How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S13, Ep3 How To Fail: Alan Cumming

Episode Date: January 26, 2022

*TW // brief mention of childhood abuse*Alan Cumming is a highly acclaimed actor on both stage and screen. He's played everything from Hamlet to a James Bond villain - and, of course, the political spinmeister Eli Gold on seven seasons of The Good Wife. His latest memoir, Baggage, was published last year and was described as 'wonderful, witty and wise' by Nigella Lawson.He joins me to talk about his self-stated failure to have children, his failure to see Kate Bush live and - bear with me - his failure to spit. Yes, you read that correctly.This was such a deep and stimulating conversation. We cover so much, including Alan's abusive upbringing at the hands of his father and what that taught him about self-worth, vulnerability and sexuality. I am so grateful for Alan's curiosity about life and his refusal to shy away from the darker stuff. And also for teaching me why memory is like drained spaghetti... (Trust me: it's a good metaphor).---Alan Cumming's latest memoir, Baggage, is out now and available to buy here: https://canongate.co.uk/books/4160-baggage-tales-from-a-fully-packed-life/---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Alan Cumming @alancummingsnaps Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Alan Cumming is, by his own admission, eclectic in all manner of ways. He is a highly acclaimed actor on both stage and screen, the author of five books, including a New York Times number one bestselling memoir, and a humanitarian whose activism in civil rights, sex education and social justice has earned him multiple awards, including an OBE. On stage, he has played everything from Hamlet to the MC in Cabaret, a role for which he won a Tony Award. played everything from Hamlet to the MC in Cabaret, a role for which he won a Tony Award. On screen, he has been a James Bond villain in GoldenEye, a Marvel movie baddie, and the political spinmeister Eli Gold on Seven Seasons of the Good Wife. That's the official biography. But as you might expect from a man once described by Time magazine as one of the three most fun people in show business, he has myriad other

achievements to his name, including having launched a range of perfume products called Cumming and having made back-to-back films with Stanley Kubrick and the Spice Girls. He's also voiced a Smurf twice, all of which is a long way from Cumming's upbringing in Perthshire, Scotland. all of which is a long way from Cummings' upbringing in Perthshire, Scotland. His father was violent and abusive, a trauma recounted in Cummings' 2014 memoir, Not My Father's Son. He escaped by getting a job in magazines as a teenager. Later, he got into drama school.

His first job after graduating was in the West End. Today, he lives in New York with his husband Grant Schaffer and their two dogs. His latest memoir, Baggage, was published last year and is a beautifully written, insightful look into his own psyche with lots of delicious Hollywood gossip thrown in. I am excited by many things and I keep my mind and my heart open to everything, Cumming writes. My lack of desire to be restrained in any form is central to my very being, my taste certainly, my output definitely, but also my sexuality and even my hair. Alan Cumming, I can't see your hair today. How eclectic is it? It's not too crazy today. It sort of short wet and can dull oh I'm afraid to say on the dull range of the eclectic spectrum well it is so lovely to have you on how

to fail not only did I adore baggage but we have something in common which is well I only discovered this doing research this interview we both have only connect tattooed on our arms shut yes the fuck up you kidding me I'm not I'm blown away by this I'm blown away by it me too my god that's crazy what arm is yours on left left forearm mine too so mine's on my left wrist it's on my left wrist wow when did you get yours done well I got mine done in 2019 and it was specifically to I mean I love Ian Forster and I love that particular phrase and it was specifically because I had had a book published and it was my first ever bestseller and I wanted to remind myself that what lies behind everything I do is connection so even if someone hated the book I would in some way have connected

with them so why did you get yours I got mine on my 51st birthday so that was yeah five years ago damn you got it and I got it because yeah sorry head of the circle copy do you okay uh-huh I got it because I feel this idea of connecting with people as well is the most important thing in life as an artist and as a person I think it's really the only thing to have and to do and then also I love the thing that's in the book and I've sort of, I read a lot about this whole sort of only connect theory and about the way you must connect your desire to the way you live your life. And I just wanted to be reminded of just making sure you connect properly with people at all times. I've met one other person. I did a concert in Amherst, that sort of college town in America, and a girl had done a thesis on Forster and she had it on her.

Same mum as me as well. So we're a band of three thus far. There's this beautiful line in Baggage where you talk about acting as authenticity, the idea that you let an audience see you no matter what disguise you're wearing. And I thought, I've never read that before. And I thought it was so profound. How long do you think it took you to realise that that was what acting was for you? A while. It was a gradual thing. But when I first started acting,

I sort of thought it was all about putting things on top of yourself. And so it took me a while to realise it's letting yourself out. And writing the book about them, I remember the moment when I realised that what acting was not quite this full sort of letting everything through but just not this thing of covering up but letting stuff out it was in the Edinburgh Lyceum Theatre in 1986 on a matinee of this show I was doing called Mr Government I remember coming off stage and walking back to my dressing room going oh god oh so that's what acting's about shit I'd all right I apologize in the book to everybody who saw me in all the plays that I did you know not many a couple of years of professional work who saw me I could have been better

why did you call your book baggage well I wanted to call it scenes between two marriages because it's bookended by two marriages but my publisher said the jokes about Bergman films didn't sell many copies so I chose something more snappy and I wanted to call it spaghetti as well because I make an allusion to your memory being like cooking spaghetti that kind of didn't go down well either I don't know I just felt like I mean something that everybody has I'm talking in the book about the need to embrace your past and to not deny trauma and fighting against this particularly American sort of trait of wanting everything to be tied up and the sort of redemption factor that they

love there. And everyone does really, but this idea that I'd somehow recovered and triumphed, I thought baggage was a good thing to sort of signal that, you know, this was about the stuff that you carry with you. And it's like a game of Jenga. Everything is part of where you are. And if you try and deny one bit or take it out, everything might fall down. Tell us the spaghetti metaphor, because it's a very good one. If you imagine a pot of boiling water with spaghetti cooking in it,

that's your life. And then you drain the spaghetti through a colander. The with spaghetti cooking in it. That's your life. And then you drain the spaghetti through a colander. The colander is your brain. And so what is left is your memory, the spaghetti. All the other stuff that drains away also happened, but it's either the boring bits or just kind of little details or the minutiae or stuff that you didn't register. And what's left is this spaghetti.

And that's what you remember. It's not necessarily the complete picture or accurate completely. But I think that's a good way to think about memory. It's this thing that's what you've held onto and you've let lots of other stuff go. You mentioned there that the book is bookended by two marriages.

It opens with you married to a woman and it ends with you happily married to Grant. How easy or otherwise do you find it being vulnerable and in a state of, I suppose, open-heartedness in both your writing and your life? Well, now I find it easy. I've made it my brand, you will a word that I hate really but it seems apropos I don't think of it as something that is a challenge anymore I realize how important it is and how much it can help people and so I like it because of that the book mentions an episode that you had where you had an exchange with Patti Smith and she said something to you about failure.

Can you tell us what she said? I was talking about why is it that I, not just me, but I was obviously talking about myself, but people, artists feel they need to do things, need to challenge themselves to the point of potential failure. What is that? What's that sort of weird trait? I don't understand that't understand I was like why

why would you do that why would you keep doing that and it was in reference to you know this dance piece that I'm going to do and she said to me Alan oh but it won't be a failure if you've tried your best and it was such a lovely thing it's like something you're like you know your granny would say to you it felt like but a very wise granny and Patti Smith has just got such wisdom and she's like a funny little witch you know a nice benevolent witch i really like her she really likes me and also she loves british detective tv shows oh my gosh obsessed i know isn't it nuts so in america is the thing i do called masterpiece mystery where i introduce on pbs the sort of public broadcasting station i introduce all all these British TV shows.

I come out of the shadows and go, you know, Miss Marple had no idea that when she took the 318 from Paddington, that journey would change her life forever. I'm an incoming and this is Masterpiece Mystery. It's like that. And she loves it. I met her and that's how she first sort of spoke to me because she was like, you're the mystery I was like what and she said she wanted that job I was like well keep that to yourself Paddy Smith but I'll be fired then one time we were at this party and Grant my husband he drew this actually he's an illustrator and it was a very hot night and there's these fans on in the room where the party was and I was walking over and I didn't see this but Grant did and Patty saw me and so she came over to say hello and she passed in front of one of those fans and

her hair went up like one of those spiky fish things you know it goes nuts and it just like ballooned up in this big huge fan thing and she's got really long hair it was just hilarious and I love that so whenever I think of Patty I think of her hair like sticking up on end and like spouting these really sort of wise things which is right that you know you just have to try your best I'm going to do this dance piece I'm going to be 57 years old and I'm doing a solo dance piece and I'm actually asking people to pay money and come and see it and I think that's exciting foolhardy all sorts of things but I think of her a lot foolhardy, all sorts of things. But I think of her a lot when I'm panicking about it.

That image will stay with me forever. Patti Smith with her hair on end watching Miss Marple. It's just joyous on every level. You've talked about being in your 50s. How have your 50s been for you as a decade so far? Pretty great. Good. I turned 50 when I was doing Cabaret on Broadway again.

I went back to doing Cabaret on Broadway and I did it partly because I would be turning 50 whilst doing it. I was dancing my tits off in a Broadway show, like being the lead dancer in a Broadway show in a kick line with girls half my age and it felt pretty good. And I had my birthday party,

Grant and I had a joint birthday party at Typhoon Lagoon in Disney World. We closed down the water park at Disney World and had this, I mean, it was such fun. It was such fun. And it was actually great because a lot of people were like, oh, Disney World, why are you having a party there?

And I was like, you know what? You have to open your heart. If you don't want to come, fine, but it will be fantastic. We are closing down an entire water park. It'll be just a couple of hundred people. We'll have the water park to ourselves. And there was other surprises, but it was just the best thing.

