How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S14, Ep6 How To Fail: Warsan Shire

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

TW // eating disordersI'm biased but oh my goodness, I love this guest and this episode SO much. Ahead of Refugee Week, which runs 20-26th June, it is my honour to welcome the poet Warsan Shire to the podcast. Warsan was born in Kenya to Somali parents. She migrated with her family to the UK at the age of one and her powerful poem Home - which opens with the line ‘no one leaves home unless home is the mouth of a shark - has become the unofficial anthem to raise awareness of the refugee crisis. She's also a frequent collaborator with Beyonce - her poems are featured in the singer's seminal visual album, Lemonade. Now, at the age of 33, Warsan’s first full length collection, Bless the Daughter Raised by a Voice in Her Head, has just been published to critical acclaim.Warsan joins me to talk about her failures in everything from breastfeeding to maths. We also talk about her eating disorder and her 'failure to control it'. We discuss what 'home' really means and what it is to be a refugee. And yes, we OBVIOUSLY talk about Beyonce.Warsan is a beautiful, powerful communicator and this interview made me think and understand better. I hope you like it as much as I do.--Warsan's poetry collection, Bless the Daughter Raised by a Voice in Her Head, is available to order here: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1119216/bless-the-daughter-raised-by-a-voice-in-her-head/9781784743703.html--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Warsan Shire: @warsanshiree Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Walshenshire is a poet, and like all great poets, her work cuts straight to the heart of human experience. Her words reflect our current world, but her poems also possess a timeless quality that ensures their power exists long after the reading itself has ended. Born in Kenya to Somali parents, Shia migrated with her family to the UK at the age of one. At 15, a poetry workshop at her local youth club changed her life. She started using poetry as a means of processing and reflecting her own experiences as a refugee, as a daughter, as an outsider. By 2013, she was the first Young People's Laureate for London.

Two years later, her powerful poem Home, which opens with the line, No one leaves home unless home is the mouth of a shark, went viral during a refugee crisis appeal. Then in 2016, she was asked by Beyonce to collaborate on the singer's seminal visual album, Lemonade. Shia has since gone on to work with Beyonce on her film Black is King and wrote a specially commissioned poem I Have Three Hearts to announce the singer's 2017 pregnancy with twins. Now at the age of 33 Shire's first full-length collection Bless the Daughter Raised by a Voice in Her Head has just been published to critical acclaim. Its themes include alienation,

motherhood and belonging, told both from her own perspective and in the voices of family members and friends. I guess I'm trying to therapise myself with poetry and have accidentally done that for other people as well, Shia has said. When I speak about myself, I like to be really honest so that people feel they're not the only one. Walson Shire, thank you for therapising me with your work and welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much for having me. We are blessed to have you. And I wanted to pick up on that final quote that I spoke, which is that idea that in speaking and in writing, you are giving voice to others as well. And very much voices who we don't normally hear from. Is that a guiding principle of your work?

No, I wouldn't say I have any particular guiding principles in my work. I know that the poetics are often asked, like, why do you write and who do you write for? But mainly I write for myself. I do see poetry and writing in general, and I always have seen it as like a lifeline, as a way to feel better, release a little bit of steam. And what I end up writing about is everything that's around me and so naturally those voices and those stories come in I love that answer to that question and thank you for just saying no because I think so many people feel like they have to agree with the premise and they absolutely don't and I love that because it just shows such an engagement with what I was actually asking thank you you give me a little bit of energy now I feel

awake oh good well how does it feel then given that your work is a kind of means of therapizing yourself and processing how does it feel when it's? Because then it takes on a life of its own. Do you slightly have to separate yourself from that process? Or does it feel good? No, it feels good. I like hiding in the poetry. I like knowing which references are specifically about my life. And I like knowing when I've hidden some secrets in there. And kind of like signals to those who have experienced it too they would kind of know and be like oh yeah I know what she's talking about but kind of hidden from everybody else but at the same time I think even if what the poem ends up being edited into doesn't so much have the same content it did when I first wrote it in the style of free write and maybe was feeling

something it's still cathartic even if the poem is no longer feels like it's about me it always starts off about me which sounds really right self-centered but it does start out very very personal and then it can turn political but the political and personal are really hard for me to separate anyway. Tell me about free writing and what that is. Essentially just a stream of consciousness where you give yourself maybe five, ten minutes and you just write anything that comes to you without editing, without thinking about it too much. I remember when I first tried it, I was just writing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah for a bit because it makes you feel quite self-conscious. And then for a while I was writing like random colors and then it just became natural. I think I personally, myself, always, when I was a child, always wanted one of those diaries with like a real lock on it.

