How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S13, Ep8 How To Fail: Delia Smith

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

Yes, it's the SEASON FINALE so you bet I'm going to use CapsLock. And for our final episode of Season 13, I speak to the cooking legend that is Delia Smith.But if you're expecting a chat about her failure to poach an egg in 1986, you're very much mistaken. Because, at 80, Delia has just written a new book about the meaning of life. Called You Matter, it's an insightful inquisition into what it is to be human. She joins me to talk about human evolution and where it's leading us, as well as why failure is an integral part of getting to know ourselves.This is such an interesting episode: I loved chatting to Delia but we didn't spend that long on her actual three failures. Instead we talked more broadly about life, love, loss, faith, meditation (without using that specific word) and everything in between. She tells me about what it's like to be a cooking icon, why she hates Masterchef and the sous-vide machine and yes, we do talk about THAT moment of 'let's be having you' at the Norwich City football match. She opens up about being a woman who doesn't have children in the public eye, her failure to pass the 11 plus and how that shaped the rest of her life, and her love of Pharrell Williams. It was a joy to have such an unexpected conversation. I hope you like it too - and we'll be back soon with some bonus episodes. PLURAL.--I'm doing a live show! Come along to the Royal Festival Hall at 4pm on Sunday 13th March and join me, the wonderful Andi Oliver and Jordan Stephens, for an afternoon of chats and laughter and, yes, failure. I'll be interviewing the two of them, chat-show style, and then YOU will get a chance to ask us all your questions. Hope to see you there. You can book tickets here: https://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/whats-on/literature-poetry/sunday-afternoon-wow-elizabeth-day?eventId=890800--Delia's new book, You Matter, is out tomorrow and available to order here: https://www.waterstones.com/book/you-matter/delia-smith/9781912914333--The YouTube video with Karim Sulayman that Delia mentions in this episode is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCy8Cfvoe6g---How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]---Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Make your nights unforgettable with American Express. Unmissable show coming up? Good news. We've got access to pre-sale tickets so you don't miss it. Meeting with friends before the show? We can book your reservation. And when you get to the main event, skip to the good bit using the card member entrance.

Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Hello, it's Elizabeth here. Just to let you know, if you can't get enough of this podcast, and quite frankly, who could? I'm doing an in real life live event at the WOW Women of the World Festival. It's on the Sunday of the 13th of March at 4pm. I'll be at the Royal Festival Hall in London and I'll be doing a sort of failure chat show where I'll be joined by some very special guests to talk about what failure means to them, what they've learned through their worst mistakes mistakes how they withstood some of the toughest

times in their lives and it will be uplifting too I promise we'll be chatting about friendship about womanhood about what matters to you there'll be chance to ask questions and I can't wait to see you all there so if you'd like to be part of that audience, go onto the Southbank Centre website, that's southbankcentre.co.uk and search for my name. And I very much hope to see some of you there. And now on with today's episode. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning

how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest today is best known as a beloved cookery writer and TV presenter, a woman so influential that when she made a recommendation of a particular ingredient, it ran the risk of selling out overnight. Legend has it that her television series, How to Cook, led to a 10% rise in egg sales. Her influence is known, quite simply, as the Delia effect. Having sold over 21 million books and shaped the taste of several generations, she's reached a national treasure status that ensures she is recognised by her first name only.

But in case you hadn't already worked out, she is, of course, Delia Smith. However, cookery does not define her. Smith is also a majority shareholder in Norwich City Football Club and has been sustained by a lifelong religious faith. Her latest book, her first since 2013, is quite a departure from her previous work. Entitled You Matter, it's an insightful meditation on what it means to be human, what our purpose is on this planet, and how our evolutionary next step is to work together towards a better future. She has, in short, tackled the essence of life itself. It's no mean feat, but as she explains in the book, Smith is at peace with the idea of failure.

Fear can have no truck with someone who is happy to fail, she writes. Being willing to fail releases us from many expectations and anxieties. A wonderful thing then happens. There's no pressure. Sometimes you succeed and sometimes you don't. And a new freedom comes into play. Delia Smith, welcome to How to Fail. Well, you've explained that much better than I could. That was such a relief.

I'm going to have to write it down because people say about my book, how do you describe it? Yours is the best description I've heard. Oh, well, that's a real honour. Thank you so much. But I actually found it quite easy to explain, because what you do so brilliantly is you make complicated and big ideas accessible. And I suppose that's the thread, isn't it, throughout your career? Same as cooking. Yes. But tell us about the inspiration for writing You Matter, because it is quite a task to take on what you have. Yes I think really if you take on something I got used to that over my life and we're going to talk about it soon but I think if you're prepared to fail you can have a go at anything so therefore it was something I really wanted to have a go at and I've got this wonderful agent

that I've had for 50 years she encouraged me and she said when you get to 80 you can do anything you like you know I think she actually said 70 not 80 when you're 70 you can do anything you like so do what you like and so I said well I'd really like to have a go at this. But I knew in my mind that I would have a go at it. But if it didn't work, it didn't matter. So that was how I started. And I don't know whether you find it when you're writing, but things grow as they go, don't they? You start something and then it suddenly goes in its own direction, in its own way. I have to say that, yes, it was five years, but it was enjoyable. I absolutely enjoyed it.