And it was about, for me anyway, about opening your heart. You know, you couldn't come and be cynical. And I just loved seeing all my friends and you know lots of my agents and worky people like that all coming down the big water slide and getting a wedgie it was just so hilarious that sounds so much fun and I completely understand the appeal it's been good since then too okay good good Do you think there's part of you that wants to reclaim the joyousness that you should have felt as a child that lots of other people are lucky enough to feel in childhood but because of your experiences which I alluded to in the introduction that was was denied you. Definitely. Yeah, absolutely.

I've written about this in various tomes, but I feel like I've lived my life backwards in a way. You know, when I was a little boy, I had to understand very adult things and I had to suppress my little boyness because, you know, it was a matter of survival, really. When I got out of my first marriage and I was living alone, it was the first time I had to make decisions about my taste and what I liked and how I wanted to live in my house. And I realized my aesthetic or my sensibility, at least in terms of how I wanted to have a house looking, was very bright and lots of kind of child-like things. And it

kind of still is. I like all that. That makes me happy. is I like all that that makes me happy and I just do things that make me happy I mean there's other people who've had a lovely childhood too are also like that but I definitely am very conscious of the fact I mean it's funny when I had to break down and all that stuff and came out the other side I did embrace my childhood like I embraced things that enjoy in a way that I realized I hadn't had in my childhood and then when my dad came back into my life again and told me I wasn't his in my childhood. And then when my dad came back into my life again and told me I wasn't his biological son about 10 years ago, I remember being on a train, going to France on the train,

and I was changing trains at King's Cross station. And I remember thinking, oh, I wonder how this is going to affect me. I wonder how my father coming back into my life and really being so disruptive and destructive again is going to manifest itself. I wonder what I'll do because last time when he kind of came crashing back into my life I embraced all that childlike stuff and so I wonder what it'll be like this time I bet it won't be that it'll be

probably something different and at that moment I found myself buying a naughty doll in the shop at King's Crust Station I mean literally that moment I was thinking that I thought oh I looked down I thought there was a naughty in my arms I thought oh I guess it's I guess we're going back to that so I've got a noddy now. Alan that's so moving for anyone who hasn't read your earlier brilliant memoir what you're referring to there is that you did the BBC show Who Do You Think You Are and yes your father claimed that you were not his biological son and you took a DNA test and showed that you were, and there was an element of confrontation, which must have required such bravery and courage. And one of the things that I found really interesting, I am going to get onto

your failures in a minute, I promise. In Baggage, you talk about the fact that your parents had radically opposed views of you, because your mother is incredibly loving and has always thought you're wonderful, rightly so. And that meant that you learned early on how important it was to have your own sense of self. And I think that's interesting, because I think many people would be undone by that. But in a way, it cemented your selfhood. Yes, it did. And I think having written so much and thought so much about my dad and about the sort of detritus of him that's left in me and around me I sort of think that's a really positive thing actually that I early on had to really make my own mind up about things and really sort of understand okay but they both can't be right I'm not precious and I'm not worthless I must be somewhere in the middle it's interesting I've you

know I've been doing this press tour and you know you talk endlessly about yourself it's interesting you continue to learn and you sort of continue to sort of evolve some of the theories that are in the book and I realize that I definitely feel that thing you spoke about, that quote you said earlier about being eclectic or something in all ways. In terms of sexuality, I sort of think about my dad having given me this great gift

because I saw him struggling with his desire. He was quite clearly nuts, but he was also a huge shagger and he because he didn't handle it well he wasn't kind he had no empathy I saw that desire is not something to be constrained it's not you can't fight it it's in you and it's just there and you just have to like Ian Forster with him when you connect you have to find a life that allows you to make that possible and to be kind to people. And in a way, I've never had shame about sexuality. I've comprehended the fact that some people don't like queerness or gayness and I, you know, duh, I've felt that and I get that.

But me, for me, my opinion of it, my understanding of it, I've not had any shame about it because I feel that's just an intrinsic part of who I am and there's nothing I can do about it and I just want to live a life that allows me to enjoy it to the full and to also be kind and I really feel that's the only positive thing I've learned from my father but it's a huge a hugely positive thing and I saw that by just observing him and observing his desire. Well, that's a very generous thing to say. A very open-hearted thing to say, actually. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week

as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago,

these words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. talking about you as a child and that naughty doll you got at king's cross station takes us onto your first failure which is such a meaningful one and i'm so glad you're talking about it as a man because i think i've had women on this podcast talk about it before but i've never heard the male perspective. And your first failure is your failure to have children.

Alan, tell us about that, because Baggage opens with you married to your first wife, Hillary, and trying to have children. Yes, and in a way, it's what precipitated my tumbling from my safe and secure and nice life. We were trying to have children and in a way, you know, made this lovely house in North London. We were kind of, you know, had been married quite a few years. It was sort of the next thing to do and we both really wanted it.

So we did all that thing, you know, like she'd go, quick, come home now, you know, the time is right. We were really hardcore going for it and we sort of thought it might be difficult so we kind of did all the things you're supposed to do and I took all these supplements blah blah so does she anyway we're hardcore going for it and it just my brain my mind had hidden from me I was too little and too fragile to process all the stuff that happened in my childhood the violence the abuse and abuse, and the fact that this was the kind of utter chaos of a parent being so awful and bad to you and hurtful to you.

I couldn't process that. I think my mind, in order to dysfunction, took all those memories. I mean, they weren't memories yet. They were actually my reality. They took it all away and hid it from me. And I think it's an incredible thing that the mind does that. It kind of completely protects you in that way. And then when I was trying to be a father myself,

it was as though my mind went, OK, sorry, but you've got to deal with this now. Here it comes. You ready? And out all those memories came. And that completely threw a spanner in the works of my perfect life, obviously. I crashed big time. And one of the first victims of that crash was I thought, I can't continue trying to have a child right now.

It's just impossible. I didn't understand everything. It took a while for it all to kind of fall into place. But I completely was like, no, I can't continue trying to have a child right now. It's just impossible. I didn't understand everything. It took a while for it all to kind of fall into place, but I completely was like, no, can't do this anymore. So obviously my wife was devastated by that and couldn't understand it. And I didn't even quite understand it. But then relatively soon after that,

within a year of that, we'd separated. So that was the first time I tried. I was trying. I mean, I think it was such a necessary thing to happen. And I'm really glad I didn't have children with her. It would have been a very awful and bitter, even more awful and bitter than actually the divorce was. with other people I sort of plan to do it with some same-sex partners I mean I talked about adoption and my sperm has been much requested of course over the years you know and I've never done it and I think in writing this book actually by the time I got to my husband Grant like we we did sort of talk about it a wee bit at the beginning, the first few years. But then I kind of got, I mean, I say that I got older and I got content. But it's in writing this book that I've thought a lot about.

Maybe I was too scared. If you feel that you've had a parent who is mentally ill and you understand the irrationality of that, then no matter how much therapy and how many books you write and how much you go on podcasts and talk about it, maybe you won't be able to be rational and I just worry that I was going to be a version of my father in terms of how I would treat my child and it's it's terrifying to me I've just felt that more

recently because I have lots of people in my life who I have a fatherly relationship with you know I'm 50 am I 57 56 can't remember 56 and I always forget because I always kind of I'm still like a little boy you know and say I'm nearly eight I'm like I'm nearly 57 I have a lot of people who I have a sort of fatherly relationship with and I I like that and I love having wisdom and being able to kind of share that and just share life with people that are much younger than me and and I think in a way I say this in the book I've become the father I wish I'd had yeah and I think it's no accident that he is childless so the fact that you have chosen it as one of your failures does it genuinely feel like that? Does it feel that there is a lack in your life?

I don't see it as a lack. I mean, I think there's a difference between a lack and a failure. I definitely see it as something I was trying to do and I failed at. It was something that was on the cards for me. I was actively trying to do. And later I was actively trying to do it as well. And the relationships I was in when I was doing that didn't last so maybe it's the relationships that failed and the children thing is a result but it is a failure I feel it is a failure I don't sit every day thinking oh I wish I had kids not at all in fact I'm really glad I don't in many ways but it's definitely

something in my life that was supposed to happen. It was on the cards and I just didn't do it. I think because of writing this book, I've realized probably why I chose it is because I'm scared. I've still got the shadow of my father. Like I say, you know, the trauma, the baggage of him still looms large. So I don't know how much you know about me, but I have also tried and thus far failed to have children. And it does feel like a failure to me too, even though lots of people are very kind and say, well, no, it isn't your failure, but it feels like having children is one of, if not the big life adventure. And the narrative around it is very much it gives you

access to a kind of love that you have never experienced before and I don't know whether that's true or not but I think for you you are such a quester for human emotion that that must feel difficult not having had access to this huge experience does that track with you yeah absolutely that kind of primal visceral sort of love and connection that people talk about I was talking the other day because we're talking about a friend of Grant's brothers who was talking about having kids to someone who said, you know what, you should really do it. You should really do it. You know how much you love your dog, right? And the guy went, yes. He went, well, imagine a dog that talks.

