How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S16, Ep1 How To Fail: Rick Astley on never growing up, never giving up and how a difficult childhood shaped his success

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

We're back for a brand new season. Well...you didn't think we were ever GONNA GIVE YOU UP did you? (See what I did there?)My childhood self is utterly thrilled that we get to open Season 16 with the legendary Rick Astley. The singing superstar who gained worldwide fame in the 1980s with hits such as Never Gonna Give You Up and who is now being discovered by a whole new generation thanks to the viral internet phenomenon known as Rickrolling (don't worry - I didn't know what this was either: he explains it on the pod). Now 56, Astley has 8 consecutive UK top 10 hits, more than 40 million album sales and 3 million TikTok followers to his name. Besides which, he's a thoroughly nice man.We talk about his difficult upbringing, his failure to grow up and his inability to give up drinking good wine. Prepare yourself for a lot of entertainment, some laughs, a side-order of self-deprecation and yes, a few tears too.--My Plan To Save The Planet, the new album by Rick Astley is out now and avaiable to order here.--Failosophy for Teens: A Handbook for When Things Go Wrong by Elizabeth Day is my first ever book for young adults and it's out TOMORROW, 5th January 2023, and available to purchase here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodRick Astley @officialrickastley Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. One of the first cassette tapes I ever owned was a Rick Astley album. And when I was nine, I vividly remember watching the music video for Never Gonna Give You Up. It featured a young Lancashire man, barely out of his teenage years, working a double denim look as he danced in front of a chain link fence. Although Astley is quoted as saying he never thought he was cool, I certainly did. And I wasn't the only one either. He gained worldwide fame in the 1980s, a product of the record hit factories Stock, Aiken and Waterman, and Never Gonna Give You Up went on to be number one in 25 countries, winning a Brit Award. The hits kept coming. Astley became famous and rich seemingly overnight.

But then at the age of 27, he retired from music to focus on spending time with his partner and raising their young daughter. tired from music to focus on spending time with his partner and raising their young daughter. After returning to the studio six years later, it was a wholly unexpected viral internet phenomenon known as Rickrolling which kick-started the next evolution of his career. It brought his music to a whole new generation of fans. Greta Thunberg's karaoke version of Never Gonna Give You Up at the Stockholm Climate Live Conference in 2021 is my go-to video for when I need a hit of pure serotonin. By 2008, Astley was being voted Best Act Ever at the MTV Music Awards. His album, 50, released to mark his half-century, shot straight to number one in the UK charts. By 2021, Never Gonna Give You Up had hit

1 billion videos on YouTube. At 56, Astley has the kind of success and youth kudos a man half his age would dream of. Eight consecutive UK top 10 hits, more than 40 million album sales and 3 million TikTok followers. With all this, you might think Astley has little to worry about. But as he says, I'm a professional northerner. So if there's a grey cloud, I will find it. Rick Astley, I'm so excited to be sitting opposite you. Welcome to How To Fail. Listen, I'm really nice to finally meet you

because obviously we have friends in common, family, your family in common. Yeah, so it's kind of nice to finally meet you too. We should just in common family your family in common yeah so it's kind of nice to finally meet you too we should just end there let's end there it doesn't get any better than that so let's just end it there i'm afraid you can't end there because there's so many questions i want to ask you and you mentioned the family connection so my beloved cousin andrea is a very old friend of yours and your godfather to her daughter and this is how this has come about yeah but I want to start on

that idea of you being a professional northerner and finding a great lad where there could be a nice silver lining to look at is that still the case would you describe yourself as a pessimist I think I'm a realist I'm not a pessimist and that and I think my wife Lena is from Denmark and Danish people definitely Lena are very positive very outgoing, very optimistic to a point of annoyance. That's not quite true. She will say to me sometimes, you know, stop being so negative. And I'll say, stop being so bloody positive. And I think that is partly why we do counteract and balance each other a little bit.

I don't think I am that negative. I mean, I don't think you can dream of having a career in music and be a negative person, you know. And I also think, you know, we're sat in my little studio today. To come in here and actually have the balls to think anyone wants to ever listen to any of this nonsense that comes out of this room, you've got to be pretty positive, you know? I just think that my upbringing, where I'm from, I haven't lived there for years, you know, but where I'm from, you had to be realistic.

Realistic things punched you in the face quite often I think you know I'm from a very working class very normal sort of town normal in the sense of a lot of the things that people did for a job were just very everyday sort of jobs it was a factory coal mining that kind of place you know when I grew up as a small child it's different now obviously everyone works in IT, I think, joking, joking, joking, Newton, I'm joking. But I think, you know, things changed a lot. But growing up, and especially growing up when I did and going into just, we've gone quite heavy, all of us straight into this. But as a kid, I can remember when the coal miner strikes were on. I remember seeing police in riot gear in our little town on the edge of our town because

there was a really big mine there you know there's a couple actually but there was a really big fairly modern one and obviously that the guys were protesting it the miners protesting it being closed and everything I don't think I ever saw the fighting going on everything but you you would drive past there and there'd be a hundred police in riot gear and you think that's pretty brutal I think yeah and I think it's a reminder of I still think there is a bit of a north-south divide to be honest I've just been up in Stockport funnily enough Stockport and Manchester I've got some friends up there obviously it's just a bit different it is and I don't know exactly but you can say that you know

about Italy as well the north and the south and you can probably say about a lot of countries you know definitely say about Ireland we were chatting before right yeah yeah for sure yeah yeah yeah and I think so even though I haven't lived there for 30 odd years I can't really call myself a northerner anymore with any truth to it in the sense that I've lived down here for 30 odd years but there is something still in my bones there's something still in me that my outlook on life is looked at through northern eyes and I don't know exactly what that even means. But anybody listening to this who understands that understands it in the way that I do.

And I think you just can't escape that. You know, it's just the way it is. We'll get more into detail on your childhood a bit later because it pertains to one of your failures. But I'm very interested by what you say there about your upbringing. I assume that you didn't have any pop stars that you were related to it must have seemed like a very far away dream. It seemed a million miles away one of the things that was kind of interesting was that Manchester wasn't far away Liverpool wasn't far away I'm

kind of like equal distance from both of them in the little town that I'm from but we'd go into Manchester shopping when I was a teenager we'd go to obviously looking for clothes and stuff but record stores and all the musical instrument stores you know the ones in Manchester actually had things you wanted to own do you know what I mean you would go in there and you could spend hours in there and I think Manchester was a bit of a centre and it wasn't London for us it was Manchester that was too big a dream London and I remember seeing the bass player from the Smiths with his girlfriend walking down a main street in Manchester.

And I was with my friends that I was in a band with. And we were all just like, it's real. Wow. It's actually real. He's a human being. We've seen him in the flesh, not on a stage, not under coloured lights, not playing a bass. We've seen him walking down a street.