But even then I felt like it would probably be broken into so I was always afraid of writing my real thoughts and my real like secrets in an open dear diary kind of way so I think I always use poetry as a way to you know so if my mum picked it up or somebody saw it I'd be like oh yeah it's just creative writing that's not my life story in those pages. That's such an arresting visual image and you use a form of it in one of your poems in your collection which I absolutely loved which is the poem bless this house which starts mother says there are locked rooms inside all women can you tell us a bit about that about why you chose that metaphor of locked rooms to represent

womanhood why did I the poems they arrived to me in like images or lines I really really love film cinema photography art sculpture music all of these I really utilize all these like beautiful pieces of art to inspire me and so that's why it feels so like you give and you take and everybody's kind of connected in that way because I I write to a lot of stimuli I write whilst listening to music I write whilst watching a film I used to write in cinema all the time so wow I started talking about cinema and I forgot what the question no but maybe is it that it starts with an image oh yeah that's it yes so it starts with an image for me and it will just come to me sometimes in a dream sometimes like in a phrase and if the image keeps like returning then

I think oh well then like it's a persistent knocking almost and I feel like okay I need to interrogate that and then so I start playing around with that idea I think with that particular poem the first line kind of just came to me and then I've always thought of the body as this kind of maze or structure or well it's basically what we live within it's a home essentially which is such a you know cliche but to think about it as in something that people want to break into something that people want to own something that people want to steal something people want to set on fire also people want to you know maybe populate a home or adorn a home, make it more beautiful. I just think of

homes. I think also like this feeling of homelessness or homesickness or houselessness or experiencing all of those experiences has made me kind of quite obsessed with basically like housing security in a way. That's something I'm still very anxious about and I think the safety of the human body and how fragile it is and how vulnerable it can be those two things link together for me and I think they're just like motifs that I constantly return to and think about because obviously there are so many similarities. And when you're talking about homelessness there and the fact that you experienced it, you experienced it when you were a child, didn't you?

Yes. And I wonder how it made you feel as a child having that experience because as adults, we can put words to that and say, I felt dislocated or, but as a child, can you remember the emotion that came attached to it? Oh, yeah. I remember seeing these letters come through. I could tell that they were important and scary as a child. I remember so clearly saying, like, have you guys read these letters?

What do you think? Which I think is kind of crazy because I was actually really young at the time but I remember feeling the anxiety of these letters are going kind of ignored and I feel like something bad is going to happen so when it finally did happen and we had to leave it was a traumatic experience because the police were involved and we kind of had like one hour to pack everything up and this was an entire house basically the neighbors were watching I remember feeling shame basically and that wasn't my first feeling of feeling less than I mean growing up it was a feeling that would come up all the time

which so many people can relate to but now feeling like okay now you're you don't even have somewhere to live I remember feeling really ashamed about that and I also remember asking a lot of questions and because the adults wanted to protect the children not having any answers and so therefore just feeling like in limbo first because we've moved from family's house to family's house and very much feeling like the unwanted stepchild kind of feeling. So I think a lot of actually my personality is born out of or some of the traits of my personality that I don't really appreciate, like a little bit of people pleasing or a little bit of like being a bit too considerate of other people came from feeling like a burden as a child and so constantly trying to make the least amount of noise or mess so you weren't a drain basically but then we also

felt like that in Britain in general so it was on so many levels for my mom it was really really traumatic to do that because she had to leave Somalia in that way. And then so now to have to leave the home that she lived in London and feel like she'd let down her children, that was something that she deeply struggled with too. And so for a long time, we just didn't talk about it. But those were the days where my imagination was born. What a powerful thing to say. And as you were talking, I just thought that I had this image of like a perpetually grateful guest like the fact that you constantly had to feel that you shouldn't have had to but I can imagine you internalizing that necessity almost that sort of survival necessity yeah to say please and thank you even to be in your own country like that's it must be such a difficult thing. Yeah, but the upside is that now that I have a home

of my own with my own family, I have two babies, I live with my husband and I take interior design so seriously. I want my home to be a place where when I go inside of it, I feel inspired, I feel relaxed, I feel safe. I feel nurtured. I want my children to feel comfortable to be able to roll around every single part. I want it to be bacteria free. I'm obsessed with making it a haven, basically, not only for myself, but also when I have visitors,

my dream is for them to have like a hotel-like experience. So those are, I, but don't come for too long. Can I come and stay? Don't come for too long. One to two days maximum. I can't really host for longer than that. You may get horrible treatment after that. Listen, anytime you have a lack of anything, ultimately just makes you so grateful when you do have it. So for me, I don't like the woe is me approach to life, but you have to acknowledge the hard, difficult things that you've gone through because they've shaped you in some way.

