How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, Ep2 How To Fail: Edward Enninful, the editor of British Vogue on body image, diversity and the joy of being friends with Naomi Campbell

Episode Date: September 7, 2022

This week I interview quite possibly the kindest man in fashion. I love him so much - and I know you will too. Edward Enninful is a pioneer: the first Black person and the first man to edit British Vogue, one of the most powerful magazines in the world. He was born in Ghana, emigrated with his family to the UK as a teenager and worked his way up through the fashion industry from model, to stylist and beyond. His new memoir, A Visible Man, charts this extraordinary trajectory and today, on How To Fail, Edward reveals the challenges that made him who he is today: from failing at singing, to dropping out of higher education and a self-perceived failure at weight loss that takes us to the heart of the fashion industry's historic problem with diversity. This is a fascinating, open-hearted conversation. Thank you, Edward. And rush out to buy his memoir now!--A Visible Man by Edward Enninful is out now and available to buy here: https://www.waterstones.com/book/a-visible-man/edward-enninful/9781526657015--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Naomi Mantin and Chris Sharp. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Edward Enninful @edward_enninful Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Edward Ennenfall describes himself as an outsider who found his way to the inner sanctum. He was born in Ghana to a seamstress mother and a military father, one of six children. The family emigrated to the UK when he was a teenager. Shortly afterwards, Eninful was spotted on the tube and asked to model. And shortly after that, he became the youngest ever fashion director of a national magazine at ID. Kate Moss and Naomi Campbell became some of his closest friends. Although his father wanted him to be a lawyer and was horrified when his son dropped out of an English degree at Goldsmiths,

today Edward Enninful OBE is the editor of British Vogue. His appointment in 2017 made him the first black editor and the first man to occupy that position. Under his editorship, the magazine has become a bastion for inclusivity and diversity. His cover stars have included everyone from Beyonce to Dame Judi Dench, while the September 2019 edition was guest edited by Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. His brilliant new memoir, A Visible Man, charts this extraordinary trajectory. A black, gay, working class immigrant who has made it to the highest echelons of the fashion industry and whose story clears the path for others to follow.

It is published a few months after he turned 50 and married his long-term partner, Alec Maxwell. It has then been quite a year. I have never experienced in all my dealings with people in that world anyone who was more kind and generous of spirit, said one of his former cover stars, Oprah Winfrey. Edward understands that images are political, that they say who and what matters. Edward Ennenful, editor of British Vogue, welcome to How to Fail. Wow, what an introduction. Thank you, Elizabeth, for having me. It is such an honour to have you. No, thank you so much for having me. You're doing a great job. Everyone tells me about you. I'm not worthy.

Oh, stop. You're doing a great job. And actually, I keep meeting people who know you and who describe themselves as your friend. And I have never met anyone during the course of working in a similar industry to you who has a bad word to say about you they are all like Oprah Winfrey so complimentary about your kindness and generosity and I think that that's so magically unique in a fashion industry that doesn't always have that reputation so I mean do you how do you manage it how do you manage to be so nice and kind I I mean, as I said, you know, when you read my memoir, I came from one country, emigrated to England. We didn't have much money. You know, we had each other.

We were six kids and living together and sharing rooms. And the fact that we were able to escape a country where my father could possibly have been assassinated. Every day is a joy. For me, every day is so joyful because we escaped something very harrowing and I was able to sort of have a life and dreams that have been fulfilled. So, yes, I have my off days, but mostly for me, it's a great world. It's a world that's been very kind to me and a world that, you know, has put me through ups and downs,

but always got up. You said that you left a traumatic environment in Ghana, but I know that there was one specific trauma that was very apparent from the moment you landed on British soil, which is that in Ghana, being black wasn't an exception. Whereas in Britain, the experience was very different, wasn't it?

Will you tell us a little bit about that experience when you first got here? Yeah, I remember the first instant we got off the plane, I think I was like 13, looking around and going to my brother, we were like, oh my God, it's all white people. Because we'd never seen a country sort of populated by people who weren't black. And then I remember sort of growing up at home in London, you know, but also growing up with sort of African traditions and African foods and my parents speaking a different language. And then I'd step out to go to school, to go to Lillian Bailey's,

and I'd be in another world where you had to speak English I mean yes it was populated by sort of black and south asians but it felt like living in two worlds and I always say that duality is really what informed who I became because I can really sort of fit into most places I can sort of understand nuances of culture and I can understand women and men from different backgrounds and you know I always talk about sort of inclusivity but from the very beginning I've always been a one women of all shapes and size all ages women of all you know religions so it was harrowing on one end but such a joy to be able to grow up how we did in two worlds and your mother was a formative influence for you wasn't she because she was a seamstress

and you learned to read women and what they wanted very quickly didn't you yes I mean you know I was always around my mother who was a seamstress and she had apprentices around. And I was always, I remember always sort of doing eyelets and fitting women into their clothes and knowing from one expression if they love whether we're wearing or not. And I also remember being around my mother and all her friends. And when you're a young African kid, they kind of forget you're there, right? They kind of gossip me always. I kind of grew up around the energy of sort of really strong, powerful women. So now, like I say, you know, when I'm working with Taylor Swift or Beyonce, I can tell in two seconds if they hate something. They don't even need to say it.

I can tell from an expression on the face or a movement of a body. Yeah. And that came from my mother, who really, without my mother, I wouldn't be here today. That's where I got my love of a body. Yeah, and that came from my mother, who really without my mother, I wouldn't be here today. That's where I got my love of fashion from. What do you think you inherited from your father? Discipline. I'm very disciplined. He was in the army, so you can imagine.

Disciplinary and sort of precision, sort of making up your mind quickly. So I learned that from my dad. Because you do have an incredible work ethic that is something that comes across loud and clear in a visible man because you know you've had serious health issues and you again and again will like leave hospital and go straight into the office. Yeah I mean you know growing up i had sickle cell trait coupled with thalassemia which is a blood disorder where your blood sort of takes the shape of a sickle so wherever it happens in your in your body normally your joints you're in incredible pain and sometimes

that pain can only you need morphine to sort of get it to even level out so i always had that and then you know i had sort of not the best vision in the world, not the best sight. I had sort of four retinal detachments. I had tinnitus in the ear, but somehow I'll still be at work. I remember when I had my first eye detachment and I was in hospital, you know, operated on all night. And two days later, I had to be on set to record something. And I did it, you know, because the work ethic I had for my parents was, you have to just do what you have to do or what you've promised. Like if I promised to do something, 100%, it'll be that I'm not one of those that won't show up.

Or maybe if I say I'll do something, I do it. So I got that definitely from my parents. You know, like I said, they came from another country. So they had to have that as well. Are you fearful of what you might find if work didn't exist? That's certainly my perspective. Like my work is so much part of my identity that I'm almost scared of peering into the abyss.

I mean, I did when I was younger, but there's something happens when you turn 50, which is that, you know, enjoy the moment, enjoy your work, enjoy your friends, enjoy it all now. But that fear kind of disappears. But I had that my whole life, you know, to miss a day of work. I'll get on God knows how many planes a week from LA to London back again. And I'll do all this without even thinking about it because that's how I've been programmed. And also, I don't know about you, when you start working at a very young age, you know, you don't know when to say no, how to say no. You try to please everybody. And that's something that took me a long time to sort of learn how to get over and make sure that I find

happiness in what I do. I'm so glad that I'm going to feel so enlightened and zen when I turn 50. That is great to know. Thank you. The second part of that Oprah Winfrey quote was about your understanding of the fact that images are political. I am such a huge admirer of the terrific work you've done at British Vogue, because for me, it's not just about inclusivity and diversity. It's about something so much deeper than that.

It's about a vision of a world where all are welcome and it's not at the cost of quality or intelligence or style. There's something so intangible about what you've achieved there. But I would love to give you the opportunity to put that into your own words why are images political images are political I mean you know what did Nina Simone say an artist has to reflect their time so for me from ID magazine right till now when I was at ID as a teenager I wanted to reflect the world we lived in which was you know we were all trying to outdo each other creatively.

We were all trying to show what we looked like. So it was very much about street fashion and all different races were welcome. All different, you know, like I said, religion, ages. That was ID Magazine. That's what I grew up with. A world where everybody was welcome. And I feel like that has followed me in my whole career. So I've also seen British Vogue as a different place. But I also looked around and saw a like that has followed me in my whole career so I've also British Vogue is

a different place but I also looked around and saw a world that was changing and for me if you can see it you can be it right when I was growing up I didn't have that many people to sort of direct me in fashion so I had to sort of learn by myself as well as my friends like Naomi Campbell or Pat McGrath but I know now that when you see yourself reflected in a magazine, possibilities are endless. And Vogue is such an incredible name. You know, I always say I'm just a custodian while I'm there. You know, when I move on one day, Vogue will still be there. But while I'm there, it's my responsibility to reflect the world

as I would like it to be or how we would all like it to be. So now for me, one of the best parts of the job is when a girl in a hijab comes up to me or somebody curvy comes up or an older woman comes up and goes, thank you. You know, we see ourselves. And then for me, my job is done. That's when I'm happiest. I wanted to create something that was,

for anybody who's ever been avid, to be honest, anybody who felt like they didn't belong, you know, you wanted to create a play, not at the cost of quality. Never, he says, sitting there in his impeccable suit jacket and shirt. Never at the cost of quality. I love that you casually mention

one of your best friends, Naomi Campbell, because she comes out so brilliantly in your book as this woman who just gets shit done. She will get people to do what she wants them to do. And she will get you to do what she needs done with a smile and with humour. And, you know, I mean, Naomi's always, people always sort of give her a bad deal,

but she is a fierce woman. She is outspoken, but she's also very kind. She's so loyal. I'm sure you've seen that a lot. She'll always be there for you. All those periods when I wasn't feeling well or whatever, she'll always be there. And we've known each other for over 30 years. I also adore what she represents for women like me, who I'm not a mother yet,

I still want to be. And she has shown that it can be done at any age. And you can still be the mother that you've always wanted to be. Please tell her that when you next see her. Okay, please do. It means a lot to me. It really does. And many women like me. So before I get onto your failures, I've got two questions about the memoir. Why did you call it A Visible Man? It's really funny because there's a famous book called The Invisible Man, Black American book. And everyone's like, is that the reason why? You know, I don't even want to compare my book to the greatness of The Invisible Man.

But what I did want the world to know was that most Black people feel invisible. My whole life, I was meant to feel like I was invisible. And every step I've taken, every decision I've made has been about visibility, has been about being seen. Not just me, but me and whether it's a race, whether it's people who are gay, whether, like I said, people who've been othered, it's being seen. So I had to make myself visible when I was told that I couldn't, when I told I wasn't good enough, when I told I wasn't from, you know, the right circle, didn't go to the right school, didn't grow up in the right place. All those things I used to my advantage, hence a visible man, you know, I was not going to be invisible in a world that said I was

I think that you have a speaking in a writing manner that they're both very calm and it's not how I've ever described someone's writing before but I just felt so safe in your rightly hands are you actually calm or is that just a good impression okay that's the first thing most people will say but also you know I'm look I'm human so you know sometimes it might not show on the surface but I do have the anxieties that everybody has but I've learned over the years especially with as you said with all the elements I have not to let my blood pressure go up too high because I you know I have that too so I always try to stay even where I can. Even when I'm dealing in situations where I'm not happy,

I can still convey a message in the calmest way. And it has to stay. How? How do you do that? Teach me your ways. If I don't, my blood pressure's going to shoot through the roof and then you know what's going to happen? I'm going to, my eyes are going to pop out. And, you know, I do things like, you know what's gonna happen i'm gonna my eyes gonna pop out and and you know i do things like you know i meditate every morning and i work out almost every morning when i can just things to keep me sort of sane

so you're not a sort of shouty bitchy editor no no i don't think my team will say that either. I'm so lucky to have a team who believe that, you know, magazine can change the world or how people perceive the world. So my team, I'm so lucky. It's not just me, you know, creating British World on my own, but I have a like-minded team who sometimes will point things out before I see it. Like, no. And who are not, you know, scared to have conversations with me about the times we

live in or but they really do believe in what you see in the magazine have you worked for shifty bitchy editors who made you feel diminished yes I have and I'm not saying which one are their initials no I'm joking but you know what to be really honest because I've always been quite calm even those editors who you know they never did that with me somehow somehow I don't bring that out in people I never really have I think if you want to have a conversation we can but raising voices and it won't work with me I mean it never has. My final question before we move on to your failures is why did you decide to write your memoir now because I know you've been asked for many many years. I've known sort of many times and you know we went into a pandemic the world

stopped and then George Floyd was murdered and then seeing everybody, the whole world literally rushing out to sort of correct this injustice. So many young people out there asking why, asking questions. And I feel finally seeing what a lot of Black people go through when you leave your house and you don't feel safe or you don't feel the safest in the house of the police. I think people saw it. And I thought this is the moment to write a book

for the young generation and for sort of people who've followed my career and all these women who I have so much respect for and men, and it felt like the right time. Well, I feel like anyone who picks it up and reads it will think it's the right time too. So moving on to your failures, number one is that you failed at singing which led you into fashion

tell us about your failed singing career well you know I grew up you know I grew up in a household I'd say a semi-religious one so then we'll go to church and you know I'll be the first one to jump up when the choir when you had to sing a song I'll be the first one to jump up when the choir, when you have to sing a song. I'll be the first one to jump up at a party to sing happy birthday. And I remember when I was spotted to be a model by Simon Foxton at the age of 16 on the tube, thinking, okay, this modeling thing's fine, but I really want to be a singer. So I joined a band and they rehearsed every, I'll say every, you're going to laugh at this,

they rehearsed every Monday at King's Cross and I was so excited, you know, I was in a new world. Imagine the kid from Africa now, now muddling, now I'm going to be a great singer. We went for one session, I thought it was fantastic. And I got a call that evening from the to the guy who was heading the band saying oh we've disbanded and I was so naive I believed it and then the next day I guess after college on my way home like, okay, I think we're just going to carry on with fashion. But I remember it like it was yesterday.

King's Cross Station. King's Cross, yeah, changing platforms. Yeah. Another trend is seeing them all together. So, yes, that was a big failure. I'm still the first one to jump up and sing at a birthday party or event. It hasn't stopped me, but professionally, failure. So what's your go-to karaoke track?

Whitney Houston. Oh, my goodness. You are not a man of modest ambition. No, not at all. If you're going to fail, fail all the way from my height fail gloriously and I will always love you with news so that failure how did that just mean that you then concentrated full pelt on fashion that was it but that was the moment I'm like you know my friends have bands where I'll provide backing vocals or, you know,

like they'd be performing in a pub and I'd show up and that was it. Finished. I was done. I just focused on fashion. And so Simon Foxton, who you mentioned there, who spotted you on a Hammersmith and Cityline tube, he worked for ID, is that right? ID Magazine and Arena at the time.

he worked for ID is that right? ID magazine and Arena at the time. So tell us why he was such an integral figure in your life at that point? You know when I met Simon I'd just left Lillian Bayliss school which is where you live. Just around the corner from me in Vauxhall shout out to Lillian Bayliss. And I decided I wanted to go to Kingsway College in King's Cross just for a change and I decided I wanted to go to Kingsway College in King's Cross just for a change and I always had sort of big glasses and a big a mini afro and I remember something new came out called contact lenses I remember when it came up and I forced my mom to get me a pair so I got a pair of contact lenses and literally within two weeks I'm on the train I went to the Hammersmith and went to Hammersmith to sort of you know when you had the little bank books I've been national yes I went to get you know five pounds or whatever so I went from Lubbock Grove where I grew up West London Portobello to Hammersmith on the way back there was a gentleman staring at me and being and

I was so innocent I hadn't I didn't know anything about you know the fashion world I didn't know who the people were and when we got to Baker Street where he got if he got up and gave me his card and explained he was Simon Foxton and he was a stylist for ID magazine and I mean I didn't even know what that was to be honest so I remember going home and you know teenagers forcing mum call this person call and mum wouldn't mum's like I know that industry it's full of it's full of funny people and I didn't even know what she meant I think yes I think she probably thought she probably meant gay so yeah that's how I met Simon and he became you know my mentor we did so many shoots together I became his assistant when I was you know sort of 17 still going to college and he just introduced me to this world that was so incredible and you know I thought I was, still going to college. And he just introduced me to this world that was so incredible.

And, you know, I thought I was on my way to being a lawyer, like most African kids. And I realised that there was a place in the fashion industry for me. And Simon always shot models of all races and from all different backgrounds. So really, he taught me a lot. And he really did change my life. And the rest, as they say, is history.

You write very movingly about what you were like as a model in the book. And there's this quote that I'd love to read back out to you, doing one of those really embarrassing interviewer things. If modelling makes you think at first, oh, I must look good, you soon start to feel like the ugliest person in the world because there's always someone better looking taller a lot of models you know being more subjective you go to so many castings and there's so many jobs you don't get not because you're you're not attractive but it's because what they're not looking for but imagine being a 16 year old your identity's already forming you know and the rejections I mean knocks it out of you so quick even when you say to people like Naomi and Kate who stuck with it there's still that sense of insecurity of sometimes not feeling good enough you know when you still

don't get the job and then the whole world would think oh but you're Kate Moss but there's still that feeling of you know you'll never be good enough. Wow. I think that's such an extraordinary and important thing for people to hear. That, you know, Kate Moss has her insecure days. She has her days of feeling like an imposter. Okay. Everybody has.

And, you know, especially the world of modelling, it doesn't make you feel the most secure no matter how beautiful you are no matter how every model will have that story of not feeling worthy because there's always somebody else so the ones who put everything into modeling and don't have other interests whether it's friends or family are the ones who suffer the most there's no outlet so I say model but do other things you know sing have a great family already have great friends around you because they'll always be there when you have those down moments because you also had to deal with the predominantly white gays at the time how does that feel I'm actually laughing I remember you know you I was saying you know

you leave home you think I'm leaving I mean I left home just before my 18th birthday or whatever. And I remember when I left home thinking, I'm going to find my tribe. I'm going to find my family, my new family. And then you go to the gay scene and you realize that they have all these derogatory words for people who like black men or people who like an Indian man or somebody who likes to do this. There were all these derogotic keywords that I discovered. So, you know, you go from home feeling, I don't know why you essentially feel I have to get out to find myself to a world that also starts to sort of,

yeah, I've seen a segregated way. So it's a double hitter, really. You saw Navigator and I had such great friends. And, you know, I would hang out with my family still and we'll go to clubs together. But yeah, it was an eye opener. How do you feel about the language of, and I put it in quotation marks, coming out? Because I feel that there's a sense that coming out implies something that's been a dark, ugly secret, that you're finally coming out into the light.

And it can be quite a prejudicial label, but I wanted to ask you how you felt about that terminology before I ask you about your sexuality. It's so funny, I've been having this conversation. Do you know there's a whole new generation of kids who said there's no need to come out? Yeah. Straight people don't come out, so why should they? Exactly. And I remember, you know, with with me I was always sort of very quiet

sort of very soft-spoken so I didn't have to do the big coming out moment that's why it's not in the book I was just who am I thought people didn't know but then I actually found out when I did say to people well I'm gay that they thought I was gay all along anyway but I didn't have that big moment back then it was important to a lot of people, like a rite of passage almost. You're like, this is who I am and I'm really claiming it at the expense of rejection sometimes. A lot of people couldn't handle it, a lot of families couldn't handle it. But I do like the new generation who was like, why am I coming out?

So, you know, yes, you're very right about that. It's not like you were hiding something dark and not like who you are. Exactly. And what I love is that your parents were really supportive, each in their own way. Your mother, you say, was really happy. Yeah, really happy. I introduced my first partner when I had one.

It's like, mum, here you are. And even my dad, who, you know, we haven't always seen eye to eye. It's fine. It's fine. They were no, you know. He was't always seen eye to eye, it's fine. It's fine. They were no, you know. He was more disappointed that I didn't become a lawyer than anything. Did you have to come out as a fashion editor? You're like, I've got to sit you down, dad, and tell you I'm not going to be a lawyer.

Just before we get onto your second failure, because I know that it does involve your dad, have you ever watched America's Next Top Model? I used to watch it when it was on, yes. I used to watch it loads. I always was like, oh wow, modelling's really, really hard when I watched that programme. I knew Tyra when she was a model. Oh, tell me about Tyra. Tell us about Tyra. She was young. She was a great model. She did all the shows in Paris and Milan. And I think she realised that sort of TV was the right way for her. So she branched out. So she really was a great model the few years that she modelled

in the fashion industry. Yeah, she introduced me to the concept of smizing. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened

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Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Your second failure is your failure at higher education, which as you say, led you to today. So you went to Goldsmiths to study english because you are very smart now what happened when you got to goldsmiths so i got to goldsmiths i followed my friend steve mcqueen the brain i don't know x model he's a great film director directed sort of widow so he's a slave and he was going there to study art i mean i got in so you know I'm going to study English and then politics I don't even know why I studied that's my second subject and I remember sort of trying to study

at that point I was sort of assistant Simon sort of working a bit at ID trying to do so many things and still trying to go to university and I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine and saying, I don't know what to do. This is what I really love, but my family don't really, my dad doesn't really understand this. I remember my friend saying, you know, whatever you choose to do, make sure you love it because your parents will not be around one day and you'll be stuck with it, with the unhappiness.

I always remember that. Anyway, we're at Goldsmiths, we're're studying and I remember one teacher saying to me so what do you want to do when you leave here and I said but I'd like to sort of be a fashion editor or working fashion or be a fashion journalist and she's like what are you doing here this is what most people want to do when they leave here this is what you want to do so just go do it and that's what I did after three months they gave me a doctorate because it was a few years ago so I was very very grateful yes but sometimes you have to do what's from the heart isn't it and how did your father take it how did he find out well I mean as I say in the book I remember after three months of sort of hiding from him, he asked.

And I mustered the courage to tell him I hadn't been going to Goldsmiths. And I'd been working in fashion. I'd been working with Simon as his assistant. I'd been going to ID Magazine. And he was furious. And I remember just picking up my stuff and literally threw it out of the window, second floor window. I was really sort of devastated. And I remember picking up my clothes, but also in the back of my mind, knowing that I was never coming back. That also spurred me on to succeed in a world that, going back to

Invisible Man, where I was invisible, you know, I was starting to now find myself and I was like you know somehow I'll be okay and then the irony is I was picking up my stuff and going into ID magazine as I said I was 18 then and telling Beth Summers what had happened and Beth was like well guess what I'm going to be leaving and you will be taking over the same day how crazy is is that? That's incredible. Do you believe in fate? I know you have a faith. 100%. I can't explain my life without thinking faith has something to do with it. What you do with that, if you know, look at you, you work so hard. You still have to work hard. Fate can hand you, you know, incredible moments and chances, but you still have to work hard to stay there. But I do definitely believe that things that have happened in my life did you I failed at higher education and again this is

something that is so wonderful for people to hear because I do think as you must I speak to a lot of people in their 20s who feel very lost and who feel like they failed at higher education and that that is going to mark in a negative way the rest of their lives. And that's why it's so good to hear that there are so many different paths. Oh my God. Yeah. And so many successful people didn't necessarily finish higher education. Yeah. Some of the best minds I know didn't finish their education and then some of the others did, but yeah, everyone's path is different. So for young people, I say, I know, didn't finish their education. And then some of the others did. But yeah, everyone's path is different.

So for young people, I say, you know, if something's not for you, just study who you want to be. Is there somebody out there who's doing something that you would like to do? If it's not, you know, keep an eye on. And the thing is, the new generation have social media. I didn't have it growing up. So, you know, whatever you're interested in, you will find other people you will find your tribe I just say you know if that's how you're feeling yes if you have an education something you can fall on it's great but if it's not for you find your tribe and who was that for you at that age did you have someone that you really looked up to as a a role model a hero you know, I mean, my mother was always my,

aside from my mother, I had, you know, my God, I had Simon Foxton was one. I had Terry and Tricia Jones, who started this incredible magazine, ID. Terry Jones was the art director at British Vogue. He woke up one day and said, we need to document something called street fashion. All these people are, so Terry started,

and Terry and Tricia were like my sorority parents even now we speak so often and Terry was such a hero the way he created a family atmosphere you know I did back in the day when he came to my office I'll have people all kinds of actors and actresses all sitting around my table all day long so it was kind of a very family atmosphere and that's something that carried with me over the years did you ever feel intimidated in that world because I started when I was so young whatever I was feeling I managed to hide you know and you know how you want to be grown up at 16 18 so even though you're sitting there having grown up conversations inside you're like oh my god you know I can't show them I'm still a kid I have to be really

grown up and somehow it works because half the people I knew from that time thought I was so serious and so I knew what I was talking about even if I didn't I was never scared of the industry because you know like I said where I had just come from a few years yes the context is everything for our lives so that's why I'm able to view the world in such a great way because you know I wasn't supposed to be here was editing British Vogue on your mental mood board was it something that you always secretly felt deep down you were going to achieve or was it something that you always secretly felt deep down you were going to achieve? Or was it something that you were allowed space to come into your life? I think fate came into my life because before British Vogue, I'd been at ID for four times, probably for about eight years and freelance a total of 20 years. From there, I went to work with Franco Sosani at Italian Vogue.

And Italian Vogue in the 2000s was this incredible place where you could sort of style the biggest stories and have pages. And I remember working with Anna at American Vogue for six years and then moving on to W, where I became creative director. So that was the first time I was in charge of not just the fashion, but just overseeing, you know, everything, sort of the words in front of book, just really sort of having essentially the same kind of education. I had an idea because when I was working, I was a teenager with one assistant. We didn't really know what we were doing, but what I learned, Elizabeth, I learned about how to shoot covers while you were writing interviews, while you were interviewing people, while you were doing the shopping pages,

while you were in the art department. So I learned on the job. I remember in the 90s thinking, well, you know, British Vogue is not for people like me, you know, it's a specific thing. And I remember when I was sort of, I got a call to say they wanted to interview me for British Vogue. I literally was thinking, I have nothing to lose. I'm just going to tell them what I think the magazine should be. And the fact that, you know know my predecessor had done a great job but I just felt that a lot of the women I knew couldn't relate to it a lot of women I knew couldn't see themselves in there so I had a very honest interview thinking I was never going to hear back I had a pretty lucrative style and career anyway no it wasn't on my mood board because I didn't think it was for

somebody Black, gay, you know, from my background. But then little did I know that the world was ready for change. And I'm so happy that it's been a successful magazine that it is. I'm so happy how welcoming it is. And like you said, it's not just about race. It's about even if you're not able-bodied, you're still welcome. Pretty much what I learned at ID all those years ago. Yeah. Do you know what I compare it to now when I pick up an issue of your vogue? I, when I was at university, did work experience at Tatler.

And it was one of the worst professional experiences I have ever had because I didn't feel welcome. I didn't feel like I fitted in. I felt like I was dressed wrong. Everyone was so unfriendly apart from the girls in the fashion department. They were lovely. And I left early. I invented an excuse because I just felt so depressed going into work every day. And the contrast between that and podcasting, like podcasting is a community that is so meritocratic and that I felt welcome from the off. That's how I feel when I pick up your Vogue. And I think it's such a beautiful thing that you have done for the rest of us. And so I thank you for that because it goes far beyond the power of a single magazine that is so powerful. I suppose I wanted to ask you a question that it sounds really crude, but I know that you'll have a very interesting answer. Is the fashion industry more racist than the world at

large? Or does it reflect the racism of the world at large? I think it reflects the racism of the world at large. And I'll give you an example. When George Floyd was murdered, a lot of people put the black sign on their Instagram. And I remember having conversations with so many companies that were going, this is not new. This is something that people of colour have lived with their whole life.

What you need to do now, it's a great opportunity for you to now start employing people from all ages, all races. I always go back to that behind the scenes. That's the only way you can change the fashion industry. That's the only way you can change a company. So that's really been the messaging. And I think a lot of companies listened and a lot of companies started,

but it was the only way forward or we wouldn't have an industry. So I think now, you know, when you look a lot of companies, you know, they've got more employees of color. And hopefully it's not just a temporary thing. But I always say it's very easy to take on interns and say, oh, they're going to work their way up. Half the interns don't reach the top. Like you said, the culture of a place can make you quit. For me, I'm just like any industry it's not just in terms they have to be people coming

in in the middle and at top levels because that's the only way companies can work that's the only way an industry can change when on all levels you can see yourself reflecting and I should also point out that every single magazine that you have edited or had an input in the sales have skyrocketed so it's also something that is like very beneficial for the bottom line, which I don't know. I mean, obviously it's always the bottom line. Yes, every magazine's done really well financially. But like I said, I didn't reinvent the wheel.

I just looked and just thought, how can you bring more readers? Like you think, how can you bring more listeners? It was literally that simple. I did not create a new way of the the world being it was like who was being excluded when we were in lockdown one of my favorite issues we did was Judi Dench on the cover they were saying if you're over 60 your life was over stay at home and we had to show the world right so we had Judi Dench our oldest ever cover girl and then from then we moved on you know into

essentially a pandemic so it's like you know what here's a breath of fresh air we'll give you 14 landscapes you know to really take a deep breath and then you know we followed that with the september issue about activism when george floyd happened and then we had an awesome issue with essential workers because i look out my window and think, these people were not just going to work. Every time they left their house, their lives were at stake, essentially. So those four issues, Julie Dench, the essential work,

the landscape and the activism issue, for me, I'm so proud of those, because I hope in 10 years' time you can look back and British World would have documented a slice of what a pandemic was like or what a time was like. Absolutely. And you put out 12 issues during the first year of lockdown, like month by month.

It wasn't easy, I tell you. Weren't you like the only magazine that managed it? I mean, good grief. You probably did it with two detached retinas. It wasn't easy, but we did it. The team are amazing. We went together and we managed to did it. The team are amazing. We went together and we managed to be minister. And we had fun.

We had fun finding new ways. I know that you're asked about this a lot, so it would be remiss of me not to, but in July 2020 you tweeted something that went viral about having been racially profiled by a security guard at Vogue House. And I think

in the context of what you were saying there about lots of people putting those black squares on their Instagram accounts, I think people felt like that was enough. And they probably didn't realize, privileged people like me in my metropolitan bubble, that you, one of the most senior men in the fashion industry, are still dealing with microaggressions on a day to day basis. So I suppose I just wanted to ask you about that and ask you where you're at with that now, whether you've seen any positive change. I mean, like I said, you know, I'm a black person living in London. I'm a black person living in the world. It wasn't the first time I'd been profiled. It won't be the last.

But what I learned from that, like I learn every day is, okay, what can I do to make it better? So the little black kid walking in who doesn't have power gets treated in a better way. But that's really why I did it. For me, look, my career, you know, has been great. I'm in a great position, but it was for those kids who don't have the status,

but they needed to know. But I also, you know what else I did, Elizabeth? It also taught me never to think that my life was so perfect that these things

didn't happen anymore. So I actually embraced it and I was glad because it's there, like, you know, never think you're too big, never think you're too thick, whatever it is.

So, yes. And now Vogue, now 40 percent of the staff are people from other races. And I look around in the industry now where black models on the colour is no longer an issue, where people with disabilities are embraced, people of different religions are embraced. People with disabilities I embraced. People of different religions I embraced. I was just so happy that my industry is moving forward towards that kind of inclusivity. And I know your beloved mother died a few years ago and I'm so, so sorry for your loss. And I can only imagine how proud of you she is

from wherever she's looking on. Thank you. She was an amazing woman. You know, I got my love from her. My love was, you know, she saw magazines around. I remember I'd always loved magazines. She'd have Ebony magazine, Jet magazine, and I had an aunt who was a hairdresser.

So I literally devoured the words. And yes, I do miss her her but I'm really excited and happy that she also gave me a love of culture which is really what I wanted to do at British World not just create a fashion magazine but a magazine where fashion was part of the cultural landscape politics art the music so I miss her dear, but she's still here. Your final failure, and I'm so glad you've chosen to speak about this. And I imagine it cuts very deep for you and it's your failure at weight loss. That's how you put it. I think a lot of people will identify. I remember always being sort of so thin and being told that you had to be a certain size.

And then I turned 30 and I think my metabolism was slowed down or something. I put on weight and I spent so many years trying to get it off. And then one day I turned around and thought, this is who you are. This is who you are. So long as I go to the doctor like I do every six months whatever to check my health and I'm okay whatever size I was it's okay I know everybody talks about sort of size inclusivity it was just something I can identify with so well that when you're struggling to lose weight and the more you struggle the less weight you lose and I'm just like you know what I'm just gonna accept myself

that's what I did I think a lot of people can relate to that yeah as long as you're happy and healthy you know yeah you look wonderful today over zoom I dressed up for you thank you I just I put a red lip on for you because you're the editor of Vogue but I wonder what your thoughts are like why are we so obsessed I'm no exception I hate it I hate how much internalized shame I have related to a completely arbitrary number on the waistband of a pair of jeans where does that come from Edward well it comes from what you grew up seeing what the fashion industry reflected to you. Like I said, you know, a lot of women did not see themselves reflected, you know.

I grew up in a culture where if you were skinny, something was wrong with you. Where are your curves? So I grew up with arts and grandmothers who were curvy, whatever you wanted to call it, and were celebrated. So even though I was having a challenge eventually, I was like, you know what? This is where I come from.

This is who I am. It's just about embracing who you are. And I saw it growing up. My sister would walk in. She's very thin and I'd say, what's wrong with you? You need to eat. Do you say that to Kate Moss?

Are you like, get some meat on you I don't know but there are also people who are naturally skinny unfortunately who can eat whatever they want

I've also seen that yeah I think Kate's also had her moments up and down but whatever size you are so long as you're happy but I just need

the industry to create a safe space for people who are not what people think should be the norm yeah I want designers to really create sort of clothes to you know that can fit people who are not that tiny size and I hate that word norm even like what is that word when do you think you were unhappiest with your body image like what was going on in your life around that time you know with me like you said you never had ailments I was going through surgeries you know I wasn't feeling so good in myself I have to be careful

you know I have like I said I got high blood pressure I got thalassemia so for me it's sort of health related so at those moments when I wasn't feeling at my best and not being able to follow a routine not being able to go and do my workouts not being able to that's when I'd feel my worst but so long as I was you know able to function as a person I was okay whatever way that was I learned to love them. And do you think beyond the fashion industry and looking at social media, which I know you're very active on social media and you write really beautifully actually

about why that is in the book. Do you think that we all have a responsibility on social media not to purvey this idea of an impossible body standard, not to use face tuners or image tuners or to give ourselves those waspish kardashian corset wastes like how do we tackle this beyond the fashion industry i mean i think you know look i can't tell people how to appear i don't know what kind of people say psychologically it's a big conversation but all i know is that when it comes to my social media, I try to sort of have a cross-section of people.

I try to, you know, promote positive images. I think it will take a while. It will take a while for everybody on social media to, you know, think that way. But I think you can only do what you can do. You can post what you can post. And I try to post that and I try to reflect that. And the posts for British Vogue as well.

So I'm trying. You're doing brilliantly. Thank you. And what do you think your failures have taught you? My failures have made me who I am today. Without those failures, I wouldn't have learned. My failures have taught me that, you know what? You can build down, but you will always rise up. That's what I've learned from failing. And had I not

failed, I might not work like I do. I might not, you know, see the world like I do, but those failures made me who I am. Those failures eventually became my strength. We touched earlier on the fact that your father took a while to come around to the idea that you had left Goldsmiths and that you wanted to pursue this career in fashion. Will you tell us what happened when you were awarded your OBE? Because it's this beautiful moment of reconciliation. Yeah, I mean, so I was awarded an OBE. And I remember my father, you know, he's a military man. He's very, always very calm and collected. And I had a party.

I was living in New York at the time, and I had a party at the Marx Club. And my dad came with me to the palace. I was with my sister and my partner and my father's parents. Everyone says he was crying, but somehow he wouldn't show it to me. I thought of what that must have meant for him, what he really had to flee a country where he would have been killed and bring all these kids to another country and watch one of those kids be awarded an OBE. You know, he's from the Commonwealth anyway. You know, the Commonwealth has a sort of a great

tie-in with Great Britain. And I remember at this party, you know, Madonna, there were all these celebrities, and I could just see him dancing. And everyone literally came up to me saying, your dad is so proud. And that was a special moment, you know. I mean, since my mother passed, our relationship is good now anyway. But it was very, very special. More for him.

I even accepted the award because I knew how proud it would make him. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. get I think I gave him my medal too oh oh Edward you are such a lovely lovely man you are a lovely man and a visible man you have not disappointed me in any way shape or form all of those people who say how kind and generous and lovely you are only speaking the truth I can't thank you enough for your openness thank you for having me I really enjoyed it okay so when we finish you've got to tell Naomi Campbell that I love her I'm literally going to do that and she'll be on your show if you want her very soon very soon. Oh, yes, please. I'll rack her up. I'd also like Beyonce and Michelle Obama.

So if you can put in some words, and Oprah, while we're at it, while we're at it, just go through your Rolodex for me. You're doing a great job. You're doing an incredible job. That means so much to me coming from you, someone I admire so hugely. Edward Ennenfall, thank you so, so much.

Thank you so much for having me. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently, it helps other people know that we exist.