I think if I'd seen Morrissey, I probably would have freaked me out even more, if I'm honest. But I just think it sort of became really real. And also because they were a band that were quite different. And they were just different even in their own, the era that they broke through, they were quite different. But they've just been different forever, if you know what I mean. And anybody ever got into the Smiths, they're just a different kettle of fish altogether from everything. And I think that made it even more so in other words it wasn't if I'd seen a member of Spandau ballet I would have imagined that they'd be very sort of flouncy clothes wise and this that and

the other he was just real and therefore it I don't know it just made us think it's possible that's so interesting because it also floun where does flancy come from i know what you mean though it's a southern word it sort of connects to you now having found your way to this entirely new generation of fans through tiktok through rick rolling through the success renewed success of never going to give you up it's almost like you're real for them in a totally different way they don't see you on the street but they they see you on TikTok. Yeah, well, obviously things like TikTok have changed, you know, the landscape completely because I think it's way before TikTok, actually. I just think people have an appetite to see the backstage side of everything.

Fly on the Wall TV has been around for, what, 30 years, 25 years. And I think people, they love seeing people under the light still and the show and the whole thing but they kind of also want to see them getting ready, they want to see them come off the stage, an argument between the drummer and the bass player over something, they kind of love that I think. It's what makes us human. Yeah maybe but I mean there is a part of me that liked it the way it was before where it was kind of like well that's the dream and like I say seeing a famous bass player from a band we all kind of loved was really strange but also because he was so real that I don't know that made it amazing on the one end but it's so it's lifting

the curtain a bit as well to some degree you know what's behind the curtain and I don't know I kind of I guess I'm 56 so I'm old enough to remember that pop stars were just pop stars. They were idolised. You never saw them getting ready for a gig. You just saw the gig, you know. And maybe that changed at some point. You can't put the cat back in the bag, can you, really? It's done. It's over. That's it.

That's what people want now, you know. They want a bit of everything. Well, let's talk about the journey of Never Going to Give You Up. So for me, watching it as a nine-year-old in my sitting room, that video, which I re-watched in preparation for this interview, and I have to say it bears up to scrutiny because the fashions have all come back. So you're actually looking very trendy again.

Well, there you go. There you go. I'm just going to take that. I'm just going to take that. It's weird for me to look at it, obviously, partly because, yes, I was there on the day. I'm in it. But also because it's become this kind of crazy thing on the internet, that song and the video and everything. It's taken on a life of its own that's got nothing to do with the actual original track and the original video,

and it's just become something else, which I'm grateful for, and it's amazing, and it's definitely helped with every aspect of my life, I think. I guess the only thing that's a bit weird for me is when I look at that guy, I kind of struggle sometimes to see him in the mirror in the morning, if you know what I mean. Like anybody would, I was 21.

So it's very hard to, I don't know what the Stones and McCartney and whoever else think. I mean, cause that's, they've got another 15, 20 years on that even, you know? So it's hard to see yourself that age and try and work out who that guy is you know and how much of that person is still there so I find it really weird I'm over

it by the way but I do find it a bit embarrassing looking at those videos because just because I don't think anybody wants to look back at what they would look like when they were 21 and it's just weird it's odd it did strike me looking at it how young you were. And I was recalling this quote that apparently Whitney Houston said about you. Oh, really? Yes, to Pete Waterman, where she was sitting next to Pete Waterman at a concert and you came out and she said, oh, he's so sweet. I want to mother him. And Pete was like, I'm onto a goldmine, apparently.

But there is that sense. It's a sort of very moving video to watch in a way because you do seem so young and quite insecure yeah I'm very insecure in that video and I'm also very naive I look about 11 I'm 21 in that video and I look about 11 years old and the thing again I've talked about this recently. We live in a world where everybody films everything. Yeah. Everything. You know, you're in a restaurant, you're on the beach, you're whatever, someone pulls the phone out

and he's filming something. So it's totally and utterly normal for someone to be filming anything that you do. I've even had people try to film me when I'm in the men's room because they forget. They forget. Oh, will you just do a video for this thing I'm like can we do this outside with your tackle axe well you know people

just forget they just I don't know what it is they just don't think and I'm like whoa give it a minute you know I've had that a couple of times so people are just used to that but when I was 21 somebody having a video camera of any description, you know, like an old video camera that was the size of a, you know, truck, it wasn't that normal. So to just be in front of cameras and thinking, so we're filming this, was pretty weird. And obviously, you know, a video back then, I'm sure the same today on certain ones, there's 25 people looking at you, of which you don't know any of them, you've never met any of them. And I turned up to that video, all the clothes are mine, I just brought them in a bag. So the double denim, people looking at you of which you don't know any of them you've never met any of them and I turned

up to that video all the clothes are mine I just brought them in a bag so the double denim the stripy shirt the blazer the raincoat just clothes I had yeah nobody kind of said oh well we better find out what Rick's gonna look like and also I wasn't choreographed it was just pure fear you know just stand in front of a camera and dance in front of a chain link fence so it was so unorganized and so it was just ridiculous to be honest but I actually think that is the charm of it exactly that it looks like an 11 year old kid going I don't know what I'm doing here but I'll give it a shot and actually that's why people like Greta Thunberg I imagine relate to it because there's another kid who's grown up in the public eye who finds herself in these weird situations yeah now I had to google Rick

Rowling and look up the definition several times because now I'm showing my age because I was like I couldn't understand it but basically Rick Rowling is when someone sends out a hyperlink to something and claims it's about something else so Greta Thunberg famously did it and said it was about her plan to save the planet. Exactly, yeah. And there was a link and you clicked on it and it's actually a video of you dancing to Never Gonna Give You Up. For sure. Have I got that right? Yeah, pretty much, yeah.

I think you can do anything you want with it now, but that's the original, that you send a link to somebody with a video and they think they're going to see something, whatever that could be, and boom, it either goes straight into Never Gonna Give You Up or you get five or 10 seconds of the video that you think you're going to see and then that kicks in. And that is the joke of the Rick Roll. It's so weird. Why is it your video that they show this? I'm not exactly sure and we've delved into it a little bit and tried to find out and

look at it and there's different people say different things. There was a thing called duck roll and a guy sort of just basically changed it into a Rick roll, if you know what I mean. So I think it was videos of ducks or animation of duck, I think it was. I don't really know. And also, to be honest, I have, to a great degree, kept some distance from it because I think that's the right thing to do. It's like if somebody does something on the internet and it becomes a thing, and obviously that's on TikTok these days a lot, you're allowed to jump on the bandwagon of it and you're allowed to jump on it

and do your version and the rest of it. But when you are the subject of it, I think that's slightly different. So don't get me wrong, we've done a couple of commercials. And if I'm brutally honest, just because they offered me loads of money and because it sort of prolongs the life of the song. commercials. And if I'm brutally honest, just because they offered me loads of money. And because it sort of prolongs the life of the song. It's a bit kind of, I remember back in the day when we used to go to Japan and, you know, we got into a meeting there and they're saying, look, we really want to do a commercial with Rick for a soft drink and all this stuff. And I'm like, I'm not doing that. Why would I do that? And they said, well, lots of other people do it. And I was