And sometimes they shape you in a way that's not so positive. So I try to just chase down all my demons and make something out of it. And that's actually what poetry has been able to do for me. And I'm so, so happy for, I'm so grateful. I can't believe it. It's exactly what this podcast has done for me and I'm so so happy for I'm so grateful I can't believe it it's exactly what this podcast has done for me as well so it's completely aligned with what I think about

failure and hardship that it ends up teaching you something so meaningful that can come out in really vulnerable courageous ways exactly as your poetry does before I get on your failures, I just want to ask you about arguably your most famous poem, Home, because sadly it has a particular resonance right now, yet again, given that we are talking at a time when a war is raging in Ukraine, which in and of itself, there's a complexity there because why are we more interested in refugees when they have white skin but I wanted to hear from you the story of how you came to write that poem because I believe you were in Italy is that right? Yes so it was the first time that I was invited to Italy to read some poems and I must have been like I don't know I need to stop saying ages because I don't remember dates at all which will

that will be linked to one of the failures that will come up okay so but anyway so I was in Italy I was invited over to read there and whilst I was there I was invited to meet basically Somali community that were living in Rome it was a very very very emotional trip it was a very, very, very emotional trip. It was very, very intense because just kind of left to like roam the streets like some kind of zombie and meet. And so the only way that you'd be able to find a way to survive is that you have to find somebody that looks like you. So what would happen is, like, if you're from the Middle East, you'd find people that look like you. But so if you're African, you're looking for people that look like you. For Somali refugees, they would come out and then they'd look for the next black face they can find. And then usually if that person isn't Somali, is from another part of Africa,

they'll still point you in the right direction. They'll ask you like what country and then they'll point you to where you should go. But not only Somali, like there was just all kinds of different refugees living there too, mainly African, but it was mainly Somali refugees, but they were living in the abandoned old Somali embassy in Rome. This building, which was, I'm sure, very beautiful in its heyday, is now like completely decrepit and dilapidated doesn't have any running water electricity it's completely cold the people are just huddled in there like babies are there elderly children obviously pregnant women the night before I came they told me that a young man had actually jumped from the roof to his death and because there's no hope you've come all this way to survive horror to come

to nothing and literally nothing as in nothing to eat nothing to drink nowhere to live you don't know anybody and you're completely traumatized and I think the part that people that have an experience I don't understand and now they seem to understand because they can see themselves in the plight of the what the Ukrainians are going through they now realize that oh it's not just fleeing there's also a human being there's also so much emotional psychological damage that comes along with this along with all the physical damage and I think that part is the part that people don't seem to have empathy for when it's darker skinned refugees. But that poem was born out of that evening when I got back from meeting with them

and I felt so guilty to be coming back to a hotel. And I felt like just this weird feeling of like, you know, like that film, Sliding Doors. It's just that simple, how easily I could have been born in a refugee camp and I would have been the exact same person you just would not be speaking to me and journalists would be coming from swanky hotels and meeting maybe you know I'll be stuck somewhere with a drought or famine that was always always always on my mind but to see it happen because obviously I think if you come from a community that have been able to flee the war there's survivor's guilt that

comes with that I mean it's your family that you've left behind it's a part of yourself that's left behind there so to me what happened to that part of myself was really really really upsetting basically to put it lightly and I I felt really, really angry. I felt angry. I felt angry being in Italy and thinking about how I've been invited over to read poems when Italy colonized Somalia. And then now Somalia is in a situation where Somali people need to come to Italy. And then it's like, we don't care.

where Somali people need to come to Italy and then it's like, we don't care. Basically, I became very, very angry whilst thinking about colonialism and imperialism and racism and all the isms. And I wrote that poem and yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Have you ever been back to that decrepit embassy? No, no, no.

But also I did want to say, because I just said that I was thinking about colonialism, imperialism. That's not actually accurate because I wasn't actually thinking about that. So I just wanted to be clear. Like I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote it. I was thinking about that in like the great context. But when I wrote it, I was thinking about, to be clear,

when I wrote Home and I was thinking about, to be clear, when I wrote Home, and I'd come back from the embassy, I just felt the overwhelming despair and hopelessness and sadness and loneliness. And I just felt like I had to write about it. And I had to make it clear what this experience actually is. I just wanted to put it in plain terms because it seems like people just didn't get it. It feels like they get it just a little tiny bit more. It's an extraordinary poem and thank you for writing it and for telling us that story. Let's get on to your failures. There is no link here, although maybe there will be because you've got such a poetic mind, there probably is. But your first failure, you mentioned you have two babies,

your first failure, and I'm so glad you're talking about it, is your failure self-perceived at breastfeeding. Tell us why you chose this one. Well, I come from a family of women whose breast milk comes to them in abundance. And so I thought I was going to have the same experience. And I was quite dumbfounded when I just wasn't able to produce anything. I'd just be pumping and pumping and pumping and nothing would be happening. But not only nothing would be happening, I was feeling these really weird feelings of self-loathing whenever I would try to feed. And I've always looked forward to breastfeeding.

