How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, BONUS EPISODE! How To Fail: Jo Elvin, the charity CEO on resilience, friendship fails and female anger

Episode Date: November 29, 2022

Today, in a special bonus episode, I have the joy of bringing you one of my favourite people - the broadcaster, journalist and now charity boss, Jo Elvin. She's an Australian powerhouse who I've been lucky enough to work with over several years (first when she was the editor of Glamour, then later when I became a columnist for You magazine under her reign) and now I just get to hang out with her as mates, which is even better.She joins me to talk about the end of Glamour as a print magazine and having to make her beloved staff redundant, a failure in friendship where she felt she let down someone whose child was very ill and a struggle to control her temper (but, I ask: does it really *have* to be controlled?!).--This episode is sponsored by Peloton – a fitness experience for your body and mind, so motivating and exhilarating that you’ll come back to it time and time again.Find out more by visiting https://www.onepeloton.co.uk/--If you enjoyed this episode, do consider donating to Jo's incredible charity, Children With Cancer UK www.childrenwithcancer.org.uk--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Jo Elvin @jo_elvin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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so motivating and exhilarating that you'll come back to it time and time again. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Jo Elvin is a multi-award-winning editor and broadcaster who's launched and helmed some of Britain's most successful magazines. She's also, fun fact, my former boss and a dear friend.

I first remember seeing her as a judge on one of my reality TV guilty pleasures, Great British Hairdresser, but she's best known by many as the woman who launched Glamour magazine in 2001 and who, as editor-in-chief, made it the biggest-selling glossy in Europe. Later, as a freelance feature writer myself, I would be lucky enough to be commissioned by her. Alongside print journalism,

Jo is a regular presenter on TV shows such as Lorraine and This Morning. In 2018, Jo became the editor of the Mail on Sunday's You magazine, and I was hired to be a columnist. As a boss, Jo is straight-talking, supportive, hilarious, and understanding exactly what she's like as a friend. We've both left You magazine since then, me to continue recording this podcast, and Jo to become the chief executive of the charity Children With Cancer UK. So I think we both know who's got the clearer moral conscience. Jo Alvin, charity chief, editor, broadcaster, and most importantly, wonderful friend.

Welcome to How To Fail. This is like, I just might burst into tears right right now I've never had an introduction like that I mean feel free feel free to burst into tears because it's good for the socials all right I'll do my best I'll do my best how are you oh I'm so good I'm so excited to have you here in our fabulous finally run out of celebrities and you had to you had to come knocking on my door I've, it's happened to me. I've actually been trying to get you for ages, but you're so busy. And actually, I wanted to ask you about that because you do do so many things. At the moment, I do, yeah.

How do you, I mean, do you take time to recover? How do you keep going? Since I started this new hybrid life in April where I run the charity, but they're allowing me to do it three days a week. And one of the reasons I wanted to do that is because I do still love media and I love, I wanted to have a portfolio career as they call it. So this year I've been throwing a lot, as they say at the wall and seeing what sticks, but I think that it's really beneficial for the charity if I still have a media profile. That's one of the reasons I think that it's really beneficial for the charity if I still have a

media profile. That's one of the reasons I think they hired me. But I have had a few moments this year where, you know, like a Thursday night at half past 12, when I'm writing some copy and thinking something's got to give here, this is ridiculous. But then I'm having a week like this week where I've got no writing commissions. So, think am I out of favor now so I don't know I'm not there was definitely a phase where I was working seven days a week but it's slightly calmed down a bit now that's freelance life isn't it that thing of always feeling defined as a person according to how many people want you to work for them yeah and it's so important to learn how to separate the two but so difficult it is difficult because I also even I mean and you will know this as a writer even at the time when you're sort of halfway through trying

to finish a piece and you think I can't write this I don't know how to write anything this is never going to get done this is not you know but even though you have those moments think why did I say yes to this when it's done you I love that achievement I love and I love seeing something I've done in print or online or on telly or on a podcast or whatever I love that so I'm addicted to that well talking about all the things that you're doing you're actually going to do something else on top of the things I've already mentioned because you're launching a new podcast I am because you know Elizabeth I think you and I both like talking about anything what you're talking about what you're referring to wow and this is just something that's fascinated me for a while and you will find this you've done a lot of celebrity profiles and in a well-rounded

profile that a magazine or a newspaper wants from you, you might ask one or two questions along the lines of, you know, oh, do you miss not being famous? Can you go out without wearing a disguise? Do you get mobbed? But I've never really spoken to people about what's really going on in their head and their relationship with it, their relationship with fame. I should have mentioned at the beginning it's called fame. So I've interviewed A-listers, people who are sort of what I'd say are fame adjacent, people who sort of, you know, live through other people's fame, or people who've had fame and lost it, or people who tried and didn't quite manage it. So I want this sort of well-rounded look at what it does to people there's been some research and

I wish I could remember the actual source so but there's that it actually completely changes the chemistry of a person's brain if they're famous you know I've spoken to people who slept walked through red carpets in their dreams and things like that which you know probably doesn't happen to an average person but that's the kind of thing that you live with when you're a celebrity. I just find it fascinating. That's so interesting. And also because so many of the people who are attracted to the idea of fame are people who seek others' approval because of some lack in themselves. And therefore, when they get the adulation of millions of people around the globe, it's actually quite dysfunctional because it still doesn't fill that hole, which needs to be filled with a sort of self-love.

Yeah. And you know, you do meet a lot of people as well who, sometimes I find it, it's a bit disingenuous, but you also do meet people who they wanted to act or they wanted to sing or they wanted to dance. And this just happens to be the by-product of that. Yeah. And they haven't really thought through what that's going to mean for their lives, but they still want to do their craft. So it is so interesting. And I'm hoping if it goes well, it will be one of many series

because I've got some fantastic celebs on this one. I'm very inspired by you, actually, because I feel like this, you know, you started it from scratch and you've built it into this enormous thing. And you've had some amazing people on there on how to fail as well as Joe Elvin. Including Joe Elvin. It's like, you've had your peak and now we're sort of like down, but you know, there must've been times where you thought, Oh, you know, is this worth it? But now you, people are clamoring to be on this podcast.

And that's kind of an inspiration. I know that you've met so many famous people. You used to organize and host the Glamour Women of the Year Awards, which was, as it says on the tin, an incredibly glamorous event. Who is the best famous person you've ever met and who's the worst? Because I know you're deliciously indiscreet. The best famous person, I mean, there's been lots of great ones, but at the Glamour Awards I would say my favourite favourite was by far Amy Schumer who, I don't know, it was the first time I think I've ever

had the experience of just feeling like I'd known somebody for years where normally that thing, it's so stressful, Elizabeth. I would look 25 if I hadn't done 15 years of organising the Glamour Awards, honestly. You still do. You still do. Sorry, I thought there was a pause there where I had to say. No, no, no, no, no, no.

I think that ship has sailed. And I'd had a dreadful afternoon, I wrote about it recently, where I got so stressed. I had terrible, terrible wind pains where I could barely stand up. And I was in agony until somebody said, listen, you're just going to have to go and lie on the ground with your legs in the air and wait till you fart. And that's, I mean, I just, I couldn't stand up. This is an unanticipated direction. I know, I'm sorry, but I I'm Australian it always goes there but so anyway

so I'm sitting next to Amy Schumer and I was saying to I was one of the very few people in the country at the moment at that time who knew who she was and I was like I have discovered you I have you know this is all your it's all down to me like joking she's all thank god thanks for you and I said I think our relationship is um sort of like long enough now for me to confess you she's like gone and I told her all about my wind pains and lying with my legs up in the air. And then she told me lots of indiscreet toilet things about her as well. And we had a laugh with her and her sister. So I loved her. The worst one was probably the first year we did the awards, 2004. And I was really nervous. I mean, I didn't know what it was going to be like and it was hard to get celebrities to that first one because they were like well let's see what it's like you know

so but David Schwimmer did come no don't tell me yeah he did I'm sorry but maybe you know what what I find with famous people as well most famous people I've met you have good days and bad days there's very few people that you meet where it's all bad days so this might have just been a bad day for David Schwimmer, but he was just, he was so hard to talk to. He clearly didn't, you know, it was one of those people, the first thing he asked me was, you know, what time does it finish? You know, one of those sorts of situations.

And actually somebody on his other side at one point said to him, mate, are you going to give in this conversation or what? So I said, okay, so it's not just me really struggling here. So then I did that thing where I just started talking to him about friends and he just looked like he wanted to punch me in the face. You know, it was like, I don't want, it was awful. And then a few days later, a top fashion designer said to me, oh my God, I was in a loo queue with David Schwimmer and I asked him for an autograph for my daughters and he said, no. It was just so, so yeah, sorry. I'm sure you're annoyed not and i actually have met a friend of his since

she said oh yeah he can be a bit awkward in in you know he doesn't really like he's social that about his fame you know so i don't want to be mean he's not that friendly ironically no he wasn't my friend oh and then of course the worst thing was in my husband was there my husband had to say hi david David, I'm Ross. And his face just fell. And Ross said, sorry. That is actually Jo's husband's name. One of the other enthusiasms that we share and actually how we properly bonded, I think, is because of our love of Peloton. Yes.

We were both, I feel, early adopters. Yeah. And I got one. I no way did I think I said to my husband all I want for my 50th birthday is a peloton a bike yeah because there are lots of different things that you can get now on peloton yeah yeah yeah but I wanted the bike in fact I don't think I think it was only the bike when I and no way did I think he would do that. And he did. And it was the best present I've ever had. What do you love about it? I love so many things about it.

I love that I can get up looking like hell and I don't have to get anywhere to exercise. And then I can sort of like do it all and then have a shower all in my own, you know, I could do it naked if I want, not that I do, don't worry. But there'll be a bit of chafing yeah there would be wouldn't there sort of like horrible sweat but I love the variety of it I love that I can really literally log my progress I love

beating much younger men than me on the leaderboard that's always a joy I'm impressed that you can do that I sometimes I can and you can see sometimes if i can see male california 30s and you can see hashtag bankers yeah yeah yeah and you can see he's thinking i can't be beaten by some bloody old woman in london and you can see and it becomes a race to the death so and i love the instructors and you and i bullied one of them into being our friend yes so basically joe and I started WhatsAppping each other, treating Peloton instructors like a young girl in the 60s would have treated the Beatles. Well, I wrote about it and said it's like we were fighting

over who gets to meet Harry Styles. And it was genuinely like that. So there are so many incredible instructors, and there are many in the UK. There's, well, we'll come to Leanne. There's Hannah Frankson, Sam Yeo, but we particularly love Leanne Hainsby's classes. And you're right.

You basically abused your position of power as editor of You Magazine. And why the hell not? To commission me to write about Peloton. Yeah. And to interview Leanne Hainsby. And you're right. And then we basically did force her to be our friend.

I did force her. And in fact, so much so that when my daughter had a dental emergency recently, it was Leanne who got me a great dentist. And the dentist, I was in the room with my daughter and the dentist said, oh, how do you know Leanne? And I said, oh, I bullied her into being my friend. And my daughter said, oh my God, you should have seen the texts I got the night she and Elizabeth went out with Leanne.

It was like, it's quite embarrassing.anne hi Leanne shout out to Leanne yeah we will get on to your failures in just a second but I have to talk to you about k-pop because this is another do you I didn't think do you know what that's so funny because I thought no way will Elizabeth let me indulge that I think it's a beautiful thing. It's a very unique obsession. I don't think it is. And I support your eccentricity in it. There are hundreds of millions of people. But there's not necessarily a woman of our age who is as obsessed.

That's not true either. Is it not true? No, it's not true. But I don't know how this happened to me. It is a midlife crisis. Okay. Yeah, I will, you know. What do you love about k-pop

oh god so many things the pretty men the music the fashion i don't like the girl groups and i don't mean to be you know a misogynist in that way but they're just not as interesting they're very very cookie cutter in what they wear and how they look. And I don't find the music as compelling as a couple. I only like, I only like two bands and I just find them. There's something as well about what those people go through to become K-pop stars. It's like some countries have an industry of gymnasts or, you know, Korea's industry is pop and it's grueling. And some of these guys have been together 10, 15 years in each other's pockets, 365 days a year.

And because of the way the system works, they're very much into showing you a lot of themselves on social media. They all seem to have television shows that showcase what they do. So they're very, very clever at making you feel like you really know who these people are so it's another it's fascinating it's another outlet like you know you and i we've calmed down a bit but we got a bit obsessed about the personalities of the peloton instructors so too is that the case with these k-pop men and they're so handsome i

know you disagree with me on that but I love them yeah I mean the ones that you show me pictures of aren't immediately attractive to me but I can see objectively they are attractive yeah and that it's just that the ones that you've shown me look quite young that's the only anyway let's move on let's move on but that is so interesting because I do think they they're about 30 just in case anyone's thinking... They've got amazing skin. Yeah, I mean, they're 30 and I'm a lot older than 30, but it's not like I'm looking at children that we just qualified.

Let's clarify that. In the 1950s, in the glory days of Hollywood, it was all about the studio system and it was all about the studio having control over how their stars were perceived, often to really sinister extents. And with K-pop, and to an extent with Peloton, I think it's so interesting that we're now in an era where we all long for disintermediated access to our celebrities. We want to know them as people

and we feel that we do. We feel that we genuinely get their authenticity it's very interesting it is true but there's also great swathes of those korean guys and girls lives that you don't know about they're very very careful with it i just want to say after you telling me what a niche thing it is my favorite k-pop star is currently on the cover of rolling stone magazine okay i stand corrected i stand corrected. Before we get onto your failures, I want to talk to you a bit about your charity. Yes. Because I think it's such a phenomenal thing that you chose to leave journalism,

which on the outside, at least, appears a very glamorous career. And it's a career with a great deal of power and influence. And you decided to do something for the moral good that is actually helping extremely ill children and their families. And I think that that's amazing. But I also wanted to ask you about the toll that it takes on you personally, and where you find your motivation to keep going, when you must be encountering such tragic stories on a daily basis. It's interesting, actually, because that was the

one thing that I had to think long and hard about before I took the job. You know, ironically, I'm sure I'm not alone in this, cancer is probably my biggest fear in life. I mean, it really is. It's like, it's so indiscriminate. It's so cruel. It affects so many of us, even if not directly. The reason I took the job was because this charity, Children with Cancer UK, it's nearly 35 years old. They've raised nearly 300 million pounds in that time. They have helped move the dial in terms of the survival rates for childhood cancer from something like 60% to 83%. So we're moving that needle through all the research that we're funding in a huge way. But nobody has really

heard about it. Nobody's heard about this charity, really. A lot of people say to me, oh, you know, and they get the name wrong when they talk to me about it and things. And I just think that there's so much untapped potential there for it to be an even bigger, more successful charity. There's a new chairman who's appointed me, his name's David Gibbs. And I think that he recognized that what I'm experienced in can really help them sort of like building profile, bringing on high profile ambassadors, modernizing the look and feel of it to get more corporate donors, which they don't have an amazing, a huge amount of at the moment. So I could see where my skills could help. And it just came along at a time where I was thinking, it's a big world out there. I'd love to see what else it is I can do before my time's done. So those things just married at the

same time. But in terms of your question, yeah, I was super worried about that. And the first time I met a young girl with an inoperable brain tumor, I was so nervous because I just didn't know how I would feel because I'm so scared of all of those things. But the more I do this job, and the office is right across the road from Great Ormond Street Hospital. So I see a lot of sick people all the time. And I see things like a little girl about eight years old with the tube in her nose and no hair, skipping down the road, joking with her dad. And I've met little Dottie, the girl I mentioned who has an inoperable brain tumor. I've met Eve who has a brain tumor at 12, 13 years old. And what, honestly, Elizabeth, these people and their

families are so graciously and stoically playing the hand they've been dealt. And it just makes you think, well, I've got no right to sit in the corner being frightened of it. They're getting on with it. And I want to be there for them. It might sound really hokey and cliched, but they're so inspiring. You just feel like it actually does the opposite of making me want to go and cry in a corner. It makes me really excited to try and help. That is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard. Thank you so much for saying that. Where can people donate? You can go to the website, childrenwithcancer.org.uk. You can Instagram me and I'll sort it out. But thank you. Thank you for saying that. Every penny helps. We fund research. We've got currently doing a new grant hall at the moment asking for applications. We've got huge plans for next year.

We are funding welfare projects, which I wish I could talk about one really exciting one at the moment that's really going to be a grassroots benefit for children and their families so it's all on the website what we do okay and I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well thank you so much and we'll also have your social media tags in there so don't you worry about that now it's time to take a quick break to thank our sponsor of this episode, Peloton, a fitness experience for your body and mind. It really is motivation that moves you. With Peloton, there's something for everyone. They've got yoga, running, cycling, meditation, cardio, Pilates, bar and boot camps. And I can personally speak to that. As many of you know, I have a Peloton bike and I always look forward to the various workouts.

And best of all, I can fit it into my own schedule. You can find classes that fit your mood and you can tap into motivation with thousands of live and on-demand classes. Push yourself further with live performance metrics on the bike, bike plus and tread. It's a community for encouragement, fitness that you'll love and stick with, an experience so fun and uplifting that you'll crave your workout, fresh new classes for you to choose from, all delivered by expert instructors backed by epic playlists featuring the hottest music and biggest moments in culture. It's curated variety, a welcoming community and classes you can enjoy at home, at the gym, outdoors, anywhere you choose to work out. Download the Peloton app

and try Peloton classes for yourself free. Start your 30-day free trial at onepeloton.co.uk forward slash app or visit the website onepeloton.co.uk. Bike, bike plus, tread and guide require internet connection and Peloton All Access membership. New app members only. £12.99 per month after trial unless cancelled. Cancel any time before free trial ends. Full terms at onepeloton.co.uk forward slash app. So thanks again to the sponsor of this episode, Peloton. Let's get on to your failures now. I was enjoying myself now. They're so intriguing.

I thought you were going to say there are so many. Well, there are so many well there are you gave me more than three which is a classic female thing to do but it's so intriguing for me because it's quite rare even as a close friend to have these kind of conversations yeah you know as a close friend i would never say when have you failed in your life so it's been really revealing for me so i thank you for your generosity the first one we're going to talk about is the time you fail to see the writing on the wall at Glamour magazine oh my god I know I can laugh about it now what so take us back because Glamour magazine what changed the game for magazines and so many of us read it it came in that new handy format size you just pop it in

your bag and it was huge and that's how many people will know you as well. What happened? The internet. Bloody internet. I know. It was so bad as well. It's like when you're a print magazine editor and you're looking around and noticing slowly over the months that nobody on the train is sitting there anymore reading a magazine. But then you think, well, I'm not either. That's when you really know. But yeah, we had an amazing run, Elizabeth, as you know. It was market leader almost straight out of the gates,

biggest magazine in Europe almost straight out of the gates. And that was fantastic for at least 10 years, maybe sort of 12, 13, more competition piled into the print sector. And then of course, you know, when Glamour launched, there were no such things as the iPad. I think Twitter came along five years after we launched Instagram after that. The world changed around print magazines. Everybody knows that. But what was really upsetting for me, I think, was that we still sold an amazing amount of magazines. We weren't selling the six to 700,000 a month we were at our peak, but even towards the end, we were selling three, 350,000. And, you know, people still sometimes say to me, but that's more than Vogue. But it's like,

it was always more than Vogue. You know, it was like, it was a huge magazine, but the criteria is different. So if a more niche magazine sells 150,000, everyone's excited. It's maybe getting advertising based on the fact that it is a niche market. If Glamour sold 350,000, there were crisis meetings about, you know, what went wrong. You were a victim of your own success in a way. I guess. You've become your own competitor. But the problem was the loss of advertising revenue more than the circulation there was just so many other ways that advertisers heads were turned you know youtubers influencers other titles there were just so many other ways that they could see you know they felt that their money was being more utilized

and so we went through many years before the final year of every few months, I would be asked to make a few people redundant, I'd be asked to cut my budgets, you know. What's that like? It's awful. Because as someone who's never been a boss in that way, I can't imagine how difficult it must be to let people go. It's absolutely horrendous. And you know what, even on the rare occasion where it's not a redundancy and I thought, do you know what, it's not working out and I need to straight up fire you. It's still,

even when you're thinking, oh God, this person really deserves not to have this job. It's horrendous. There's just no more awkward thing. And even when you are following with redundancies, there's a very, very rigid, strict legal process. But what that does is you have to speak to people in a very legalized form of language. So someone you've worked with for 10 years, suddenly you've got to have this robotic conversation. I can't describe how awful it is. What advice would you give someone who has to do that, who has to confront something uncomfortable?

What advice would you give someone who has to do that, who has to confront something uncomfortable? Do you I am not allowed to say actually in a few days, yeah, it's like, you know, I can't do it. So it's horrendous. And, you know, I had the same thing where when it happened to me at Glamour, when I was made redundant, and I've been really honest about the fact that I was made redundant, I'd been sitting next to my boss at the fashion shows in Paris for days on end beforehand, making small talk. And my PA, when I got back to London said, oh, the boss wants to see you. He hasn't had a chance to update you on a few things. And I thought, well, he has. I've been sitting next to him for hours at this and that show so then you immediately know you know it's stuff like that because because he couldn't sit and say oh by the way when we get back to London I'm firing you you know it was you

just can't do it is it humiliating I guess in some ways but I think that I was fired once before like properly just fired like we don't like you can you please go in 1998 and that was I was fired once before, like properly just fired, like, we don't like you, can you please go? In 1998. And that was, I was much younger and I was absolutely appalled and humiliated and embarrassed about that. I wasn't really humiliated in terms of glamour. I was more embarrassed that I hadn't seen what was coming. I knew that I was going to get made redundant at some point because I could see the maths, you know, my salary's not worth it anymore. I could see that but I had no idea that they were going to basically change it from a 12-month-a-year magazine to two months a year and make it all digital.

I didn't see any of that coming. I thought they would just cut and cut and cut and do the bare bones of the magazine or fold it. So I wasn't humiliated about that but I was embarrassed that I didn't really join the dots to see quite how seismic this was going to be and after it happened and the magazine the print magazine shut down how do you recover from something like that we could take us back to those months in the aftermath yeah it's interesting because this might sound really disingenuous, but the thing that traumatized me the most at the time was the day I had to

speak to the staff, the boss had come over and the, you know, the HR people had come over and made this announcement about, you know, this is what's happening to the business. Most of your jobs will be at risk, blah, blah, you know, all of that. And I had to address my team straight after that because it felt like the right thing to do. I couldn't stop crying. I couldn't stop. It was like, I couldn't get words out because, and you know, apologizing to people because you do feel like, oh, maybe if I'd worked harder, maybe if I'd made this decision earlier, maybe if I'd, you know, got that cover star, we would have had a stellar month. You know, you help but feel like you know you're the boss you feel like you had some bearing on it but I really I didn't stop trying to make it a well-rounded business we worked on the website I launched a bloody podcast you know we

did all I did I launched a beauty festival never stopped trying to make it more than a print magazine so that was the hardest thing for me was watching younger people who it was the first time anything like that had ever happened to them. And so they were shocked and they were scared. And I felt responsible for that. And that was really, that was horrible. How do you cope with it? I mean, I don't get the sense that you're someone who goes into therapy. Oh, yeah, I've had therapy.

I didn't go into it. Well, I went into therapy for a little while before that happened at Glamour because I felt like I was going mad I felt like I could tell that I was you know sort of like out of favor I could tell that horrible yeah gaslit yeah well you know I could tell that nobody really wanted to be associated internally with glamour anymore because it wasn't the big success that it used to be. And so I was asking, you know, am I all right here? And people sort of saying, yeah, no, no, it's fine. But then find, you know, like that thing where you realize there's a meeting that you haven't been invited to. And then another one.

So I started to feel really low in confidence and really bad about myself so I took myself to therapy um but at that point so when it happened it was like oh my god I'm not going mad you know I have been sort of like on the outs here I have been so it actually really helped in a way so can I ask you a slightly weird question? Were you bullied at school? Oh yeah. Wasn't everybody? Yes. Yeah. Well, I also think that if you grew up when we did, speaking personally,

I didn't categorize it as bullying for ages because it wasn't physical. Well, you're younger than me and it was the 80s. I mean, you know, the teenagers did not have anything to worry about in the 80s, Elizabeth, only nuclear war and you know i mean but then that was like you know what i mean it's like you know you're not depressed you're 14 yeah shut up yeah i also think and this is a completely untested theory that quite a few

journalists were bullied at school and seeing their name in print is a way of mitigating against that like feeling like you belong that's not well that that isn't why I bullying did lead me to print magazines but not for that reason it was because it was like I just found so much solace in the emotional features in the teenage magazines that I gravitated to and it was like okay so it's not just me who feels like this I really understood from a very early age what a companion a magazine could be. And that's why I fell in love with them. And I think that's why when I got my first job, it was on a teenage magazine. And I was just really good at writing those features because I'd lived them.

So going back to glamour and what happened there, I'm often asked about failure at work and how to cope with it. And I'm also someone who believes that all failure is data acquisition. And sometimes that data can be you're in the wrong environment, you're in the wrong work surroundings and maybe look for something else, which is easier said than done, which I completely acknowledge. But if failure is data acquisition, what data do you think you acquired from what happened with Glamour? It's a really good question. Because I'd been fired before, I genuinely thought that if it happened again, I'd be fine. Fine. I've done that. I've survived that. And this time I had a teenage daughter in the house. So I felt very strongly that I had to be a role model and I had to show her that shit happens and you

just carry on. So I kind of, I exhausted myself with busying myself with weird activities. So I, you know, I, I took every meeting, you know, so many people said to me, oh my goodness, you can do anything now. But I couldn't, it took me a while to figure out what that was. I think what happened was the data acquisition was when I got the job at You Magazine, which was a real dream. It was such a big magazine and a real challenge because I'd not done a weekly magazine before. I'd never worked at a newspaper before, but I definitely went in with the resolve not to let the job absorb my identity again. So that is why I think my boss at the time when I resigned earlier this year,

I think he was shocked because it's the first time I have ever resigned from a job at the point where I really loved it. Because I just feel like I couldn't just sit there and sit there and get to the point I had at Glamour where I didn't go because I didn't know what else to do. What do you think all of this has taught you about resilience? Do you think you're a resilient person? Yeah, I do actually. I do too. Yeah, I definitely have my wobbles and my high stress moments.

But I find that what I've really learned over the last few years is when I'm having a moment, I definitely had a moment at You Magazine about six months in where I thought there's just too much to change here. I don't know if I can do this. And what I've learned to do is project forward and think, okay, well, in another six months, you'll have done this and this and this that you'll have to look back on. And so that's when I'm really, because the charity is a huge learning curve for me and a huge new challenge. And there's a lot of change to be made there. So I've had my days where I'm like, oh my God, can I actually do this? And what I do is think,

look at all the building blocks you're putting in place. In another six months, you will be able to look back and see that you have done A, B, C, D. And I think that that's what helps me have resilience. I think that's great advice. And I was once given similar advice by a good friend of mine when I was a feature writer on The Observer and I just started. And obviously, I wanted to impress my editor. And I took on too much.

And I had this one week where it was so stressful in terms of the amount I had to write and the deadlines I had to meet. And she said to me, I completely understand why you're stressed. That is a lot. But I promise you you the weekend will come and you'll look back and all of this will be in the rearview mirror and you will have done it and it was immensely helpful I find that so motivating and it took me a long time to learn that it really did because I you know I've had stress management training in many years ago and

I've learned a lot of tools because I am a real stress head I've learned a lot of tools because I am a real stress head. I've learned a lot of tools to deal with it. And one of those things is making sure I've got things in my diary that I really look forward to. It doesn't matter if it's like three weeks from now. Absolutely never letting anybody just fill my diary just because they've seen a gap. Being really strict about how many nights out I go out a week and exercising is hugely important for me. Well, I was just thinking what we were talking about can be applied to workouts.

And we were talking about the Peloton earlier. But that idea of I will have done this in half an hour if I do a boot camp. Oh, I love the smug feeling afterwards. The smug feeling afterwards is there's nothing like it. The smug endorphin. Yeah. Just irreplaceable. Yeah.

I'm really, I have to, because my husband loves the bike as well but he's just not i love getting off and going and then i did this and then i did that and he doesn't care he's like oh shut up i love i am a bit of an exercise ball yeah yeah never with me good yeah you know you can never but you always beat the hell out of me whenever we do races your stats are so much better than mine but i well i don't think that's true and also I don't think it's a good thing I'm highly competitive and I've spoken on this podcast but I've been even it but I am too but I just physically can't do it I have longer legs oh sorry I mean as in I'm taller and you're younger you're younger okay let's get on to your second failure which is a

very brave one for you to discuss and actually i really appreciate it when people come on to how to fail and they choose a failure that isn't a humble brag and this one is about a failure of friendship yeah in your eyes yeah and i think a lot of people will relate to this so don't be nervous talking about it because it will get us i am quite nervous talking about i feel the tears coming oh. Oh, my darling. I think it will lead us into a really interesting chat about friendship and the pressure we put ourselves under. So tell us what happened. Well, what happened was a dear friend of mine who moved to Australia

many years ago. She's British. She moved to Australia. She had a longed-for baby. We were all very excited. It took her quite a long time to tell me, I would say three or four months, that he wasn't very well. And I still don't really understand.

It was some sort of very rare genetic problem where he just had sort of like multiple organs that weren't functioning well. He was in and out of hospital from birth. And then she did tell me that it didn't look like he was going to lead a long life. And I think he was just shy of his first birthday when he passed away. I'm so sorry. It was horrible.

That's awful. And, you know, she was there. A couple of another friend who's very close to her and I were here. And I remember messaging her and saying you know we're here for you we're here for you whatever you need whatever you need you know sort of messaging texting leaving her alone those first few you know sort of like couple of weeks in their grief her and her partner and a couple of times tried to call couldn't get through left another couple of messages and then the days turn into know, a week and a week turns into

a few weeks. You know, she would text me and say things like, I just don't know how to get up in the morning. I don't know what to do with this grief. And I would say, I don't know how any day you get up is an achievement. And, you know, bear in mind at the time, Elizabeth, I had a very healthy six-year-old daughter. So I felt terribly guilty about that. I got to the point where literally nothing I could say or do was ever going to make this in any way better. And I just got to the point where I just didn't know what to say. And every time I went to pick up the phone, bearing in mind the time difference as well,

night here is day there, and you have to wait till midnight to get a decent time for them to be awake, all that sort of thing. It got to the point where the gap had been so long since I'd spoken to her that it got embarrassing to then pick up the phone. And so I just flaked. I flaked on my friend at the worst possible time. We've talked about it since, And, you know, she will say to me, look, believe me, you weren't the only one. That's, it's not good enough. And it's just

not good enough. One of the reasons I didn't want to talk about this is because I don't want anybody to think I'm looking for any kind of pat on the back for honesty or or anything you know you ask for fails this is the biggest fail of my life it just is and I'll never not be ashamed of it oh Jo I'm so sorry for your friend and what she yeah went through and I'm also so sorry for your loss because there's a loss for you there too and I know you're not looking for any sort of sympathy so I'm not going to give it to you but I just want to acknowledge that you said that you've spoken to your friend subsequently so your friendship has survived this yeah it's not the same I haven't seen her we don't she doesn't live in London you know it's fine you know we'll text each other and stuff. And she has other children now, thank goodness. And

to be honest with you, I think that that was, I don't think I was the only one who, that was such a huge relief. Yes. There's no replacing a lost child, of course. There's no ever getting over, but instead living beside that grief. But I was so happy that she had something to focus on, to put energy into, and that made it easier. And I hope I never do that again, but I never thought I would do that the first time. So who knows? Yeah. Can I ask you whether you think your self-perceived failure came as a result of a fear of the darkness of the world that something so horrendous and cruel and completely unjust could happen out of blue or or maybe and was it a fear of not being enough for that? A sort of deep realization that you felt in your bones, I'm never going to be able to help. I'm not enough for her as a friend.

I think definitely probably more the latter. To be honest with you, you know, and you and I have friends going through things at the moment, there's always that period where you just want to be respectful and let them live in their own space and not feel like someone's beholden to you just because you want to be demonstrative about your support. And so, you know, there's all of that. So you have that respectful phase. And in that phase, I was like, there's just nothing. What can you say to that? what can you say to that and but I've since realized that I should have been strong enough to let somebody just sit and wail on the phone if that was all that happened I should have and I

hope that I can be a better person should that happen in the future but I don't know well it's striking me that what you do now professionally is quite the response to this failure that you went through. You're now there. Maybe on some level it is. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Because you're now there through your charity role for so many families.

So I think that's such an interesting point, though. As you say, we know people who are going through really difficult life challenges. We know people who are going through really difficult life challenges. And you're right that sometimes those individuals will need to conserve their energy and won't be able to reply to every single text, every single phone call. And actually, sometimes I don't want to reply to every single text, however well-meaning they are. Exactly, yeah. And whilst it's incredibly important to be there, I think the more important thing is for the individual in question to know that you're there. Yeah.

And that doesn't have to be because you're texting and phoning. So for me, my metric of friendship, I think, the older I get, I've realised, is generosity of spirit. I know that you, Jo, will always be thinking well of me. Yeah. I hope. Absolutely. Except when you're slagging off my K-pop obsession.

And I know that gives me strength. I can call on that. I don't need to speak to you or text you every day to know that. Now, I've never been through anything as horrendous as what your friend did, thank goodness, and my heart goes out to anyone listening to this who can relate to that level of tragedy. But that's also important to say that sometimes friendship doesn't have to be expressed for you to have the knowledge that it's there. So I suppose that's just my cat-catted way of saying that I still believe you to be a really good friend. And it's actually about

working out what your metric is. That's really kind. I mean, who doesn't want to be a good friend? You know, and I try to be, and I'm one of the things I'm finding as I get older is I'm really delighting and I'm still making friends. And I love having a big network. I'm not, you meet those people that are, you know, particularly women are like, I've got two really close friends in my life and that's all I need. I don't need the fakers. You know, I quite like some of the fakers. I think I like sort of like people on different spheres. I like that there are people that I've only got X to talk to about. That's fine. It doesn't matter. It doesn't bother me at all.

Do you define yourself as an extrovert? I'm an introverted extrovert. I know that., you know, I'm not shy at all as people may have gathered. I am, you know, I'll tell you anything about myself, but I definitely, particularly things like socializing and things I definitely need, you know, if my husband fills the weekend and then the next weekend and the next weekend with events and stuff, I'm just, I'm catatonic at some point. I need me time, downtime. Have you ever broken up with a friend or been broken up with? Yeah, both. I think the last time I broke up with a friend, I was in my twenties and

I've never done it in a mature way. I bet you have, haven't you? I bet you've. I only through repeated failures in that yeah respect where I've been painted into a corner where I've had to be more mature and less conflict avoidant than I naturally am yeah so I have actually done that now where I've said what the issue is and left it at that and and it did feel a lot better I have to say because I think for a lot of people and maybe this is a specific thing to women but a lot of people who are conflict avoidant who do want people to like them who do pride themselves on friendship and being a good friend sometimes the only way out it feels to us as though it's ghosting it feels as though just

just falling out of someone's life would be better and easier and in a way more generous because we won't have to deal with the thing and that's partly because there's no language there's very little language around friendship which makes it culturally and it's it's so interesting that you know it isn't treated the same way as romantic relationships you know when i was younger i did ghost someone yeah quite badly I used to feel guilty thinking oh they probably wonder you know what maybe they never gave it a second thought I'm sure they did but I'm also sure like I've been ghosted yeah we've spoken about it I've had some brutal I've had a brutal ghosting in my life and actually now the time has come where

I feel fondly towards that friendship in retrospect for what it gave me at the time yeah and I now have a level of understanding in a way that person loved me so much that the only way out was ghosting because I sort of understand how difficult it is to end something but also and if you just you just start to learn people's patterns as well so you broke up with someone and then you've been broken up with yeah and I'm fine with that actually because I think that you sometimes I think you should be able to say that you know something's just run their course and I think women actually quite understand that a lot of the time and some friendships aren't for life yeah they're for phases of your life I think I

pretty genuinely have a healthy acceptance of that a relationship is a relationship for a season a reason or something else I don't know I haven't heard that one yeah can you get me that t-shirt yeah let's talking of threes let's go on to your third all right yeah god there's another one there is i'm so again really glad that you're talking about it because it's about temper or anger yeah so the way that you wrote it to me is that you often fail to control your temper and you said I've been doing well with having no massive meltdowns until the stress caused by someone letting me down recently just really got to me yeah I cried and slammed a door in front of several colleagues so embarrassing can you tell us a bit more about what happened okay so I don't

want to I mean it's a little bit delicate to talk about but basically I wasn't David Schwimmer no it wasn't David Schwimmer it wasn't bless him it wasn't him for this this tantrum was not caused by any any of my friends real or imagined it was a charity thing and I I got let down by somebody in a way that threatened a huge donation so that's the thing about this job it's meaningful it's like it's not money for me. It's not just Chanel number five saying we don't want to advertise this month. As I wrote in my sub stack a little while ago, it's like, you know, it was a little bit more of a big deal than beating Elle magazine to getting Ariana Grande on the foot, you know,

for a cover. It was like this stuff, I need this money for the kids and the scientists. I'd spent a really good, admirable couple of weeks handling it, like trying to find a solution, trying to find another way to – basically it was a celeb who said they'd do something and then wouldn't do something, and then I had to find another celeb to do the thing, otherwise we couldn't have the money. That's as specific as I can be. I'm really sorry.

I'll ask you about it once we stop recording. But, you know, like phoning people. I really have cast myself recently as London's most annoying person because in this job, you're just asking for favors all the time. And I was just running out of options. And then something else pinged into my inbox while this was like, this was like low key, this hum of stress that had been going on for two weeks, like keeping me up at night, literally, you know, all those things. It wasn't anything at all, really. Just somebody sent me a mildly irritating email about something else. And all my anger came spurting out my fingers and my eyes. And the thing is, Elizabeth, I'm not a big crier, but annoyingly, infuriatingly,

anger is what makes me cry. It's got nowhere else to go but out my eyes. So I cried. I slammed a door. As I slammed the door, a mirror fell off the wall. This is in front of colleagues who I was working with at the mail on the day. I sat out in the corridor, embarrassed to go back in, sat on the floor, taking deep breaths, trying to calm down. And then another man who I've never seen before or since came running out of another door. He's like, have you hurt yourself? I heard the most enormous crash. I was like, no, I'm all right. Thanks. It's been a long time since anything like that happened, but that was like, it was so embarrassing. There are so many questions I want to ask you. And it's so interesting because I'm hearing that. Please tell me you've

done something like that. I will. Yes, I have. I will. I'll come back to that. But I hear that and I think, how badass. That's what I think. Oh, I just think it's so embarrassing. I would so much rather have that response. I don't like the loss of control. Than I cry all the time.

So I don't cry, well, maybe it's suppressed anger, but I don't think I cry when I'm angry. I just cry when I feel hurt or let down and all those things. See, I don't think I cry when I'm angry I just cry when I feel hurt or let down and like all those things I don't and that's so interesting because I could talk for a whole other podcast episode about female anger and how traditionally and culturally we as cis women have been taught by a patriarchy to suppress our anger because it's unfeminine, it's shrewish, it's witch-like, it's scary. Well, it's not only that in the environments I've worked in, it's got that real sort of like, oh, you see, women just can't handle it. They just can't, you know, they're too emotional. You know, they're not rational. That's my inner voice.

Yes. Male rage can be righteous. Absolutely. But a woman's rage is unhinged. That's the danger. Yeah. And actually... And I was unhinged that day and i unhinged a mirror did it break no oh thank goodness god lovely luke my producer at palace confidential caught it oh my god props to luke yeah but you see i think that that anger was righteous yes you might say that you felt unhinged and but it came from a righteous place and i feel that righteous anger can actually give us the power to change the world because that will now motivate you to go back and get another celebrity and get that donation because of your fury and your indignation and we did ultimately come up with a solution remember once swearing and raging in traffic, stuck with my dad in gridlock traffic.

And I was at the wheel and my dad said, Jo, there's nothing you can do about it. And I was like, that's why I'm so angry. There's nothing I can do about it. You feel stuck in it. Exactly. That's what frustrates me. When you said, please tell me you've done something like that,

I was going to take you back to when I was 11. And I used to have a was 11 and I used to have a bad temper I used to be terrible to play card games with I hated losing like all of that and I remember age 11 being at school unhappily at school that was the period of bullying and I remember being on the brink of losing my temper with another girl and taking myself off into a cupboard and locking myself in the cupboard and giving myself a talking to and saying no one's going to like you if you keep having this temper and from that moment on for the next three decades I never lost my temper other than behind the wheel of a car when I was on my own when I felt safe

enough and that's when it would all come out and I would be launching the most vicious thank god it came out because when you said you've been suppressing it since you were 11, I was thinking Elizabeth's going to go into a supermarket one day and kill everyone. I mean, that's the thing. Do you know what? I did get divorced at 36 and that's when a lot of it came up. I have to say, as embarrassed as I was that day, because it's the first time in years I've had a meltdown like that. I'm telling you, the knot in my stomach went, I felt like when I'd done a workout, I felt like it was catharted. And I honestly, and I need to find other ways to do that rather than slam doors

and cry, but it really, really helped. But I still think you should allow yourself to feel the feeling. Yes, don't break a mirror. No, that's bad luck. Yeah, exactly. That's my prime concern for donations. Exactly, exactly. I know that you talk publicly, and we're all so grateful for it, about perimenopause, menopause, what women go through. Such a magical time.

Why would I not celebrate it? But again, that's another thing that I feel that growing up in the 80s and 90s as we did was almost completely overlooked. I had no idea about my menstrual cycle, about how hormones could affect my emotions, whether I was feeling angry, whether I was feeling down. No, exactly. And all I remember about menopause, my education about menopause was I was about nine or 10 years old and I could hear my grandmother and all her elderly friends whispering about the change. Oh, she hasn't been the same since the change. She's such a grumpy old man now. All of this stuff. So I equated it's very bad.

It's a big change and it happens to very, very old people. So I had no idea when I thought I was bleeding to death in a Milan airport that it was perimenopause. And I literally went to the doctor like, again, cancer my biggest fear. I think I've got ovarian cancer. This happened. She was like, you daft mare, it's perimenopause. I was like, it's peri-what?

So this is why I've started, you know, I've agreed to do all that stuff because I don't want anybody else to think they're dying when it's just normal. It's normal. And so much of what women go through has, for millennia, been kept out of sight. Yes. And not talked about. And when it is talked about, you're right, the language is so depressing. So it's either the change or, do you remember, I remember our periods being called the curse.

Yes. Oh, you've fallen pregnant. That's one of my least favorite phrases just horrendous i failed to progress which is why i had a cesarean oh my gosh yeah exactly and then i talk all the time about the language of failure as it pertains to fertility and failing to respond to the drugs and you've got an inhospitable womb and all of that oh and we really need to start questioning the language because i really believe that that's where self-perception starts i'm afraid it matters it really matters so i've got an idea for a perimenopause campaign which is to team up with nando's and do a peri perimenopause chicken well i mean i don't think you can have that for free no i think you should do that do you even like Nando's?

No. Do you not? Oh, see, I do. Sorry. You know, I'm sure they're a lovely company or whatever. I just not a spicy, I don't like spice and I don't like chicken with bones in it. I think you just failed to get a Nando's sponsorship for how to fail. I failed to get a Nando's.

Sorry, Nando's. I love them, just by the way. I did once go to Nando's but I love them just by the way yeah I did once go to Nando's my best friend took me in the aftermath of a heartbreak and I ordered the quinoa salad and it was terrible and I hate myself who the hell orders the quinoa salad I ordered the quinoa salad and a beer just because there's nothing else I fancied anyway it's just subversive this is just my failure to be a functioning human so we're coming to the end of our time. I've loved it. It's gone so quickly.

Can we go to the pub now? I'd love to, except it's like 10 a.m. What's your point? But in Australia, it would be perfect. It's 9 p.m. But can I ask you, Jo, because I love you. I love you. Honestly, I think you're amazing.

But one of the things I've always felt about you is... You knew there'd be a but. No, it's a good but. I've always felt that you know who you honestly i think you're amazing but one of the things i've always felt about you is there'd be a but no there isn't it's a good but i've always felt that you know who you are oh god you really know who you are as a person do you think so why do you think that well i wondered if you thought that because it's so interesting that i don't think you do i have never i don't think ever contemplated that question i think i think that because i feel that you know where you stand on things. I could ask you your opinion on almost anything and there would be a straightforward answer. Well, what I do know about myself, and I think that it's more and more important in these troubled digital age times that we have, is I'm really happy to tell you if I don't know

something. And I'm really happy for my opinion to be, I haven't made up my mind about that. Tell me what you think. I don't know if I've got an opinion on everything. That's the most powerful thing I think anyone can say. It's really hard to do these days. Yes. You're not allowed to ask.

I asked my daughter questions about some gender stuff recently. She's like, I can't believe you asked me that. I was like, I'm trying to learn. I need to learn. Help me learn learn but there's definitely a faction of society that wants you to know everything before you've asked a question and thinks you're wrong if you don't know the right yeah yes yeah I think that that is such a lovely place to end on the power of saying I don't know yeah the space to think. And what an inspiring guest you've been. Thank you so much.

Well, I'm absolutely blown away to be asked to do it. Thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure. Thank you for talking to us about your failures, your motivation, your resilience, how you recover from things. I think it's been so deeply inspiring for me and I hope for all of our listeners.

Thank you so much, Jo Elvin, for for all of our listeners. Thank you so much, Jo Elvin, for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. And I'd like to say thank you again to our sponsor Peloton for making it possible. Don't forget to check out their website at onepeloton.co.uk. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.