How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, Ep12 How To Fail: Justin Basini, the Clearscore CEO on business failure, body image and friendship

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

TW: discussion around suicide, body dysmorphia and disordered eating.For my season finale, I wanted to do something a little different. I wanted to interview one of the most amazing people I know. Conveniently, that person is also my husband, Justin Basini, so it was pretty easy to co-ordinate diaries. As well as being my husband (arguably his most important qualification) Justin is also a highly successful entrepreneur and CEO. In 2015, he founded Clearscore, an app which provides free credit scores and reports, along with advice to help consumers make better financial decisions. It has now grown to over 18 million users, 460 employees and several international offices and is one the UK's leading fintech companies.Justin joins me to talk about his first major business failure leading to a serious breakdown in his mental health and how he got through that. We also talk about his self-perceived failures in friendship. And in one of the most honest and eye-opening chats we have ever had, we discuss his negative body image - not a thing that you often hear men discussing, and I'm so grateful to Justin for being so honest as I know it will help countless people.Along the way, we talk about how we met (thanks, Hinge), how I massively embarrassed myself on our first meeting, the joy of second marriages and the Justin Basini Funnel Theory on Dating (TM).I hope you enjoy listening to this one. It was a very special episode to me personally but I truly believe it's a very special episode full stop.--You can learn more about Clearscore here: https://www.clearscore.com/--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Justin Basini @justinbasini (he only has Twitter and LinkedIn like a SERIOUS BUSINESSMAN) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest today is a serial entrepreneur and CEO. He co-founded the credit management app ClearScore in 2015 with the mission to help users take control of their financial health. It has now grown to over 18 million users, 460 employees and several international offices.

He was born and raised in South London, got a first in biochemistry from Bristol University and after a year spent teaching children in rural KwaZulu-Natal, he worked for Procter & Gamble, Deutsche Bank and Capital One. Along the way, he set up his first two businesses and wrote his first and as yet only book, Why Should Anyone Buy From You?, which examines the importance of trust in business. If the founding of ClearScore changed his professional life, it was another app which changed his personal life. In March 2018, he matched with a 39-year-old woman on Hinge. Three years later, they got married in the midst

of a global pandemic. Four years on, and that woman is sitting opposite him in their home, reading out this introduction as he squirms with embarrassment in front of her. Yes, dear listener, that woman is in fact me, because today's very special finale guest on How to Fail is none other than my husband, Justin Bassini. Asked last year by a journalist what piece of advice he'd give someone joining his industry, he replied, one of the biggest drivers of success perhaps paradoxically is being comfortable with failure most of us fail at some point and it's okay if you do if you've learned something and worked with some great people it's still incredibly valuable the key thing is to make sure you know what you're learning and enjoy the journey Justin Bassini welcome to how to fail thank you Elizabeth

very nice to be here. That quote, when I came across it, I was so impressed. It was almost as though I'd had an effect on you. Yes, you will. You have had an effect in many ways. The outcome of entrepreneurship is always incredibly, incredibly risky. You know, the chances are you're going to fail. And so you might as well enjoy the journey along the way. risky, you know, the chances are you're going to fail. And so you might as well enjoy the journey along the way. Well, I'm asked all the time to have CEOs on this podcast. And I'm very proud that I can sort of get two birds with one stone and ask both CEO and husband. So thank you for agreeing to do this, because I know it's slightly unnatural. We're sitting around our dining table

being recorded when normally we wouldn't have microphones in our house but I'm intrigued as to why listeners ask me to have CEOs on here do you think that there's a particular experience of failure in business that is instructive and do you separate it from your personal life the first thing to say is that entrepreneurship is the lifeblood of the economy. And so entrepreneurs need to be celebrated and need to be supported because most, in fact, all of the growth in the economy comes from entrepreneurs setting things up, whether that's big companies that were set up hundreds of years ago or whether it was your corner shop that was set up a few years ago, right? And the reality is that the chances of having a long standing business is extremely low. So it's something like one in 1000 businesses will see their first year. And then one in 1000 of those will see their second year. And then one in 1000 of those will see their third year. And so actually creating a business which lasts any length of time is a huge achievement. Entrepreneurs know that when they go into it, we're all, I think entrepreneurs generally are optimistic people because otherwise you wouldn't do it.

But you hope for success, but the chances are, you know, that you might fail. And it's being able to put all of those worries and fears at the back of your mind and being able to still go forward and have confidence that you can create something. That's the skill of the entrepreneur. Now, we'll talk about it a bit later. But the fact that lots of entrepreneurs do fail, it is very hard often to separate that from who you are and the other spheres of your life, because most entrepreneurs are, you know, very involved with work, it's their passion, it's central to their being. And so when businesses do fail, it can be very difficult. You're right that we will go on to talk about that because it informs one of your failures but I had a really interesting conversation with you a couple

of weeks ago about anxiety and you made the point that the work that you do means that you live alongside anxiety every single day of your life and that you've almost had to learn how to befriend it in a positive way and to understand that, say, 10% of anxiety is just going to be part of your life. That's the decision you've made. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Because I think so often in today's society, we're taught that anxiety is a difficult thing to handle, and that we must seek to cure it. But actually, what you taught me was really helpful. It was like, actually, you're never going to eliminate it entirely if you want to live a certain kind of life. Yeah, I think anxiety is the price that you pay

for responsibility. And so if you choose to take on responsibilities in whatever form, So if you choose to take on responsibilities in whatever form, whether that's having a family or setting a business up or, you know, getting married or being captain of a football team or whatever, right? All of those things are responsibilities and they bring an anxiety because generally you care deeply about those activities. And so you're going to worry about them. And actually worrying about them is in a strange way a privilege, because you've got into that position. So the fact that I'm anxious, most of the time at a low level about the 500 people who work for me, and the 18 million consumers whose finances we try and support, you know, that's an incredible privilege, but it comes with a lot of worry and a lot of anxiousness. And if you really want to take on more and more responsibility, you have to be able to handle that.

