How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, Ep11 How To Fail: Geena Davis, the Oscar-winning actress on fame, feminism and being diagnosed with ADD in her 40s

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

I am obsessed with today's guest and I'm not even going to pretend otherwise. Geena Davis, the star of such seminal movies as Tootsie, Beetlejuice, Thelma & Louise, A League of Their Own and the underrated classic, The Long Kiss Goodnight, TURNED UP AT MY ACTUAL HOUSE to record a witty, warm and fascinating conversation.*We talk about her feelings of imposter syndrome and self-doubt in the early days of her career, the fact that her failure as a model led to her first film role alongside Dustin Hoffman (who gave her incredible advice on how to defend herself against the amorous advances of her male co-stars) and the revelation of being diagnosed with ADD in her 40s. Along the way, we touch on height (she's 6ft! A tall woman like me!), the #MeToo movement, representation, almost becoming an Olympic archer, being an older mother and the seismic impact her friendship with Susan Sarandon had on Davis's life. I can't wait for you all to listen.*yes, she met my ginger cat Huxley and they got along famously.--Geena Davis's gloriously warm and ironic memoir, Dying of Politeness, is out now: https://www.waterstones.com/book/dying-of-politeness/geena-davis/9780008508111--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Geena Davis Institute @geenadavisorg Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Gina Davis is not your conventional Hollywood movie star. First off, she's tall, and as we know, most celebrities are absolutely tiny. Then there's the fact she speaks fluent Swedish and almost competed in the Olympics as part of the US archery team. She once decorated a guest bedroom with 50 cuckoo clocks. And as an actor, she's played a woman whose boyfriend was transformed into a fly and the adoptive mother of an animated mouse. In her 40s, she launched an institute to call for greater diversity and gender parity on screen, which saw her collect an honorary Oscar and Emmy. Born and raised in Massachusetts, she studied drama at Boston University

and after failing to graduate, found work as a model in New York, which eventually led to her being cast in her first movie role in Tootsie alongside Dustin Hoffman. The Fly and Beetlejuice followed. Davis won an Academy Award for her part in The Accidental Tourist in 1988, but arguably it was her performances in Thelma and Louise and A League of Their Own that would leave their mark on generations of women to come, myself included. Her witty and revealing new memoir, Dying of Politeness, has just been published. In it, she writes, my whole life I couldn't bear the idea that I'd be caught out not knowing how to do something. In many, many cases, I've just pretended like I already knew how to do something in case it was shameful not to know how to do whatever it was. Gina Davis,

welcome to How to Fail. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to have you here. Yes. And I had to cut down the introduction because there was so much I wanted to say and I was like, no, we need to get to the actual interview. But one of the things I didn't mention was how much I absolutely love The Long Kiss Goodnight. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. Thank you, me too. And you basically play a female Jason Bourne in that before Jason Bourne was even a twinkle in anyone's eye. Right, right. So I loved it.

And you were a badass assassin and you did most of your own stunts, didn't you? Yes, yes, I did. I did. And is that what you mean when you said that quote there, that idea of faking it till you make it? Like, as actors, you often ask things like, oh, can you ride a horse? And did you often say yes, even if you couldn't? Well, yeah. Well, I sort of had this philosophy that I could learn pretty much anything that was needed.

And fortunately, I got a lot of parts where I had to have some skill that I didn't have. And so for Lunkin's Good Night, I studied taekwondo and I had to learn ice skating because there's a scene where I'm killing people on ice and then pistol shooting, of course, and all that. And then I had to learn sword fighting and horseback riding for Cutthroat Island. So I've had to learn a lot of skills. And baseball for a little bit. And baseball, yes, that was the big one. Yeah, that was the first time I had to learn a real skill for a role. And did it teach you that your capacity was greater than you might have thought for learning new things? Oh, absolutely. Especially sports, especially physical things, because growing up so tall, I call it being physically shy. I didn't want to do things that would cause people to, you know, attract even more attention.

I was busy trying to take up less space in the world. And so I wasn't on the girls' basketball team or anything like that. And I assumed that I was probably uncoordinated. But when I had to learn baseball for that movie, all of a sudden, it was like, I mean, the coaches were saying, wow, you're really gifted athletically. And I was like, oh, my God, I did not know this. So it was incredible. This whole other side to you that you discovered as an adult is wonderful.

That idea of being scared to take up too much space is a recurring theme throughout your brilliant memoir dying of politeness which as it says on the tin is about the fact that you I hope I'm not overstepping here but that you're an inveterate people pleaser and it was more important for you to be polite than actually to say how you felt and there are lots of examples of that during the book yes but one of the funniest and also the most terrifying comes when you're about eight years old and you're in a car. Will you tell us that story? Right. Well, that's when I came very close to literally dying of politeness. I was in my great uncle's car with my parents. We were in the back seat and great uncle Jack and great aunt Marion were in the front and 99 year

old uncle Jack was driving at night. And that didn't work out very well, as you can imagine. It was thankfully a nearly empty road and very narrow. And he kept veering into the oncoming traffic lane and then veering back into our lane. And my parents didn't say anything about this. Didn't say, hey, you know, Jack, maybe I should drive or anything like that. about this, didn't say, hey, you know, Jack, maybe I should drive or anything like that. So then eventually a car was coming on the other side in the other direction, and he veered into their lane. And there was nowhere for them to go to get away from us because it was so narrow.

