How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, BONUS EPISODE How To Fail: Lorraine Kelly, the daytime TV icon on failing to go to uni, being fired and...penguins

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

Lorraine Kelly has been on our TV screens for the best part of 40 years. Born to working-class, teenage parents, she turned down a university place to join the local paper and then BBC Scotland as a researcher. By 1984, she was TV-AM’s Scotland correspondent. Today, she’s at the helm of the eponymous Lorraine show live every weekday morning.In a special bonus episode, she joins me to talk about everything from the power of drag to the TV executive who told her to change her accent to how being fired on maternity leave was actually the making of her via her worries that she only had one child and her passion for penguins. Yes. Penguins. Enjoy!--Queens for the Night airs tomorrow night on ITV at 8.30pm--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Lorraine Kelly @lorrainekellysmith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. In May 2022, the then Prime Minister Boris Johnson appeared on Good Morning Britain, interviewed by Susanna Reid. When told that Lorraine was about to begin, Johnson blurted out, who's Lorraine? Reid replied, Lorraine's a legend. The answer was both concise and deadly accurate, for Lorraine Kelly is indeed a legend. A broadcaster for almost 40 years, a woman able to take the temperature of the nation and to talk to anyone from Oscar winners to bus drivers with the same warm, chatty and yet deceptively forensic manner. She was born to working class teenage parents and grew up in a one room flat in Glasgow's Gorbals area with an outside loo and no hot water. But it was a childhood furnished by love and filled with books and newspapers. Kelly turned down a university place to join the local paper and then BBC Scotland as a researcher. By 1984, she was TVAM's

Scotland correspondent. Today, she's at the helm of the eponymous Lorraine Show, live every weekday morning. Lorraine has seen us through pandemics, lockdowns and changes in government. She is, for many of us, the constant, warm, incisive presence that anchors our day and makes us all feel seen and heard. The phrase national treasure is often overused, but Lorraine Kelly is absolutely one. It's little wonder that total strangers assume they know her. She says, I'll be toddling around with my husband in the supermarket and people will come up and start chatting to us. He'll just stand here and then they'll go and he'll say, how do we know them? And I'm like, we don't. Lorraine Kelly, legendary Lorraine. I cannot believe I get to say this. Welcome to How to Fail. Oh, it's so good. So good to talk to you. I love,

I love this podcast. It's so interesting because you to talk to you I love I love this podcast it's so interesting because you get to hear different aspects of people that you you don't sometimes get to hear and I like that it's very different thank you well I'm a huge admirer as you could tell from that gushing intro but I wanted to end on that note where people come up to you at the supermarket and just start chatting why do you think that is do you think that it's because you have this authenticity where you seem utterly yourself on screen and off I think it's partly that but I think an awful lot of it is that people have grown up with me you know they have and a lot of people say to me oh my mum watched you and I watched you as a kid because, I mean, goodness me, do you know what, Elizabeth?

In two years' time, it'll be 40 years I've been doing Breakfast Telly. I started in 84, which is quite remarkable because I still feel as if I'm about 25 years old. It's incredible, you know, it really is. And that's lovely. And people remember things like my daughter's birthday and when I got married. And, you know, people send me letters sharing experiences.

You know, if we've done something on the show, they'll share those experiences with me. And that's a real huge privilege. And people coming up and chatting away to me is lovely. You know, people wanting a selfie or whatever. It takes two seconds. It takes no time at all. And it's a lovely thing to happen it really is I think it's gorgeous so almost 40 years that's a lot of lost sleep that you've had yes now that is very true I'm not grey I'm not a morning person everybody says oh you must be you know up the lark and all that I'm really not it's been a strange one because when I first started out I was doing the six o'clock program and the studio

then the TVM studio was in Camden in London and you know it's quite a party central place and I'd be going to my work at like half two three in the morning people would be rolling out of pubs and clubs and I would be going to my work and it was just like weird it was just so so strange and you never really quite get enough sleep I don't think but then everybody that works funny shifts it's exactly the same you know and now it's not too bad I don't need to go up till five o'clock which is actually verging on the normal. It's a lion for Lorraine Kelly this sounds like a superficial question but it's not because I'm in my 40s and I want to know your skincare secrets because how have you lost out on so much sleep and how do you look this amazing I'm looking at your face and there's not a wrinkle on it oh no there is oh no there's there's

many many a wrinkle many a wrinkle I think it's luck because I don't take as much care of myself as I should my mum is in her 80s and looks at least I think 10 15 years younger than that so I think it's in the genes. I definitely think that's got a lot to do with it. But my mum always said to me, moisturise, moisturise all the time, even when we were tiny. So I've always done that. And it doesn't have to be really expensive stuff.

I think that's all a bit of a myth. Whatever suits you is best. But that's really it. And I do take my makeup off quite well. Not as well. My daughter does this thing thing this double cleanse thing she's really good she's got skin like a peach and she always says I don't do it properly but I do try I do try now you're about to front this fabulous sounding ITV show Queens for the night

tell us about it and what it is and what appeals to you about it well if there was ever a show that I was born to do I think it was this one definitely what it is is you see six household names are teamed up with their own drag queen mentor and then they are instructed on some aspect of drag whether it be lip syncing telling jokes doing magic dancing singing live whatever it may be then they do that and then there's a competition to see who's the best. But to be honest with you, that's kind of almost irrelevant who's the best. It's just seeing them doing it. And what's brilliant about it is the way that

different aspects of their personality come out. I am not very good at the whole kind of red carpet thing. Not very good at getting my photograph taken. I just find it all a little bit sort of awkward and I never know where to put my hands you know or what to do I got a drag makeover to be on the front of Attitude magazine and when I was in drag which I kind of looked like Mary Queen of Scots

mixed with Helena Bonham Carter you remember she had the great big giant head in Alice in Wonderland when she was the Queen of Hearts so I kind of looked like that I looked like a cartoon but I felt amazing. It was very powerful. So I understand that. And also what's great about the show is we've got a

brilliant panel and it's great fun, but there's real heart. It's like RuPaul's Drag Race. There's such heart in that show. You get to know people, you get to hear their stories. It's funny, it's waspish, you know, there's a lot of of shade but it's still really endearing and there's a huge tradition of drag in this country going all the way back to Stanley Baxter, Danny LaRue, Lily Savage all of these people we've always loved it we've always loved it in this country so I'm hoping that people will really enjoy it we had a ball. It sounds amazing and you mentioned there that you were on the cover of Attitude magazine, and that is because you have been a ferocious and empowering advocate for the LGBTQ plus community. And I read somewhere that it's very important to you to treat everyone the same.

And you think that maybe that comes from having felt a bit like an outsider yourself. Yes, I very much did when I was at school, because I was born in the Gorbals, as you said, and then we moved to Brickton in the east end of Glasgow, and we had an inside toilet. It was extremely, extremely wonderful and, you know, very plush. And then they knocked all the houses down in that part of Glasgow. So we had to move to East Kilbride, a new town, when I was 13. And that's hard. That's very, very hard when you leave your clan you know when you found your tribe and then you're put somewhere else and of course those days no social media we actually did have a phone in our new house but nobody else I knew had a phone so I couldn't phone anyone I used to

pick up the phone and listen to dial a disc back in those days you dialed up honestly on the phone and you listen to music or I would phone the speaking clock because I was so excited about having a phone but I couldn't phone any of my friends so inevitably you lost touch because we didn't have obviously mobile phones I mean we're talking about the 70s for goodness sake the early 70s so that was quite hard so although I did make really good friends who I've still got to this day there was a period where I felt like a real outsider and I've always felt a wee bit like that and an awful lot of my friends when I was growing up were kind of like if you like if you want to say the word misfits and then I guess you know when I started working in restaurants and things like that just to pay the bills because the wages I was getting weren't enough to pay the bills

because I just bought a wee flat and most of my friends were in the gay community and they were just my friends that was it and I didn't really understand why there would be a problem. You know, why anybody would find that there was something wrong with that. They were just my mates, you know, and you're right. It's about treating everybody the same. We're all just wanting to go on with our lives. We're all just wanting to make our best journey bumbling through. I just genuinely do not get the level of hate sometimes just because of who you want to

fall in love with. It just makes no sense to me at all. It's mad. I love that about you. I wanted to ask you a little bit about your upbringing before we move on to your failures because I said in the introduction that it was working class. Now I actually think sometimes using that phrase feels a bit retrograde, but also important because we are still a society that has its struggles with class. I wish we were beyond it, but we're not. How important is it for you representing that, representing the working class. It's huge because when you think about it, you know, we tackle things quite rightly, like homophobia, racism, all of these things, transphobia, all of that. But we don't actually tackle class in this country. And it's a massive thing.

I mean, I honestly don't think that me, you know, a girl like me growing up now, like the sort of 17 year old that went to work in the local newspaper, would get the same sort of opportunities that I had. And that's really sad. I honestly don't think so. I think we've gone backwards in some ways. And particularly young working class people, no matter what colour they are, no matter what religion they are, it doesn't really matter. If you're working class, it's a mark against you, which is terribly sad because when I was growing

up, it was almost like it was a tick, you know, it was like, oh, you'd kind of not overcome. Yeah, I guess sort of overcome that in a way. But that was for me because of where I was from and I could talk to anyone. And my mum and dad had always impressed upon me that, oh, you're just as good as anybody else without being pushy. You know, they taught me to read and write before I went to primary school, which was a huge advantage and gave me my love of reading which is massive but I don't honestly think someone like me would make it now and that makes me very well it makes me very sad it also makes me very angry. Why do you think that is? Is it that to get a job on a local paper you would need some kind of money now because there are so many internships? Do you think

that's part of it? Yes yes it's it's partly that it's partly people wanting to if you go and do work experience and you want to make it as a journalist or perhaps as an actor or something you know something that's in entertainment if you like or news it's very difficult trying to live in London is really expensive I mean it comes down to cash it It comes down to cold, hard cash, which then again, it comes down to opportunity. And I was very lucky at school. I had amazing, inspirational teachers who taught me a lot of Shakespeare.