I said, aren't I lucky sort of sitting here all day thinking about these great big things and trying to work them out? That was really quite an experience. And did it feel like the work of a lifetime, the fundamental premise, which is that sense of convergence and unity? Yes. Is that something that you've grown to understand? Or do you think you intrinsically understood it all of your life? No, I think it's something I've grown to understand. Although when I first got involved in football, I did realise very quickly that human beings are at their best when they're community. That's something that I used to say

quite a lot, not really kind of understanding where it came from, but I could see we are at our best when we're community. And so that was what was, was you know going to be the theme running through the whole thing has football taught you anything about failure oh dear oh dear I mean I'm not casting aspersions on there are there are a few moments of success but I think when I see a five year old sitting on the terraces crying his eyes out because the whistle's gone and we've lost, I know that five-year-old is learning about life. And I would say that football teaches you because life is going to be like that. It's going to be failure and it's going to be success and it's going to be joy. But there is a mystic who lived in the middle ages called

julian she's called julian of norwich and she had this wonderful phrase pain is passing joy is lasting and i think that's true and i think the joy that you get in football when you do have success which is rarely all the pain just disappears you talk in the book about spiritedness yes and how that's so much more appealing than someone who is unchanging or doesn't believe in the capacity of humans to change that's right and you cite this famous now moment when you were on the pitch at norwich City. Can you tell us about why you chose to write about that? Because I feel so many people will know that clip and feel such love for you because of it. Yeah, yeah. The story of it, if you want to hear the story, was a couple of matches

before that. We weren't doing very well and the crowd suddenly got behind the team. And once the crowd got behind the team, we then came through. So that particular night, the crowd were like church mice and we were losing quite badly. So I just went down to the perimeter at halftime and I said, can we please get something on the screen to tell people to sing up and start cheering? And they said, no, we haven't got time to actually do that in the 15 minutes. But the guy who said that to me was holding a microphone in his hand and he said, you can go and tell them if you like. So I grabbed the microphone. But what I'd forgotten, completely forgotten, is that it was being televised.

I had forgotten that. And you do. You don't know the television's there because you've got cameras anyway there doing videos. So why would you know that they were there? So that was my downfall. I mean, it went viral. It was you saying, let's be Avenir. And it's become a meme that is many people's favourite way of expressing something that they feel enthusiastic about.

I know. And I'm a big believer that life should be more full of enthusiasts rather than cynics. Yes. Enthusiasm and passion. I had a very bad week after it because there were all kinds of, you know, I was supposed to go before a FA committee and be disciplined. You know, you don't do that kind of thing in football and all kinds of things in the press. But then suddenly it just turned around and suddenly I was getting letters from supporters all over the country saying, oh, if only we had an owner like you. Good on you.

So then it turned really nice in the end after that first week. Do you think that taught you something about criticism and how to deal with it? Yes, I think it did. About two nights after that, I was at a dinner. I forget what it was, but it was like a formal dinner in the RAC club and I was sitting next to this lovely man who had worked in football and he obviously the conversation it was right on that first few days and he said to me the thing about leadership is you've got to take a risk he said you've got to take risks and sometimes it doesn't work but you have to do it so I wrote it down what he said on a piece of an envelope and I've still got that in my drawer at home that piece because it is so lovely what

he said to me when everyone else was sort of being sniffy he was just saying it's okay to do that and you've taken a risk with this book and I feel that as a country we can be somewhat unforgiving yes of people that we know in one category yes doing something outside yeah but I feel like you're someone that's never been a fear for you because you were known as this incredible cookery writer yes and then you did football and now you're doing the meaning of life itself. So I suppose I've already answered my own question, but do you feel any fear about putting yourself out there? No, no. Because one of the things I've tried to write about,

and you mentioned, is that if you know yourself and you develop yourself and your own spirituality, then you lose, I think I say, the ego falls by the wayside. And so therefore, you're free of worrying about what people might say or what they might think. I would also say on top of that, I've had a life of criticism. When I was doing cookery, you know, I was the boring person. I wasn't doing great things to make people gasp at the table. I was just teaching people how to do an omelette.

And I was criticised quite a lot. So there were quite a lot of things. And I used to get really hurt and I used to get really upset. But then I've learnt as life goes on, once you accept yourself and your own who you are, then it actually doesn't matter so the criticism yeah okay you don't like it or want to have it but if it's there you're free of it I want to go back to the bits that I really related to and that taught me an immense amount in you matter but I

also just want to pay tribute to what an influence you were for so many people who didn't think they could cook I grew up with your books in my mother's kitchen we have them here in our kitchen right now that is an extraordinary lasting legacy it is and I'm so honored to be sitting opposite you I really am I can't quite believe that I'm so honoured to be sitting opposite you. I really am. I can't quite believe it. I'm pinching myself. And I wonder, first of all, if you realise that, but secondly, whether there's an element that is also a bit annoying that people will always first know of you as Delia Smith, How to Cook. Well, I think the first bit is hard to realise. It is hard to realise. And other people say what you've just said.

But I absolutely love it. I've got so many friends everywhere that I don't even know. And there's the warmth that comes from them and the appreciation because they've been able to cook. So that's really nice. I've forgotten the second part there. The second part was whether it's annoying that people typecast you as Delia Smith the woman who has the Delia effect and makes omelettes sell okay no no not at all good that's a relief yes because that was in

my intro and I was like I hope that's not irritating no not at, not at all. Not at all. If you were a dish, Delia Smith, what dish do you think you'd be? Something comforting, I hope. Like a roast chicken. Yes. Or a cheese omelette. Yes, I've written about that. If you're miserable and you're having a bad day, roast a chicken. It'll always make you feel better.