I just thought it was just beautiful and such a lovely connection. And I was always obsessed with this idea of colostrum, which is the milk that comes in first. And just how natural it is for the baby to latch on. And I wanted to experience all of these things. I was, from a very young age, a little bit inappropriately maternal. So I really was looking forward to all of this. And then the milk didn't come through,

but also I was hating it. I genuinely hated it. Every single time it would latch, I would just think, oh, what's the point of life for one minute? And I didn't understand what was going on so I spoke to my doctor and I explained the way I felt and my doctor was like I don't know what you're talking about so I said okay let me go on the internet and I did I'm a bit of my friends

know that I'm a bit of an internet sleuth like if you've got a guy that you're interested in I can find him I just give me just his name and I'll do some deep. You're like my best friend. She does that. She has a deep dive. Yes, I can do a deep dive. I always do a deep dive every day into at least one serial killer. So I'm very, very good at that kind of stuff. So I thought I'm going to find out what is wrong here. And I figured it out and I got to the bottom of it and then I went back to my doctor and I said I know what's wrong with me I have dysphoric milk ejection reflex and she was like wow okay let me go check that out and she had to go do some research and what it is and I'd never heard of it until I experienced it and then went to go do research and all the women that were talking about it were talking about what is this feeling that I'm feeling and why is nobody talking about it so dysphoric milk ejection

reflex which is they say short demur is an abrupt emotional drop that occurs in some women just before milk release and continues for not more than a few minutes. The brief negative feelings range in severity from wistfulness to self-loathing and appear to have a psychological cause. So what is going on, right? So the best way I'll describe it is if you think about the worst, most embarrassing memory you have and when it would come to you in the middle of the night when it's happened 10 years ago and you cringe so badly it's that feeling every single time you try to feed your child but sometimes it's linked to this existential dread of like which is difficult to have when you're looking at a child you've created because you're thinking what's the point of life when you've just given birth to life so straight straight away, I stopped. I completely stopped.

It took me one week to find that out. After that, I let the milk dry out, which by the way, is very painful that nobody really talks about either. And then I went back to living a happy life. This is fascinating because I've never heard of it before as a condition, which is why it's so important you're talking about it.

Did this happen with both your babies? It happened with the first and then it happened again with the second and how old were your children then when you made the decision to stop with the first one a week and with the second one I waited two weeks because for the first week it wasn't actually as bad and I thought oh my god maybe I don't have it this time but then it reared its little ugly head didn't it so wow so you said there when you were describing what this condition is that it passes within a few minutes so can it exist completely separately from any other symptoms of postnatal depression completely that's fascinating and awful for you to have experienced

it, but well done for your internet sleuthing. Like talk about an online medical consultation. I just call Wolfman, I'll be fine. No, I was so happy when I found it. You know, I think it could have easily developed into stronger feelings and led to post-natal depression because I was wondering like, am I a bad person? That was what was coming to my head. And you're exhausted to mix all of that together is a horrible, horrible recipe. And you said there that your phrase was inappropriately maternal from a young age. But for someone who had always clearly desired to be a mother and the concept of motherhood was so important to you how much judgment did you attach to that decision you made to stop breastfeeding or how much judgment

did other people have around it you know the first time was much harder and I actually ended up speaking to a social worker about it and she just basically said to me listen it was really really helpful for me if I don't know what to do I would love for somebody to step in and she just basically said to me listen it was really really helpful for me if I don't know what to do I would love for somebody to step in and tell me basically so I just was at her mercy and she just said listen you need to stop shaming yourself your child needs a happy mother and formula exists for a reason so relax because at that time when I was speaking to her I didn't know what was wrong with me but I also knew that I just couldn't produce milk. So she was just making it clear that it doesn't matter how big your breasts are or what your mother did or what the women in your family did.

Some women just won't be able to produce milk. And that's something that we need to accept. So the first time I did feel like, you know, just like when people would ask, are you giving formula? But by the time my second was born which is only a year in between so by the time I by the time my second was born I knew what was wrong I didn't care and also the people around me are very supportive I mean I didn't have anybody ask me anything about that and just to reassure anyone listening right now who might be going through, and I've had so many friends struggle with this as well, where they feel like they have to carry

on through the pain and the mental distress that breastfeeding sometimes causes them. They feel they have to carry on for the benefit of the child. How old are your children now? And are they doing really well? Oh they are wonderful my eldest son is about to turn three and he is the biggest fan of red hot chili peppers there is there's under the age of five I would say oh he's really obsessed with I mean the band or the band the band the band that's amazing a little bit inappropriate again, but he just really decided to go all out California, which is embarrassing for me. I would have been,

why couldn't he be obsessed with Oasis? Anyway, moving on. My eldest, a fantastic little boy, completely healthy, weight always, is doing good, mashallah, alhamdulillah. And my youngest is nine months and he's still on the formula.'s a formula baby but you just have to find the right formula for them as well and please don't be ashamed there's so much more

important things to be worried about I mean as long as your baby is fed that's all that matters and before I move on to your second failure I'm interested in whether you think this particular failure taught you something about managing the gap between expectation and reality. Because there's a lot of semi-Buddhist thinking that is about managing expectation being the secret to happiness and contentment. Because if you have low expectations or realistic expectations, then generally life turns out according to plan but I wonder if it's taught you anything about that yourself about having more realistic expectations of yourself oh yes definitely for a really long time actually even before that and I decided that I remember actually I went to all girls school called John Kelly Girls Technology

College back in the day in Neesden Northwest Northwest London. But now it's called Crest Academy. So I remember a teacher had this little poster on the door and it said, expect nothing and anything because it's a bonus. And when I read that, I was like, oh my God. It was like a meme before meme. I was like so inspirational. So that was the first time that that kind of went into my head and I really, really internalized it.

