How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S16, Ep2 How To Fail: Alex Jones on fertility, mental health and the time she locked King Charles in the toilet

Episode Date: January 11, 2023

TW: miscarriage; infertility.Oh Alex Jones, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways... Like many of you, I already felt I knew Alex before I met her. She is one of the most trusted and famliar faces on our TV screen as co-host of BBC's The One Show. But in person, she was EVEN lovelier than I could have imagined: warm, funny and totally genuine.She's currently presenting an extraordinary documentary series on the W Channel which saw her train as a fertility assistant at one of Britain's leading clinics. Making Babies is one of the most emotional - and accurate - portrayals of fertility I've ever seen. Alex joins me to talk about this, as well as her own experience of miscarriage. We talk about how she got fired from her first job for a number of hilarious professional errors of judgement - including the time she locked the future King in the toilet. And we discuss her self-perceived failure to understand the mental health challenges faced by loved ones, including her husband. It's such a brave and authentic conversation and I'm really grateful to her for opening up about it to me.--Alex Jones: Making Babies is being broadcast on the W channel on Thursdays at 8pm. The channel can be found on Freeview, SkyTV and Virgin Media.--Failosophy for Teens: A Handbook for When Things Go Wrong by Elizabeth Day is my first ever book for young adults is out now, available here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodAlex Jones @alexjonesthomson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. My guest today is Alex Jones, one of the most trusted and familiar faces on our TV screens. Since 2010, Jones has co-presented The One Show, talking to a gallimawry of guests and discussing daily topics as random and diverse as bin collections and giant onions. Interspersed with celebrity interviews, everyone from Riz Ahmed to Hillary Clinton has been on their sofa. She was born in Carmarthenshire and grew up speaking both English and Welsh. As a child, Jones trained as a ballet dancer before going on to study theatre, film and television at Aberystwyth University. From starting out in children's television, she has moved on to presenting royal weddings, sport relief and

Eurovision, as well as competing in Strictly Come Dancing and becoming a mother of three. But her path to parenthood was not a smooth one. She had her first baby at 39, returning to work three and a half months later. She suffered a miscarriage before having her next two. Her youngest, a baby girl, was born when Jones was 44. Her experiences with fertility have informed her latest presenting job. Over the course of six months, Jones spent two days a week training as a fertility assistant at one of Britain's leading clinics. She performed ultracide scans, witnessed egg collections and embryo transfers, and saw firsthand the emotional toll that protracted IVF cycles can have on hopeful parents-to-be. The result, making babies, is to be screened on the W channel and is a must watch for anyone who, like me, has been through their own fertility challenges.

Alex Jones, it's such a pleasure to welcome you to How to Fail. I'm so flattered to be here. Honestly, I love this podcast, as you know, and just to have this conversation with you is really special. Thank you. and just to have this conversation with you is really special thank you well it means so much to me as well even if it's a bit intimidating interviewing someone who is so at the top of her own interviewing game are you joking but I'm going to swallow that intimidation and just get on with it but the other reason that it's intimidating in a way is because I was so blown away by your documentary making babies honestly I Honestly, I watched it. I sobbed. I laughed. I felt hope. And the most important thing I think is that I felt so seen because I felt my experiences were presented on screen in a way that I hadn't really seen before.

Now, I salute you for doing that. I don't know how you did it. How did it come about? I don't know how you did it. How did it come about? Thank you so much. I can't even bring myself to watch the first episode because unlike anything else that I've done, where I'm a big believer in watching things back because I think you only get better by watching things back. And it's really cringy sometimes,

but this one, I can't bear to watch any of it because it was so important to get it right and I still don't know whether I've managed that I mean what you've just said is so lovely and means the world to me honestly and especially as I know your journey as well and you know I've read about what you've been through which is horrendous and so the fact that you feel seen, that's what I really wanted. So it came about, they said, look, we've got access to this fertility clinic. And that was where it started. And then I sort of said, but it's a private clinic. And I'm not sure that's massively representative of, you know, the country. I said, can we look at somewhere where

there's private patients, but also, you know, somewhere I said can we look at somewhere where there's private patients but also you know somewhere where they where they deal with NHS patients as well and then eventually we ended up at King's in London a superb superb department that looks beautiful it's like an art gallery they're so lucky there and I for, really battled with, am I the right person to do this? I wanted to do it, but I thought, can I do this, being mother at the time to two children? And they said, we think because of your empathy and warmth, you are the right person to do it. And, you know, that was a huge compliment and I wanted to do it. And I said, okay, let's do it. And then I found out I was pregnant with Annie. Wow. I didn't realize that. Yeah. So I rang

them and said, guys, I'm pregnant. Intake of breath. And I said, I'm really sorry, but we cannot film. And they said, no, we can film. I said, we can film I said we cannot film it's not sensitive to be there as a pregnant woman when there's all these people's couples individuals going through egg freezing IVF you know donor the whole world of fertility I said it's I don't think it's sensitive to do that and they agreed actually then and said, okay, well, we'll wait until Annie's born. We'll push it back and then we'll start. So that's what happened. And for ages, I thought, gosh, I have to understand why I'm doing it. And I think it is because so many friends have been through years and years of fertility struggles. We didn't do

IVF, but it was not straightforward. I mean, if you start thinking about having a baby at 38, which stupidly, I hadn't thought about it before then. I just thought I was bulletproof in terms of fertility. It was never going to be that straightforward. And it wasn't. And I just wanted people, as you say, to feel seen and to feel heard, men and women. Because, you know, the common perception is oh we're struggling

to get pregnant well don't worry just have some IVF. 100% that was my perception when I had my first round of IVF and as you and I now both know that is not the case whatsoever and I also in my ignorance because I totally agree with you we don't know enough about our own fertility women and men and we need to be taught about it in schools alongside sex education 100 because I thought IVF was just taking a couple of pills here and there and had no idea about the injections now because of people like you, we live in an era where we're all much more savvy. But you're so right that there is such a scary amount of ignorance. And I say that non-judgmentally. It's just that we don't know what we don't know. No, it's the thing though, isn't it? So you are, you know, throughout school, throughout your teenage years, throughout your

20s, the main thing is don't get pregnant because that will mess up your career nobody at any point said but you want might want to think about it if you want a family because actually it is as important as a career some would say more I mean for some people it's not more important but you know it's there. And the minute you decide that you want to have a baby, oh my gosh, the tables turn. It's a 360, isn't it? And it's, that's all you can think about suddenly. And I thought it was a bit unfeminist in a way to even say I'm worried about my fertility because you're so busy carving out your career nobody wants to hear about the fact that you might want babies down the road and slowly I think it's shifting a bit but that perception is very much still there and I thought this is a chance to actually inform people educate

people about this is what the process involves if you do end up at an IVF clinic and also you might want to think about it earlier than you think. So when you started filming, how old was Annie? Four weeks. Shut up. Oh. So, oh my gosh, Alex.

Elizabeth, right. This gives it a whole like, I now think your bravery is even more extraordinary because you must have been raging with hormones and sleep deprivation. Well, the thing is, you know, I'll cry anyway at a drop of a hat. Me too. It's just me.

But Annie was really, really little. And because of the schedule and because they'd pushed it back, that was what was needed to happen. So I thought, well, I'm super lucky to have had Annie. All right, I'll take her with me. And there's a pub across the road, which some people who may be listening to this will know if they've been through that clinic. There's a pub across the road and upstairs in the pub, that was where I'd sort of go and feed Annie. Then I'd run back onto the ward and then the lovely team would call, the researcher would call and say,

Annie looks like she needs a feed. She's just woken. Can you pop back over? So I'd be running back and forth between the pub and the hospital. And then sometimes, you know, because it was really early days, my boobs would leak and I'd be in sort of scrubs with leaky boobs. Then I'd feel, oh gosh, this is inappropriate. Then it'd be like, right, I'm just going to change. So it was that thing where, you know, I was a new mum. I mean, not a first time new mum, but a new mum to Annie. And so all the home ones were there, but yet you're in a situation where you're dealing with patients and all they want to do is to experience what you're experiencing, but you can't talk about it. It was quite, yeah, it was quite a balancing act at the beginning. And tell us a bit about what you did on a day-to-day level,

because the first episode shows you meeting the consultant, who is really quite scary. I was like, wow, she's not getting an easy ride here. He really laid it out. I felt like what he was getting at was, you're not here as a famous presenter. I will expect you to do this work. And I was I was like wow and I thought you handled it very well but he must have been so intimidated well the thing about Saris as I love to call him is I mean he's such a nice man and you know watching him with patience he has got kindness dripping out of every pore. He just wants people to reach that end goal of having a baby.

And he's very realistic about what might happen, what the results can be, but he's just lovely. His patient care is like nothing I've ever witnessed before, but you're right. I mean, he lays it down the line. He's like, listen now, you are basically here to work for me. And you're going to start right at entry level, of course. And, you know, if I'm not happy, I'm going to tell you. But I really liked that. I mean, I didn't want to go in as a presenter. I didn't want the other fertility assistants, the other nurses, doctors, the lab workers to think of me in that way.