We're going to get onto a more personal side of things in a minute. But I wanted to ask you about something that I discovered when I was researching my book, How to Fail, which is that there are certain venture capitalists in Silicon Valley, who will only consider investing their money, if the entrepreneur in front of them has already failed at least twice. And it didn't escape my attention that ClearScore is your third business, and it is incredibly incredibly successful but you had two that failed or didn't turn out exactly how you wanted them to on the way do you think that there's something in that that actually we can apply those entrepreneurial lessons to life it's definitely true that every almost all overnight successes have been 10 20 20, 30 years in the making.

And that making is a lot about trying and learning and failing. And the issue with, I think, everything in life, entrepreneurship is the same. It's magnified by social media, is that we celebrate the freaks. And the freaks are Facebook and Google and all of these companies where very young people set something up and it becomes huge. You mean freaks as in freak occurrences? Freak occurrences. Yeah. These are the outliers. That is not normal. Right. Normal is trying and failing and keeping going and going bankrupt and learning and all of those things. And that actually exponentially increases your chances of becoming successful. So when venture capitalists or whoever say, I need people who are seasoned, I need people

who've had those failures, right? They are essentially reducing the risk because they are buying into 5, 10, 20 years of experience, which means that you're much more likely to make the right decisions. And that's the same in life. You know, all of us go on that journey. And for those of us like you and me on second marriages, for example, you know, ironically, our marriage benefits from the fact that we've had those experiences, right? And we've made those mistakes and we've had those learnings. And we can bring all of that into the relationship that we've got so that it's successful. I interviewed the Olympic diver Tom Daley for this season of How to Fail. And he said this brilliant thing about knitting, which applies to exactly this,

which is that when a piece of knitting goes wrong, and you have to unravel it all and start again, you don't start again from scratch, you start again from experience. And I think that's exactly the same with what you've been saying with entrepreneurship, and also with relationships, talking of which, our dating history. So for anyone who doesn't know the story, we did meet on Hinge. And no, I have never been sponsored by Hinge to talk so glowingly positively about them. But I will do because at the stage that you and I met, I was really disheartened months and my experience of apps was that there would be a lot of quote-unquote banter leading up to maybe an eventual meeting which was quite a rare occurrence at which point I would walk into a bar and feel a complete lack of chemistry with a person that I met who had put all of the most flattering photos of themselves online and didn't actually look like

that in real life. My experience with Justin was totally different. But at that stage, I literally had lost all hope and I had bought tickets to fly and move full time to LA on that very Thursday morning that then that evening, I walked into a bar and met Justin. And Justin's dating app profile was exceptional in the sense that I now know that the photos he chose of himself unwittingly, he wouldn't have been aware of this, were not the most flattering. And I thought, you know, he's a fairly nice looking man, but probably not really my type, but he seems quite nice. And he kept messaging me, which as anyone who is currently dating will know is not

a given. And he messaged me day after day me day after day and I thought who is this weirdo who just keeps being in touch I'm so used to emotional fuckwits I was like what a strange man wanting to be in touch with me and so eventually I sort of got ground down and Justin sent me a text saying Elizabeth I'm traveling a lot over the next few weeks these are your options we can either meet for coffee in the morning which is very low risk because you might hate me, or we can meet for lunch, higher risk, but you get a free meal, or we can compromise and meet for an evening cocktail. And I thought I liked- For an hour. Well, no, that was my choice. So then I liked the confidence of that tone. Then I replied saying,

I'd love to meet for a cocktail from 5 to 7 p.m. is actually what I said. I gave you two hours on this Thursday. So when I walked into this bar, it's the Dandelion Bar on the South Bank, no longer exists, sadly. I had such low expectations. And as we know from Mo Gowda on how to fail, low expectations or managed expectations is actually the key to happiness. I walked into that bar, my expectations were on the floor, and soon so would I be. And I walked in and I saw this incredibly handsome man and I was like,

oh my goodness, that's Justin Bassini. And I felt so heart flutteringly nervous and I was so not anticipating it that I sat down and it had been raining outside and I had an umbrella and a big raincoat and a bag. And as I was sort of disrobing myself, I noticed that my chair, which was one of those very kind of modern fashionable chrome designs with a narrow base, had started to wobble. And I thought, it's fine, it will right itself. And as I took my coat off, the chair fatally wobbled to one side and I went flying across the floor, this massive open plan bar. Everyone saw it. I was wearing a short skirt. It was flat out the most embarrassing moment of my life.

I'd literally just said hello to this handsome man. And Justin got up immediately, rushed around and kept saying, oh my goodness, oh my goodness, helped me up. I went back onto the chair. I thought there's only one way that this can continue. I'm going to have to pretend it didn't happen and style it out. So I never mentioned it and neither did you. And for that, I thought there's only one way that this can continue. I'm going to have to pretend it didn't happen and style it out.

So I never mentioned it and neither did you. And for that, I'm forever grateful. Until about an hour in, I got up to go to the loo and Justin said, don't fall over. And I was like, I think he's a keeper. Anyway, that's the story of our meeting. So I literally fell at your feet. And one of the things that I really, really appreciated about you from very, very early days was the clarity and straightforwardness of your communication,

that you said what you felt and you left me in no doubt that I had my own agency in our relationship, which again, wasn't something I was used to. How much of that do you think you had learned because of the failed dates that do you think you had learned because of the failed dates and the failed relationships you had been in up to that point? When I divorced and through that process, you know, I reflected a lot during that time. And as you and I both espouse, went into therapy and spent a few years in therapy and that's always a very good thing and it allowed me to reflect on what really do you need to bring to a relationship and I and you and I have talked about this you know I believe that relationships now are journeys where you walk in parallel with somebody and hopefully you stay in sync and on the same path

for ever right but there are times in a marriage where you start to drift apart and some couples manage to come back onto that path other couples go onto different paths and that's actually fine right and the more that we realize that's fine, I think that would be a good thing. But the critical thing is if you're defining your own path, you need to know your own mind. You need to know where you're going and you need to know what,

you need to be confident in that and you need to represent that. And the other person needs to respond to that. And clearly there's compromise and there's discussion and whatever. But if the two of you are independently walking and choosing to walk every day together in lockstep, that is a good relationship for me. And I think I learned that through that process of, you know, reclaiming myself in a way. And I know you went on that same journey. You know, I think when you have things that happen in your, at any time in your life, but especially in your midlife, divorce, my father died, you do go on a process of really

reconnecting with who you are as an individual. And that's actually a massive privilege. You know, the opportunity to reconnect with that is massively beneficial, I think, for everybody's life. And it certainly was for mine. I realize I've never asked you this question before, probably because I'm afraid of the answer, but I've never asked you what you might have found difficult about me in the early days of our dating. Because I know that I

found one of the things tricky about you was that we had a different communication practice where you felt text was cheap whereas I always much prefer texting to phone calls now that's shifted but we had to have a series of conversations about that and about how I needed regular contact but what did you find difficult about me well there was that there was that thing you know how to communicate and how to communicate effectively I didn't find anything particularly difficult I think as you know I'm a great believer in pacing and doing things at the right time in a relationship and being emotional with that, but also responsible and taking time to think about things. And, you know, when you say different things in a relationship,

making sure that they really matter. And I think at our age, that's really, really important. It's not necessarily important at every age right you know I think when you're younger having mad love affairs where you fall in love with somebody in 24 hours and all of that that's a that's you know fantastic thing but I think when you're talking about serious relationships and I knew pretty early that you know I thought that there could be something between us and therefore it was very important to me to treat that very seriously and not make mistakes. So I worried that that pacing, and we talked about it a bit, was holding things back. And it did.

You felt unsure at various times because I was sort of making sure of my feelings and what I wanted to communicate in a very choiceful way which maybe could come across as a bit cold or rational or too sort of reserved or something and I know you felt a little bit and I knew that you were feeling a little bit that but I wasn't prepared to compromise on that because I didn't think it was right. Yes. And I now, looking back, I'm very grateful that you laid such a solid foundation. And also, you have three children. So that takes a huge amount of responsibility in and of itself, who you're going to let into their lives. And you're right that I did find it sometimes confusing to know what you felt for me, even though I knew your actions were always conveying something. But for anyone out there who is with someone who they believe to be decent, who they really, really like, and they're not sure potentially what this person feels about them, but they are doing decent things and their actions are showing that they're of good character.

It took us six months to say that we loved each other, to each other. And in the past, before having met you, I might have felt wrongly that passionate romance was all about meeting someone, as you say, like 24 hours, deciding to run away to Rio

and the rest of your life is fireworks. But actually, I now realise that for me, true love is about feeling safe. And I feel safe because of that pacing, because we laid the groundwork, we laid the kindling for a slow, lifelong burning bonfire, just to really extend the metaphor. Yeah, I think that's right. If you think about our relationship being over decades, six months to fall in love with each other seems entirely appropriate to me I don't think we should misrepresent it I mean there was

a lot of passion there as well yes right you know we we we definitely were well into each other and are well into each other yeah so that passion is there it's just you know there's stages of it yeah and I had placed too much value in the past on the verbalization because of everything that I do and who I am that's an occupational hazard and actually it just taught me so much and it wasn't that we weren't in love with each other it's just that that's when we chose to say it and I always remember you said it and then you said and that's a commitment there when I say that before we get onto your failures I want you to share with the listeners the funnel theory of dating because you had a very different experience of online dating from mine which because you are blessed with being a cis man

you get to have because I believe that that experience is more positive but you have this funnel theory and I think it will be very helpful for people to listen to well the if I do another book it will be called something like life is a funnel we need to work on that title because and you have talked about the same concept when you talk about failure is data acquisition that is essentially another way of putting life as a funnel, right? So in e-commerce entrepreneurship, you think a lot about funnels. So what that is, is you start with a lot of people at the top, you know, visiting your website, and then you say, okay, how many people are going to sign up? So maybe half the people will sign up. And then how many people will actually download the app? That's another half. And so you're going down in halves, right? And what you're doing is you're building relationship with those users as you go through.

And that's quite a common concept in business, especially internet-based businesses, but it can be applied to life, right? The dating that I did, and I did quite a lot of dating after I got- Top of the funnel. After I got divorced, it's a top of the funnel problem, right? And so what you're doing is you're acquiring data, right? You're trying to experiment and have conversations with lots and lots of people. So hopefully once you've gone through that, you find the diamond and it worked in our case.

I did find a diamond and I was very blessed for that. But also that process is a very important process because you learn a lot right and you learn about you know what is working for you and what isn't working and what works for other people and that process is very valuable in life in the early stages of careers i always say to younger people you know you should be moving jobs like every two years if you can that doesn't mean you need to leave your company but you should go and find another thing to do or get that promotion because that really accelerates your rate of learning. And so the more that you can accelerate that rate of learning,

the better because you will be essentially trying and failing and succeeding more. And I'm a great believer in that thing of Babe Ruth the baseball player you know he swung more times than anybody else which meant that he succeeded more but he also failed more and that is really the essence of the funnel right which is have a lot of things at the top a lot of experiences and then filter them down until you find the one that is really right for you I mean it basically just sounds like an intellectualised offence for having slept with a shitload of people, but I'll let that slide. I'm only joking. It doesn't sound like that. That's the Bissini funnel approach to dating. And I do genuinely think it's very helpful. And I've used it with single friends of mine.

Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest. This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world.

I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Okay, let's get on to your failures. Your first failure is the failure of the business that you led and ran in your 20s. Yeah. What was that business? So it was a dot-com consultancy.

So this was the turn of the century back in the day, years ago and at the time the internet was just really starting right and all of the great companies like yahoo and aol these were like the big companies right probably most of your listeners have never even heard of these companies but anyway they were that they were the big companies and there was a huge spike in the markets and it was a bit like what we've gone through over the last few years. All of this money coming in, everybody was going to be a millionaire. It was like really exciting.

And in London, it was super amazing. You know, you'd go to things every evening, talking with entrepreneurs and technologists about how the world was going to change and what was going to happen. And I was lucky enough to find this group of Swedish brand consultants called differ. And they wanted to set a business up in London. And so I ended up by hook or by crook, there's a bit of a story there, but probably not worth going into leading this business. And I was 27. Right? And I literally had no idea what I was doing. I mean, I generally think I don't really have any idea what I'm doing, but I really didn't have any idea what I was doing. And I built the team. I took a couple of people, a good friend out of Procter & Gamble.

He came along to do it with me. And for a while, it was really going well. And then what happened in 2001 is there was this dotcom crash. And as the dotcom crashed, basically the business crashed with it. And it became very difficult quite quickly. So over the space of a few months, and I made some mistakes. So I wasn't honest about what was going on and I to anyone to anyone really I made the decision stupid decision to start to pay payroll on credit cards so top tip if you're an entrepreneur don't ever do that right because we were running out of money and these were my friends and you know it was just very difficult and so I started to build up like tens of thousands of pounds of debt and it really just sort of collapsed in on itself and yeah it was extremely difficult

at the time. Did you make the mistake of trying to work your way out of the crisis? Oh that's a very good question yeah I was working all the time and was doing nothing else but working every hour God sends. I was completely like beset with worry and didn't know what I was doing and didn't really get any support. And it was just, you know, it was very difficult. difficult and when the business actually it became clear that the business in London had to close and you know it had actually failed and we had to make redundancies and that was the first time that I'd made anybody redundant very difficult process to go through I took it very very badly and I ended up basically having a nervous breakdown I remember remember just like, in fact, in many ways, I don't really remember it that well, which, you know, as I've talked to other people who've been through breakdowns or depressive episodes, you know, your memory of it is, well, in my case, anyway, it's quite vague. And I didn't quite, I don't quite know what I was doing and all of that anyway I ended up essentially suicidal or having

suicidal thoughts and you know remember buying 500 paracetamol and a bottle of vodka and sort of sitting there thinking okay what what do I do next and so even to this day like when people say oh you know do I think I had a really suicidal episode well I'm not sure I did but I was sitting there with pills and vodka so what was going on there and I still like you know it's very difficult to sort of work out what was really going on and luckily a friend of mine at the time my ex-wife managed to sort of pull me back from the edge. And I started to sort of rebuild and retool. But it was a very dark time. I know that you don't remember the specifics of it. Do you remember the feeling when you were still going to work and trying to work your way out of it and putting

payroll on the credit cards? What did you feel like? What was the physical experience of your feeling? That was complete desperation. By that stage, I don't think there was any real hope left. It was just like, for whatever reason, I just felt compelled to just keep going. I didn't really feel like it would turn around. It was like really just desperate it was like awful and felt like constraining and full of fear and worry and in fact that's a good question I was never like hopeful that it would turn around I was more like fearful of it collapsing and so therefore

I was sort of investing and doing all my time and money and whatever just to stop it collapsing. I didn't ever really think by that stage, I wasn't like, oh, this, you know, something good will happen. Right. I was just like, I don't want this to collapse because it will just be awful. And what was your worst fear? If you knew it was collapsing, what was the worst part of that for you? The worst thing was like letting people go. That was really difficult. And then just, it was dealing with failure.

You know, I'd had failures before, but this one was really acute and I didn't handle it properly and wasn't equipped to sort of handle it and wasn't given the support that I needed. And so therefore, it was really about failing properly. Following that, when I sort of was repairing myself, I went into therapy for the first time, and spent all my time, or most of that therapy for a few years was about

trying to work out why at the time I was so wired to achievement yes so all of my self-esteem came from achievement achieving things right I can't relate right and so then when you have a real failure and you you haven't achieved something you've tried and you failed it just it was the first time where I really like was just knocked for six by that failure you know I felt terrible I just felt like I wasn't a good person and I was stupid and that I was worthless then you know you're having to let people go and you're making mistakes and it's just like the whole thing was just yeah it was it was very very difficult And can I ask you whether that belief that you had back then that you were worthless and that self-esteem lack, how much of that was wired to not only achievement, but other

people's perception of that achievement? Did you worry that you were letting your parents down, for instance? Yes. I mean, there was an element of I'm letting everybody down the people that work for me and the business that helped set it up and you know myself and yeah so there was there was generally but it was more internal than it was external the external came through embarrassment I remember feeling quite embarrassed by what was going on and the fact that I wasn't succeeding and that it was failing.

You know, that was more embarrassing for me. I didn't really feel like I was letting people down in that sense. I was just embarrassed by the failure. What happened to the vodka and the pills? I was at a friend's flat and my ex-wife came round with her mother and just sort of scooped me up, I think, and took me back or said something. And so I didn't go down that path. And then it was just a case of moving through the end of the business. So shutting the business down, which is always super painful.

You know, you've done the redundancy stem, but you've got a lot of paperwork to do to like shut it all down so I did all of that and then started to work on myself and retool myself basically and took a few months off went into therapy this was 2001 so this was September 2001 because I remember being at home I just got a job at Deutsche Bank and I remember being at home. I was due to start at Deutsche on the Monday, something like this. And I remember being at home watching TV and 9-11 happened and watching the planes go in. So I remember that time really, really vividly. It must have felt like the collapse of everything in so many ways. Yeah, it was. Collapse of so many certainties.

Yeah, it was. It was the first time that I really, I think, this is interesting. I've not thought this before. I think it was the first time that I realized that everything is not set in life. You know, like A-levels, I'd sort of got away with it. I hadn't done very well, but I'd still got to a decent uni. And this was the first time that I realized, oh, fuck, things can go really wrong. Not everything is set in life. You're not on a conveyor belt to like, you know, have a great life. Really,

things can go wrong. That I think was very unsettling to me. And humbling, it sounds like. Very humbling. Yeah, very humbling. If you could reach back in time and say something to 27-year-old Justin in his flat, in the lowest moment of his life, feeling this desperation and fear, what would you say to him? I'd say it's going to be OK. But the second thing I'd say is it's not that important. okay but the second thing i'd say is it's not that important actually now that's interesting because i remember when i went to capital one i worked for capital one for a while and cat one took life very seriously you know every lots of lots of alpha sort of achievement very clever people and i always used to say to people look it's only selling credit cards, right? It doesn't really, you know, it matters in the context of like jobs and business and all of that. But it's not that important. And retaining that perspective, I think, is very important.

I sort of learned. So I would say it's just not that deep. It's not that important. Quoting Cody Rigsby from Peloton there, it's not that deep. One of your favourite instructors. Justin, thank you so much for sharing that on this platform, because I know it will help so many people. I know that mental health is still so important for you as an individual, but also for the people who work with you so tell us some ways in which you respect your own mental health and look after it in your own life but also how you do that in your business

yeah mental health is is really important and that episode taught me that you know work can have a real impact on one's mental health and so you know for myself I think I'm just much more you know like I work very hard you know that but I'm much more able to separate things and I spend time sort of thinking much more and trying to be a bit quiet and disassociate. You know, I spend quite a lot of time, especially when things are getting very intense at work, deliberately trying to disassociate from what is actually going on. So to give an example of that, we went into a process to sell ClearScore in the early days to Experian,

and that ended up being blocked by the Competition and Markets Authority. It was a big knockback that in the sense of there was a year of work trying to get that deal done. It was very difficult. It was emotional. I mean, you know, because we were starting our relationship then. I remember definitely at that time, practicing techniques that I've been taught around disassociation of you know what is happening in work from yourself so meditating and imagining that you know that issue has form and shape and what sound is it making all of that is incredibly helpful to take away to get some separation from what you're actually dealing with right and putting

it outside yourself and seeing it as a separate thing from yourself right and so you know i learned those techniques during all therapy and meditation and things like that and those are very helpful and i still practice those things today and then in, we have a huge focus on both physical and mental health. You know, I think it is important to be physically and mentally healthy. Why? Because we talk a lot of clear score. And this is my general philosophy on life is, you know, we all have unbelievable potential you know i would go as far to say is we almost have unlimited potential and achieving that potential is your responsibility as a human being whatever form that takes but we're all given a set of skills you know skills and competencies and our bodies and our minds and getting the best out of that is really, really important. And being able to stay physically and mentally fit is a very important part of that journey to achieve your potential.

And that's your personal responsibility. But the fact that we spend quite a lot of time at work and at Clear School, we recruit people who are incredibly passionate and talented about, you know, what we do. And they tend to think about it a lot and spend a lot of time, you know, at work and whether that's at home or in the office. And so we have a responsibility as an employer to provide a range of services which allow them to continue to achieve in all spheres of their life. So we have a very healthy dialogue about mental health. We have lots of clubs,

you know, sports clubs and games clubs. I mean, just like loads of clubs where people can get together. We have an in-house psychotherapist who's used by the whole team very frequently. And the reason I put that in was because I really wanted to reduce the barriers to psychotherapy earlier in people's lives. I mean, you know this, I take that to like a really like ridiculous level. You know, one of the things that I bought my eldest son was a course of psychotherapy when they turned 16, right? And each of my children have done that, not because I think there's anything particularly wrong with them or that they need to sort out more than the average. Right. But I want them to see therapy as the same as going to a physio.

So if they hurt themselves on a sports field, they go and take these actions. If they're dealing with something in their lives and they need to talk to somebody and get a bit of perspective you just go to therapy and i think the more that we can normalize that behavior that options for sorting yourself out and that it's not a special weird strange thing to do or intimidate or intimidating the better for individuals and for our country and for the world. Talking about the importance of physical health there brings us onto your second failure. And once again, I'm extremely grateful that you are sharing this. And it's a very brave thing to do. Because I know, again, that so many men will relate to this and it's not often talked about and that's why I'm just extremely glad that we have this opportunity to do so and in your words it's your failure to ever look at your body and think that it looks good yes when did that start I think

it's always been there but I think it gets worse. It got not worse, but I began noticing it really when I was more conscious of my body. You know, when you're a teenager and things like that, like I don't really remember it when I was very small. But certainly ever since I've been a teenager and been aware of my body in that sense, I've never been happy with it. And what form does that unhappiness take how do you think you look I just don't think I look good when I look in a mirror I just immediately always just focus on the things that are wrong and I don't really see the the whole of it right and I I mean you know you live with me you know I spend a lot of time exercising, trying to be healthy.

So the rational part of me, by almost any measure, I'm super fit and super healthy. And I exercise a lot. You know, I take care. We take care of what we eat and all of that. But I still in my heart and emotionally, I'm never satisfied. I think about what I eat all the time, like just constantly like, and it doesn't necessarily stop me doing anything,

but I'm constantly thinking about it. And I'm constantly like sort of on a diet. I mean, I don't think I've ever been off a diet in like 30 years. Now it's not like there's intensities to it. So it's not like I'm on Weight Watchers or I'm doing this, that and the other. I'm just constantly like editing what I'm eating all the time. I never feel comfortable.

Every time I have a bowl of pasta, I feel guilty. You know, it's that sort of thing. Now, it's not a major issue for me in the sense of it doesn't drive me to behaviors which are maybe destructive. But I wish I felt better about it has it ever driven you to behaviors that you would categorize as destructive i've had a few i mean i've never said this to anybody i've had a few bulimic incidents you know occasions of bulimia over the years like short periods not not like prolonged where it's become like I've managed to like go this is not something that's healthy don't do it and I've managed to pull myself back but that impetus is there I

understand that impetus in people the reason I think it's so powerful that you're talking about this is because I can relate to every single word and I think that socially there's an expectation that this affects women and that gendered categorization is possibly really, really unhelpful and has marginalized a lot of people who are living with this and who feel that they can't speak about it because there's so much shame attached and so much secrecy. And that's why I think it's so bloody powerful what you're doing. and I'm so glad that you're doing it and I salute you for that it's been really instructive for me also because I can tell you that I think you look great and objectively you do but it doesn't have the impact that your loved one would wish that it does does it no okay has no impact is it worth doing anyway it's worth doing anyway yeah yes and

have you noticed that these patches get worse when you're particularly stressed is there any rhyme or reason to it it gets worse when I'm not exercising because then the whole thing sort of like okay you know like the exercise that I do sort of fights against it. I look at my body and, you know, I have a sort of dysmorphic reaction to it. Right. But if I know that I've done a lot of exercise, I'm sort of like, okay, well, I'm doing the best I can. And probably again, rationally, I know that I'm okay. And my body is okay. even though I don't feel it I don't like have a feeling for it yeah I have exactly the same thing that's in the kind of facts column the fact is I've exercised today but do you think that you then get trapped into a thinking of I need to earn

my right to eat oh I yeah I mean that's like the thing that is like really yeah i definitely feel that that i can eat when i've exercised now again there's an equation going off in my head and so it doesn't mean that i don't eat if i haven't exercised which i can see how people get into that very easily i'm lucky i don't have that but i'm constantly thinking that so it's not strong enough as an impetus or maybe i'm older now and i can maybe like a few years ago i would like stop eating if i wanted to you know lose weight when i got divorced that was when i was probably in my best shape and then i would i went on these mad exercise programs and things like that and there if I was trying to hit weight I would not eat for like two days and I would go to a sauna

to like you know lose weight and things which was a bit weird I was on one of those exercise programs where they weigh you all the time and like calipers and all of that sort of thing and if I had a weigh in I would be like a boxer I'd go to the sauna I'd go to the sauna and I'd sit in the sauna for an hour lose a couple of pounds of water and then know that I would hit my weight the next day I mean that's like not particularly healthy behavior no that's not healthy at all were you happy well I still looked in the mirror and wasn't satisfied yeah do you think that taught you something that even in your best shape yeah okay well it taught me that I'm never going to be satisfied and so that's a cross that I have to bear

like I don't think that particularly needs to change for me you know where I am but I definitely have a lot of sympathy and feeling for younger people especially to like my eldest son is part of that so he's 18 and he's sort of part of that love island body type thing right where they're hitting the gym there's huge pressure to like bulk up and be muscly and all of this sort of stuff and actually that's more important in many ways nowadays for younger people than having a functional body like i'm trying to retrain my brain to try and prize functionality overlooks do i have a body that is functional for me that allows me to do everything that i want to do that feels comfortable and are you grateful for it because i think that's the other thing that can

help is gratitude that you have that functionality yes that's right and that's part of it but i also disassociate a little bit like i you know i don't want to get too metaphysical but i do believe that part of my belief system is that we're in symbiosis with our body and that we don't own our body and that we're separate from it and And I'm hugely grateful for my body. And so it's sort of like I'm looking at something that I'm dissatisfied with the way it looks, but I'm really glad about the way that it functions. Yes, I actually was wanting to ask you about that, because I know that you are extremely influenced by Buddhism and the concepts of Buddhism. And one of those concepts, as I understand it, is that your body is a kind of flesh-covered avatar.

But what's really important is the soul that's carried within it. Does that help when you lean into that thinking? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, is that this symbiosis, your body is not you and your brain is not you. I mean, that's something Mo talks about, right? Mo Gowdat. Mo Gowdat talks about, you know, your brain. And I really believe that, you know,

that there's something that you are the thing that can observe your brain and equally you are the thing that can observe your body. Yeah. And so you are separate from it. And so insofar as i think about it i'm grateful for what my body allows me to do and i'm grateful for you know when i'm on the peloton or i do a boxing session or whatever i'll often walk away and i'll thank my body for being able to do it oh i love that you know and and so i i like my body in that sense i just wish that i looked like

a porsche 911 not a ford focus you do not look like a ford focus also i don't find porsche 911s attractive you look like a range rover velar if i think you know anyway wait or but you want okay i'm not good with my car but but do you see what i mean and to be honest it doesn't really matter what you think or a jaguar i know i know it's what i you know but that's the way i feel about it final question on this before we move on to the next one it's a biggie how much do you think it's driven by fear of death and the reason i ask you that is because i know both your parents had and have extraordinary stories of where they came from and the hardships that they survived and i wonder how much of it therefore comes down to wanting to be as healthy as vital seeming as possible in order to fight the ultimate battle?

I don't think it comes that much to death. It's more getting old, but I don't fear death. I've spent a lot of time thinking about death, you know, because of the Buddhist thing. And, you know, I have a sort of philosophy on it, which helps me to not fear death. And I don't fear death, which helps me to not fear death. And I don't fear death, but I do fear a bit getting old, that slow decline. I think watching my father die, and obviously, you know, my father died of Alzheimer's, and watching my mother and all of us, principally my mother though, caring for him as he died, was a difficult experience and an experience that I definitely would not want to go through so I do think about that when I'm exercising because obviously one of the best ways of

staving off dementia is to stay very active and lots of exercise and all of that and so and I definitely think about that thank you for sharing that for anyone who doesn't know your mother Ursula's story, I can give a handy pricey here, but I think you would do it better. There is another podcast that people could listen to that we did called Behind the Scenes of the Museum. Is that what it was called? I think it was called that. Yeah, Imperial War Museum. We walked around the Imperial War Museum, terrible name, great museum. And you go into more detail there. But I just think it's such an astonishing story. Would you mind sharing it? Sure. My mother is a refugee, which is why I think the way we treat refugees is very important in the world, especially where we live in the UK. But my grandparents were from the east of Poland, now the west of Ukraine, in an area that has had a plastic border for quite

a long time, you know, it's just moved from Russia, Ukraine to Poland. They were farmers around a place called Ternopil. And in the early part of the war, so in like 42, war so in like 42 the russians came in and annexed that part of poland and that's why it's ukraine now and a lot of the poles that were there got shipped out to the gulags actually in siberia but it was east of the ural mountains and if you go into google and just put ural mountains and you'll see how far away it is from Europe. It was like extraordinary, closer to China than Europe. And they got shipped in trucks. I had two uncles, my mother's brothers, Thaddeus and Adam, and they died on the journey. They would have been toddlers, maybe a two-year-old and a baby in arms. One died on their birthday and one died on Christmas Day,

believe it or not i mean just terrible and they're buried in unmarked graves by the side of the road i mean it's just unbelievable so they were all shipped to siberia and so there were a lot of poles there what happened was that they sort of escaped at that stage my grandparents were separated. So my grandfather, Wadiswaf, was in a male gulag, and my grandmother, Zofia, was in another one. And when they separated, they said, okay, if we escape, or if we get out, get out of Europe, because of course, they didn't know how long the war in Europe would go on. It might go on forever, as far as they were concerned, and get out into the Middle East.

And so a lot of Poles and displaced people generally, especially if they were Christians, ended up in the Holy Land. And so in 1942, late 1942, basically the Russians were fighting on multiple fronts and the Poles were sort of let out of the gulags. They sort of escaped, but it wasn't like they were tunnelling or anything. They just sort of let out. And then they walked, both of them independently, getting trains when they could, trucks when they could, etc, to Persia, which is now Iran. And they were in Tehran for a while. So this was like 43. And then they ended up in Jaffa, which is a suburb of Tel Aviv now. And they met through the Red Cross lists, which is why I still to this day give every month the Red Cross. Because, you know, I just imagine my grandparents having been on this

unbelievable journey, not knowing whether either were alive you know no mobile phones no letters nothing right and then they're literally like scrolling down lists on a notice board and then suddenly you see that your part you know your wife your husband is there I mean just I mean mind-blowing and so they then reunited and both then volunteered for the Polish army. And both of them served in the Polish army. My grandmother fell pregnant with my mother and mum was born in July 44 in Jaffa. In a refugee camp. In a refugee camp.

And my grandfather was fighting at the time in the liberation of Italy. So he fought at Monte Cassino, which was the Polish army under General Anders had a huge role to play there. After the war finished, they came back and were basically in Jaffa and my mum was sort of raised there as a little toddler. And then because my grandparents were displaced, so they couldn't go back home because it was Russia. And because they'd fought in the Polish army, there was a relocation scheme. And they could choose where they wanted't go back home because it was Russia. And because they'd fought in the Polish army, in sort of metal huts. And that's where my mum was brought up until she was probably six or seven. And then eventually they ended up settling in Lancashire, in Accrington, just outside Burnley. It was a very large Polish community

up there back in the day. And my mother basically was brought up there back in the day and my mother basically was brought up there such an amazing story the reason i wanted to go in such detail about your family is because for me it tells the story of the 20th century in europe in so many ways and i love listening to it so i hope it's also been interesting for other people who don't know us. And the critical thing is it is still happening today. Clear School, we're very lucky to have sponsored a Ukrainian family who is now living in a house that we're paying for. So parents, three children, one of which is a very small baby. And they are from Ternopil.

Exactly where your mother's family is. Exactly from where my mother is from. And they are now in the UK because of the war in Ukraine, because of that displacement. Exactly the same story. You know, it's just extraordinary that we think things have changed so much and they haven't really. And how we act and how generous we are as a people

is really, really, really important. We have to get your mum to meet that family. We should. Your final failure, which as you know, I'm really glad you're going to talk about, because I've written an entire book about friendship, which is out next April, and you're in it, because your third failure is your failure at friendship. Yes. How do you fail at friendship?

at friendship yes how do you fail at friendship well I just have never really worked out the sort of way that you just invest in friends friends always come down my list of priorities and when that happens of course it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy because you're not investing in those relationships. You're not investing time and effort and care. And so they become more acquaintances. And then when you do finally see those people again, it's sort of like you've lost the connection and things like that. And I have literally never really worked out how to do that and i watch you and you're you know an amazing friend to so many different people and the care and attention and time and energy and connectivity that you put in i just could

never imagine doing that so you enjoy time spent with friends when or or you can remember enjoying time spent with friends when you were a teenager or do you feel like you're always putting on a bit of an act I think that's quite a common feeling that sometimes you don't feel you can be fully yourself I definitely feel like that right I definitely feel like that especially my old friends who've been you know friends of mine for a long time but I feel out of sync because I haven't invested the time and energy to stay in sync and so therefore I always feel like I'm playing a little bit of a role when I see those people but even with people that I do have more of a up-to-date connection with.

Like Paul. Like Paul. You know, I don't find the time to prioritise that. And it makes me feel guilty all the time. That's so interesting because I know you don't prioritise it, but I didn't think it made you feel guilty. Well, I feel guilty because I feel like I'm letting people down a little bit and also I know that I'm probably letting that go in a way by by not prioritizing it you know so I feel some guilt about that but I don't oh god it's so difficult this stuff I mean

I just I don't really it's not enough of an impetus but i okay so from having observed you i feel you got married to your ex-wife and had children comparatively young and you were in that relationship for 17 years during which time you had three kids of varying ages and you were setting up two businesses during that time and then set up ClearScore afterwards that's an incredibly full calendar of things to juggle so this is a common experience amongst many people but predominantly men is that they do hemorrhage friendships around the time that they get married and become parents if they are conventional

life-seeking individuals and because again like I'm wary of generalizing by imperfect gender categories but generally speaking there is a belief that certain women find it easier to kind of communicate and have small talk at the school gates and all of that and to make connections. And men, a lot of the time, don't have those sort of social constructs where those kind of informal communications can happen. And so it's about finding hobbies that you can do together, like going to the rugby club, which I know you did for a while when you coached children with rugby but I don't think you're unique for hemorrhaging friendships during that time I think you were just really really busy and I think you're still really really busy yeah I am I am busy but I think that I think there's more to it than that I think I don't prioritize it and it's not a focus me. It doesn't really matter that much to me. But I sort of recognize that I might be missing out. And I recognize that it's not sort of normal. It's more normal to have

friends than not have friends. Do you think that's part of you that's avoidant that doesn't want to expose yourself to being let down that has a fear of investing lots of effort doing lots of emotional groundwork and then someone letting you down and so you remove yourself entirely not really that didn't track with you okay because I don't because you know I don't I don't need more emotional crutches around I'm self-sufficient enough that I don't need friends to sort of support me through things but I think it might be pleasant to have more friends and it might be stimulating and interesting and all of that. But I just don't have the ability to do it. It's so interesting because I do need friends as emotional crutches. And also my fear is like everyone dying.

So I therefore need to have more friends so that the chances of everyone dying simultaneously are negligible. And that makes me feel safer. But who do you go to? I mean, obviously, we never have a bad time. But if there was a relationship stress, you don't go to anyone, do you, to talk about it? And has that always been the case? Yes.

Why is that? Is there a fear of reciprocity there? Definitely a fear of reciprocity. I don't want to owe people anything. Right. Why? I don't know. That's a very good question.

I don't like the feeling that people owe me things. So I'm very happy to give a gift or to whatever. You know, I like that process, but I don't like the fact that i will then assume that that person owes me something you'll assume that yeah that that that they that i'll assume that they will then at that point feel okay that they owe me something yeah and i don't like that feeling it's why you also always like to do the cooking when people come around for dinner don't like that feeling it's why you also always like to do the cooking when people come around for dinner correct you'd yeah you would have a horror of them doing that for you no there are better examples of this let me think of some better examples as you know i would hate a birthday

party yeah right you love a birthday party i mean i would love one if someone organized one for me. I hate birthday that idea because I do not want that reciprocity. I do not want to feel like I owe all those people because they turned up at my party. But you don't mind if I do it or if your children do it? Well, I do a bit. You know, I don't insist on the kids coming around here, for example, because I don't want to put that on them. Right. I want if they want to come, they can come. Right.. But you know, I don't like that forcing that sense of reciprocity. But maybe that's because I don't take that much pleasure from it myself. Right? So going to somebody's party is not something that I would look forward to. Yeah, it's not something that I

would like, you know, massively enjoy, I'll do it. And I have like you know massively enjoy i'll do it and i have you know fun when i'm there and it's okay but it's not something about oh brilliant we're going to a birthday party yeah that i think i've identified what it is i think you don't like the social constructs you don't like the feeling that you have to live up to an objective expectation that has been designed by society. So it goes back to what we were saying at the very beginning about romantic relationships, a successful romantic relationship for you is one where we walk alongside each other and hopefully that lasts a lifetime. But it's not a failure if it ends because we've had that time walking alongside each other. Now, you're not falling into the socially constructed idea of romance, which is just being like run away with a coup de foudre, passion, all that sort of stuff. Although there is passion in it. And in the same way, maybe there's a social construct around friendship that sets you on edge because you believe that you are expected to behave in a certain way.

you on edge because you believe that you are expected to behave in a certain way and actually you want to show up as your fully authentic self and allow the other person to do that if they feel like it whereas there's this social baggage of like we must meet up for a pint and talk about what's going on in our lives actually you'd rather it was more authentic than that and you just did it when and if you felt like it yeah maybe no he doesn't agree it's just it's so interesting and we could talk about this for hours but we're not going to because what's very interesting about it for me is that you know this is the thing that i just haven't worked out what it is and i haven't worked out what it is in you either like i've spent a lot of time thinking about you know this issue various issues and i've worked i think i've worked out most of them right you know my body dysmorphia do you know all of these things like i've dealt with all of these

things this is the one i just can't work out and the reality is i can't work out whether i care that much i know know. I know. You know, but as I say that, you know, I don't want anybody who classes themselves as my friend to think that I'm sort of dissing them or whatever. You're not saying you don't care about them. No. It's about whether you care enough about friendship. Right. Generally.

Yeah. My final question is, do you think it's because as an entrepreneur, a CEO, a founder founder you have to be very on all the time at work and you have to have constructive collegiate interactions and communicate you have to constantly communicate and be very clear about your decisions and when someone comes to you with an issue you have to think quickly because indecision would cost you money and business and so you have to be so on all the time that maybe there's just not enough capacity left over to do that in friendships I think that's definitely that there's definitely a lot of truth to that I don't lack for connection with people I spend a lot of time at work with people who I really like. I think everybody's

terrific. And you and my children, you know, it's not that I lack connection in my life and I don't necessarily want to like sit in a room by myself the whole time and just, you know, be alone. So I don't feel the need for any more stimulation than that, any more connection. And maybe that's part of it. And maybe there'll be a phase in your life where you do feel that need when things might quieten down and that will be the growth of your wonderful friendships. Maybe. I'm glad I finally hit upon something that you said yes to.

That's a relief. I think I said maybe, didn't I? Maybe, sorry. How has this conversation been for you Justin it has been good slightly odd oh my god don't go overboard with the compliments um no it's been great it's been an interesting experience reflecting on that the most interesting thing for me was the body dysmorphia thing probably and me I haven't really thought that much about that for a while so that was very valuable I've loved it even though it is a slightly strange scenario because we wouldn't normally be talking like this and I wouldn't

normally be interviewing you but I've learned a lot I've fallen even more in love with you and I'm so grateful to you for trusting me enough to do this and for opening up in the way that you did because I know that you won't believe this but I know for certain that it will help so many people in so many different ways so I cannot cannot thank you enough, Justin Bassini, my beloved husband, for coming on How to Fail. Thank you, Elizabeth. I love you too. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.