kind of like, yeah, but who does that? So they so they sent it was a VHS they sent it around to the hotel and it's just the biggest artist you can possibly imagine all doing you know a whiskey advert whatever advert you know all these different things and I kind of went okay but it was also explained to me that unless you want to go to Japan every couple of months, this is a fantastic way of getting your songs all over the TV and maybe even a bit of the video on the TV and the rest of it. So it was just like a, I guess, a commercial exchange of, you know, we play your music, they paid you to do it obviously as well. So it has been a bit of a weird one because I've always kind of shied away from that just

because I think even though I made you know pop music I still think there is a you just got to be a bit a little bit careful about how far that goes if you know what I mean what you're willing to you know trade for somebody using it but I also sometimes now feel well like like I said before that cat is out of the bag big time so there's not a whole lot I can do about that anyway yeah so we we actually did a video recently for an insurance company in America where we kind of remade the video a little bit which I thought was absolutely bonkers to be honest but it was kind of fun to do it it was actually a bit surreal to do it were you wearing they went honestly I asked for the clothes because I was just so freaked out so can I have these and they're like yeah sure yeah it was pretty weird, to be honest, yeah.

You said there that you make pop music, but actually you make soul music as well. You have an incredible voice. Thank you. And I love your later albums. Thank you. And I think your longevity in this industry, which does celebrate the new and the young,

is so impressive. It's an incredibly impressive feat. And before I go back and ask you about the early days, I want to ask you whether you're enjoying this second iteration of your career more than the first. Possibly, yeah. But that's also just on a very, very personal level in the sense that I can do almost anything I want to do

in terms of going for coffee and dinner and whatever. And if I get recognised, it's usually in a really nice, charming way. It's not really a pain in the ass. You know what I mean? So, and it was back in the day, it was ridiculous. So my friends and I just gave up going out in the end. So, and that's not great when you're 21, 22. You just go, right, I'm just not going to go out then ever. Listen, it's a fair trade, I think, you know, because what happened to me was amazing. I wouldn't swap it. But I remember, I actually do remember going to a club. It was back home, back up north somewhere. And I went out with four friends and I'd had like a really big hit song,

obviously. We might have even been on the second one by then. Just not naively. We just sort of thought it'd be fine. There's five of us. It'll be fine. And it wasn't. And it was just a mess. And in the end, we, you know, they had some, and it was just a mess and in the end we you know they had some what we would call bouncers back in the day who came and looked after us and everything but we just gave up and just went home you know and I just thought that's the end of that then and like I say I don't want that to come like a moment because I would swap that again every single day of the week I'm ever so grateful what happened to me and the life it's given me but there is a trade sometimes whereas today there isn't i can probably go into almost anywhere if not singing definitely whistling never going to give you up no one really cares you know what

i mean so it's kind of nice you know do you think some people become famous because they're insecure or because they want to fix something and then they discover that actually fame and attention makes them more so I definitely think most people who in music possibly you know actors as well and different things who yeah I definitely think I was trying to fill a big hole I do love music I genuinely do I spend hours in this room on my own messing around with bits of music knowing in the back of my mind I'm probably never going to play this to anybody other than Lena and a couple of friends because it's not really something for me but I'm just really enjoying doing it and I will

mess about literally for hours with the sound of a guitar because I think that's just part of who I am and what I like doing. I know I made records that people wouldn't necessarily back in the day especially wouldn't associate me being that bothered about the sound of them they probably thought I was more bothered about my hair than the records. You did and do have great hair to be fair. Come on come on well this this particular one was was made in China. I feel like your hair's got better the older you've got, which not many men can say. Thank you.

I'm very lucky in lots of ways, and my hair is definitely one of the ways I'm lucky because I've still got some. So can I ask you a bit about the genesis of Never Gonna Give You Up? Sure. Because Pete Waterman claims it was something that you said to him.

He had a girlfriend, is that right? Yeah, I don't remember this, but evidently I used I used to get a lift with Pete I stayed at Pete's flat when I very first came to London I think partly because he felt he needed to look after me I was greensgrass I'd been to London once in my life I think and I think he felt well I can stick him in a hotel around the corner but is that you know and also because he had a girlfriend from the town that I'm from. And I think she said to him, look, just make sure you look after this kid, you know. So, yeah.

So, and listen, I would have been okay. But it was, it turned out to be with one of the most amazing things. Because I was in the car with Pete every morning going to the studio. One morning in the car that he's talking and he puts the phone down because it was one of those big mobile whatever phones you know back in the day um great big brick and I evidently said to him fingers Pete you're never going to give her up and now I don't I don't remember that right and I will say that Pete can tell a good story uh and I think he also wasn't daft in the sense that it was said that I was a tea boy and they heard me singing. I don't know who came up with that. And I was a tea boy because they signed me. They started getting busy

and just to show me the ropes and just see what was what, I got to live in London, stay at Pete's and like all the other young girls and guys in the studio, I made the tea, made the coffee, got the sandwiches, cleaned the studios in the morning, reset the desk as you used to have to in those days. Even like, you know, as I got progressed into it a bit, I was allowed to like set the tape machines up in the morning and put the tapes on, which is kind of a terrifying thing to do because the day before they've just written a massive hit song and you're touching physical tape and putting it onto a machine where there's razor blades and everything as well. Cause it was a great experience. And the other side of that as well, at night, they always used to go for a pint in the local pub and I was allowed

to go and sit with them on their table because I was one of their artists even though I was a tea boy I was an artist as well whereas most of the other young kids weren't allowed they'd buy them a drink but they weren't allowed to sit at their table and because they were going to chat business and you know and I just sat there kept my mouth completely shut and just tried to take everything in like a sponge because I didn't know what the music business was really at all yeah and these guys were making hit records you know so I know that if I were having this conversation with a woman I would ask her this question yeah did you ever feel in an uncomfortable position did you ever feel you were being harassed or compromised in some way?

Because you were so young. By who, sorry? Anyone. I mean, that industry is notoriously misogynist. No, no, not in that sense. No, I was just, you know, for want of a better way, just one of the lads. You know, just one of my friends today, one of my close friends today who lives in Australia now, and I've known him for donkey's years.

But he was ahead of me. He was kind of an engineer, really, and became one of their friends today one of my close friends today who lives in australia and i asked him for donkey's years but he was ahead of me he was kind of an engineer really and became one of their proper engineers but he sort of took me under his wing a little bit and he would always show me this that and the other and and i did demos that's the other thing that i'll never ever forget about my opportunity with stockhacking waterman is that their trajectory was just unbelievable and they're so quick and that, you know. So they had like two or three studios not long after I'd sort of started there because they just kept adding them

so they could work in different rooms and have, you know. But we were allowed as the kids, not just me because I've been signed as an artist, they let the tape ops and the juniors and everyone do it. They would give them the studio for the night. So if you were up for staying up all night, you'd be working in a studio that literally the day before was producing a number one record.

And some of the younger engineers and junior engineers and guys who were trying to be an engineer were desperate to do that demo with you. And it was amazing. I mean, it's so different today because everything is so computer-based. So what are you going to break? Pretty much nothing. But if you imagine going into a studio with a desk you're working on at the time was

probably worth three four five hundred thousand pounds that's enough to buy a street where I'm from at the time you know I don't know it was just really odd it was like giving the keys to the castle kind of thing without just really strange when I think back about it and I don't know anybody else who would have done that. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, these words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world.

I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. So your first failure is your failure to stop drinking. Yeah, I did add good wine to that in the end.

Yeah, I did, because the drinking one sounds, that doesn't sound right. I have the ability to refuse alcohol. I definitely do that. And I'm not a drinker per se, really. I just love a glass of wine. And my other thing about it is that if anyone walks through our door after, I'm going to say 5 o'clock, maybe 4 on a Sunday, I'm opening a bottle of wine.

That's happening. I wish you'd arranged this. Later. Yeah. And obviously they don't have to have a glass and I don't. But I'm just saying, I just think it's part of, it certainly wasn't when I was growing up. Nobody drank wine from the little town that I'm from. I mean, maybe somebody did, but I never saw it.

I don't think I ever saw anybody go in a pub and have a glass of wine it just wasn't what you did you know I remember that I remember like a wine bar opening not too far away from us and we're all just thinking what what is it for one you know what I mean I might be exaggerating that ever so slightly but it just wasn't a normally a normal thing and I didn't really get into drinking wine even like in the early days of when I was travelling a lot with having to hit records and stuff. I just didn't. And at some point, something changed.

And also we've had a couple of really good friends, some friends who lived across the road. He's the parents of my godson. Or, yeah, whatever way you want to work that out. Peter is a phenomenal person to know if you want to have a glass of wine. He's always collected wine since he was really young. I think an uncle of his introduced him to it.

I knew certain wines and certain things and obviously it's a little bit about having some spare money so that you can actually say, sod it, we're going to order a bottle of that when we're at dinner or this, that and the other. I'm not a wine officiant. I buy any stretch of the imagination. know certain things I've managed to remember certain things and what have you and I guess I know a little bit about what I like as well and

that's the other thing but if Lena and I go to somewhere like a really great restaurant like let's say if they have a wine pairing with the food we very often do that because I want to try new things and explore things but I tend to be a creature of habit as well I know it's not fashionable anymore but Chardonnay is my thing and yeah I'm just smiling because it intrigues me that you've chosen this as a failure because to me it sounds absolutely lovely you're completely on top of it yeah no I'm not it's not a booze thing really at all but it's a failure in the sense that last night is a great example. So I was out with some friends up in Manchester the other night

and it had been someone's birthday and this was the night he was going to celebrate. So we had quite a few drinks, quite a few drinks. I got home the next day and I thought, I am definitely not drinking. There's no way that, there's no way that, you know. And then I spoke to Lena on the way home and she was making like proper Sunday late lunch kind of thing I thought you don't have to have a glass of wine it's fine you can just enjoy you know anyway cut a long story short I got home and had a glass of wine and what I'm saying is is that at some point you have to say certain days you have to say

that is not happening but one of my closest friends came around and that's the end of it okay somebody walks through that door we're having a glass of wine but why do you have this guilt attached to it because it doesn't sound like you take it to an extreme is no just a is it just a health thing or is it as i suspect actually tied into an internal voice that you might have going who do you think you are i don't know who do you think you are no i think i'm over the who do you think you are believe me i treat myself if i want to that's not a no it's more I think it's partly to do with just willpower just I've got strong willpower in certain things and wine it just doesn't happen it just doesn't and even when we play live and stuff I'd say the

one thing that I've done which is great certain gigs certain gigs we do, obviously, we go on tour, we're all on buses, it's a tour, that's what we do. But sometimes you're just doing a gig on a Saturday evening in wherever because I might play at a race course or what have you. And very often, because I'm a slightly control freak type of person, I drive myself. I could have a driver, but I don't. I drive myself.

So I can't drink. So even if we've come off stage someone's cracked open a really nice whatever I'm like well I can't I'm driving home in 10 minutes so I don't yeah and I think that's been really I mean healthy in lots of ways I just think it's that thing of being able to say no I just can't do it so but you can do it in other areas or I can do it like I'm not like I said I don't have to drink every day of my life. It's not like that at all. I don't crave a drink in the morning. There's no way that I'm even getting close to being a drinker.

Yeah. It's just that thing of, like some people do it with chocolate. Yes. Some people do it with, it's like. Okay, it's that kind of thing. And also I feel rude if I don't open a bottle of wine. I feel kind of like, well, that's the accepted norm. It's like, why are we not going to have a chat and a glass of wine?

Why do you think you're control free? I'm a bit of a control freak. I don't like flying and i think that's partly control i'm exactly the same right okay i don't really like being driven i can handle it especially in towns and stuff but if someone's going to drive me on the motorway at some distance and some speed i'd much rather be doing it myself i don't mind the tour buses for some reason i guess because you're just all in it together and you're on a big tour bus, but I don't really like being driven, if I'm honest. And I have certain control things like that. I think it stems from maybe things in childhood, but I also think it got massively exaggerated when I was in control of nothing for like four years of my life. Stocking and watermen.

Well, not just that, it's not those guys, it's just having hit records. And, you know, I literally went everywhere lots of times in a very short space of time, really, four or five years. I never stopped traveling. And some days we'd fly twice a day. And that just gets a bit old pretty quick. And I think it's just that sense of seeing a fuzzy fax with all the stuff you have to do on it for the next week and just thinking, that's just not human. And I remember sometimes, again, it sounds like a moan. It's just an observation. It's just you do interviews all day sometimes, or I certainly did back in the day. And you think, right, I'm going to pretend I want to go to the bathroom because I just need to go and sit somewhere on my own for 10 minutes. And even at a young age, I just did it. I just did what I was asked to do.

But there were moments where I would kind of think this can't be good for you you know. Is that part of the reason why you took that hiatus? I know you also had a young daughter. Yeah it wasn't going to be that for me it was I was quitting full stop I wasn't really entertaining partly because I kind of thought I'd had a good little run at it and usually you don't get another go anyway. Most of the people who've managed to have 30 odd year career, real careers, I mean there's a handful of them. You two have done it. You can say other bands, rock bands have done it but not many. Pop stars like real, you know, let's say Kylie for instance. She's done it but I don't know what that woman's made of, I'll tell you. I do not. I've got so much respect for her I can't tell you Madonna's done it to some degree well not to some degree she's done it she's been the biggest pop star

in the world you know but I don't know how people do it and keep hold of themselves really and like I say whenever it's not for me to say this but whenever I've been around Kylie in the brief moments and times I have you can still see a human being there you can feel a real one and that's pretty amazing yeah because most people who do that it's so unreal and so kind of detached almost you know what I mean it's almost a shock sometimes I think when I've met people who are really famous and this that and the other you know but thankfully I've met a bunch who aren't and you just think oh my god that's amazing you know we were talking before we started recording about new kids on the block because you've just been on tour with new kids on the

block en vogue and salt and pepper which is just my dream come to life it was great and you said new kids on the block were like that too they all still hang out they all were the girls were everybody was we didn't exactly hang out a lot together because it was a tough tour you know we did 56 arena shows in america which was just mad you know I can't do that kind of gigging anymore you know without without doing it with somebody else can't even get close to it and we went to states that I don't even think I played back in the day when I was having my hits there you know so it was an amazing opportunity and a great thing to do and I did actually have a bit of contact with Donnie before Donnie Wahlberg that is who's kind of like the the, I don't know, you call him a spokesperson, but I think he kind of leads them a little bit,

and I think the guys acknowledge that in a really nice way as well, you know, so I kind of thought, yeah, he's cool, you know, he's all right, he's like a real person, like I say, you can, you know, I spoke to him quite a bit, but under the pressure of touring as well, you think, well, I don't know what this is going to be like, because it was really their tour, and we were guests, that's the way it is, and you kind of think, that's a lot of pressure because it was really their tour and we were guests. That's the way it is. And you kind of think, that's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of, you know. And one of the amazing things, which I still to this day can't believe,

is they went on first. They opened the show to get everybody like, this is happening. Boom, straight out the gate. And then they'd go off and they'd get changed. They'd have a little minute's break, whatever. Somebody else would go on, sing a couple of songs. I'd go on sing a couple of songs whatever whatever the list of the way it ran but and then they'd obviously come back again three or four times and we all kind of came back a couple of times I did songs but for me that even shows something about the mentality of rather than going oh no we're going to let you warm them up

and then we will you know there was none of that they just made you, no, we're going to let you warm them up. And then we were, you know, there was none of that. They just made you feel like, well, we're just doing this together when we're in it. And even backstage, they're just totally chilled. There was no, you know, obviously, I'm really respectful of people in any scenario. But in that world, I'm doubly respectful, because I know what it feels like if you just have one of those days when nothing seemed to go right. And now you've got to go and sing for 12,000 people. It's not easy sometimes, you know, because not because of the concert and all of that, it's just stuff that can happen in the day.

You know, just like you forgot a bag at the hotel and that's the bag with everything in it or whatever it is, you know. And they were just really chilled. Everybody was, you know. It wasn't easy to do the gigs because there was a lot of them and there's a lot of traveling and all that,

but the actual backstage vibe and everything and there was like a real camaraderie of people rooting for each other to go up there and do it and that's really nice to see because it isn't that world is not always like that you know I can imagine what's the most surreal celebrity encounter you've ever had because of your career I don't know whether I really want to talk about them always because I kind of want to keep them as my little things. Oh, please give us one. Well, obviously, this is a very, very, very, very public one, so I have no problem talking about that.

I jumped on stage with the Foo Fighters some years ago in Japan, and I've done it a couple of times since because that's about as far into the spectrum as you can get, really. Me, Foo Fighters. It just so happens I'm a bit of a Foo Fighters freak because I still play drums, and I have a bit of a Foo Fighters freak because I still play drums and I have a couple of friends and we have a midlife crisis rock band and we play from Sex Pistols just anything that was like punky kind of like part of that movement of music's just

changed and we were all kids learning those songs and everything and being influenced by them and you could play punk music you could get away with it and if it was a bit rubbish that sort of seemed genuine then if you know what I mean because that was even though there's a lot of punk records that are actually great when you listen to them but you could get away with it in a pub anyway so we play some Foo Fighters as well because we play anything from back in the 70s that we've just loved or meant something and we do it for charity so we can get away with it so it's pretty weird for me because I'm thinking, well, this is actually the Foo Fighters. This is pretty strange.

And also the fact that they were already on stage. It wasn't like we'd met before. It was a huge festival in Japan. They were already up there. I've said this in interviews before. So Dave Grohl came over to me, and I thought he was coming to say hello to somebody else. But he kind of made a beeline for me.

And I was behind a barrier because, obviously, we were just at the side of the stage and he gave me a hug and he's like you know and I'm like what is going on and I was really jet-lagged and I'd had a few beers by this point because we'd done our set like hours before 20 minutes later one of the crew came over with a mic and said Dave wants you out front and I'm still thinking why I'm not thinking like to sing. I'm thinking he's just going to go, look who's here, everybody, or something. Or, you know, well, I don't know. So anyway, and he just whispered,

we're going to do your tune, but it might sound a bit like Teen Spirit. And I'm like, okay. So we just did that that night. And it was just mad, you know. And I think, I mean, listen, they are known for being a ferocious, incredible live band.

Of course they are. And I think anybody who's ever seen them live, you get it. But you want to try being on stage with them. That is something else. Wow. Yeah. I had no idea. I knew it had happened, but I didn't know it was that last minute

and you were dragged up. I'd never met any of them. Wow. And it was just really surreal. And I've met a couple of people as well. I'm not even going to say who they are if that's okay. Because it's, you know, who were talking about the pillars of music. People who are just like, if there's a book,

they wrote the first two pages kind of thing. And they've been really gracious and nice and said hello to me. I haven't had to wait in line to say hello to them. They've made the effort in a room and gone, I'm going to go and say hello to that lad.'t had to wait in line to say hello to them they've made the effort in a room and gone I'm gonna go and say hello to that lad and I just that blows me away sometimes I'll ask you who it is don't worry so your second failure is that you failed to be close to your parents yeah yeah I'm the youngest of four kids but there would have been five because they had a son so there's Jane who's the eldest then John and in between John five because they had a son. So there's Jane, who's the eldest, then John. And in between John and Jane, they had a son called David who died of meningitis.

So before I was born and before my next elder brother, Mike, was born. But obviously that leaves literally a ghost in the house. How awful. And I didn't really understand that because, again, it's really difficult, I think, when you're talking about going back all those years because we're talking 50 odd years my mum and dad had one book with photographs in it and there might have been one that David was in I think because not a lot of people maybe maybe wealthy people did maybe people who are really into taking pictures did but most people didn't they didn't have like endless photographs of, you know? And obviously as well, I can't imagine my mum or my dad

wanted to be reminded of that, but nobody ever really spoke about it. And I knew it, but as a really small kid, and I have thought about this since, even as a tiny kid, you realise we don't talk about that, do we? But nobody really explained why and nobody, you know. Anyway, so that's the first thing. How old was he when he died? He was two, I think. Possibly three, two and a bit. But the other thing

is that my mum and dad had two more children, Mike, my brother and myself, and then got divorced. So they divorced when I was about four and never really spoke. They're both dead now. They both passed away in the last few years. And they never spoke to each other. My dad would put the receiver of the phone down next to the phone because he'd answered the phone and wouldn't even say who it was. But we knew it was my mum because we were brought up by my dad. We lived in his house, not my mum's. And I saw my mum almost every day, I think, in the beginning and for years.