So the bits in You Matter that really stuck with me were your take on what others might call meditation but in calling meditation immediately put me off you're very clever because you don't ever call it that but it isn't that no tell us what it is in your eyes it's stillness and silence is number one. And I don't mean rigidly still. Being comfortable, being somewhere where there's silence, to spend time with yourself. And if you let your mind do whatever it wants to do, the thing I have against so-called meditation,

because obviously I did explore it, is you've got to empty your mind, you mustn't do this, and you've got to do that, and you've got to have your back straight. And that's not human. I'm only interested in what human life is and what's naturally there. And naturally, human beings need space. They just do. And even little children, they have space and they go quiet for a little while. And we have this very deep capacity for spirituality. And sometimes it never gets discovered. And that's what I want. I want people to discover their own capacity for thought, for reflection. And if you're daydreaming so be it and somebody told me

yesterday they had gone and sat down for half an hour after reading my book and all they could think about was this pop group and I said that's it that's it if that's all you think about that's fine but it's like you're there you're giving yourself time and if you want to know somebody anybody at all there's no way you'll ever know them without spending time with them one-to-one time not when you're hoovering you know I'm on my own when I'm hoovering no it's if you're by yourself then you're giving time to yourself and out of, without you trying or doing anything, you will develop this getting to know yourself better. You'll develop all the things that are there and they're sort of undiscovered. But it's that simple, you see, and that's what's hard to

communicate that, you know, you don't have to do anything. Yeah. And if things happen, like I'm sitting down and I'm reflecting and there's a great big problem with someone, a personal problem, or you're thinking that, well, so be it. I found it such a relief to read that. And you talk about how, I think it was an Indian Sufi that you spoke to, said that the secret to human contentment and enlightenment was 30 minutes every day spent on your own in silence. Yeah. And you can build up to that.

You can build up to that. What he said was that it is almost impossible. You know, why it is, I don't know. But none of us wants to do it. You know, I haven't got time. If I want to watch EastEnders, I don't. time if I want to watch e-senders I don't but if I wanted to it wouldn't be a problem I just turn the television on sit down for an hour or however long it is but to sit down just for yourself quietly seems to be very difficult

so he said just do 10 minutes a day to start off with and then increase it to 20 and then increase it to half an hour. And the optimum would be an hour. I thought what was good about that was somebody's telling you how. And that's very much on the same par as cooking. It's all very well, but you want to know how and you want somebody to spell it out to you. All these things I wrote in the book, but it didn't come out through the book. I got rid of it in the end. But I did write in one place where whatever you do, don't go and pay to do meditation.

Don't go and pay for something, because my mother would have said they saw you coming. Your mother, Etty. Yeah. She would have said, well, they see you're coming if you're paying for that you know but that's how i feel it's not about anything and this word meditation is very off-putting yes do you think in a way extending the cookery analogy yes it's off-putting when people say this is how you must do meditation and you must download this app and someone needs to be talking you through these complicated principles in the same way food can also be off-putting when it sort of foams and

chicken moose in the towers yes it's quite intimidating it is the analogy is a very good one so you have to believe because i'm saying you have to believe that if you sit down quietly every day in your life, your capacity for the depth of yourself, to discover the depth of yourself and your capacity is amazing. And you don't need a sous vide machine. It's not overnight. Yeah, you don't need a sous vide. Oh God, no one needs that. I call that toys for the boys yes it's difficult to really explain how simple it is and i can only communicate what happened to me i knew when i went to meditation things what my teeming mind is never going to be stilled never but it sometimes is now you go with the flow one day you might be thinking really deeply about the world or about something.

And another day you might be sitting there thinking, what you've got to go and get at the supermarket. It doesn't matter. The final thing that I want to say about You Matter and the other thing that stuck with me is that you described Pharrell Williams as one of your favourite musicians. Yes. Oh, I love him.

Do you? What do you love about him? Which are your favourite tracks? Well, obviously, Happy. Yeah. We have it at the football club sometimes when we've won. We play it over the loudspeakers. And I like Marilyn Monroe. I love that one. Oh, my gosh. You're just so delightfully unexpected. It's a joy. Let's get on to your failures.

Your first failure is failing the 11+. Yeah. Gosh, you're just so delightfully unexpected. It's a joy. Let's get on to your failures. Your first failure is failing the 11 plus. Yeah. In those days, my parents were so anxious for me to do well at school. They really wanted me to do well at school and I didn't do well at school. So when I failed the 11 plus, it is quite a stark failure. There's the grammar school over there and all the clever kids going over there and all the others are just like left behind. And I was very, very deeply upset about it. And in those days, if you worked hard at school and you did well, then you could become a secretary.