But my parents still said nothing. And we were going to have a head-on collision with this car. We're going to have a head-on collision with this car. And at the last instant, Marion said, a little to the right, Jack. And he just veered over to the right. And they zoomed past us with like inches of clearance. And so I only later realized they would have rather died than say anything. Forget about saying, oh, my God, you're going to kill us, pull over. My dad could have said a little to the right, Jack, you know, politely, but that was too much. That was too much. It's fascinating because I know that you

have a brother, Dan, but I wonder whether you feel that this expectation of politeness and pliability is a gendered thing. Is it more expected of women than men? Well, I can only talk about my family, but it was expected of Dan as well. My dad was insanely polite and kind and generous and would never ask for anything. I was taught to never, basically never have needs, never ask for anything that the point was to not be trouble to someone else more than just being polite by saying please and thank you it was about being utterly self-effacing like I don't have any needs I'm not hungry I don't feel you have to put yourself out for me was the idea and I will do whatever I can to meet your needs, person asking me.

So then how does that translate later on in the movie industry? Because I know that you've had experiences with men who have asked things of you where you haven't always felt that you can stand up for yourself. And by the way, if I were a Hollywood superstar, one can only dream, I would have been exactly the same. Right, right. It's so hard to been exactly the same. Right, right. It's so hard to do in the moment. Right, right. Because the whole thing is about wanting to get jobs and feeling like people must like you in order to hire you and want to work with you. And I think in that circumstance, it is more incumbent upon women.

that circumstance, it is more incumbent upon women, the feeling that I have to be really nice and really cooperative and never cause any trouble or they won't hire me. But I don't think that male actors feel that as much as we do. Tell us about Susan Sarandon in Thelma and Louise. Obviously, we have to talk about Thelma and Louise. And there was this moment where you knew you had things that you wanted to raise about the script from the director, Ridley Scott. Yes. And you were thinking, oh, how can I best put this? And coming up with a litany of mitigating words. Right, right. And then what happened?

Yes, I planned very carefully about each little tiny thing that I wanted to bring up. I'll say this one as if I'm making a joke, but then he might think, hmm, but actually that's a good point, you know, or I'll try to make him think this was his idea. You know, it was crazy. And then I met Susan Sarandon for the first time and was blown away immediately just by her poise and presence. So we sit down and we're just going to page through the script and see if there's anything we want to talk about. And Susan immediately says, you know this line, I think we should just cut it. And it sounds so innocuous, but to me it was like, what just happened? She just started out, launched right in saying, I want to cut a piece of the script. And I looked at Reedley like, how's he going to react? And he just said, oh, yeah, actually, that's a good idea.

Yeah, let's take that out. And I said, what am I watching here? This is like a different planet or something. And the whole afternoon was like that. And then the whole experience of shooting the movie was like that, to watch the way she very comfortably and naturally moved through the world to no one's shock or horror. You know, that was the other part was not only seeing her say what she thought easily and comfortably,

but to see that people didn't fall over and react like, oh, my God, she's actually speaking her thoughts. Because I was so trained to never, never voice your opinion. Did you ever have a conversation or have you had a conversation recently with Susan about how she got to be like that? Gosh, we must have, you know, in the beginning 30 years ago. But I think it was that she was always like that. You know, she was the firstborn, I believe. And she just had always been.

I mean, you know, maybe it was her upbringing. Maybe, you know know in her family that was completely normal you have always described yourself as a feminist even when it was untrendy to do so and I think for a lot of listeners it will be shocking to hear that but I remember this very vividly in the 90s and early 2000s to say if you were a woman in the public eye that you were unapologetically feminist people thought that that was quite shocking yes yes and I remember I once had a female actor complain after I had written a piece about her in which I described her as feminist with all words that she had used and she said could you tone it down a bit because I want to sound a bit less feminist

oh right wild yes because times happily have changed But my experience as a woman is that I feel more radicalized as a feminist the older I get. Has that been your experience? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I worked with Polly Bergen, was very well known back in the day. She played my mother on something and she was about 80. And I couldn't believe how she behaved on set was so salty and making like such vulgar remarks and, you know, just saying all this stuff. And I said, wow, you really just, whatever you feel like saying, she said, honey, when you get to be my age, you don't get me. So I was like, all right, then when I get to be that age, I'm going to be, I'm going to let loose also. But yeah, definitely, definitely you get, you know, you just experience it more and it builds up. Then when I get to be that age, I'm going to be, I'm going to let loose also. But yeah, definitely, definitely.

You get, you know, you just experience it more and it builds up. Yeah. And has that been your experience of aging? Has it been liberating for you rather than anything else? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I feel like every year that goes by, I feel more like myself. You know, there's less need to try to convince everybody that I'm the nicest person in the world and all that kind of stuff. Well, you are very nice and very delightful.

And you don't even need to try with me, Gina. This podcast is obviously all about failure. And in popular culture, there is a very, very visible symbol of what seems to be success, which is winning an Oscar. You are one of the rare people who has actually won an Oscar, and I can ask this question of, what does it feel like? Does it genuinely feel like a wholehearted success, and does that feeling last? It did. I didn't even think about what it would feel like. I certainly didn't expect it to happen so early, but yes, it made me feel really good. You know, the reaction for me was, well, partly it was, okay, I got that out of the way. You know, like I don't have to spend decades wondering if I'll ever get an Oscar because

you know, I did that early. So I don't have to worry about that. But also like, it was validating. It really was. You felt seen. Yeah. That theme of visibility recurs throughout your career because the Gina Davis Institute, which I mentioned in the introduction, has done phenomenal amounts of work for the visibility of women on screen. And I would love just to hear from you a little bit about that work and specifically how powerful it is when we see ourselves represented on screen. Right, absolutely. It started because I became aware, suddenly when I had a little daughter,

I became aware of this giant gender imbalance in the TV shows and videos and things made for little kids, for the youngest kids. And I couldn't believe it. I was absolutely stunned. I figured, I mean, I knew there was terrific gender imbalance in the industry, but I just assumed that kids' things would at least be balanced, you know, because they're supposed to be educational and well thought out and all that.

And so I was kind of horrified, and it made me think, wait a minute. So we all have this unconscious gender bias and we're teaching kids from the beginning to have it. If we're showing boys and girls that girls take up less space and don't do as many interesting and important things, then the message just sinks in. So that's what spurred me to originally start to launch the Institute. And my firm belief was not only if we change what kids see from the beginning, it will lessen this gender discrimination. But if we show kids somebody that looks like them doing something interesting or important, they'll say, wait a minute, I can do that too. And also not only will it have that impact on girls,

but boys will say, oh, I think girls can do that too. Instead of being like, what? Girls can't do that. Only boys can do it. So, and it's absolutely true. We've proven it with all kinds of research that if it happens on screen it will happen in real life that's what i love as a kind of data geek it's so fascinating so the popularity of the hunger games right there was a direct correlation in terms of girls taking up archery yes we studied that it's so and the csi thing yes yes which is that forensic science there are loads of women who pursue it because of csi right it. It's called the CSI effect. And tell us about the commander in chief effect. Yes. Well, so unfortunately, my administration was very short. I really wanted two terms out of it,

but I didn't get that. But this is you playing a female president. The first female president. In a TV series. In a TV series, yes. And there was a survey done after the show was on, and it found that people were 58% more likely to vote for a female president than before the show. So just one show with one character, and it had that much impact. I'm sure it didn't last because, you know, you need to be reminded. It normalizes things. If you see it on the screen, it becomes normalized.

And, you know, if Commander-in-Chief had still been running when Hillary Clinton stood for election, then who knows what might have happened. It's true. Instead, we became familiarized with Donald Trump through The Apprentice, and so we started thinking of him as our, like, crazy uncle at the wedding who seems familiar but ultimately deranged. It's my reading.

OK, so before we get on to your failures, I just wanted to say I salute you for being so gracious about all of your exes in your memoir. Oh, thank you. You are very nice and very kind about them. And I was like, now that is a grown woman because I'm a terrible grudge bearer. Oh, I see. And I definitely feel like if I'd written this kind of memoir, I'd have settled some old scores.

Yeah. Well, yeah, I didn't want to do that, no. Let's get on to your failures. Assuming I have some, evidently, I guess. I know it's a difficult thing for you to do. Your first failure, and I'm so glad you've chosen this, having read about it in Dying of Politeness, is this school exchange to Sweden that you went on. Yes. So what happened?

So my junior year in high school, the school announced that they were going to start a foreign exchange program. And did anybody want to apply? And I immediately, desperately wanted to do that. I'd never even heard of it before. But I think it was that I would have a chance to reinvent myself early instead of waiting until I go away to college or something. Because I just felt like I was carrying this burden of being a little bit of a weirdo and I had, you know, I made all my clothes and I just didn't fit in exactly. I mean, kids liked me, but I wasn't, I think I was viewed as a little bit odd. And I think I thought if I go somewhere

else, they won't know that about me. They won't have grown up with me and maybe they will perceive me differently. So I immediately convinced my parents to see if we could afford to do that. And the only option they gave me as far as where to go was Sweden. They had a family in Sweden that was interested in having someone come there. So I was like, great, absolutely. Where is that? What are they? Okay. I mean, Sweden had never even entered my consciousness, but I was going to go there for a year.

Anyway, I get on the plane, and I'm waving goodbye to my parents at the airport, you know, and I suddenly realize, hang on. So in other words, I'm not going to see a single person I know for a year. So before I'd even left the ground, I was like, I've made a horrible mistake. And I got there and called my parents to tell them I got there safely. But all I could say was, I've made a horrible mistake. I have to come home immediately on the next plane.

Can you find out when the next plane is? And they were like, well, no, come on, stick it out. So that was horrifying. And then two days later, I started Swedish high school. Only two days after I got there and suddenly realized, oh, high school is in Swedish. It's like, how could I never have thought? Plus, how could the organizers of this thing never have thought about what exactly is going to happen? Because I just, I'm sitting there in class that's in Swedish. I'm thinking, what am I supposed to do?

I asked the teacher after the class, do you know what I'm supposed to do? She was like, I just don't know. I can't teach in English, you know, just for you. So I had to learn it very fast. So you were 17, is that right? Yes, I was 17. Okay, and this is an era before mobile phones, before the internet. Oh, yeah, no, before any of that, right.

So your communication with your parents was via letter and the occasional phone call, landline call. Yeah, just on holiday, like Christmas and my birthday. So, I mean, talk us through those first few weeks of how you felt. Oh, I was so homesick and so weirded out, you know, about, I just felt lost. Like, what am I supposed to do here? How am I going to make this work but I asked somebody what's the homework and I would look up every single word in the dictionary and like translate the textbook and started classes in the evenings and the family talked Swedish to me a lot

and taught me words but it was utter total immersion but And also it's totally different. Swedish is not an easy language to learn. It's so phenomenally different. And the culture of Sweden is different. Even the weather is different. Everything is very aged. The closest comparison I have in my own life, which is by no means a direct comparison,

is that I was sent to Russia as a 12-year-old for a month. No, you weren't. Really? Yes, in 1990. What was the idea? So I had been learning Russian at school. I went to school in the north of Ireland, and bizarrely this school taught Russian,

and I thought, well, that sounds cool. So I signed up to learn Russian. But I'd only been doing it for a weekly lesson for a few months. And my parents, who are adventurous spirits and great believers in the power of language, thought, oh, wonderful idea. We'll send her to Russia to live with the family. And I so related to the bit in your book where you arrive and you suddenly like,

oh my goodness, this is so different. I was on the top floor of a tower block and I hardly had any words at my disposal. And the one thing that I do remember is they showed me around the rooms and I kept saying, it's Voskusnje, Voskusnje, because I thought that meant lovely. Actually, it means delicious. So I was basically just saying, oh, this bedroom is delicious. Thank you so much. Oh, that's so cute. I know. But like you, the only means of contact I have with my parents is letters.

Yes. And I don't know whether you feel this, but I sometimes still have bad dreams, like nightmares, where I think I'm back and it's my first morning in Russia and I've just woken up and the knowledge has suddenly settled around my shoulders that I'm actually so far away from home. Right, right. No, I haven't had those kind of dreams, but I can understand. Yeah. Now, I came back fluent in Russian. So I imagine that you're completely fluent in Swedish. Yeah. I mean, it's so long ago now. It was, you know, 74. But yeah, it stuck in my hard drive somehow. So when did it turn around for you? Because I know that it

ended up being a positive experience. Yes, yes. Well, within about two months, I could understand most of what people were saying. I could get along, you know, and start to understand what the teachers were saying and all that. And by Christmas, I pretty much could read the textbooks and say whatever I needed to say. By January, I was dreaming in Swedish.

I was, I learned to, but probably this is like you with Russian, but I learned to think in Swedish, like I didn't have to translate anymore. And I still can think in Swedish. That's so cool. Isn't it interesting? Yes. My best friend is half Swedish. Really?

Yes. And she believes she's very shaped by the sort of Swedish psychology. Because they, my understanding from her is that they have a different way of metabolizing emotions, where sometimes they just won't have the emotion. They'll go and bury it in the forest is what she always says. Oh, interesting.

But I wonder how much the Swedish national character, if there is such a thing, affected you. Did it make you think about yourself differently or life differently? I can't say that I noticed that as much as that speaking a different language. I feel like a different person when I'm speaking Swedish a little bit, because I guess it's a different part of my brain or something, but that person was always more confident. And yeah, I don't know. It had a very good impact on me

overall, very much so. Yeah. And also when you're speaking a foreign language, people don't have a set of prejudices or assumptions attached to your accent. Right. Yeah. Right. Right.

Although I picked up Swedish with the accent of the local area that I was from, because when I meet people and have a conversation with them, they say, where did you live? And I say, Sandviken. And they're like, you sound like you're from there. Yeah, which is interesting. Are you big in Scandinavia? They must love you there.

I guess, yeah, yeah. Also, I married a Finn, Reddy Harland. So I have a whole connection with Scandinavia. And would you ever star in a Scandinandinavian noir oh my god i all i want to do is be in a movie in swedish because who gets to act in a different language i think it's pretty rare and i would love to do that yeah i would love you to do that yeah do you watch scandy box sets where it's like female detectives oh yeah nitware solving crimes yes i'm obsessed with them and you don't have to read the subtitles yes that's right lucky you so do you think sweden left you understanding that you had a capacity for

reinvention yeah i think so i think it was really it really was what I hoped that it would be, that it was a chance to start from scratch and reinvent myself. I even, you know, I bought clothes, especially for the trip. And I suppose the capacity for reinvention is a very useful thing for an actor. And so maybe it cemented that. Maybe, yes, yeah. I mean, I don't remember not wanting to be an actor. How interesting. I always, always wanted to be an actor. And we're using the word actor very consciously here because you hate the word actress, don't you?

Well, I feel like we don't need it. That S on the end of things like poetess or Dr. S as a signal of female, you know, I just feel like we don't need that. I'm really bothered by when there's a thing, it's male. And if a woman is going to do it, you have to change the word. Even basketball, you know, when women play it, it's women's basketball, but playing basketball is men playing you know just all those things bug me it's othering yes yeah othering yeah I know it's probably really annoying but will you say something in Swedish would you just say I'm

thrilled to be on this podcast talking about failure in Swedish if you can or anything I wouldn't know you could tell me anything in Swedish I wouldn't understand I like to talk to you it's very nice I love it

it just sounds so good I know the way people said my name in Sweden was Jina Jina so I like being Jina and you couldn't just say yee-nah. That wouldn't sound the same. No, no.

Because they have that little did when they speak. Wow. So cool. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time.

I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix.

The host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure.

Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to

you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Talking of acting, that brings us on to your second failure, which is not being a top model. Yes. So you, Gina Davis, had a very clear plan of how you were going to become an actor. Yes.

What was it? Yes. So this came to me when I was in college studying acting. And all my friends wanted to be in play, you know, theater. We were theater majors. And I knew that I wanted to be in films instead. And nobody told me, you know, maybe you should move to LA once you graduate. You know, I just had no clue what I was supposed to do to get jobs in movies. So at the time,

Christie Brinkley and Lauren Hutton also were getting roles in movies. And I thought, okay, so that means if I become a famous model, they'll just give me parts in movies. They'll just throw parts my way. So I'll just become a famous model because it's like so much easier to become a supermodel than an actor, I guess. So that was my goal. Yes, that I couldn't just be a model. I needed to be a very famous model in order for people to notice me and want to put me in movies. So by this stage in your life, are you feeling friends with your physical appearance? Have you now realized that you are beautiful? But obviously, I still thought that I could potentially be a famous model because I don't know that I could trick people into thinking I was beautiful or something. I mean, I knew I was tall enough. But then even when I started modeling and I did a lot of bathing suits and underwear shoots and things like that, and I thought, it didn't make me think, wow, people are paying me a lot

of money because they like how my body looks. I thought, okay, so I know how to trick people into thinking I have a good body because I know how to stand or hide my flaws or something. So it was weird. It was strange, you know, that I had this idea that I could be a very successful model while still thinking that I wasn't attractive. But you also seem like an extremely hard worker. Yes. Yeah. And so maybe it's a combination of, I know I can work really hard at this. Right.

And I'm really good at tricking people because actually I'm a huge fraud. I'm a massive imposter. Right. But no one else has realized yet. So I must be doing a good job at tricking. Exactly. Exactly. Has that sense of imposter syndrome ever left you? It impacted so much of my life, but I think it has left me, although I have to say, doing press for the book and people say lovely things about it, it's always like, oh gosh, you know, it's

uncomfortable a little bit. Like, really? You're, you know. So do you feel uncomfortable with compliments or it's just that you don't believe them? I mean it's just that I maybe think they're going too far or or something you know it's uncomfortable to admit that I am actually good at things although I think I am I think I I know I know that I am but it's uh but you admit it in such a beautiful way that it doesn't in any way sound arrogant I mean you're so far the opposite end of the spectrum from arrogance that you could do with just 5% of like male entitlement. Right, right. And you would still be utterly delightful. So don't worry about it.

Yes, yes, okay. It sounds really good to me when you say, I think I am actually pretty good at writing. Also, did you illustrate this book? Are they your illustrations? Yes, they are. So you're basically a gifted cartoonist as well. I actually have a children's book that will be coming out next year. That you've illustrated?

That I will have drawn the pictures to. That's amazing, Gina. Okay, wait, so I've got distracted. So you were modelling. Yes. And just tell us quickly the Anne Taylor story, because it's so batshit, excuse my language, but it's also so brilliant.

Right, right. Well, when I first moved to New York, the first day I went out and got a job as a sales girl at Ann Taylor, I needed something to support myself. And I loved it. I thought Ann Taylor was like really the height of fashion or something. So I would very carefully dress makeup and hair and wear Ann Taylor clothes. And one day I noticed that the front window, there were mannequins sitting at a sort of a cafe table and they had plastic food in front of them as if they were having lunch. And there was an empty

chair in the middle. And I was peeking in the window, and I said to one of my girlfriends, dare me to go in the window. And she's like, yeah, yeah, go. So I went and sat in the chair in the window, and I'm like, what am I going to do now? And there were a couple people who happened to be looking in the window and saw me get in there, and they start watching me. And so I decided I was going to freeze like a mannequin

and pretend to be a mannequin. And so I did, and then they're just waiting. They're like, what's this? What's she going to do? And then other people started coming up and saying, I could hear through the window saying, what are you guys looking at? Because I guess I really looked like a mannequin. They said, well, just wait.

Just wait. And then they waited. And more and more people said, what are you guys looking at? It's just a window with mannequins. And then finally, when I moved, everyone was like, everyone was like, wow. And then I froze again. And anyway, the manager came over and saw what I was doing. And she was like, Gina, get out of the window. And then she saw the big crowd and she said, well, actually stay in the window. And then they started hiring me to be a mannequin in the window. And you took it to these extraordinary lengths where you had

ties around your wrist to make it look like you were a plastic mannequin. Like they were attached. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I got a wig that looked just like the wigs that the mannequins had on Aunt Taylor. And I could hear everything people said, like I said, and I heard somebody say, it's not a mechanical mannequin. It has hair on its arms. And so, okay. And then I didn't have hair on my arms anymore. And then somebody said, it can't be a machine because it's not plugged in. And so then next day I had a little tiny wire, very subtly drifting off. And then somebody'd say, oh, it's plugged in. It is a robot mannequin. And so, yeah. Is there something that you love about being in a situation

where you're in on the secret and you're in a position where you can observe people? Yes. It was fascinating. It was so fun. I could wrangle the crowd. You know, I could figure out when I should move. You know, I'd wait until it seems like people are going to start drifting away

and then I'd do some move and then they're captivated again. It was great. It was really great. Sometimes they would try to throw me off. You know, they'd try to say things or do things that would distract me, but, you know. Do you think you're shy? I have been terribly shy, and I could still become shy, for sure, but not as much anymore. I mean, I was crippling terribly shy, and I could still become shy for sure, but not as much anymore. I mean, I was cripplingly shy in the beginning. Like, when I first started dating, it was sort of a nightmare because I didn't want to voice any opinions. Like, they'd say, where should we have dinner or whatever? Oh, I don't know, wherever you want.

What do you want to eat? Oh, you know, whatever. I don't care and it kind of drove guys crazy sometimes like can you ever just say what you want no ultimately you're trying to please them by doing that I've done that in the past as well right right like I can't even pick what salad I want because he might not like the kind of lettuce. You know, it's like so insane to try to please someone in that way. I am going to come back to this failure in just a second. But because we're talking about dating, you've been married four times.

I'm a huge believer that a relationship is not a failure because it ends. And all failure is date acquisition. And I just wonder what those relationships have taught you, if you could sum it up. Right. Well, I don't know. Such a hard question. Right. But I totally agree with you. And I have excellent relationships with some of my exes because parts of it were very successful. And so it can retain those parts ultimately somehow for whatever reason. It didn't work out in the long run, but I have very, very fond memories of a lot of my relationships. So your failure as a top model led to you being an actor.

Tell us how that happened. Yes. So I did work here and there as an actor. When they were casting Tootsie, the casting director called model agencies and said, if you have any models that can also act, let me know. And they were like, we have one. We've studied acting and everything. And so I got to audition for it. And I was told to wear a bathing suit under my clothes because if I read well, they would want to see what my body looks like. The role entailed the character being in her

underwear a couple of times. Dustin Hoffman, Dustin Hobbs pretending to be a woman. And he comes in a room with a half naked woman and he has to not react, you know what I mean? Yeah, because I'm sure that happened a lot in auditions around that time that you had to show. But actually with Tootsie, it was a slightly different element. It wasn't just that you were being sexually harassed. No, no, no. It was it had an actual legitimate purpose. So anyway, so I go to

the audition and it's just a casting assistant with a video recorder. She doesn't say, can I see you in a bathing suit? And so I think, well, obviously the first audition I ever have, I'm not going to get cast in a movie with Dustin Hoffman and Sidney Pollack, the director. So I forgot all about it. And I went for the first time to Paris to do the runway collections. I hadn't really ever done runway stuff before. And I was very excited. And while I was gone, Sidney Pollack looked at the audition tapes and said, I really like this girl. Where's her bathing suit shot? And she said, oh, well, we forgot to ask her. Well, get her back. Oh, no, it turns out she can't. She's in France.

Well, do they have any photos of her in a bathing suit? And thankfully, I had been in a Victoria's Secret catalogue. So they just sent that over. And I'm not saying they went, well, let's get her. But it helped me get the part. And Tootsie, which, I mean, it sounds like I'm making this up, is another one of my favourite films of all time. I re-watched it recently.

Yes, it really holds up, doesn't it? It really holds up and it's always such a relief when you go back to favourite films from like the 80s and 90s and they hold up. Right, right. Oh, it's just, I think that what I love about it, obviously the performances are exceptional. I love Sidney Pollack, the

director's cameo, like his part in it. But it's so warm hearted as a movie. And it sounds as though it was like that on set as well. It really was. It really was. It was incredible. I didn't know what it would be like to be on set. And I was a little worried about it before I got there. what it would be like to be on set. And I was a little worried about it before I got there. I thought there might be some special movie acting that I hadn't learned as a theater major and that they would expect me to know how to movie act. So I was a little trepidatious in the beginning,

but I got there and we shot my first scene and both Dustin and Sidney Pollack were incredibly respectful and welcoming, treated me like instantly like a peer. It was nothing like, well, she's just a model we got. It was like very, very supportive and welcoming. So the whole thing was like that. It was the most incredible introduction to a career in Hollywood that you could ever ask. And Dustin Hoffman gave you very good advice for

dealing with amorous co-stars, didn't he? He did. He gave me lots of good advice. All day long, he was thinking of things. He was like he wanted to prepare me for this career that he seemed sure that I would have. So one of the, yes, one of the pieces of advice was never sleep with your co-stars because, you know, it'll complicate things it's just not good so don't do it but here's what you say which was yay okay tell me what I say and it was I would love to you're very attractive but I don't want to ruin the sexual tension between us so good and so I squirrel that away all right if I ever I ever need that, I'm going to remember. And then I did need it only a few months later.

With Jack Nicholson. With Jack Nicholson, yes. My agent had taken me and a couple other models who wanted to be actors to L.A. to meet casting directors, whatever. And he happened to know Jack Nicholson. So for this entire week, we had dinner with Jack Nicholson every night, just like the models, the agent, and Jack Nicholson. And about midweek, I came home from appointments and there was a message, Gina, please call Jack Nicholson. I'm like, oh, my God.

I showed it to my roommate and stuff. And I'm like, oh, Jack Nicholson wants me to call him. So I call and say, hello, Jack. This is Gina, the model. You called me. And he says, yeah, hey, Gina, when's it going to happen? And I'm like, why didn't I realize what this was going to be about? You know, it's not going to be, will you star with me in a movie? It's going to be, let's get together. But I said, I thought, I know exactly what to say for once in my life.

I said, well, Mr. Nicholson, Jack, I would love to. It's very tempting, but I have a feeling we're going to work together in the future, and I would hate to have ruined the sexual tension between us. Oh, my. I mean, how elegant. And he said? And he said, oh, man, where did you get that? Oh. I mean, how elegant. And he said. And he said, oh, man, where did you get that?

Oh, he immediately assumed somebody had told me, you know, taught me to say that. But it worked. I mean, thank you, Dustin Hoffman. Exactly. For saving lovely, innocent Gina. Exactly. Exactly. Little did he know that I would need it so soon. There's also a great bit which isn't directly related, but about Warren Beatty.

Yes. Tell us just quickly about that. So I was at a party that Warren Beatty was at. And in fact, I had just split with Jeff Goldblum, my second husband. Who I never wanted you to split with because the two of you just look like you fit together. We were such a great couple, I have to say. We really were. I miss it. I miss it.

I miss it a lot. It had been public, so he knew about that. He said, hey, I was sorry to hear that you and Jeff split. You guys were such a great couple. In fact, I don't know if you remember, I was on an elevator once with you two. I said, oh no, I don't remember. He says, yeah, I was looking at you guys. I thought they are such a great couple that I'm not even going to fuck her. I thought they are such a great couple that I'm not even going to fuck her. As if it's his prerogative. Yeah, as if obviously he would have done otherwise. Well, and that he can't.

He can't, you know. He could just fuck anybody he wants. Yeah. But you know what? I'm going to be so gracious that I'll leave this alone. It's just so funny that he then told you that as well. Yes. This is a compliment though. It was a total compliment. I just leave this alone. It's just, it's so funny that he then told you that as well. Like, this is a compliment though. It was a total compliment. I just loved you guys.

I decided I wouldn't destroy it, you know, by... Oh, Gina, we're laughing about this, but I suppose there is a sort of underlying sense that it was a tough time for a woman navigating the movie industry right through the 80s, 90s, early 2000s. How did you feel when the Me Too movement started in 2017? It was extraordinary.

I mean, obviously it came about for horrific reasons, but at least things became known. Women started being believed. The Cosby thing happened first, and I remember that it had gotten up to 50 women saying that he had assaulted them. And still people were saying, well, you know, we're not sure we can believe it. It's like, how many of us have, you know, does it take to be believed? And so, you know, it really became Me Too with the Harvey Weinstein of it all.

But I was thrilled. I was absolutely thrilled that it came out and that we could talk about it and finally be believed and make change. When other women would come forward and now it was okay to bring it up. So other people got busted, were discovered to be serial abusers. And it really changed things in Hollywood. I mean, not as much as we could wish. I'm sure things still go on in secret and there's still women that might not want to come forward and say what happened to them, but it's very, very different. And part of it is that it is okay now, if you feel strong enough, to say what happened to you.

Because I think when I was in the early years and my peers, I think we all felt like you can't complain about anything. They'll just get somebody else. Your job is to be no trouble, pleasant, nice to work with, and never, never, never complain about anything. Whether it was salary or sexual know sexual assault you couldn't talk about it but me too changed that that it suddenly was okay because then you saw women coming out and saying me too we do this happened to me too and then it became okay to talk about your salary also which people had never felt comfortable women had never felt comfortable, women had never felt comfortable talking about. But if you found out your co-star was making 10 times what you were making, it suddenly became

okay to say that in an interview and say, I deserve equal money. And I mean, this was just extraordinary. It's such an interesting point you make about how you felt, as I did, that it was the price of admission, that you were lucky just even to be allowed onto the playing field and anything that you had to put up with was just something you had to deal with because how lucky were we that we were allowed to have this job when our grandmothers wouldn't have had it right but me too and I know I don't work in the same industry as you but me too for me helped me recategorize incidents in my past. And I wonder if it did that for you.

Because suddenly I was like, oh, that was harassment. Absolutely. It did. It definitely did. It helped me to recategorize things for sure. Were there specific incidents? Well, I had an audition for a movie quite early on. It was very early in my career.

And the director acted incredibly inappropriately in this audition because he asked me to act out the scene, which was kind of a sexy scene, with him. And it involved sitting on a man's lap. And at first I thought he had to be kidding, you know, that, really? No, no, I mean, that isn't how auditions go. You read with somebody else. And he said, no, no, but sit here.

And I was like, I don't want to do this, but I did, you know, and hating every second of it. But after Me Too, I realized that helped me really recategorize that as assault, really. And not being your fault that you wentize that as assault really and not being your fault yeah you went along and not being my fault yeah yeah thank you Gina so I mean then you got that part in Tootsie yeah your movie career is stellar and then we come to your third failure and I'm so glad that you have chosen this one which which is your ADD diagnosis. Right, right. Because it came when you were 41, is that right? Yes, yes, exactly.

So I had felt forever that there was something wrong with me that was a huge secret and had to be hidden. And I thought I had a sort of personality flaw or character flaw because from when I was a kid, I noticed that I couldn't finish a lot of things or I couldn't start things. I got straight A's up until junior high school because there was no homework per se that would have tripped me up. But once we started having assignments where you had to take several nights to write a paper or you had to study for several days for a test or something, I was like lost. And I didn't want anybody to know this about me, you know, that I wasn't able to do that.

It was torture. It was just torture. Because I also felt like I must get all A's, which I've been doing. And so it was really hard to get through high school. I mean, I managed to mostly still get A's, but it was just so torturous. And, you know, and there were other things I just couldn't complete or I couldn't start. And I carried forward into my adult life. And what about learning lines? I managed to pick a career and fortunately be able to get work in a career that absolutely puts a gun to your head because on that day when they're going to shoot this thing and

hundreds of people are there and they're spending you know hundreds of thousands of dollars a day you have to perform you know this is your one chance to get it right and so I would learn the lines but often the night before, but I would learn the lines and I would be absolutely ready when the time came. But if I'd had a more measured job, where you're just kind of doing your work every day and I need to be steady, I would have had a terrible time. And forgive my ignorance, does ADD or ADHD have an impact on your personal relationships? Is there also an element of, I can't sustain this? It did. It really did. Not, I can't sustain this relationship, but as far as their image of me, their approval of me, like eventually they would realize that

she didn't do the thing I asked her to, or she didn't, you know, and look at our house is a mess and things like that. And I remember one relationship, the thing I asked her to or she didn't, you know, look at our house as a mess and things like that. And I remember one relationship, the man said he wanted to break up because I never bought chairs for the dining room table. And I thought, what? But to him, he saw the way I was as a serious character flaw, that I just can't seem to finish things or focus on whatever it was he wanted me to focus on. Wow. I'm sorry that happened. So how did you get your diagnosis? I started with a therapist at 41. And maybe by the second time I saw her, she said,

has anyone ever told you that you have ADD? And I said, oh, no, no, no, I can't because I'm so not hyperactive. And back then we still did call it ADD instead of ADHD. I said, I'm profoundly not hyperactive. She said, but you can have it without being hyperactive. I said, really? So she said, well, just go see this person and get tested. And I turned out, the results showed that I had a very serious case of ADD. And it was magic. It was so unbelievable to find that out, that there was a reason, you know,

that for 41 years, I've been going through this sort of self-torture about not being able to do things that I wanted to, you know, that I desperately wanted to do, but I just couldn't. I had an earlier therapist who, I would talk about this all the time, you know, I want to write a book, I want to learn how to play the violin, I want to, you know, all these things, but I can't seem to do it. And she would say, well, maybe you're just that kind of person who, you know, just doesn't do things. I mean, she said, Winston Churchill did a lot of work in bed. And maybe you're kind of that. He's also a functioning alcoholic. Right. Maybe you don't need to do all those things you keep saying you want to do. And I was like,

I do. I really want to do them. Wow. Yeah. So it made sense of a lot of things. Yes. And then did it enable you to use it as a power rather than a weakness? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yes. It really changed everything. It was such a relief to know that, wait a minute, I could stop blaming myself and abusing myself for having this giant flaw that I really don't want anybody to know about. And the other side of ADD is that you can also have attention surplus disorder. You know, my therapist described it as being like a lion and they lay around 90% of the day and then, oh, what's that? And then they're 100% focused. So that's kind of what it's like. So the archery, this stems from the same sort of time in your life.

Exactly the same time. So do you think your diagnosis of ADD sort of fed into the fact that you were absolutely able to focus on becoming an Olympic level archer? Well, yes, yes. I started feeling completely differently about myself. And I'd had this idea that I wanted to take up a sport in real life and not just a movie version of a sport and had picked archery. Partly, I also started learning coping skills. I really wanted to become as good as I possibly could get at archery, which means lots of practice. But I knew it was going to be hard to get to the practice field every day.

So sometimes I would have him meet me. I would make an appointment at 10 o'clock, please meet me there. And I would have to not let him keep waiting. But once I started and he got me started, he could leave and I'd spend five hours there, you know? Yeah. And one of the things that you wrote you loved about archery is that there's nothing subjective about it. Tell us about that. Yes. It was amazing to realize what it was about it that really meant so much to me, which was you can measure it. It's points. It doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter people's opinion. It's nothing like, you know, ice skating or something where there's judges. You hit the target or you don't, and you

add up the points and you know exactly how you did. And it was so different from my day job, which is utterly subjective. So I love that about it. I've just got a few more questions for you, I promise. And then I'll let you go. If anyone is listening to this and they have just had a diagnosis of ADHD or ADD and they're feeling really low about it, what would you say to them? You know, it's actually kind of fabulous to have ADHD. People tend to be incredibly creative. And if you can develop coping skills, there's all kind of articles about how to develop coping skills to counteract the effect of not being able to start things or finish things.

It actually can be a real advantage. You see the world through very colorful eyes, and so it can be great. It's kind of fabulous. I love that. So I wanted to ask you before we draw to a close about age, but specifically the fact that the Gina Davis story as told in multiple interviews is you had this extraordinary career and then you hit 40 and the roles seemed to dry up and you were interested in why that was happening and you launched the Gina Davis Institute as a result of that and then you started getting roles again and now you sit before us the fabulous woman that you are

but my reading of it is that I feel you really discovered yourself in your 40s you had this diagnosis you became an olympic level archer you were doing all of that and actually it sounds such an empowering decade in many ways and one of the things I know that happened in your 40s is that you became a mother yes my personal story is that I'm not a mother yet and I'm in my 40s and it's been a long old journey, but I'm determined to get there. And I suppose what I'm asking from you is what it's like being a parent in your 40s and whether that came with lots of benefits because you were slightly older. Yes, it did. And in fact, I'd always knew I wanted kids at some point. I waited

very long, but I knew that the older I was, the better it might be because I felt like I had low self-esteem and I didn't want my kids to have low self-esteem. So I felt like the older I got, the more confident I would get, more evolved I would get, and then I would be better positioned to be a great role model to them. So that was my thinking that it's going to be a, it's going to be advantage. I want to them. So that was my thinking, that it's going to be an advantage. I want to say the impression of me that you were talking about, I did not start the Institute because I had a lack of jobs at all. It was specifically about the lack of female characters in kids' entertainment.

When I started showing preschool shows that I thought were educational or whatever to my daughter, I immediately noticed that there were far more male characters than female characters in the 21st century. And what are we doing? We're showing kids that girls are profoundly less important than boys, and we're showing boys that boys are more important. So we have to change this immediately. And you have one daughter and two twin sons. Yes. So if they were sitting here today, how do you think they would describe you as a mother?

Well, I don't know. I know they love me. Yeah, we have a great relationship. But I made a point of being their media literacy coach. So I would watch everything with them. And I was able to say, why do you think there's no girls in that scene? Do you think girls could do what those boys are doing? And so they're very savvy now as other adults. Well, I'm sure they're incredibly grateful to you, but we're incredibly grateful to you for shaping the culture as an actor, as a campaigner, as the phenomenal woman that you are.

I cannot thank you enough for giving me your time and your warmth today. Gina Davis, thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you. It was so much fun. Thank you. for coming on How To Fail. Thank you. It was so much fun. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of How To Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.