And I used to spend more weekends with her. But I just think they were both broken. I just think they were, when I look back, I think they were both completely broken by it and by each other. And I never really got past that, I don't think. I'm not going to blame them because I can't possibly put any blame on them because of what I've just told you. But they were just

incapable of being the parents they wanted to be and I wasn't capable afterwards of fixing that I'm so sorry thank you was it quite unusual in those days to be raised by the father it was yeah it was but I think my mum I think truth told, she probably just had a massive breakdown. But again, nobody talked about it. It wasn't up for conversation. And as a kid, you just brush it under the carpet and you just make the best of it and you do whatever, you know. But no, it wasn't normal for parents to be divorced.

Yeah. I think I was one of two kids in our school that had divorced parents. My dad had some issues. Boy, did he have issues. And he was an extremely angry depressed person but he was also unbelievably joyful which so probably manic-depressive or whatever the term is for that today but that made it very very difficult growing up in that house because he would literally come through the door

with a bag of sweets or what have you and say let's do this or what have you or we'd all watch like a favorite TV show together. But then we would also encounter that he could go out and come back not long after and be in the foulest mood you can possibly imagine. And break stuff. He hit me twice, once I didn't deserve it. And my brother, my next older brother, Mike,

and I left home that day. And the other time I did deserve it. So I can't really blame him for that. How old were you when you left home? We left home, I was probably about 17, I think. And we went to go and live at my gran's house, which is where my mum lived. And there was kind of room for us there. And we shared a room together and stuff.

And Mike's three years older than me. I mean, what is the making of a person? I don't know. But I think to some degree, hardships, this that and the other, they're the things that actually and failures are the things that actually make you and so in a way I wouldn't stop any of my life at all. I wouldn't change any of it because I'm unbelievably grateful for where I am and where I've been but I do think I would have liked to have been able to make that connection with my mum and dad better. I think, I don't mind saying this now because they're both dead, but my mum was able to connect with other people way better than she could with

her kids. And it's totally understandable. So she wasn't really close with any of us really. And anybody who's from my little town of Newtley Willows who gets to hear this might say what is he talking about and say yes but you weren't one of her kids yeah and I wish I could have changed that and fixed that but I couldn't and none of us could you know when you say it's perfectly understandable do you think it's all related to the loss of yeah I do yeah I do. Yeah, I do. I do. I mean, obviously things perhaps, you know, in her childhood as well and different things, all kinds of things. And maybe, maybe that's a convenient way to put that in a box is to say, well, that's the way it was because of that. So my mum might've had issues before that, after that. But again,

we're talking about a time when nobody would have gone to talk to anybody about these issues. You would have just buried them in a dark hole and forgot about it you know I think because I've been so lucky in my life and I've done therapy over various things and I've also managed to have the time to sit around and think most people don't get that time most people are up in the morning before they know what they're doing they're halfway through their day they're knackered when they get home and they try and make the best of it at the weekend that maybe that's not quite true but i i kind of see that as what most people's lives is it's like grab the moments when you can because we've got to work our asses off just to keep our heads above water and i've been unbelievably lucky that at the age of 27 i kind of quit and had a lot

of time on my hands one to pay for therapy, have the time to actually go, and the luxury of being able to think about it afterwards. You know, it's not just an hour or the 50 minutes. It's like I could actually decompress afterwards and think about it and just sit there drinking a coffee thinking, what do I really think about that? Most people don't get that time, you know? I think that's an exceptional insight, the privilege of time.

It is a privilege. It absolutely is. And when you went on that career break slash quitting was it partly because you had become a parent and therefore that was triggering in lots of ways for you in terms of working out what kind of parent you were going to be yeah I'd love to say that that was the most of it. And it definitely was a trigger, there's no doubt about it. I mean, Amelia, our daughter, changed a lot of things for me because I was kind of scared of being a parent, I think, because I don't think my parents were equipped

to do the best job with us. And I wondered whether I was going to follow that as well. But I think, you know, I just, when it actually happened and she arrived, I didn't really have any second thoughts about it really. I just instantly became a I think you know I just when it actually happened and she arrived I didn't really have any second thoughts about it really I just instantly became a dad you know which is I'm sure is extremely normal but if it happens to you I think what it did it just made me realize how fucking stupid pop music is or I should say I'd like to retract that the music's great the music is great it's almost life-saving for certain people

me included at times uh it's it's the business is just ridiculous it sort of destroys people at the exact same time of giving them everything you know yeah and i think that's such a weird kind of scale if you like left and right whatever it's just it's just crazy it's like it gives you everything and also kind of eats you alive you know and I think it takes a very very special kind of person to come through that unscathed kind of thing and I think what it did to me was it made me just think well it's one or the other because I was beginning to sort of I wouldn't fly anymore which yeah you can relate to just not flying you don't have to be a famous pop star not to like flying and I did it all the time and I did it for years without thinking about

it when I very first started I didn't like it but I did so much of it immediately literally went from oh we're going we went to Belfast I remember it well we went to Belfast. I remember it well. We went to Belfast and that I was like, oh, so we're flying. Okay, fine. And we did it. And I was like, whatever. We didn't really like it. And then we're going to Berlin. Okay. So we went to Berlin. And literally from those two flights, I never really stopped getting on planes all the time. wasn't bothered about it at all and I wasn't I didn't have a phobia of it before but I wasn't I hadn't done a lot of it you know but towards the end of me and before you know that career that I had in those early days I got to the point where I thought this is the one that I'm actually going to die on and when you've got a child at home and and all that everything you could possibly want in life is just waiting for you you've just got to stop doing this nonsense to go and do it you know what I mean that was the other thing if I stopped doing that I've already got to stop doing this nonsense to go and do it. You know what I mean? That was the other thing. If I stop doing that, I've already got enough money, as long as I'm not an idiot, to last me for the rest of my life.

Because as you can see, I don't have Ferraris everywhere and this, that, and the other. I've got a lovely home and I've got a fantastic life and I've got everything I could possibly want. What money is for me is freedom. That's exactly what it is. It's just freedom. It's not the things it buys you, although obviously it does buy you because it buys you freedom

it buys you nicer hotel rooms that's for sure nicer wine nicer wine it definitely does and I won't ever refute that or even you know of course it does of course it does it's inescapable what money does of course it is but what I'm saying is it doesn't actually, it doesn't motivate me in a way that I think you sometimes see people motivated by it, you know what I mean? Talking about your fear of flying there and just where you were at mentally before you took time out, were you ever worried that that anxiety could pitch into depression? Did it? And were you particularly worried because you'd seen your dad? No, we do talk about it and we do talk about our parents and the way that they were.

But you see, one of the kind of strange things, I guess, in a way, is we're all with long-term partners and we've all got kids and we've all kind of, you know. And I think, I'm not saying that it runs in the family that your parents get divorced or you will at all. I'm not saying that, but I just think, I think we have actually consciously sometimes said, what is important? What is, you know, I'm not saying it was a gift that our upbringing was a bit dark at times. But I think it's just made me appreciate that for one, it doesn't have to be. So stop being an arse and being in a mood about things that don't matter. But I am only human. If I could stop myself getting in a mood and getting depressed immediately, it would never happen. I know it sounds ridiculous actually when I've just said that out loud, but what I mean is it's because it happens so fast, something triggers it and I'm in

that mood straight away. It's not a gradual sort of something's upsetting me. It's like, boom, and I'm upset. And I think if I could just give it the 10 second kind of what have you, which sounds like something you read on the back of a dodgy self-help book, but I could, I could stop it every time. It just happens. And I think it's because it's, it's like, it's from your childhood. Like I say, I think it's very much rooted in that. And it's something I learned just as an example. And I don't want this to get too heavy because I'm so, so grateful for my life. like I say. I haven't had a hard life in any respect, I don't think. But I have got triggers that make me think about stuff in terms of parenting.

And one of the triggers, bizarrely, is my dad used to have, he had a little garden centre. And at one point he had a pickup truck. He had a little business before that and he had a pickup truck for that, really. And it was a Volkswagen pickup truck. So it's the sound, if anybody knows this sound, of an old Volkswagen Beetle.'s a really distinct sound and we lived in a small

little town and we could hear that truck coming and when we heard the sound of that truck we turned the music off and we got in a state of readiness for what Moody was going to come home and listen people have had it way worse than that. But I'm saying the trigger is still there. The trigger for things is still there for me too. And I think that's why the temper I've got, which isn't under control most of the time, I'd like to think it is, but I know it's there. I know it's that thing of it's just instant.

It's just, and I don't like it about myself at all. I think a lot of anger obviously is triggered by fear. And my fear goes back to that fear of my dad coming home and not knowing what mood he was in. If he was in a foul mood every single day, it would have been a hell of a lot easier. Because there's consistency. Yeah, he just wasn't.

First of all, thank you so much for sharing that because I know so many people relate to it. Secondly, you are such a lovely person and you are constantly at pains to ensure that your gratitude is expressed and I want to reassure you that you've done that beautifully you don't come across as a moaner or someone who doesn't know at all but thirdly I wanted to ask you whether that inconsistency of parental mood do you think that might have made you into a performer in some way? Because you were always shape-shifting.

Yeah, I think there is an element of performance in it, yeah, because you've got to put a performance on for your parents when they come on, or, you know, my dad in my case. Yeah, probably. But I think, because we talked about it, you brought it up before, but I didn't really get into it, I think the thing of going on stage, I wanted to fill this black hole that I felt was in, not just in my life but probably in my whole

families. Oh Rick. Sorry. Don't be. Yeah, no but I think, I do think it's kind of interesting that, especially because of the music I made. I didn't make dark and miserable music. Yeah. You know what I mean, which is, you associate that very often with people who've had, that especially because of the music I made I didn't make dark and miserable music yeah you know what I mean which is you associate that very often with people who've had that's their release for it there's also a bit of safety on stage I feel really really comfortable not the two seconds before I get up there I'm quite nervous obviously like everyone is you know but that's a different kind of nerves and it's an adrenaline thing and it's all kinds of things but when you're up there you I feel quite in control I feel in control of the audience in a in a nice way obviously but and I'm in control of myself and I think there is a safety

in it it feels safe you you've got like a suit of armor on and you've given the rest of us such a beautiful gift so out of this darkness has come such an act of generosity on your part I can't see it like that I just got lucky well I can I okay well that's that's a very nice way to put it but I just got really lucky I think I know I've got some talent I've got some talent in a few things that sit well within the world that I got into in music obviously but I also know that it's not about just that. It's about so many things. And friends that I've had have been in music and stuff. And from a bit of a distance, I can kind of see, well, that's why that didn't happen. It's because very often it's timing, it's luck. All the biggest bands and artists in the world had some luck at

some point. Masses of talent, masses of drive, masses of what it takes to get there. I don't think anybody who couldn't really be asked made it. You know what I mean? You had to really want to do it and you had to put that effort in. But there's luck and there's timing and there's just moments of when you meet that one person who's going to open that door and realizing that's the moment. And most of the people I've met who it didn't happen to are because they didn't realize that was the door they just didn't open it. God luck really does it does I think it does. A final question on this what did your parents make of your fame? My dad absolutely loved it my dad by the way was really because I've painted him it was quite a

dark character he was a very dark character but he also really loved us and he also was unbelievably proud of what happened with me which was a tough thing for him to do because he hated pop music. He hated accountants and pop music and my brother Mike is a chartered accountant because he had a little business so he hated the accountant coming and he hated pop music and he let my first band and I was the drummer for God's sake he let my first band rehearse in the greenhouse at the garden centre, which must have been a nightmare for him, but he did it. And like I say, he was a really loving person. He just wasn't able to control when he was that.

And towards the end of it, I didn't speak to my dad in the end for like 20-something years. There was just nothing that we could do to get over that. And my other brothers and my sister had a very kind of strained relationship with him as well, where they would go years without talking to him. And eventually something would happen where they'd sort of let the guard down or whatever. And I just said, you know what? I'm not doing it.

Amelia was born. I just said, I'm just not doing it. I think I'm done. And I would love to have changed that. And I did make attempts to change it and then you know and you just have to give up because it's it's a bit like I think when you're dealing with an alcoholic and you think you're doing you're doing things for them and in truth you're just enabling them really and I think some of that was in my dad I think a little bit

so anyway sorry what about your mum with fame my was very proud. I think my mum was an incredible piano player again I find that really sad in lots of ways but it was what it was my mum got a job in an office where my mum and dad divorced in a local little company where we lived and She worked there for years and but she could sight-read classical music. She could play anything Way better than I am as a musician. Tons better. But none of us ever learned to play the piano with my mum.

And we had a piano in the house and she had a piano at her house. And that just speaks volumes to me somewhere. I can play the piano now. She just wasn't really connected to us, I don't think. And like I say, I don't want to paint a bad picture because my mum was so generous with people. connected to us, I don't think. And like I say, I don't want to paint a bad picture because my mum was so generous with people. My mum, like she loved decorating. She would go and decorate people's houses who were a bit older than her. And you know, when she was in her 50s and 60s,

she would go and decorate someone's house for them. Because I think she found it easier. And listen, it's so obvious to say these things. She found it easier to be in people's lives who weren't really in her lives yes and obviously like i say i think when you've been so broken by something you know like losing a child i think that's probably where that comes from so i said it was my final question on this video i lied there's one more which is you mentioned that both your parents have passed now yeah and i wonder what that feels like when you're estranged from your parents when you're not that close yeah I imagine there's an enormous amount of sadness or regret but I imagine I imagine

there might also be peace no there wasn't really there's definitely peace yeah and I thought about going to see my dad and just saying hey let's you know but he'd become so ill towards the end of it anyway he wouldn't really have known who I was I don't think at that point and I just thought I'd like to remember the good times and remember the positive side of you know what I remember of him and again I've heard podcast interviews where people said no I wanted to do it so I went and met my dad or my mum or whatever and I did think about it a lot but it just for me just didn't seem to make sense so I've got my memories of the that I want to remember of him and that's better to keep it that way I think. And my mum, I saw my mum right up until she became ill and passed and what have you, but I just wasn't that close with her and I don't think that was,