You know, you would think looking at that school, you would dismiss it these days. You'd say, oh, there's nothing good going to come out of there. They're all going to come out of there. And, you know, they're just going to be useless members of society. But actually, no, we really weren't. but that's because we had amazing teachers because at that time teachers were really valued in a way that I don't think they are now even post-covid when people learned how important teachers were that's kind of dissipated now it's like almost like

people have forgotten it which is really sad because you get a good teacher you're away you are flying you know they give you all of that and if you've got that support at home, which, you know, we always had books and magazines and there's always that around you. There's always debate in our family. We were always chatting. My dad was this kind of self-taught working class man because he couldn't go to university. He couldn't afford it. But there was a lot of particularly men who taught themselves themselves who would be interested in opera and ballet and literature but they taught themselves because they went to the library and read the books your parents sound amazing and I wanted to make that point in the

introduction that on one level you could describe your childhood and it could sound very very grim and on another level actually it was suffused with love and books, as you say. And I find that all the more impressive, given that your parents were so young when they had you. They were incredibly young. I mean, when I think of myself at their age, you know, at 17, 18, I cannot believe that they managed to have a child and bring this child up. It is astonishing. It's remarkable. It really is. But they were grafters. They really taught me that work ethic. My dad was in the television business. He fixed tellies. That was his job. He used to carry these. And tellies back then were huge and really, really fat, you know,

and he used to have to carry them up downstairs. No wonder the poor me soul's got a bad back now. They worked and they grafted and they worked really hard it wasn't a grim childhood and I think do you know what's really interesting because they were so young and so much younger than most of my contemporaries their mum and dads felt like a different generation my mum and dad were listening to Dusty Springfield and the Beatles and the Stones and Bob Dylan whereas you know their mum and dads were listening to like much older music that wasn't relevant so everybody loved coming back to my house and we put Dusty Springfield on the radiogram and all dance about to the vinyl. And mum wore mini skirts and makeup and was trendy and all of that. So there was huge advantages in having younger, vibrant parents. You know, there's always something

going on in the house. Wow. Okay, before we get onto to your failures two of my favorite facts about Lorraine Kelly you love below deck so do I fabulous so good and you live on a houseboat is that right well it's not really a house but it's by the river it's an old boat house so it's a very higgledy piggledy strange long house it's not that long but it's a very strange wee house that's had bitties added to it over the years and when we went to see it you know when you go somewhere like any house I've ever lived in I go by a gut feeling yeah and I walked into this house and because it is right by the river and there was ducks I love ducks and swans and things like that and I just thought this is brilliant but it wasn't it's not a grand kind of because I wouldn't be

comfy in somewhere like that it's got a bath where you don't expect a bath to be at the bottom of the staircase you think why but then I quite like that nothing really goes it's all over the place it's very eccentric and I've got stuff everywhere I mean I'm a terrible hoarder like my gran and I've got stuff about you know penguins are everywhere books about Ernest Shackleton and piles of books everywhere it's a madhouse but I love it it's cozy and it's home it feels so interesting you said that it feels like a boat you know it really feels like we're on a houseboat because we're so on the river it does feel like that and it doesn't feel like a house it's always been my dream it feels like a home yeah it sounds like my perfect house and I love so cute it's so cute and so silly and so mad I mean it would take a certain person to live there yeah you know if you were

into sort of minimalism and high ceilings and no okay you're not gonna like it so your husband is okay with living there as well oh he loves it okay he likes the penguins yeah yeah yeah he does I've got a giant penguin he bought me a giant penguin for my birthday when I was 50 he took me to Edinburgh he said I've got you a surprise we went down this kind of little alleyway thing and there was a lot of jewelers and I thought oh god I hope he hasn't bought me because I'm not into jewellery I don't really get it it's just diamonds are just carbon I don't understand I've never understood it I don't get it I just don't get it and I'm like no, he's commissioned a piece of jewellery. And then, no, right next door to it was this man

that makes giant six-feet-tall penguins. And he bought me a penguin of my own that's in our garden looking out onto the river. It's so unbelievably cool. That is so sweet. And you just like penguins. I love them. I love them.

They are the bestest things and we went to Antarctica Steve and I he organized a trip for our 25th wedding anniversary and we went to Antarctica in South Georgia did the Shackleton voyage and I was crying I was at Ernest Shackleton's grave with an enormous glass of whiskey toasting the boss I was overwhelmed and so many penguins so many penguins and I just sat there and they come up to you because they're not used to people it was a joy it was the bestest bestest I can't wait to go back so do you feel a special affinity with Anna Shackleton yeah I don't know why I don't know why maybe it's like you know snatching victory from the jaws of defeat you

know he was incredible and being able to get it's that thing of, you know, having a quest and he did it and he saved all these men, you know, when the ship went down and they were on an ice floe and then in a rowing boat, in a rowing boat, for goodness sake, 800 miles to South Georgia.

How he did it, it actually genuinely can't be done because they've tried it recently. They've tried it with all mod cons and modern, you know, means of communication because these guys might as well have been on the recently. They've tried it with all mod cons and modern, you know, means of communication. Because these guys might as well have been on the moon. They couldn't get in touch with anyone.

