How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, Ep3 How To Fail: Melanie Chisholm on mental health, self-worth and the Spice Girls

Episode Date: September 14, 2022

TW: eating disorders; suicide; sexual assaultI am so honoured to welcome my first ever Spice Girl to How To Fail! Today Melanie Chisholm - the artist formerly known as Mel C or even Sporty Spice - joins me in what is arguably her most open interview yet. She tells me about the impact of her parents' divorce, the extreme lengths of her people-pleasing as one of the most famous stars of the 1990s and her own struggles with her body. She talks bravely about the toxic impact of media attention on her weight, and how she developed an eating disorder. This led her into a very dark mental space where she felt dishonest about the image she was portraying to the outside world. Melanie also opens up about a sexual assault she endured while on tour in Turkey and her thoughts of suicide at her lowest points.And yet the extraordinary thing about Melanie is her resilience and her enduring gentleness. She is SO lovely, and we also have laugh-out-loud moments, including an unforgettable karaoke anecdote involving her and Baby Spice surprising some unsuspecting punters...What. A. Woman.--Who I Am by Melanie Chisholm is published on 15th September and is available to order here: https://www.waterstones.com/book/who-i-am/melanie-chisholm/9781802793598--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Melanie Chisholm @melaniecmusic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Okay, so today is a big day because, look, I've been lucky enough to interview Nobel Prize winners, Olympic athletes and peers of the realm on this podcast but never have i been as excited as right now when i get to welcome my first ever spice girl to how to fail my teenage years were punctuated by their hits from the monster number one hit wannabe right through to say you'll be there and holler it's no exaggeration to say that these five superstars who sold over 85 million records worldwide were responsible for shaping a specific part of my identity as a woman. So I am unbelievably honoured to welcome Melanie Chisholm, aka Sporty Spice, onto the podcast. But Chisholm is much more than just a Spice Girl. home is much more than just a Spice Girl. As a solo artist, she has achieved over 3 million album sales, two number one singles and six top 10 singles, including the, to my mind, modern classic

When You're Gone with Bryan Adams in 1998. And here's a fun fact. She has co-written 11 UK number ones, more than any other female artist in chart history and she remains the only female performer to top the charts as a solo artist as part of a duo quartet and quintet. It's all a long way from Kendall Drive Merseyside where Chisholm lived for the first years of her life with her parents Joan a secretary and Alan a fitter for a lift manufacturing company. When Chisom was four, her parents divorced and her life changed forever. In her new memoir, Who I Am, Chisom reveals that a large part of her drive and ambition came from wanting her parents to love her enough to get back together. I do think the turbulence of those formative years is a big part of my success, she writes.

of those formative years is a big part of my success, she writes. It's what made me so determined to succeed. It gave me a hunger for acceptance and attention. I wanted, needed people to notice me, to like me, to be entertained by me, impressed by me. I wanted to have a place of my own and to belong. Melanie Chisholm, I like you, notice you, need you, want you, and have been entertained by you all of my life. I cannot believe I get to say this. Welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much. What an incredible introduction. I really don't quite know how to follow that. Wow. Yeah, it's been a long and interesting road that I've been travelling on, still travelling on, and it felt like time to tell my story. So it's been an interesting, I think I've been working on this for about a year.

So we're kind of getting to the one of the scary bits. I found each step of the way quite scary and anxiety ridden, but yeah yeah about to be launched onto the world it really is a terrific read and you are so open in it and I'm just a huge believer that the idea of vulnerability is actually what connects us and it makes us stronger do you feel that writing this was cathartic for you in some way absolutely what. What excites me about the book is, you know, there are only five people on the planet who truly know what it is to be a Spice Girl, who had those experiences. And it's something extraordinary. But at the heart of it, we are ordinary people, you know, with ordinary issues and things to overcome and things that have gone on in our lives.

And I think some of the hardships that I faced as a human is so common. I'm really hoping that it's empowering for people to read. You can be in this unbelievable position, but still be dealing with these really difficult things. but still be dealing with these really difficult things so I think that was kind of the final little push that I needed to really have the courage to tell my story now that quote that I ended on that need to be liked and accepted I related so hard to that as a recovering people pleaser myself but your people pleasing went to extreme lengths, didn't it? And one of the things that you reveal in the book is an incident at the Brits in 1996, which was a very pivotal moment for you. Would you mind sharing that with us?

Yeah, I mean, it's something that happened. And at the time, I don't think I gave it the weight it probably deserved. and I spoke about it on Desert Island Discs a couple of years ago never heard of them I think it was like as I was telling the story because I obviously felt kind of ready to reveal this little moment that had happened you know quite a private personal moment within and behind the scenes of the Spice Girls. And I obviously felt like it was okay to share it. And as I was sharing it, I thought, wow, that really was a catalyst for something else. And we were invited to the Brits in 1996. We were signed to Virgin Records, but we hadn't released any music at this point.

So nobody, the wider public didn't really know who we were. There was, you know, some whispers and chatting going on within the music industry. So we went along and it was very exciting. And we were sitting with Lenny Kravitz and, you know, we've had a great table and we saw all this action. And of course, in the 90s, the Brits were super exciting because they were really rock and roll in those days. Not like today. Everything's much more tame. So we were there and, you know, having fun and watching the performances and the awards and drinking champagne. And as we were leaving, you know, we'd all had a little bit of champagne. We were all a little bit tipsy, probably quite drunk.

You know, we'd all had a little bit of champagne. We were all a little bit tipsy, probably quite drunk. And yeah, there was like a little falling out, a little incident. And it was nothing huge in my mind. You know, I told Victoria to F off as you know, as we all have these kerfuffles in our life. I think it was a little bit under my breath. It wasn't like an aggravated or aggressive thing that I did. But the next day, the girls told me in no uncertain terms that it was unacceptable. And then Simon Fuller, who was our manager at the time, wanted to speak to me. And I was threatened with being ousted from the band if any behavior like that happened again so of course we were beginning this incredible journey we were on our way and it meant everything to me the band which

it still does you know we're all so protective of the Spice Girls that it broke my heart and it really shook me in that wow I, I've done something without realising that could be so destructive. I've kind of lost control. And that was the moment when I really started to have issues with control. I needed to control myself, my behaviour, my weight, my behaviour, my weight, you know, the way I lived. And it became really unhealthy. We'll get on to all of that through the course of discussing your failures. But one of the things that struck me again, when I was reading your memoir was just how young you were, when you achieve this global level of fame. And there is that old saying, isn't there, that you get suspended in that age forevermore when you become famous at that age. And I don't think that

about you at all. You strike me as someone who is so rooted and evolved, and it feels like you've managed to grow with yourself through the years but how do you avoid that how do you avoid being stuck in that like how on earth did you cope with it at the age that you were it was tough you know and there were times when I didn't and we all had our issues to face you know this might be a little bit controversial but I think it's different for women than it is for men, often in that environment. And I think it's true. I think a lot of people in music, I think a lot of people in certain sports, being successful very young, being wealthy very young, having lots of people looking after you, taking care of things, sometimes people don't grow up as much as they need to. And I think

there's definitely aspects of me emotionally where I'm a little bit behind. I think it's really difficult. I think some of the reason I've been able to is becoming a mum. I think, you know, when you're a parent, you've got to grow up, right? You have this huge responsibility and you have to step up. I think some of it is because of the difficulties I've faced. I've had to do a lot of soul searching and I've had a lot of therapy. And I think all of those things have helped me to grow. For people who find themselves in that incredible position, it can be this detrimental effect. Like everything in life, there's good and there's bad in it.

be there's detrimental effects like everything in life there's good and there's bad in it and it's true isn't it that when the Spice Girls started out you were told oh well girl bands don't sell there's no appetite for that but you knew they were wrong didn't you we did we were so single-minded and when we started we didn't have this intention of screaming about girl power or being for girls or being these you know individuals and really shouting about that it was just the five of us being who we were and in a way that we experienced this sexism within the music industry so soon in our career was a blessing in disguise because it gave us a purpose it gave us something to for. And that's how the Spice Girls really became what we went on to do. So I'm going to ask you a question here, which is actually very self-indulgent of me, because I'm currently writing a book about

friendship. And for so many of us who have listened to the Spice Girls ever since you first started out, you as a girl band were not only the definition of girl power, but the definition of female friendship. Now, I know that you've known each other now for so many years. And I also know that friendships evolve over time. What for you do you think is the definition of female friendship? The way the Spice Girls friendships have evolved is you know with that maturity and knowing each other it's that acceptance you know the acceptance of each other's flaws you know the things that irritate us about each other and the respect of giving each other the space we need but also knowing if something happens to any of us and they are in need whether

it's of support or a bed for the night or whatever it may be we've got each other's backs and I think what's really interesting what we also found when we started out within the media and this still happens today they often try to pit women against each other, you know, all this rivalry, you know, girls are bitches and all of these things. And of course, all friendship groups, family dynamics, everybody has a different role, everybody has a different relationship with each other. But the Spice Girls, it's like a sisterhood. And I also feel like this with my female friends now, you know, we are all middle aged, you know, we're in a very different phase of our lives. Some of us are parents, some of us aren't, some of us are married, some of us aren't. And we have each other, no matter what. And I just don't think women are ever given the credit for the loyalty and support that they give each other. I love that. And do that they give each other.

I love that. And do you communicate with each other regularly still? Is there a WhatsApp group? Yeah, we do. There's several groups. We kind of laugh because we flirt between different platforms, you know, because we are, you know, we all admit now we're all getting a little bit old to keep up with the kids. I can't get Snapchat. I just can't get that. Me neither. to keep up with the kids. I can't get Snapchat. I just can't get that. But we're kind of in between iMessage and WhatsApp and we do. And a lot of things are sparked by whether it be birthdays, you know, there's so many Spice Kids, kids' birthdays, anniversaries, little Spice rumblings, you know, work things, you know, there's always something that we're we're having a little catch up on we're actually speaking I think the day after Victoria was filmed doing a karaoke

rendition of stop right now did you chat about that in the what's that group well I tell you what I put my little comment on Instagram because I'm like is she trying to tell us something um you know it's so wonderful I think the great thing now that I know I feel and I think we all do is that we really enjoy celebrating the Spice Girls you know I think when it happened in the 90s it was so intense and we were on this crazy ride and you know when things quietened down and Melanie and Victoria went off you know to have their children and Jerry had already left the band we needed space you know when things quietened down and Melanie and Victoria went off you know to have their children and Gerard already left the band we needed space you know we needed to go off and find out who we were as individuals and that was a good time for us to go off and grow but now

and in 2019 which I always reference because it's just one of my most cherished Spice Girl memories the stadium tour we did here in the UK in Ireland it just gave me that opportunity to go wow you know I'm not a Spice Girl sometimes I'm a Spice Girl all the time you know the same time that I'm a solo artist or I'm speaking on the radio or I'm cooking my daughter dinner it's's an always thing. And I just think we all really embrace our Spice Girls personas and history and legacy all of the time now. We're very, very proud. Do you ever perform your own numbers at karaoke?

Because I have to say that When You're Gone is one of my personal favorites. I can't sing, but I love that song so much. I bet you're better than you think everybody can sing I do have some funny karaoke stories because I had a birthday one year and it was one of my single years so I got a big gang of girls together including Emma and my sister and lots of friends and we had a lovely dinner in London and then then we went to Lucky Voice, which is a great karaoke bar. And you know, karaoke, it's so much fun, isn't it?

