How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, BONUS EPISODE! How To Fail: Trinny Woodall on single parenthood, business failure and the empowerment of her 50s

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

TW: discussions around suicide, infertility and miscarriageTrinny Woodall has been part of my life for years - even if we had never actually, well...met. Like many of you, I was riveted by the success of the makeover TV programme she presented with Susannah Constantine, What Not To Wear. Later, I would start buying Trinny London products and became mildly obsessed with their quality and efficacy (my make-up routine is now approximately 95% quicker). When she took to social media, I watched her Instagram styling videos looking for brilliant fashion tips. All in all, I felt we were friends even though she had no idea of this fact.I'm not alone: many of you have requested Trinny as a guest and now, finally, I'm thrilled to oblige. In person, she is as frank, funny and real as you would expect. But what I didn't expect was the generous gift of her incredible honesty - we talk about how she navigated everything from business failure to addiction. We talk about her experiences with IVF and miscarriage. And she tells us about the death by suicide of her former partner and how she was left fearful of failing her daughter as a single parent. It's a BEAUTIFUL conversation and my love for Trinny has grown exponentially since (plus, we have now actually met in person and I can confirm she's wonderful).--If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed on today's episode, contact Samaritans via phone, for free, on 116 123 or email [e-mail]--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Trinny Woodall @trinnywoodall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Trini Woodall was born the youngest of six children and sent to boarding school as a child. She was told she'd make a good secretary and to limit her ambitions accordingly. Although her background was privileged, it was also challenging. Her family went through money issues when she was in her teens. In her 20s, Woodall fell into addiction and substance abuse, largely, she says, to mask her lack of confidence. She went to rehab and eventually got sober at 26. lack of confidence. She went to rehab and eventually got sober at 26. She started out her career as a city trader before moving into marketing and then into fashion. Along with her friend Susanna Constantine, she wrote a weekly style column for the Daily Telegraph before making the leap into TV. And what a leap it was. What Not To Wear was one of the most influential shows of the early 2000s,

attracting millions of viewers, and I was one of them. And it spawned several best-selling books. In her 50s, Woodall made another career pivot, this time into makeup. She founded Trinny London in 2017, and I own several stackable Trinny eyeshadows and wear her makeup every single day. I'm wearing it right now. It really is brilliant, and I promise no oneable Trini eyeshadows and wear her makeup every single day. I'm wearing it right now. It really is brilliant, and I promise no one paid me to say that. The brand recently expanded to skincare. When asked in a recent interview what she'd say to her 20-something self,

Woodall responded, I think she'd say, I think she'd say, thank God I lost my insecurity. And thank God that your 50s are better than your 20s. Trini Woodall, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. That was very nice introduction. I genuinely love your makeup. That's all I'm wearing.

Lovely to hear that. And I'm gratified that you have, because I speak to many people who have or haven't tried it so it's so nice to speak to somebody and they've had that experience. Yes and I really really value how practical it is because recently with all the travel chaos with flying I've been striving to fly everywhere with carry-on only and your stackable pots make that so easy so thank you. so easy. So thank you. Good. Glad to hear from you. I wanted to start the introduction that way and end it that way, because for me, it really shows how resilient you are and what a mistress you are of reinvention and career pivots. Have you always been like that? Have you always been able to change according to the circumstances and to make a success of something that for other people would seem like a really serious failure? I think it's very interesting the difference between reinvention and evolution,

because reinvention doesn't maybe suggest you're taking what you've learned into the future. doesn't maybe suggest you're taking what you've learned into the future. And to me, evolution does. So when I look at my journey, I probably, Elizabeth, think it's how I've evolved as a person and to an outside world. It's like reinvented. She used to do fashion. Now she does beauty. That's a reinvention, which it is. But I think you get to a stage that if something isn't working, you've got and you have in you that passion to do something to change the world or to change how people think or to help people you then think well how else can I do it and there are definitely moments where you are so disheartened by what you have not achieved that you set out to achieve in that period or you feel like in the instance when I

you know stopped being on TV in England and nobody wanted to have us on TV in England because there were other more exciting people who felt fresher, that kind of picking yourself up and thinking, okay, what do I still have to offer? And what do I need to develop and evolve to be something that's exciting? And there's a kind of mix of both. It sounds like you're very honest with yourself then. I am. I don't know if I am all the time, because sometimes, you know, I can walk around deluded about certain things. So I can be hard on myself in terms of what I haven't yet achieved or what I feel I should be doing more of. I can think I'm doing some things better than I do until somebody says, hey, Trini, I don't know if you are. So yesterday I was in a situation where

I had to really challenge myself on how I was as a CEO, you know, how I was turning up as a CEO and what can I do to improve how I do that? That is an ever evolving journey when you get to be a CEO for the first time at 50, because you're bringing a lot of experience of life with you and you're learning about managing and delegating to a team. Whereas up to that point in my life, I felt responsible for every action and every thought I had. And it becomes very different when you grow a business because you are entirely responsible for guiding the direction of that business. But the execution in the guiding of what you want to achieve is done by many people. And your trust in how they do it is integral to how the business grows.

That's so difficult then. Because so how did you have to challenge yourself yesterday? You mentioned that there was a specific instance. Is it to do with managing people? Because that's something that I really struggle with. I very much struggle with the need to be liked, but also having to have business boundaries in place. Yeah, I think it's about learning to work with different characters. And one thing I know I am. Like one thing that I'll never not know, and it's one of my talents, is that I can read a room and understand what somebody's thinking, even if they don't want to admit it. I kind of know it. Because when you work for a long time, where like in TV over 20 years,

one of the things you've got to learn how to do really quickly is to create an intimacy in a relationship so you understand what that person's thinking and not being able to say and you want to try and help them get it out. That's kind of like the best skill to have when you do makeovers and also knowing how to dress them but it's that fundamental skill if you watch something and it's an engaging program it's because that's in there there's an intimacy created. So in this situation yesterday, it was about being vulnerable to try and allow somebody else in the room to be vulnerable, you know, and we will always come across instances like that where we can either just be the kind of

strong boss or we can try and show some vulnerability which allows somebody else to open up. And that doesn't always go according to plan you know but it's not weakness to be vulnerable and it's really important it was just a very emotional experience yesterday which I'm still feeling it's like you know when you have an unbelievably good cry and it's quite therapeutic or you have an incredibly strong emotional situation and it drains you but you feel like that sort of very heavy day for four days and suddenly it rains and it's much better afterwards it's kind of that great clarity today actually as a result of this and it's about sometimes you need to push those emotional situations so that cards are really laid on the table so that you can then just let it out wake

up the next day, have great clarity, and then have the vision. Like today, I have very specific things on, which are all about the future of the business and something else as a project I'm doing. And I need to bring my best brain to the table today in what I'm doing. So doing this is nice, actually, in the middle of my two really important meetings today, because it gives me a chance to remember what I have to offer, because that's a little bit of what we're discussing. Yes. Trini, that's so beautiful how you just put it. And it's everything that I believe about vulnerability actually being the source of strength and connection and solidarity. And I think that's very brave of you. And you basically described having an emotional hangover and then

waking up that day when you're like, I'm no longer hungover. Hooray. Let's just talk quickly about what not to wear. I was a devoted viewer. And many of those programs, I mean, I know we're in a different TV era now. But many of those programs were deeply moving because clothes can be so important. They can be armour, they can be a misplaced defence mechanism. What really sticks in your mind from those programmes? Is there one particular exchange that you always remember?

There's more than one, actually, because, you know, the original What Not To Wear we made in England for BBC, and it was three or four seasons, I can't remember. And it was kind of very sharp edit, have a hierarchy, 360 mirror, wow, secret filming, lots of kind of points that you push in TV to keep the attention of the viewer. So quite sort of black and white. Undress I made with ITV and it was about going into a couple who had had difficulties and working out if they could learn to love themselves again. Totally different story. Maybe one that people weren't ready for, but I so enjoyed making that because you felt you had an impact. And all of those those stories I remember every single one because they were ones you know husband and wife wife gets breast cancer can't then undress in front of her husband for

the five years after and it's the journey of how can you allow yourself to feel your husband still loves every part of you and how can we help you get there and how can we help the husband let the wife know that it's so irrelevant to him what's happened to her he still loves her profoundly those things move you and they stay with you so I do remember those a lot and I remember that the most important thing for me was somebody would emotionally move forward if they decided when we did a revisit show on what not to wear and they were wearing 50% of what they used to if I felt felt their headspace had changed, I felt we'd succeeded. And then after that, when we stopped working in England, we had a magic knicker company. We had a Spanx company. And the company in France set who, you know, we worked with said, can you make a show in Belgium? Suzanne and I were like, well, nobody's working with us in England. We'll do it.

So we made this tiny show. It was really stressful to make. You know, they had a sponsor for the show that was clothing sponsor at Compromise, our creative integrity. It was really challenging on many levels. We did the show. But anyway, the people who distributed it took it to MIPCOM and 14 territories bought the rights. And, you know, our agent called up and said they bought the rights. And I said, fine, do we get any money? And they went, no, they want you to go to those countries to make the shows. And because we weren't making anything in England, we thought, why not? And also we had mortgages to pay we were you know main breadwinners in our family and we needed to go out and earn money and at the moment in England we weren't earning money

so we did the shows and that journey for me was the most interesting journey of all the makeovers I did and it was the most of the knowledge I gained that I brought in the business of Trinidad because what it did is it took me to many countries with different cultures and skin tones and ages and attitudes towards women, from India to Poland to Australia to Israel, America, Scandinavia, lots of countries. And in each of those countries, whatever the religion might be, or, you know, in India, I dress a lot of Hindu women, Muslim women. In Israel, I was dressing Orthodox Jewish women and very liberated women there was this common theme of we get to a place sometimes in our life where we get stuck and how can we move forward and so I've always carried that and thought how can you move somebody forward it might be the most smallest thing that a girl was the star of her class at university and she goes into a job and she suddenly feels tiny fish in huge pond and

who is she you know you might have a woman who has got to a stage in life where she has many people around her who all want her to be a certain type of woman and in that she loses sight of who does she actually want to be and present herself to the world. And so, so many of those women were incredibly powerful stories and stories I will remember always, because they were women having to make a huge shift in their life. And where do you think this drive of yours comes from? I mean, if I were going to play COD psychologist for a minute, the fact that you were sent to boarding school at such a young age I think you were six you were also the youngest of six children

was there part of you that felt a lack of confidence in your own space in the world that wanted to feel better and that therefore wants to make other people feel better would that be fair profoundly right on every level I would say a little bit because um yeah profoundly right on every level because going to school, it was a very different era. This is the 60s. But I didn't have a close relationship with my parents because they had a very old-fashioned approach to bringing up children. And one of those was also that boarding school was an option at quite a young age, which you look back on now and I think I thought of Lila at six and a half. Would I ever send her to school? You've got to be kidding.

I don't blame my parents. That's how it was. But it did definitely make me feel, what can I do to make people like me? And at school, I wasn't academic at school. And I was quite good at acting. I wasn't really good at anything else. I got very bad O-level and A-level results. And I was terrible at sport. And I was sick a bit. So I couldn't be in at school you're kind of there's kind of academic sport or sort of drama so drama I had a win on but I wanted people to like me there was probably an element of being rejected by elements of my life and so I found those first years of school quite painful I had to when I moved school I stayed down a year so I'd kind of struggled to really make friends at 10 11 when I moved school, I stayed down a year. So I kind of struggled to really make friends at 10, 11, when I moved to another school that my sister was at.

And then because my academic leave was really bad, the people I'd painstakingly for the first time in life made friends with moved to the next year up. And I had to start over. I remember that time I felt very challenged by that. And working out who my friends were. And to begin with, it was just to have a friend. working out who my friends were. And to begin with, it was just to have a friend. And then it was actually getting that little bit more confidence thinking, is this the friend that I'm really getting on with? Or actually, is it just for the sake of having a friend? So there was a lot of quite lonely feelings until I was probably about 15. There was a feeling of loneliness.

All my brothers and sisters had kind of left the home you know so I'd see them in holidays but not really during school that much so I did want to always have something that people would like about me so I was quite good at sort of looking at people and saying oh if you tweak that with your uniform and put a bit of makeup on and then people would say Trini what do you think and I loved it it gave me such a kick to feel somebody needed, in my opinion, that literally that basic. Are you shy? I'm confident and shy. And they can be two linear things, because I will go to a big event and love to spend time in the loo if I feel, I don't know if there's anyone to talk to here, you know, just because I just feel uncomfortable to stand and look for people I know. And sometimes, you know, I'm really tall, so it's easy. I always wear very high heels when I go out. Now, not so much because I know my legs take it, but it would help me see people in the room that I would know. You know, I was when I

was up to about, you know, in my 20s, I was really shy. But I'm also confident. I also will, and this is probably in the last few years, if I go somewhere now, I will just go up to people and say, hi, I'm Trini, who are you? And I just, sometimes my daughter is embarrassed by my forwardness when we're in a place or standing next to somebody I've never met before, and I'll just chat to them. And I think you do that having come from a sort of TV world because you just begin conversations and she can't understand why I'll just begin conversations with strangers. But I enjoy it. I enjoy seeing what makes people tick a lot. And every time you start a conversation with somebody, you just learn something else about human nature. And I like to always be doing that. So those two run linear. I love that. I think we're so similar in that

respect. I'm also tall. So I'll see you at a party hovering above the heads of everyone else. Exactly. Let's get on to your failures. Your first failure was the launching of your 1999 business. Tell us what that business was and what happened. It was something that I used to write a column in The Telegraph for years. we did a show for Granada which then didn't get picked up and then I was just really interested in the internet Susanna not so much actually she loved writing and doing the column

and but she was also becoming a mum and things and I kind of was obsessed by it and I just felt it was exciting and I I'd always been a bit techie like my very first job I had an apple literally a few years after they were made you know when I was sort of 20 I was obsessed with the whole modern technology element and I remember somehow I made a connection that there would be e-commerce online there wasn't by the stage but I felt there's going to be what I did know and understand compared to writing a column in a newspaper is you could do something and it could be seen around the world. And I love that, that your audience was global in a flash. And that was not at that stage, something that was present. So I kind of felt if you could have a portal. And I remember one long

weekend, I did some weird cleanse. I never do cleanses. I don't give a shit about diets, but I just, for some reason, did this thing, but it gave me great clarity. I drunk this disgusting stuff out of a bottle, and I drunk bottles of it. I don't know why I did it, but I did it. I think I was doing a thing of trying to have a child, and I was trying all different things. Cleanse your body of sugar. You will be able to be more fertile, whatever it was I was trying. I kind of had this real epiphany. I felt I want to create destination. I had such a clear vision of what I wanted it to be. I felt I wanted it to be all areas for women. I knew I'd have a focus on things that people knew us for like clothing and makeup and style. I knew that the biggest frustration for women was that they would buy things and they wouldn't fit or where could they find things? There was a lack

of where can I find something so I had the idea I wrote down 20 pages and I said Susanna I think we should do this and then we took it somewhere we took it to Cable & Wireless who were only because I read they were doing e-commerce platforms and we took the marketing person there we cold called them they at the time were wanting to do things for women online they didn't know where they were heading and she said what do you need I said 500 grand Susanna kicked me on the table saying are you insane I had no idea two weeks later she sends me an email the woman and says I don't think you've got the right amount I think you need 650 grand so they give it to us and then with that I think oh my god so this is the point by which I then did things very

differently today with Trinity London but I thought immediately I've got a great idea but I have no idea how to execute this idea. So I need to find people who know things better than me. So I asked my brother, who is good with finance, to be CFO. I was founder. I got a woman in from Barclays to be CEO because I thought I don't know how to run a business. I'm sort of creative and founder. We then raised 7 million from two Vcs in two and a half months quickest raise i've ever done and hired women very quickly predominantly female we had hard coders we did power coding at the time so we had a lot of people in tech writing the code we developed technology that would show when a woman's body shape and you could change it it was really advanced technology i remember going to see sex site sexclub.co.uk because they have the best animation in England on online and I went to his office and you know there were literally

other rooms I said what's in those rooms and I saw polls you know it was so funny but it was the thing that the sex industry then were the most visual animation of anything online and I just found interesting so I thought that was a good place to go and talk to them. So anyway the ideas were big and the execution did not allow for a lack of e-com starting and therefore no way to monetize and after about a year we then went into sort of dot-com boom went to dot-com bust 2001 and it was really changing the industry the reinvestment was really challenging we had no path to profitability and we had to close it so I had to close it after about less than two years and it was so painful because I had become during that process it had become my life Susanna had children so she was in the business not probably as much as I was because she was pregnant having babies you know

I would be calling her at 8 30 in the morning saying where, where are you? She said, I'm breastfeeding. And I'll say, well, can you come in quickly, please? I had no comprehension of what it was like to be a working mother because I was so obsessed. And then I had to wake up the fact that we wouldn't be able to get financing and we had to close it. And I had to close it by myself. Susanna was having her baby, her second baby. And I just remember moving the office, trying to negotiate the contracts. All the big players who've worked in the business left.

So it was kind of then suddenly up to me to do all the things my CEO and CFO had done. And I wanted to make sure all the team had a good severance pay. So negotiating with our investors, it was really challenging. And I remember I sat in this tiny office with two people in the business thinking, what next? What am I going to do? And feeling at that stage, what have I got to offer? Because I still did the columns of the Telegraph, but I'd made my vision of what my life should be so much bigger than that, that the Telegraph didn't seem much. It was great. I had a bloody income, so it was really great.

But my vision had been popped. So, you know, I went abroad and I went on a retreat in Arizona at this place called Cottonwood, which did, you know, retreats, people who are in recovery. And I did a week retreat. And what I learned for the first time then, which I try and do more of now, is that I had to bloody well live in the moment. You know, I live so much in what I've done, what I've got yet to do that I hadn't cherished the present and I hadn't really made the present weighty to give me that feeling of a grounding, to not have that sort of imposter syndrome. I'm going to be found out moment. So that week it was an unbelievably intense week so I came back Elizabeth and I was like I'm open to whatever is going to happen next not like let me grab around and try and you know make something happen which might not be the right thing for me and then I got a call from the BBC so fascinating there are so many questions I want to ask you because I've never gone through that kind of business experience I wonder what it feels does it feel like grief or does it feel like heartbreak does it feel like humiliation like what what other experience would

you relate it to or is it just entirely unique I'd say the thing it least felt like was humiliation because humiliation is a public condemnation of what you're doing. And, you know, I had to do an article in the FT saying we'd gone into hibernation. I just felt so sad it hadn't succeeded because I really, the thing was, Elizabeth, I still believe the vision was right. So I think that's what saddened me the most, that I had put my faith in people I'd employed who were really qualified and they had glided in the business and hadn't grafted. So I actually looked at all the things I would do differently if I ever did it again. Even at that stage, I thought that. So when I came to start Trinity London, I thought I'm not going to hire really overqualified people too early who would take me on a journey of where they think their vision

should go. And I need to have the faith in myself that I know our consumer and I know where the business should go. and that I will hire those people when I need them to help me execute getting it there on my vision so that was the biggest change and that I knew I needed to not want to be all things to all people which we want to do too much at once then starting eight channels but start with the core so in terms of verticals you know then we were doing clothing, makeup, cookery, homeware, everything. It was just, you know, what do you focus on as a consumer? So to me, I knew I had to start with one. I have six verticals I want to do for Trinity London, but I had to start with one. I had to prove that vertical to myself and to investors

before I started on another and build the business that way. So there was so much I learned. But at the time, when you talk about what was my core feeling, it was just heartbreak. It was like having to break up with somebody you're in love with and not one of you is leaving the other, but knowing you have to break up, which is the most painful way to break up. Yeah. And you mentioned that you went to Cottonwood and that you were and are in recovery. Were you ever worried that the pressure or the stress of that situation would cause a lapse in your recovery? Never. Never. I mean, I feel that when I was in very early recovery, I had quite a few, like four of my very good friends didn't make it. And I had a really profound sense that I have one life. It really like, you know,

that has never left me. So the recovery I have now is my interpretation recovery, but I have a spiritual path. I have a sense of, I need to have that time to have a sort of meditation in my day. I need to write a gratitude list of, know things I am grateful for as a person I need to challenge myself and my character traits to know if I'm living my life with integrity some days really good at some days I'm shit at it so those elements I carry with me now but at that time I just think I've never ever thought for a second in you know that was 1990 that I would go and let's become you know a cocaine addict no I have to say I'm finding it so calming speaking to you I find you very calming and wise and I'd expected a lot of things from this interview but I hadn't

necessarily expected that sense of calm I've got my because of what happened yesterday well oh yeah it's so interesting that it's I mean I suppose it's part of that linear duality which is actually complementary that we were talking about about being confident and shy you are calm and wise and considered and you are also Trini on Instagram who is this ball of fantastic energy that makes me want to buy everything in Zara and get it tailored. I don't really have a question there. I just wanted to comment on it. But my question on this failure, my final question on this is about money, because it strikes me having done my research and read a bit about you for this interview you've gone through several times in your life where you have lost everything or almost everything that must have felt I imagine very insecure and uncertain so what's your relationship with

money like does it scare you it's complicated I was going to say to you because you said to me at the very beginning, if there's anything you need to change or take out, let me know. And the one thing was that when you say things in interviews, over the years, they get misinterpreted. So my dad didn't lose all his money when I was 18. But what happened was we had this very, very privileged lifestyle of living between a few countries.

And then when I was 16, 17, there was a big change. You still owned a home. I would say the height of my father's business success was sort of 30s, 40s, and then 50s. There were some changes in his life. So what was very interesting in that is I saw that in my life and I saw the effect it had on him and the changes he had to make to his lifestyle as a result from what he had achieved very early. I took that in. I've taken that in, Elizabeth, and it affects some decisions of how I think about things today. have success at a certain stage and we might know this and know that we have parents who you know are at a stage where if they're alive they've had to compromise the life they had because they're older and their financial planning was different and so you know the ability to leave a consistently great life that you want to have for yourself whatever that entails for you as a

person financially or just moralistically or whatever, you know, I want to have the freedom to do that. And when I was younger, you know, there was a time when my parents never pushed me to go to university or to do anything. And my sister, you know, had a lovely apartment in central London. And so when I was 18, I kind of knew I just had to start work. And most people start work at 18 or when they go to university. But I sort of, first of all, I don't think I was smart enough to go to university, but I kind of knew I just had to start work and most people start work at 18 or when they go to university but I sort of first of all I don't think I'm smart enough to go to university but I kind of knew I also had to go and earn money I had a Saturday job when I was 16 to 18 cutting meat in partridges you know I I did that because my memory is always really bad but I know I needed to earn pocket money because I wasn't necessarily getting pocket money for my parents so and I would start businesses

at 16 at school I started a business you know called Bose Unlimited so there was this part of me that knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur but I also knew I need to earn money and when I started my first job you know I was paid eight thousand pounds a year as a salary that's probably what most people paid if they didn't go to university so I've always wanted to live beyond my means in so much that I love lovely things I love clothes you know I love to waste my money away on clothes whatever it might be I just love them like people might love to buy themselves a nice sofa or telly or a car I just like clothes and that's something that doesn't earn money as you as you buy them so I've had periods of my life where I've earned a lot of money and I've

been the sole breadwinner and I've been supporting quite a few other people in my life and there's been periods of time where I've earned no money when all my friends around me have been earning quite good money and I've had to kind of work that one out for myself. So it's very interesting our relationship with money you know to me when I look at the possibilities of financially where Trini London could take me, there are some founders who have a vision which is a very financially driven vision and some founders who have a vision which is a sort of spiritual vision. stage where I'm not too old, Elizabeth, where I feel that full financial freedom that if I couldn't work from tomorrow, I wouldn't be changing how I would like my life to be. It's not that I'd suddenly like to take a private jet or feel I always travel first class around the world. It's just literally kind of sort of basic things. I think when you're 20 or 30, you might think I want to be a billionaire and the value of company has to be a billion. And I have a vision for Trinny London, which is

about, I want it to be an incredibly successful company, because then I feel it has an impact on so many more people. So the bigger it is, the more impact it has. And I know that as a business, you know, to many people who are customers of Trinny London, we're more than a beauty brand. We bring them something else. And I love that. there are a lot of not-for-profit businesses and our concept of not-for-profit is that we want to be more than just a product for people but we just want to make them feel better about themselves and even if they never bought a product from us that halo effect of what myself and Trinity London represents to women is something that I want to be global, fully, fully global as a concept.

Money is a complicated thing. Yeah. It's fascinating hearing you talk because I recently had a realization and it comes from the freelance life, which I know, you know, my background is also print media and I know you'll understand this. It comes from that fear that if you say no, you're never going to get an offer again. And, and I realized that actually the bulk of my stress and anxiety comes from that mindset. And I had this moment where I thought, how would my decision making be different if I chose not to worry about money? And just as a sort of hypothetical exercise how might I change my answer to that thing I'm being offered and it was a revelation because it suddenly became so much clearer what did you then do from that to get yourself to that mindset and do you think

you're successfully there it's a process the reason that I got to that point and this is something I'd love to talk to you about during the course of this conversation, is because I'm on a fertility journey that has lasted the best part of 11 years. And as you will know only too well, as someone who did lots of IVF, and I salute you for that, like stress is one of the major things that you keep being told, you know, you've got to get ready and you've got to calm and you've got to... So that's where the thinking came from. I was like, I need to make a change in my life because I can't operate at this level of adrenalized stress. So then it was about working out why I was stressed. And I was like, well, I'm so busy and I feel like I've got... And that came from fear that it might all go away tomorrow.

And it did change. I quit a job after I had that realization because I thought okay if I'm not going to worry about money what does it bring me what does it bring me and actually it didn't bring me enough spiritual sustenance to do it for that reason so I think I'm getting there but I don't think I'm there yet I mean there's so many things to unpack because I feel that I remember when I was on that IVF journey and you know for the first few years of it I was very stressed I remember being on set at what not to wear and you know two times I lost a baby on set and it was like quite a lot of people right and that was probably many reasons Elizabeth why one does miscarry. And I remember always my very nice IVF doctor said that embryo is like it's in a hot air balloon. You know, it's so protected,

it's not falling or it's literally, but there is something that we feel that courses through our veins of that feeling of when you're stressed and that cortisol adrenal release. And I know inherently that's not great for getting pregnant. I just know that whatever, whatever a scientist might tell you, there's still that part of that thing. So releasing ourselves from pressures that we put upon ourselves, like that kind of our vision of what we feel. Every August I had what you had, you know, because I had TV contracts and book contracts and column contracts. And every August, it would be, will I be renewed? And I remember August was never a time I could go and relax and have a full summer holiday because I was waiting to see, would that contract be renewed? And I lived that life for 18 years

in the industry of that. You're only as good as your last book as your last column as your last tv show so it's a very difficult way to live but it also the more feared you are the less faith you have in yourself to know that you're good at something and it's about how do you go it's like there was a wonderful book called feel the fear and doing it anyway which i read in rehab many years ago written in i think the 50s or 70s i can't remember and it is that feel it it's like when you do meditation you know the thought comes in and just acknowledge it and let it go wherever it's going and that's my when I'm on doing healthy days around fear it's about okay I'm feeling fear that's okay but that is that voice inside my head which is not the core of me you know because as soon as it articulates itself,

it's no longer me. When it's just feeling, I feel it's me. But when it articulates into negative messages, that's when I think, can you shut up now? And just go and be quiet, because that's not me. And I have to remember that. And some days I do, and some days I don't. But that, you know, thing around money and thing around the fear of financial insecurity, which is what we're really talking about, is days that I can be really like, you know, I kind of already have what I need in a way. I sort of think I don't because of some weird circumstances, but yes, I could have a life at this place. So why can't I let go of what that need is or that amount in my mind to have that total financial freedom, it is above a certain financial point, totally a state of mind. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?

troublesome priest! This is a time of great foreboding. These words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognised for being very online. History hits. Join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news.

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by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Apple Podcasts. I don't want to move on to your second failure without acknowledging your loss and how traumatic and difficult that must have been to go through two miscarriages on set at a time when your friend and co-host is having babies seemingly with ease. I haven't had that direct experience, but I've had a lot of experiences that I can relate to that on a cellular level. So I just want to acknowledge that. And I know that we're going to get onto your beautiful relationship with your daughter and your third failure. So I'm going to park that for now and go onto your second failure, which is your failure to commit to yourself, which is a fascinating one and you mentioned that business that you started at school bows unlimited and this failure relates

to that tell us how because the beginning of any sort of entrepreneur's journey or when you have an idea you just see everything you want to do and when you do it with somebody else you're halving the dream and halving the responsibility but you're making it conditional upon somebody else too but you know we have this idea I don't even know who had the idea first actually it was just to do these hair bows Princess Diana was around she had these lovely hair bows we went to Portobello market got brooches we got lots of fabrics made these bows you know walked around London selling them we were at school. And it was a sort of era where it was a fad, but we sort of bought into it. And I really wanted to do it and I liked it.

And then my friend who would want to go to art school when she left school said, I'm going to go to art school, so I'm not going to do it with you anymore. And I gave up on it because I just felt, do I myself have the ability to follow through on this? And I decided I didn't. There was lots of good learning in that, but I just let go of it. Now, it would have been a tiny little business, which probably would have just stopped anyway a few years later because it was just a one trick pony. And I didn't have enough life experience to then think, what else could it be? And I was very good at starting things, not finishing them.

And my mother in her life started so many things and never finished them. I did actually think of that and say, I'm just like my mother. The amount of writing paper I'd find of my mother's with different little company names on it. You know, my mother was magnificent, but also she had some traits in her that I didn't respect. Very difficult thing to say that, but I didn't understand or appreciate because I think didn't respect is really harsh to say about your mother.

It was easier to say, oh, it's not going to work because I kind of, my mother was like, move on to the next. There was a little bit of being my mum in this. I don't know. I did do a few more than one, you know, because I did another one called Sock It To You when I was then 21. Great name. Yeah, Sock It To You. I did it a few more than one, you know, because I did another one called Socket to You when I was then 21. Great name.

Yeah, Socket to You. I did it with this other girlfriend who was kind of a trust fund girl and I wasn't kind of thing. You know, I had to earn the money, but she sort of so we did that with her flat and it was about socks. I went to Barter in East London. We got these socks made and I got all these lovely girls and they went on the trading floor. I had lots of friends who were on trading floors and they would go around with the baskets of socks and I just thought what do men need the most they don't have time to buy it socks and so you know they went and bought the socks of these girls and the girls I made sure were all pretty and flirty you know I

was a real feminist at the time but it was just they were lovely girls you know just kind of naive sweet girls and all the men fell in love with them and said let me buy 10 socks instead of 20 so they could chat to them five minutes longer so really really politically incorrect now and you know I love that business and then because I wasn't experienced in business there were lots of problems came up like the socks really ran in the wash the elastic of the sock went so you know I had all these disgruntled calls of we didn't have customer service department I was customer service department and it was like you know I want a refund on my socks aren't working or you know and it just then petered out but we by the stage

in that midst of the success had ordered so many socks and I remember for likely 20 years I kept finding another bloody box of socks in an attic or back of a garage I was in or something. And it was like this reminder of this failed business. God, oh my God, that was one of my worst ideas, really. I mean, you say, and you say this quite frequently, actually, that you're not clever. And I beg to differ. I think you're super clever and smart to have these ideas and that creativity and just be brilliant at puns. But what do you think that those experiences taught you about imposter syndrome? Do you still have imposter syndrome? I'd have maybe two days a month where I have imposter syndrome as a CEO.

In terms of as a founder and a vision for a business, I have no imposter syndrome. I know exactly what I want to do. I know exactly what I want to do. I know exactly what I want to offer people. I know exactly what I want to create for them. And I'm sort of most unwavering in that. I have most of my belief in that. And sometimes it will help me then feel a better CEO. So oddly, in this meeting I was in this morning after this post-monsoon of yesterday, I was quite quiet in the meeting.

And then it was talking about, you know, lots of different people about things, future of the business. And I just, you know, started to talk a lot about my vision for the future, which I hadn't for a while because I'd just been so caught up in day-to-day stuff. And afterwards, some people who work with me just were like, really excited, you know, and I just thought, I have it in me here. It's here. That's what I'm really good at. And then that allows me to acknowledge that makes me a good CEO, because you need, you know, CEO needs to have vision of where that company is going to be in five or 10 years. And I have that. I know that it's just the little bits in between on a few days a month that just like I'd question am I doing the right thing here and I think if I ever met a CEO who never questions themselves I'd be really worried about their

ability as CEO I'd say that because you need to question your decisions but then once you commit to them you need to commit and sometimes when I'm just a bit flaccid about my commitment to a decision that's when I need to like hey Trini give yourself a kick up the arse what about Instagram Trini because I feel like you know yourself completely in that form so do you I'm assuming you never get imposter syndrome when you're doing those star videos that have amassed you over a million followers btw yeah never very different audiences too because like we have an Instagram one which is a million Facebook is two million actually and Facebook is really interesting because Facebook you have the ability to have a two-way conversation much more than Instagram what I find most exciting

about social media is that I started doing it and I went straight to kind of video like in 2017 because I didn't know you know take a nice picture I did that for a few weeks on Instagram and then I just actually thought I just want to chat and it was I think I was quite early to do video and as a result you know when you're going through the feed suddenly this woman's jabbering away about something it arrests your attention so I think that from that especially on Facebook which is all just posting pictures of dogs and cats and memes in its early stages, it was kind of like we got this very big following. And it creates an intimacy. It's a place one can be very intimate.

And it sounds such an oxymoron. But when I do do lives and we accelerate a lot during lockdown, a lot of people at home and they were consuming social media more. And I just have a conversation about what I was feeling at the time and you know if it was a shit day I'll go on say shit day I didn't want it to be too contemplation as the belly because I think you need to be there to give something to other people and I see the purpose is to give something and share things with other people that help them there are very few days when I went on to help myself because I was feeling shit and I knew having a good conversation with people I'd never met across the world but who I talked to consistently for a year during lockdown was going to help me too you know but I've always felt in

my life that if there's something I discover that I feel is interesting and helpful to other people I want to tell everyone about it you know there are people in life who want to keep it for themselves. And I'm somebody who I want to share it. And sometimes I overshare those things. But I do feel passionate about things I love and I think are useful or make you feel happier. And so I think that I never plan or rehearse. And as a result, when people watch, they know that's just literally a stream of consciousness. It's not edited or filtered or anything. And I think in the world when so much is edited and filtered, that maybe that's broken through and that people feel that's going to be a, you know, whether I like her opinion or not, it's going to be a conversation I might listen to for a couple

of minutes. And I enjoy doing it too. And I think that, you know, we have a very unique community at Trini London because a lot of communities, when you build a business, are manufactured by the business or it was a community which then turned into a business. But our community is very different and it's our harshest critic and our biggest champion. And there is no money that exchanges hands and there's just giving them tools to make them feel better. It started with a little woman in northwest England called Kelly, And she started this fan page on Facebook. And she followed me. And then it was at the time I was starting Trini London. So, you know, she said anyone else following Trini and what she's doing, and she got a group together. And then all these other sort of groups appeared. And then when we were the business was growing, and one of the people

who were at social media said, Trini, I'm finding all these other sites. Did you start them yourself? What are they? You know, we found all these sites. So we got in one of the people who were at social media said Trini I'm finding all these other sites did you start them yourself what are they you know we found all these sites so we got in touch with the people who admin the page and we said look this is great you're posting all this stuff and you're taking a little bit of Trini's face or a bit of the logo do you want a logo you know we can give you a logo so you can all talk to each other so we created this logo they call themselves the Trini tribe we wrote Trini tribe and then we started communicating with the people who run them but we said do you want to have a kind of charter you know have some premise by which you post and don't

post so we created this charter of what we wanted these pages to be that they would never ever put down any other woman that nobody would try and sell their sort of home-baked cookies on the site that it would be a place you encourage and support other women. And you talk about stuff you are liking. And so it is that. And, you know, it's a place where we now have 33 around the world. They're in 16 countries. Some have 500 members. Some have 12,000 members. They post every day. I look at them every day, all of them. There's a global Trini tribe and there's lots of local ones. But, you know, I see people saying, I've never posted a posted a picture myself before but I feel safe enough to do it here and I've put this outfit on because I want my husband to love me again I mean you get the most intimate stuff there and it's an incredibly special community and I feel very

privileged sounds so pretentious I feel so happy that community is there and that as a result of something I've started that community has blossomed. Trini it's like everything that you wanted at school on such a massive level you've now got these two million. It is that it is that and then you know there's people on there that you know there are thousands and thousands of members of this community as well as social media followers and I see them as a crossover but there's definitely a difference in the depth of their connection with us. But, you know, some of them I've really followed some very special journeys as a woman in Holland who was totally agoraphobic and never left her house. And through following and engaging with myself and the community, she now has a full life.

You know, endlessly we will get messages from people. And I think that also, when you're building it, we have a team now of like 200 people at Trinity London, and there's a very big team that look after community. And we get 10,000 comments a week through the different channels when we answer every single comment. We're very rare as a brand

that we will answer every single comment that people send. And that takes a big management of a community team, but it gives us a sense of what are women thinking and feeling and what's worrying them and how can we help in this situation. And you need that barometer, whatever you're making as a product or selling to people, you need to understand the barometer of how people feel at that moment in time and what you're doing for them. of how people feel at that moment in time and what you're doing for them. So it's invaluable to all the people who work also at Trini London because they then hear these messages. So just for their some days, it's a really tough, long working day at Trini London.

Other days we have the candy floss we've seen because we launched a new product and it's like a carnival. But when they hear this stuff from women that could probably because we have a very young team to an extent at Trinland compared to you know our consumer is 35 plus and our team is you know I'm the oldest by many years in the company and then there's maybe a token a few people who are 50 and most people are 40 a lot of 30 and many many are 20 that they feel this could be their mother or their aunt or their older sister and it makes them feel great that there's a purpose here that isn't just whatever their job remit is. Extraordinary. Let's move on to your third and final failure, which I found this tremendously moving even to read. So I don't know what it's going to be like to talk about. And as you put it, it's failure as a single mother. Tell us why you chose this.

I think that you question yourself more as a single mother because there isn't somebody else in the room to share the joy, the pain, the worry, the torture, whatever it might be of bringing up children. So you will maybe say more often to yourself have I done the right thing you know and there's a few instances in bringing up Lila where I've questioned did I do the right thing and is it a failure it's more I've questioned whether I've been a failure in it so with the relationship I have with Lila now and the girl that she is, I think I'm really lucky that she is where she's at. You know, it's more than luck. It's also that I've done something right. But there have been times when things happen where people would look and think she shouldn't have done that.

That's been when I've really questioned to myself whether I made the right decision. question to myself whether I made the right decision because you're I mean you're a single mother twice over aren't you because you split from your ex and then he died by suicide so that must feel profoundly alone profoundly single yeah it does I think when you when you get separated because we got separated before he died, he wasn't so well in other areas, Johnny. But there were times when as a separated couple, we were the best parents when he was well. And I really thought, how lucky am I that we are so close that we can be incredibly supportive to each other in bringing up Lila. So when you make a decision separate, it's the hardest thing to do when there's nobody else involved, which there wasn't for either of us. But it was just something that I felt that had to be done. The loss then of

somebody dying that way when you didn't expect it, And then the removal for that child of their dad in a very harsh way. And also my stepson, who lost his dad too, you know, he was 18, 19. Even though you might have many friends and, you know, lots of little things that were there, like I have a brother and you sort of think the uncle will be like the dad but he then was living in Australia so I kind of thought who's going to be the man that I feel Lila needs in her life at that time was feeling more traditionally that every child should have a mother and a father then you can actually know it doesn't have to be a mother and a father what it has to be is two people in that person's life who will offer them different things and when Lila was since she was born she had a nanny she was maternity nurse called

Jenny Jenny then every year I also stay because I was when I stopped working in England I worked abroad and I had to go and leave on a Sunday come back on a Friday so Johnny would look after Lila at home but then when we split up he would have her two nights a week and then I'd have her at the weekend. It was very kind of weird role reversal of husband and wife. But Jenny was constant. She was there. Jenny is weirdly like Lila's sort of grandmother mother. And my mother had Alzheimer's. So towards, you know, when Lila was growing up, she wasn't a grandmother, grandmother. And I was sort of mother father. But what it meant was Lila had that kind of unconditional, I know what food you need to eat now thing, which was not me. She had life lessons, unconditional love, a little spoiling, and dad kind of stuff from me. And so it has allowed her to be really well-rounded. She's in a way an only child.

And I think the one thing of an only child, even though she has her brother, who's like 10 years older, is that they have this self-confidence. I don't think if you're one of a few, you have, because you're always kind of measuring yourself up or being measured up or, you know, it might mean then that you don't try so hard for so much in life. But I know many single kids who are very successful. But I look in wonder at Lila at at the age she is, and think, you so believe in yourself. Because when I might say, you're so whatever, she goes, I know, mommy. And I'm like, okay, even though it's the weirdest upbringing you had and the most profound things happened to you. And sometimes I think, you know, you didn't have that classic, let's all sit around the table as a big family

with lots of kids and a mother and father. I said this to somebody last night discussed politics and and life stuff that might have been boring when I was a kid to listen to but it gave me a certain amount of education which she has not had because we didn't have that upbringing but she said other stuff and you know having the impact of something really big when you're younger makes you in some ways grow up a lot and in some ways remain a child for longer. Was she eight when her father died? She was nine. She was nine, yeah. That must have been such a difficult conversation for you to have with her. Yeah, it was. It was. I was very lucky because when it happened, she was at school, two policemen came round to my house and told me and sorry now I'm so sorry I'm so sorry and my sister came around very quickly and she was very good friends with Julia Samuel

who's a fantastic grief therapist and wrote a wonderful book called This Too Shall Pass and and two books on grief and she came round before my daughter had come back from school and she told me what to say. She gave me the words. Trini, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You are amazing. What an incredible mother, mother-father, as you put it,

for Lila to grow up with. You are clearly such tremendous fun apart from anything else. And we see the love between the two of you on those Instagram videos. It's just a joy for us all to behold. You are so incredible for what you've got through and who you are and how all of this trauma that you've been through has shaped your extraordinary outlook on life. It is honestly a privilege to witness. And I'm so honored that you shared that with me. Thank you so, so much. And I wonder if I can ask you something else, which is more for the people going through fertility issues right now. And a lot of them I know listen to this podcast,

going through fertility issues right now. And a lot of them I know listen to this podcast, partly because I've spoken about my own. And I know that you went through nine rounds of IVF before Lila and another seven afterwards. And I just, again, want to pay tribute to the courage that takes, the titanic level of courage. But for any of us who need a little hope, but for any of us who need a little hope, is it worth it, Trini? Like when you look at Lila now, all of the pain and all of the courage that that took, do you think, oh my goodness, thank goodness I kept going?

The time in which you decide you want to be a mother or what makes you think you want to be a mother, and that's a profound thing to think about because I didn't think in my 20s I didn't have a burning desire to be a mother in my early 30s I didn't have a burning desire to be a mother um Susanna was being a mother and I found it a inconvenience to the growth of our business but did you find it painful as well it must have been no I found it irritating okay really candid I found it irritating and and then I sort of woke up one day whether we call it biological clock or whatever I just thought of 35 and I thought I really want to be a mother maybe it was when I sort of let go and got over all my mother issues whatever it was but I just

had this I want to be a mother now and I had had arm protect sex for like 10 years okay I'd never got pregnant so I sort of knew I couldn't get pregnant actually for years but I never thought how much I want to be a mother so when I made that decision I went literally that day to IVF because I knew there was a problem and I didn't know what the problem was, but Johnny and I had never conceived. So we went and, you know, we had really like one day Johnny's sperm would just look like they were dead. The next day they were swimming the fucking time, you know, the channel. So it was like, OK, I think he's fine, but you'd be very different one rating for the next. And this is also like 2003. So fertility has come a long, long way.

But they said you have unexplained infertility. Such a great catch all, isn't it? And so I just started doing it straight away. And at the time, I was earning quite a lot of money. So I do it. It failed. I do it again. I mean, I did like five in a year.

Oh, my God. Like, you know, the gonol F was like in my thought. And I was like the professional. I mean, I remember when I very first did it, it was like Johnny got the surgical gloves on. We did the injection. And, you know, by the time I was doing the fifth time, I was like, oh, you know, whatever. So it became mechanical. And I remember when I once did an interview then when Johnny was still alive and

they said did it affect you hormonally and I was like a bit and Johnny was like so fucking much it was probably I've turned into a really hormonal cow and I think I was very difficult to be around and each time it didn't work so the first time it didn't work the second time I got pregnant then that one I just lost lost and then I waited like a month and then I did another one and then it didn't take and then I did another one and it didn't take and then I did another one so within 18 months that was probably and then I got pregnant again and I then had to give birth because it was you know I don't know why I had to give birth I had to give birth because it was, you know, I don't know why I had to give birth. I had to give birth. Sorry, was that a mistake?

Because there was some problem, but he just said, I can't do a DNC. You have to give birth. I can't remember why, but I just remember this kind of, I have to say I have blanked a bit at the time, Elizabeth, because I just think. Fucking surprise. You're just kind of then like, you're just like on this roller coaster. And then I did three more, full IVF. And then I had frozen some of Johnny's sperm. We're getting really detailed here. But if everyone listens to this for an element of agility,

I'm sorry to the boys who are like, whoa, but this is like a girl's chat. And in fact, a boy's chat because they have to go through it the other side if you're in a relationship with a man. So Johnny was away. Johnny was away at a rehab. You know, that's where our marriage was at. And I remember Dr. Ren called me up. She said, Trini, I've got some of Johnny's stuff.

Do you want me to throw it away or not? And I was like, I don't know what's going to happen in life. I said, I'll come in, just shove it in. You know? So I remember, went in, put my legs in the stirrups, shoved it in. And I left. And I literally left and stopped thinking about it. I was like, p know a month later I bled I thought there we go again you know kind of like that I was just like because things weren't great on lots of levels I was like

and then I um remember I get to the next month and I think oh I didn't get my period and Mari Rent called me up she said Trini why haven't you come in because usually I was like day 11 I was like can I come and stay can I come and stay and she went no you've got to wait till day 13 you know and she called me up she said Trini it's day day 120 I know it was really later what the fuck's going on and I was like I've lost it she said just come in and I was pregnant and I was like oh my god and she said okay and then sent me to this man in Wimbledon because she said, you have to go and do all this anti miscarriage thing. So I had to take these horrible steroid injections every day. I hate it taking. And they stung me. And I was like, I really thought I don't know if I'm going to be able to keep it.

But I then went to America and I did the Oscars with Susanna. We're both pregnant. And I immediately called my obstetrician and I said, I'm bleeding. And I really thought I'd lost Lila. And I remember I came back from America and I went straight to St. Mary's Paddington. And he had one of those mobile ultrasounds. I think I had that inevitable feeling I've lost the baby, just like this sort of flat feeling. And then I heard her heartbeat. Then I was like, oh, my God. You know, I so didn And then I heard her heartbeat. Then I was like, oh my God. You know,

I so didn't expect to hear her heartbeat. I think I had a scan every two weeks because she was also the wrong way around and upside down. And she was born with, with talopes in both her feet. So she didn't push her feet out that much because she had very, you know, all her feet had to be broken when she was born. And she didn't kick. So most mums, they always hear the kick and feel the kick. And so she, that kind of, I never knew she was inside me easily. And then she was born early because I lost water and she was born sort of a month and a half early. I didn't know what kind of mother I'd be. Like when you spend that long, long Elizabeth you don't quite know will you be that natural like I had Susanna as a role model

who to me was this most incredible mother earth mother her kids came first she was but she didn't sort of treat them preciously she was like sort of get on with it country style upbringing of don't be precious you know brilliant mum and she taught me a lot about being a mom. I mean, she had three by then and I had one. So I was obviously always going to be more precious with

Lila. Yeah, she taught me a lot. I think what made me feel fully maternal was that I breastfed Lila for a year and I did start working after three weeks of having Lila. And when I look back, I think, do I wish I'd spent longer not working? But I kind of didn't have the option because I needed to earn money and I was the main breadwinner. But there were times when I was in America doing a TV show, living in this house and there were cables, everyone genuinely would come up so I could go and breastfeed and take her away. And it was just like the weirdest thing. But that breastfeeding of Lila, that moment of intimacy at the beginning of the. But that breastfeeding of Lila,

that moment of intimacy at the beginning of the evening and the end of the evening, which I had for a year of just whatever else and however full life was because of the circumstances of our life, I think made me so close to her in that very, very raw level when you just look at your baby as it's feeding.

So I learned to be a mother in that first year because when you're not ready to be a it's feeding. So I learned to be a mother in that first year, because when you're not ready to be a mother, and then you think you want to be a mother, and then you try to be a mother and you can't be a mother, you let go of the fact, can you be a mother? I totally, totally understand that. And you think so much about it and you hear so much about it from other people that it becomes stressful in and of its own right thinking I'm fighting for this thing so hard and I don't even know whether I'm going to be any good at it yeah exactly that and if you're somebody that by nature is such a fighter you're a fighter I'm a fighter it's so hard to then decide do I let go or not because there's this fight for the sake of I

need to fight for this because I feel this is a fight I should have, not is this a fight I want? And the hardest decision is for those people who decide IVF is not the right route. Then there's the route of, is it that I really want to be a mother? So there are many other ways of being a mother. And what does that look like? And then you sometimes don't know, do I want to be a mother or do I want to be a blood mother? And how different are they to me as a concept? I have friends who are all those things, their surrogate, their nothing to do with the baby physically, they didn't have it even inside them. They all are mothers I look at who all mother in a different way, who I really love and respect. And it's a choice. It's just your choice of what you want to do with your life, because it is going to be what life you give somebody else. But it's also what you want to do with your life.

about actually because I'm not sure whether it's urban myth or not but it's the fact that your nickname Trinny comes from an early experience of meeting someone involved in the film St Trinnyans is that right? So that was a guy called Frank Lauder and he was either the producer of St Trinnyans because a friend of mine's or the writer of St Trinnyans one or the other I don't know but I was very naughty at school when I was very young I was about five and I went to a day school and I cut a plait off of a girl in needle class because she'd done something and I just cut this plait off I had some scissors in my hand very bad when I have scissors in my hand and I was sent home and my dad was there with this guy and he said you are just like these girls that I'm writing about. I think he was a writer by any order. Got it.

Thank you so much. I am really, really honoured and pleased you came on How To Fail. That's one of my favourite evers. And thank you so much for all that you are, all that you do. And Trini Woodall, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. Okay, darling.

Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.