And nobody's been able to do it. It's just astonishing. He's my absolute hero. And that was the best thing in the world. In fact, I came back and I looked for a job down there and I'm not qualified to do anything. So I can't cook. I couldn't even be the cook.

Can't do nothing. You looked for a job in Antarctica? Yeah, in South Georgia. You're not allowed to do that what will the rest of us do we can't have you going to Antarctica well I'm not qualified okay well that's a relief a nation breathes a sigh of relief talking of qualifications your first failure is that you never went to university no I didn't I didn't go instead I went to my local newspaper, the East Cobregg News. I was supposed to go to do Russian and English. And I would have loved to have gone, but I really wanted to be a journalist. It's what I wanted to be. So some might say curious, some might say nosy.

I'm just interested in everything. And that's why I love my job so much because every day I learn something new which is wonderful but my mum and dad they were disappointed they never said anything at the time but in a working class home like my mum and dad's is particularly in Scotland you want on the mantelpiece the picture of your kid with a scroll and the funny hat that they've just had their degree that is you saying to everybody look what we've done yeah that's like the sense do you know what I mean so thank goodness my incredibly talented baby brother he went to university and they've got the picture so it's okay you were made rector of the university of dundee so I'm guessing they have a picture of that oh absolutely and then I got an honorary degree from Dundee University and from Edinburgh Napier

so I just got two degrees I am a doctor twice but but not really I mean that's just really cheating isn't it that's just so cheating but it was lovely to have that experience and to have because obviously all my friends went to university I was the only one that got a job everybody else went to uni yeah in fact they all did really so but went to university. I was the only one that got a job. Everybody else went to uni. Yeah, in fact, they all did, really. So, but I was lucky because I got the sort of university social life through them. But then I was working as well. Sometimes it was difficult balancing the two, as you can imagine.

But yeah, that was good. But yeah, there's still part of me that feels I should have done that degree. And I've always thought that one day, you know, I would do the Open Uni and actually do it because I think the Open University is great that my mum does the University of the Third Age yeah which is a brilliant thing she's learning German she's 82 and she's learning German it's brilliant it's great to stimulate the mind and all of that but yeah that was I think that was one of my fails which turned out to work you know because obviously you know the job at the East Bride News, which was amazing, led to the job at BBC, which of course I was told I would never make it on television by the boss of BBC Scotland, who didn't like my accent, said it was offensive.

He said it was offensive? Yeah, he said it was, I'd have to get elocution lessons because nobody spoke like me back then. There wasn't people like Eamon or Anton Degg or anyone who spoke other than RP, sort of received pronunciation. They didn't, not even in Scotland. It was astonishing. But then it worked out because it gave me the gumption to phone up the boss of TVAM and say, I hear there's a job going and I can be your Scottish correspondent. I don't know where I got the nerve to do that. I couldn't do it now. There's no way I could phone up a boss of a TV station and say, hello, I can do it.

So it just shows you when you don't know when you're young and you're fearless, you just do it. And in those early days of your journalism career, you covered some very, very difficult stories. You covered the Lockerbie plane crash and the Dunblane school shooting. And I started out in newspapers myself and I felt it was an extraordinary privilege to talk to people in those kind of circumstances. But it takes a level of empathy and human insight. And I wonder what it taught you,

those salutary experiences. Well, it was quite astonishing. Lockerbie was very difficult. It was hard because I wasn't particularly experienced but I was lucky that I was working for a station tvim as was that allowed you to be emotional but not mockish if you know what I mean you know you convey the emotion of what's happening without it tipping over into self-indulgence because that's wrong you have to get the tone right. And that taught me an awful lot anyway. The way I got through that, I'll be honest with you, was I just pretended it was a movie because you can't process that level of horror. And it just felt like it was a film. It really did. Dunblane was different. I was working as a presenter then for GMTV and I actually got a call,

I went up there to cover it with Eamon and then I got a call from one of the families, Pam, Pam Ross, whose daughter Joanna had been killed and she just wanted to talk to somebody and she just phoned up and it was all done very privately, Elizabeth, it was all done really privately. That's why I really admired my boss at GMTV at the time, because he just said, look, go and do it. Obviously, no pressure. You know, I went up there, there was no camera crew, for goodness sake, absolutely not. And I just talked to Pam, and she's still my friend to this day, you know, she's still, and I remember she had a wee baby, Alison, who's now, you know, in her 20s and got a baby of her own. But Alison at that time was a baby, and she was the saving of the family,

because, you know, Alison had to have her bottom changed she had to be fed she had to be taken care of she had to be looked after and that was astonishing for me that she felt a connection with me my daughter was very young at the time she was only two and she watched the show every day and she just wanted to talk to somebody who was slightly out with the family but somebody that she felt she could trust and trust so much that she actually allowed me to see her little girl who looked very peaceful it was horrendous he'd shot her in the back of the head but she looked very peaceful lying there in her little Pocahontas nightie she also did me the honour of inviting me to her funeral which was a remarkable thing to do. We just hit it off instantly.

We talked about our kids. We just talked and talked and talked. And like I say, she's still my pal. I mean, when I phone her up, Steve always goes, oh, is that Pam? You'll be on the phone for two hours then. Because we just talk and talk and talk.

She's a remarkable woman and the resilience of those parents was incredible. But all that was done really privately. We didn't put that on TV, you know, because that wouldn't have been right to do that wouldn't have been right thank you so much for sharing that and what a beautiful thing for Pam to do but also what a beautiful thing for you to do in return I wonder actually the fact that you say that was all privately done. Do you think as a culture, we now are in an era of quote unquote trauma porn, where quite often, you know, celebrities are really encouraged to rake over all the terrible stuff in their past for clicks online. It's something that I also struggle with, because

I'm aware that this podcast often ventures into territory where people are being really vulnerable, but I strive to make it a safe and respectful place and sometimes there's quite a thin line between that what's your take on all of that? I think you've hit on something there absolutely I think there's a sense of maybe we overshare too much I always think look people know me because there I am and you know they've seen me going through things like having a baby having a miscarriage you know having a an accident and an operation and all of these things. But there's a certain part of me that I keep to myself because I think it's really, really important. I'm very happy to talk about my daughter, to talk about my husband, to talk about my

life, to talk about my parents. But there are certain things that I won't do. You just know that there's a line that you won't cross. And it's not that I'm being difficult. It's not that. I just think you've got just know that there's a line that you won't cross and it's not that I'm being difficult it's not that I just think you've got to do that you've got to hold on to a little bit of a part of yourself that's yours like I wouldn't talk about details you know really personal details about my relationship with my husband you know I'll probably say he's brilliant he's fantastic and he cooks and he's lovely and he's gorgeous but I wouldn't really go into a lot

of detail about that because that's very very private I was very open about the fact that I had a miscarriage because it was unfortunately when I was in the hospital it ended up in the papers because that's what happens to you and you've got to accept that so I kind of had to address it and that's fine and and people were lovely and I got a lot of comfort from letters you know that women and men had written to me and I got a greater insight into that perhaps and a greater understanding it doesn't always work out like that but I think there's a little bit that you've got to keep to yourself and there is a sense of

maybe too much information perhaps with some people but you've got to have I think it's that self-edit button that you've got to have sometimes I mean I do live telly and there's certain things I mean sometimes I do kind of say things and I think well maybe I shouldn't have said that but then I think oh what the hell but I usually have a self-edit that I know that you know there's things you can't say or there's things that you don't express because it's not appropriate or it's too private I want to say I'm so sorry about your miscarriage and I know that we're going to come on to talk about it so I'm not moving on from it. And thank you for sharing it. But do you also feel a responsibility as the presenter sometimes to protect your guest from saying too much?

Oh, absolutely. Again, I always think for me, and maybe this is why I've been around for so long, but for me, it's not about me. I'm lucky enough for the show is called my name but it's all about the guest part of my job is to make people feel comfortable I go and see them before they're on air unless they're late and I can't traffic or whatever especially if it's someone's first time you know I said I don't go through the interview because I don't know what I'm going to say in the interview oftentimes I have a couple of bullet points but who knows because it's a conversation but I just try and put everybody ease and make sure that they're comfortable make sure that they're okay even

politicians you know even politicians who've not done much but you know you kind of because you want people to have a good experience and to have a good account of themselves I want people to go away thinking you know if they're on talking to me about maybe they've been through a trauma maybe someone has died you know they're trying to overcome something I want them to go away thinking I've done myself proud and I've done that person proud that's the most important thing and I don't honestly think that certainly in my show a sort of gladiatorial style works you get so much more with sugar than vinegar as my old granny used to say and there's no point and it's not about me I don't care if people think that's a daft question to ask because if it got a good answer,

because it's about that. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It's about that. And I wish more people would do that. You know, do your homework and don't make it about you. Oh, I could not agree more. That is so everything that I believe in.

Thank you for sharing that. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions,

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by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Let's skip to your, it's actually your third failure, but I want to do it in this order because it has come up. And as you put it your third failure is that you only had one child yes yes I mean to be honest with you I'm incredibly lucky she is fabulous my daughter she just threw us a surprise 30th anniversary party I had no idea about this she sent us away to a lovely hotel she said I'm sending you and dad to a lovely hotel. She said, I'm sending you and dad to a lovely hotel. Everything is paid for.

Go for it. And we did. We really did. And then the next day, our friend turned up in a wee boat and took us down the river to our wee house. And while we're going down the river, I'm thinking, I can hear bagpipes. Oh, says our pal, John. He says, oh, Rosie's just playing that on her iPod

just to welcome you back. She's been very, no, we got there. There's a piper giving it large, a ceilidh band, my brother and his girlfriend from Singapore, my bestest friend from Spain, 60 odd people. I mean, it was unbelievable. The penguin was bedecked. Everything was fantastic.

We danced, we laughed, we ate, we cried. We had the bestest time and attention to detail that girl Rosie had like flowers everywhere and it was like flowers from my bouquet like roses and freesias and thistles she had that was the attention to detail we had a DJ it was the business it was better than my wedding it was fantastic so I have got an amazing girl but I do there are times when I just think I wish we'd been able to have another one the thing was when I had the miscarriage she would have been about now that was in about 2000 and I sometimes think you know I wonder what that child would

have been like and all of that you sort of you know you do and something that really struck me as well was sometimes men get forgotten about like people were asking me how I was but they wouldn't ask Steve how he was you're mourning for the future that you won't see or the person that you won't see growing up and I just I would have had a football team but having said that how lucky am I to have an amazing daughter who still likes me which is good I mean it's good which is lovely but I would have loved to have had more kids it would have been great and you know I wouldn't have cared boys girls whatever I don't care I don't care it just would have been great and it would have been good for Rosie as well I think but it couldn't have worked out better and you know what over the years I've interviewed so many women and men who haven't been able to have children at all you know what over the years I've interviewed so many women and men who haven't

been able to have children at all you know so I'm blessed in the sense that I do have Rosie but it would have been lovely it just would have been lovely it's just one of those things you kind of go it would have been really good but then we didn't do anything about it in a sense when that happened in 2000 we could have gone down the road of you know getting IVF or surrogacy or because there's so many options but I think we just sort of ran out of time and that was the thing I think that I find I fail because although I wanted to I didn't really do anything about it I just thought it will happen and then it didn't and then before you know we are you're going through the menopause and it's too late you know yeah yeah there's so many things that I want to say first of all Rosie has put daughters across the country to shame everywhere totally obviously that is

quite some bar to live up to amazing amazing I had no idea and neither did Steve we had absolutely no idea this was all going on so great and I love her on Gogglebox she's gorgeous she's so funny but I also thank you so much for opening up about that because I think a number of things. First of all, the fact that it is still clearly something that you think about 22 years on. Secondly, the fact that you did have a child already. And I often think that people who have miscarriages after having had a child feel like their grief isn't worth the same airtime. And it absolutely is. And I speak as someone myself, I've had three miscarriages. I don't yet have a baby. I'm still on that journey, but I can completely appreciate what you were saying there about there were things

that you could have done, but you didn't. Do you think that's partly because of fear? Because going through miscarriages is a scary and physical thing yes it is and mentally you know physically the scars heal your body heals but I think yeah I think you're right I think a lot of that if I think about it I'm not very good at self-analysis I'm always too busy and I don't have time to sit and do that but I think it's actually quite a good thing to do a bit of life laundry as they call it but yeah there was probably part of it was that maybe buried and and we probably didn't talk about it as much as we should have and and I guess and the time just went you know and it wasn't that we weren't trying but it just didn't happen and there's a wee bit of you thinking to yourself well you've already got one so you know you've already got a cracker and she's happy and she's

healthy which is all that you want so maybe it was a little bit of that I guess I think you're right you've already got one. So, you know, you've already got a cracker and she's happy and she's healthy, which is all that you want. So maybe it was a little bit of that, I guess. I think you're right. Has Rosie ever said that she wishes she'd had a sibling? Not really. She's got some fantastic friends. You know this thing, like a lot of mums in particular say that they're their children's friend.

Uh-uh, I'm her mother. I'm her mother. I love her very much and I like her. And the two are not always the same, but I really do. I'm her mum and I do not expect her to tell me everything. I'd love her to think that she did, but no, that's it.

I mean, I never told my mum everything. Did you? No. I didn't. No, of course you didn't. You have your parents. She's got really, really good friends. And I think what it made her be is a lot more outgoing.

She was not adult, not in a horrible way way but she was very mature at a young age but not in a way that would make you want to slap her she was just mature and actually a really good she's very at ease with adult company but equally at ease with people her own age and she's always been a little bit like that she's like an old soul yeah you know it's quite interesting and she's got real emotional intelligence as well as being bright, which I think is actually as important, you know, as being intellectual or being clever, if you like. Emotional intelligence is probably even more important.

So she's never actually said that would be good. And then, of course, I was really horrible to my wee brother. I used to beat him up when he was wee because he was so beautiful. Did you? Yeah, I was sick. Sorry, I can't imagine that. Oh yeah I was six oh no no no I was awful I was evil he still talks about it to this day I was six years old and I was a spoiled petted princess I got sent for ballet lessons you know and things like that I mean I was very lucky that mum and dad gave me the opportunity to do that but then this child arrived and I remember saying to my mum can you not send him back I don't like him because he had giant blue eyes fat fat fat little pink cheeks and a mop of blonde curls

it was like a little baby that floated down from a cloud and I hated him absolutely loved him and I used to nip his little fat arms I did I was horrible horrible I was and now we got on brilliantly I mean he still talks about it and how awful I was and now we got on brilliantly I mean he still talks about it and how awful I was but now we got on really really well in fact he's hilarious I really like him even though you know you love your siblings sometimes you don't like them but I do and then Rosie said but what if you'd had a baby and I didn't like him so maybe it was just as well Rosie yes now is it true I couldn't quite believe this when I read this, that you were sacked when you were on maternity leave. Yeah, yeah, I was.

Isn't that not illegal? No, not back then. That was 1994. And I'm freelance, you know, I'm not employed. I'm a freelance person. And yeah, Rosie was born. And I was expecting, I mean, back then, this shows you how nuts it was. She was born in June, and I was going back to work in September, that couple of months later. I know, I know, I know. But if you're freelance, that's what you have to do. And Steve had come down. We decided to settle down south. In fact, very near where we live now, we decided to settle in Cookham, which is kind of past Maidenhead, near, yeah, near Maidenhead.

We just got the call a couple of weeks before I was due to come back. In fact, about a week, I think. And I was getting all ready to come back and thinking, oh God god I haven't lost any of my baby weight who cares because you know they didn't bother breast television they don't bother what you look like certainly back then they didn't and I just got the call to say really sorry we've got anthea turner but you know what thanks and that was that that was that that was it and it was so I was so lucky what I did was back then it was a videotape so I took a VHS of my best bits and you know that under one arm baby under the other and I just went around everywhere asking if you had any any jobs I didn't have any work I didn't have anything

absolutely nothing at all and then in the November when I was starting to think oh in the November I got a call again from GMTV and they said they want to do a mum and baby special because they've got sponsorship for it and they wanted me to do it the sponsor wanted me to do it so I went in on a Tuesday once a week and did a wee mum and baby slot went really well so it went so well that in the January they offered me my show but if that hadn't happened you know it's one of those what ifs if that hadn't happened who knows who knows what would have happened so you don't you don't bear a terrible grudge against anthea turner not at all not at all because actually no no no she's a nice girl and to be honest it worked out well because i had my own show before that i was

going up at three o'clock and i was a bit worried about going back to work with a baby you know when they're tiny it's fine you know you can just carry them around but you know i was always worried about getting older and you know i know i can't take her to school, because I'd have to leave it at school gates at like half four in the morning, which is not good. But I could always pick her up, you know, that's the thing, I could always pick her up from school. And that was very important to me. Because obviously, I can do a lot of work from home, you know, a lot of research from home, and, you know, phone calls, emails, all of that sort of stuff. But yeah, that was hard. That was really hard

which makes me kind of like not take anything for granted you know people say oh you've been doing this for ages you've been doing it for a long time and never take it for granted because it can just be taken away from you in a heartbeat so you just have to make the best of it as much as you can you said earlier that you're not much given to self-analysis and I wonder if that has helped you in a way because you just dusted yourself off and got on with it you didn't think oh I'm really sad this is rubbish why have they treated me like this you just grafted that's true I just got on with it but then again that's down to the work ethic that's down to the mum and dad influence I suppose but yeah it was humiliating

you know I was upset but I didn't say anything I just went okay I took it on the chin I said fine that's telly that's what happens there's no point getting upset about it you just have to go on with it and you know and I'll be honest with you I'll be totally honest with you you know I got the phone call and they said you weren't oh can you come back there was quite a large part of me that wanted to say bog off or words to that effect that's me being polite but I'm not daft and I wanted to do it and it sounded great and and it's all worked out you just never know what's going to happen you just don't does that freelance fear ever leave you no and I speak as a freelancer myself okay it never leaves you so so are you

constantly worried that your next job's your last one and you won't have any money I've stopped being constantly worried about it because you know you know I'm now 62 and I've stopped being really worried about it but yeah you know contract I'm now 62 and I've stopped being really worried about it but yeah you know contract negotiations back in the day I mean even now you know we're only hired that sort of on a yearly basis and nobody is irreplaceable absolutely nobody I mean we know that so yeah there's always a little bit of I mean it used to be a lot worse when I was younger but now I've got a lot more relaxed about it and I do other things as well I think that's really important to do other stuff you know whether it's writing or doing podcasts or whatever you may do I do that as well and I

think that's important to have a lot of different options is important but I do love what I do and while people want to watch it's wonderful because like I say every day is different every single day is different you know people say what do you love most about the job it's the variety and it's it's never losing that curiosity about who it is you're talking to no matter who it is you know it can be the prime minister be somebody in Emmerdale it can be a fashion model it can be you know a massive A-list star it can be so many different things. Who's your favourite famous person to hang out with? I don't really hang out because of my stupid hours, but I adore Craig David.

He is the loveliest man. I've just met him. He is literally the loveliest man in the world, joint equal with our husbands. I mean, you know what? If I was 30 years younger, or indeed, how good a son-in-law would Craig David be? How good would he be? Not only stunningly gorgeous, but he, how good a son-in-law would Craig David be? How good would he be?

Not only stunningly gorgeous, but he's got such a big heart. I've just been reading his book and what shines through every single page is he's good. Very underrated to be a good person. And he is a good person. Years and years ago, I did a comic relief thing where we trekked across the desert in the north of Kenya. And he was there and of course you know he's so super fit I mean he was like lolloping around it was no problem to

him and I was I was really suffering my feet were all horrible and covered in blisters and he saw that I was and we weren't being filmed or anything there was a crew there but at this point there wasn't and he took me aside lifted me up sat me down brought me a cup of tea and took my boots off and sorted out my feet sorted them out covered in blisters and put my shoes back on again and I just thought you are the best guy in the world I've been to see him in clubs would you believe I take the average age up by about you know 100% but I just love him I love his music I love everything about him he is the loveliest man and a joy to talk to and as far

as big you know like sort of actors sort of A-list actors I really like Hugh Jackman oh yes because because no but he's lovely and the reason is as he said to me you know how sometimes you get a wee chat beforehand while they're all setting up and he said look my mum brought me up to be very polite he said and also I have to do all these junkets. I have to do all this. It's part of the job, you know. He said, and either I can sit here and have a laugh or I can sit here and be a pain in the bum. I'd rather have a laugh.

And he's right. He's got to do it. So why not do it and make everybody have a nice time? Everybody around you, all the people. He's a delight to everybody that's working with him. And just, yeah. And he just makes it good fun. He sets the tone, you know. He sets the tone. And that's working with him and just yeah and he just makes it good fun he sets the

tone you know he sets the tone and that's really really important because other people aren't as lovely as that and then everybody has a rubbish time and you think what's the point thank you so much for telling us that I'm so excited yes I just literally just recorded Craig David for a live version of the podcast and I should have asked him all about you if I'd known anyway that is so sweet okay your final failure is that you can't speak any language fluently but I have to say Lorraine I'm going to disagree you can speak English very fluently indeed and that's why you're an amazing communicator but why did you choose this one well because I did Russian at school when I was a kid and I should have kept it yeah it was it was only about three of us that did when I was a kid. That's interesting that it was taught at school. Yeah, it was.

It was only about three of us that did it. I was in a huge comprehensive, it was about over a thousand kids in the school, Claremont High School in East Kilbride. And it was a great school, loved it. I actually really enjoyed school. And yeah, getting the opportunity to learn Russian, which I should have kept up.

Having said that, about 15 years ago, I went to New York to see my friend who was working out there, Siobhan. And Siobhan took me to a Russian vodka bar. And by all accounts, I cannot tell you yea or nay because I can't remember. But by all accounts, I was chattering away quite the thing after vast quantities of vodka. So there you go. So that's the key, obviously.

But wouldn't it be if I had a superpower, if somebody could say to me, what's your superpower? And I could choose, it would be to speak every single language in the world, even, you know, the most remote tribes and the most remote part of the Amazon or wherever I would love to be. Can you imagine if we could all communicate with one another, if we all could speak each other's language, there'd be no more because everybody could communicate and understand each other and realise that we're all actually deep down the same. We just want to be happy. If we've got children, we want to feed our kids and make sure that they're okay and look after the people that we love. Really, you know, that's it. You are a communicator to your core. I wonder, do you ever feel like, actually, I don't want to have a conversation right now or will you always

be the one asking questions no at home I'm quite quiet Steve is the life and soul of the party when we go out I'm quite quiet actually and maybe that's because I do so much chatting yes I do so much talking like whether I'm doing the show or whether I'm talking to my team or whether we're keeping in touch by email or right but usually it's by phone because I like to talk to people rather than just exchange emails I think it's much better and yeah I think probably that I tend to be a little bit a little bit quiet and I don't sort of toot my own horn I'm not very good at that like if somebody asked me like you said oh who's the best person you've interviewed or who's the people you like then of course I'll respond to that but I wouldn't sort of be dropping those names so you need to sort of brush them up with a you know with a wee brush and a shovel

I don't really do that which maybe I don't know maybe that's that's a sort of working class thing again that you don't you don't I think do that I think it's also that it's really important to you to make other people feel at ease so you don't want to make yourself seem removed or exclusive in any way because you're not absolutely no no no no there is partly that and partly just you don't want to sound like a big head or somebody that's bumming all the time you would never sound like that you're such a wonder fun fact Lorraine I also learned Russian at school at school in Belfast yes oh my gosh isn't that phenomenal I loved it yeah I loved it and it would be so useful right now I mean it would be so useful to be able to do but but the thing is in order to do it I would

have to drink a bottle of vodka so that wouldn't really be the right thing you and I need to go out and drink vodka and speak fluent Russian to each other it'd be good wouldn't it that'd be great do you still remember though I have a favourite Russian word. I wonder if you do. Do you have a single word that you like? I'd like to say, I think I love you in Russian is beautiful. Я тебе люблю is a very beautiful phrase.

I just think it's lovely. I really like that. Я тебе люблю. I remember saying that, it's pretty. It's heartbreaking what's going on there just now. It really is because they're amazing people like everything else you know you take the nutter that's in charge and all the rest of the nutters that are round about them the actual russian people are great friendly interesting

and it's just such a shame my favorite russian word is oh that's beautiful what does that mean it means monuments or heritage oh i like that that's beautiful. What does that mean? It means monuments or heritage. Oh, I like that. That's got gravitas, that phrase. Just use that. I've got Russian sweety words, but I wouldn't say them. Do you? Oh, I don't think I've got that. Lorraine Kelly, you are a joy.

You are, as Susanna Reid called you, a legend. Oh, she's fabulous. Genuinely, it's not only been an honor talking to you but it's also just been so easy and that's because of you and I appreciate so much how generous you are but also what a skill it is that you have we see you for who you are and what you do and thank you so so much for coming on how to fail I loved it I absolutely loved it it was great to talk to you what a brilliant conversation amazing conversation thank you thank you so much if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with Elizabeth Day I would so appreciate it if you

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