How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S15, Ep9 How To Fail: Greta Thunberg on activism, friendship and failing to be a 'normal' teenager

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

I'll be honest. I was intimidated by the prospect of this interview. Plus, I never believed it would *actually* happen. I was going to get to speak to arguably the most famous activist on the planet? Yeah, right. As if.But then - it happened! And Greta Thunberg - the founder of the School Strike for Climate movement who has been nominated three times for a Nobel Prize - was an absolute revelation. She is a deeply intelligent and thoughtful 19-year-old: someone who takes issues seriously but never herself. I laughed SO MUCH more than I thought I would during this conversation. And I learned a lot too - about the climate crisis, yes, but also about what drives this extraordinary young woman and what she thinks of 'failure' on a personal and a global level. We talk about her failure to be a 'normal' teenager, her failure to get politicians to act and how she copes with being trolled by Presidents. Plus what she *really* thinks of everyone from King Charles to Emmanuel Macron. And: her love of carrots.Whatever your preconceptions might be, leave them at the door. This episode will blow your mind.--The Climate Book, created by Greta Thunberg, is out tomorrow and available to order here: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/446610/the-climate-book-by-thunberg-greta/9780241547472--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpod Greta Thunberg @gretathunberg Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. In August 2018, a 15-year-old Swedish schoolgirl started a one-person protest outside the Stockholm Parliament building. She sat on the ground next to a handwritten sign that said, school strike for climate. At first, it was a lonely enterprise. People would walk past and ignore her. Some would stop to tell her she should be at school. But after a few weeks, more young people started to take notice. Her fundamental message was clear. The climate crisis is humanity's greatest existential threat and we need to take action now. Within months, student protests inspired by her were taking place across the world. In 2019, she sailed by yacht to North

America in order to avoid carbon intensive flying. There she addressed the United Nations Climate Action Summit with the words, you are failing us, but the young people are starting to understand your betrayal. The eyes of all future generations are upon you. And if you choose to fail us, I say, we will never forgive you. On the 20th of September, 2019,

4 million people joined a school strike across 161 countries, the largest climate demonstration in history. Today, Greta Thunberg is a global icon, an inspiration to millions, and still only 19. She's been nominated three times for the Nobel Peace Prize. She has addressed the World Economic Forum, the US Congress, and been thanked by the Pope. A species of beetle has been named after her, its long antennae bearing a resemblance to her famous braided pigtails. And yet, despite her extraordinary and selfless activism, the climate and ecological crisis remains the greatest threat humanity has ever faced. What then does Greta Thunberg think about our failure, both moral and political,

and how does she live with it in her own life? I am deeply honoured that today I get the chance to ask her. Greta Thunberg, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you very, very much. I am very honoured to be here. It is a total joy to have you. I don't know if you saw that, that my cat joined in that introduction. I did see, it was lovely. I think he knew spiritually that I was speaking to you today. And I think he wanted to say thank you too. Thank you for having the cause of all beings, animals and humans at the heart of everything that you do. And I wanted to talk to you, first of all, about what you think failure is, because you have a specific and very

interesting perspective on it. What for you is failure? I don't know, actually. It really depends. Mostly failures are something that we can learn from. But today, as humanity is failing when it comes to many issues like the climate and ecological crisis, of course, that failure will mean a complete disaster for present and very much future generations. I usually say that we are failing, but we have not yet failed. We are moving in the wrong direction, but it's still not too late to turn around. And part of the reason we're speaking is because you have created this fantastic book, The Climate Book, which is this incredibly

accessible, scientifically underpinned encyclopedia of climate change it tells us what's happened where we're at what we can do and at the end of it you say about failure that we need to start by admitting it as a world as people as politicians we need to first admit our failure do you think we're in a state of denial i do definitely think that we are in a state of denial that is my dog in the background state of denial that is my dog in the background they all want to join in i understand yeah i do think that we are in a state of denial when it comes to to our for example politicians or any people in power whenever they get the chance to talk about the climate crisis or any crisis like the sustainability crisis they always say that yeah we are maybe not doing enough, but at least we are trying and we are moving in the right direction. We are getting people along. We're moving slowly. And by doing that, they are completely denying the fact that we are rushing, speeding in the

wrong direction. The emissions are still rising on a global level. And by ignoring that fact, by pretending that we can solve this crisis within a system that got us into it in the first place, that means that we are denying the crisis. I watched your documentary, I Am Greta, in preparation for this interview. I found it a very, very beautiful thing to watch. And I also found it unbelievably emotional. I was bawling my eyes out. And part of the reason I think is because there was this total purity and clarity to what you were doing and are doing in comparison to a lot of predominantly old white men who claim to be listening listening but weren't really. How do you live with the crushing weight of that responsibility and sort of what must be at times a very, or must have been a very lonely journey?

