yeah my daughters they're 11 and 9 took them out to a really nice ice cream place.

You get ice cream, waffles or whatever. You know, we ordered some stuff, we're eating and the staff are walking around. But the staff are kind of like, that's Ashley Waters or whatever, talking about me. And my daughters are getting used to seeing it now. And it kind of upsets them because we don't get that much time together. So they're like, they're getting on my nerves. Whatever. Anyway, I asked for the bill from one of the waiters and he disappeared.

And then another waiter came over to the table and said what I thought was wagwan ash. Okay. You know where this is going. So I got up and was like, yo, what are you saying? High five, hugging this guy, whatever. And he was like, no, I said, charge your cash. I'm laughing now. I'm nearly in tears.

My daughters, that was like all the way home in the cab. They just couldn't believe it. They were cracking up. It's so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. I'm glad they got like a real funny moment out of it. It was the most embarrassing thing. So my ego was like, you know, they're talking about me, you know,

all fed into me getting up and giving this guy a hug. I nearly asked him, like, do you want a picture? He was like, no, just pay the bill. Just pay the bill. Just charge your cash. That was it. I mean, I know it's difficult for your daughters, but do you like being recognised?

I'll say now that it can be quite annoying, but if I go places and I'm not, it bugs me. That is one of the most honest things I've ever heard. It's like... Yes. Yeah, you get that used to it, that it's like, hold on. Am I not important anymore, you know? Check my Instagram, what's going on?

Have I been cancelled? It just becomes a part of your life. But it is slightly intrusive at times. You do want to have some moments to yourself my whole thing has been about getting my my house out of London secluded or whatever so I can have some real family time when we were living in London it felt like because we were so on top of each other or whatever that we had to go out to do you know what I mean, to get some space. Yes. And that just meant being open to everyone all the time. Whereas, like, at our house now, you've just got that space.

You know, I've got my gym there, building a cinema room at the moment. We've got, the kids have got, like, some huge space or whatever. The office is there. My studio's going to get built there or whatever. So it just feels like you can have some of those fun outdoor moments in your own sort of setting. It's an introvert's dream.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe it's quite dangerous. I don't know. Build yourself an entire city. Yeah, yeah. It pretty much is what's happening. Watersville. What does your mum think of the success you have made of your career?

She's really proud. She's really proud of what I've done. My mum's been there through some rough times. She's seen me go through some crazy stuff. So she's been quite fearful a lot of the time. You know, whether it's been through Soul Solid to later on in my career. There's been some tough moments where, you moments where my head's just not been right. And no matter how successful it's been to everyone else,

it's like she just wants her son to be happy and safe. So yeah, it's been tough. Always a sigh of relief when I see her now, just in the place that I'm at now. But I guess there's always something in the back of her mind maybe that it could change. And when you say when your head hasn't been right, have you got better at understanding the signs

when that starts to happen and knowing what to do about it? Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, the first thing's first is connection. It's just connection. Because I'm one of those people, I was like, everything's getting on top. I just like, I can deal with it. It's fine. I will take this all on board.

You know, everyone's issues. Down to the minor, I missed Christmas because my mind said that I must be the caterer. We hired caterers. But I said that, no, I'm handling Christmas so I stayed in the kitchen bringing everyone their plates and whatever by the end of the day I hadn't eaten hadn't spoken with any of my family this is all throughout Christmas day and everyone's there and I resented everyone because of it but I made the decision to do it that's the sort of person I am if there's a challenge like I want it I'm gonna do this better it. That's the sort of person I am. If there's a challenge, like I want it,

I'm going to do this better than everyone else's. And it just builds and builds and builds to the point you're like, well, no one's helped me, you know. And I can hold things in for so long that it just, the way I react when they come out is sometimes astonishing to people. That's not the Ashley they know. Because you'll be emotional or the Ashley they know because you'll be emotional or you'll be angry or you're angry sometimes definitely emotional I cry a lot like

good it happens yeah so yeah people can be quite like I don't know you like that like usually quite calm and can handle pressure but that's what they think actually inside it's going crazy I'm just on the outside I'm just trying to keep it together so yeah I've learned how to kind of when I'm getting into that frame of mind to just I need to delegate or I need to just say no I'll step back from this right now, or we're going on holiday, or whatever it takes to just centre myself again. And do you still go to therapy yourself? No, not at the moment, but I've got a lot of tools from therapy that I use. There's a lot of meditation, a lot of reading, a lot of praying,

things that really help me, and just a lot of connection with people that have gone through the same things that I've gone through. know we can just exchange stories and do you know what I mean yeah I do feel free and feel open to talk about what's going on in your head without them feeling like you're crazy because they're going through it as well it's good I'm so glad that we are ending this chat talking about connection because it's one of the most important things in my life. I have only connect tattooed on my wrist. And there's a quote that I love, which I actually saw on your Instagram about connection being the opposite of isolation, connection being the opposite of alienation, of addiction. And it's almost like I feel you and I are quite similar in that we're probably both a bit addicted to control.

That's why we want to manage other people's expectations. That's why you want to make Christmas Day perfect. Almost like I feel you and I are quite similar in that we're probably both a bit addicted to control. That's why we want to manage other people's expectations. That's why you want to make Christmas Day perfect. That's why you hold yourself to such a high standard. And that idea of connecting in your vulnerability is so powerful and so truthful. And I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being such an honest authentic individual it felt really really special this conversation and I can't thank you enough no thanks for having me it's been amazing I really enjoyed it I've loved it too thank you if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with Elizabeth Day I would so appreciate it if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you

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