That's so good. Isn't that good? And you know, I mean, I know lots of people whose dogs are, including myself, completely sort of child substitutes. I think it's hilarious. I'm quite glad they don't talk. Do you think, because I definitely feel this, that part of my prolific output in terms of books or podcasts is because I feel the need to leave something behind if it's not going to be a human do you have that oh I don't think so you know I'm always really fascinated about the whole sort of like the function of your body I think for a woman I'd be curious to what you think about this that your kind of genetic thing that you the shape of your body that what it does one of the things it does and is kind of geared towards is this function this sort of child

making function and I think with men that's why that thing about you know it's not his fault his sperm all that all that stuff like that weird sort of the way we have to indulge when people are trying to have kids or sort of men seem to be really slighted if their sperm is not up to it and it's, you know, awful about how so many people now have, and I'm really fascinated by that as well. Like,

you know, the way our world is and the pollution and all these things and all the shit we put in our bodies affects just, you know, it's almost like in the way that my mind stopped me from remembering things. It's almost like the world is consciously making us less populated. Oh, that's interesting

yes damage to the planet but I think it must be more you know the mother thing this sort of rearing nurturing thing I think it must be more physical more of a physical thing because it's kind of what your body's for and the older you are and you don't do it you must literally feel it inside you is that what you feel? Yeah, and I appreciate it's such a difficult thing to talk about. And I appreciate your sensitivity expressing it. Yes, I think the thing is, is that because I've only ever been in this body and this world, I don't understand how much of it

is integral to how I think and feel and how much of it is overlaid by social conditioning. And so if I existed in a separate universe where we hadn't had millennia of patriarchy, would I still feel that biological urge is the question? And I don't know. I think I probably I don't know. I think I probably would because it does feel, and I know not every woman by any means and feels the urge to procreate or have a child. And I also know that there are so many different ways to be a parent, not just the biological one. But I think it's that thing that it's difficult to separate. But my experience has been, you know, I've had a lot of fertility procedures and the world of fertility medicine is definitely geared up to make you feel as a woman like a failure because you're not fulfilling your biological imperative. And I think I've internalized a lot of that. It's interesting that thing about bodies and how much they define you, because so much of your work on stage, particularly, I feel is about transcending bodies and being an energy or like a sprightly essence.

How do you feel about your body? well in terms of children I really understand in my sort of early 30s I definitely felt that sort of biological clock thing that thing that women we hear women talk about this sort of physical yearning for something and the idea that I've got to do this soon it's when it's the time I'm supposed to do this I really felt that about having a child even when I was in a situation where that was not physically possible that was very visceral I mean it's interesting I'm on this press tour I've got a cold I've not been able to exercise I'm eating at weird times I'm just looking at myself today when I came out the shower I thought oh god you gotta get your shit together mister you know hitting 60 things aren't so svelte as

they used to be normally I feel pretty good about my body right now I'm feeling I've let it go a little bit I don't like that there's a state that I like being in of my weight and my fitness and when it happens I feel it I feel like oh this is it this is me I'm a prime sort of thing and of course that's I guess you've got to change that as you go older, but I'm not in that right now. I feel like you and I are a similar sort of generation in terms of our outlook. We grew up in a very binary age. And now, happily, we're not living in those times where there's so much greater acceptance of fluidity and non-binary identity. And a lot of that is related to our physical form and our notion of gender.

And I wonder if I could ask you, I'm sorry, this is such a deep question, but I'm so interested in what you say. What, and the rest of it so far has been light? I know, it's just been really trivial. We're getting on to humorous radius next though, so I need to get all my serious questions out of the way. If you had been born now and were raised now, do you think you would identify as a man?

Oh, yes. I mean, actually, I'm really fascinated about this. I love being a man. I like being a man. I like that. And my manness, I've never really thought about, I mean, I've thought about it, but I think, no, I don't have that, even to be non-binary, I don't have that desire and maybe because I get to express so much of that in my work it's something that I have had you know a chance to do that and it's maybe that's why that's an element of it but no and I'm not like you know a particularly macho, I'm not at that end of the spectrum at all, I'm quite sort of femmy in some ways. People love to dress me up. When I do photo shoots, I'm always, you know, got smoky eyes.

People always want to put me in dresses. People want to fem me. And I quite like it. It's fun. I like playing with that. Or the sort of androgynous thing works for me rather than the full, you know, going the whole hog. I'm not just aesthetically, I'm not that attractive a lady. I've done it in things and films and stuff like that. But I don't have a sort of internal urge for that. It's a sort of a superficial thing. I like being a man. A lot of people I know have kind of changed their gender

or are identifying as non-binary. And I think that's great. And I really feel so happy for them. But I've never had that conflict. I sort of see it as a conflict that you have to resolve. I've not had that. In my own version of it, I'm much more of a guy than I think maybe I give the impression of.

There's no easy link to the next failure. But your second failure is your failure to see Kate Bush live oh no this really is a failure okay yeah forget the children Kate Bush yeah okay because like with the children it was always potential and it was always you know this is actually this I could have done this I chose not to I suppose and I was obsessed with her I mean I still am but when she was in in the late 70s when she did a tour I think 1979 I was 14 and she came to Edinburgh so it's kind of far away but I never saw her there and I knew she was coming and I just wasn't allowed I just wasn't able to do that because of all the stuff that's going on but then so when she did it again you know and did it at Shepherd's Bush and did all those shows I was in Cabaret

on Broadway and people I knew were flying over and I heard all these things about it and I just think it was ridiculous that I didn't you know go take a day off and go I mean I think it would have been and for so many people of my generation who she was this sort of beacon in my teens in the midst of the awful stuff that was happening to me to see someone in the mainstream who was poetic and witty and mad and witchy and theatrical and modern dancey it was literally a lif. It was literally a lifeline. She was literally a lifeline to me. That that was possible and that was out there and it was lauded and loved.