Yeah, I mean, I am not alone in this fight. We are many, many people who are fighting for this every day. Many, many people in the climate movement who are on the same page as I am. So thankfully, I'm not alone. Sometimes it does feel quite overwhelming that we as teenagers and as young people and as children, in many cases, have been left with this burden to try to solve. It feels like people in power and many adults are just leaving this to us. They are just continuing to sweeping things under the carpet, ignoring, because as you said, they do not want to admit their failure. And because they just want to continue like now for a few more years. And then there are many people who are not aware, of course. But it does feel like we are being

handed this burden that we do not want to be handed. Do you ever feel intimidated or nervous when you get up to give these extraordinary speeches that come directly from your heart? Do you ever get scared? I do not. Maybe in the beginning a bit, but that very quickly disappeared. I am very lucky to not have stage fright. And do you find it easy to write speeches because your speeches are amazing? I do find it quite easy most of the time and sometimes I'm very tired because I have to do this all the time and I do not have any spare time so then I just have to sit down and write very intensely and then what comes out is mostly emotions and my feelings but then it also becomes more real because I'm just saying exactly how I'm feeling but yeah it does come quite easily and when you have written a certain amount of speeches

you sort of get the hang of it well it's a real gift your gift for communication I want to ask you about the yacht trip to New York because when I read about it, in my ignorance, I had imagined a very nice yacht, maybe with a jacuzzi and some staff serving you dinner. And then I saw the reality on the documentary. And I'm sorry, Greta, that looked awful. Like such a struggle for two weeks. What was that like? What was it like? It was very, was very very fun actually I loved it also especially you have to bear in mind that I was going into that after having spent months and months non-stop both traveling but also working being around in all this this media presence and everyone just pushing me and going to that from that those are complete

opposites so it was very very nice to just be completely almost I mean completely without anyone wanting me to do stuff just sitting there watch the oceans just doing nothing in the silence it was very nice did you get seasick I did not I was very lucky to not be seasick, because otherwise it would have been a completely different trip. Did you miss your dogs? I did, yes. Tell us your dogs' names for anyone who isn't a Greta Stan like I am. I have two dogs. They are right next to me right now. I can see them. One is Roxy. She's a black Labrador. And the other one is Moses. He's a white golden retriever.

Do you feel your dogs understand you in a way that a lot of humans don't? At least I used to. Before I became an activist full time, and before I started getting so many friends in the climate movement, I definitely felt like these dogs are the only ones to understand me. These dogs are the only ones to understand me. These dogs are the only ones who aren't denying the crisis, even though they couldn't do anything about it. But it was just like, at least they aren't a part of this system that is destroying so much.

Yes. When did you first become aware of the crisis of climate change? of the crisis of climate change? I think I was around seven or eight years old. It was in school. Just like the usual stuff, the planet is warming because of humans, greenhouse gases, that it's creating more extreme weather events.

So then I was like, if this is such a serious issue as they are saying it is, we should be paying more attention. We should be more concerned. So I couldn't see how that fit in maybe you could say I was a bit of a climate denier in one sense because I didn't believe it was happening because if it was it would be our top priority at least among our top priorities but everyone just ignored it and you you got depressed, didn't you, at that age? Yeah. A few years later, I started to search up more about what it actually meant. And then I just felt so bad seeing everything that was not happening, that people were just continuing with their everyday life.

I couldn't understand how people could just do that in an existential threat like this. That made me really sad. Your parents have written and spoken very movingly about how terrifying that was for them, that you stopped eating, that you got quieter and quieter. What was it that enabled you to survive that period? What got you out of it? In the beginning, my parents were just like,

what is happening? You need to improve and you need to because otherwise you're not going to make it out of this. But then after a while, they started to listen to what I was actually saying and they started to listen to my concerns. And then I felt like someone was listening at least. And then they started to make these small changes like turn off the lights when we were not using them and starting to eat more vegetarian and stuff and even if it was just really really small that didn't make a big difference it made a difference for me because that made me feel like I had an impact even if it was a small impact it made me feel like I could do something and then it continued it got more more intense. I stopped flying and then they stopped flying after me. And then I became an activist. I mean, I tried to do many, many different things, but I didn't fit in there. So then I was like, I'm going to do this by myself. And then I was able to have an impact on people. Do you remember making your sign that

incredibly famous sign? Okay tell us how you made it and how you came up with the slogan? I mean a slogan it was just school strike for klimatet. It was just like school strike for the climate. It was a very basic slogan not very creative. I've made several signs that are the same but the first one I went to a building center and I got like a leftover piece of wood and then I painted the sign white and then I painted the words like the letters with black we were there the whole day every Friday for so long it wasn't in a great condition because it rained a lot so it started to so then i had to make a new one and then i've made several since then so that they won't get destroyed do you still have the original yes oh my goodness it's not in a museum anywhere you still know it's here

behind me i am in my parents place now wow so when it was raining that must have been thoroughly miserable because i see where you were sitting. There wasn't any shelter or anything. So you just sat there and got wet. Yes. And it's Sweden, so it snowed a lot too. Like snowstorms. And that was also fun. And then seeing all the politicians arriving in their fancy cars in costumes going into the parliament while we were sitting in the snowstorm outside. Yeah, it was special. And you never once thought this isn't worth it? No.

So Greta, given that you had this extraordinary impact and you are one individual, you were 50 when it started, what would you say to anyone now who feels overwhelmed with hopelessness, who feels that they can't do anything and so there's no point in them starting trying to tackle the climate change crisis? What would you say to them to give them hope? I would say many different things, but above all that you are not alone. There are so many others in this world who are feeling the exact same thing. And if all of those people, all of those millions or tens of millions of people, or even hundreds of millions of people actually went together and understood that they actually

could change everything, then that would be a game changer. The people in power and those who are benefiting from this system, they want us to feel powerless, because if we do, then that is not threatening their power. But if we go against that and realise our full potential, then that could change everything overnight. If enough people come together and demand change, then change will come. I've got a couple more questions before we get onto your failures. A lot of people around the world consider you to be their hero. And I know you constantly get asked for selfies when you're out and about. But who have you met who you consider to be one of your heroes, if anyone? So, so many. Every single activist in our network I look up to in different ways. It can be very overwhelming sometimes and then just watching the others, knowing that we are together in this,

it does make me feel much more hopeful. So in that sense I look up to them a lot, especially the people who are fighting on the front lines, the people who are already suffering the consequences of the climate crisis and still fighting. And of course, also those who are fighting in places in the world where it's not legal to be an activist and to do this, and they still do it. That is so brave of them. And yeah, they are heroes of mine.

I thought you might say Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yeah, they are heroes of mine. I thought you might say Arnold Schwarzenegger. Because I know he was one of the first people to tweet about your protest, wasn't he? And you met him. Yeah, yeah. The second question I wanted to ask you before we get into your failures is a very, very, very important one, Greta. Is it true that one of your middle names is Tintin?

Yes. That's so cool. My full name is Greta Tintin Eleonora Thunberg. No, I think it's Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg because I have both of my parents' names. But yeah, Tintin, like the cartoon character because I spent a lot of time in Brussels when I was a baby. I had a stuffed animal that was Milou, the dog, so then I was just Tim Tim. In England, we call that dog Snowy, but Milou is a much sweeter name,

I think. Yeah, Milou is a good name. Let's get on to your failures because they are really, really interesting and thoughtful ones, and I am very appreciative of the thought that has gone into these. Your first failure is that you failed to be a normal teenager, which led you to activism. So I wanted to start by asking you, what do you consider to be normal as a teenager? I have actually no idea because I never was one and I've never actually really spent time with one who is. I don't know what normal is. I just know what I was and what being not normal was like. I've never gone to a party. I've never done anything like that. Before I was an activist, I literally didn't speak to people apart from my parents, my sister and one of my teachers. I was just so strange, which was a very, very good thing

long term. I didn't suffer from it because I didn't miss anything. But still, it did feel like I was very much an outsider. But in the long run, I'm very, very glad that that was the case. Because if I would have been like everyone else, I would just have get caught up in this hamster wheel that everyone seems to be in. And then I wouldn't have reflected about anything. I would just have bought everything that people told me. But I didn't. I fell out of that hamster wheel quite early because I wasn't able to cope with it that gave me time to reflect on things and that led me to becoming an activist and I tried for a long time to get organized in different movements organizations and so on but since I wasn't like everyone else I fell out of that quite early on I couldn't

socialize I couldn't be in these environments it was too much noise for me I felt out of place so then I went on doing something by myself which was school striking for the climate and if I wouldn't have been that weird teenager I was if I wouldn't have been that weird teenager I was, if I wouldn't have been so odd, then I would never have started school striking. And I am very glad that I did. I'm very glad you did too. You wouldn't have changed the world if you'd still been on that hamster wheel of denial. Looking back at your 15 year old self who made that sign how do you feel about her I don't think about her that much sometimes for different reasons I have to look back at old interviews or I accidentally look back at old interviews and I look at myself and I feel like oh my god she cannot

talk because I was stuttering and I was too shy I still feel like well she did try at least but I mean in the beginning I didn't talk to people like literally so when I sat there and people came up and started to talk to me I was very very scared and when there were groups of young people, I was sometimes so scared that I had to hide away and cry because I thought they were going to hurt me. And then when journalists came there and started to ask me questions, I had to talk. So it was kind of like I learned to speak the most intense way possible. Yes. You were forced to face your fear because of something that you believed in that was bigger than you. Yeah. I learned to speak in live interviews, kind of. Yeah. And in my, I say, extraordinarily fluent and erudite English, which for a 15 year old is extremely impressive. I can't

speak a word of Swedish, although I sometimes think I can when I watch the Scandi Noir detective dramas but I can't before you started your school strike what was school like for you because if you are this outsider I imagine that it was very difficult for you to feel in any way accepted what were your contemporaries like with you at first I sort of masked because I'm autistic and that's what it's called when you try to fit in like the first years of school and then I collapsed that sounds very dramatic but I I couldn't cope with it so then I was home for like a year and couldn't go out and then I started a school that was for children with different diagnosis that's a different story how Sweden has let companies and individuals own

schools and earn money on them that's a completely different issue so there was a very bad school I just didn't care about other school was a chance for me to learn things and then I just went home and just try to be there as little as possible I think it's so interesting what you say there about not being able to fit in because to do so I my is it would involve you lying about who you were and you don't lie. Yeah, exactly. Yes. You can't be inauthentic. No. So many times when I've had to do stuff and meet people and sometimes I've just not been able to do it because I feel like, no, it's not right. I mean, in the beginning, it was more like I did

stuff because I was okay. When I'm in the beginning it was more like I did stuff because I was okay when I'm in the media the media talks about the climate crisis so it was like so I need to be in the media but then after a while it was just like I hate being in the media because it didn't feel real and I couldn't do that I couldn't be inauthentic yeah you have mentioned that your autism and your diagnosis of Asperger's you have said in the past is your superpower. Explain to us what you mean by that. has it. For many people under the wrong circumstances it can be something that is really difficult if you do not get the support you need. But if you are in an environment that accepts you and that is able to support you and help you when you need it, it can be something that you can use to do things that others would not be able to do. Shockingly many in the climate movement have some sort of diagnosis, whether it's ADHD, ADD, or Asperger's. It makes you see the world in a different way, I think,

and it can make you hyper-focus on things and then be able to do things that you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. Now that you're 19, do you think you're a more quote-unquote normal teenager now? In the sense that I can talk to people and go outside the door yes but in many other ways I'm much more different teenager than I was back then because yeah I spend all my waking hours and when I'm not in school, just constantly working, organising, being an activist. And I don't think that's normal teenage behavior. Have you ever got drunk at a party? No, never. Do you ever want to?

No. Okay. That's good to know. Yeah. okay that's good to know yeah sometimes I don't know if that's because I'm in the spotlight or if it's just who I am as a person I do think it is who I am as a person but I mean yeah does work make you happy it does it makes me feel like I'm doing something meaningful, that it has a purpose. But also, of course, that's maybe not a very, very healthy approach. And of course, sometimes it gets too much when I don't have time to do things,

like when I don't have time to sleep and stuff like that. That's not very good. But to an extent, working makes me happy when it's for a good cause. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated.

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I'm fascinated by friendship as a topic and I'm writing a book about friendship and I would love to ask you a bit about it because it's one of those things that doesn't have a language. We use all of our language for romantic love and actually friendship is so important but I think that people have different ways of finding friendship meaningful and I don't necessarily need to spend physical time with my friends to know that there is great love there how do you evaluate friendship do you need to see people and spend time with them or can you have a really meaningful friendship online both since we are climate activists most of us do not fly um so we have to kind of learn how to be friends on the internet and also people live in like narnia or some some shit like that like on the other side of the planet which is annoying because that yeah so yeah I very often miss like physically being with my friends but I also know have many friends who I who I can meet so it's a combination okay and is friendship I mean I assume it's extremely

important for you yes definitely because it was such a long time where I didn't have any friends apart from my dogs and my teacher if you can say that so yeah I don't see how I could do any of this without them it makes it so much more meaningful not only does it give you a sort of community and a feeling that you're not alone in this, that someone understands, someone has been through this also. It's quite difficult to find someone who is not a climate activist to actually understand because it's just such a different world, such a crazy world. But it also gives you a feeling that these are the ones I'm fighting for. These are the ones I want to give a future. Yes. In that documentary, I Am Greta, there was a moment where you talked about, and you were talking to a friend about how

you want to grow up and get married and have a family. And it sort of surprised me because you're such a unique person that it surprised me, not in a bad way at all that you still had a conventional aspiration do you yes I don't remember that that is I don't know if it's sweet or pathetic of me to say sweet it was so sweet I don't know I have no idea I don't even know what I'm gonna do tonight something that I've had to learn doing this is that you can never plan anything because everything will be turned upside down completely and it could happen in 10 minutes can I ask you well this you probably won't have an answer to this question either but I think many of us consider whether it is morally correct for us to

have children given the state of the planet have you thought about that for yourself I have not and talking about that I think is a distraction it is not humans who are the problem on this planet it is some people's behavior like in a combination with our current economic system that is driving the destruction of the planet and exploiting people. So I do not think that is a discussion that, as it is right now, when we are still in a state of denial, is one that we should have. Great answer. Okay. And it takes us on to your second failure, which is a collective failure in a way and you wrote we have failed to get politicians to act which led to the fact that we've exposed we need a system change so explain to me more about why you chose this failure yeah it's maybe something that most people

won't understand very easily, because many people, also many people in the climate movement, think that, well, now we are pushing the people in power in the right direction, now they're going to act. And then some people get disappointed when they don't. The reality is that what we need now is a complete system change. For example, I mean, the already planned production of fossil fuels right now until the year 2030 is more than twice what would be consistent with a 1.5 degree target. So that means that already now we have locked in this unimaginable level of warming.

All this suffering is already locked in in our current system. So if we're going to avoid that we have to tear up valid contracts and deals and that is something that we cannot do in our system today so that just shows gives a bit of perspective on what we are dealing with and to think that that is something that could be done only by marching on the streets is not very likely to happen. The fact that they have not done anything just exposes the gap between what they're saying and what is actually happening. Of course, it would be nice if they would act, but it's not going to happen. So then we might as well use that in our own advantage and say that, look, we have exposed them. They're not

going to act. That means that they can't act within the system because even if they wanted to they wouldn't be able to yes i understand that's a very sophisticated way of putting it and the 1.5 that you mentioned is the 1.5 degrees celsius enshrined in yeah above pre-industrial levels okay tell us more about that imagine that the audience is entirely ignorant. They're not, by the way, but just in case. No, I know. 2015, the world came together in Paris, and thus the Paris Agreement was created. And there they decided that the world is going to aim to limit the global average temperature rise to well below two degrees Celsius. And recently, more and more scientists, including the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,

has come out and say that limiting the global warming to 1.5 is a significantly smaller risk than limiting it to two degrees. We will spare so many lives and ecosystems, I mean probably entire societies, by doing that. And therefore they urge us to do that instead, to avoid passing irreversible tipping points, planetary tipping points that would trigger feedback loops that we could not be able to stop. So that is why we should aim to limit the warming to 1.5 degrees. And right now, people are already dying at around 1 or 1.2 degrees heating. And your point as well is also, not just your point, but the point of the science, is that it's not enough to reduce our emissions. We need net zero of carbon emissions.

No. I mean, net zero is some kind of compromise. It means that we do not emit more than we are sequestering. And in that statement contains many, many loopholes. For example, as we exclude many emissions, for example, a case study here in Sweden, where I live, we only include one third of our actual emissions, because we exclude consumption based emissions. For example, if I buy a computer, that is not my emissions that someone else's because it's being produced in another part of the world. It's better to take a flight to New York than to take a bus to work,

because international aviation and shipping doesn't count. And also biogenic emissions, for example, the burning of biomass, doesn't count either, even though that, in a short amount of time, releases even more CO2 per energy unit than burning, for example, coal. So there are many, many loopholes. So net zero, for example, many countries have said they're going to reach net zero emissions by 2050. That is something that is completely inadequate, especially if we are to include the aspect of equity. For example, that some countries like

yours and mine have been per capita emitting much, much more than many other countries in the world. And it just happens to be that those countries are also the countries that are being impacted the worst of the climate crisis. So there's a bill here that hasn't been added up. And this is what many countries of the so-called global north wants to forget this, and they want to ignore this. So that is one of the many, many things that we as activists are trying to expose god i wish i had your brain and i also just wish that we could clone you although there's obviously ethical dimensions to that and just package you up and send you into every single place of learning just listening to

you as a total education that would benefit the carrot industry because everyone would be eating carrots then so would they do you love carrots yes okay you need to get a carrot brand partnership that's what we need to aim for next i could be sponsored they could pay for all my bus cards i love that you love carrots. Or just like shredded carrots, raw carrots, cooked carrots. Raw carrots. Okay. More so than cooked. Yeah.

Also frozen peas. Sorry, that's off topics, but yeah. That is weird. Wait, I've totally lost my thread of thought now. Net zero. I'm talking about net zero emissions. Yes. Okay.

Is it true that no politician you've met has ever impressed you? That depends on how you define impress. But in the sense of climate action, then no, no politician has impressed me. I know that there are people who are trying from the inside to improve things. And of course, this responsibility doesn't fall on any individual to do. And of course, this responsibility doesn't fall on any individual to do. But we have to realize that even if they would want to act in line with the science, they would not be able to. Because first of all, it wouldn't be possible in this system, as I explained earlier.

But second of all, they do not have the public support for that. Since the level of awareness is so low, they could get away with basically doing anything and people will not support these radical climate action that would be needed. Who amongst the many politicians that you've met have you liked the most? I don't know. I do have some friends who then decided to become politicians. And that feels a bit weird. But yeah, I still like you as a friend. Okay. Did you like Emmanuel Macron? You seem to get on well with him. He had a very nice dog.

Did he? Yes. What kind? It was a mixed breed, but it was black. Okay. Reminded me of my dog. Okay. Well, that's probably the highest compliment you can pay other than him giving you a carrot that would talk with yeah yeah i mean most politicians

are very friendly that is partly why probably they got the job so it's sometimes difficult to separate the person and their role yes that's that's very astute. Part of what is brilliant about your latest work, The Climate Book, is that it puts all of the science in one place. You've collated the work of extraordinary experts in various different fields and Margaret Atwood, I might add, and you write these introductions to each chapter, which are written in your beautiful and impassioned and clear style. Do you think part of the difficulty is that we live in an age where we distrust experts, where our politicians have taught us not only to distrust experts, but to distrust the truth? We almost live in a post-truth society.

I would definitely say that we live in a post-truth society. I would definitely say that we live in a post-truth society, unfortunately. Of course, that's just my interpretation. Because it does feel like everything has to be up for debate. If someone says that we need to phase out fossil fuels immediately, we need someone else to weigh up and say that, no, that's bad for the economy. Even if it's black and white, the climate crisis is an existential threat. If we're having a debate, we need someone else to go on. But what about the jobs?

Completely ignoring the fact that we will be creating more jobs with a sustainable transition. But because truth doesn't matter, anyone can just say whatever they want. It's not a question about who is right or who makes most sense. It's just who can scream the loudest, who can convince you with the easiest conclusions, the easiest arguments, so that you don't have to think for yourself. You don't have to do anything yourself. You're just being fed this already processed arguments. Yeah. We have a new king here in the United Kingdom. I wonder whether you have met him because he is someone who, as the Prince of Wales, spoke a lot about the damage being done to our climate.

I think I have met him. This is such a flex. You can't remember. I can't keep track of the British royal family. There are so many. I love you. That's the best response ever. You've probably met him.

I think you've met Prince William probably because of the Earthshot Prize. And he's friends with Jane Goodall. I don't know. Okay. They all merge into one i hear you sorry if i offended anyone let's get on to your third and final failure which is that you fail to take anything seriously in private and in your words this means I don't care what people think and I am happier. I was so happy to read this failure of yours because I've worried about you. You've been through so much and so many personal attacks from people old enough to know better.

So tell us how you got to this point of being able not to take anything too seriously I don't know I just guess that's just who I am as a person so many times people have said that aren't you afraid when they see me on the streets like I thought you would have bodyguards and stuff and then I'm like maybe I should take this more seriously than I do just now I saw a letter because people send letters to my family because they think I live here I saw one who had sent a picture of me as a target and I just started laughing because it was really funny which is thank god it's like that and not the opposite because if I would have actually listened to everything people say and if I would have taken it seriously I don't think it would have been possible. Also when it comes to the climate crisis, I mean, don't

get me wrong, I take it very very seriously, that is why I spend all of my time fighting against it, but to a certain extent you cannot take in more than what you already do. If you are doing everything you can to prevent something from happening you have to try at least to not spend all your time worrying about it I've done that many many years ago and I am sort of past that I know that things are bad I know that everything is going the wrong direction it seems like so all I can do is try to eat carrots and just do my best yes eat carrots and stroke dogs yeah do your parents worry when they get letters like that yeah I mean I think so I think they do um I mean they it's reasonable to believe that they would I think they have seen me in a state that I think they are more worried that I would

be worried about it than actually something happening. Okay. Will you tell us about your Twitter biography strategy? Because it is one of the funniest ripostes to trolling I have ever seen. And it went on for a bit. So tell us what happened with Donald Trump and your Twitter biography and also the president of Brazil. There's been so many times, I don't really remember exactly which ones, but there have been several occasions where a certain president or of some country has said something not intended to make me feel good, but rather intended to intimidate or mock me. And then I've used that against them. For example, the president of Brazil, if he says I'm a brat, then I say

brat in my Twitter biography. Yeah. I've actually got the quotes here. So Donald Trump tweeted about you in an attempt at irony, a very bad attempt. She seems like a very happy young girl looking forward to a bright and wonderful future. So nice to see! And you reacted by changing your Twitter bio to match his description, stating that you couldn't understand why grownups would choose to mock children and teenagers for just communicating and acting on the science when they could be doing something good instead. But then President Trump mocked you after being named person of the year by Time magazine, tweeting, so ridiculous. Greta must work on her anger management problem,

then go to a good old-fashioned movie with a friend. Chill, Greta, trill. You responded by changing your Twitter biography to, a teenager working on her anger management problem, currently chilling and watching a good old-fashioned movie with a friend. And when the 2020 US presidential election was happening, Trump was tweeting, stop the count. And you replied, so ridiculous. Donald must work on his anger management problem, then go to a good old-fashioned movie with a friend.

then go to a good old fashioned movie with a friend. Chill, Donald, chill. Yeah. I would never attack an individual, but if they are attacking me first, then I'm just showing what they are saying back at them. So, yeah. Yes.

And you have a great sense of humor, which I think can sometimes get lost in the urgent seriousness of what you do. But you're really funny. I don't know. I'm having fun at least. It's quite funny to see people, their idea of me is that angry teenager who screams at world leaders. It's fun because if you have met me in person, it's like it's complete opposites. It's actually very funny to see. it's like it's complete opposites it's actually very funny to see in twitter profiles when someone says something to me for example on text or something i could just write to them for example

in the group chat in fff sweden we have a spam chat called the moose cult and then i could just write like look at my twitter bio and then they go like oh no have you changed it again and then it's like something really really crazy and sometimes it's very not appropriate and then they go like oh no have you changed it again and then it's like something really really crazy and sometimes it's very not appropriate and then they see it and we like ha ha ha and then I change it back quickly before anyone sees oh I see it's a strategy now okay and you also said after COP26 when you were criticized for swearing which is ridiculous that you went net zero on swear words which also made me laugh so is that the secret then to being able to cope with the nature of these personal attacks is that you have a group of people the moose cult who know who you are and that's who you turn to or yeah and do you have practical strategies do you mute people do you

put your phone on airplane mode and say i'm not going to look at any social media how do you have practical strategies? Do you mute people? Do you put your phone on airplane mode and say, I'm not going to look at any social media? How do you cope on a very practical level? I mean, I have my phone on airplane mode all the time. That's just because I get too many notifications unless I'm like actively working with it. I use social media to like upload strike picture every week. But other than that that i open social media maybe once every three days or something so i don't actually look at it which maybe i should because i could be more because i don't yeah i have no idea what's happening there apart from like when people send me things like oh here's some of the conspiracy theory about you and so on i don't actually look at it.

And sometimes I find myself like scrolling through like comment section, but then I'm like within three seconds, I'm like, why am I doing this? And then turning it off because I don't have time for that. Yeah. I love that the only way you will ever use an airplane, Greta Thunberg, is in the airplane mode on your phone. We can be grateful for that.

I do love the airplane mode. It's so good. So do I. And just going back to that idea that you get your sense of self from the people who know you, is that important to you and, and sort of coping with this level of global fame? I do think it's important to distinguish like, this is this person and that is that person. Otherwise, you would get lost, I think, because I mean, there was a time where I actually looked at what people were saying about Fridays for Future and so on. And it was just like one second I was a communist and the next second I was a super capitalist. And these complete opposites people are saying all the time. next second I was a super capitalist and these complete opposites people are saying all the time one second I was a manipulative child the next second my parents were the ones

manipulating me and so on so it was like I'd have no idea what's happening how do you feel about fame it does make it easier to get a message across it gives me a platform that I could use to try to to spread awareness and so on and then also sometimes I get free food at restaurants but that's another aspect of it that's not as important but it is also important no I'm just kidding but yeah I could never have imagined that doing activism would lead to that because being famous and being an activist aren't words or at least it didn't used to be words that were synonymous but it does make it weird because if I'm organizing at a grassroots level that's a completely different world and

then someone like a president can invite me to a palace and then they could be like a world celebrity that wants to hang out and thus these three worlds and then I'm in school. These worlds are not in any way the same. They have nothing in common. It's fun, but it sometimes takes energy to switch between them. But I do not enjoy being in the spotlight. How do you feel when people ask you for selfies? It depends what mood I am in

sometimes they say like are you Greta Thunberg I say no sometimes I just say yes and just like yeah I don't have time to argue and then sometimes when they say are you Greta Thunberg and then I say no I'm her evil twin I have many like such phrases I use just to make things a bit more fun because otherwise it gets too boring like are you Greta Thunberg no you um and these things sometimes when I'm like please someone just help us do things I'm like can I take a selfie with you only if you come to the strike next week and then they're like yes of course I won't then never do but you've tried yes so I know that you are very good at staying in the present moment but if you'll indulge me I'm going to ask this question anyway if you can imagine yourself as an 85 year old woman what is 85-year-old Greta Thunberg doing? Where is she living? And who is she with?

I hope that she is with animals. I hope that she is with the ones she loves. I hope that she is knitting a lot. I'm doing that already, but I just hope that 85-year-old me is doing it even more. I want to become one of these old ladies who are not silent and who don't accept injustices. Like I know there are many today that are really inspiring and that I look up to and that I want to be like when I'm older. That is such a perfect answer. Surrounded by carrot fields.

Yeah, I should grow my own carrots. Yes yes this podcast is all about failure and also about what we learn from failure but what for you is success do you think how would you define success in your life it depends if it's on a personal level or if it's on a global level I'd love to start with the personal level success for me is well-being I think many people who come up to me and my parents and and like so on like you must be so proud and then I'm like no why would I because I was raised with this kind of idea that pride doesn't mean anything as long as you are happy as long as you are happy, as long as you are doing well, as long as you're feeling well. You shouldn't owe anyone to have to do something, to have to prove yourself and to make someone else proud or to make yourself proud. So success for me

is just being happy and doing something I want to do, doing something that I feel is meaningful for me. And on a global level? As we talked about earlier we can't really expect any concrete improvements right now because it's impossible. Of course that doesn't mean that while we are waiting for this sort of mass movement to be created while we are waiting for this system change that hopefully will come. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't in that time do everything we can as the role of individuals, businesses, politicians, scientists, communicators, etc. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do our very best to do everything we possibly can. But it does mean that we cannot really be satisfied until we have

achieved the real big changes. Greta Thunberg, I count myself so lucky to live in an age where you exist. And to have got to speak to you today is genuinely one of the privileges of my professional life. I'm so moved by you, but I'm also so informed by you. And this has been a great deal of fun on top of that. And I cannot thank you enough for coming on How to Fail. Well, I mean, thank you. I really enjoyed this and thank you so much. Yeah, it's been really lovely. lovely. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.