So I have this motto in life in general, which really helps me deal with any feelings of rejection or disappointment. And it actually truly works. So I haven't felt rejection or disappointment on a real big level for a really long time. And even like when it comes to gender disappointment, because I always thought I was going to have girls, but I have two boys. And so that even helped me with that, where I just felt so grateful without wondering, how am I going to raise boys? I don't know anything about them, but I'm having a wonderful time anyway. So this might not work for everybody, but I'm just going to be honest. So if I'm running late for a flight, and usually you'd be horrified at that fact. In my head, I'll say to myself, you know what?

If I'm able to catch this flight, then it was meant to be. And I will be taken somewhere healthy, somewhere fantastic, tropical, beautiful. Well, wherever I'm going, basically, I'll have the best time. But if I miss it and I was supposed to miss it, then thank you, God, because I was going to die a horrific death if I got on that plane. So there's no disappointment there because the second I get there, it's already not in my hands. It's in the hands of whether I was going to live or die. So I will basically every day, that's how I make my decision. I love it.

I so relate. I think that's such a brilliant way of putting it I'm a massive believer in constructive pessimism that idea that if you think the worst and you acclimatize yourself with the worst possible outcome and then it doesn't happen like result well that's my lifestyle I didn't even know it had a name it's brilliant the only reason why I love horror so much is to know what to do if I ever find myself in those situations. I'm prepared. We were talking there about how important it is to feed your babies.

And it brings us on to your second failure. Again, something I'm really honoured that you're choosing to talk about. And in your words, it's your failure to control your eating disorder. Orson, tell us about that. Yeah, so I developed an eating disorder when I was probably about 14. It was by accident. Very quickly, I started abusing diet pills, abusing diet pills, laxatives, slimming teas. I started abusing exercise. I would take everything to the extreme. And then I found out something called bulimia by accident. I came across it, as you do. And it completely changed my life. It turned me into a little monster. Those were the most manipulative years of my life.

I think everybody around me at the time knew what I was doing because it was my complete obsession to binge and purge. Not even necessarily binging, just purging. It got to a point where if I would eat a salad, I just couldn't keep the salad inside of me. If I would eat a salad, I just couldn't keep the salad inside of me. I would be sitting there just like people are speaking and I'd just be itching, just thinking like if I don't get the salad out of me, I'm going to die. So it wasn't even about weight anymore. It was just a sense of trying to control everything. There's a disappointment in everything we're talking about. That's just another way of me trying to control things. I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder as a teenager but before that my eating disorder

came first and I think all of these things are just connected interwoven so yeah so I struggled really hard with exercise abuse and bulimia and I would starve myself and I would go on every single diet there was. And this went on from the age of 13 to 21, where one day, and at this point, like my teeth were quite damaged from like acid erosion, the enamel. And I was really finding it difficult to actually keep any food down because it'd been so many years by then. And I had really bad ulcers. I was just really weak walking around. But the thing is, I was never, never thin. All of that. And I was never, ever thin. So people just realized I just slimmed down a little bit. So I got all the compliments you can imagine. I didn't look emaciated. So everybody just kept giving me all these compliments. My mom, my family,

my boyfriend, friends, everybody. This is the best you've ever looked, which was positive reinforcement to just keep going. I was like, now I can't stop. Now I have to look like this. But guess what? I'm not actually eating anything. So how would I even like I'm genuinely not eating anything. Some days I would just eat one apple and then try to purge that. I figured out all these ridiculous systems. It was just my whole life. I remember going to the cinema and then in the middle of the cinema,

going to the bathroom. I couldn't watch a film. I couldn't listen to a song. It took over every single part of my life. And I remember feeling so desperate and just wishing I could just stop. And if I could stop, I would never, ever do it ever again. I knew that like I was completely mentally ill when it came to that.

It took over every single thing. And I had to lie about everything all the time. And I carried a lot of shame. And so I was very angry. Anyway, one day, I went on a holiday to Morocco with a few old friends. And we went to a Moroccan hammam which is how would you describe that like a bathhouse or yes a Moroccan bathhouse and there's amazing women there who work there and they show you like how which soaps to use and how to scrub and if you want help they'll really scrub you down as well but anyway I was really, really self-conscious as a Muslim country and African country. And I'm seeing all these women just walk around basically completely nude, so comfortable. And that day changed my life. I just stopped. That's the day that I stopped. And I just didn't

want to do it anymore. Hearing you talk, I'm struck by so many things. One is your level of insight. One is your bravery in talking about this. And one is your sense of humor, which if I were a cod psychologist, which I'm not, I might say is a sort of defense mechanism. has made tears spring up in my eyes. That's just such a beautiful place to have come to after eight years of this horror of, it sounds like, I mean, I know that one of the themes of this conversation has been home. It feels like you weren't at home in your own body. Would that be a fair thing to say? Oh, absolutely.

I was completely disconnected. I would disassociate from, I don't even remember most of those years, but I know that that's what I was completely disconnected. I would disassociate from, I don't even remember most of those years, but I know that that's what I was doing. And you mentioned earlier on that survivor's guilt that you feel that I guess you've almost inherited like generations upon generations. And that survivor's guilt that you feel for having made it out of a very dangerous situation in Somalia. But there's a poem in your collection called Bless the Bulimic. And you write with your characteristic dark humor

about this. And you write these lines, forgive me my prayers to the God of thin women. Forgive me, please famine back home. That shame that you mentioned feeling how much of that was a part of feeling that you weren't quote-unquote making the most of your opportunities or that you had so much to be grateful for oh every second I was sure that I was going to be like going to hell because of how much food I was wasting. It's like guilt upon guilt upon guilt, decorated with a little bit of shame. It was really difficult. I mean, in general, food wastage, food shortage is horrific. In general, our environment, everything about it. I mean, there's not even no point me really going into it because I think you know what I'm talking about. So adding to that, the small amount of food that I would be eating, and then I'm also

purging that I just couldn't wrap my head around how selfish, how self-involved, how narcissistic, how vapid, how stupid in comparison, like how pathetic. That's really how I felt. Like my mother has survived all these things. My community goes through so much. The country that I come from has suffered so much. The continent that I come from is perpetually suffering. The diaspora that I come from is struggling. And I am worried about my weight. I just really, really, really struggled with that. I thought it made me a terrible person but now I understand that was just not well and what would you now say to you then if you could I would just say that it's gonna be okay yeah

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How much did you want to be other than your body during this phase of your life? That was an early, early phase. I remember really struggling with not understanding, like, why I didn't look like the kids on TV when I was very young. I just wanted to look like, especially the area that we moved to before we moved to Northwest London, when we first got to the UK when I was a year old, the first few years I went to a primary school that was really racist and it was predominantly white. And also I think they just never also met anybody like us. It was a religious thing. And it was a skin color thing. And it was a language thing. And it was a culture thing.

It was like every single part was just strange. And so therefore, I remember in primary school having this really interesting experience where I really wanted to wear a hijab because I saw my aunties wearing them with hijab as a headscarf. And I really, really wanted to wear hijabab because I saw my aunties wearing them where hijab is a headscarf and I really really wanted to wear hijab but I was only like six years old I had braids underneath and I begged my aunt please just let me wear it and so I wore it to school and then the teacher took me to the side and said to me are you being forced to wear this and I didn't really understand what was going on and she said to me just give it to me just take take off and give it to me. I didn't want to, but she made me take off. And I remember just thinking, but I love that. Like I want to look like everybody else. So I remember having just a lot of like these, what is now obviously like called microaggressions, but I remember having a lot of those experiences, but what it

did to me as a child, I just wanted to have long blonde hair and I wanted to have blue eyes and I wanted to, you know, all this ridiculous stuff. As soon as we moved to Northwest London, I no longer felt. But I remember that yearning. It wasn't about whiteness. It was about what it meant to be stable. It was what it meant to assimilate and be accepted and to be celebrated and to not be seen as weird or strange or other or any of those things. I just wanted so badly, like all children want to. And actually, most humans want to. I just wanted to belong.

to belong but I had a really early wake-up call at around the age of like eight or nine where I just really started thinking about identity in a more solid way but that poem for me does come from this childish wanting to just be somebody else I mean just think about the tropes in media of like the cheerleader it was more American than anything else by the way. Like it wasn't to be white in Britain. It was to be white in America, specifically maybe Florida, near Disneyland or Disney World. And Dawson's Creek. You're a Dawson's Creek fan, I know. All of that, yeah.

But it was just wanting to be separate from yourself and disconnect from yourself that later, if goes unchecked, turns into real self-loathing. You mentioned the wake-up call when you were eight. What was that? Well, I had a few wake-up calls, but the one that happened when I was eight years old is that I was listening to my uncle speak about... He wasn't talking to me,

but I love to listen in into the adults' conversation, but he was talking about his journey, walking from Somalia and going through different countries and how he was actually walking through Russia and he was attacked by, he said a polar bear. And I remember he pulled up his trousers, like his leg was like it healed, but it looked like a shark had bitten him or something when he started sharing that story because he showed it at first they were

like oh shut up like you're lying kind of thing and he showed his leg and he told the story and then the adults started sharing more and more stories and I remember just being completely enamored and then it became like all the tv shows I was watching and the magazine covers and blah, blah. I realized like the real stars were like inside this house, that there was just these really formidable characters and that there was this inner lives that was so rich and so vibrant. He became like a hero to me. I felt like I was watching like Jumanji, but in the house. house or and then so this whole I what came about is I always connected everything I watched to what was going on in my house and the stories I heard and I would mix them up and make stories out of them and I think my poetry is not that far off from there but I would say the big wake-up call

that happened for me was around the first day of school it was the first day of school in this area in North London before we moved to Northwest London. And I was standing in the line and the little boy before me turned around and he said to me, black girl. And for whatever reason, I thought that that was the worst thing I'd ever heard in my life. I'd never heard that phrase before. I didn't know what was going on, but I just understood that he was saying that me and him were different and I just didn't want that.

And so I started crying, but my father had just walked away. So I called him back because he was dropping us off for school and called him back and he was like, what's wrong? And I told him that, it's a little boy.

He just said to me, black girl. And then my dad was like, yeah, you are, you're black. And then he dad was like yeah you are you're black and then he just walked away and I remember just it sobered me up very quickly and I was just like oh my god I guess I am that and from then on I knew exactly what I was and that was really really really important because if my dad wasn't there I probably would have said no I'm not and then I don't know what that would have pushed me towards or if somebody else would have come to me and said to me like something like yeah you're black but I don't know you know don't worry like it's okay yeah like something to yeah

be ashamed now you're now you're giving me a complex so what he did was he just made me feel so grounded in it's a fact you are not to be offended by it I won't console you and be proud of it but also work it out for yourself and did I through books wow amazing we started off talking about your eating disorder and I suppose I wanted to ask how you are now because I know that for many people, it takes years and years of all kinds of therapy to be able to learn to live alongside it, but it might not be something that ever leaves you. But it sounds for you as if that day in the Haman really was a watershed. So how are you now? Well, that day empowered me to be able to do it but I would say the thoughts

never go away I mean it's just like a constant in life I mean it's just something that I have to check every day I have a lot of intrusive thoughts around it I have relapsed and I just have to keep talking myself out of it basically but I'm not as bad as I was and I'm just gonna have to just keep working at it for the rest of my life. Awesome thank you so so much because I truly believe that as well as talking yourself out of it talking about it and talking openly about it is such a generous act for other people because I believe that part of what fuels disordered eating is a sense of shame and the antidote to shame is openness so thank you for your courage in talking about that as one of your failures of course thank you it's really important for me to talk about

this and talk about it openly because I was looking for somebody that was talking about it openly when I was struggling with it and the second that you find someone you just feel so much better so I hope this can make anybody feel a little bit better and know that you know you can get a hold of it and it doesn't make you who you are it's just something you're struggling with and everybody's struggling with something. Thank you. Your final failure is quite a step change because it is your failure in maths. Now, you wrote it to me as failing in math because you live in LA now, which is a very LA way of putting it. But for our English listeners, I'm going to call it maths. And I relate very hard to this one, but why did you choose it as one of your three failures does it actually affect your everyday life yes it does actually so I have I don't want to butcher the pronunciation but dyscalculia which is the lesson known basically dyslexia for maths

right and I just remember getting in so much trouble from teachers, parents, genuinely being like physically disciplined because I did not know how to do this. And I thought I was dumb my whole entire life. I genuinely would have such bad anxiety whenever it was maths class. Whenever anybody had to do the times table where you like stand up, I just couldn't do it. And the kids would laugh at me and I would feel so dumb. But then I would excel in English and so teachers were just very confused but nobody told me what it was I only found out much later but it affects me in all ways like I'm not good with directions I can never remember my left or right I can't really read a clock properly dates forget about it I never know what day it is. Birthdays,

I'll never remember. Honestly, I struggle with almost every single thing with numbers. There's no area that includes numbers that I don't have a problem with. And it's such a problem that like, for example, my maths GCSE, I just wrote my name on it because I couldn't answer one question. So I got, I think the grade is U but that's something that I now have completely made peace with but for a long time genuinely made me feel like the most stupid person in the world because I just kept failing over and over and over and over and over again and also with maths because it is one of those core subjects and you're taught you know unless you get mathsSE, you're never going to get a job. You need it as a building block.

It makes it seem so enormous. So I think it's really good for people to hear that you can fail it and become this extraordinary poet. But did poetry save you from feeling that you were a failure in a way? Because I'm guessing this was quite contemporaneous because your youth club poetry workshop you discovered at the age of 15. So you were sitting your GCSEs around then. So was it a way of making you feel like less of a failure? I was always good at spelling bees and reading in class. English was always my favourite subject, but with maths, it got drilled into you that you need to pass or you're not going to have a future. But listen, I really genuinely got by because of very, very graceful people. For example, when I was applying for A-levels with grades that are okay,

but with a complete fail in maths, it was city of westminster in madeville i wanted to study philosophy and sociology and english literature and english language and all this stuff that i'm interested in but the person was like okay i see that you have some really good grades in english and drama and arts and blah blah what happened to your math like you don't have a grade and i genuinely started crying and i remember just just thinking, oh, no. And he was such a nice young guy. He said to me, I'm just going to stamp this. And I'm going to let you, you know, I'm just going to stamp it for you like you have it.

But please make sure that you do math evening classes. Go to your local college near your house. And you have to get that math GCSE, basically. Anyway, that's the only reason. If it was somebody else, they could have said to me, I'm sorry, but you're not going to come to this school. And what would I have done? What would I have done? We wouldn't be speaking right now, that's the only reason if it was somebody else they could have said to me I'm sorry but you're not going to come to this school and what would I have done what would I wouldn't be speaking right now that's for sure because it wouldn't matter how many poetry workshops I would have went to because that's the only way that I then was able to go and study creative writing afterwards it's so sad that it's so narrow and that would have put a cap on my actual life and dreams just because I can't figure out maths.

I'm just so lucky that that person showed me kindness. I just got lucky. I kind of slipped through the cracks, really, because that really stopped a lot of people. Do you struggle with finances then? Yes, but my husband is very good. And also, I genuinely study financial literacy. I refuse to bury my head in the sand. But all it means is that when I'm talking to the text people, they find me so annoying because I'm like,

start from the beginning, please. I don't even, what is a number? What is it that we're even talking about? I am so desperate to ask you about this, but I'm also conscious that you get asked it all of the time. And my link is that one of my favorite Beyonce lyrics is the best revenge is your paper, but you obviously have collaborated with Beyonce. Are you sick of talking about it? Oh no, I could never be sick as Beyonce.

I mean, I feel this, I feel about her the way we all feel about her, which is that she is, she's the best. Yeah. She changed my life, so. Yeah. Well, first of all, Lemonade is not only one of my favourite albums of all time,

but I think one of the quintessential revolutionary music albums of all time. I just think it's incredible. And I read that working with Beyonce and the way she treated you was really good for your self-esteem, your belief in your intuition and your boundaries. Can you tell us why? a chance on me and when they have it's like completely changed my life there are three people Jacob Sam LaRose who is my editor who was the poet that I met when I was a teenager at that youth club that we were referencing he made all my dreams possible he gave me a peek into this like magical world where it was actually accessible to actually be a writer. I mean, he opened that up. And then he connected me to everybody. And he mentored me. And he edited me. And he, like, supported me and did everything. He was just like my poetry dad, basically, but not that much older than me.

And he introduced me to then to Nii. Nii Parks is the founder of Flip Tie and the publisher of Flip Tie. And he published me when nobody else would take a chance with me. He completely like was able to shape my career. And this book, Blessed Daughter Raised by a Voice in the Head is actually coming out with both Flip Tie and Penguin Random House Chateau Vintage. So that's really important to me. And the third person is Beyonce Giselle Knowles Carter which always makes me feel like I'm clearly like you know continued bouts of mental illness but this time with an amazing amazing like what a great fantasy to fall into but I really love Lemonade the album when I first heard it I couldn't believe what I was hearing it was absolutely gorgeous she's

amazing she really did make me feel empowered I remember when she contacted me and I felt very surreal and I couldn't believe it and I was in shock but also I just I did that prayer which is like if it's good for me then make it easy and if it's not good for me then keep it away and it was so easy and she respects me and she shows me like so much kindness and support and genuinely like cares about what I am saying and thinking I just felt like she really appreciated what I brought to it and I think for someone like me that made me feel empowered because it was coming from another black woman as well. But not only that, but because of all the years that we were homeless, it was Destiny's Child that I was listening to.

Up and down the lifts of the hostels and the hotels and just like playing her music in like bed and breakfast that we were staying at and carrying it in a Discman. And the first year that we were then able to get a house, the first CD that I got was Dangerously in Love by her. And so it felt like this was something the younger version of me really needed. Who would think that was going to happen? So when I had too much time on my hands, because we weren't in school and we would just be like having fun running around these big buildings and just hanging out with other kids very much lord of the flies when I was doing all of that I remember just thinking I wish I could be a writer and I'd be listening to Beyonce and then I just thought what's happening like it just felt so creepy in a good way and full circle and it gave me a lot of confidence I mean it sounds like it felt like home good segue it's so beautiful though and do you whatsapp Beyonce on a daily basis like do you

voice note each other no no what listen I'm not trying to stalk anybody okay but she is very very like really generous very kind very supportive very lovely and I think more people should learn from how a big artist can work with smaller artists with such integrity I think a lot of people can learn from that well all of those words I fundamentally believe can be applied to you Walsh and Shire you are so full of integrity so full of creative beauty and strength and this has honestly been one of my favorite episodes of all time and I can't thank you enough for coming on how to fail and opening your heart and bearing your soul. So thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. That's really kind. And I had a lovely time speaking with you. So thank you so much.

If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.