How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, BONUS EPISODE! How To Fail: Sheila Hancock on stage-fright, self-doubt and being a wartime evacuee

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

Dame Sheila Hancock is one of our most esteemed actresses: her 1966 Broadway debut in Entertaining Mr Sloane earned her a Tony nomination and on TV, she has appeared in everything from Dr Who to Kavanagh QC, in which she starred alongside her late husband, John Thaw. She has also been a semi-regular contestant on the BBC Radio 4 panel game Just a Minute since - wait for it -1967.The 89-year-old Dame Sheila joins me to talk about her crippling stage fright, her failure to enjoy the moment, her memories of being a wartime evacuee and her critical inner voice that means she's only ever able to remember the bad reviews while forgetting all the good ones. Enjoy!--Old Rage by Sheila Hancock is out now: https://www.waterstones.com/book/old-rage/sheila-hancock/9781526647443--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Sheila Hancock @4SheilaHancock (Twitter) @sheilahancocknews (Instagram) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Whenever a guest comes on How to Fail, I always struggle to condense the outline of their lives into an appropriate introduction. But today I really struggled because it is entirely impossible to summarise the wonder of Dame Sheila Hancock in just a couple of minutes. She grew up in London and Bexley Heath, the daughter of a publican and a department store worker. She trained at RADA, where she had to wear a tooth prop to help shed her working class accent. She went on to have an illustrious stage career. Her 1966 Broadway debut in Entertaining Mr Sloan earned her a Tony nomination. On TV, she's appeared in everything from Doctor Who to Kavanagh QC, in which she starred alongside her late husband, John Thor. She's also been a semi-regular contestant on the BBC Radio 4 panel game

Just a Minute since, wait for it, 1967. In 2016, Dame Sheila started writing a memoir that she thought would be a light-hearted collection of musings in her older age. But then Brexit happened and Donald Trump was elected. And then there was a global pandemic and she discovered she was too angry for anything overly upbeat. The result is old rage, an impassioned and funny riposte to modern times, which was published in June and became a Sunday Times bestseller. In it, Dame Sheila writes that success as defined by the world now means little to me. Money, name in lights, even, forgive my ungraciousness, damehood. Ironically, nearing the end as I am, I find that it is completely irrelevant what I personally have or have not achieved for myself. The test is whether I have, like our parents, intentionally or inadvertently passed on something that will

contribute to the future. Dame Sheila Hancock, Sheila, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you. That sounds very pretentious in the context of what's happening at the moment. Well, I spoke that quote at length because it was so well written. There was no way that I could cut it down. And also because it was so profound. And I think that it conveys something that is very apparent when you read Old Rage, which is that you look death in the face. You're not shying away in any sense from writing about it. And I think that that's very admirable. But do you feel that you've got to a stage where you have passed on something that will contribute to the future? We'll start

off with a light question, a lighthearted question. No, I don't think I have really. The only thing I might have done is that I have some fairly activist grandchildren. I've got eight grandchildren and the older ones are already showing signs of rebellion. So that may have come a little bit from overhearing me. But other than that, no, I was talking the other day at a meeting saying I haven't acquired wisdom. The awful thing is that when you get old, people are expecting you to know the answers. And I absolutely don't. I mean, every single day I wake up and I think something different or I'm angry about something or I'm delighted in something different. And the difference when you get older and near death, as I am, is that you're in more of a panic to absorb

all those experiences because you know they're going to go away from you. But other than that, I can't pretend that I think I will hand anything at all on. And that is particularly in the context of how much the Queen has handed on. Here we are, listening to all these amazing things that she did. And I must say, I didn't realise, I've been new to the television, I didn't quite realise the scope of her contribution. And to a certain extent, what I felt about it is that she was a kind of diplomat. Just having a royal visit of somebody from a country that was angry, even somebody like silly Trump, they were terribly impressed just by being with her. And she's known, she must surely have known more people than anybody else

ever, you know, because she knows their fathers and their grandfathers and all that. And her dedication is amazing. It really is. We are speaking in the immediate aftermath of the Queen dying. And I think that is such a beautiful summation of an extraordinary life. And what strikes me about it is that we will never see a Queen again in our lifetimes. And that makes me so sad. And what an extraordinary woman to have been born into that, to never have had a choice but to serve and to serve in that way. And I know that there are complicated aspects to our colonial history, but at this present moment, it does feel appropriate to mark that and to grieve it.

I actually went to Green Park yesterday to leave some flowers, Sheila. And what choked me up most of all was reading the messages that other people had left. She's so meaningful to so many from the youngest child. I must say, she brings us great kudos. I don't know that we're going to, I mean, we're a funny little country now, all on our own virtually. And one realises that the Queen gave us stature. And I think actually, Charles, I think he'll be a good king but you know this novel thing of having a woman in charge I mean I'm old enough to remember the king the old king and you know sitting waiting for him to do his broadcast hoping his stutter wouldn't be too bad and all that and she obviously idolized him and he too was a man who had fame thrust upon him and he dealt with it amazingly a man who was

ill-equipped to be king but somehow supported by the rather bossy queen mother he did manage during the war to be the most amazing one of my lasting memories of the war was during the height of the blitz seeing pictures of the queen Mother in furs and heels and jewels in the bomb damage, visiting people in the East End of London, you know, and the fact that they have kind of been there. I mean, I suppose with all my hatred of lack of equality and the class system and all that, I should be a Republican, but I won't be until I can find there's a better substitute do you know what I mean the alternative is so terrifying we could we're not very good at voting

people in we do end up with some atrocious people at the moment to put it mildly exactly I mean I'd rather depend on hereditary at the moment than I would on our ability to vote. Fascinating. I actually want to pick you up there on that early memory you had, because although you absolutely don't look it, I'm looking at you now and thinking I must ask about your skincare regime, but you do remember the war and you write about being evacuated in old rage. I'm a history geek. And actually, one of my favourite childhood books was about evacuation.

Good night, Mr. Tom. And I'm just desperate to ask you about that experience. It's so rare one gets the chance. What was that like for you? It must have been so deeply unsettling and scary. Yes, it was. It was horrific, actually. It was worse than being in the bombs.

And in fact, my parents brought me home and I was back. I'd rather die with them than without them, quite honestly. But I was billeted. You've got this label on you and your gas masks used to be in a brown box, as it were, over your shoulder. And I remember Dad waving me off at the station with lots and lots of other kids. I remember him crying. I remember seeing him bending over with a handkerchief and thinking, why is my dad doing that? I was, what, eight, seven. And I was billeted on an old couple in the country,

which I didn't know about. I was so frightened of cows and things like that. I'd never experienced them. And I remember there was a toilet at the end of the garden that you had to go down past a dog. And just terrified. And I remember the first night, they tried to be kind to me, but I was sleeping on a leatherette couch in their downstairs room. And then there was a door that led upstairs.

And I soiled the bed. I was obviously so upset. So there I was, seven years old, in a dirty bed with strangers. And that probably was one of the worst moments of my life, actually. They didn't like us. They didn't like the Vackies. They really didn't. And we were a bit grubby and noisy. And the school was very disciplined. And suddenly it was crowded with all these snotty nose kids who didn't know how to behave like that. And we did get bullied. I mean, actually physically bullied. I remember I had to cross a field to get to the school and they used to lay in wait for us to

bash the hell out of us. And that I did learn. I'm a pacifist now, but I did learn to fight back. When do you think your love of performing or this desire to be an actor, when did that start? Does it predate eight years old or does it come after that? No, I did do Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, the seven little people, as we say now, in the bar. My dad worked in pubs. In King's Cross, we were in a pub called the Carpenter's Arms and we lived in the flat above. My mum and dad used to entertain. My mum played the piano and they used to sing things from, I don't know, the Maid of the Mountains and Desert Song and all that. And I would hear them downstairs and hear the poor people who were trapped in the pub clapping. And then my sister went to

Italia Conchis. She was terribly pretty and could dance and everything. And I saw her in Where the Rainbow Ends, which was the show that they used to do at Holborn Empire. And I thought that was rather wonderful. This horrible sister of mine turned into a fairy. And so there was little clues along the way. But then I got a scholarship to a grammar school because at that time it wasn't free. But then I got a scholarship to a grammar school because at that time it wasn't free. And I did St. Joan at school and that gave me a certain amount of approval from people.

And you have to bear in mind that the options for women of my generation were very limited. I mean, you could be a nurse, even going to grammar school. You could be a nurse, very seldom a doctor. You could be a secretary. Lots of places you could not work, the civil service and places like that. If you were married, you had to stop. So it seemed that it was more exciting to go on the stage than be a secretary. And I think that's probably the reason I did it. I could have been a teacher.

I mean, I have to say my teachers wanted me to try for what was called a state scholarship, which got you to Oxford or Cambridge, because I was very clever at school. And they even, one of them went round to see my dad. But we didn't know what university was. I mean, that's hard to believe nowadays. But the only people that have been to university that I knew were my teachers at school. Nobody else, not a single soul in my world had been to university. None of my neighbours, certainly, none of my school friends, parents, nothing. So it didn't seem an option very much in those days. I mean, were I young now, I'd probably take a different path. I would certainly

want to go to university. I'm struck by what you said there, that you realised you got approval for performing. How important is other people's approval to you still? I love it when people are nice to me. I do like it. I'm less worried when they're angry with me now than I used to be. I like it. I'm less worried when they're angry with me now than I used to be. I mean, as you know, my book is full of political statements, particularly Brexit and things like that. And I know that puts a lot of people's backs up still. And that doesn't worry me because I hope I've given a reasoned argument for why I chose to stay. So I don't know. I suppose I do want people to love me and like me. I really love it when I get nice letters and people stop me in the street and say how much they've enjoyed it or how much they enjoyed John.

That is deeply loving of them. But I also know that that can turn, particularly nowadays, you know, with social media and things. If you say one thing wrong, suddenly the press, certainly in the world, can be against you. So you have to bear that in mind. You have to bear in mind that love can be taken away from you when the love is based on not really knowing you. Do you know what I mean? That's really interesting. They have an image of you, but it's not necessarily the nasty me that they know. You started off this podcast by saying you don't feel very wise, even though there's this expectation that the older you get, the wiser you get. First of all, what you just said for me is the epitome of wisdom. But secondly, one of the other things that I hope for in older age is that

sense of knowing myself better and having more self-generated confidence rather than looking for other people to give it to me. Does that come any more easily? No, I always think I'm dreadful, honestly. I still do. I'm always suspicious when people praise me. I think, oh, I't really know or what I don't know I I don't have a lot of self-confidence I really don't about being good I mean my career has been a funny old hodgepodge I mean you were sweet enough to introduce me as though I'm somebody that's had a an impressive career I haven't I've had a real mess of a career you know I've worked for the Royal Shakespeare Company I've directed at the National I've done the real mess of a career. You know, I've worked for the Royal Shakespeare Company. I've directed at the National.

I've done The Rag Trade and Just a Minute and an awful film about St Trinian's. I mean, one of the worst films ever in the history. I don't want to say that. It's disappeared. Do you know what I mean? No, I don't know what you mean. That's not true.

It is true. It is true. I mean, I've done one or two things like Sweeney Todd that were good and I did a couple of good performances at the National but I haven't had shall we say a distinguished career I've had a funny old hot spot of a career and part of my career has made people laugh and do you know now I'm, I almost value that more than the posh work I've done. I think to be able to make people laugh, I go to a lot of stand-up. I love stand-up comedy.

And when I do Just a Minute now, it's a lot of girls and boys who do do stand-up. I so admire them. And then when I go to the shows and I hear people united in laughter that's wonderful wonderful and if I've occasionally done that that really pleases me oh you absolutely have I love you on just a minute it's one of my favorite programs on radio anywhere I've listened to all of my life I've always wondered what the secret is is it talking quite slowly well my secret is actually to enhance the jokes of the other people. Do you know what I mean? There's an unwritten rule that you don't buzz if somebody's telling a good joke, even if they have repeated themselves. And I'm quite good at that. And the

last one I did, I realised that my brain is not as fast as it used to be. I could do a minute without thinking about it. I don't know why I just had that facility to not be able to repeat and all that stuff. But last time I thought I wouldn't. So I thought, oh God, I'm being very boring. But fortunately, Sue, who's now taken over as a chair, and I got a thing going that was quite funny about me saying she was a rotten chair person and her saying how are you being so nasty to me and it really turned into a very funny routine I got away with it but I'm I'm rather nervous of my next appearance whether my brain is up to it anymore before I get on to your failures I want to you, and I know you've been asked this before, but about the title Old Rage, because there is a sense that angry women historically have not been given the

space that they deserve. They've been dismissed or marginalised as shrewish or unhinged in some way, whereas men can be righteous and angry. They can be Batman. Why was it important for you to reclaim your rage? Well, I do get sick of people expecting old people to be benign and contented. And I thought I was going to write a book like that. But you cannot be benign and contented when you end up with a government like we have, or you end up with coronavirus and people dying. And I'm apt to look at the realities of life, which are grim, a lot of them. They really are. And I do a lot of work with schools and things like that. And some of the backgrounds of the children are appalling. The state of our nation at the moment is a disgrace. And we've got to somehow equalize all that leveling up bullshit that they gave. But it is needed.

It doesn't have to be just funny speeches. We need to look at the education generally in this country, particularly now so many kids have fallen behind during lockdown. I do get awfully angry. We've gone into a stage of lying, haven't we? That lying is acceptable, almost acceptable, haven't we that lying is acceptable almost acceptable except it isn't I've been doing a book tour and every time I talk about this nice book reading middle-class people in this country are very upset they really are I mean when you allow them to talk about it when you create an atmosphere in which they can honestly say no this I remember a woman stood up and one of the things I did and she was a lovely respectable looking woman that wouldn't say boo to a goose normally. And she said, everything I have believed in, I no longer trust.

And she listed them, the government, the police, the post office, because, as you know, they betrayed a lot of people that work for them. Religion. And one sort of thought, my God, she's right. And I'm the same. You were taught to respect your betters when we were young. Little girls should be seen and not heard. It was appalling. But nevertheless, we thought that there were people up there that knew if the doctor said gargle with TCP, that would cure you. Now you think, I'm not sure I'm going to take that. I'm going to look it up on Google. I think that is a feeling in the country now. Who do we trust? Which is why we battened on the Queen because we don't really know her at all. Not really, but she seems to be a good woman. And we need a bit of that. We need a bit of that. And maybe there's actually

something about not knowing someone very well, not being invited into the doors of their home and them not sharing everything on social media that actually there's such a lack of that, that we yearn for a slight remoteness. It means that we can trust more. Yeah. Well, that was the cleverness of the Queen, that you never really knew her. She was always there at the important times. Mind you, she did make, we're seeing now, some amazing speeches. She really did. She actually timed them incredibly well.

And she was very honest. I remember when I was a young actress and I began to get very political, I remember my Asians saying, you mustn't talk about politics. They'd ruin your image. Because my image in those days, if I had one, was a tizzy blonde. You know, I was in all those funny sitcoms being, he said, you're going to destroy your career if you talk about politics. And for a long while, I didn't. I didn't. And I didn't stand up to anything. And I had a terrible row at the BBC because there was a sketch I wanted to do and they didn't want me to do because it was very

excessive and all that. And I went right to the top, which in those days was Hugh Weldon, and he let me do it in the audience. And he said, if it goes well with the studio audience, we'll put it out. And it did. And I didn't work for the BBC for 10 years after that. Wow. Yeah.

You just didn't do that. I mean, in those days, the top people were all ex-army. They all seemed to be admirals. And I don't know, they were men anyway, certainly. And it wasn't until Victoria and Dawn and Jennifer and all those people came along and said, no, women aren't like that. Did they manage to break the mould? But it was really I had a show called Now Seriously at Sheila Hancock, which put out very late largely because I complained that they kept giving me silly parts to play and they said all right you can have an hour to do what you like and it's long forgotten but it was a sort of chat show and there were sketches and some boys who were just out of Cambridge

who were sort of John Cleese and all that lot who just come out and they wrote some funny sketches and Pinter and people. It was quite revolutionary at its time, but it was put on very late, very late. Let's talk about your career because you did a classic thing that a lot of people who have a lack of self-confidence and who are incredibly nice and think about how difficult my job might be. You did that classic thing of coming up with lots of failures rather than just the required three, for which I'm very grateful. I've picked three of the six, but I hope we can touch on the other ones along the way. But your first failure is your failure ever to do a good first night due to crippling stage fright. And this fascinated me because that must be so incredibly stressful and yet you kept

on doing it. So can I start by asking what the experience of stage fright is like? Can you describe it to us? What happens? It's really dreadful, actually. It's really, really dreadful. And there aren't many actors who haven't gone through periods when they've had it. I mean, Laurence Olivier famously, when he was doing Othello, got the cast together and said, nobody look me in the face in the show. Imagine how difficult that was because he was so nervous. He couldn't contact. He just had to concentrate and get through it. And you have this awful thing. I mean, I have to say, it really is quite scary to stand in the wings of a show. It really is quite scary to stand in the wings of a show.

You don't have any tools, except there's a lot of words in your head. You hope to God they're going to come out in the right order. So it is quite scary. I mean, when I was doing First Nights, I would spend all the day vomiting and just absolutely out of my mind with fear. And it would certainly go right up until the last minute of going on. And sometimes with me, it continued while I was on stage. Now, a lot of people get stage fright, but once they get on stage, they're OK. But I, for many years, wasn't OK. And therefore, I never really did a good first night it was always

just getting through it and being very tense and it would affect your voice I mean I've done lots of musicals and of course being tense is a disaster for your voice so I don't know why I chose this profession quite honestly because it was years of terror a very well-known actress friend of mine came to me recently who was going through a terrifying period of stage fright and asked me how i got through it and the thing that changed it for me strangely enough was hypnotism and i still if i have a big event to go to i go to a hypnotist just to say to what they do is try to replace the negative thoughts with positive ones. To say, everybody is waiting to see you.

They're really wanting you to be wonderful. Instead of what you think is, God, they're going to hate me. The critics are going to loathe me. I'm going to get terrible notices. I'm going to dry. I'm going to forget the lines. I won't remember that bit of business. You know, your head is full of that.

So what a hypnotist does is force you to push those thoughts aside and start thinking positively. But unfortunately, it was quite some time before I learned that. Are you, do you think, an extreme kind of empath? Because I noticed that when you're talking about world events, it's very hard for you not to ingest that quite personally. And I wonder if also the stage fright, because you're picking up on what the audience might be feeling or thinking before you go on stage. Do you think that's an accurate description? I think that is very accurate, but I'm wrong about the audience because of course the audience are wanting it to be good an audience has paid a lot

of money and wants you to be good so that's negative but yes I agree with you that I I walk down the street and I look at people and think oh god he's having an unhappy time I wonder if I can help and I don't know quite I think it comes from my dad my dad gave me a great sense of duty I am very worried about the world generally the the Ukrainian situation and all that. And I think I do feel it more than some people do. It's kind of mental illness in a way, putting myself too much right into the position. find if something disastrously happens in the world I either am very angry and I mean John used to call it my messiah complex he used to say oh god and he used to say quite rightly that because I rushed in to try to put things right I took away other people's right to solve their own problems do you know what I mean if somebody sold me their marriage was breaking up I'd say come around and have a talk you know all that and he said you know what I mean? If somebody told me their marriage was breaking up, I'd say, oh, come around and have a talk, you know, all that. And he said, you know, you're just making

it too difficult for them to solve their problems. So I think you're right. But I think it's negative thoughts. I think a lot of people who suffer from anxiety, what they have to do is to stop thinking the negative things and substitute it with positive things. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world.

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Mother, a mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I want to come back to John in a minute. You write about him so beautifully,

but first I want to ask you why you kept on going on stage. What were the good things? There must have been something that you got out of it that kept you facing that terror, or was it simply, well, this is what I do. I don't know how to do anything else. Well, I think it is that really. Once I committed to to it I couldn't really back out of it if I had wanted to become a barrister or whatever I thought I might want to be I had to go to university after school and do all that and I chose to go because I got a scholarship I was always dependent on scholarships and I got a scholarship to RADA and I went to RADA where I had a miserable time because it was like a finishing school at that time you know there's lord this and lady that learning to speak and I went with this awful accent and I did spend

all my time trying to I remember it's a word I still can't say but that whole lesson was spent with the rest of the class being hysterics because I couldn't say door I said door meaning you know the place you go yes and I still say door but it had to be door and it's true that they gave you a tooth prop yeah to open up my mouth I used to have to do and all the voice classes I had this problem in my mouth you know I just was out of my depth there it was I'd left home and living in London and it was very odd. And I didn't learn anything really very much at RADA. And I didn't get any wonderful jobs at the end of it because I had a lousy part in the end of term show. So I started in twice nightly rep in Oldham. And I think the first place were Reefer Girl, Mars Bitter Brass

and something else. I mean, it wasn't exactly an illustrious start to my career. The only lovely thing that happened in Oldham was in the next theatre was Bernard Cribbins. And we struck up a wonderful friendship. And he was an ASM there and I was a lowly juvenile in the Theatre Royal. And our theatres backed on to one another and we became very friendly and encouraged one another, said, don't worry, one day you'll be a star. What's your natural accent? Well, my natural accent is what I'm talking now, now,

but my natural accent would be sort of a London accent like that, you know, sort of bit off and rather nasty vowel sounds and not very good consonants and not as nice as Cockney, just a sort of London accent. Now, of course, all accents are appreciated. They really are. So you don't have to have received pronunciation, although it's quite useful, I think, to learn received pronunciation because a lot of plays do demand it. We've been talking about stage fright and obviously as the name says that's a form of fear. I wonder how much fear has played a part in your life because you've been through so bloody much. You've been through some of the worst things that life could possibly throw at

you. Both your husbands dying of the same form of cancer, your beloved second husband, John Thor, you write in the book about the grief that you feel still that your heart lurches when you see an old couple holding hands in the street. And you have survived. And not only that, but you seem to have your sense of belief in humanity still intact. So I suppose that's a very long-winded way of asking you how you do that, how you keep surviving and how you don't live your life in the shadow of fear. I do think fear is at the bottom of my life. I mean, I think the war, I think a lot of people of my generation,

my first reaction is fear. You know, you can't be bombed and you can't be landed in a strange place on a leatherette sofa and be bullied and all that when you're a baby child without learning that that's what life's like and learning to fight back. But that's what you learn. You learn, I'm going to get through this I will either punch them or I'll go another way around but I will get to that school they're not going to stop me and there's a sort of grim determination which I still have and it forces me to sort of carry on although I'm frightened of a lot of things when they happen to society. I am frightened for society at the moment in this country.

I don't think I ever remember us being quite so divided, but then maybe I just didn't notice it. And some of the values that we had, I mean, funnily enough, the Queen's death is bringing a lot of that back. But we are a racist society. There's no doubt about that. I see that with the children I work with. And we are an unequal society. There are not enough opportunities for everybody. I mean, I believe from the depth of my soul that everybody is talented. I mean, I'm a Quaker, and one of our main beliefs is there is that of God in everyone, meaning that everybody, however awful they seem on the surface, has that of God in them. And from that belief, we have a responsibility to everyone, everyone, whoever they are. And it seems to me a job that never will end. You know, it's got to go.

And now with our planet as well, we have a responsibility towards this amazing world that we've got and the amazing talents that we have to save it. We don't want to be a dead star revolving around. We've got to do something about it. And I don't think enough people quite realise that, or are engaged with it. Or I think people are beginning to think, oh, well, it's nothing to do with me. They're a load of rubbish. They're not representing me. What do I do? You know, that's the thing that comes out in my book tour. You get people standing up and saying, what can we do about it? And one of my answers is just pester your MP like mad. If there's something you're worried about, send hundreds of letters so that they know, because

I'm so sick of hearing people saying, the country wants us to do this, that and the other. And you think, I don't, and I'm part of the country. We've got to be activists again, all of us. We've got to want a better world and fight to make it happen. How do you get through grief? How do you cope with the love of your life dying? Well, I don't think you do, really. You never quite get over it. Life is a continued change, isn't it? All the way through, you're adapting and changing.

You're young and then you're a teenager and then you get married or you don't and you discover your sexuality, whatever your gender. And then somebody dies or a friend falls out with you. You have to constantly adapt all the time. I've constantly readjusted my life. I did after my first husband died. Then after John died, I was absolutely laid low by it because he'd been ill for some time, which was horrid. But then after a while, I thought I'm older than him. I was 10 years older than him and I'm lucky enough to have a life. I can't spend it moping. I can't spend it being sorry for myself. I either spend the rest of my life remembering him, and that's a viable choice, you know, have lovely memories of him, or I do something new. And that's what I chose to do. And I had written one book, but I decided to write more. Somebody threatened to write a book about John, which I worried about because John was an alcoholic and I wanted to tell it my way or the true way. And I got down to that. And I got down to contacting my friends again, because my relationship with John had cut me off from friends to a certain extent, because it was a very intense relationship.

And I just worked on trying to discover a new version of me that wasn't the wife of John Thorpe. And that was quite difficult, quite difficult, certainly work-wise as well. But I was lucky because parts came along that were lovely to do. And also I'm very lucky in my profession because I'm constantly in contact with young people. I've just been doing a drama series. And it's so lovely to be in a unit with people who forget that you're old. You know what I mean? They start by treating you with respect.

I can't bear being treated with respect. And they start with that. And sort of if they go to the pub, they say, well, you want one to come, will you? Yes, I do one to come will you yes i do want to come it's just wonderful to hear their side of things and i say with my grandchildren now getting grown up and it's wonderful to hear their young view of what's going on in the world so i'm very blessed because some old people get trapped talking about hip replacements and when they're going to die and all that because all their friends are old.

I mean, I imagine that can happen in some old people's homes, that the only people you meet are very busy care workers or other old people. And that must be so boring. I couldn't bear only to meet me. I'd love to only meet you. But yes, I understand where you're coming from. And you mentioned that you're a Quaker. I'm not sure what the Quaker belief is about an afterlife, but do you believe that there is greater meaning? Do you believe that you feel John's presence still? Do you believe that you'll be reunited?

Do you have the reassurance of that? No, there's no Quaker belief of an afterlife.'s quakers have got so many different beliefs but nor me i mean i can't i don't i can't believe in something i can't prove if there is i'll let you know you know i'll try and send a message back because if you could thank you i'm quite prepared to think that there is something but it won't be anything that we can comprehend. That would be silly. It can't be meeting up with all the people you knew. I mean, that would be so banal. It's got to be something amazing that we don't know about. I don't think about it a great deal.

I think also from what I've seen and what I feel, I get a lot of pain, as I think the Queen did towards the end. I have a thing called rheumatoid arthritis. You get what you call flares where you are in agony. Honestly, you really are. And if I have one of those, I do think I won't be sorry to go. I'm getting a bit tired, you know. I can understand there will be a time when I'll think,

okay, I've had enough of this. Let's go and see what next that's sort of what I feel about it at the moment I've got so many things going in life that I don't want to go particularly that I'm quite prepared that it's time to go soon you know I can't have that many more years I can't possibly I I accept that a few years ago I thought no that's not going to happen to me I'm not going to die because I don't I'm not even going to think about that but now I have absolutely accepted that I am going to die and I'm kind of dropping little seeds in my grandchildren's ears to let them realize that that's going to happen and I'm

trying to tidy up my affairs I'm not so good at that because I'm so muddled but but I'm trying to see that my children don't have a horrible burden after I've gone of sorting out wills and things like that but I'll be sorry it's so lovely the world and that's also why I get so anguished when we say it I love it I love it. I love it. I mean, lockdown made me really conscious of nature. I regard myself as a city girl, as I say, when I was evacuated, I was so frightened of cows. And I'll still go miles around to avoid a horse or a cow. But I now also love having my feet on the earth. I'm very interested in birds. I've never noticed birds. I mean, it's not awful, but I never have noticed birds. I tell in the book, I was walking around and I heard this amazing bird song because everything was so quiet, wasn't it, during lockdown. And I thought, God, that's lovely.

And I stopped to listen to that. And then in the distance, I heard the same song being repeated by another bird. And it was a blackbird. And another blackbird, which I couldn't see, was trying to copy the tune. Darling, it was a moment of belief, utter belief. Yes. Yeah. Because you thought, this is mine. I rushed back and Googled it. And sure enough, they do mimic.

Some blackbirds do try to mimic. But this first bird was doing a bit of Stravinsky. I mean, it was a very complicated melody. And the other one you could see was going tweet, tweet. Oh, I can't remember that bit. It was lovely. Absolutely lovely. Now, I wouldn't have done that at all before lockdown. I wouldn't. That actually brings us beautifully onto your next failure. And it reminds me of a passage in the book where you're talking about John and how he always used to appreciate and contemplate the stars at night and he would spend half an hour sort of looking at the night sky outside and you never got the point of it and then after he died

you're like why didn't i and now you say that you do contemplate the stars more but your second failure is your failure to enjoy the moment yeah but. But I think that's such a huge, so many people will relate to that. And to hear you say that at the age of 89, as you are now, is actually a very reassuring thing in many ways. But tell us why you chose this failure. Well, because I thought I did appreciate the moment. Do you know what I mean? I sort of think, oh, that's lovely.

And then I move on but I now I tell people to do this I used to be chancellor of a university and I used to say it in my final speech to them I've made them say because it's obviously a very happy moment when you receive your diploma and your mum and dad or parents whatever they are there and I said, look, let's all say together, I am happy now. And really relish, I am happy now. And I tell people to actually not just think, oh, that's nice. But actually stop and think, how do I feel? My God, I actually feel really good.

And that is so beautiful. Really take time to appreciate the moment a girl came up to me after one of the book things and said she'd lost in quick succession her father and her brother and she was desperate she was in tears and said what can i do and i said look try this try the i am happy now thing if you get a little tiny moment mark it and then tomorrow there might be two moments like that and then there might be three and you might learn how happiness feels because I think when you're deep in grief you forget how to be happy I used to say to John sometimes because he used to get very depressed, certainly in his drinking days, I used to say, act being happy, because he used to get terribly depressed. Act it, act it, and then you might feel it. And I think sometimes that's true. I mean,

like with this illness that I have, you get terrible fatigue, and the inclination is to put your feet up. It's disaster. You have to walk. You have to go for a walk and get your body going. And sometimes after about a 20 minute walk, you feel a lot better. So it's using the moment, not even being happy in the moment, but being conscious of the moment being valuable. And it's probably something to do with getting older. Conscious of the moment being valuable. And it's probably something to do with getting older. The moments are less for me now.

So I really am trying to discipline myself to say, I'm going to relish this bit. I'm going to have a cup of tea and I'm going to sit and I'm going to enjoy having a cup of tea. I'm not going to be thinking, I should be writing that article. I should be getting this. I should be getting this. Do you know what I mean?

It's terribly difficult. But I think we've learned it a bit during lockdown. Yes. I love that idea of using the moment. I find that has unlocked something in me even now because being in the moment suggests to me, in my workaholic tendencies, that I'm wasting time. But you're using it by acknowledging it.

That's brilliant. Yeah, and use it to look around you. Use it to look at that colour. Use it to feel that texture, smell that smell. A lot of people say basque diem or whatever it is, but they don't really do it, not really. So what I'm trying to do is actually stop this funny thing. I've got this blood pressure

thing on me that she has been constantly monitored yes I'm recording this podcast with like a blood drip or something yes it's a funny thing that takes my blood pressure every half hour so that they can see it because it ricochets all over the place because I obviously because my blood pressure goes from 200 over something down to nothing virtually I'm all over the place and I really shouldn't be at my age I should be calming down what's the matter with me what is the matter with me I think my dad my dad instilled that you you should look after everybody. He was a great believer in that. Maybe that was part of it.

I don't know. What about your mum? My mum put up with an awful lot. My dad was very erratic. You know, alcohol has followed me through my life. And we lived in pubs. And she was an amazing, solid, reliable woman who was frightened for me all the time. I mean, she left school at, what, 14?

Would nowadays be an amazing businesswoman, given the opportunity. She worked in a department store and she started a cafe there and she had a little library, all her ideas and invention. This woman was so business-minded but we were the most important thing in her life I don't know how they managed women of that generation and when you think we used to do the washing she had horrible wash boiler thing and she a ringer you know I used to help her wringing out the things and then we'd fold them and then we'd iron them and then we'd iron them with terrible irons that were on the on the hob you had to heat them up and hold them with a rag and then heat the next one up and she held down a job I mean when she worked in the pub

she worked behind the bar with dad and then she worked in the shop six days a week and she made all my clothes when I got to grammar school they couldn't afford the uniform so she made it even my green serge knickers she made I mean extraordinary woman quietly extraordinary I remember my dad because he was so huge but when I look back and think of my mother she was amazing do you think you were influenced by her extraordinary capabilities and her ability to look after others when it came to your marriages no no I wasn't like that at all no I was hopeless I still am I mean I one of my failures was I can't cook I mean I Sheila I've never related to anything so much.

So just specifically your failure is your inability to cook and entertain. I was reading about it in your book and I was like, that's me. It's the bit where I can't just whip something up with some pomegranate seeds. And I always order from Otelenghi as well. Costs about 500 pounds. I don't return things do you know what I mean people have me around for a lovely meal and I'm sitting there thinking gosh I can't have some back because I'm so bad at it even if I manage to rush it up a meal I'm a nervous wreck I mean I can hardly talk I'm so frightened if I try to do a roast the potatoes

are always down hours before they should be and everything's cold. And yet I have friends. I have a friend who lives next door, but one to me, Delina. She does amazing, simple meals, nothing elaborate, just good ingredients. And she looks like a princess, not a hair out of place. She gives you lovely drinks. I mean, it's such a gift to be able to do that. And it doesn't have to be all middle class and cocktails. I mean, some people just entertain very well by having fish and chips.

But I suppose I could do that, couldn't I? I've got people who like fish and chips. That would be amazing. When I asked that question about looking after someone in your marriages, I suppose I didn't mean putting the roast on. I meant emotionally. Because I do feel the sense that I get from you is that you actually really did you put some of your own needs on hold in order to care emotionally for both your husbands but also the blended family that you created you've got three daughters it

wasn't straightforward yes how important was that for you to emotionally it was very important that my what is my stepdaughter became my daughter and and I'm best friends with her mother that was very important to me when John and I got together I wouldn't have her left out and she's always been absolutely in the family. And Sally, as I say, is one of my best friends. That's John's first wife. Amazing. Amazing woman. She's one of the women that threw things at Bob Hope in the Miss World protests. Yeah, in the Miss World protests. She's a socialist historian. I'm full of admiration for her.

I was needed. I need to be admiration for her. I was needy. I need to be needy, obviously. I've been involved with two gentlemen who have addiction problems and a father. And I'm drawn to that, obviously, which is just as needy as them in a way. Interesting. I need to have my Messiah complex. I need to be rushing around saving people because I can't save myself. It's very odd. Both my husbands were the centre of my life, without a shadow of a doubt. And everything revolved around them, which my dad did with my dad. You know, dad was the centre of the family. They were in those days. But things have changed now. I mean, my daughters' husbands are absolutely involved

with their children and everything, everything. I mean, there's much, much more equality than there was. Did you ever think, why me? Why has this happened to me? Why have my two husbands died decades apart from exactly the same form of cancer of the esophagus like why has there ever been a moment of that no never never it doesn't occur to me it is me gentlemen I mean it's life my life is a lot better than a lot of other people's that I come across

everybody has awful things in their life I mean god there are some people who are crippled for their entire lives and have children with disabilities and carers that I meet. Their whole life is caring. I did a film recently, well, a few years ago, climbing a mountain. It was called Edie and it was about a woman who'd been a carer all her life and latterly of a man that she didn't love at all.

And when he died, she was released and she decided to climb a mountain. But in doing that, I did speak, doing the research, I did speak to carers and they have no life. I mean, if you're caring somebody who's disabled, that is your life. I was very involved with a charity where we used to give carers a week off. We managed to get the person they were looking after into some sort of home, and then we gave them a week in London, relaxing and being with other carers.

But unfortunately, the funding collapsed and we had to give it up. But, you know, there are people living anguished lives, and I don't think any of them say, why me? I don't think people do say, why me, do they? If you do, it's very odd. If I may, I think you're an extraordinary person. And I think that there is a resilience that comes with older generations that maybe some younger generations don't have as much

knowledge of. And that's understandable because they haven't been as bruised or bashed around by life. So potentially there's more capacity there to feel that things are unfair. But I think as you started off this interview talking about when you have a very early experience, like evacuation in the middle of a world war, then that gives you a sense of perspective and a sense of grit. And as I say, a sort of fundamental belief in the wonder of life. And I think that that's admirable and so wonderful for people to hear

who maybe don't feel like that. Let's go on to your final failure. I don't think it will surprise anyone who's been listening that you forget the good reviews and you always remember the bad reviews. That's your failure. Yeah, yeah, it is. It is.

I mean, actually, I'm less concerned with either of them nowadays. But yes, I can quote. There was one when John and I first appeared in a play together. His review was, I dreaded his every entrance. Mine was something about she's unendurable to the ear and unbearable to the eye. It was something she loved. And I have to the ear and unbearable to the eye. Sheila! And I have to say that this was a wonderful old critic called Harold Hobson

who used to work in the Sunday Times. And it was a silly play that we were doing. So what about love? It was a sort of boulevard comedy. And obviously some of his fellow critics said, Harold, why did you go quite so mad about that play? It's just a silly play. So he came again and he started his notice by saying,

I was right about Pinter, I was right about Beckett, but I was wrong about Leonard Webb, which was the lovely writer of our play. And then, of course, I became known as Hobson's Choice by all my friends. And he then said that we were magic and all that. I mean, you wouldn't find many critics doing that. No, good for him.

He was a very honourable man, I must say. But yeah, that one's engraved on my heart. On the whole, you just think they're coming from a place that you don't understand. I mean, some of them are absolutely justified. When you're doing a play, towards the end, there's a bit of you sometimes knows that it's not great, but you convince yourself in order to get on as a team,

you convince yourself it's the best thing since sliced bread. You go in thinking, that's a bloody good play, and all this, that, and the other. And then when it's absolutely condemned, you still say, they're wrong, they're wrong. But a year later, you condemned you still say they're wrong they're wrong but a year later you think no they're actually right it was rubbish it's absolutely rubbish so you know you it's very difficult when you're criticized to judge it I think also probably difficult when you do believe in your own performance and someone comes in and says oh no that was rubbish

I find that very difficult because I also write books and when I believe in something and I've put lots of effort into it and I don't think it's rubbish it's not war and peace but it's not rubbish and then someone comes and it feels like I've been deliberately misinterpreted and I want to be able to say no that's not what I. And this is what I was doing. Yes. I think that's the worst. That's the worst. When they say something that is blatantly untrue. You know, if they make up their mind that they want to do a nasty review, then they'll come up with any old thing. And sometimes or often they're unfair. They really are unfair. And you do think, oh, I'd love to say to him look that's

not fair that was irony I didn't mean that you should you're taking it out of its context well it's not worth it I mean it's fish and chip paper and hardly anybody reads papers anyway but what about Amazon reviews because you must get Amazon reviews now for your books do you not read them I don't look at them no no I don't the most interesting reviews I get from people who've read it who come to my book things events and then you know that's quite a good discussion so did you learn to cope with bad reviews by saying to yourself well it's ephemeral and no one will remember this no I didn't read them for many years I didn't read them I mean sadly if a play is absolutely slated then the atmosphere backstage is obvious and you

do and if you direct you have to read them because you've got to help your actors through it because they've got to get on the following night you know and sometimes it's as bad as if it's a good review you know I mean I remember the very first big rave reviews was in a Joan Littlewood show I did. Make Me an Offer, it was a musical, and it transferred to the West End. And I had one little number, and it stopped the show, as they say. And people were cheering, and you were allowed to talk to the audience in Joan's productions.

I said, well, I don't know anymore. I can't do anymore, and all this, that and the other. And it was headlines and Overlight Star and all that. And I heard about this and I saw it on the headlines and I was really worried about going on the following night, thinking, what did I do that they liked? Why have they said that? I can't do it again.

And actually, Joan was amazing because she knew I'd be like that and she came into the wings of the theatre and hugged me I can't do it again. And actually Joan was amazing because she knew I'd be like that. And she came into the wings of the theatre and hugged me. And she whispered in my ear, she said, you're in a nasty, dark forest and out there is love and light. And she put me on the stage. I love that. It was absolutely right. You know, it's a welcoming place.

Don't be frightened of it. But what great life advice for anyone suffering from a dark forest of anxiety. If you walk outside, just imagine there's love and light. It is. It is. It's a good thing to sort of curl up in a ball and then open up. Sheila, we've been talking a lot about other people's opinions of you and I wonder if I can bring

this wonderful conversation to a close by asking what review you, Sheila Hancock, would give Sheila Hancock? Oh God, I couldn't possibly think of anything. She tried, I think

I say. She cared. I think probably she cared I think I probably yes she cared and what do you think looking back on your 89 years that failure and its shadow twin success have taught you I don't think I've learned a lot from it except to grit my teeth and get through it. Both success and failure and life. I'm not a great one for learning lessons. My memory of what's happened in the past is very vague. You know, when I write my books, I have to really look at my diaries and research what I was feeling or what I was doing at that particular time. When it's over, it's over. In my personal life, I haven't learned as much as I should, is what I should say, darling.

But my darling, that's so enlightened. That's the biggest lesson of all, is that you don't dwell and you are able, therefore, to move, to keep moving, to keep changing, to keep adapting, to keep living, to keep adapting, to keep living, to keep growing, to keep being the wonderful presence that you are in different iterations. And I think that's so inspiring. That's the ultimate lesson probably is that there are no lessons. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm endlessly curious. That's quite good as to what, that's why even death, I'm curious, what is it going to be like? And let's

hope I live the moment and I'm conscious of it. I wish I could be wiser. I wish I could come up with something that's going to help people. But all I can say is I'm still here and I'm still surviving. And all the people that are going through dreadful times, it will pass. Everything does, it will pass. That's the best possible note to end on. She tries, she cares, she's curious. And for me, Sheila Hancock, you are forever a wonder. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you very much. Bless you. Thank you very much.