I don't want to denigrate secretaries but I mean now you have PAs it's all a different thing but then if a woman was a secretary that was like the highest she could be it's hard to imagine isn't it it's really hard to imagine so my headmistress said to me if you'd worked a bit harder you could have been a secretary but I think now looking back what a positive thing it was because one thing it taught me if you'd worked a bit harder you could have been a secretary but I think now looking back what a positive thing it was because one thing it taught me is you don't get anything in life if you don't work hard and I didn't so if you want something you really have to be single-minded you have to work hard for it and the other thing is that thank god I wasn't a secretary yeah you

were forced in a way to think differently because of the failure. So what do I want to be? And I think that negativity like that and failure very often turns out to be a strengthening thing, a thing that is positive. So I don't think failure matters one jot. Tell me a bit about child Delia and what you were like at 11 before you sat the 11 plus. Well, certainly the being silent and still, I was taught by my mother because not consciously,

but she just put me to bed too early. So I always had this time between going to bed and actually going to sleep. So I got used to this sort of thinking time. So sometimes I got sent to my room because I'd been naughty and it was great, you know. But I was this failure. You could go for another exam which got you into what was called a technical school then. I failed that. And then my parents didn't know what to do with me at 16. And they sent me to a secretarial college so I could learn to type and do shorthand. And they rang them up one day

and said, can you take her away? She's not ever going to do it. That's actually your second failure. So before I come on to that, were you an only child? No, I was an only child till the age of eight. And then I had a baby brother. What was that like? Wonderful. It's what I wanted. Every birthday, I said, I want a baby brother. And finally he came. He came, yeah. And you say then that when you were naughty, you were sent to your room. So were you pretty naughty?

I wouldn't say badly, but I was pretty hopeless. Do you think you were hopeless or do you think you were rebellious? I think, yeah, there was a bit of rebellion in there. But my parents were very, very strict. Okay. And I think that sometimes getting to school was an escape from that. And maybe that's why I was naughty at school. Yeah.

So do you remember where you were when you found out you'd failed the 11 plus? I was in school. Yeah. And I had to go back and tell my parents. Isn't it extraordinary how things that happen at that age can haunt us still? Well, it doesn't really because I think it was you know the best thing really I also sat the 11 plus because I grew up in Northern Ireland but they still had it there when I was young and I remember how unbelievably crucial it felt it is yeah I remember a neighbor

of my parents saying it's the most important exam you'll ever sit which is quite something to say to an 11 year old and in many ways as you say that was correct because it really felt like it was going to define your life chances after that. Peyton it's happening we're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time.

So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides.

Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History,

a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. So I was very interested to read about something you said on insecurity in an interview with the times and your quote was if you talk to my husband he'll tell you I'm very very insecure but a lot of people are I saw an article about Paul McCartney who said I still don't think I've achieved yes he did he did

he doesn't feel it inside it doesn't matter how much or what success you have and we all know my goodness we're all on the floor bowing down at paul mccartney do you think that sense of insecurity started when you were a child probably but you know when i first got married oh god i must have been such a pain i just wanted reassurance all the time is this all right is that okay have i done this all right and for a long time i always had to ask people before I could sort of make a decision what did other people think and has that gone now or do you still have it okay oh teach me your ways when does it go give us hope well when you find that depth inside you it's very natural what I say and I hope it's true, that there isn't anything in my book that isn't common sense. It's just common sense, really,

because each human being is so different. And I went through all the ways we're different, and I went through the ultimate is the DNA. How can it be? In all these millions and millions of years, no two humans are ever the same. Yeah. I mean, that must mean something, doesn can it be? In all these millions and millions of years, no two humans are ever the same. Yeah. I mean, that must mean something, doesn't it? Yes. And talking of individuality and human beings and genetics and what we inherit, you've mentioned your mother, and I know that she was

a really formative influence on you. And I know that your parents separated when you were young. on you and I know that your parents separated when you were young what kind of influence did your father have on you not very much at all because he left home so it was then what happens to millions of families and then you see your father at certain times and that's it really how old were you when that happened 15 that's. That's tough. Yeah, no, it was. It was very, very tough. And don't anyone ever tell me that it doesn't affect the children. It sure does. I'm sorry.

I think it affected my brother more than me. And that interview you read in The Times, you know, with... Andrew Billen. Andrew. He shared with me that his wife had happened to his wife and it was still there it's always there I don't want to pry too much no more generally speaking do you think that's because there's a sense that a child internalizes their parents putting up as their fault no I never thought that but I do think and I didn't really think it I never really thought it but it's a rejection you know your father didn't love you

enough to want to be in the same house as you it's a rejection but again I think all these things somehow they work around and you get stronger yes more self-reliant yes yeah so moving on to your second failure which you gave us a trailer for, your second failure is that you went to secretarial college and then your parents were asked to take you away, which sounds deliciously intriguing. So how old were you when you went to secretarial college? About 16. And so what happened then was they thought that because academically, you know, I wasn't really going to be doing anything much, that maybe if I went to do something with my hands. So they thought maybe being a hairdresser. And at the time, you could be an apprentice hairdresser in a very smart London salon if your parents paid for you to go there. I think it might have

been 50 pounds then, but that was a lot then. And my parents didn't have 50 pounds, so my grandfather paid the 50 pounds. And I went to this amazingly wonderful hairdressing salon in London and did a hairdressing apprenticeship. And with a wonderful group of people, there were two of us there that weren't Jewish. And so all my life, I'd grown up in the London suburbs. I didn't know really what Jewish was. And there was this incredible, wonderful group of people and I got invited back to their homes and it was just a wonderful experience it feels like your world was expanding yes and is that when you came across the trademark Delia Smith haircut which is this incredibly chic no I didn't know about that when did you first cut

your hair the way that it is now and the way that everyone oh it's always been a bit boring all my life it's not boring it's so chic it's always been a bit boring all my life it's not boring it's so chic it's like Audrey Hepburn and Roman Holiday I can't believe that I can't believe that that's because you're insecure rooting back to your childhood yeah you must believe it well I don't know about that really the other thing I liked about that period was the clients were people who you served yes so I really enjoyed kind of looking after them that's interesting yeah it's what comes out of you naturally you don't know what you are do you really and these things bring it out but I quite enjoyed that sort of looking after people and making them happy yeah. So I would learn how to do

shampoo really well. Yeah. They always went under the hairdryer then. And I would say, what kind of magazines do you like? Do you like this kind of magazine? And all those little things. And I used to get enormous tips. So I used to earn extra extra money that's so interesting because that makes me think you're a very good host which obviously connects to yeah cooking yeah and it also connects to that fundamental idea that you've expressed in you matter and yeah during this interview of what brings us together being more important than what sets us apart so there's this sort of thread running through thread yeah so hairdressing and then Secretarial College was before or after? Before.

Right, but what happened for you to fail so conspicuously at Secretarial College that you were asked to leave? I just was the same as I was at school, not paying attention, not working hard enough. Boring, it was so boring. Do you remember anything of the shorthand that you were taught or the touch typing? No, none of it.

When I got a computer in order to write, for years I wrote all my books by hand. Did you? Because I couldn't spell. So there was no point in me trying to write because I couldn't spell and I couldn't punctuate and didn't have any English. So once the computer came along, I had to learn how to type because it wouldn't matter about my spelling and all of that. So I did an Apple typing course. So after that, you did your stint as a hairdresser. Yeah. And then your third failure is actually that you wanted to be an air hostess. But that didn't work out either. So just give us a sense. At this

stage, you're in your late teenage years. Yeah. Right. And so I wanted to be an air hostess but that didn't work out either so just give us a sense at this stage you're in your late teenage years yeah right and so I wanted to be an air hostess because I wanted to travel I really thought it would be lovely to be able to travel I went to three different airlines was interviewed but I didn't have a you had to have three or something o levels and b you had to have a foreign language okay so I did go and buy a linguophone course in German and I thought I'll learn that. But I didn't, that was boring, I didn't do it. So then I started just looking in newspapers

and there used to be, there isn't now, but you could do all kinds of jobs, just do something I fancy doing. And so what kind of jobs did you do? Well, I think one of the things that appealed to me was travel. And I went to work for a travel agency. And that was huge fun. Then I got my ambition because I wanted to travel.

And in the travel agency, there were couriers who went out to look after. It was called Rent-A-Villa. And there were couriers who went out to look after the clients in the villas. And one of the couriers said, if you want to come to Italy I can get you a job in a shop particularly as you've got hairdressing so they can put up in the window English hairdresser. So I did and he and his friend they were both gay and I left Victoria Station my mother came to see me off and she was worried about me going away with two blokes I said oh don't worry you know they're not you know and they were lovely and they took me to the shop and I stayed there for three months so now you'd be like 17 18 19 something like that I I was 20. It's very brave. I would say that about myself. What I used to say

was not much talent, but loads of guts. And I would say that's done me well. But now would you say lots of talent and an equal amount of guts? Yeah, maybe. But we each have our own thing that we're good at. And we each have things that we're absolutely rubbish at so that's how it goes isn't it and during that time when you were failing to be a secretary trying to be a hairdresser flying to Italy rejected from no I went on the train to it he went on a train to Italy sorry rejected from being an air hostess did you feel lost I don't know I just used to enjoy everything I did and then when I came back I just used to do any kind of job that was going you know I just ring up and get an interview and go and try something get bored with it and move on so it

sounds like you didn't have any fear that things wouldn't work out you just knew how to work and turn your hand to various things. No, I don't think I was confident. I can't explain it really. I think it was the guts, you know, I just had the guts, but I didn't have a lot of confidence. But I liked people, so anything to do with people was always good. So how did you get into cooking and writing? I had a boyfriend who, for the first time, I came from a family where I always had good food. We didn't have a lot of money, but we always had proper butter. And we didn't have holidays, but we had good food. And then I had this boyfriend and he started to take me out to restaurants,

which I hadn't had much experience of. Maybe the odd birthday my parents would take me. And we went to this little French restaurant, and it was just absolutely incredible. And the chef used to bring out the main course, and everything was French. So I started to get interested in cooking especially French cooking I used to ask him when he came out I said how do you make a salad dressing and he would tell me and I'd write it on the paper napkin so anyway one night we went there and the chef said if you really want to learn to cook we need a washer up oh I said he's a Saturday, if you can come in on a Saturday night. And that's how it started.

And what age were you then? 22, 23. And when you say you grew up with good food, was it your mother who cooked? Yes. And both my grandmothers. Right. One grandmother was from Yorkshire and the other one was Welsh. And what were some of your favourite things as a child to eat?

I didn't really get very interested in food. But I think one funny thing in our house was everything was homemade. My grandparents lived next door. So if I went next door, there were cake tins and you had one of this and one of that. Everything was homemade. And the biggest treat, not just for me, but even for my parents, would be to go to the baker's and buy something that wasn't homemade. You know, like a jam donut or something like that.

So jam donuts, and then we get to French salad dressings. And so how do all of these things come together? Well, I just got into the restaurant, saw what was going on, and thought, this is really wonderful. And that was the first time in my life I ever really wanted to work and do something. You felt like you found your flow. Yeah, I found it. Yeah. So from there, how do you become Delia Smith's cookery icon?

You start writing a column, don't you? Well, that's a long way down the line, but I can't go into it all because you wouldn't have the time. I'm fascinated, though. I can't go into it all because you wouldn't have the time. I'm fascinated though. It's so extraordinary that so many people I talk to have a clear idea from a relatively young age of what they want to do. And then they go out and execute it.

And they might fail and make mistakes along the way, but ultimately they have this sort of clearer goal. Whereas with you, the three failures you chose is interesting are all before you reached 20. And so it feels like for a lot of your younger life, you were just kind of ricocheting around trying to find things. Yeah. And then you strike on it.

And I think that's so good for people to hear, because I think a lot of people worry that if they don't have that clarity of vision, that they're falling behind. And they spend their 20s feeling very lost and like they're not competing well enough in this race to be human yeah I know I'd love to tell every kid in school don't worry good yes tell us that now why should we not worry don't worry because there are late developers there are all kinds of things but then out of that book there's an awful lot of things I'd like young people to know about that they don't.

Yes. So would you categorise yourself as a late developer? Probably, yes. OK, so the French vinaigrette happens. Yeah, the thing is that, to just cut a long story short, I thought suddenly, why is everything French? Then I used to open colour magazines and see beautiful dishes and then I used to open women's weekly magazines where they were doing sort of six things with

baked beans and I'm thinking there's something like here that's really missing and then I met a historian and he told me that it was because first we had an industrial revolution and people lost their land. And in France, they didn't. They went back to the land. And good cooking happens in the country where the ingredients are and things like that. So people in factories, they weren't cooking. Then you had two world wars where you had Russians and you didn't have any food. And then you get to the 50s and you've got these women's magazines,

you know, doing cornflake cakes. Yeah. And the art of cooking is handed down from mother to daughter, or it was. We'd have to think now, wouldn't we? Yeah. But it was handed down. So the daughter, and I certainly watched my grandmother and my mother cooking. So I saw cooking.

I knew what it was. I understood it. And he said, so we've been left, unlike the French, who kept it all going. We're down to square one. So that was it. I wanted to do something about it. That's fascinating. I've never thought of it like that.

So if you're not cheering a football club, I want to do something about it. That's fascinating. I've never thought of it like that. So if you're not cheering your football club, I want to do something about it. Yes. I just want to do something. I'm not very good at saying, well, that's it. You know, I can't. I'm not very good at that. I just want to do something.

And I think everybody does. I actually think at base, everybody wants to be making a contribution. Definitely. Just because this has come into my head, and I hope you don't think I'm overstepping. And if you do, just tell me and it's fine and we'll move on. For me, I'm a woman who doesn't have children. And that has been at great personal cost.

And I hope at some point, maybe I will be and there are different ways to be a parent yes but it's made it even more important for me personally to leave a contribution behind in other ways so that's why I write books that's why this podcast resonating has been so important to me yeah do you feel that do you feel similar no that hasn't affected me at all and I I often think now, on a Saturday, I've got 26,000 children at a football. But no, I don't share that particular, although I don't have children, it's never really bothered me. And I have great doubts about whether I would have been a good parent. I really have doubts about that. Why? I don't know, but I don about whether I would have been a good parent I really have doubts about

that why I don't know but I don't think I would have been so that isn't something that's ever been a problem and if I had your problem I would go and adopt an unwanted baby I wouldn't mind doing that now and maybe you should no no I know you say're 80, but I don't believe you for a second. No, no, no, no. Well, I need to ask you about your skincare regime, but I'll leave that until later in the podcast. There are loads of things I want to say about that. I suppose one of them is I personally think you would have been a great parent

because of that thing of wanting to serve and host and make people happy. And you'd certainly be a fantastic cook but secondly I suppose I want to thank you for being a pioneer before your time you are a fulfilled child-free woman oh yes definitely and there aren't that many of those in the public eye still yeah but that's just in the public eye isn't it that's not in reality yes that's just in the public eye yes like somebody who shall be nameless said that one of the things that missing was I because I hadn't had children I didn't understand how to feed children wow and you would say to that not at all my cookery course was in the school curriculum when they still had cooking before Mrs Thatcher took it out.

It reminds me, actually, you saying that, of when Theresa May was Prime Minister. And I think it was Andrea Leadsom said. Yeah. In fact, she was going up for leadership of the Tory party. Yeah. And Andrea Leadsom said something like, I don't know if I would trust a woman who doesn't have children to know what's good for the country. That's right. And that is a funny view. Isn't it an amazing view? Yes, it's an awful one.

You see, the lovely liberated times we live in, I mean, I don't even really now. I'm so much into this sort of human convergence and I don't really feel that blood relations are very important oh that's a great thing to hear tell us more about convergence well it's what the scientists are now saying is the world is converging and that people are coming together or animals or whatever there are trees now the underground can help other trees so it's sort of coming to a team that's why I've said in my book team yeah collaborative that's right I feel that I am related to you just as strongly as I'm related to my family I love that I do because we've all got the same blood there might be different types but we're

all the same we come from the same origins and I've learned to my cost that family doesn't mean friend yes not in any way shape or form I know people they're so guilty because it's family it's got to be family you know no it no, it hasn't. Yeah. So is friendship very important to you? Yes, it is. But again, I think friendship is there in every day, in every person. It's not just having complete close friends. It's about everybody being a friend. I'm talking idealistic.

It is idealistic, but it's true. Do you think anyone is born bad? No. idealistic but it's true do you think anyone is born bad no so i have studied this wonderful psychologist called maslow which you'll read about in my book we're all on an even playing field but it's how you're influenced also with this question of evil evil as a word didn't come in until, I think, Anglo-Saxon times. If you go back to Aramaic or Greek or Hebrew, there isn't such a word. So then it was badness, you know, or not good or an absence of good. So I hope I've achieved some way towards it in the book, getting rid of evil.

Getting rid of evil being something but I do think if psychologists and psychiatrists can tell us about what is bad in people and why it's bad in people but I'm convinced it's because a they might be mentally sick which is not their fault if they're mentally sick and we all know that or it can be because they're influenced and they don't learn how to escape egoism and egoism is everyone for himself so what we've got to do as a species is we've got to learn how to be united. Yes. Leave our individualism aside in one way whilst also acknowledging that we're unique and special. If we could teach children, as well as geography and history and all of that, if we could teach them how to relate to one another and how to behave and how not to be racist and not to be egoist we'd go a long way I was about to say that you matter is a very loving book and you do

talk about the importance of love I do as well yeah can I ask about love in your own life with your husband Michael Wynne-Jones because you met when he was your editor. Yeah. Again, these things are really very, very deep, aren't they? But I suppose it's just two people, really, I suppose, first and foremost, being friends. I mean, he was an editor, I was trying to be a writer. So we had that in common. And he was editing the daily mirror when you were writing yeah yeah and then you know we had the football in common but I just feel that human beings are connected that is the most important word that we don't know how connected we are do you have any tattoos do you know I have a tattoo here which reads only connect oh good so it's almost as if we planned that yes it is only connect i think you should get a tattoo because david dimbleby got one when he was 80 okay can i convince you no no no but it is that's it only connect it it is this

connection that we have to learn but i think that's where we're evolving I don't know who said it but I heard it on the radio that the 21st century was going to be the thinking century and I think it must be and I think we need to just go deeper into our origins and who we are because that is what ultimately will connect us very strongly. Yeah. You know. So what Teilhard says is if we take individuality out of it and put person. I'm not an individual, but I'm a person. And it's my person that is relating to other persons.

Yes. You know. And I've called it adhesive, but one sport writer calls it social glue. Yes and what did your husband think when you decided to write this book? Is he one of your early readers? Yes we were married he was the son of an Anglican clergyman who was not an atheist but an agnostic so all my life I've been running off to mass and doing all that and he is just standing on the sidelines because he's not interested so when I started to write this book because he's a writer and an editor every one I did I gave to him to read before I moved on to the next one yeah and

he would just read it and say okay great carry on, carry on. Yeah. And that's how I did the book. But, you know, it's a deeply personal thing. I don't know where he is. Yes. In it all. I just don't know. All I know is that he's a good man. He's a kind man and he's, you know.

That's all you can ask for, really. I think kindness is. But in the book, and I'm not sure which reflection it's in I think it's the last one the fundamental impulse of life is love there is a youtube thing you can watch and I've never seen such a powerful illustration of how human beings are connected never it's a man goes onto the street outside trump tower with a blindfold on and a big notice. And it says, I'm afraid. I'm afraid because I don't know where my country is.

And he talks about, you know, black people, women, LB, I can never remember all the names. Queer people, yes. It ends in a Q. LGBTQ plus. Yes, that's right. people yes ends in a q lgbtq plus yes that's right and he says i want you to know though that i trust you because he's got the blindfold on would you just come and shake my hand or give me a hug take a picture put a post because i want you to know that i trust you you watch this then you see all these people coming up, you know, passing,

and they go, what? And they're standing. They're reading it, and they're looking at him, and then they're talking to each other. And then they're looking again, and one by one they all go up, give him a hug. It's amazing. So I said in my book, I don't know how ever I was going to write this. How was I going to tell people this?

And there it was, demonstrated. Yes, vulnerability and connection and the source of all the good stuff. You said earlier, almost as a throwaway comment, that you couldn't write in your teenage years. Do you think you're a good writer now? I'm not sure. I don't know. I think what I am good is communicating yes I think a lot of what I've written has been edited out but I do think I'm

single-minded in wanting to reach people so I want to reach people so the words I'm using are because I want to reach them but I am interested I. I mean, if I had another life now, I'd like to study literature. Would you? Well, I think you're a terrific writer. And unpretentious, I think, is what we're reaching for. And that's such a gift to the rest of us. And I think that things get overwritten. What I'm trying to say is communication is trying to reach people.

Yes. And I think to reach them, it's got to be simple and direct. Yeah. Do you read cookery books now? Sometimes, yeah. Are some of them a bit overcomplicated? I think some of them are overcomplicated. Half of them, I don't know what the ingredients are.

I've never heard of it. You know, two tablespoons of what? It's so hard to get the ingredients. I don't know what the ingredients are. I've never heard of it. You know, two tablespoons of what? It's so hard to get the ingredients. I don't know what they are. But on the whole, I think it's really lazy. But I don't really look at it, so I can't honestly say. But I just see these plates, and they're always hanging on the wall, what I call overhead photography.

You know, they're always hanging on the wall, and there's all colour everywhere, and I'm thinking, oh, I don't want to eat that. Just give me an omelette. Yes you watch MasterChef no I spent all my time telling people you can do this and they're undoing it they're saying no you'll never be able to do this you know what I mean I would say it's so refreshing to talk about because it puts me off as well I'm like again I don't have the sous vide machine required. How could anybody possibly ever want a sous vide machine?

I know. And all these things you have to deconstruct, like a deconstructed bread and butter pudding. I'd rather have it constructed. I mean, it's what Elizabeth David called theatre on a plate. Yes. She had it in one. Yeah.

That's what it is. These little dots and foams and all that is theater I wanted to ask you about turning 80 yeah and what that was like well I maintain and I'm absolutely sure I'm right that whilst bodies age souls don't so that everybody is 19 inside I really believe that passionately I know it I've known old people I do feel it at the physical level but I don't feel it inside so I'm more or less doing all that I used to do except that now I get much more tired and if there was someone listening to this podcast who is hamstrung by a fear of failure, what would you say from your life experiences, from what you've written about in You Matter and from the perspective of being 80 now, what would you want to tell that person? If you could try and psych yourself up to not being afraid. And I think the way I've spelled it out in the book is I've given the recipe, if you like,

and I have to say, don't I, my recipes always work. Yes. I have to say that. I have to say that. I should have put it on the back of the book. I know it should be. My recipes always work. But if people are willing to spend that time, really know themselves, the fear goes, spend that time really know themselves the fear goes the fear of failing goes and then you're up for anything because you don't mind failing if you don't mind failing you can go anywhere you could do anything and people just don't want to appear to fail you know but I really honestly truly believe that's true are you grateful now that you failed your 11 plus? Yes. And it taught me so much that if you're going to do anything, you've got to really work hard. I didn't work hard at school.

I was, you know, my teacher said to my mother, the parents evening, are you Delia Smith's mother? She said she does nothing but play about all day. Delia Smith, we're very, very happy that you play about. We're very happy that you failed your 11 plus and you ended up being the icon that you are today. Thank you so, so much for doing me the honour of coming on How To Fail. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode and i hope you've really enjoyed this season of how to fail i just wanted to come on here to say something that is really really important to me which is that i strive to make how to Fail a really inclusive, safe, diverse and heartwarming space for all my listeners. And occasionally, unwittingly, I get that wrong and that really hurts me.

And so I really wanted to apologise, even though the listener who emailed me has not asked me to apologize because that's the kind of person they are. They're really lovely. But it's important for me to do so because I think some of my intention got lost in a couple of questions that I have asked guests about their sexual and gender identity. And it was pointed out to me by a really wonderful listener called David Darvasi. David, I hope I pronounced your surname correctly. I cannot tell you how much I appreciated your initial email, which was so thoughtful and compassionately expressed when it could so easily have been angry and demanding. And David has given me permission to quote from his email. He says, I'm reaching out because you asked a particular question from two separate guests and both the content and the tone of the conversation left me feeling othered and I wanted to share my experience. I'm a trans non-binary

therapist working with a lot of people who are trans and gender diverse. You asked two of your guests if they were born today would they change their pronouns and come out as genderqueer. I felt activated and dissociated as there was a moment in an otherwise safe podcast for me that made me think of all the other conversations in the media where trans and non-binary people are being talked and laughed about without them being present. Though I'm sure unintentionally the question still implies that being gender fluid is a sort of zeitgeist, a new generation's game. I'm 30 myself and I have writing and mental health mentors in my life who mean a lot to me. They also happen to be trans non-binary and their ages range between late 40s to early

60s. I also work with trans and gender fluid people who are older and can feel othered by how their identities are convoluted with fancy ideas and terms like, quote, woke culture and, quote, culture wars. Some media outlets would even go as far as to claim that, quote, cancel culture is somehow the invention of trans people. David, I totally get where you're coming from. And I am so, so sorry that I unintentionally made you feel like that. I completely agree that there should be no conflation with the idea that trans rights somehow are a modern trend, that there should be no sense that it is the younger generation's responsibility to educate the rest of us, and that I should have profoundly acknowledged the fact that trans people

and genderqueer people have existed since the dawn of time. So I just wanted to apologise for that and for anyone who felt similarly when they listened to those episodes. I was, I think, trying to get at whether the stultifying gender conformity and binary norms of a past age were so stifling for some individuals that the only way they could safely express some of who they were was to use the language of categorisation already available to them. David's position, which is that being trans or gender diverse pre-exists any language and should be understood almost beyond that remit. And that the idea of evolution or pioneering in some ways discredits and minimizes the reality of the genderqueer experience. So I also understand, thanks to David, how asking the question in and of itself can seem flippant which was the absolute opposite of my intention and I feel truly terrible that I ended up doing something potentially hurtful for any of you so I just wanted to say that and I wanted to thank David

once again for providing an object lesson in compassionate conversation. And it really is, for me, what this podcast is about. It's about connection and those moments of vulnerability and owning up when you might have got something wrong and being open to active listening and to changing your mind. So David, thank you very much. I'm getting emotional, but I'm really, to changing your mind. So David, thank you very much. I'm getting emotional, but I'm really, really grateful for listeners like you. Thank you for listening. And I hope you enjoy the two bonus episodes. That's right, two, two that are coming up in the following weeks. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.