But Emma and I, it's a little bit dangerous because we do like to go into other people's booths and sing Spice Girls songs. Oh, my gosh. I would faint with pleasure if you did that. I mean, can you imagine a couple of quite drunk Spice Girls rocking up and singing wannabe uh so um yeah I mean I'd love to see the CCTV footage oh my god that's so brilliant that's made my day thank you um before I get on to your failures and you really have gone there with these and I'm so appreciative of the fact that you've made yourself so vulnerable because there's such beautiful things to discuss. But you're very open in your memoir and you talk about an incident in Istanbul with a massage that turned into a sexual assault. First of all, I'm very grateful to you for sharing that.

I think many women will relate to it. I had a similar experience and what I related to was the way that you said if something feels wrong then it it is you don't need to doubt yourself because I think many women and perhaps men do doubt themselves and they don't want to cause more conflict than it's worth yeah why was it important for you to write about that episode? What was weird about this part of the book is that it happened to me on the night before the first ever Spice Girls live performance. We were in Istanbul, we did two shows over there, and we'd never done a full length concert before. So

obviously we'd rehearsed for weeks ahead, costume fittings, makeup, hair, everything was leading towards the pinnacle of everything I'd ever wanted to do and ever wanted to be. You know, what drives me is being on stage, being a performer. So here we were, the eve of the first ever Spice Girl show. So I treat myself to a massage in the hotel. And what happened to me, I kind of buried immediately because there was other things to focus on. And, you know, I didn't want to make a fuss, but also I didn't have time to deal with it and because I didn't deal with it at the time I realised that I allowed that to be buried for years and years and years and then when I was writing the book it came to me in a dream or I

kind of woke up and it was in my mind and I was like oh my gosh I haven't even thought about having that in the book then of course I had to think well do I want to do I want to reveal this and I just thought actually it's I think it's really important for me to say it and to finally deal with it and process it and like you said for other people because you know terrible things happen all the time and this situation wasn't as bad as it could have been. I suppose in a version of sexual assault, it's a mild version, you know, but I felt violated, I felt very vulnerable, I felt embarrassed, you know, and then I felt unsure, have I got this right? I mean, what's going on? It was, you know, I was in an environment where you take your clothes off, you know, with this professional person. So there were so many thoughts and feelings. And I just thought, you know what,

I do want to talk about it because it has affected me. But, you know, I buried it. And I'm sure like you say, lots of men and women, lots of people do. I'm really proud of you for getting up and leaving because that's what you did my experience was shortly after the rise of the me too movement which was so long overdue and really made a lot of women I think recontextualize their past experiences I went on a yoga retreat and a yoga instructor did something very similar and it was just me and he'd asked me to stay back for like a one-on-one to help me with various poses and he ended up with me lying face down on the floor him straddling me and like pushing my shirt up to quote-unquote massage me in order to loosen my pelvis and I was really shocked at how much I froze in that moment because I thought, don't make a fuss.

It's not that bad. That's what my internal monologue was. And it sounds ludicrous to say it because like you've said, in the context of the awfulness of sexual assault, it was relatively mild. assault it was relatively mild but it made me understand why certain women because of a power dynamic find themselves in situations where they're frozen they can't get out of them they can't get out of those situations and then they question themselves rather than questioning the attacker or the assaulter yeah and it's that thing isn't it it's like what if I'm wrong yeah you know like this how people please to think everybody knows better than me what if I'm wrong I don't want to look stupid I don't want to be stupid yeah and it's like that is the thing you know as I've searched my soul as I've got older and tried to overcome so many things in that trust your

instinct yeah you know there's only one person on this planet who knows what is best for you. And that's you, who knows what is right for you. Even if it wasn't that person's intention, it made you feel that way. And you have to let them know, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's a really, really tricky one. But yeah, all power.

Get yourself out of that environment. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to look stupid because I'd rather look stupid than things have got any further yeah and I think it's so interesting what you say that you are the person who knows your instincts the best because I think for many people who for whatever reason their childhood whatever might have happened in their family dynamic it's like they haven't been parented in a way that they now need to parent themselves they haven't been parented to trust themselves and in a way that leads us on to your first failure and it's your parents divorce why did you choose this as your failure Melanie?

I chose this I know it sounds bizarre but as very young person, I felt like it was my fault. I felt like I had failed. Being a child, I didn't understand adult relationships, obviously. So the way my mind worked was, you know, my parents loved each other enough to have a child. But then I've turned up and it's not enough to keep them together. And of course, you know, we grow up, we have our own relationships, we start to understand that, but it's still something that affected me so much at that time, that it's a very strong part of who I went on to become because of those feelings. You know, feeling like I had to make something of myself I had to

make my existence I had to be worthy of this existence and just by living and just by being wasn't enough I had to be more than that because I'd failed that's crazy isn't it is it is this really young child like three years old three four years old is when this happened to me to feel like you've already failed in your purpose on this planet it's so that's so sad it's so heartbreaking and I can completely understand it starts so early that sense of understanding yourself as a human you can only do that when you understand your connections with other people and as young Melanie you're trying to make sense of your identity and the one unit you thought you could feel safe in has suddenly disbanded but I was so taken aback by the child

minder story will you tell us what happened there yeah so my mum is also a singer and she worked in offices but music is her passion she still continues to sing to this day and and when I was young you know she was still in her 20s and still pursuing this career in music and she had one particular job that was it was too far for her to travel to and from every day one summer and so she interviewed people and found a childminder for me. But the childminder was very young and had other ideas. So while my mum was away, she actually moved herself and her boyfriend into where we lived, the flat where we lived. And I went off and I was staying with her mum and friends and strangers, basically. And it's something, you know, again again this was such a bizarre thing while writing

the book because I knew about this you know it was something I grew up with little memories of and me and mum have talked about it since but it was my mum actually that kind of reminded me of this and we spoke about it a bit more and looking back back, it's like, wow, yeah, I'm kind of discovering all these new things that I didn't realise how much they must have affected me at the time. It's all kind of starting to make sense. You start putting all these little pieces of the jigsaw together and going, ah, OK, I get that now. That was tough. I'd sometimes come home and she wouldn't be there.

And I think I was only five. And, yeah, come home from school and there was nobody home. That was a tough time. And of course, my mum, you know, she was devastated because she was oblivious to this going on. I mean, it should be said that the 70s were a very different time. And, you know, parents probably did things that you wouldn't really get away with now. And I have no doubt whatsoever that your mother loves you tremendously. And as you say, was devastated. But there's this passage in the book where you talk about how you were locked out. And sorry, I found it so upsetting, Melanie, like, that you wet yourself and you had to be taken in by a

neighbour. Yeah, that's so tough yeah I you know it's again I think when we look back to our childhood it's just part of our childhood that's I think that's the beauty isn't it of being a child is your existence just is what it is you know and it's not until you're older and you start to examine it and you think that was tough that was tough yeah and I do have the memory of being taken in next door and being cleaned up and yeah I'm being looked after by this person that was a tough episode you know very difficult for my mum to talk about as well you know that must have been awful to recount that. Do you think that feeling of powerlessness stayed with you for a long time?

that feeling of powerlessness stayed with you for a long time? I'm really intrigued, probably now more than ever, because I have delved into my whole life, because I am a people pleaser. You know, I'm like you, recovering. I'm in recovery. And, you know, why? What is that? What is that? You know, putting other people before yourselves. Why do you do that? Why do do I have to keep the peace why am I destroyed and distraught if I upset somebody that's like my worst nightmare is upsetting somebody unintentionally upsetting somebody and it's like it's okay you didn't mean it it's okay I feel sick if I do that do you think it comes from a fear of abandonment like if you say or do the wrong thing then your parents will divorce or the band will break up and it'll be your fault do you think that's what it is yeah I do I you know I have these recurring dreams

now always I've had these recurring dreams of being out of control. I hardly drink anymore. It just, you know, it doesn't work for me. But I have dreams of being completely off my head and driving a car, driving with my daughter in the car, you know, there's these acts of, you know, just pure irresponsibility. And, you know, and I wake up in a cold sweat and it's like, having done something but I have no recollection of it it's it's this thing that kind of haunts me that's fascinating because I used to have a recurring dream also about driving but my dream was when I was a kid I would be left in the back of the car and my mother would park the car and go into the post office or something and then the car would start moving because the handbrake had me left on and I was in the back and I would panic and I would wake up in a cold sweat really panicked and I had this dream so

often that I gradually learned how to drive the car in the dream so whatever was I love dreams I mean this is fascinating fascinating because you know I'm going to turn psychologist now yeah because I kind of feel like that's you maybe you feel like you were being taken in the right direction so you took control you know that could be it you know you have the personal psychology of that's amazing I totally agree and I was like I felt really proud of my dream self for teaching herself how to drive sometimes I dream I can play the piano and I wake up and go I'd love to be able to play the piano but at least you can sing gosh you can sing I'd love to be able to sing as well those are my two things I would love Peyton it's happening we're finally being recognized for being very online.

It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago,

these words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. So how's your relationship with your mum and dad now? Have they read the book? Oh gosh, that was... That must have been terrifying for someone so scared of upsetting people. Oh my gosh. Oh yeah, I mean the anxiety around this book, there's been a lot of it. I've seesawed between I've got to do it. It's a really good thing to do. I must do it too. What am I doing? I can't do this.

No. And one of those phases was when it went to mum and dad. And I've always had a great relationship with both my mum and dad. I've always had a great relationship with both my mum and dad I've always felt very close to them and yeah I adore them both and I know that I'm very loved they've both remarried they both have families with their new I say new partners they've been married for like 30 years but no we've always been close I have a huge complicated family but sometimes I do feel alone in the world because I'm the only one of both parents you know it was tough it was tough I had to just talk to them because I I haven't revealed anything they didn't already know but my dad didn't know about turkey but I think what you do reveal is the thoughts and feelings of your child self yeah which you don't share that with

your parents so I think it's a tough read for them yeah it's so interesting that we don't share that with our parents because you'd think well that's the number one thing that they would know but obviously they only have their own perception of it and I actually think that it's such a brave and generous thing for you to do because it will end up making you so much closer because then there's this bedrock of honesty to your relationship now yeah do you know what that's so true I feel like I was so scared for them both to read it and I gave them some little you know pages to warn them about this and warn them about that and make sure you're cool with that I don't want to upset anybody and different things.

And, you know, they both come back to me saying it was hard and that we had beautiful conversations as well afterwards. So, yeah, you're right. I think sometimes I feel like a coward. You know, I haven't always spoken up for myself. And in doing this, you can realise that courage can really pay off. So, yeah, I'm really grateful that my mum and dad have been generous enough to allow me to do it. Because one of the other things that I talk about in the book is, you know, fame is a very interesting thing. And fame just doesn't happen to you.

It happens to everybody around you, which includes your parents. Yeah, that was a tough decision to make to really be that honest in this book and how did your fame affect them because I know it affected your brother Paul who we all know and love from Gogglebox now but tell us a bit about the impact on the wider family because I hadn't really sort of thought about that before that it does have a really big impact yeah it really it really does. I mean, obviously, I think the first thing is the concern for you, you know, the child being written about. And, you know, we all know that certain areas of the media can be pretty brutal, especially in the 90s. So that was tough. And then I think it's just how you're treated. And you not only treat the famous person differently, but your parents and your siblings and your friends and everybody gets treated differently this thing she's loaded you must be loaded you

know why do you drive that car why do you live in that house and I think those things are difficult especially when you're young you know my brother was I think he was 17 16 17 when it happened he was at college and he was bullied basically at school and just couldn't hack it and it really got him down because it's just that attention as well, isn't it? You want to be yourself. You know, this is the thing, I think, with my brother and I think with my daughter, you know, I think being the child of a famous person also can be difficult. You know, I think you can often be in their shadow. And I think that's quite a difficult place to be unless you're equipped. feel like my daughter's equipped she's so headstrong and amazing that I'm sure she's going to be okay but

there's a lot of eye rolling that goes on when people want to meet me like her friends want to meet me for all the wrong reasons yeah because the 90s are back in such a big way I mean I'm thrilled I walk into Urban Outfitters now and I'm like walking into my 16 year old self. But how do people respond to you when they see you on the street? What's the number one thing that people say to you after, can I have a selfie? Do you know, it's incredible because people say the most beautiful things. And from the 90s to this day, I'd say I've had maybe one or two like someone shouting something horrible or something negative but most people are so lovely and they talk about how the music affected them how the Spice Girls had such a positive effect on their lives and you know the fun they had with

their friends and dressing up and it's always really really lovely stories I mean some stories obviously we have such a great following in the LGBTQ plus community and we have so many fans that talk about the Spice Girls giving them somewhere to belong and giving them the courage to come out to their family and friends and it it, you know, it just blows our minds. And I think the shows in 2019 were just a celebration of that really finally realising the impact we'd had on this generation. So before I get on to your second failure, would you describe yourself as an extrovert or an introvert? Probably a bit of both. I think a lot of performers are like this because I'm shy. Every day, social situations, I can be quite quiet. I don't really like people looking at me.

Oops. When I'm on stage, it's like everyone look at me. Everyone listen to me. You know, I want to entertain you. So it's this crazy split personality I think a lot of performers have. Do you get nervous when you go on stage or not because you just feel like you're in your element? Always always get nervous I get nervous for everything I ever do I do believe that is because you care and you want to do a good job and I've tried to learn over the years to use those nerves in a positive way to enhance your performance sometimes they get the better of you I think all performers constantly learning constantly growing it's just like being a person you think I have seen it all I've had anything and everything that could go wrong has gone wrong on stage off stage and then

the next thing you know something else happens that you've never experienced before so you know it never ends such is the beauty of life right I just feel we're so similar apart from the fact that you're a global megastar and a former spice girl that idea that mixture of introversion extroversion constantly feeling nervous before doing anything I totally get it yeah sometimes I do things because I sign up for things and I go, why do I do this to myself? Now, I hate that. I hate that feeling, especially if I do something for the first time. I started DJing, I think it was about three, three to four years ago. And, you know, as a DJ, I can't like sneak in and work my way up the ranks.

You know, you've got a Spice Girl. She's DJing somewhere. Everybody's watching. All eyes are on you. And to do something so technical, which was so new to me at the time, was petrifying. But I did it. And I loved it. And I think unless you take those steps, unless you take the plunge, you just never know. I think that's where we need to be. That's the shift I'd like to see with people is that it is

okay to fail you know totally what this podcast is all about because more often than not in my life the things that have scared me the most have gone on to give me the most pleasure oh and I love that do you know what I mean like something like DJing it's like oh my god I could have made a massive arse of myself you know I still could but I didn't and I just discovered this passion that I adore my dad once said to me something along the lines of there's always a risk involved in life but the greater risk is not taking the opportunity the greater risk is never having the adventure like that's the scary thing not the thing itself but it's the old adage isn't

it when you know when on your deathbed you just regret the things you didn't do right but I noticed that you've got a peloton in the background and I have a peloton too and I absolutely bloody love it and I'm so lucky and blessed to have one okay so I know that one of the things that the instructors say is progress not perfection and I completely agree with that and I'm all about embracing failure but I get so competitive over my numbers are you like that I can be I've had moments where I can and have but yeah I've you know obviously exercise is such a huge part of my life and I'm very competitive and probably more competitive with myself than other people but if there's an older dude in front of me I'm like I'm gonna get that guy I think it's good for motivation to have a bit of that sometimes but I've learned over the years I

have to just listen to my body because it's it's not what it was you know you look fantastic but we'll get on to all of that your second failure is the failure of your relationship with your daughter's dad tell us why you chose this one well I thought it was important to have this one as the second failure because the hardest thing for me to deal with that situation was that I was repeating history. And I never wanted for my daughter what had happened to me as a child. I longed for this family unit, mum, dad, child, maybe go on to have other children. And the relationship was good for many, many years. You know, we were so happy. We had this beautiful daughter. But like all relationships, it had its challenges.

And it got to the point where I didn't feel like anybody was happy within it. Myself, him and Scarlett was being affected. And it was so difficult to come to that conclusion that it had to end. And it did feel like a huge failure. I'd failed. I'd failed in this mission that I had to meet someone to not only give my daughter stability, but myself, the stability in the family that I craved so much it was hard I think it was hard coming to that decision but then once I've made the decision I felt so liberated and proud of myself and my daughter has been such a teacher to me she's almost taught me to be better to myself I was in this situation and I wasn't happy

and I didn't want her to think that that's what a happy loving relationship was that in order to do the right thing by her I was doing the right thing by myself you know I think children do that to you don't they they kind of they make you realize that you have to do the best for them whereas sometimes you'd put up with stuff you shouldn't anyway so it just gave me that courage and power to do the thing I needed to do and looking back on that breakup now what do you think it taught you I mean have you ever regretted it? Gosh, I always feel so conscious for the other person. No, I've never regretted a single minute, a single second.

As soon as I said it, I mean, I think I sat in it for longer than I should have. But, you know, I'm a true believer in things happen when they're meant to happen. You know, I couldn't deal with it until the time was right you know absolutely no regrets I think we've all gone on to be happier and you know in learning about my parents relationship they've both gone on to be remarried and be happily married for like I say 30 years you know over 30 years So I've come to this point in my life now where I truly believe that life is chapters. And of course, there are soulmates that meet. Some people meet as teenagers and they live through to their elderly together. They grow old together. Some people have that beautiful experience, but I don't think that that's the norm. I think the norm is there's people who are right for you at that time and as hard and as sad it can be sometimes you have to move on and then it's it's a different life.

Doing the research for this interview I was struck by something I'd completely forgotten at the time about and we'll talk more about the tabloid press and the toxicity of the 90s media landscape in a bit but I'd totally forgotten how you were so often labelled the single one in the Spice Girls and I wanted to know what that was like for you. It was awful it was really awful because I already had such low self-esteem and there was a real narrative around all of us I think anyone in the public eye this narrative this person is created I think that was one of the hardest things for me to deal with with my relationship with the media because I'd read about this person and it was a stranger to me and so it it's very confusing. I think when you were, I was in my early 20s

and I was like, who am I? Am I who I think I am? Am I who they say I am? And who am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be that person? It was a massive head fuck. And I was very lonely. There was times where I was the only girl

in the band who was single. Gerry had long periods of times without a relationship as well, but I felt very, very alone. And I just felt like the narrative that was built around me within the media was that I was this sad, unlovable, undateable. You know, they criticised the way I way I looked they criticized the way I behaved they questioned my sexuality I mean it was relentless so that was very damaging for me and would you read all of that about yourself or would you go through patches of trying not to I think it's really hard to not read about yourself back in the day obviously we didn't have social media thank god I feel very grateful for that but I remember I'd go to the gym in the mornings and the first thing

I'd do would be go to the newsstand and I'd check out you know the bizarre column and a certain newspaper and you know the all of the kind of showbiz columns in all of the tabloids to see what they'd said you know see what they were saying about me because it's almost like there was this like compulsion to know what people were saying it's like well at least if I know I don't want to not know stuff you know if people are talking about me I want to know what they're saying and then they're not saying anything and then that's got another set of issues with it's like why aren't they talking about me you know it's does nobody care it's really really unhealthy and could you talk to the other women in the band about it we had a support for each other you know we were so young I think I talk about this in the

book I definitely talk about this in the book where we had all of our insecurities but we weren't really emotionally equipped to deal with not only our own issues but each other's you know we were there to support each other and you know when we'd bitch and moan and that made us feel better for a minute but I just think when you're that young you're not really emotionally developed enough or capable you know especially being flung into this whole new world that all of you were just like trying to find your way in so yeah that was tough. And, you know, the great thing about the Spice Girls that really saved us is that we were individuals and we were very different.

So we were never really competitive with each other. You know, we all had our own lane. But still, you know, we were all ambitious. We all wanted to be famous and we all wanted to be adored. So if certain girls are getting more attention than others that's quite hard to deal with there were so many underlying feelings and emotions going on that you're having to either quiet or deal with yourself or try not to react or act upon so it's a lot to deal with as a young person especially I think I so feel for you going

through that because talking to you now and having read your beautiful words you are such an eminently lovable person but it sounds like you felt so unlovable at the height of this fame and seeming adoration yeah and I think we're going to get on to the other failure but I was so obsessed with making myself what I deemed to be perfect to be worthy not only of this life on this planet but to be in this band and to have this success that there I was doing everything within my power to make myself perfect. And that still wasn't good enough. So that was really tough to deal with.

Let's, as you say, move on to your third failure, because it's a big one. And I want to give it the space that it deserves. And it taps into so much of what we've been talking about. And it's, as you put it, an eating disorder. And it's, as you put it, an eating disorder. So if you don't mind, please, could you share with us the story of that and how it came about? Well, I'd been active throughout my life, throughout my childhood. I went to performing arts college when I was 16, which was predominantly dancing and mostly classical ballet so obviously body image is a big deal in that world like everything within our culture things have evolved slightly but you know

the dancing world is brutal and back then even more so so we were body shamed at college you know we were told in front of the whole class if we needed to lose a few pounds. And I had friends, I had people very close to me that struggled with their eating, but it never affected me. Like I think lots of young people, you know, I maybe gained a little bit of weight in my later teens. I was away from home. I wasn't eating mum's home cooked food. I was discovered the pub. And if I needed to lose a bit of weight I just cut down a little bit, you know, I kind of felt like that was a normal and healthy attitude towards health and food and body image. It wasn't until I was in the band and I think the stakes were raised and I had this idea of what I had to be to be in this band, to be a pop star, that I started eliminating food groups, being very restrictive with my eating alongside doing more and more exercise to the point of it becoming extremely obsessive.

And that went on for years. I mean, that went on throughout that bulk of that time, you know, the 90s, 96, 97, 98. I wasn't eating enough. I lost so much weight. I did become anorexic, and my period stopped. I always wanted to be a mum, and here I was was unable to control this thing that could have jeopardized my fertility but it was such a compulsion I couldn't stop it. And can I ask you a bit about what was going on around this so there's an incident in the book involving a man called Chick Murphy, who's the financial backer to your then managers. Tell us what happened there. So it was really early days before Spice Girls fully formed into what everybody knows today.

We were with our original management who put us together and Chick was the financial backer. We were in his back garden. He had a lovely house. were in his back garden he had a lovely house and we were talking about routines and what experience we had and the different things we'd done and the gymnastics came up and I did a round off back for him was like oh he could incorporate that into something and he made a comment about the size of my thighs in front of the other girls and I was mortified I'm not going to pinpoint that particular thing as what caused everything, but it was kind of the beginning of a thought process. I knew I had to lose weight. I started to question my eating habits, my exercise habits. And that was the first time I started to really start cutting down, going to the gym, going out running.

And it just kind of became more and more obviously exacerbated with being written about, being photographed constantly. And yeah, it got to the point where it made me incredibly sick. Let's talk about that toxic media landscape of the 1990s which is such a weird period of time to have lived through I feel like a lot of us from that era almost have a sort of shell shock where it's taken us until now to look back and to be able to point our fingers and go no that wasn't right it was a culture of circling women's cellulite in magazine centrefolds, picking over bodies as if that was our due. It was also a culture of tabloid phone hacking. And I know you can't say much about that because you're involved in ongoing legal proceedings because your phone was hacked.

What kind of things can you recall being written about you? It's so interesting because with the case that I'm involved with at the moment, one of the things I had to do was go back over every single article from the 90s and noughties that was written about me. And it was incredible to see how they attacked us, you know, how they attacked women at the time. When I talk about this, I always say, you know, things have improved, but not that much. You know, I think now it's all a little bit more read between the lines. Back then, it was very much, the language they used was shocking. I was underweight for a long time they would run polls like who's the sexiest vice girl you know who's the hottest vice girl so of course whenever there's a best there's a worst and that's really hard to take for anyone anybody would find that

difficult to deal with they really began to criticize me. They really began to criticise me when I really began to have my issues. I mean, the issues were ongoing throughout the 90s, but I was anorexic for a period of time. And then my body, I feel very grateful for because it said to me, no more, you're not controlling us anymore. We need food. We are so undernourished. But unfortunately, along with that, I developed binge eating disorder. So of course, eating more and eating in that way, I started to gain weight very quickly. And they commented on that. And I think I was about a size, I was either a size 12 or 14 when they labeled me sumo spice, which is like, you know, we can laugh because it's kind of

ridiculous, but I'd already, and before I was ready, because we lived in this world with so many things were being revealed, us not knowing how, how do they have this information? There were so many things being written about us, and we felt so owned by the media. You know, I think as a young person in the media at that time, you felt like, well, you asked for this. You wanted to be famous. Well, this is what comes with it. This is what you have to do. And so often I'd be so uncomfortable in interviews, but I felt like it was my duty to bear my soul and to tell these things. So I was incredibly vulnerable. I was incredibly ill. I was literally

on my very, very first steps to recovery from depression, anxiety, eating disorders. And they were calling me these things, you know, and I was opening up about depression, which this was in 2000. And sadly, back then, nobody really talked about it. It wasn't something that was often discussed. You know, I mean, thank goodness, I'm very proud that I did. And I had the opportunity to now, but then I wasn't ready. I wasn't ready to do that. And I'd done that. And even though I told them and they knew, because I had to give them an excuse. I had to let everybody know why I looked like this.

It was a cry for help. I was tormented. And they still went on to criticize the way that I looked. It's just disgusting, isn't it? It's so cruel. They continue to do it today. I mean, you cannot go on all the favorite website we all go on we're all guilty of it and the people are flaunting this

and the washboard abs this and the ample assets that and it fucking makes me furious and you know what really drives me more mad than anything is that sometimes I look at these articles and they're written by women I'm sure they're edited by men and I just think our media needs a shake-up the way that we've come so far all of the wonderful things that women have gone on to do you know in so many areas but in the media just look down that sidebar so many people in bikinis on holidays flaunting they're not flaunting they're on holiday they're on a beach in swimwear it drives me mad sorry that's not wrong no I'm here for it I'm here for it and I wonder if you because you were kind of contemporaneous with Britney Spears say or Princess Diana and

recently lots of documentaries have come out re-analyzing and re-contextualizing what those high-profile women were put through do you feel like you could understand the things that have happened to Britney Spears like have you I don't know what the question is really it's basically about Britney like you know obviously there are two super extreme examples I've had a tiny snapshot into the things that they've experienced but yet there are moments where it's petrifying you're a rabbit in the headlights you're pursued I remember once I I slipped up on a TV show so I was really struggling when we wrote the third Spice Girls album Forever and I was on Frank Skinner's show and I talked about Spice Girls in the past tense or when I was in the Spice Girls there was some kind of slip up slip of the tongue

and the media jumped on it immediately and the next morning when I woke up there was camera crews outside where I live and I was struggling with anxiety at the time as when I woke up there was camera crews outside where I live and I was struggling with anxiety at the time as well I was on quite a lot of medication and I drove just down the street from me and I was being pursued by paparazzi and I actually hit another car it was a minor scrape but you know I learned from that that never let them get the best of you I mean they scarpered obviously because there'd been an incident. But it's just like, you know, will we know what these things can lead to? Yeah.

What do you think was your lowest point mental health wise? Can you remember it? Yeah, I mean, it kind of, I want to say danced, it kind of danced around between 2000, 2001, probably. Those two years were the toughest years. I started having therapy and taking antidepressants early 2000. So for about 18 months, you know, this is the thing I found in my life. And I know lots of people swear by antidepressants and there've been times when they've been such a saviour to me. But it took me ages to find the right ones.

And I feel so lucky that I was in a position where, you know, I had a private GP. So I had the opportunity to try different things. And, you know, he had time to deal with me. I know on the NHS, it's very, very different. But just for any people out there, you know, if one antidepressant doesn't work for you, then there are different kinds. And yeah, like I say, it took me to the third kind. And it's hard because you wean off one set and you start the new set and then they don't really kick in for a few weeks. And it's this process and it's really really hard I just felt awful all of the time and then I got

to the point where I felt okay sometimes and then I got to a point where I started to feel okay more than I didn't feel okay and that was just kind of my little journey through it. And even now in, where are we, 2022, I live with depression. You know, it's there. I've learned very much how to deal with it and cope with it and keep it at bay. But sometimes it can get the better of me. So I think it's really important to learn what works for you. I think everybody can just have different little tools in the kit to get them through. You write in the book that during this period of time, I struggled most nights to get to sleep. This one recurring thought would go round and round in my mind. It would be a lot easier if I didn't wake up tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. I like to think I've never felt suicidal. This is another thing we speak about much more openly now. And I'm so grateful that we do. But I have wished to not wake up, which is awful, which is an awful, awful place to be. And I think lots of people get to those depths.

be and I think lots of people get to those depths. I feel very, very grateful that there was just always, sometimes it felt like my spark had gone out but most of the time it's there, you know, there's a little flicker even in my darkest moments and it's pulled me through. What would you say to someone who is feeling that right now? I'd say reach out, don't be alone and I remember feeling like a burden. I think a lot of us when we feel depressed we want to be isolated and there's a time and there's a place for that I think you know we need time with our own thoughts and feelings but I would say it's so important to speak. And, you know, I used to hate, I don't want my mum to worry, you know, I don't want my friends to feel like,

oh God, here she is again, and not wanting to pick up the phone. But reach out if it's not a friend, if it's not family, there are so many resources online now as well. You know, there are so many incredible charities and phone lines and Samaritans are amazing. And just saying things out loud is so healing and you know what there's like I think probably more people feel these feelings than the people who don't you're not alone I think that's

what I want for this book more than anything oh well I'm getting upset it's for people to just realize that they're not alone you know because it's such a lonely place depression you feel like the worst person on the planet like you don't deserve to be here and that's just bollocks you know because we all deserve to be here and people care and people want to help sometimes they don't know how to but just give them the opportunity to try you know I wish I could hug you I just think you're such an angel it's so beautiful thank you so much for talking about that for allowing me to ask you about that I wanted to ask you whether you felt during this time there was this disconnect between what you were meant to be embodying as a spice girl this kind of female confidence everyone's invited and what you were actually

feeling as Melanie Chisholm yeah the guilt attached to that it's taken me years to come to terms with that because here I was sporty spice strong, strong, be who you are, you know, be an individual. And I was living a lie. I had no self-esteem. I wasn't eating properly. I was obsessively exercising. I really am such an honest person, like to a fault, like I can't bear to not be completely and utterly honest. That was hard. That was really hard. And I felt very, very guilty about that for a very long time. And I hate to think that I've caused damage because of the image that I was representing.

So I suppose part of me being so open about this now is that I can do some good. Oh my gosh, you've done so much more good than anything else. And, you know, I definitely still remember you know and I think for all of the guilt that I've held because of that moment in time and I was struggling and in my eyes I failed I failed myself I failed the public but I got through it I got through the other side and I think that's what my story is today. My story is that I did succumb to these things, you know, and I felt ashamed for that. But the thing I feel very proud of is that I overcame

all of those things. And here I am now sharing that with people, hopefully that it can have a really positive effect and help others. Before we move on, how do you deal with these issues today? How do you look after yourself, your mental health, your body, your nourishment? I had to learn what worked for me. And I discovered lots of great things. Exercise, but obviously a healthy amount of exercise, is so good for your head as well as your body we all talk about this now and there are so many great things you can do you know I love the gym I'm a freak like that I know not everybody likes that environment it can be quite intimidating to people but there's so many classes you can do so many people I love this like everyone's like open

water swimming now there's lots of people starting these different things. There's classes, you can walk, people walking their dogs. I mean, it's just get out there. Nature, as we know, through the pandemic, we've all really reconnected with these things that help us. Eating well. We all know so much more about nutrition than we used to. Cost of living is astronomical.

If we have the time, just whole foods, cook for the family. There's so much you get out of that as well emotionally as the nourishment that you get. For me, I do like to have a drink with my friends, but I can't drink too much. I know I can't drink too much because it just makes me feel like shit. And if there are times if I feel a little bit down, my mental health is suffering a little, then I just eliminate it. You know, I just, that could wait for another day. And sleep, trying to get the sleep, which can be hard, you know, at certain times in your life, sleep's hard. So yeah, it's just, it's all the things we know, I think. You know, it's taking care of yourself know I think you know it's taking care of yourself I think there's such a funny attitude isn't there you know a lot of young people it's like oh yeah

eating whether it's junk food or drinking you know I'm from a binge drinking culture drink until you fall over all of these things but it's not good for you you know it's fun at the time so I just think balance this constant quest for balance which is a work in progress but yeah I just kind of tighten up the self-care if I need a bit more stability you check in with yourself I think that's really wise advice right I want to draw this to a close by asking you a question which might be impossible to answer because it's a hypothetical if you were offered this same life again would you choose the fame or not that is the question that is the question do you know what I wouldn't change it I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it. That makes me so happy to hear. I'm so relieved. Honestly, and it is so weird because I feel like, you know, when I talk about the really tough times,

I think I wish I'd done that differently. We all have that, don't we? I wish I'd handled that differently. But if I had to do it all again, the same way, I would, because I love my life. I was on stage on Friday I did a show and it absolutely pissed down it was torrential rain and I got soaked and the audience got soaked but I just felt so lucky to be on that stage doing what I love and you know that's the upshot of everything is that I've achieved my childhood ambition and dream and I'm still doing it so yeah I wouldn't change it we're so grateful for the wonder that is you I'm so grateful I still feel like I'm hallucinating I can't believe I can't believe I've got to meet you through a screen

and interview you it's been one of the honors of my life thank you so much for being such a brave vulnerable soul and your work helps so many people in ways that you will never fully be able to know but thank you so much Melanie for coming on how to thank you so much and it's yeah it's it's a scary business putting your whole life out there but I'm getting some really positive feedback and today has been wonderful so thank you so much if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with Elizabeth Day I would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist