How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S13, BONUS EPISODE! How To Fail: Candice Carty-Williams

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

So many people have requested this guest and now I'm beyond thrilled to oblige! Yes, that's right it's author Candice Carty-Williams whose first novel, Queenie, became a publishing sensation. Queenie won the 2019 Book of the Year at the British Book Awards making Carty-Williams the first Black author to do so. Now, her second novel People Person is about to be published, a TV adaptation of Queenie for Channel 4 is in the works and she’s writing an original drama for the BBC.She joins me to talk about growing up in South London, re-writing her novel through lockdown, why she regrets not having therapy sooner and what she's learned about boundaries. Plus: Amy Winehouse. She also opens up about the death of one of her closest friends and what it taught her. And: why readers assuming her books are autobiographical is actually kind of annoying.--People Person is published next month but you can pre-order it here: https://www.waterstones.com/book/people-person/candice-carty-williams/9781398710542---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Candice Carty-Williams @candicec_w Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger, because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Candice Carty-Williams was working full-time as a publishing marketing executive when she wrote her first novel. It told the story of the life and loves of a 25-year-old Jamaican British woman called Queenie. It became a publishing sensation. Queenie won the 2019 Book of the Year at the British Book Awards, making Carty Williams the first black author to do so. Now her second novel, People Person, is about to be published. A TV adaptation of Queenie for Channel 4 is in the works, and she's writing an original drama for the BBC.

But being a full-time writer was never her career plan. Growing up in South London, Carty Williams has said she didn't believe author was an attainable goal. That changed when she was excluded from school for a week in her teens. Her stepfather sent her to the library every day and reading became her refuge. She devoured Catherine Cookson, Virginia Andrews and Mallory Blackman. When later Carty Williams started working in publishing, she was struck by how few fictional characters represented her reality. So she wrote Queenie. Critics have hailed it as both a smart and breezy comic debut

and astutely political, an essential commentary on everyday racism. As for Carty Williams herself, she says she simply wanted to write a female protagonist who seemed real. So many women, characters and in real life, are meant to be nice, she has said. Why is that? I'm not interested in being nice. What a boring descriptor. Candice Carty-Williams, you are so welcome on How to Fail. Thank you for being un-nice. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. i so agree with you when i came across that quote in an interview you gave i was sort of fist pumping in the air because i find it so annoying when

readers sometimes take predominantly female authors to task for writing quote unquote unlikable characters because i don't know about you but I feel like there's no such thing as an unlikable character there's not and I just think that as a reader I've never been interested in that either the characters that I love to hate are the ones who are you know they're the ones who engage me you know so I was like none of this nice business and do you think there's a sense that that's how we expect women to be? We expect them to be nice and pliable and likeable. And were you trying to challenge that with Queenie? All the time. I think that women in fiction, women on television, women in real life are expected to be nice and to be the caregivers. And I find that really boring. And it's just not what I subscribe to.

And it's not what I'm interested in, in my life and also what I engage in. So I think I knew that Queenie was going to be quite irritating. And that was fine. But I also wanted to surround her with women in the novel who are also, I don't want to say flawed because it's not even flawed, just real and three-dimensional and have stuff. I think that's really important because we are all made up of that. And I think that, yeah, any opportunity for a woman to not have to be, because what is nice? Nice is basically,

it's a front, I think. So I don't want to do that. I don't want to write that. Tell me more about that, about nice being a front. Because we're expected to be nice. I think we have to put the mask on. And I remember throughout so much of my publishing career, just having to put the mask on. And I found that so tough. I think that would just break all the time because I was always like, this isn't real and this isn't me. And I'm a nice person, generally, you know, so to speak. I mean, some people would disagree. But I tried to be nice and I tried to be caring in that way, but I also don't believe that nice is a full person. And so I think that when we put that mask on, we end up having to strip away parts of ourselves. And being nice is usually that just translates into trying to make people comfortable. There's so much I want to ask you about your writing and your second novel, People Person, which we'll come on to but I also want to ask you about publishing because you're in a fairly unique position that you've seen it from inside and outside as someone who

worked for publishers and then published a book yourself it is a notoriously white middle-class industry yes and I mentioned in the introduction that critics said two things really about Queenie amongst loads of the praise. They referred to Queenie as a black Bridget Jones, but they also, different critics, made the point that it was a sort of quote unquote political book. And I suppose my slightly inelegantly framed question is whether you can ever write anything that isn't political. As a black British woman working in this specific industry it feels very much like the personal is political do you agree I do agree I don't think you can and there's a book called the other black girl which is American and it's kind of a horror that it's a black girl who's working in the publishing industry and the author has politicized

it in the way that it has to be political because like horror is basically political but like all of those things are coming to the forefront and the fact that you can't escape who you are when you work in this industry and that your existence is seen differently and you're perceived differently and the ways that people engage with you are just based on I guess their understanding of who you are rather than the person that you are and I remember when I started working in publishing, taking everyone for who they were, because of course I would do that, but just understanding so clearly that they were seeing me as someone different from the off. And so, yeah, I think that when your existence is political because of how you are framed, anything that you create is going to have to show that. But

it is exhausting because, and even if you're not trying to say something you end up saying something because the people who are receiving you are having to do kind of like double think to work you out and then ask you about it so then you have to explain it and it's not your role to explain it's your role to write a really great story which you did thank you yeah basically yeah but the other way in that I think it was refreshingly political is that Queenie opened with the protagonist being given a gynecological examination which I bloody loved because you hardly ever read about that in fiction let alone open a book with it and it was so relatable and I was sort of I was sort of

astonished that no one had thought of doing that before or that I had never thought of doing it before because it affects all women really and it was just such a genius thing to do did you always intend on starting the book that way yeah so it wasn't even necessarily to shock and a lot of people are like oh yeah you have this shocking opening that really brings us in and it that wasn't my intention I knew that Queenie as as black women often are would be seen as this incredibly strong person even though what she's going through is really really tough and she's showing her vulnerabilities on every page but I wanted to start her off in the most vulnerable position that you can really find a woman because I wanted people to empathize with her in that way

if that makes any sense so I I was like, I don't want you to be walking down the street feeling confident or feeling positive or in the middle of an argument. I want people to come at you as being fully exposed in every single way that a woman can be just so that people would warm to her or understand her. Yeah. And you're very funny as well. And I think you do a very good job in both Queenie and People person, your hotly awaited second novel of balancing humour with depth. Thank you. I just want to salute you for because it's so hard to write a second novel, I imagine after an astonishing success with your debut. Did you find it difficult? It was crazy. So a couple of authors including kit devol said

because we've got the same agent and i met her at my agent's party and she said you know i reckon you just like you got to try and get the second one done before all the queenie press starts because that's going to be a lot and i was like okay yeah that makes sense so i sat and i wrote this whole second novel and i submitted it i'm'm agent and editor. We're like, yeah, this is great. This is really great. And when I was editing it in lockdown, I was like, I'm not vibing with this at all. Like this feels like lockdown changed us all so much. And because I'd had so much time

to forcibly sit with myself and think about the person that I was, think about how everything around Queenie had affected me. When it came to this novel that I'd written before I had been that person, I was like, no, this isn't me anymore. So I actually binned that. And when I saw my editor, I was like, hi, just so you know, I've started a new one. And she was like, right. All right. Right. Okay. Yeah, we can make it work. Right. I have been pissing her off up until today but this version of people person this felt like the one I wanted to write about and I love it so much and it was painful at times and at so

many points I was like I am not going to be able to how am I going to finish this I just had no idea how I was going to do it because I'm talking about stuff that is close to me but far from me because it's fiction and also just being in a different space and also like still doing Queenie stuff and being like okay so there's that one obviously Queenie's done its own thing but my agent Jo Unwin she said to me I think that you're comparing all the big stuff that happened with Queenie all of the things that you've done since then all the interviews all the things you've been invited to you're comparing that to what you're writing now which is just a draft you sit in your pajamas and you write a draft and so like get that out of your head before you just like do you know I mean like the pressure of she was basically like this is not

the same thing the pressure of like this is not the same as what Queen did so just like get out your head and that was the best advice because I was like you're right let me just like get this story out and then like everything else would come to and that was really helpful people person has one of the most striking opening chapters I have ever read I thank you honestly that first chapter is so good I was like how how is she doing this because I don't want to give too much away, but basically it's a family of five, well, five half, well, two full, well, five siblings. There are five siblings. Yeah, there we go. There we go.

Everyone shares the same dad. So first of all, I just don't know how you handle that many characters. Do you have loads of post-it notes all over your study? No, I just know them. I just know them. It's really interesting. I basically start with like who they're going to be. Like I just have, I'm like, okay, what's their name? That's the first thing. So I do their names and then I have to do their star sign. And as soon as I've done their star sign, I just know who they are. And so I'm like, okay, let's go. Do you know what I mean? Like that's the easiest thing for me to do because I spent, I'm really into the Zodiac. I don't know. I'm not like a witch, but I just spend a lot of time figuring people out as per who they

are because of their star sign if that makes sense so I'm like of course I know how to like work with you because I know the kind of person that you are and what you're gonna expect or what you're gonna give and so I also know who to avoid so that's how that's how I start so then basically because of that that's how I can like form their characters then they just argue in my head and it's actually very easy from there okay so Cyril Pennington is their dad and the opening chapter sees him make this appearance in an unforgettable gold jeep and he's driving around London to go and collect his children he is an extraordinary unique character and you don't shy away from the fact that he has, in many respects, been an absent father. And I wanted to know where that creation came from,

because I felt like he was living and breathing off the page. Yeah, he is just an amalgam of lots of the dads that I have known. So it's like a little bit of my dad, a little bit of like my friend's dad, a little bit of like other dads I've like met at family parties and been like, oh, I've got your number. He was just very easy to imagine

because I have just known that man in different forms. And so again, like character to me is never the problem. I don't even know what the problem is. The character stuff is never there. I think for me, it is just being able to like be present enough in myself to be able to sit down and write like that's always the thing because my brain is always going in 100 directions and I am such an emotional person I'm so tied to all my feelings that like if I am having like a bad day so like the weather is absolutely terrible today my SAD is like through the roof and so like I was just like I can't really do anything so I

know I can't do any work today because I can't connect with myself and so that's always a thing but like Cyril I just know Cyril I just know Cyril and I don't I don't dislike Cyril I really like Cyril because Cyril's just doing what Cyril can do you know that's all he can do yes exactly and I think that's the key to any kind of empathy let alone authorial empathy is understanding that people generally are doing the best they can do as the people they are and I think you show that really beautifully but that's I think will be so reassuring for a lot of listeners to hear that you start by connecting with yourself and if it's not going to happen you're kind enough to yourself to say it's not going to happen so I'm not going to write today can I ask you how long it took you to get to that acceptance of

yourself it's still something that I'm like trying to figure out But I think probably like properly in lockdown Because as I said lockdown was a time for being like Because I live by myself So I was like who are you now that you're staying still? What's going on? Let's talk And that was really really hard Because I had to like sit and figure out the stuff that I had been running from

Or the stuff that I was trying to avoid And the stuff that I was feeling running from or the stuff that I was trying to avoid and the stuff that I was feeling and like moving, moving, moving was great because it just meant that I could just like run away from it all. Lockdown was me being like, all right, you know, the world is in chaos and everything is really scary and everything is, you know, you're just grieving all the time. Everyone's grieving collectively, but like what's going on in your head and just figuring out like how I work and actually just, yeah, in such a head and just figuring out like how I work and actually just yeah in such a big way figuring out who I am and also work being a part of that and

work not being my life and just figuring out then so yeah some days of course work is not your life so obviously some days work is not going to happen because you don't feel connected to it and that was it you know so I'm going to say lockdown was that time for me and on a day when you do feel connected to yourself I understand that you will normally settle down to do work about four or five p.m yeah you're a night out even then if even then like a lot of the time it's like maybe when it's dark basically when it's dark because in the day I'm always like what hello what's going on and then when it's night so I'm like let's go so yeah it's usually it's usually night time and do you not need sleep like how much do you sleep now I'm just worried about you no I'm all right no it is I'm cool don't worry I don't sleep enough definitely and that's okay like I can just run

on like not a lot of sleep but it's better for me just because like my phone isn't going off and I'm not like worrying about if everyone is okay I spend a lot of my but it's better for me just because like my phone isn't going off and I'm not like worrying about if everyone is okay I spend a lot of my time being like if my phone rings it's because something happened to someone and so that's why I can write stuff that is you know like chaotic because like that's my brain but I usually like a good burst of writing which happens a lot is usually just like I sit down the opening of people person that was about 10,000 words and that was just one night. That was just me just being like, right, I'm changing it. I'm starting new. Let's just go.

And then 10,000 words later, and I think it was like 5am. I was like, yeah, yeah, that feels good. Dimple, one of the characters in People Person, like you is a cancer. I think I'm right in that. Unlike you is a wannabe social media influencer, but you gave this quote once, which just made me laugh. And I love to read it out now, which is, everyone asks me, are you Queenie? And it's so reductive and so frustrating. You don't ask Ian McEwan if he was a soldier

or if he had a premature ejaculation issue. Yeah, ever. It's really annoying. I was trying to find an article that I'd written for something so I had to google like Candice Carter-Williams and then like the name of the article the person interviewed and it was like frequently asked questions and the first one was is Candice Carter-Williams Queenie and I was like people are googling this stuff like seriously I can't it's mad and so yeah I find that really hard I find that such a strange thing that people would not just accept people to have an imagination like it's like that's my my job now

I get paid now to have an imagination so that's what I'm doing I mean it happens to women a lot more obviously but also you know there are so many problems around that and I would never ever read Queenie because I just didn't want to invite the comparison so like every event that I did they'd always say that oh can you start with the reading and I would say no because I was like people are just going to just take that away and assume that she is me and I found that so hard and so I also held that in my mind when I was writing this and I was like yeah we can have the same qualities me and Dimple she is very different to me she's a very different cancer to me because everyone has their different stuff it's usually trauma-based I just was like I need to write a character who no one can compare me to and that is yeah that's what I did when I wrote my first novel there was a sort of semi

photographic cover of a young girl with an oversized doll's house on her shoulder and I got asked whether that girl was me I got got like, literally, is that a child photo? Because it came up so often, whether it was autobiographical. And I think you're right that it happens to women a lot more as if we're not capable of looking beyond our own navel. But also, I think it's because maybe people find the notion of a woman who can imagine so effectively to be somewhat scary, which is a whole other thing. I think so. I agree with that but also like you know there is that really stupid societal idea that like women feel things

and men don't feel anything and so it's like I think it's assumed that like writing a novel is just like another one of our outlets for us to talk about what we've been going through whereas like men don't have to do that. And I find that really fucking annoying. Yeah. Well, talking about outlets to talk about what you've been going through, your first failure is not going to therapy sooner. So Candice, tell us about that and the journey that led you to therapy. I remember when I was really young, so I was at school and I was 11, 12, obviously I started school at 11. And very early on, my teachers said that I had behavioural issues, which I found really irritating because I didn't, I just asked a lot of questions.

And I knew even as an 11-year-old, I wasn't like badly behaved. I was just like, what does that mean? That doesn't make sense. I don't really get that. It was suggested as part of that to my mum that I had therapy. And I went to a therapist that was in Sydenham, I remember, after school at like four o'clock. And it was like every week. And eventually I just stopped going because I was like, this is weird. I felt like I was just getting told off all the time.

And that didn't really make any sense to me because I was like, I just don't think I'm doing anything wrong. So I didn't go back to therapy for ages because I was just like, I linked it in my head with something that was just like, you're just going to get told off about stuff. So I just carried on living life. And then when I was in my early twenties, I've said many times before that one of my best friends, he had cancer and that was really hard because it was like, I'd left university. I didn't really know what I was going to do I thought I was in control of my own life in some way and then when I realized like that this could happen my idea of what control was just spun out and I was super super anxious I was so anxious all the time

it was horrible it was like a really dark time in my life that I don't actually really think about because I think it's a bit too painful to think about but I can talk about it today but I was really ill for like two three years couldn't leave the house couldn't really eat lost so much weight I looked like a different person and I really didn't like it because to me that was just like you're just not well you're not yourself you can't cope and I've always been like relatively sociable like to an extent I'm not an extrovert at all but I like being around people basically like I'm not going to be in the middle of the room but I like being around people and I couldn't do anything I couldn't go anywhere I couldn't see my friends it was really really bad and eventually

I had CBT I remember I eventually went to the doctor and I was like yeah I'm really something is really not okay like I just my head is right. And they put me on the waiting list for CBT and they said, yeah, that's going to be a year. And I, after that two weeks, I called them up and I was like, if it's in a year, I won't be here because I can't do this. And they were like, okay, okay, we understand now. A couple of weeks later, I started seeing a therapist

as part of CBT. And actually one of my friends used to have to sometimes get the bus with me if I couldn't do it myself it was bad it was a bad time and at the end my CBT therapist was like it was like 12 sessions over 12 weeks and she was like you know you've done well but there is a core issue here that you aren't thinking about you know all this comes from something and I was like I found a therapist via Anxiety UK because the NHS waiting lists were very long. It was like means tested.

And these times I didn't even work in publishing. I didn't have a job. I was like freelancing here and there. And so I couldn't really afford therapy like that. So I found a means tested therapist and that was like 40 pounds a session, which is amazing. The thing with that was it was really great to do. But it was like when you go to therapy, when you're in in crisis you're really just there to like not be in crisis and so I then stopped doing it when I wasn't so so so anxious anymore I can generally cope with stuff it was a huge thing for me and then I just didn't do it after that I just stopped I was like all right I'm okay I can leave the house now and then slowly I started to like

rebuild my life and like did internships like like published internships, got a job, like had a boyfriend. And then I was like, OK, cool. Like this is OK. And I was like kind of just like coping with everything all the time. But I was able to do that stuff. So I was like, you're better in a way because you can leave the house. You can go to work. You can have a relationship. And then after everything that happened with Queenie and when lockdown hit I was like there's still something going on but I'm not in crisis so I obviously don't need to go to a therapist like I can leave the house so I'm all right when I found out that I won the British Book Award for best what was it book of the year when it was going to be announced a lot of people

would be like well done well done well done and I was like I absolutely hate myself and everyone saying that I'm amazing or like well done you're the best like this is what you've done is going to be so at odds with how I feel that it's going to really fuck me up and so like the day before it was going to be announced I found a therapist and I was like yeah there's some stuff I need to talk about and And I've been with her ever since, and it has changed my life completely. I'm with people that say everything happens for a reason, but I'm also kind of sad because I'm like, what life could you have lived if you'd done this before? But I'm also like, but you just had to get here, so it's fine.

First of all, I want to say thank you for talking with such openness and honesty about that, because I think it's so important that people hear it secondly I think it's so crucial it goes to the foundational premise of this podcast that what looks like success outside doesn't always feel like that inside and I just think you're a really amazing person for people to look to as an example of that level of bravery can I take you back to where it all began so when you were a teenager being told that you had behavioral problems what was going on for you at the time I was living with my mom and her partner and I'm never going to go into it that much I'm never gonna ever

talk about what was going on in that house just because there's family who would not I don't want to do that but effectively it was not a very good time and it was a really big struggle and also just like hormonal changes and also just like I had left the family that I had lived with in south west London to come to South East London. And basically I was very lonely. I was very lonely and I was also in an environment that was not good for me. And so I just spent a lot of my teen life just being by myself and also like wanting to be by myself because that felt safer than being with people. And it was hard because I'd come from an environment

that was always quite busy and quite nurturing. I had a lot of family around me when I was growing up. And then suddenly I was in this house and it wasn't like that. And that was really, really, really tough. No, it's all right. I'm all right. I'm making peace with it.

But that loneliness, I can't describe it. And I can never go, you know, it's like I can't describe it because it's a feeling rather than anything else but I remember being early and I think I just wanted to talk when I was at school I wanted to talk I wanted to ask questions because I didn't have a voice at home I basically was at school and I was like I don't want to be lonely I don't want to be quiet oh I'm so sorry and I know you're saying you're fine but I just my heart goes out to young Candice there in your family setup such as it was could you talk about mental health or was it

something that wasn't spoken about that much oh god not at all no not at all it wasn't a thing and also like it's really funny it was not actually it's actually not funny at all. It wasn't a thing. And also like, it's really funny. It was not actually, it's actually not funny at all. That's why I need to stop doing that. When I was growing up, my nan, she nicknamed me mother because she was like, you know, she's very wise, you know, she's very young, but she's been here before. And so she'd always call me mother because it was like this little girl who was always like asking questions and was like quite authoritative and was quite wise and would listen to things. And so from a very early age, it was just understood by me and by everyone else that I could just absorb and take things that adults should. And so that was a big problem because I ended up being like, I'm fine. I should just be strong and everything is about and around

that. And my family didn't really help that. And I remember if I'd ever said I was like sad it was just like go and have a cup of tea or go and say your prayers or don't think about that the hard thing about my family was like it was like I'm sad too but you don't see me talking about it and it was like sick okay cool I won't talk about it either and so I understood just like by absorption of that being kind of the thing that I should just keep it to myself because everyone else should and I should grow up and I should be like these women who keep all the stuff to themselves but I hear little things or I catch little passive-aggressive arguments you know they might say something one day and then be like but anyway never mind me I'm just you know and that was really hard

because there was obviously I didn't even understand the concept of like therapy I didn't understand talking about your problems let alone talking to someone who was a professional who could help you deal with them at the beginning of this interview you talked about how the character of Cyril Pennington in People Person is an amalgam of various people but partly based on your own dad was writing him in any way therapeutic for you not really like I've made like like my dad is just my dad I made peace a long time ago with the guy that my dad is and you know he just is who he is and that's kind of it I don't really chat to him and so I know that a lot of my issues around everything come from the people that I grew up with rather than my I didn't grow up with my dad

so it's kind of like I always kind of knew the role he had in my life was to be there sometimes and I grew to understand that so when I was young or even now I don't expect him to ever be like a father figure because he just isn't that person and he was never that person I never understood him to be that person and so he couldn't really let me down in that way and so I guess it was hard to explore in people person what a dad could be for people and what these characters assumed that their dad would have been for them because I know that for me I've never expected my dad to be anyone but who he is. But I'm dealing here with five of his kids, Cyril Pennington's kids, who were like, I always wanted differently from him. And that was really hard because I felt sad for them,

because I was like, I can see where that hope comes from. Yeah. So when I said in the introduction about how books were your refuge when you ended up in Lewisham Library as a teenager, is that true? Do you feel like they made you feel less lonely? Yeah, for sure. For sure, for sure, for sure. When I was young, I would just lock myself in my room and I would read. And then when I was told to go to bed, I would pretend I had a stomachache and sit in the bath and read because I was like, I don't know, I'm just really ill, I was told to go to bed I would pretend I had a stomach ache and sit in the bath and read because I was like oh no no I'm just really ill I've got to stay in the bathroom that was just the way that I got out of my head and my head is so busy all the time that I just

need to be somewhere else because otherwise my brain just goes into a million different places that I shouldn't go to but books had always been that thing for me and that is why I spent so much time in libraries and I spent so much time around them I don't know they just feel like a safe space needing to be outside of yourself and understanding that there is a world that is different to the one that you're in now was the thing for me too and not necessarily by being like oh you could be an author but just more like all these books represent all of these different versions of life that was really important to me because I just didn't like the life that I had. So when you started getting those internships and publishing that turned into a full-time job, was it depressing that you were confronted with the fact that

your reality growing up wasn't as reflected in fiction as it could have been? Obviously there is sadness around it, but I'm not really like a dweller because I live in my feelings so much that I'm like, well, we have to do something with it. And so I saw it and I was like, okay, what's next? Like, what do we do? So I wasn't like, oh God, like this is the reality. I was like, okay, cool. What do we do? Because I just clocked very quickly. And I immediately was like, hey, how do we fix this? And I went to like the bosses and I was like, yeah, how do we fix this? Or like, what can I do? Because that's just how my brain works. I'm just like, I'm sad, but I'm a doer, you know? And you created the Guardian and Fourth Estate BAME short story prize, which is, I think,

one of the first of its kind and such a brilliant prize and you did that yeah no it was the first of its kind like literally no one had thought to do anything like it but that's just reflective of the industry and no one being there to be like oh I see there's an issue here so how do I fix it and so I just had the idea I took a week off work I think I was also breaking up with my ex-boyfriend at the time but I remember just being like this is a good focus as well because I was just like took a week off and then it was like how would we do this and then I was sending my colleagues Tom and Lettice at the time all of these ideas and being like how can we do that could you help me with that can maybe you think that would work because I was just like yeah I just wanted to do something because I

was like yeah things just can't stay like this do you think returning to the theme of your failure that going to therapy has made you a better writer or has in any way affected your writing do you know what I was terrified that going to therapy would mean that I couldn't write anymore because I find like really bad stuff funny when horrible stuff happens to me I just laugh because I'm like oh god and that's why I tried to write humor because my nan always said if you don't laugh you'll cry so I've had it in me to be like well like crying isn't really going to change anything like it's good to cry but it's also just like you have to do something or just have to laugh about it and so yeah I was really scared I remember meeting my editor after I'd sent her the first

new 10,000 words of people person and I was like can you tell me if it's shit because I'm not traumatized anymore and she was like not just that's really bad we're thinking about things and I was like all right okay cool because I know who I am more I can definitely write with more purpose in that way and just like really connect with what's going on like Queenie was like I was 25 and so like the confidence you have at 25 and also just being like I'm going to use my voice like that was how I was when I was that age and now I think it was also age too like it's like I'm more considered and I think more about every single thing that I'm saying whereas I see passages of Queenie and I'm like, oh my God,

because obviously I'm adapting it. I've never read Queenie back since I wrote it, of course. And so like, if I have to go back to the book to like look at something for reference, I'm always like, just get through as quickly as possible because some of the sex scenes are absolutely wild. And I would just never write that again. I would never write that at this age

but it's also just like I can take time now which is good and I remember back then everything was like very immediate and everything was like get it on the page but now I'm like no no no just sit with yourself and also just as I said the understanding of being like if you can't write today you can't write today and just like therapy also helped me understand that like I'm not a machine and one thing that my therapist actually really helped me understand which I hadn't really put two and two together on was that when I'm writing a nice scene I feel good and when I'm writing a sad scene I feel absolutely terrible because I'm sad because I'm living with all those characters and what they're feeling and she was like did you never make the distinction that like

when you write that you're in that and I was like oh my god and so it's just also making sure that when I write I take care of myself when I'm writing those scenes that are hard or particularly painful I've got to be like this is having an effect on you as a writer. You're not just like at your desk being like, okay, cool. So what's gonna happen next? You're like, fuck, this is fucking horrible. And I'm feeling it with all of them. It's like you're being mother again, isn't it? And absorbing the emotion of your fictional family. Yeah. Before we move on to your second failure failure I just want to thank you again for talking about that and also to mention your friend I believe he was called Dan yes who you said had cancer and who sadly died and I just wanted to mention his name and to thank you for talking about it

because I can only imagine how painful it is. Thanks I'm still in touch with his parents which is nice and it's really nice to hold on to that and you know I always ask them if it's okay for me to talk about him or to and they're always really happy for me to do that because they know how important he was to me still is to me but yeah no you're welcome it's part of life but you know it's hard it is your second failure is not having boundaries with people sooner and I was so happy when I saw this because I can't tell you how much I relate just tell us about boundaries and how to do them do you know I actually got hold on my co-star today the alert was remember your boundaries and I was like oh I I'm trying um yeah but I find boundaries very hard because my existence feels like it's like how do you look after everyone how do you

care about everyone put yourself second and that is really really tough because I just very naturally put myself second and any situation that I'm in I'm always like is this person happy are they comfortable I also pick up on people's emotions and this whole like empath thing is like it can be really real I can sit with someone and be like something's happened you can talk about it now you can talk about it later but like we need to sit and figure this out and even when someone messages me I'm like what's going on you know I think when you have that it just means that you just end up giving all of yourself to other people and then having nothing back or just not having anything for yourself and so boundaries are I'm still getting there but just like understanding what a boundary is and also that

like you have to put them in place because they're helpful to both of you to you and the other person is very real yeah well my best friend who's a therapist always explains it in this way which is that if you have a boundary in place it's actually a really loving act because when you feel able to say no it means that your yes carries extra weight and meaning because when you say yes you can fully lean into that commitment and the person knows that because you've set that boundary in the first place but it it still is really hard to do in practice even knowing that so what are some boundaries candice that you've been able to put in place for yourself over the last few years because i imagine the demands on your time have gone absolutely crazy yeah the first thing I did which was very helpful which I learned from Nikesh Shukla who's a friend of mine

another author he had this amazing out of office that is like if you don't need to talk to me here are the things that you can take from this email so it's like if you need to talk about this email this person and so I was like can I use that and I've got this out of office that is like if this is not urgent then here are all the other people that you can talk to about this and that has helped me so much because it means like if I'm in writing mode which I always am I can't always just like reply to like hi here is my headshot talk to this person no I can't do that it's like because I hate ignoring people and that's the hardest thing I think for me the hardest boundary that I have to get across is like if you don't reply to someone immediately and with care they're going to think that you hate them and

that is one of my biggest things and so I'm always trying to get to people as quickly as possible to be like yeah okay here you go yeah you can have that yeah I've seen this yeah that's really funny uh-huh thanks for that like yeah no I have heard that and so that most of my life is just being like yeah no yeah yeah I've seen it yeah are you okay yeah you're not okay do you want me to come around and so that out of office was the first step of being like you can have everything you need but I don't have to give it to you and that was like the best thing and then like so good it's just really helpful because I'm like if this urgent request comes through it's like you know who to talk to because I'm not there okay I'm not there and so like when it comes to friends it's a very

different thing because I literally am obsessed with all my friends I love them so much so it's like I do really want to give you everything give you the world but also just being like but you don't have to do that right now you can just like take a minute and that's important to me because like I talk to so many people in the day I just have some people that I want to chat to or like send stuff to but actually I just have to now it's about me being like just breathe first because like you can't do what you need to do because like you're trying to juggle all of these things look after all of these people and that has been an amazing thing that is great because I struggled so much when Queenie was out because I just couldn't talk

to anyone because my brain just wasn't there I felt like I was going all the time I was thinking about something different all the time I was on a train as my publicist I was thinking about something different all the time. I was on a train, I was my publicist, I was signing books. And that was amazing. The whole thing I loved. It was very hard and very taxing for someone who is not an introvert, but also isn't an extrovert. But it just meant that I just had to abandon anyone that was talking to me in my phone because I was like, I can't give you what you need.

And so now I found a balance of being like, what is the boundary of what you can give people and also just like you know if people are messaging me being that I'm having such a bad day being like I also having a bad day I'll come back to you when I'm not having a bad day and that's been really important yeah I think that's so important to hear what did you discover when you had that time of not answering the people in your phone did you discover that actually your real friends were completely understanding of it because I've been through patches like that and it's been so reassuring to realize that the people who matter get it and the people who don't get it

don't matter yeah I've managed to maintain most of my friendships which is really important to me as well because I have such a thing about keeping people that I care about very close all the time. But also that's just because my best friend died. Right. So like I'm always going to be like loss feels like grief every single time. So I'm always like just keep everyone who is your best friend or who is your friend near you, because the idea of losing a friend just has a similar effect when I lost my friend. Because the idea of losing a friend just has a similar effect when I lost my friend. And I also lost another friend after that. So I'm always kind of like straddling that grief space. I had a lot of good friends who stayed because they understood.

I have a lot of friends who understood. And I'm very lucky in that I do attract very good people. So all of my, I guess you get what you give out, right? So like all the people who were close to me are just good people and they just get it and they wouldn't be close to me if they didn't. I have lost some friends. The most of the friends I have lost are straight men because they don't really understand. I had one friend that I had to,

after trying to put a boundary in place for a long time, be like, please stop saying this thing that you're saying to me because I find it hurtful and painful. It wasn directed at me but he just stopped speaking to me because he was like that boundary I don't like it and if I can't offload on you all the time then I don't want to be your friend and I was like that's fine wow and what about boundaries in in romantic relationships have you historically struggled with them? Historically, I don't really have romantic relationships because I just don't like them. I don't, how do I, I'm trying to, I'm just not really, it's really tough. And I've been working with my therapist for a long time. Like, I'm like,

oh, like, what is it? And she was like, Candice, we've been working for two years. She was like, I just think you don't want to be in a relationship. And I was I feel like that as well I'm just not really into them in that way I figured it out like I'm really into connection but I'm just not really into labels because I think labels just change stuff so if I have a connection with you that is amazing and that is great but I don't think we need to like I've never said to someone what are we I will never ever ask that question of anyone because I'm not interested in having that conversation ever. Maybe that will change if I meet someone who is incredible. I'm like, oh, actually, but actually as it stands, I'm like, no.

So I don't have to have boundaries around relationships because they don't exist because I am not keen. So that's so interesting because it makes such sense of the plot of people person in the the relationships that you're examining in that book don't have an easy label but they are all really important relationships in their own way yeah yeah and I think that all relationships are really important and they are like effectively relationships in the sense that they are but when you have to think about what society would call it and that sounds really annoying but you know what I mean because so much of it is like it's basically that is what society is telling you the thing has to be and it's like but if that doesn't fit it doesn't fit and there is this idea of like a half sibling or

a step sibling or but if you're my sibling or just my sibling I have so many half siblings I have like a lot of step siblings and if I refer to them I would never refer to them as my half or my step anything that's my sibling I don't know do you know what I mean so it's like yeah the same way that like my friends friends children are my nieces like that's just how it works like I just think like you just find what you fall into but the idea of having to give it a strict term who is policing that you know so I'm just like I'm not really into it what does your mum think of your career what does my mum think of my career she's proud in her way she's proud she hasn't read Queenie

she hasn't read Empress and I she won't read people person she knows what I do she tells everyone what I do but she doesn't really engage knows what I do she tells everyone what I do but she doesn't really engage in what I do but she'll be like oh are you working make sure you look after yourself do you need anything but I think it's good for me that she and the rest of them just kind of the rest of my family that I have relationships with or that I chat to that they are just like that's her job like as I've said before I love what I do it's so important to me and I really live for it and I really put everything into it and I care about it so much but it's also a part of my life it can't be my whole life like if I go to my nan's

house she's like yes can you bring milk and potatoes can you pick up the hoover when you get here she's not interested in being like oh and so I saw you in the newspaper she doesn't care do you know what I mean and that's important to me because it's like my mum and everyone else are just like yeah that's what can does and that's nice I also think there's a liberation with that as well that you're completely free to write what you need to write without worrying how it might be received so I completely get why that's offers a kind of creative space yeah yeah for sure and also it kind of helps know that they're not going to read it because it's like I can say what I want and I would never I would never talk about them I would never write about anyone in my family or anything

that you know because that would be a thing but also it just means that like just really think talk about things like sex but my nan actually is quite into like talking about sex and stuff so it's like she's not the problem but my mum is a bit like coy about it so it's like okay I can you know what I mean yeah boundaries boundaries boundaries your third failure there's a kind of change in tone here which is not getting to see the full Amy Winehouse set at a music festival in 2007 tell us the story I went to Benicassim which was in Spain with some people from school and we were young we were like 17 18 and I knew that Amy Winehouse was going to be there I just knew because I loved and love Amy Winehouse so much she's still so important to me I remember being

like we have to go and see that but just the people I was you know when people are like away from home and they're like we can just drink everything we can just like take loads of drugs I never took drugs I've never taken drugs I just like to say because if my nan does hear this just want her to know but like everyone was doing that and also like I was always quite sensible I've always been like okay but what are we going to do where are we going to go like let's line this up like I'm not necessarily when it comes to like things I want to see and do I'm not like let's just yeah okay call them up for that I'm falling into it I'm like here's the plan and whenever I go on holiday with any of my friends I'm always like these are the things that I would like us to do and I don't care when we get there but this is

what we're doing and so like with Bena Kasim I was like yes I'm gonna see Amy Winehouse that's amazing and then there was like a rumor that she actually wasn't performing so we were like oh okay fine and then like we just went and like did nothing and just like walked around and then someone was like wait who is that playing and someone was like oh it's Amy Winehouse and I have never moved so fast in my life a group of us ends up like at the corner like in the back like trying to like hear the rest of it and I managed to like see her on stage and catch like a bit of her performance but I will always be sad that like I listened to the rumor that she wasn't actually performing that really cut me because like when she was around I just didn't go to because I just thought I always would.

Because I just thought she'd always be there. And then I realized I was so young when she passed away. She was 27. And when I was younger, I was like in my early 20s when she passed away. And I remember being like, wow. And now I'm 32. I'm like 27 is so young. And just realizing that like my young head was like, oh, I have years to see her.

I have years to see her I've years to see her perform and so like when I look back on it now I'm like that is the person that I wish I'd got to see properly because she was just Amy. I think there's such a profound lesson there about doing things right then and there especially when it's someone who is such a creative, soulful inspiration. Why do you think you connected with Amy's music so much? Or maybe it wasn't just her music, maybe it was her as well. I love her music. I listen to music all the time. But I think her as a person, if you watch any of her interviews, she's just like, yeah, I'm just here. She was around at the time, like Adele was around, Lily Allen was around.

And I remember there was like an award ceremony when they were like, aren't you going to win big? And she was like, nah, Lily's just going to win it all. I just think more than anything, she understood so completely the space that she was in. And I think that always means a lot to me when someone is like, I'm just aware of like the machine and how it works. And even Nash like at the time all of these artists who were kind of like forced to sit in these roles that their labels had told them they should sit in but she just had no interest in that at all and that was really really really important to me so as a person I was always like she just says what she needs to say that whole thing I've been

like oh she's so real but I actually do think she was one of the realest artists that we will ever see and actually we did see and it's really sad how obviously it's disgusting how the press treated her because she didn't pretend that she was someone I shouldn't pretend that she wasn't struggling she didn't pretend that she wasn't suffering with addiction issues she didn't pretend that she wasn't having a horrible or a painful relationship and obviously that was her downfall but I will always remember something that she said that I've always tried to take on when someone interviewed her and they were like you know what your aspirations like what you want to do with this album or like how do you feel about everything and they were comparing her to other artists and she was like yeah look I'm

just determined on the next level like I just want to do what I'm going to do like and I have taken that and I've always just had that in my head. And I'm not really good at remembering quotes of people. But I will always remember that that's what she said. Because I think determination is always a thing. Especially when you just don't fit into the mold that everyone else is trying to make you fit into. It's determination. It's like, I'm going to do it anyway.

And that is why I will always love her. Yeah, her music. And I watch the Amy documentary so often maybe like every few months just because I love watching her write music and I love watching her poetry turn into lyrics and I love how she feels music there's a bit of her recording with Mark Ronson and she's singing I think it's back to black and there's like a fade out and she stopped singing she's like god that was quite sad wasn't it I think she used to feel so deeply what she was singing and her lyrics showed us that.

And she was fun and she was playful and she was silly. And also she could have quite a harsh tongue, but also she really cared about what she was saying. I love that documentary too, the Asif Kapadia one. And I remember, oh my, it's so good. I remember going to see it in the cinema and it was one of the first, I think, probably the first feature length documentary I'd seen, which didn't have a narrator.

Yeah. He manages to make this really creative collage and it's become now almost standard. But it was the first time I'd seen that. And I thought that was such a beautiful act for a woman who had had her voice appropriated by so many people or ignored it was just such a beautiful act of salvation really yeah no completely I remember the first time I saw it I went to Clapham is it a picture house Clapham picture house near Clapham conversation and I went by myself because I do a lot of stuff by myself because as you know I don't want to be in a relationship so I just like to just like to it's a room I love going cinema by myself it's the best thing it's so underrated you don't have to talk to anyone about afterwards

you just sit with yourself but I just had to sit there while the credits rolled just for like 20 minutes just weeping and just tried to like compose myself before I left because I honestly couldn't I just was like you can't walk in a straight line while you're crying this much because I thought as you say someone whose voice was taken over from her but also just seeing I just think so much of it it's just like it could have been avoided and just knowing the loss and also just having seen it when I was older and just being like 27 was nothing you know 27 is you haven't lived that documentary is yeah one of the best I've ever seen so there's going to be a step change here because I'm going to ask you a question and there's just no link to it well I suppose there is a link because the tv drama that you are writing for

BBC I believe is set in the music industry am I right yes can you okay can you tell us anything about it I can I am allowed to talk about it now which is great it's called champion it's BBC but also Netflix globally which is amazing that's incredible that's incredible. It's really good, isn't it? It's very good. I remember when we had to like pitch it to them and I was like, sat and just been like, this isn't going to happen. This isn't going to happen. I was driving and got a call from one of the like head producers and he was like, right, they're on board. And I was like, I want to crash the car because it's huge, but it's about effectively a musical family in some way they're the champion family they live in South London obviously and it's Bosco Champion

who is this rap star and he has been in prison for two years and we find out why as the series goes on and his long-suffering younger sister Vita has basically been his PA before he went in and has been managing everything for him afterwards and their dad Beres used to be a sound man in Jamaica and he came over and he was like I'm going to make a name for myself a name for this family and their mum Aria she was an aspiring musician and she had to give up her career when she got pregnant with Bosco back in the day and it's about those family ties and also what happens when, I guess, the son becomes a golden boy

and everyone else is effectively overlooked. And the journey is Bosco versus Vita when Vita steps into herself and she's like, actually, I have a voice too, Bosco. So it is really fun to write. And also we're creating original music for it we're in the process now of like actually slotting everything into place and like talking to all of these and also I have been able to speak to all of these amazing songwriters and producers and artists

that are absolutely legendary the casting is incredible I can't say who it is I can't say who's doing anything but it's just like I'm just every day I'm like I can't believe that I get to do this it's absolutely mad I was thinking today like about like how it ends and just being like that's going to be fucking huge like I just I don't know so I'm like I'm so like shocked by it all still like even though I'm writing it and working on it all the time but it's just an amazing thing and like it's very different working in TV because in TV you just have like a team around you all the time and also being a showrunner means you're just kind of figuring out everything for everyone and just I wake up to like 20 emails and messages being like can you approve that what do you think of that can you come back to that you haven't replied to that can you have a look

at this grid and I'm like I am not this person ask me a question I'll say yes or no but then I say that but then also I have a very strong opinion so so are you running a writer's room as a showrunner as well yes so we ran a writer's room and that was in lockdown and it was on zoom it was four weeks and it was 12 till 6 every day and it was me and four other writers and maybe like okay so what do you think and trying to like scan everyone's face and be like, you don't look happy about that. What does that mean? What does that face mean? And that was really, really fun.

It was amazing. And we get to the next one in person, which is great if we do that. The Zoom writers room is a very unique thing and I don't wish to do it again. But no, that's super draining. My goodness. It sounds so good. Thank you. I can't wait.

It's just going to be like, there's just loads of stuff that's happening and it's like wow okay I think the thing was when we first started it I remember being told by the production company this just has to be as big as possible just like think big and I was like oh I can think big so that was that was fine I can money. I can spend production money. Don't worry. And so that will be on our screens later this year? I think early next year because we start filming in June or July. Okay.

I can't wait to hear more about it. Champion. You are a champion, Candice Cartier-Williams. I am in awe of everything you've achieved and everything that you are. And I'm so, so happy that you came on How To Fail. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. If you enjoyed this episode of How To Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you

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