And there were other people. I mean, it's long before, obviously, the internet and all the sort of ways now that you can be in touch with people. It made me feel I was not alone. I hate the fact that I didn't go and see her. So you've never met Kate Bush, presumably? No, but some people I know have. Actually, I remember years and years ago,

I did a film with Lenny Henry, and he said he'd gone to Kate Bush's house. She had some sort of a recital or something at her house, and he was invited. And I just remember thinking, oh my fucking God, I can't believe you actually just said that, let alone that it happened. and then my friend John Tiffany he won the South Bank show award for directing and she won it you know for that series of concerts I think and he was at the same table as Kate Bush and you chatted to her and

I was just like oh my god I mean she's got like a sort of I don't know I think I would scream if I saw her or something you know what I mean it's it's she's almost like a sort of, I don't know, I think I would scream if I saw her or something. Do you know what I mean? She's almost like a goddess. She's not like a real person to me. Do you get intimidated still when you meet people that you admire? Yes, but it's a certain strand of connection. It's not like, what I mean is it would be weird to some people you know I like Kate Bush obviously I met Christopher Guest and Eugene Levy you know those films of Christopher Guest

like Waiting for Government and films I just I think they're so genius Waiting for Government really taught me a lot about America and I was just so happy again I suppose it's kind of like the lifeline thing I was so happy to see that there was satire in America and that clever, biting yet tender satire. And also, if that was being satirized, it must actually exist. So when I did meet them both, I just get very nervous. I mean, get like inner turmoil. With Eugene Levy, I completely geeked out, actually,

and sort of started reciting lyrics from a song that's only on the DVD extra and he was really happy with that because he was you know the song had been cut and I you know knew all the words and I was just saying how brilliant I thought it was that was nice and with Christopher Guest I mean he's very sort of quiet and do it and serious and I was sat next to him at a dinner and I made him laugh it was like I could have wept in that moment when he laughed I was sat next to him at a dinner and I made him laugh. It was like I could have wept in that moment. When he laughed, I was just like, oh my God, you know, what an incredible achievement. I made this great man laugh. Do you love this as Spinal Tap as well?

Yes, not so much though. I've actually never seen Waiting for Guffman and now I'm literally going to watch that this weekend. Not so much, though. I've actually never seen Waiting for Guffman, and now I'm literally going to watch that this weekend. It's a work of genius and so multi-layered. And it's so funny because it's about this little town in Missouri, and they're celebrating their 150th anniversary of being a town. And so the little local council put on a show to sort of celebrate it.

It's called Blaine. And there's this kind of failed poofer who's from the area he's gone to New York and he does this that's what Christopher Guest plays he's called Corky Sinclair it's this kind of you know little gay closeted man who went to try and be a dancer and he said he went to New York and he was in the merchant navy he came off the boat with a dance belt and a tube of chapstick that's all he had to his name and he comes back and he was in the Merchant Navy. He came off the boat with a dance belt and a tube of chapstick. That's all he had to his name. And he comes back and he teaches drama and then he does this show.

And when they're doing the show, he writes off to all these people, these sort of like producers and things like this and people, the head of all these institutes and kind of organizations. And one of them writes back and said, he's going to come and see it. They're going to send a representative to see it and parker pussy i love parker she's in and they're all in the sort

of the gym doing rehearsals and they're building the set around them and they and she goes what does this mean corky and he goes this means we could be going to broadway and they actually think that this little show this little community Amdram show is going to go to Broadway they just get it down their heads that that's going to happen and so it's so hilarious and deluded but also so tender and heartbreaking

and that's what I think is so brilliant about him and why I bring that up is that I do this show with Ari Shapiro he's this on National Public Radio in America he hosts this thing called All Things Considered every night so he's this very serious public broadcasting journalist but he's also hilarious and we do this show together we started doing it's called Och and Oi I'm the Och and he's the Oi because he's Jewish and we have been doing it and we're now catching up with the shows that were cancelled because of the pandemic.

We were in Maine recently and an old agent of mine came to see the show in Portland. And he was like, Alan, Alan, my God, this is a great show. I was like, oh, thanks. He went, no, no, no. You've got to take this to Broadway. A limited season.

It would be great. It would go down so well on Broadway. And Ari and I were like, oh my God. I was like, what does this mean, Ari? And he goes, it means we could be going to Broadway. Oh, so lovely. It's so hilarious. I just adore Christopher Gale.