and I say I, I think I can't speak for my brothers and my sister but it's for them to say, but I don't think it's lack of trying on our part really so I think she just detached herself from the world a little bit you know. Rick thank you so much talking about that. My pleasure. Before we move on I just want to say that one of my favourite songs of yours is Keep Singing. Oh thank you. And that opens with lyrics about your father and actually you should all stop listening to this podcast now and just go and listen to that song and then return to this because it's so beautiful thank you thank you your final failure is your failure to grow up in your words yeah what age are you stuck at uh well I'm 56 obviously in real terms but I'm also 21 in a lot of other ways because that's when I became famous and I can't remember who said this but a lot of people

sort of stick there and I don't think in a sad way for me I really don't and most of the time by the way I don't feel like that I don't feel that I'm 21 or that I'm stuck in this moment as Bono once said so eloquently I feel it's more like lots of people my age and around my age or younger even would say yeah but I don't feel I feel like I'm in my 20s I feel like I'm in my 30s or what have you. Physically I don't believe me physically I don't but I think my energy for things sometimes feels and I think it's partly because I work with a lot of younger people I'm around younger people a lot of the time and it's the energy that music gives me, I think.

It's literally like I could jump off the chair and get stuck into something because I've just heard something that's completely floored me again. And luckily that hasn't ever changed. And it can be an old record sometimes as well. But I hear something new and I just think, oh my God. And the emotion of that feeling is,

I'm saying 21 because that's when Never Gonna Give You Up came out and that my life just completely changed and for the better in my God. And the emotion of that feeling is, I'm saying 21, because that's when Never Gonna Give You Up came out, and that my life just completely changed, and for the better, in my opinion. And the only thing I'm saying about failing to grow up is, I've probably done things and made decisions and even done some parenting things that I didn't really do as an adult. I kind of did it as a kid, really. In a good way well yeah both definitely definitely both we were very young parents yeah I was 25 when Amelia was born and that's pretty young I mean not not for certain people but it for you know I think it was pretty young and in lots of ways

I really am appreciative of that because I had loads of energy. But the negative of that sometimes is that I was a kid myself. I was so lucky because I had some money. Oh, my God. So you can have an au pair or a nanny or what have you. And I know lots of people can do that. But in terms of, like we said before, the amount of time that I had and the freedom that I had to just say, I'm going to do nothing other than just go to whatever and take Amelia with me

and just potter and look at the ducks or whatever. And I could do that a nothing other than just go to whatever and take Amelia with me and just potter and look at the ducks or whatever. And I could do that a lot more than other people. But I kind of think sometimes that I wasn't, I wasn't really old enough mentally to have a child. I don't think. Okay. I think in a way. And what were you like, or are you like as a husband? Well, I mean, obviously the kind of thing about being young at heart is great and I love that when I see that in people and feel that in people and like I say I'm surrounded by musicians and people who work in the kind of technical side of touring and what have you and all the rest of it making records and stuff and you've got to be young at heart to do that I mean my god we're all like Peter Pan really it's ridiculous to be doing that sometimes it's like grow up you know but

I certainly think with the band and the crew and everyone that I work with they've all got that young at heart thing but they also have a real professionalism about getting the job done and that's also why I love doing it I think yes yeah yeah oh we're so grateful that you do it too and if you'll allow me I'd love to tell the story about Thomas yeah a few months ago my best friend Emma her son Thomas who is now 11 she said to me do you know what he's been having a bit of a tough time at school but the one thing that he really loves is Rick Astley music I said what what indeed Rick Astley is in our Rick Astley exactly yeah what and she said he absolutely loves Rick Astley he goes around singing his songs all day long.

And because I am lucky enough that I have a connection to you, I said, oh, I'm going to see if I can tell Rick that. And so I got in touch with my cousin who got in touch with you. And you were so kind. And you sent Thomas a little video. Yeah, yeah, sure. And Thomas was so thrilled that he sent you a video back of him singing Never Gonna Give You Up.

And you were kind enough to say that he was pitch perfect and you have transformed thomas's life he now but like he joined a choir he's got singing lessons he's got a whole new group of friends all of whom have been brought to him through singing great that my friend is the power of rick astley well i thank you i will take that with both hands i kind of think that I say, I think that's some of the amazing stuff with music. And that's why I've been, yes, I'm lucky because I've made money. And yes, I've been famous. And that's been a treat at times and all those things. But I think the thing of just being allowed to do something, which has been such a massive part of my life in a super positive, super kind of otherworldly kind of way. You know what I mean? Not many people, pretty much everyone loves music, but it doesn't that often get a chance to affect your life in that kind of everyday sort of way

where something as easy and simple as doing a video for someone but can mean something. Exactly. It's like, you know, we we all love music of course we do but not many of us get the chance to actually send somebody a message that is it actually influences what they think and what they feel and there's times i've got certain bands and i'll follow them and i'll follow their tweets and the streams and this and i'll follow some of the reactions people have and as you can witness i cry at the at a cat I'll cry at. But it's really moving how people get affected by music.

And like I say, I'm not poo-pooing it or doing it down, but I'm sort of saying when you think about Never Gonna Give You Up and the way it sounds and that video and the whole everything, it's amazing that it's in its own small way and its own what have you. I'm grateful for the fact that it's made people laugh and it's made people giggle and it's made people listen. But in that instance, it's actually made someone say, yeah, I kind of like singing that song. And it's brought them out of themselves a little bit.

That's a massive, it's huge. You know what I mean? And there's no way when we were making that record or even when I was having a hit with it and traveling here, there and everyone doing all that, I would have thought this is going to mean something to someone. And when the amount of people who've come up to me and said, that was our wedding song and stuff, it's just like, oh, my God, you know. And at the time, it probably didn't mean that much when I was 21, but now it does because I'm a real human now, and I've felt things and done things, you know.

I don't want to make you cry again. For me, that song and your music is this expression of love the love that maybe you didn't experience in a consistent way when you were a child you are now handing out yeah maybe to so many other people well that's a lovely way there's a lovely way to think and look at it I don't think I can go down that road and do that I think I'm probably being a bit detached in that sense of but again because as much as I feel stuff when I'm on stage, and I have cried on stage a few times, and I've this, that and the other, it's a lot of things being on a stage when it's really going well, that's a lot of emotion in lots of different ways. And I sometimes think it's kind of crazy

that the last song we always play pretty much, unless we do ACDC, is never going to give you up. And it sort of encapsulates a lot of things that have happened in my life. And it sort of gave me my life to a great degree. And now we're going to sing it. No, I'm kidding. Let me go, everybody. Rick Astley, this has been such a joy. Thank you for making my childhood dreams come true.

And thank you for giving us such a beautiful, moving and profound conversation. You're an absolute legend. Thank you so much, Mick Astley. Thank you. I've actually bizarrely enjoyed it in a way, even though I've cried three times,

I think, but there you go. The ultimate compliment. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist