How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S13, Ep1 How To Fail: Brené Brown

Episode Date: January 12, 2022

We’re back for a brand new season and PINCH ME BECAUSE I TRULY CAN’T BELIEVE I’M WRITING THIS but…Our first guest of 2022 is…The one, the only…Brené Brown.I’m a huge admirer of Brené��s work, much of which laid the groundwork for the formation of this podcast. She has spent the past two decades researching and changing the global conversation around courage, shame, empathy and vulnerability. She is a professor at the University of Houston, the the author of five number one New York Times bestsellers, the host of the weekly podcast Unlocking Us, which averages one million listens per episode and her 2010 TED talk, ‘The Power of Vulnerability’ is one of the most-watched of all time. Her latest book, Atlas of the Heart, takes the reader on a journey through 87 emotions and experiences that define what it means to be human.Brené joins me to talk about the failure of her first book, failure to prize consistency over intensity and her multiple failed hobbies ‘where buying the supplies was more fun than the actual hobby.’ I loved this conversation so much because of the truth bombs it contains (I was feverishly writing notes so I would’t forget any of what she said) but also because Brené speaks with such honesty, clarity and humour about what it is to be human and how to make sense of the world.Even if this weren’t actually my podcast, I’d tell you this episode is a must-listen.--Buy Atlas of the Heart here: shorturl.at/bgEZ6Visit Brené's website here: https://brenebrown.com/Listen to Brené's podcasts here: https://brenebrown.com/podcasts/Watch Brené's TED talk here: https://www.ted.com/speakers/brene_brown---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Brene Brown @brenebrown Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Since I launched How to Fail in July 2018, this podcast has been full of pinch me moments. But for all the beautiful experiences I've been lucky enough to enjoy, this moment right now is up there with the best. Because my guest today is the one, the only, the I can't believe I'm saying this, Brene Brown. Brown has been deeply influential on my understanding of life and on the work I put out into the world. In fact, her research is so groundbreaking that the right words don't yet exist accurately to describe it. As Brown puts it on her website, the official line is that she is a professor at the University of Houston

who has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy. decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. What her website doesn't state is that she has been responsible for changing the global conversation around these issues. The chances are that even if you've never heard of Brene Brown, which is pretty unlikely, let's be honest, you will have benefited from her thinking. She is the author of five number one New York Times bestsellers, the host of the weekly podcast, Unlocking Us, which averages 1 million listens per episode. And her 2010 TED talk, The Power of Vulnerability, has become one of the most watched of all time. It explored how people with self-value embraced vulnerability rather than trying to avoid it.

Brian's latest book, Atlas of the Heart, takes the reader on a journey through 87 emotions and experiences that define what it means to be human. The book shows us that naming an experience gives us the power of understanding, meaning, and choice. It's being made into an HBO Max unscripted series. But alongside all these myriad achievements, Brown has also coined one of the greatest quotes ever on failure. As she puts it, there is no innovation and creativity without failure, period. Brené Brown, it is my honor to welcome you to How to Fail. Oh my God, I'm so excited to be here. I can't wait for this conversation. I'm really looking forward to it. Thank you for having me on. I am shivering with excitement and not a few nerves because you are just such an icon in this

entire field. And I know that at the very, very beginning, a lot of your outlook was shaped by a Theodore Roosevelt quote that talks about failure and daring greatly. And I'm going to paraphrase it here, but he said, it is not the critic who counts. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly. Now that has massively informed your work and my outlook. How long did it take you, do you think, to embrace failure? Wow, that's a really good question. I don't know the moment. I know that I started embracing failure when I really understood through lived experience that there was no success without failure. And so once I learned that these two constructs travel together, then I embraced both. In the early days of my career, I was petrified of failure

and just very success focused versus learning focused. And so if you ever want to invite failure into your life, like just put a doormat out and, you know, put a hot cup of coffee on the counter for failure, just focus on success instead of learning. And you can be sure that failure is going to come a knocking. So I think in the beginning, I did that a lot. I think once I survived a couple of failures, and understood that learning from those failures was actually the path to success, then I became more embracing of it 10 years ago, maybe. Okay, quite recently, I think that's actually such a reassuring thing for people to hear. Because I hear from so many listeners who are hamstrung

by a fear of failure, which means they don't take the risk in the first place. And I know that in Atlas of the Heart, you write so brilliantly about perfectionism, killing curiosity. Can you tell us a bit about that? Perfectionism is a really interesting experience and it's an interesting problem because I believe that it's very much a process addiction. And so when we think as researchers about perfectionism, the opposite of perfectionism kind of in the research literature is healthy striving or striving for excellence. And what you'll find if you look at the data is that people that really are healthy strivers, they're striving for excellence, their biggest barrier is perfectionism. Perfectionism isn't what leads you to success,

it's the barrier. The thing about perfectionism is it's a thought process and a behavioral process that says, if I look perfect or work perfect or do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize shame, failure, judgment, and blame. And so what perfection really is, is a defense mechanism. I call it the 20 ton shield. And we carry it around with us. And we think being perfect is going to prevent us from failing or feeling scrutinized or hurt. But what it actually does is it keeps us from being seen. And healthy striving is internally focused, striving for excellence. This is what I want to achieve. Perfectionism really comes down to one question, what will people think? And you've already lost when that's your driving question,

because there's no way to control perception or manage what people think. You talk so fluently about all of these concepts and also about the concept of belonging as opposed to fitting in. And it blew my mind when I read this section in Atlas of the Heart, the idea that belonging is being accepted as you authentically are. Fitting in is having to change yourself to fit in with a group of other people. Do you think that there is any way to be your truest, most authentic self if you haven't failed? Or does failure help us strip back those pretenses? Well, first of all, I've never met anyone who hasn't failed. So I would dig into that concept first because maybe someone who hasn't had a public failure,

but we've all failed. Anyone who set a New Year's resolution has failed. Anyone who has had a breakup has failed. Anyone that's ever had a work project go south or, you know, we, so we all know failure. I think what fuels compassion and fuels empathy is the full embrace of human imperfection. The point you make, it's really interesting, and it's a subtle nuanced point that you're making. The research on belonging, it's very painful because love and belonging are irreducible needs for all people. In the absence of them, there's always suffering. And our yearning, our DNA yearning for belonging as a social species is so strong that we will often substitute fitting in for belonging. The problem is, and I'm going to see if I can tie these kind of nuanced tent poles that you're putting out. I'll see if I can tie them together in a way that makes sense because they are very nuanced

relationships in the research. Let's say I'm new to London and I'm lonely and I don't have a friend group and you invite me to a book club. And I'm like, okay, I'm so excited. I'm going to go to Elizabeth's book club. We're reading this new mystery. It's great. You know, I know Elizabeth and her friends are kind of like this, and I know they kind of dress like this, and I think their politics are this. So I am going to do whatever it takes to fit in in this book club. So I get to book club.

I kind of dress like y'all. I keep the political conversation in tune with where I think y'all are. And I hated the political conversation in tune with where I think y'all are. And I hated the book. But as soon as I hear everyone loves the book, I'm like, yes, it was so good. I was riveted to the last moment. You know, I'm trying to fit in. I'm changing who I am because of a desperate need for connection. And I don't ever really hear from you again.

I don't get invited to the next book club. And things just kind of fade out as they do, right? The result of that experience 99 times out of a hundred is going to be shame. I am not good enough. Something's wrong with me. I am not worthy of connection or friendship. Something's wrong. Same scenario, but as I'm getting dressed for book club and I'm going over to your apartment, I tell myself one thing, you know what, Brene, just be yourself, wear what you like, you know, share your opinion, honestly. So I get there and I see a standout a little bit maybe. And someone

says it was the best mystery I've ever read. What do you think Brene? And I'm like, Oh my God, I thought the ending was so terrible. I just, it was hard to get through. And I didn't love the ending. To be honest, I get home. I don't hear from you. I don't get invited back. I might feel disappointment. I might feel a little sadness, but I don't feel shame because my goal was not to fit in at the cost of betraying myself. My goal was to be myself. And so when I get home, whether I hear back from you or not, I've done what I set out to do. And I'll tell you the Faustian bargain here is in the first scenario, if I'm trying to fill my need for belonging by

fitting in, and you do call back, and I've kind of become like you and talk like you and agreed with everybody in your group, that hustle is never over. I have to keep pretending and in the process, betray myself. And any belonging that requires us to betray who we are, what we believe and what we think is counterfeit and a very short walk to shame. Amazing. And can I just state for the record that you will always be invited back to my London-based book club? Because I'm in. I'm in.

What are we reading? I'm in. You will be guest of honor. I want to ask you one final question before I get onto your failures, which is I re-watched your original TED Talk, the one you gave in 2010 at TEDxHouston. And I realized when I watched it that you were, I think, 45 when you gave it. And that was the TED Talk that launched the second phase of your career where you've become this global icon. Do you think that there was something important about being that particular age, 45? I speak as someone who's

about to turn 43, and I feel that in my 40s, I definitely know myself better and know what I stand for better. Do you think that age was important? I think it was for sure important. The whole thing was actually a little bit of a shit show, to be honest with you. They had called me and said, hey, do you want to open up TED? Yeah, that sounds so fun. Thank you so much for inviting me. I was like, oh my God, TED Talk and TEDx Houston at the University of Houston where I taught on that campus for 10 years. I got my PhD there. Great. We had flown back from Maui the night before. And it's like an eight or 10 hour trek from Houston. And it was one of those things where I had gone for work. It was a group of Silicon Valley CEOs. And I was doing work with them around, ironically, failure and vulnerability. And they said, you know, we can pay you or you can

just bring your family and we'll just pay for your room and we'll host you here in Maui for a week. And of course, I'm like, free vacation. Yes. And so we get back at 10 o'clock that night where our kids are sound asleep. We're carrying them in the house. I have this talk the next morning. I didn't even know it was going to be filmed. So on the flight, I look at Steve and I said, you know what? I'm going to do something so crazy tomorrow at this TED Talk. And he's like, what are you going to do? I said, I'm going to be super vulnerable while I'm talking about vulnerability. I'm going to talk about having a breakdown in my 40s. And I'm going to talk about getting a therapist and how much that bullshit is hard. And he's like, Jesus, that's the worst idea I've ever heard. Because up until that point, and this is the difference between your 30s and

40s, I think, in your 30s, it's a full on hustle. It's acquisition, accomplishment, you know, look at me, I don't suck. It's hightailing it as fast as you can from failure. look at me. I don't suck. It's hightailing it as fast as you can from failure. It is the proving decade. You're so freaking tired in your forties, you know, that you're just like, I can't do it anymore. And so, yeah, it's just, I would keep trying to outrun vulnerability at this point, but you know, my hip hurts and I can't do it. So I got on stage. Let me tell you, this is true. I'll tell this is a true story. I woke up that morning to go to TED.

And they have a real kind of rigorous audience expectation that if you're going to be there, you're going to be there for the day, listening to other speakers, you're part of the community. And I had to negotiate this with them because it was my daughter's 10th birthday. And so I was like, look, I'm hosting a slip and slide front yard birthday party. And so I got to go as soon as I give my talk, because I got to host my daughter's birthday party. We're doing all this kind of fun stuff. So I woke up that morning and literally picked up a shirt off the floor, because all my nice stuff was packed. I couldn't find my right shoes. I just grabbed some sandals. My makeup was still packed. So I just kind of just

put on some lipstick and some under eye concealer and left. I had no idea that this was going to be filmed and watched by 60 million people. No spanks, nothing. And so I went, I was super vulnerable. I talked about all the things that I told Steve I was going to talk about. And I thought it was an unmitigated clusterfuck. I was like, oh, my God. I hope no one sees this because I will lose my career as an academic. I mean, granted, University of Houston is not like Oxford or Cambridge, but it's like still we have a reputation to protect. Like we're not allowed to be accessible or human. We're supposed to be like the variable that shame mostly predicts, you know?

And so, oh, I was so upset. And so by all accounts for me, that felt like a failure. Wow. Like a giant. Let me tell you, just honestly, I cried for a week. And then when I got a call from Chris Anderson, who runs TED, and this is a very British approach to negotiation. He said, listen, Brene, we loved it. Everybody in the office loves it. We're going to put it on the big TED site. And I said, oh my God, I'm flattered. But no,

I don't think so. And he said, probably December 23rd or 24th. Thank you. I was like, the only thing that was missing was like a cuppa. Like, it was like, that was it. And so when that went up, I literally could not get out of bed. I was like, this is the biggest failure of my career to date. And then in the immortal words of my husband, no one's going to watch that. What do you think they're going to Google Brene Brown vulnerability? I love that line. Yeah. So failure is in the eye of the vulnerable, I guess. I also love that story because when you were lying in bed, that's when

you started looking at the comments and then to recover from the toxicity of online commentary, you started watching Downton Abbey, eating peanut butter. And it was Downton Abbey when you started Googling it that led you to Teddy Roosevelt and that quote so it's all meant to be it was totally meant to be exactly thank you so much for sharing that and describing that as how it seemed a failure at the time because I do think that's so true on such a broad scale that so many things that we perceive of as being, in your words, a clusterfuck, can actually in the end turn out to have such nuggets of meaning and understanding for us if we just give it enough time to evolve. I'll tell you what that failure taught me that changed the course of my life and my career was if I'm not a little bit nauseous and a little bit scared about what I'm doing. And if I'm not being real,

then my work becomes irrelevant. As Oprah says, a teachable moment. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second.

Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry.

The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Let's come on to your first official failure, which predates what you've been describing. And it's the failure of your first book. Tell us about that. So I'm finishing up my doctoral work and I am starting to do a ton

of research around shame because I just kind of fell into that. Another failure, actually, because I was meant to do a dissertation on one thing, I ended up doing my dissertation on something else that introduced me to the concept of shame, didn't introduce me to the concept of shame. We were old friends, but introduced me academically to shame. And I thought, I'm going to write a book about women and shame. And I worked on it and worked on it, worked on it for a couple of years and did all this interviewing. So proud of it. They said, you know, you can't publish a book without an agent. So I said, let me try to get an agent. And I was just finding agents by Googling agent or looking in the acknowledgements in people's books, not in nonfiction books. I'd like to thank my agent,

so-and-so, but no one would take my call. No one returned any of my emails, nothing. So there was a writing conference. This is such a tough story for me still. There was a writing conference at a hotel in Austin. And if you paid $150, everyone that wants to be a writer can go. If you paid an extra $50, you could meet with an agent. You could have an audience with a real live New York City agent for 10 minutes. So I paid the extra $50, which was not nothing back then because I was just finishing school. My husband was coming out of medical residency. And so we put together the $50 and I met with an agent.

So this is funny. The name of my first book on shame and women was called Hairy Toes and Sexy Rice. Okay. Now you're going to have to explain that. Well, the hairy toes was that when I first got a little tuft of hair on my big toe, I had never seen back then. It was like Young Miss Magazine and 17 magazine, all the things you read in like middle school and high school. And I had never seen a model that had any hair on her

toes. And I panicked and I did not have a family that talked about body stuff or normalized anything like that. I would never have asked my parents. So I just shaved my toes, but I thought something's wrong. And so I looked up in actually a library, like encyclopedia in my high school, excessive hair, puberty girls, and diagnosed myself with a chromosome disorder, you chromosome disorder that came along with early death, violent tendencies. So I was just waiting for this to happen. I had so much shame around this and no one to talk to. So if you're a parent and you're listening, the best way to avoid having a child that's riddled with shame is normalize, normalize, normalize. So that was the hairy toe story. The sexy rice story was

fast forward. I'm in my mid thirties. I have my first child and I come home from work one day. I'm a kind of young professor before I even get five feet in the house. My bra is off. My hair is in a messy bun. I'm trying to find my sweats. I'm trying to figure out what we're going to order for dinner. The baby's crying. I've got spit up in my hair. And I turn on the TV and there's this rice commercial. It's a woman in a teddy, like a silk teddy cooking rice and then feeding it to her husband as he slides down the refrigerator. The implication is that her rice is so good, they're going to have sex. And I'm like, I'm Jabba the Hutting in my sweatsuit. I've got crap all over me. And I just had a real shame attack. Like, I don't have a teddy. I don't like rice. I'm not going to be

jack shit to anybody. They're sliding down the refrigerator. My refrigerator is full of magnets and kid pictures. None of this works. And so it was a book that just was very honest about the moments where we feel shame and what that means. It embraced not the deprecating laughter, self-deprecation laughter, or the defense mechanism laughter, but it embraced the humor that we all think those moments are just us. But introduce me to someone who hasn't seen an idealized commercial and had a wince of shame, then I'll meet a liar. We've all been there. So I have my audience with this agent, and he's as New York agent as you get. He reminded me of Matt Damon, tortoiseshell glasses that are like big chunky frames, sweater, skinny jeans

before skinny jeans were popular, long kind of square toed shoes. Got it. Maybe a scarf. Like a scarf. Yeah. A total scarf. Yeah. And so I was like, oh my God, he's fancy. He's from New York City. I have my book proposal and he looks through it and he's like, great topic. Hate the title. There's nothing funny about shame. You should never use humor when you talk about shame.

Nietzsche once said this. And, you know, he quotes Nietzsche on shame which I'm sure was not funny I don't remember what it was but I'm sure it doesn't it's not one funny and kind of berates my whole approach but says you're the first person I'm giving a name and number to call this person she may be willing to agent your book. And so I called that person not interested at all. And I'm like, fuck, what do I do? So I go against every rule in academic history. I borrow money from my parents and I self-publish the book. It's so funny because I'll take you to this one moment where I'm in the elevator and one of my colleagues at the university has a copy and said, I read your book. It's stunning, was the word he used.

I'm requiring it in my class this semester. And I said, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And he said, who is 3C Press? And that was me, of course. And I said, oh, it's self-published. And he said, oh, well, I won't be adding that. I don't do vanity publishing in my classroom. Oh, he actually said that out loud? Yeah, out loud. Wow. He'll come back in the story, asshole, in a little bit.

Please hold. So I self-published the book. I sell it out. I can't even keep it in stock. And I'm selling it out of my car. And I'm selling it when I do events for therapists and academics in the area. And so I end up meeting Harriet Lerner at a cocktail party one night in Houston. Very esteemed writer, you know, comes out of Menninger, has written probably 10 bestsellers,

The Dance of Anger, The Dance of Connection, The Mother Dance. And so she introduced me to an agent. I get a book deal with Penguin. It's really exciting and I carried so much shame about that self-publishing literally there was a moment I don't confess this very often but there was a moment at a speaking event when someone asked who do I make the check to and I picked up the book like I was reading the cover the spine and said it looks like you should make it to 3c press like anything I could do to separate myself from this after that comment by my colleague what was funny is when I got the deal with penguin the faculty found out and I walked into a faculty

meeting and people were like oh well congratulations on your book deal and I said thanks the same guy said oh my god you're so cool you're like the guys who did the film El Mariachi you're like an indie like self-published going you know it's so cool I was like fuck you you know just I was like you have no idea what I did to myself with your words you didn't do them to me but I took them and I fashioned them into a weapon and really held that weapon to my own throat for a long time. So the Penguin Random House book is exciting. I've got my official New York editor and all I do while it's in production is practice my interview with the Today Show,

practice my interview with the New Yorker, practice my interview with the New York Times. And the book comes out and I've decided to distance myself so much from the surly work of promoting or marketing or I'm not even going to get excited about it. I'm going to follow my academic training and stay removed and bitter. And it failed. How did you categorize failure? I mean, how did you quantify it? When you say it failed, did it just not sell? No, I wouldn't do anything that could even be perceived as supporting it out of now it's a proper book and I'm just going to be distinguished and removed from the vulgarness of selling it. And so I got a call from, oh, I remember what I was wearing. I remember where I was standing. I remember what it smelled like in my kitchen. I got a call from

not even my editor, but from the publisher himself. And he said, listen, would you like to buy some books for anyone? And I said, oh yeah, I'll buy some books for my mom. And this is after he'd been out a couple of months and I'll buy some extra books for these people. He said, no, like we have thousands of them. Would you like to buy a big quantity of them? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he said, he said, it's being remaindered. And I said, I don't know what that means. And he goes, it's going into bargain bins and then it's going to be pulped. I can't bear this. I also can't help but notice that the three people who have had responses to your book that you have weaponized against yourself and felt immense shame over are all men.

I mean, all white dudes, let's just call it what it is. Yeah, they're all white dudes for sure. And problematic with everything that entails. And so I remember holding the phone and kind of sliding down the kitchen cabinet onto the floor and just crying. I could not believe that it had failed. I couldn't even keep it in print when it was self-published, but it was such a great lesson and a lesson that I have to really talk deeply and firmly to women about more than men, which is if you can't be excited, if you're not going to get excited about what you're putting into the world, then don't ask other people to get excited about it. If you're not going to send a letter to everyone on your email list, or you're not going to invite

friends over and say, listen, I'm trying this new thing and I really would need your support. And I'm excited about it. Like if you're not going to toot your own horn, don't join the band. Just sit back like I did and stay bitter and resentful that your work doesn't have a wider audience, but don't expect that to work. I think that was so interesting that you said that you have to talk to women specifically firmly about that because there is an ingrained sense for so many of us that that's self-aggrandizing or egotistical or taking up too much space. And it is, in my view, very gendered. It is. I think I would imagine that many men suffer from that same kind of paralyzing thing. I used to have this really strong feminist pedagogy in my classroom,

where people would develop their own, you know, I had my contractual stuff that I had to cover with the university. But then people would write kind of their own syllabi around, how are you going to get to these goals? What do you want to do? And then they would grade themselves against their own standards once I kind of approved those standards. And it was really funny because every semester at the end of the semester, the male students would be like, A plus, I gave myself an A plus, I kicked ass. And even the women who were probably the brightest of all the students in the class would be like, you know, B minus, maybe B, B minus, I think, you know, I, I could have maybe done that,

you know, and I'm like, Oh, my God, like, what is happening? Yeah. And I'm one of those people. So I know what's happening. Yeah, it doesn't serve us. And it doesn't serve the world. Because we have important ideas to share. And so what I wish I would have done what I learned from that failure is, it may take me 10 years to do the what I learned from that failure is it may take me 10 years to do the research for one book, and then it may take me another year to write it. And then when I turn it in, that's when the work starts. How can we get the book into the hands of the people that it can help?

And how can we get excited about it? How can we get the word out? And I don't do that naturally well, but if I'm going to invest 11 years researching and writing a book, then I'm going to be excited during the book tour. Yes. Let's move on to your second failure, because although I have a million questions firing out of all synapses, I also know that your time is very precious and finite. So your second failure is subscribing to the belief that intensity is more important than consistency. What experiences in your life were you attaching that phrase to? Everything from how I lead, you know, we have 30 people that work here. I'm in

my podcast studio in Houston. Everything from how I lead to strength training to I'm a competitive tennis and pickleball player, everything. So strength training is a great example. So I will start working with a trainer and she'll say, before we add weights, we're going to start with just using your body weight. Before we do pushups on the ground, we're going to start with pushups against the wall. And we're going to start squats down the wall. And I'm like, God, this feels like baby work. And so I'll grab a big weight that belongs to like my husband or someone else at the gym and I'll lift it over my head and I'll be like, I'm a badass. And then I'll be injured for three months. And in your work, is that just taking on, do you take on too much and then you need to

have two weeks in bed yes I'm like I've never talked about it before so let me see if I can they laugh at me they call my podcast the pause cast it was actually someone from the economist that who was interviewing me who was like this is the pause cast with Brene Brown, because I want to think sometimes. So let me think about how I can explain this. Can I also just say, sorry, you think, but how refreshing that is to hear, because we all need to pause and we don't do it enough. And because we live in a culture of 24 hour news cycle and knee jerk reactions and everyone having to have an opinion all the time, 24-hour news cycle and knee-jerk reactions and everyone having to have an opinion all the time, we have lost the value of actual thought. And so I admire and respect your pause and you take as long as you need, Brené. Yeah, what I'm trying to think about is there are some areas in my life

where I know that I'm going to do better in an intense, I'll use kind of like what software engineers call sprints in software development and product development. Engineers and designers and teams work in sprints. So they sprint really hard for two weeks, they get a bunch done, then they spend a week reflecting on it, fine tuning it, then they go into another sprint. There are some areas of my life where I'm going to be better sprinting. For example, I'm a binge writer. So I'm never going to be someone that can write for two hours a day or an hour a day. But there are a lot of places in my life where consistency is so much more powerful than intensity. So you got, you know, strength training is a great example of that. Even if

are working out in general, if I'm like, okay, you know what, I will lay in bed at night and think I'm going to run a marathon. And I will spend the next day in my happiest place, the best place in the world, which is ordering all the supplies I need, but not having yet run an inch. but what if I just start walking every day and I'm going to walk 20 minutes a day and maybe that'll turn into a marathon eventually, but I'm going to do something consistently every day. I think leading my team, I can have these big intense moments of thanking them for their hard work, but what's really more meaningful is consistently recognizing their accomplishments on a daily or weekly basis and saying thank you and giving some really positive feedback. On the other hand, I can be, you know, waiting to get intense corrective feedback, or I can make the time when we come out of a meeting to pull someone aside and say, hey, can we talk about what happened in the meeting just now and

be more consistent in my feedback in terms of giving it right after I observe something that I want to get curious about or that I've got questions about or that I think need to change. So to me, there are a lot of tiny failures for me in my personal and professional life that revolve around succumbing to the societal belief that if it's not big and bang and loud, it doesn't matter. I think quiet consistency wins. And where do you think that belief in intensity comes from for you personally? Is it purely societal? I think I was raised that way. You know, when both of my kids were athletes growing up, and I still have a 16 year old, so I would consider him still, and a 22 year old, so they're still growing up, but they were athletes in school.

My husband was also an athlete in school. And I remember, you know, the messaging from, especially my dad was, be number one. Second place is first place for losers. If you're not going to be number one, don't. And then I'm watching my husband as my kids are young, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, saying, you know what? The wins and losses don't matter. Develop a love for the sport. Develop a love for the feeling of mastery over success.

And I really deferred to him and parented my kids based on his kind of philosophy. And they both became very successful, competitive athletes who love the sport, as opposed to I think, me and my siblings who were intense, win or die, and all quit by the time we were 14 or 15. Right. I consider myself a very competitive person and it's not necessarily something I like about my character because when I don't do as well as I want to, I turn that competitiveness inwards and it becomes self-criticism and it becomes shame. How do you avoid, do you think, turning competitiveness inwards and against yourself? I think you have to first dispel the mythology that you owe your success to that competitiveness.

That's great. Tell me more. Yes. Yeah, I think, you know, the healthy striving, the healthy striving for excellence, the healthy competitiveness is probably a really good part of all of us. And the things that I believe that our greatest strengths and our greatest liabilities live on the same continuum. So I don't feel like we should grab those and throw them out. I feel like we should just try to work towards sliding toward the better part of that continuum. And so for me, the really great part of my competitiveness, and I am very competitive, whether I'm playing cards, board games, tennis, pickleball, I'm competitive. I love winning. But what I've noticed as I've worked on trying to move,

kind of like sliding a bar on a stereo receiver, like toward a different side, as I try to move toward what is healthy competition, what I realize around any game playing for me, like I'm a huge pickleball player, I'd rather lose and be playing than win more often and have less time on the court. And so to me, Sarah Lewis, who is in the art history department at Harvard, has a great book called The Rise. And she has a chapter in it about the difference between success and mastery. And that was a game changer for me. I'm not interested in a bunch of small wins. I'm interested in mastery, which means I've got as much to learn from the losses. I'm in it for the learning. I want to develop the craft. And so I think for me, I develop mastery,

not because of my obsessive competition, but because of my healthy competition. And the greatest threat to mastery is my unhealthy competition. Because one of them is internally focused. That's my healthy competition. And one of them is driven by what will people think. And that's the external stuff. Okay. Thank you. This is just like the best therapy session I've ever had.

For me too. What about comparison? Are you comparative with your peers? What about comparison? Are you comparative with your peers? So for me, you are highly successful, globally renowned, number one New York Times bestselling author. But do you sometimes compare yourself to someone else in a similar field and think, why have I not had that level of achievement? Yes. And here's the thing that I learned doing the research for Atlas of the Heart. First of all, it just was a mind blowing learning. And secondly, it's really changed my life because comparison is something that I really struggle with. So what I learned

from the research on comparison is I used to think that comparing myself to other people, whether it's, I tell the story in the book that I swim laps a lot. And if I accidentally end up pushing off the wall at the same time as someone else, I will race that person. Whether it is a 25-year-old triathlete, you know, six foot five dude next to me, or it's like an 80 year old woman who's got a floaty and fins, I'm racing you, you know, I'm going to kick your ass. If it's the 25 year old triathlete, I'll end up getting injured, racing this person. And if it's the 80 year old, I'm like smug and gloaty in the locker room. And this woman's like 80. She's probably thinking, Jesus, you asshole. But what I realized doing this research is now social psychologists who study comparison

will tell you that we don't choose to compare or not to compare. Comparing is reflexive. So I thought the intervention point was don't compare, don't compare. But they say it's reflexive, it's human, it's how we're wired, we're going to compare. The inflection or choice point for us is what we do with the comparison. So now what I do, I've been doing this for about three or four months now, because swimming is my joy. And I completely lose the joy when I start racing people out of nowhere. It's so stupid. So now what I do is the inflection point is I'm comparing, what do I choose to do

with that comparison? So now I literally look over at the person and underwater, so they don't think I'm crazy, say, have a good swim, friend. And I just stay in my lane. And I look at the black stripe on the bottom of the pool or on the wall when I'm close. And that's what I do now. And I'm getting ready to do a podcast with someone who's got a book coming out the same day my book comes out. And I'm going to amplify their book that day. Because have a good book launch, friend. And I'll tell you, people are so shocked. I've been doing this part around books for a long time. Elizabeth Gilbert and I had Elizabeth Gilbert, Eat, Pray, Love. I know she's my dual hero along with you. Yeah, she's amazing. She's, you know, and she and I did some book events together when we both had

books out. And a couple of them were for heavily female audiences. And invariably, women would ask, if I only have $30 to spend on a book, you're both here. Does it not worry you that you're not kind of competing for our book dollars? And we just both started laughing. And really, at the same time, Unrehurst said, buy her book. Scarcity is a function of the patriarchy. It's like, I'm not doing that. Preach. I do think that's something that I've realized about myself,

that I'm functioning under the assumption that all resources are finite. And a lot of them that I most desire are scarce. And actually, once you start thinking in terms of abundance and challenging yourself to think like that and saying, have a good swim friend, have a good book launch friend, you're right that it really alters one's perception of the world because it becomes a place of gratitude rather than I don't have. Yeah. It's been one of the biggest changes in my life. And I will have to say that it's related to another book in Atlas, because in the middle of Atlas, I go through 87 of the experiences that I think define what it means to be human, the emotions. And it's also one of the other trigger points for me where I'm like,

wow, I must be in comparison because this is not who I want to be, is schadenfreude. When someone, one of my contemporaries fails publicly or gets called out for something, and I take joy in that, I'm like, wow, what kind of shitty comparison are you in? You know, like that you would, is this who you want to be? Can you even reconcile this with your faith or your values? And I can't. Your third failure, you touched on it there with the running and the strength training, which is numerous hobbies, these are your words, where buying the supplies was more fun than the actual hobby.

So which hobbies were you thinking of that you bought a lot of stuff for and then failed actually to do? Where do you want to start? Has this been a lifelong thing? Yeah, bullet journaling. Oh my God, I'm so glad to hear that because I've never got into that at all. And I always think I should.

Yeah, but I have $5,000 worth of shit. I have like pens and journals and, you know, stickers, bullet journaling, scrapbooking, cooking. I have every cooking device ever known to womankind, every exercise equipment that becomes a great place to hang my wet clothes to dry. Yeah. All that stuff. And it's completely related to number two failure, which is the consistency and intensity thing. And I just interviewed James Clear who wrote Atomic Habit. And I just interviewed him for the Dare to Lead podcast.

And I asked him about that. And his answer, I'll share his answer because it was so helpful. He said that buying and preparing is motion, but it's not action. And there's no amount of supplies that will bring you closer to becoming a bullet journalist or journaler. There's no amount of supplies that will bring you to becoming a scrapbooker. God, photography equipment. I mean, I'm not cheap stuff either. Like this is who I'm going to be. And I think this is dawning on me as I'm saying it. So I'm pausing to think through it because I think I'm having like an IRL in real time like moment, but I think it has to do with it's easier to buy stuff and picture myself having the time to create and play and do joyful things. It's easier to do that than

it is to be consistent in managing my calendar in a way that affords me the time to do those things. So I would have to say no and disappoint some people in order to have the time I need to do what I think sounds fun. But Brene, you've taught me so much about boundaries and saying no. So is this something that you still struggle with? Yes, boundaries and saying no. saying no. So is this something that you still struggle with? Yes, boundaries and saying no. That's not a checklist item. That is a every morning, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage not to punch someone in the face, and the strength to set some boundaries. Like, yeah. One of the most enlightening things I ever heard you say, and it was on Russell Brand's podcast, and you were talking about your research into highly empathetic people. And you spoke to all sorts from monks to foster parents. And you said that the one thing you realised connected them all was a highly attuned sense of boundaries. And I found that really liberating because I think so many of us wrongly believe that

boundary setting is selfish. But can you tell us a bit more about that research? Yeah, it was shocking to me. I had this literal stack of data that I call the compassion smackdown. It was kind of the data that rose to the top in terms of interviewees or focus group members who were deeply compassionate, deeply caring, deeply engaged in loving toward other people. And I couldn't figure out, as a qualitative researcher, I'm a grounded theory researcher, what did they have in common? What were the patterns and themes? And I thought maybe my hypothesis was faith or spirituality, which was not the case. But then it kind of revealed itself as boundaries. And so we call this living big.

What boundaries need to be in place for me to be in my integrity and be very generous toward you? And the relationship between boundaries and generosity and assumptions of generosity and kindness toward people is it is very difficult to assume the best of people when they're walking all over you. And the more boundaried we are, I mean, Prentice Hemphill, pronoun they, they're a therapist, organizer, embodiment practitioner. They have the most beautiful, it's actually in Atlas of the Heart, the most beautiful definition of boundaries. Boundaries are the distance at which I can love both me and you. And I think it gets to this thing that if there's not self-love and self-respect, what you're giving to other people that's disguised as love and respect is often pretty hollow. So I really do believe that boundaries are the prerequisite for compassion and all over the world, but especially, I think in Silicon Valley, there's this wide adoption of organizational

value and organizational value. That's a assumption of positive intent. And it's so interesting because they want everybody in the culture to assume positive intent around people's actions, words, and deeds, but no one talks about how the culture has to be really respectful of boundaries in order for that to work so it usually falls flat i've got a couple more questions for you just two more if you've got time for it which i would love so you've spoken so beautifully and so openly about these times that you failed in your life and you have had the courage to lean into your vulnerability and now you are a hugely famous person and I wonder how you feel about your celebrity I'm sure people recognize you in the street now and I wonder you're a self-stated introvert does that get in the way or how do you feel about fame given the quality and the content

and the richness of your work? Does it ever obscure it? It obscures it all the time. Like just the words fame and celebrity make me cringe, to be honest with you. Even if I'm talking to my therapist about something, I'll say with a large platform like mine. I will avoid anything that has to do with celebrity or fame. I am very introverted. There's a size of platform that really is great for your work, especially if you're interested in impact, which I am, and I'm grateful for that. But anytime it inches towards fame or celebrity, it sabotages the work. And so what makes that hard is I just have to stay me and not self-protect the way that I think a lot of people do who feel like their lives are more public than they want to be. I'm not good at staying on message. I'm not good sometimes with media interviews because

I say things that just feel true and then they get turned around. It's tough. And some days it's hard. Some days it's heartbreaking. I feel like, fuck this, I can't keep doing it. But most every day I'm grateful because I'm not the only person with research or some ideas that could be helpful. I know how lucky I am to have a platform to get those into the world. So I am grateful for that. But the way that's used sometimes is really tough. I know a tiny, tiny filament of what it's like to get on stage and talk to an audience of people about times in one's life that things have gone wrong. You do that on such a massive scale. And I think you make it seem so easy and accessible and funny, and you're just an extremely good communicator. But I just want to acknowledge all of the effort and all of the hard work and all of the years of academic research that have gone into those moments,

because I think sometimes people just take it for granted that something that seems easy actually has been very hard work to get to that point. Do you feel that on stage or do you feel there's a flow to it because you seem to take to it very naturally? Yeah, I think the more natural it looks, the more prepared I probably am and the more I've probably thought about it and worked about it. So there's a relationship that I'm always very prepared. I work really hard at those things. So there's a relationship that I'm always very prepared. I work really hard at those things. And in terms of sharing my story, this has been true for maybe the past 15 years.

I'm very clear about my line. I will share what's vulnerable in my life, but I will never share what's intimate. And I never share stories with the public in books or on stage or in any other podcast. Never anywhere. public, in books or on stage or in any other podcast, never anywhere, I don't ever share anything that I am dependent on how the audience reacts for my healing. I only share what I've already worked through. So if you hear a story, I've already worked through that. I've probably worked through it with my therapist. I process through it. I don't use the stage or books as a place to process things that I've not already done. Because what I tell people who are new to this work and trying this work is you're sharing too much too soon. And for the wrong reasons,

if your healing is dependent on what the response is back to you. That is an incredible note. I've got one final question. You said that you have two children, 22 and 16. I just wonder what their friends think of the fact that their mother is Brene Brown. I think it's all over the board. I mean, I think my kids are proud of me. I think it can be a double-edged sword for them sometimes. But mostly what we talk about is a recent crush. Where are my goggles? Have you seen my field hockey stick? I mean, yes, you have to unload. Like, I mean, there are times when I'll be with one of my kids and like a group of people will run up kind of screaming and ask to take a picture or something. And I will

often say, you know what, I'm out with my kids. Sorry. Yeah, good boundary. There you have it. I'm like, not easy. But people respect, they may be disappointed or it might even piss somebody off. But in the end, you know, I remember the first time I stood in front of a crowd on a book tour and it was my first book tour where I stopped signing books. Cause you know, this is a room of 5,000, 6,000 people. Like how am I going to sign? I'm not going to do it. So I said, listen, I wanted to let you know, there's not a book signing. Instead of talking for an hour, I thought we'd talk about the work for an hour and a half. Me signing a book doesn't mean anything to me, but us having an extra 30 minutes for Q&A does.

And I'll be honest, I can't sit at a table and sign books because I have to be whole when I get home for the people who I really love and the people who I'm committed to in my life, my husband, Steve, my kids. really love and the people who I'm committed to in my life, my husband, Steve, my kids. And so I've set some boundaries around book tours in order for me to go home whole. And oh, my publisher was like, Jesus Christ, you cannot not sign books. It's against the rules of, you know, the unwritten rules of the book tour. And when I said that, I was so scared. I think it was in San Francisco was the first stop. And people leapt to their feet and started clapping. Because they also have to say no to shit so they can go home whole to the people who actually matter in their lives. Yeah, not that the book buyer didn't matter to me. But there are intimate relationships that I have to be a part of that I need to protect my energy

and my wholeness for. And I would invite them to do the same thing. Brené Brown, I am so grateful to exist in a time when you are doing the work that you're doing. I cannot thank you enough. I will always have you to my book club. You never have to cook me sexy rice. I just want to thank you on behalf of me, but also on behalf of all of the listeners of this podcast who I know are going to find so much meaning from listening to you. Thank you so, so much, Brené Brown. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.