I'm just obsessed with him. Anyway, we're talking about Kate Bush. We're talking about Kate. So would you, if you got the chance, would you like to meet Kate Bush? We're talking about Kate. So would you, if you got the chance, would you like to meet Kate Bush? Or do you worry that she needs to exist as an unreachable icon for you? I think the latter.

I do think that. Like I've seen John, my friend who's met her, his journey with Björk. Because he's obsessed with Björk too. He's a genius director. And he was going to do this project with Björk. And he went to Iceland to meet her and everything. And it's something like they arrived and her mother had died this is so sort of Björki they arrived in Iceland and her mother had died that day or something or the day before and she was like okay it doesn't matter let's have a meeting you know kind of dark nutty kind

of person and then it all went kind of wrong and she pulled out she didn't want to take bizarrely it seems and that's why I think it must be so awful. She didn't really want to take a chance. She didn't want to do the project in the way that John was suggesting. She wanted to stick to her old ways of doing concerts and performing. And so I saw him go through this journey of his idol becoming like a little ploddy sort of pop star who's not really willing to push the boat out and also I think Kate Bush doesn't really she's obviously not one of those people that wants to

meet people who's going to fangirl on her she's kept this very very reclusive hermetic almost life I mean she popped out again for those concerts but she's kind of popped back and you know you never see her really go she never goes She never goes to parties and premieres or whatever. You don't see her being interviewed in that way. So I think I should just keep a safe distance and let her be. Well, she's a regular listener to How To Fail, so she'll hit... No, I'm joking.

I'm joking. I'm sorry, Almond. That's so mean. I'm so sorry, but I love that you believed me just for that split second. Oh, my mind was racing. Oh, my heart's beating really fast now. Oh, sorry, sorry.

Listen, I'm sure we'll put it into the... What if I have a heart attack whilst we're doing this? That would be terrible. And it would be the Kate Bush failure. We'll put it into the universe and it will probably make its way to her. And I think that's such a beautiful tribute to what she meant and means to you.

Your final failure, I'm very intrigued by this, is that you fail at spitting, Alan. Yes. So tell us about this failure. Well, that's the one that I went into Grant's studio when I had to choose my three things. It took me ages, actually, to choose. I guess because the whole thing about failing to have kids

is such a big thing to see that I was kind of putting it off. And you were on, I have this list of things I've got to do that my office sends me. And you were on it for like weeks and weeks and weeks. You know, make a list of your failures or whatever it said. And then I was like, oh gosh, you know. And then the publicist lady was going, and then it's another thing I had to do,

like a record that makes you cry with sadness and a record that makes you cry oh gosh, you know, and then the publicist lady was going, and then it's another thing I had to do, like a record that makes you cry with sadness and a record that makes you cry with happiness, you know. There's all these things you've got to do, all these sort of weird. Just plunder your own emotional soul. Yes. And it's like, you know, next to, oh, you're invited to blah, blah.

You know, it's just, that was my life right then. Anyway, so I'd committed to these first two and I went into Grant's studio and I said, what do I fail at? Like that. And he just looked at me for a moment and he went spitting. And I was, and I didn't say anything. I just nodded and I walked right out and wrote it on the email back to the publicist.

Because I can't do it. I can't, like when I spit, like, you know, when you're like in the countryside and you just sort of think I'll just have a spit nobody's gonna mind do you know what I mean it's not and let's go and just like do a gob it all kind of goes on my arm and it just you know it just doesn't come out right and I can't get the distance thing and then I or I kind of I do a sort of like a weird dance move trying to put my head back and lunge it forward, like sort of will it to go away from me.

And Grant thinks it's hilarious. So can Grant spit? Yeah, he can spit. Most boys can spit. He's a very male thing. Like I've never, I don't think I've ever knowingly spat or felt the urge to, but it seems to be one of those things

that you have to do as a proper man. Yes. Yes. So interestingly, I'm not, I can't do it, but I want to do it because I quite, not for the manliness thing. I'd like to do it on my own. You know, it's not a show off thing. I'd like to be able to just have a decent spit. Like sometimes I think, oh, I want to, you know, like if you've got a cold or something and you have to spit something, sometimes I like if I'm on the street, you can spit in the street, you can spit on a tree or something or you have to spit something sometimes I like if I'm on the street you can spit in the street you can spit on a tree or something or in the gutter it's not a terrible transgression but I sort of think oh I'm not going to in case people look because people see me this is not

terrible and also I don't know there's just it's something satisfying about it as well I was actually going to it's funny the other thing I was toying with as my other failure was saying the word l-i-b-r-a-r-y okay because library I say library like I say I can't say it I know and like I can say it if I act it if I have to say it in a film or something you know oh I'm going into the library I can do that I can say it like that but when I'm just being me I say library library library I know that if I really really focus on it I can do it but Grant doesn't want me to he likes it and so he sort of made me promise not to work too hard at it to get it right. How do you say the second month of the year? February. I've worked it out.

You go for the R. February. But library is just a mental block. You know, it's a failure that I could conquer. And I sort of wonder, you know, but spitting, I really try hard. We go out walking in the forest by our house upstate New York and we both spit a lot. And he just laughs at me.

And I actually get annoyed. Your relationship sounds so lovely, and I love the way you met, which just is such a tale of serendipity. Because you sat next to someone on a plane, also called Grant. Is that right? Yes. Who you briefly dated, who is your now Grant's best friend, and that's how you met.

Yes, exactly. When people say, oh, how did you meet? I say, oh, I your now grant's best friend and that's how you met yes exactly when people say oh how did you meet i say oh i shagged his best friend that's what i say and he goes into this oh well you know because he's so sort of decent so lovely about me always makes a point of saying that by the time we got together the other grant had met someone and was in a great relationship it's such a lovely thing, I think. He wants to make sure that people don't think there was any sort of shadiness about it. But I just think it's a good story to say,

I shout out his best friend. Well, that was one of the things that we're coming to the end of this beautiful conversation. I've loved it so much. But I wanted to ask you about the fact that you are friends with all but one of your exes which I think is so amazing because as much as I've tried I don't think I've ever been able to cultivate that and my husband thinks it's weird anyway to be friends with your exes but you seem to have the gift for it yes

but also I think it's a straight person failure right it's harder to do it in straight life I think in same-sex things it's much more normal for that to be the case like I was just thinking actually that the house upstate that we have I bought that 20 years ago we had a dinner it was a week after 9-11 I got it so it was recently it was 20 years after 9-11 so it was 20 years since I bought the place so this dinner to celebrate 20 years of this lovely sanctuary. And there was about 12 people at the dinner. And four of them I'd had sex with. Or you know what I mean?

Or I'd been in a relationship with or something with. I'd been in a relationship, actually, with three of them. Anyway, and I just remember thinking, God, that would never happen if we were straight. Because basically why your husband thinks it's weird and why I think straight people don't do it is because they're threatened by it. They're threatened by the possibility that you might go off and, you know, rekindle. And it's about sex. It's actually about sex.

That's the threat. And I think in same sex things, I think we place sex in a much more practical and proper place in our psyches. I think we're much more open about it, much more adventurous, actually, about it, and also much more sort of forgiving about it. You know, the sort of fairy tale thing that you meet someone and you're going to just fall in love with them and have sex with them for the rest of your life doesn't really go down well in queer circles. So I think we have a better understanding of our own needs because we're with someone who has the same needs.

I think we understand that better. Fascinating. My final question is, it would be remiss of me not to talk about Eli Gold. You don't talk about The Good Wife at all in Baggage. And I wonder if you're keeping your material for a third memoir. Well, I only go to 2007 in baggage and I didn't start The Good Wife till 2009 or 10 so yes I mean

I've got lots to say about it and it did have a great sort of effect on me mostly because it made me a grown-up in terms of I realized a lot about myself because I was so horrified that they asked me to do it. Initially, I was like, what? I couldn't understand it. I just thought, I'm not, what? I remember saying, why are they asking me? He's a middle-aged man in a suit. Why are they asking me?

Because I'd never really played sort of humans. You know what I mean? I've always played sort of fantastical people. It's actually crazy. You know how you have all these agents and managers and you go, Christ, what are they all for? Sometimes. And then sometimes you think, oh, I see. That's actually crazy. You know how you have all these agents and managers and you know, Christ, what are they all for sometimes? And then sometimes you think, oh, I see that's what they're for. They sometimes give you really good advice and really push you to do things that are good for you. Anyway, I remember saying he's a middle-aged man in a suit. And then I thought to

myself, well, I'm a middle-aged man. So if I put a suit on, boom, we're're there and I know that sounds really puerile but it was a revelation and also that a seemingly normal person I mean in a way that's what baggage is about as well I wanted to say I am a fucking hot mess a lot of the time I hold it together but a lot of the time I'm just flailing and luckily I have people to help me and a system and a structure but I don't want to pretend that I'm not flailing and I'm a hot mess or I do things that I just say oh my god Alan can't believe you just did that I make mistakes and I think that's why with Eli he's got this arm out of the middle-aged man in the suit and the kind of ballsy tight arsed sort of person but actually inside he is an insecure mess and also just a collection of just crazy that was so heartening to me to just

realize that that you don't have to think it's because you're playing someone in a suit on a tv show ostensibly about lawyers and stuff what I thought that meant is so not what it actually turned out to be I needed to learn that it goes back to what we were saying at the beginning and what you were saying about acting as authenticity and letting an audience see you no matter what disguise you're wearing and I yes love you as Eli Gold it was inspired casting I can't wait to read about it in the next installment. Alan Cumming, you are my kind of flailing hot mess. Ah, thanks. What a beautiful soul and what a fascinating conversation we had. I can't thank you enough for opening up and just being wonderful.

Thank you. You too. I really enjoyed it. And thank you for opening up too if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with Elizabeth Day I would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist