How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, Ep10 How To Fail: Tom Daley, the Olympic diving champion on his fear of mistakes, body image and perfectionism

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Tom Daley is an Olympic gold medallist diver, a three time World Champion and the first ever British person to win four Olympic diving medals. He's also, for the purposes of this podcast, just such a lovely, joyous person.He joins me to talk about diving failures, choking at the Rio Olympics, anxiety, body image, the curse of perfectionism, parenthood via surrogacy and what knitting has taught him about mistakes (surprisingly profound fyi). Plus: how he persuaded Kate Moss to pose for his GCSE photography project.--Made with Love, Tom Daley's guide to knitting and crochet, is out now and available to order here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Made-Love-step-step-award-winning/dp/0008546827--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Tom Daley @tomdaley Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Tom Daley is only 28, but his achievements belong to that of a much older person. As a sportsman, his awards are legion. He's an Olympic gold medalist diver, a three-time world champion and the first ever British person to win four Olympic diving medals. He started diving at the age of seven and his talent was spotted early at the Plymouth Diving Club. By 14, he was the youngest competitor at the 2008 Summer Olympics. Away from the diving platform, Daly's life has been one of growth and personal challenge. He was bullied at school and had periods of severe anxiety.

His beloved father, Rob, died of cancer at the age of 40, a few days after Daly's 17th birthday. In 2013, Daly made what he called a huge decision to release a YouTube video talking about his sexuality and his loving relationship with a man. He was one of the most high profile athletes to do so. And the impact was seismic. Daly is now a powerful LGBTQ plus advocate. He's married to American screenwriter Dustin Lance Black, and the couple

have a four-year-old son. And of course, there's the knitting. Having been spotted knitting in between dives at the Tokyo Games, Daly rapidly became a craft influencer and launched his own range of knit patterns called Made With Love. There's now an accompanying book. According to the UK Hand Knitting Association, Daly is responsible for a surge of men interested in the hobby, but more on that later. A knitter, an Olympic diver, a TV personality, a father and a fashion icon. Given all of this, it's perhaps no surprise that in his autobiography coming up for air, Daly writes that the path to success is never linear. Tom Daly, welcome to How to Fail. Hello, what an introduction.

Well, I should actually say welcome back to How to Fail because although we've never recorded our conversations before, this is the third time that I've had the joy of talking to you and I'm so glad that we can make this happen and I'm glad you also liked your introduction because for me writing it made me realize that you are someone I really admire because you are unafraid to pursue your passions like the knitting the diving the fashion has that always the case? For as long as I can remember, if I set my sights on something or I want to achieve something, I'm all in. I go for it. There's nothing that's ever going to hold me back and I will do everything that I can to get there. And, you know, it's been

a road that's not always easy, as you know. And I think I've gotten to a point in my life now in particular where I just don't care what anyone else thinks. I want to like just follow my follow my heart follow my passions and do as long as I know I'm being the best person that I can be for the planet and for the people around me then I'm doing all right we all appreciate your joyous presence and that thing about not caring what people think is so valuable and at 28 like you've nailed that it's taken me a really long time I'm still not there I still care what people think yeah what do you think it was that has brought you to that point do you think it's just living life in public it makes you have to not care I think there's a number of things like I think I first did anything in terms of tv like documentary or

anything like that when I was about nine or 10 years old. So I have kind of had to live my life very much in the public eye, had to go through, you know, bullying, through changing schools, going to the Olympics and figuring out my sexuality, all of that, and losing my dad in a very, very public way, which was like really quite challenging and quite daunting. And it got to a point where I was so worried about what everyone else was thinking, especially with the age of social media. And honestly, as I got older, in particular, when I lost my dad, and then after the Olympics in London, I was so excited about competing at these games. But at the same time, I tortured myself through the whole experience because I wanted to do so well and I didn't want to mess up and I also just found myself as I was getting older only defining myself

as a person based on how well I was diving so again that wasn't something that was particularly healthy but I do think becoming a parent changed my perspective on that completely like you realize what matters most and I also think the pandemic essentially and having all of those lockdowns made me appreciate the fact that things can change at any moment. You never know what's going to happen tomorrow. You never know what's going to happen in the next few minutes. And to try and live as presently and treasure and be so grateful for what you have in the here and now, because you never know when it's going to change or be taken away or be messed up in some sort of way. I just want to take a moment to pay tribute to your dad and thank you so much for

sharing that and I'm so sorry for your loss and you mentioned your own fatherhood there and I know your son is called Robbie your dad was called Rob has it been healing becoming a father yourself? Has it been healing for your grief? When you become a parent, I think the first thing that you realise is like, oh my gosh, how much your parents did for you when you were growing up. So I just think about what my mum and dad had to go through in terms of, I've got two younger brothers as well. So it wasn't just me, it was then figuring out what my brothers were doing with their school with the the clubs that they wanted to do they were into their football and rugby I was into my diving and then all of the places that

they had to be all at once and how much they sacrificed and gave up to do that and I think the one thing is I think I understand my parents a lot more now from being a parent and some of the things I used to find extremely embarrassing about my dad, I now get it. Like without knowing, I guess he taught me so many lessons that in particular, about not caring what other people think, because he was like a complete goofball when it came to like trying to make people laugh and making jokes and all of that. And I just used to get so embarrassed by it. But now I'm like, oh, what? He just didn't worry so much about what other people were thinking of him.

Yeah. Now, you obviously started young and you're still incredibly young. And it did lead to some quite astonishing life moments at a very, very precocious age. Is it true, Tom Daley, that you persuaded Kate Moss to pose for a recreation of an original portrait by David Hockney

as part of your GCSE photography project? So it's kind of even more wild of a story than that, honestly. I was doing GCSE photography and I had studied David Hockney for one of my pieces. And then I had a photo shoot coming up with Italian Vogue with Kate Moss in a swimming pool. So there's me and Kate Moss in a swimming pool being shot by Bruce Weber.

And then afterwards, I just, you know, I thought if you don't ask, you don't get. And I just was like, would you mind if I just like took a couple of pictures of you for my GCSE photography and then Bruce like saw me taking photos of Kate and then was like oh no come over here and do and I was like oh my gosh I'm like what is going on and I mean I got a hundred percent in my GCSE photography and then I and then later with the David Hockney thing, I met him in L.A. one time. And he was like, oh, one day I should paint you or I should draw you or do something. And then I was over there on mine and Lance's honeymoon and got an email from David Hockney Studios. Like, well, I see you're in L.A. Do you want to come in tomorrow?

And he drew me and he drew me nude, this first nude since 1960 and it was like such a like a crazy yeah so it was very surreal very surreal moments where is that portrait now so it was hanging in the LA County Museum so I don't actually know where the original portrait is but I've got a couple hanging up in Lance's office of like the studio prints of it and I'm just like it's so random but yeah like one of the things Lance said it was funny it's like he he left me in David's studio and was like okay I'll see you in a few hours I'll be back and Lance walks in the first thing he sees is the easel with David sat at it drawing and he sees my underwear hanging off of the easel

so it was quite a quite a quite extraordinary story to be honest. How incredible you mentioned casually there that you got 100% in your GCSE photography and I happen to know that you are a straight A student A's across the board at the same time as you were diving at a world championship level that must have been a lot of stress at a young age plus the fact as you were diving at a world championship level. That must have been a lot of stress at a young age, plus the fact, as you mentioned, that you were bullied at school. How did you cope during those years? I had to go from a very young age that we're in the public eye with, lots of different things.

Going to the Olympics, I qualified at 13. And what happened was over the summer when I went to Beijing for the Olympics, I came back thinking, you know, I was just going to go back to school like normal. And things so dramatically changed in the way that people treated me in terms of the older kids versus the younger kids. And it became a place that I never wanted to go. And it got to the point where I was like being hurt at school and things like that. And I just got to a point where I was like, I can't do that anymore. And I was like, I'm either going to have to be homeschooled or move.

And so I moved schools and it was 10 days before the first set of GCSEs, like when they do them in year 10 for some science ones. And I basically had to learn the whole new curriculum in 10 days because it was a different exam board. For English, for example, we had to choose which poems we were going to learn out of the 10 based on ones that had already come up in previous years because I didn't have time to learn all of them. So it was, yeah, extremely stressful in that time. And then I had to get, when it got to GCSEs and A-levels, I was doing my A-levels the year of London 2012. So I did London 2012, and then I had to go back in the September afterwards to go and finish my A-levels. So yeah, I think it was a good distraction away from the sport as well, which now is what kind of what knitting provides for me, I guess.

Did you ever want to give diving up at those moments when you were being physically assaulted at your school and you were having to learn GCSE syllabi in 10 days yeah did you ever want to give it up? Yeah there's been many times where I've wanted to give up diving and I think I think if anyone says to you that they've never thought about giving up their big passion in some moments of stress and under pressure, then they're probably lying to you. You know, you always have those thoughts. But when you have those days that you just show up and you keep going, that kind of really make the biggest difference. I also do find that one of my biggest times and my biggest periods of when I wanted to give up was after London 2012. Because when I was nine years old, I drew a picture of myself doing

a handstand that had the Olympic rings and said London 2012. And at nine years old, when I drew that, that was my end goal. That was like, I want to go to the London 2012 Olympic Games. So when I got there, I'd won my medal in front of a home crowd. It didn't get any better than that. And I was so, so happy. And then, you know, 10 days later, I was back to training, back to school, getting ready for the next thing. And I kind of felt like I 10 days later, I was back to training, back to school, getting ready for the next thing. And I kind of felt like I lost my purpose. I was like, what do I do now? Where do I go? How am I going to move on to the next thing? What is going to be my next thing? I've got to wait four years now before another Olympics. And I found myself in a really dark

place of like, I mean, people call it post Olympic blues, but I couldn't really speak to anyone about it because I was, you know, I'd won an Olympic medal. So if I spoke to any of my teammates, they were like, oh, well, you've already won an Olympic medal. Like what have we got to be sad about? And it got to a point where I was so unhappy with everything that I just, I actually decided to quit. And I went to LA to do some stuff for like Nickelodeon for their like kids choice awards or something like that and that was on the trip that I met Lance for the first time and meeting him and understanding what he has done in his career he had a similar feeling as me with the down that comes after a high after he won an Oscar 2009, to then coming down off the back of that and what was to come next, what was the purpose?

He had lost his brother in 2012. I'd lost my dad in 2011. So we had both suffered similar things and we connected on that level. And that was actually what inspired me to get back into diving because I was like, I'm not alone in this anymore. That's beautiful.

And Lance won an Oscar for the screenplay of Milk, an extraordinary film. And you've both been quoted in the past as saying that it was love at first sight. There was an immediate connection, wasn't there? Yes, I think we broke every single dating rule on the planet. We met at a dinner that was organised by a mutual friend and we just started talking about all kinds of complete small talk.

The question I always get asked is what goes on inside the Olympic Village and and then Lance was like oh that would make an amazing TV show and it was like all of this like very much small talk on the first day we met and then I had to go back to the UK obviously he stayed in the US and over the next eight weeks nine weeks we just talked every single day like from the moment we woke up to the moment we went to sleep. And he came over for my birthday in May to London. And I had a birthday party. And on that night was when I told all of my friends and all of my family that were there, that he was my boyfriend. But at that point, we hadn't talked about that. And he was like, oh, okay, this is a talked about that and so he was like oh okay this

is a thing but then the next night he asked me to be his boyfriend and I said yes and then the next day he told me he loved me and then the next date that we had I just said straight up I was like do you see yourself getting married and having kids and he was like uh I guess yeah like yeah I've always wanted kids too and I was like perfect I like, and then we named our kids. So, and Rob and Robbie Ray was one of the names that we came up with on that bike ride in Cornwall that we went on for that day. Oh, I'm so happy for you both. What a profoundly moving thing. And I just, before I get onto your failure, I want to talk to you about parenthood, because I came across this quote that I could not love more about surrogacy. Because I feel that a lot of people who are in cis relationships and get pregnant without issue don't understand how hard it is to go through what you and Lance went through and indeed to go through a bit of what I'm going through my fertility journey has not been

straightforward and you gave this quote when someone asked you if you wanted more kids and you said it's not quite as easy as a bottle of wine and a good time a lot of thought has to go into it and it's so true because I actually think, and I don't know what you think about this. I'm interested in hearing your opinion. It probably makes you into a more thoughtful considered parent because you have to go through so much thinking before you get to the baby. Yeah, of course. I think, you know, like you say, some parents are able to conceive really quickly and really easily without really thinking about it. Some people struggle for years. Some people end up giving up and when they give up, that's when it happens. And some people

have to go through all kinds of different fertility treatments and all kinds of things. And like you say, when you aren't able to have something, and obviously, as two men, we weren't able to have kids naturally. Yeah, of course, it makes you really, really think really, really consider and it's like something that you've wanted so much for your whole life. I remember when I was 16 years old, I used to buy kids clothes at airports because I was so excited about one day becoming a parent. And that was before I even met Lance. So it's something that I've always, always dreamed of. And honestly, Robbie is and raising Robbie will always be the biggest achievement in my life, but like better than any Olympic medal

any world championship medal nothing will compare to that feeling of I dropped him off to school earlier and like I count down the minutes to when I can like pick him up again and just see him like when I get to the school gate and he like sees me he's just like papa papa and he's like he gets so excited and he runs out and it's just like there's no better feeling than that and um yeah it's super sweet don't answer this if you find it too personal but i just wanted to know a bit about the experience of surrogacy because i get the impression that you're someone who holds yourself to very high standards and quite often that kind of person is a perfectionist and likes control i don't know if that's ringing any bells. Yes, I mean, I do like, yeah, yes.

I'm in that category as well. What's it like handing over a pregnancy of your child to someone else? She's our family now. Like she is someone that we speak to nearly every single day. We FaceTime all the time. I probably speak to her more than most of my friends. She is an extremely special person, as is her family and her kids. And honestly, it's like I never really knew what to expect going into this. But it was a magical, magical experience. And for our surrogate as well, who like is asked not to be named, but

she is just so incredibly caring. And literally she said to us after like that it was such a magical experience for her. She was like, if you ever want to have any more kids, it would be my honor. And I like, and she's just very, she's our guardian angel. She's the person that was able to make our dreams of having a family come true. And, you know, there's something so incredibly special about that. Thank you so, so much, Tom. I really appreciate you opening up about that. Let's get on to your failures because there's plenty to say about them.

The first one you've chosen is Rio 2016, which you describe as the worst event ever. Tell us about that. Rio 2016 was the Olympics right after London 2012, where for me, Beijing 2008, I was a kid, didn't really know what I was doing. It was all about experience. London 2012 was the first event where I had this expectation and this pressure to win a medal in front of a home crowd. Then I had this period of like dark times to get back into it. And then I realized once I moved to London, I had met Lance. Going into 2016, I was in the best physical condition. I was in the best mental condition of my life.

And I felt like it was going to be my time to win the Olympic gold medal. For the third time of trying, I thought it was going to be my time to win the Olympic gold medal. For the third time of trying, I thought it was going to be my time. I had won most of the events going into it. I was feeling so confident. We won a bronze medal in the synchro with Dan Goodfellow. And then into the individual event, I went into the preliminary rounds where it's like the top 30 people. I won that event with an Olympic record. And again, going into day two of the event, we have the semifinals and I was feeling so confident. Like I've gone to the top 18 and then the next time it's the top 12. I go into that competition, like the first dive didn't go too great. And then everything that

followed started to fall apart and crumble. And no matter what I did, there was nothing that I could do that could get me back into that place that I was the night before. There were so many factors into that. I was at my leanest and not probably eating enough. My energy levels were depleted. My nervous system probably didn't have enough fight in me to get to the final and I completely bombed out and had the lowest score that I'd ever scored

probably in about eight years at that Olympics and came in 18th place I was so destroyed like I had never felt emotion like it because it was so shocking and unexpected for me for what I thought was going to happen that day and again always comes back to you goes to show like you never know what's going to happen no matter how well prepared you are no matter how well you think you're doing things can happen and in the press conference afterwards being like it's not the end of me I am going to keep fighting I'm going to keep going and I went to my husband who was there afterwards out the back of the pool. I just remember like breaking down and being like, I don't know what to do. I tried everything. I sacrificed so much going into it. I didn't go out with my friends. I was in bed by

nine o'clock every day. I was making sure I was eating everything right. I literally did every single thing possible that I could do. And he just said to me, Tom, your story isn't over here. This event, this Rio 2016 will be a moment in the past. Like this is nothing for you. Your story is not finished being written. And I just said to him, I was like, what do you mean? Like, what, how am I going to come back from this? This is it. Like, I'm going to be too old at the next one. I'm never going to be able to like be at the same place that I am today. And he just said, well, maybe today wasn't meant to be. Maybe you are meant to win an Olympic gold medal in four years time in front of our future child. And it was like, you know, but it's like, it was so beautiful. You know, at the time there was nothing really that was going to

get me through it. And I just was like, you know what, I've got a lot to look forward to. I'm more than just a diver. And it was in that moment that I had to realize and find the fact that I'm more than just a diver. How I dive does not define me. I had a wedding to look forward to the next year. And we were going down the process of having a kit. There were so many things to look forward to. And I just, that was a real turning point in the way that I thought about diving and my life in general. And did anyone other than Lance help you with that turning point? Or was that something that you had to do for yourself? How do you shift a perspective when you are at such a low point?

I was really lucky to have worked with an amazing sports psychologist, Kate Hayes, and I've worked with her for a very long time. And she helped me all the way through my diving career, through my ups, through my downs, through everything, as well as Lance being there as a sounding board too. And now Kate works with the lionesses and is the is the psychologist for the team going into the euros and all of that so yeah I was very lucky to have a lot of support there where it was like you know what although that was like the lowest moment in my diving career it was a thing that turned it around and you know the following year was the I won the world championships and I was just like okay I'm back I can do this I always think when I speak to athletes that we all need sports psychologists just in our daily

lives. They sound amazing. That ability to shift your thinking to remain present is such an astonishing life skill. I want to talk to you before we get onto what happened next, I want to get into how vulnerable you must feel because you're standing there on a diving board way up high in front of the world's media, in front of a crowded auditorium in the swimming pool, about to do something physically so dangerous and challenging, and you're barely wearing anything. And it just struck me when I was preparing this interview, And you're barely wearing anything. And it just struck me when I was preparing this interview, how unbelievably vulnerable that must make you feel. Yeah, there's not many people that can say they wear more to bed than they do to work. But that's me. But like you say, like you're stood up on the diving board and not very much. And I've had lots of different issues with with that concept for a while like before

the Olympics in 2012 I was told by my performance director that I was fat and I had to lose weight and it was the first time that I saw my body as something that wasn't just what I was using to dive but people were looking at it to see how much body fat percentage I had. And that then caused a period of bulimia where I was really, and I found it extremely difficult every day to eat and not feel guilty about what I had eaten, if I put weight on and there was all of these things. So yes, it is a very vulnerable position to be in on that diving board. And then once you add into that all of the pressures of actually performing and all of the pressures of getting that one chance, you know, in the Olympic Games, it's once every four years and you've got six dives. And you think about how many thousands of dives I do in that period of time building up to it.

It's quite an intense position to be in for sure. Thank you so much talking about that, because I think it's really important that we all understand that disordered eating affects all genders and that's very courageous of you to talk about it where are you now with how you feel about your body some days I have good days some days I have bad days there's also an adjustment in the fact that I haven't set foot on a diving board since the Tokyo Olympics so there's that period of time where I'm like you know what like I need to figure out what that transition might look like out of sport or when I get back into sport am I going to be really hard on myself like there's that period of time where I'm like, you know what, like, I need to figure out what that transition might look like out of sport. Or when I get back into sport, am I going to be really hard on myself? Like, there's so many things I have to think about every day with it. And one of the

things I always try to do is be kind to myself, be forgiving of myself, if I make mistakes, sometimes the thoughts I have that I say to myself, I'm like, would I ever say that to somebody else? And why would you treat yourself any lesser than what you might say to somebody else? I totally agree. I always remind myself to talk to myself as I would talk to my best friend. Yes, exactly. And you're not going to say the things that you say in your head to your best mate. So yeah. Let's talk about what happened next after Rio 2016, the worst event ever in your words, the next Olympics was 2020. Now, it sounds like your mindset had shifted in the interim. But what happened for you in 2020? I went into 2020 with a completely different perspective. I had perspective, essentially. I went into those Olympics after two

years of pandemic where things had changed with the Olympics had moved and like the thought of the Olympics moving was so unthinkable and being a parent and I just went into those games and I was like you know what no matter what happens at these Olympicslympics i know that i'm going to go home to a family and friends that love me and will celebrate whatever i achieve at these olympic games and again i'm more than just a diver i am a father i'm a husband i'm a friend i'm a brother i'm a son at knitter but there were so many other things that i was doing that I was just like, you know what, I'm content. And I think that was the real power of going into that competition was I felt at peace with everything that I had done. And I remember going into that competition with Matty for the synchro.

And that's the most high pressure situation because there's only six dives. It's a straight final there's no second chances you have to just go into it and if you mess up a dive you're out and it's over and it's gone so I I just remember going through dive by dive and being able to zone out in between each dive with some knitting I know it sounds crazy but I do think the reason that I was able to hold it together and also keep Matty as well in that same headspace was because of knitting because there was there was so much time to overthink because of the COVID Olympics it was you couldn't socialize you couldn't do anything outside the village you had to either be eating in the dining hall and then leave right away and then stay in

your room until it was time to leave to go to training so there was a lot of time just to sit around and worry and I think that was what got me out of my head and yeah to come away with that Olympic gold medal and that I just remember seeing the scores come up for the Chinese divers last dive and I was looking in the corner of the scoreboard and I had to see a number two to know that we were number one and I remember just seeing that number two flash up and I just there was this moment of going into those Olympics where I thought I was going to have to get ready to try and be comfortable with the fact

that I was never going to be an Olympic champion. And to have it come true was just, yeah, it was mind-blowing. Do you think almost you have to let go? It's a difficult one, isn't it? Because on the one hand, we're told to manifest our dreams and our future. And on the other hand, we're told to let go of a goal if it's putting too much pressure on us. And I suppose maybe it's finding the equilibrium. But do you think that there was something for you where you had to let go of the dream in order to achieve it?

You know, there's a couple of things. So during lockdown, we had this date night thing where either Lance or I would cook and then the other person would come up with an activity. And one of the activities that I came up with one week was to paint on canvases because we wanted to hang some things up on a wall. So I painted these canvases and with Lance one week and like some of them were absolutely awful. like some of them were absolutely awful so then the next week Lance just came up with the idea he got some gold leaf to cover up one of the paintings so that it would be by the front door every single time I left to think about an Olympic gold but also on that canvas we both wrote our ultimate dream in the next five years on that canvas and I wrote to become Olympic champion and it's covered and Lance wrote I won't say because Lance is still on that canvas and I wrote to become Olympic champion and it's covered and Lance wrote I won't say because Lance is still on that journey but then we covered it up with

gold leaf but then we knew every time we left the house that that was there so in a way there was that manifesting and I think it is important to manifest and visualize because I did that every single day I was visualizing a lot but when you're there and when you're doing it and when you're in it you have to be in it you can't be visualizing the and when you're doing it and when you're in it you have to be in it you can't be visualizing the outcome when you're in it because while you're in it you have to be fully invested in the process in order for the outcome to go your way that's fascinating so you can visualize as part of your preparation and then you have to be in it you have to be in the process that's so interesting and so applicable to so many areas of life now it doesn't escape my notice that you

did win gold when your son was alive and there to witness it so what was Robbie's reaction what does he think of your gold medal because none of my family or friends were able to come to Tokyo because like no spectators were allowed they were in Canada so my mum Lance and Robbie they were all in Canada watching online Rob it was the middle of the night there in Canada so my mum Lance and Robbie they were all in Canada watching online Rob it was the middle of the night there in Canada I think it was like 2am 3am and they woke Robbie up to watch it and you know I think he was like half asleep on the sofa and then there's that video of the reaction to the last dive where we had won the gold of Lance jumping up and screaming and yeah I think it's funny it was actually

yesterday morning was the first morning where I think Robbie started to understand what Papa does in a way because he said to me Papa why is it whenever we leave the house people want to have photos with you and not me so great question and I was like one it was kind of funny because I'm thinking when I'm pushing on him on his little bike and I have a photo he's probably thinking why don't they want a photo with me I just said to him oh you know when papa went to the olympics some people want to have photos of people that went to the olympics and he went but why and I was like okay I was like what do you really like and he was I really like paw patrol and I was like okay so I said imagine if you really like Paw Patrol. And I was like, okay. So I said, imagine if you saw like Chase and Ryder walking down the street, would you want to have a photo with them? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, so it's kind of like

that. And he was like, well, but no, Papa, they're cool. And I was like, are you saying Papa's not cool? And he was like, you're not cool, Papa. And I was like, okay. I was like, well, you know, if there's ever a way to get you down to earth and ground you each to your own yeah exactly I said all right fine that's so so sweet Peyton it's happening we're finally being recognized for being very online it's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct.

You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity

news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides, don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Can I ask you, after you won gold,

how did that feel? Did it live up to your expectations? And do you feel a sense of relief now that you've done it? And so it kind of releases you to the rest of your life. Yeah. It was like this complete euphoric moment that I was just so like, and, you know, all the other athletes and divers are coming up like, you know, finally or at last kind of thing. And it was very surreal because normally there's an audience and there's like that feeling lasts for a very long time because there's like the atmosphere that stays, you know, it's just athletes. As soon as it happened, it was like, whee, and then everyone went back on the bus or everyone went to training. Honestly, it did. I remember calling Lance and my mom like as soon as I could. And honestly,

the next day when I woke up was the first day that I woke up with a real sense of peace, feeling like, you know, if I die tomorrow, I've done everything I want to achieve. There's nothing more in this sport that I can achieve now in terms of like other events to win. And I just was like, you know what? And like you say, there was that relief, but also that feeling of like, I'm happy. I'm so happy for you, Tom. So let's get on to your second failure. Such an interesting one. It's your fear of mistakes, which you describe as your twister. So tell us about your fear of mistakes. When do you think it started? Gosh, there's so many of that. So I don't know if you like saw like Simone Biles during the Olympics last year, where she was having problems with one of her twisting dives yes I had a very similar

thing going into London 2012 and it was then amplified by the fact that in London 2012 in the final there was loads of flash photography I got lost on one of my twisting dives I asked for a re-dive and then got granted a re-dive which was the first re-dive in the history of an Olympic final so then I was up there doing this dive where I had no idea like what was going to happen next because I just got lost and my body kind of took over. And I was like, I have to go up and do this. The most scary thing that I can actually try and imagine in front of 18,000 people in the audience and then millions of people watching at home. And it was so terrifying to go and do that, that afterwards that added to the down that

I was having post Olympics, because I was then having to figure out what I was going to do with this dive. And I just kept on trying to plod along doing what I could and not making the correct technical changes in order to be able to make the dive better. And it just kept on getting worse and worse and worse to the point where I actually when I moved coaches and moved to London, my coach came to me with a video from Cirque du Soleil on a Russian swing, a circus trick, essentially. She was like, see this, this circus trick, I think has something in it that could possibly become an Olympic dive. And I think we can work on this together. And we worked and worked and worked to get it to a point where I was the first person to compete this dive. But I used to find myself not wanting to push myself and make those changes and do those technical things because I would worry about really making mistakes

and setting myself back. But I got to a point where I realized like, if I don't try and change, I don't try and push myself forwards, I'm just going to stay the same or plateau or get worse and I had to start to get comfortable with making changes and allowing myself to make those mistakes if they didn't quite go right but being kind to myself in that process to allow myself to do it again because without making those changes and therefore making sometimes mistakes I never was going to get on the trajectory that I needed to in order to eventually win that Olympic gold. Without mistakes, there is no growth, plain and simple. But do you think that that fear of mistakes that you had, did that relate to other areas of your life as well? Or was it just diving? Everything. I think I've always had this fear of making mistakes or fearing of not being good. Because I think when you're growing up,

had this fear of making mistakes or fearing of not being good because I think when you're growing up especially growing up as a queer kid you figure out like you don't want to disappoint in any more ways so you've I found myself really trying to be an overachiever in every single thing that I did in order to make up for the fact that I had this thing that I thought was wrong with me at the time because you hear so many different things from different people and different things where like, it's always like has this like bad connotation towards it. And I just felt like I had to be the person to overachieve to make up for the fact that I had this defect, if you like, as how I thought of it back then. And, you know, it was once coming out and actually figuring out to actually accept who I was, that was when things started to change in that way. And fear more generally, does that play a part in your life?

Yes. I mean, well, even when I was diving, every time I went up onto the 10 meter board, I would be terrified every single time. Every single time I'd be up there, you don't know what could happen, what little mistakes could happen you could get too close to the board you could hit your head I mean I've landed flat bruises coughed up blood broken ribs you know you name it it's it's you could do I've torn so many muscles I broke my hand you know going into the Olympics last year there were so many things everything that could have gone wrong in the build-up to those olympics did like i got covid and was knocked out for about nine weeks and hospitalized for a night because it was it got bad yeah and then i tore my meniscus and had a bucket handle tear on my left knee six weeks

before the olympics and had to have knee surgery so then i had knee surgery and only got back up on the diving boards two weeks before those Olympics. And that was where fear kind of came into it. And I was like, you know, I got to a point where I was like, there's nothing more I can do. I've done everything that I can. And that was part of it as well, of like surrendering myself to the process. Like I've manifested and manifested. And I'm going to keep visualizing myself doing what I want to do.

But I can only do as much as I can. And I have to listen to my body as well. So it was a very challenging year and it just, but everything fell into place at the right time. I read something that you said about fear being excitement, but without breath. Is that right? Have I quoted that right? I thought that was brilliant. I want that laminated somewhere. It was something that Greg Louganis, who is my diving hero, he was the one who hit his head on the diving board in the Olympics in Seoul and then went on to win still. Yeah, he said to me exactly that. And I do lots of breathing techniques in order to manage anxiety and be calm when I'm competing.

But he used to say exactly that, that fear is just excitement without breathing and you if you are nervous going into a competition and you take the time to just like center yourself and breathe you all of a sudden start to feel instead of that fear and the anxiety of what can go wrong you get excited about what could be and I think that was something that I really it really took on going into those Olympics incredible life advice it strikes me listening to you I'm reminded of an interview that I did with Matthew Said, who was a table tennis Olympic competitor, and now is an incredible author and a sort of life guru who looks at ideas and black box thinking and all of that. And he introduced me to the notion of post-traumatic growth, where something knocks you or there's a defeat and there's a low point. But after that, there's a time when your growth is accelerated because of

what you've been through. And it just strikes me talking to you, and I started off the introduction saying that you're 28, but you've got the life of a much older person, that actually so much of your wisdom comes from post-traumatic growth do you think that's fair yeah absolutely and I think that's the thing with sport is that you have lots of traumatic occasions whether they be small or whether they be big whether it's injury or whether it's psychological whether it's defeats within the sporting competition round whether it's defeats on the small like scale each day in training, but then you get those little wins

and then those things that you feel like you learn from and you move on to like be something that you never thought that you could be. And then that feeds into the growth on the other side of those traumatic events. So yeah, I totally think that is exactly right. And the thing is, I think is so amazing about sport

is it's such a young career that you start it at such a young age. I've had the same experiences in the 21 years that I've been diving as somebody might have in like a 20 year career that they would work in an office or something from the ages of 22 to 42, 43. So there are so many parallels with sport to the real world, if you like, whether it's goal setting, determination, setbacks, the pressure, the anxiety, the worry, the joy, the complete commiseration or whatever it may be. There's so many things that sport can teach you going into life in general. Fun fact about me, Tom, I can't dive. I can't dive dive it scares the bejesus out of me so I don't know how you do it it's that thing of having to put your head in your head is basically yeah diving towards concrete

but it's one of those things it's when people like do diving and dive off a platform they often dive like the way swimmers do with like one hand on top of each other kind of like streamline and the way to actually dive in for a diver is completely different to that your hand has to hit the water flat to protect your head on top of you and there's this whole science behind it where you hit the water and as soon as you hit the water you flick your wrists apart and when you flick your wrists apart it creates three bubbles and it creates a vacuum that sucks you under the water which is why divers can go in without any splash wow what a. I know. Any man that I have ever had a relationship with has always insisted that they can teach me how to dive and they have always failed. And I've never

wanted to learn, I suppose, because I just had like very bad experiences at school, but I truly believe that you, Tom Daley could teach me how to dive. What's your top tip for someone who's learning or who has never learned?'s your top tip your eyes are the most important thing and one thing I think lots of people don't realize is that your head weighs so much for every degree that you lean your head forward or back your body is going to move so always lead with your eyes and if you are diving into the pool always look where you want to go so for me I would say making sure that you look where you're going I know it sounds like obvious but lots of people don't or they close their eyes and they duck their head and

so yeah look where you're going okay thank you so much I will report back great I do like swimming it's just the diving anyway um we're getting on to your third failure now which is your knitting fails I'm so glad we've got to the knitting. Yay, knitting, knitting, knitting. I know, I literally, before I came on, I was like here knitting. Like I've been, I just, I mean, I knit all the time. I take it with me everywhere. I've had so many knitting fails.

And again, I do find that lots of the different things that I throw myself into teach me lots of things from when things go wrong. I can transfer lots of the things that I throw myself into teach me lots of things from when things go wrong I can transfer lots of the things I've learned into other areas to give you the story of why I started knitting and how I started knitting in March 2020 before the pandemic my coach said to me you don't sit still you need to find something where you can rest and recover and do nothing so then my husband said well people on film sets knit squares why don't you try that so I did I got some needles and yarn and I was trying and I was I just couldn't do it I found it really difficult started doing YouTube tutorials started

to get the hang of it and then some of the other divers on the circuit one from Australia one from Russia and a Chinese coach that moved to the UK knew how to do and they were giving me some little tips and then I started to like get into the groove of it and then every project I did after that I learned a new skill I learned a new stitch or I learned something else and that was when I made made with love by Tom Daley the Instagram because I didn't want to like bombard my Instagram with loads of knitting because I thought oh my god people aren't going to want to see me knitting are you joking so then once I got to a point where I was confident with knitting I then started to design my own things and then the Olympic knitting thing happened The big lesson that I've drawn from knitting is one,

that there are no rules, but in terms of failing, I found myself getting really frustrated when I would do something wrong or I'd spot something where I would have to unravel the whole thing. And my big thing that I learned and I read somewhere online was that when you do fail and when you do have to unravel it all, which we call frogging in the knitting world, like it's not starting from scratch. It's starting from experience because you've had all of those things happen to you. And I was like, that's something that I then was like, oh my gosh, you're right. You're not starting from scratch because you've learned so much in the process where you went wrong you're starting from a place of experience and I'm like I've then started to transfer that all into my diving I was like all

of the things I've gone wrong each time I go into a competition it's not starting from scratch it's starting from experience and being able to constantly tell myself that I've experienced so many different things there's lots of things I've been in this position before. I know how to deal with this. And I think that was one of the big things that I've learned from my knitting fails. That is one of the most meaningful things I've ever heard on this podcast. And it's come about from knitting. And I'm obsessed with it.

You don't start from scratch. You start from experience. That is everything that how to fail is about yeah exactly that and it really does teach you a lot because I think people constantly see their fails as something that like oh I've got to start again like that's the worst thing and that isn't the fail that it's actually something that's really kind of quite empowering if you turn it into starting from a place of experience. You know, the definition of insanity really is trying the same thing over and over again without expecting a different outcome. So once you start from a place where you're going to change

maybe just one thing, it can send that root of that idea or that thought into a completely different direction. Oh my goodness, I'm obsessed. Thank you. What's the thing that you've knitted that you're proudest of? I think I have to say my the Olympic cardigan that I made because I went into those Olympics. I said, I want to take some yarn over there, make something that I've designed myself and something that I can look back in, say, 40 years time with my little memory box and be like, this is something that I made back in the day in 2021. And I think that for me is something that I'm really proud of. 2021. And I think that for me is something that I'm really proud of. And it's kind of really the thing that started my journey of becoming, and it sounds crazy to say, but becoming a knitwear designer now and like being able to figure out a new passion later in life for me, because like I say, diving is such a young career and to be able to have something that I'm just as passionate about as I am diving in the space of knitting is just something that I'm really, really grateful for now.

Did I make this up or did you once tell me that you'd knitted pouches for your Olympic medals? Yes, I did. I knit Union Jack pouches. So on one side, it's a Union Jack and on the other side, it's a Japanese flag. And it's what I keep my Olympic medals in if I'm taking them out and about and don't want to take the big box because usually I just used to put it in a sock so it's a little bit more I don't know glamour maybe not even that glamorous but yeah it makes it a little bit more personal bespoke yes and what are you knitting at the moment Tom so I'm knitting a red jumper at the moment, a red cable jumper, because like we're coming into like sweater weather season now.

So I'm always knitting something. I've made hats recently for Robbie and for Lance for the winter, making jumpers. And then it's, you know, soon I need to start making my Christmas jumpers because, you know, they're not going to make themselves. They're not, Tom, you need to get on it right now. I know. you know they're not going to make themselves they're not Tommy you need to get on it right now no I know what's next for you I know it's a horrible question but over the next sort of 10 years what future are you manifesting for yourself now what will it involve in 10 years time I would love to think that our family is a little bit bigger I would love to one day have like a fashion week show like a London fashion week show and I would love to one day have like a Fashion Week show, like a London Fashion Week show. And I would love to learn more about fashion design.

And I feel like that's the space I want to go into. I'm one of those people that has so many different ideas and lots of things that I want to do and want to try. And I'm of that mind of like, why not try it? Like if you don't ask, you don't get. Try and just do whatever you can. And, you know, I'd love to be a tv host maybe work in like film and tv I don't know there's lots of different things that I would give a try I can see it all are you someone who thinks about life purpose if you had to connect all of those

wonderful aspects of yourself what do you see the connecting thread as why do you think you were put on this earth I would love to think that and especially now with being a parent I've tried to fight for lots of LGBTQ plus rights as well and I would just love to be able to leave and also with like knitting and it being slow fashion and more sustainable I I would love to be able to say that I did my little bit in leaving the world a better place, more accepting, more kinder, healthier place for my son when I leave it. And I hope that he thinks that he should be part of doing the same for if he ever has any kids. Because I think that's what we're all here for is to try and leave it a better place rather than damage it and leave it in a

worse place than when we came in. Tom Daley, you've made this podcast a better place rather than damage it and leave it in a worse place than than when we came in. Tom Daley, you've made this podcast a better place just through the sheer joy of your presence. I love talking to you so, so much. It has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Tom Daley, for coming on How to Fail. I mean, thank you for having me. It's been great. It's like therapy. I love it. Thank you. Ultimate compliment. Thank you. Yes. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.