I didn't want to be a visitor. the lab workers to think of me in that way I didn't want to be a visitor I think if you're going to make a documentary like that that works and really tells the story you've got to get stuck in so I was glad that that was his sort of approach and it was it was hard work so you're in you're learning how to do observations when people have had egg transfers you're then learning how to take blood and you know there's a lot of blood taking to be done and then it was the sort of the chaperone side of things which I loved and what you need for that is much the same skills as you need in our jobs really which is empathy and connection and warmth and Charlie my husband said you're hilarious you've got a full-time job you've now got a new baby but okay let's take on another job let's become a fully trained embryologist

exactly but I was like but it's such a great opportunity and if this means that people are prepared when they go into IVF or or any of the other sort of facets of fertility that we show, then that's great. The program has done a job, I feel. It's so interesting hearing you talk about the consultant, because I definitely feel having been through the gamma of various fertility issues and treatments, that I'm now at a stage when I find the most helpful thing is pragmatism. Like that's how people can show their compassion. That's how the experts in the field show their compassion. I don't need sentimentality.

I don't need, oh, I'm so sorry. I need someone who says, well, that hasn't worked, so we'll try this. And who has a clear sighted plan of action. And actually you do see there are these beautiful moments where we are privileged enough as viewers to witness an embryo transfer, which I think is handled so beautifully in the documentary because it's made so clear that that is a sacred moment. Oh, I mean, I felt so incredibly privileged to be in the room. And your heart nearly stops. I mean, not many people will have been in that room when that happens, but it's basically the moment where the embryo is implanted

into the female. And then you see on the screen, you see this little, and it's just a tiny air bubble that signifies that the embryo is in the right place and it's sort of in the womb. And it means so much, doesn't it? That is essentially the beginning of life. You know, it's magical. And to be part of the team that was working with patients and able to just be there for these key moments, I just felt super lucky. What's the story that has stayed with you the most from that time? As you know, everybody's story is slightly different. And there was a lot of people who were, you know, there for the first time,

lots of people there for the last time. There was one lady, and I'm not sure whether you meet her in the first episode, Dr. Katie. And Dr. Katie is a pediatric doctor. And she has just had years and years of failed cycles, miscarriages. And imagine how unfair that seems when her life's work is to help other people mend their children. And all she wants is a child of her own. And in the end, she wanted to get her embryos screened because she said, you know, we're making embryos, but I'm miscarrying. And why is that? And because she was, I suppose, a medical background, you know, so she sort of, she didn't know this field, but she knew enough about the body to understand if I get them screened, there's a better chance maybe that it might work.

And she did. She went down that road. And there's a lot of controversy around that. But, you know, it works for some people. And in the end, she did have an embryo put back in and they grade them so in the lab they grade embryos and you know and it was a top supersonic top grade embryo and she fell pregnant and the baby is now here it's earth side and oh my god it makes me emotional just talking about it, but it's that desire for something that just isn't coming, you know. And I was nervous talking about this today, even though I've done the documentary, because I know

you are like some of the patients I met, you know, who just want a child, you know, and it's not happening. And to be in Katie's company and she's such a great girl really fun and you know she she said I just love children you know I fix them for a living and I just can't have my own and when she in this so then at the seven week point she had a scan just to make sure that there was a heartbeat and when we saw that little heartbeat I mean I I don't know I think I was more pleased than a husband to be honest this is amazing you know and now the baby's here there are a couple of things I want to say one is I love the way that you express that the baby is now earth side because there is such a beauty to that about the existence of a soul who is meant to be born that's how I choose to believe in things

but I also want to say please don't be nervous because I'm so glad that you did this documentary and I not that I was offered or would be ever but I wouldn't be able to do it because I'm still in it and I'm too emotionally attached and I wouldn't have been able to do the phenomenal job that you do of conveying what needs to be conveyed. And so actually I just really want to thank you. Because I also know that, and I mentioned it in the introduction, your path has not been smooth towards motherhood. And you have spoken about your miscarriage publicly. And I'm so grateful to you for that as well. And do have experience you have inordinate empathy and you're a phenomenal presenter so actually I think you're the best person to do it thank you I mean Dr Saris when

I brought up these concerns and he said you know Alex sometimes people who are in it actually like you said can't do the job because they're too close to it and he said so in my eyes you are the right person because you have a little bit of experience of you know I mean the whole massive complications that can occur when you try to get pregnant and I also think as well you know the point of wanting to be a mother you know what you and I share is that just that need to nurture and to care for another human and so whether that human is here or not that need and that want is what joins us all yes that's so beautiful and also something that I believe that that want that yearning that intent of thought is already making you into a

parent that that's part of the journey and I also want to say that the documentary looks at just lots of different kinds of families and couples and people who want to have babies and as we both know there's not just one path to parenthood and I want to pay tribute to all of those amazing people out there who choose different paths or who are contented without children and all of that. There's like a huge diversity. But this for me, as I said, just made me feel so seen and understood. And I can't wait to watch the rest of it. So thank you.

Oh, good. Thank you. Good. And also now you've got something to fall back on, haven't you? Well, this is the thing. I mean, I've got my plan B. Do you know what I mean? It was a bus driver before this, which is slightly less glamorous.

But I have got a bus license. Have you? Yes. How come? Oh, gosh. This is the coolest thing ever. So Chris Evans, who's a broadcaster slash absolute lunatic, and he's a good friend, so I can say that.

I need to absolutely be fine with it. He said, come on, Al, let's learn how to drive a bus. I said, why? And he said, because I've got this idea that we'll drive people who will pay to be driven in this bus, you know, as part of the, what's it called? It's sort of a race. It's London to Brighton. it's sort of a race it's london to brighton it's the vintage car race and he says so these people will pay to come the bus we'll take them to brighton they'll have a lovely lunch and there we are all for children in need so i said

like i always do all right then and we ended up learning how to drive this massive coach so you know coach trip the program on channel four yes oh I could have done that one of those coaches with a massive mic and day one we were going along this really busy road in sort of west London and I had no idea about spatial awareness I mean you know I'd never driven a coach before and we were straight on the road and of course I went to near a waitress lorry and knocked his wing mirror off which then went careering back into the cars behind luckily nobody was hurt but Chris's face was a picture he was sitting in the front row and he was like this might not have been a great idea but we passed that's amazing but also did the driver of the

waitress truck come out and talk to you and then was he like oh it's TV's Chris well he was like what the hell are you two doing in this bus I was like learning how to drive and he was like you've got quite a way to go then haven't you I'm so proud of you for passing I'm terrible at parallel parking let alone maneuvering a reverse a bus around the corner what's that about wow okay well listen that was a an unexpected tangent but I enjoyed it I think maybe you are the most multi-skilled tv presenter I've ever met nothing really useful you know but let's get on to your first failure actually no before we do I want to do that annoying interviewer thing and quote something back that I read but it was a relative values piece that you did with your mum for the sunny times magazine and your mum said that your

dad once told you there's no future in this media monarchy and nobody would want a Welsh speaker in London so I think you've proven him wrong was that the case when you were growing up that this this was so the case I mean I I never told anybody that I wanted to be a television presenter because I thought it's just so not going to happen to a girl who comes from southwest Wales that it's absolutely pointless. But, I mean, I remember watching Play School. Gosh, that's ancient me, isn't it? And thinking, that looks like a great job.

I mean, why wouldn't anybody want to do that but I kept it really quiet and I mean it's just mum and dad didn't work in media you know mum worked in the bank dad was sort of a sales rep and we just you know nobody'd been to uni in our family so this was a whole new world and then then mum and dad, I think dad said exactly that. You're doing, you want to do what? And I was like, dad, I'm just going to do drama. And he was like, what about law? You know, classic.

I was like, nah, it'll be fine. I said, look, it will be fine. And he said, I think it's wasting a chance. And I mean, dad is the loveliest man ever but it is just you know it was so foreign to them you know even if I would have mentioned a gap year I think they would have choked on my tea and biscuits and gone oh what sorry but you know first born you feel the pressure you know and we'll come on to that's part of one of the failures yes well we'll come on to that now actually because your first failure is your first job as a runner researcher you were fired twice twice but do you know what I did

which is not very me but I just kept going back on the Monday did you yeah I just thought well no I like this job and it's like not like a proper job so it was an independent television company. I'll set the scene. When I went for an interview, the boss interviewed me from the bath. And I sat on the stairs on the landing. What? Right. So rewind even more. Was it in his home? In his home.

Okay. That's very Winston Churchill. After my A-levels. Which you sat in Magaluf, invigilated by Davina McCall. That was my degree, yeah. That's insane. And you didn't even say that to me in any of your failures. But it's just my favourite fact about you.

Is that you were taking part in a reality TV show. So I was taking part in a game show called Prickly Heat. Oh, God. And so there was a Welsh team, a Scottish team, Northern Ireland team and an English team and there were about 60 of us under 24. Basically it's a knockout mixed with blind date on a beach Magaluf for I think it was about three weeks and it coincided with my finals. And so the university were like, you're not going. I was like, but why? I mean, you know, this is an opportunity.

And they were like, it's not. You're going to be on a game show. Anyway, after I sort of gone on and on and on at my form, not form, evening, at my year tutor, I said, please let me do it, you know. And she said, all right. And then they flew the papers out. So it's your finals, not your A-levels. My finals. And I sat in a gym at exactly the same time as my friends back in Wales.

And Davina was there going, right, you've got half an hour left. I mean, looking back at the time. And it's very me. I just thought, yeah, this is fine. But actually, that's surreal, isn't it? It's very surreal, but it makes for a great anecdote. And now we laugh about it. She's like, do you remember when you were doing your exams? I was like, yes. And all I wanted to do was be Davina. Yeah. So you sat your finals in that slightly

surreal setting. Sat my finals, then thought, oh, okay, maybe I'll do like a postgrad in journalism. oh okay maybe I'll do like a post-grad in journalism and Cardiff's got a brilliant journalism school and I don't know how because my only sort of journalistic inspiration was Kate Aidey we're so similar I'm sorry I want to be Kate Aidey I was exactly the same so I thought right I'll go there and it was this really grueling process to be accepted. And I thought, well, there's no way. And then I got a letter saying, you know, yep, you're accepted. And to this day, I never know whether I did the right thing, but I turned it down because at the same time, I was interviewed by this man in a bathtub with me sitting on the landing who ran an independent television company. And he was like, okay okay we'll take you on as a runner researcher and I thought well you know it was a bit of a

sliding doors moment I suppose but I went for the job because frankly I was very bored of you have insufficient funds and I just thought you know I want to start earning some money and it seemed like a good crowd it was like by Grove of the telly world I mean the people who owned the company were quite young the team were all quite young yeah it was good fun so I didn't do the postgraduate in journalism I went and worked for this company and oh my god did they regret taking me on why because you you seem to have such a great work ethic you really wanted it what went wrong I don't know I was 22 and I had I have had the job at 26 even I think it would have been a different kettle of fish again I had no money and they sort of gave me

jobs like look there's this conductor flying in we We are doing this documentary. We are running over, filming something else. You need to take him for lunch. And I was like, well, great. But I haven't got any money. So I bought him a Happy Meal and took him to the drive-thru. And he was like this world-famous conductor. And they were like, you? You did what?

I said, yeah, he was fine with it. We made the toy. You know, he was really happy. And he was like, oh, God. We made the toy. Yeah know, he was really happy. He was like, oh, God. We made the toy. Yeah, it was a composer called Hardy Nod, a Welsh composer who sadly passed away, but a lovely man.

And he was fine with a happy meal. So it was not even a full-on McDonald's. It was just a happy meal because I only had about three pounds. It was an insufficient funds day. So it just had to make do. And then there was Julian Lloyd Webber. We would do it.

It was the same series, classical music series. And I lost his cello. Can you imagine? What? How do you lose a cello, number one? Well. What was it? Is it slid down back of the sofa?

We were in Manchester in the big arena there. And the musicians were having a break. And he'd come out to take a phone call with his cello which was like a Stradivarius really expensive and he'd said will you watch my cello he said because I'm going to go over there to get some signal no problem but at the same time this car park attendant came from somewhere who was very good looking and we started having a little chat and when I turned around the cello had disappeared and I just oh I felt sick Elizabeth I can't even tell you I thought oh my god I mean oh had it been stolen no so luckily somebody had seen it and taken it back in and put it under the stage with all the other instruments. But it was like missing in action for a good few hours

because nobody could understand where it had gone to. Julian Lloyd Webber was furious. Eyebrows, he's got brilliant eyebrows, but they would go in at a million miles an hour. He was so cross and rightly so. But eventually we found it. And my boss was just like, right, you, this is not for you, this job.

Maybe we need to screen test you oh wow and that's and that presumably went really well so well better huh i mean it was better and they were looking for somebody to present on bbc choice which was this thing and lots of listeners will be thinking what is that but it was in the days where digital just started up and the bbc had this channel called choice and it was for a music program and so that's how it all started and then i about a week later they also said would you like to present a program like you did prickly heat but it's going to be called La Bamba. It's in Magaluf. And I was like, yes. So two series of being in Magaluf for a month. We got grounded the first time we went

because myself and the other presenter, we were only like 23. We thought this is great fun. We were out with the contestants every night, tried absinthe. And then they were like, you were in no state to film the next day so then we were grounded so every night after filming back to the hotel no going out for us but you know anyway it's almost a miracle I digress and then somehow I made it to the one show but I'm very interested in what you said about the happy meal you prefaced it by saying I didn't have any money so obviously I could only afford a happy meal that's a serious thing there because I don't know whether you think it's got better but I imagine unless you were someone with ready disposable family income who could potentially

you know sleep on a friend's sofa or live with your mum and dad where you needed to be it was clearly much more difficult for you to make it in television and I wonder if you still think that's the case in media today oh so hard isn't it yeah and I remember for years and years and years as soon as I'd done the screen test I thought this is it this is me I mean this is a job that feels because all these people who I'd taken to awful places for lunch or lost their cello or you know I locked King Charles in a toilet I mean that's a whole new different thing King Charles the King Charles yeah just like a fund of brilliant anecdotes oh my goodness but you know all these people you know I sort of

managed to turn around somehow and I thought well it's about having a connection with people isn't it and so for me presenting felt right when I was allowed to chat to people I mean links interviews that were scripted for me and this lasted until gosh even five years ago didn't feel comfortable but you know those moments when you're just having a chat with somebody it felt oh I think I can do this job, you know? And so I thought, right. And I'd always had this thing where I'm really proud to be Welsh and I loved my upbringing, really happy, you know, childhood, but I wanted to live in London. I was obsessed. And it was only from going to see Phantom of the Opera, I suppose, you know, on one trip or maybe a trip to the natural history where we'd go on a bus and you'd get to Marble Arch and you'd think, this is it, I've made it.

But I was obsessed with wanting to live in London. And so I wrote to absolutely everybody you can think of, the head of Blue Peter, the head of data and the head of everything. And I had maybe two letters back out of about, I don't know, 200. And you haven't got any money. So, you know, I was working for, I think, something like 40, 50 pounds a day. I mean, nothing really. And I remember doing the first few screen tests in London because he's trying to put a show reel together and it's really expensive and all the rest of it.

And I remember having to phone mum and say, Mum, I got here, but now my card has been declined I can't get home and she'd have to transfer money and that was even when I'd started presenting in London I did a show called Rise I don't know whether you remember it was a breakfast show yeah I remember it and I was the entertainment correspondent I went out with one of the guys who was one of the presenters. TBD after this. Oh. Yeah. Maybe it's the same one. Rick Edwards?

No. Okay, fine. Similar. Similar. They went on to do a show together afterwards. Oh, who's... Steve Jones. Oh, of course. Okay.

And there's a big story there. Tell me. Steve and I were together for a long while from this independent company that we'd both worked for. And we both sort of started presenting with. So we presented a program called the Pop Factory together. Anyway, I thought he was, I mean, and he is super handsome. I was the good girl. He was a bit naughty.

And I thought, oh, he's brilliant. And we used to have a right laugh together. Anyway, I started presenting on Rise, doing the kind of junkets and stuff. And I was staying with him in London because he was already presenting a few other bits. Can't remember. Details are very vague at that age, aren't they, due to the cheap wine. But they rang one day and sort of said, you know, is Alex there? And he answered the phone and he said, oh, who is it?

And they said, oh, it's so-and-so from Rise. We needed to interview Angelina Jolie tomorrow. And he went, oh, she's not here, but I'm free. Wow. Well, that was the end of that. So he did it. Oh my goodness. And yeah, he went on to do T4 and all the rest of it.

That's wild. And I went back to Cardiff fuming. I'm not surprised. I mean, we made up after that. Okay. Yeah, we laugh now. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online.

It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris.

And me, Peyton Dix. The host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry.

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can I just ask you then about one of the things that I love which I feel is like a thread through these hilarious self-effacing anecdotes is the power of owning mistakes that you make yes because I think that mistakes and failures have that capacity. They reveal the real you. And you are so authentic. I know that's an overused word now, but that's what makes you an amazing presenter. Do you agree? Thank you. Well, I think mistakes are good and failures are good because I think sometimes it's sort of like a superpower to have a little mistake here and there, because it makes you recalibrate and it makes you go, right, I am not going to do that again. You know, I need to be better at it. And I'm quite good at getting up, dusting myself off and going, right, I'm going to do things properly from now on. And I, you know, I learned from that mistake and move forward. You know, if everything's plain sailing, you rarely get

anywhere. You know, you need these peaks and troughs, I think, in order to learn about yourself more than anything else. I've done some super cringey things, but all of it adds to the whole thing of what I am today. And I'm not embarrassed about it. You I mean I walked Swansea High Street dressed as a dolphin to promote dolphin friendly tuna um when I used to do promo work you know like many people who do my job now used to do back in the day to get some money you know when I was on holiday in uni and actually so what yeah that's a bit embarrassing but I realized then I don't want to be doing this forever you know and you harder. Every mistake pushes you a little bit more and makes you reassess and think, right, I can be better than that. Could not agree more. It's almost as if

I briefed you to say exactly what I want you to say, which is the entire ethos of this podcast. Before we get onto your second failure, will you tell us the King Charles story? Yeah. So working for an independent television company company they had had a grant to become somewhere that helped sort of youth in that area it's a very deprived area in the valleys in South Wales and they'd had this grant to create this place that would sort of help to train people in media to give them a step up and an opportunity and so King Charles, Prince Charles at the time was coming to open it and oh we were like maniacs that morning, everybody was in the car park picking up empty crisp packets and cigarette butts because lots

of people smoked then, you know we were all on best behavior and they said right you are to stand in reception when they come in and sort of line up and all the rest of it and this particular building was by a river and the river had a bit of a stench to it and the stench would come in through the window in the men's loo so I took the initiative and thought'm going to lock the door because we don't want him going in there because it's a bit smelly. So off I went to get the key and came back, locked the door. Fine. Then there was this massive sense of panic. I said, what's wrong?

They're like, we don't know where he is. He's disappeared. Prince Charles has actually disappeared. And I was like, well, there must be an aid or something that knows where he is and he's like no we can't find him either oh weird weird anyway this went on for a bit and then this knocking i thought oh shit that knocking is coming from inside the men's loo and of course there he was in the i'd locked it as you know he'd obviously gone in as i'd gone to get the key that's it was he with his aid in the loo in with his aid in the loo

that's and what was it like when he came i mean he was lovely to be fair i mean i've always got his back because i you know i feel so awful and he's's a very nice man. And he just saw the funny side. Well, thank goodness he let him out. Imagine how the course of modern British history could have been different if he was still in there. Do you think you'll be in The Crown? When they get to that point, they'll have someone playing you. Yeah, maybe it'll be Meghan. She's looking for a job and she'll Netflix.

Moving on. Moving on. Moving on. Your second failure is your failure to say no. Yes. And the fact that you're an investor at People Pleaser. Now, there are going to be so many people I know for a fact who relate to this failure. When for you do you think it started? Do you think it started very young? Oh, probably it's about age three, two. I mean, mum and dad and mum and dad say now, and I think I really appreciate the fact that they're so open about it. But they said, you know, we were too harsh on you. You were our first child. And we turned you into a shy child, because it was, you know, it was all about behaving well and all of this. behaving well and all of this. And they said, we were really hard on you. But I was also a people pleaser from age zero. And so, you know, I was first child, first born. And I think you do feel a pressure. I mean, my sister is completely off the rails. She's not really. She's lovely. And

she's got a brilliant job. And she's amazing., you know, she literally danced to her own tune. And I was the good girl. You know, I wouldn't put a foot wrong. I did what was expected. I worked hard in school to the point where they would say, have a break. Have a break, Al. You know, I wasn't hugely academic. I was all right in school, but I had to work at it.

You know, and I enjoyed studying and I knew, even from a young age, I need to work hard if I want to work at it you know and I enjoyed studying and I knew even from a young age I need to work hard if I want to get anywhere I sort of did what was expected of me and did you and do you need people to like you I do okay yeah isn't it awful it is awful and it's a constant it's like a life struggle because it leads you into places that you don't want to be but also it feels so horrible when there's conflict because you're going to have to say something to someone or you feel like you've let someone down or someone has taken against you on social media and says that you've done the wrong thing my default I don't know about you is always to believe first of all that they're right oh

that's my first percent yeah and I guess it's this thing I don't want to be like that but I just am like that and so I end up over promising overstretching myself my margins of time are so unrealistic I think well yeah if I just I'll go there and then I can quickly do that. And then I'll get there just in time. And I'm always late as a result because I've over-promised because I don't like letting people down, but it comes from a good place. But even in work, you know, or at home, I'm the same, you know, even with the children, because I don't feel I'm there enough because I'm working. Will you read my story tonight, says Ted.

Yes, even though I think, oh God, I'm going to be super knackered and it'd be so much easier if he was in bed. And then I think as well, because I feel so incredibly lucky to have had them. And that's part of the thing, you know, I don't want to miss moments. So that's part of it as well. So it's guilt. It's guilt. And I've got a real zest for life. So I don't want to miss experiences and I think so if I say yes to everything but then that coupled with people pleasing I mean I'm exhausted I know I know I relate hard and that thing of life being so precious so you want to take all of the opportunities that are offered

to you but how do you distinguish between that and having focus and purpose and boundaries that can protect that, can protect your creative energies? Definitely. And I've got better as I've got older because I think, you know, a confidence comes as you get older. But even going back to when I started on The One Show, I was trying to fit a mold that wasn't me. I didn't change my accent because I can't and I don't mind it. But the questions that were coming out of my mouth because interviews were being written for me and I thought, oh my gosh, I don't even say words like this. I mean, I don't even know what some of these words mean. And then, you know, but if you're trying to remember questions and it's just a list of questions that is not a conversation or a chat and so I had to very quickly find the confidence to go I'm really sorry I know you

want me to say it like this but it doesn't sound like me and if you've hired me then it's going to have to be authentic otherwise this is going to fall apart really really quickly because I thought well I'm interested in this person but these aren't the questions that I would ask. I mean, I couldn't even form some of the words in my mouth. I was like, what does this even mean? And so it took a while for me to say, right, guys, let me write my own questions. And if you disagree with them, if you think they're really shit,

you can tell me, but let me have a go. Isn't that interesting, though, that the way that you've expressed that to me, you've done it in such a lovely way, and you've bracketed it with lots of mitigation like it's probably a shit idea I'm so sorry. Oh god that's so me. And it's very me too and I went through a similar experience which was nowhere near as high profile as the one show I can't even imagine the stress around that I want to come back to it but I joined the Observer as a feature writer when I was 29 and it was my dream job and most of the other feature writers were older than I was. And I really looked up to them and they were so clever. And I tried to write like them. I tried to be

cleverer than I was. I tried to be more serious than I was. And it just didn't fit and it didn't connect. And I never felt fully myself. And at the same time as I was doing that, I was also writing novels where I was inventing these characters that I was able to inhabit. And one of the characters I invented was this bombastic billionaire, a man. And he walked around the world as if he owned it. And I was like, if I can do that in my imagination,

why am I writing these emails saying, I'm so sorry, I'm such a loser. Like, if you have a moment, would you consider this idea? And I'm so sorry for'm such a loser like if you have a moment would you consider this idea and I'm so sorry for bothering you and it was a really interesting life lesson and I decided to imagine myself into the skin of this fictional character just five percent worth of his arrogance but it's taken me such a long time you know now I feel comfortable in who I am and sometimes I'm not as eloquent as they want me to be or you know maybe I want to be you know, now I feel comfortable in who I am. And sometimes I'm not as eloquent as they want me to be or, you know, maybe I want to be. You know, but I just think at least people know where they are with me. Yes.

You know, I just am who I am. And therefore, you can't really go that wrong when you get to that point. Because, and life is so busy. God, I haven't got any time to invent anybody else. It's just, this is, this is it. But even sometimes I do get moments where I think, oh, I'm not enough. I need to speak in a different way at this event. I need to dress in a different way. You know, it happens to us all, I think, to some extent, but you'd think by 45 that that wouldn't be a thing anymore. And it still is a thing.

Interesting. I still compare myself. I still think, oh, God, but, you know, oh, look at her dress. Oh, God, you know, I haven't put enough effort in. Or I don't know what it is. But, you know, most of the time I'm really happy in my own skin. but people pleasing and following somebody else's rules have definitely made that process a lot harder and a lot slower you know because I've I've done what other people think is expected of me rather than actually what I wanted yeah and you probably didn't know what you wanted to do

half the time because you were too busy yeah and can And can I ask what that's like when you do have such a public facing profile, when you are on TV every night, when people recognize you in the street? Is that a difficult thing to manage? Do you have strategies to manage it? Well, what happens normally when I meet somebody in the street, they start talking to me like they see me every day so I'll be in the chemist or in a bank and somebody will say oh gosh how are you I haven't seen you for a long time and I'll be thinking oh I have no idea who you are and then I'll be rattling like racking my brains going how do I know this person how do I know this and then just at the moment I think this is going to be awful they say oh my god I don't know you at all sorry I feel like I know you? And then just at the moment, I think this is going to be awful. They say, oh my God, I don't know you at all.

Sorry, I feel like I know you because I see you every day. And I think, isn't that lovely? And then I think, oh, amazing. Well, they're happy with me just being me. And that is the biggest compliment. So I love having a chat with people because I feel super lucky. It's all I

ever wanted all this time. And now people are saying, oh God, I feel like I know you because I watch you every night. Well, what a compliment. And how do you navigate social media? I'm not very good at social media. I feel like 87 years old when I try to post a story it takes me about half an hour but you know social media I mean luckily I get pretty nice messages there's nothing terrible there but you know now and again there'll be what are you wearing you know or why did you ask that question and those are the comments that do stand out yes you know sadly but really when it comes down to it the people who matter to me are my parents my sister my group of girls that I've known all through school and uni who are still my friends my husband he is so grounding and he's my sort of compass when I go

I don't know if I'm doing you know know, do you think it was all right? Oh, for God's sake, don't start this. It was brilliant. Or he'll say, it was all right, but be better next time. You know, he doesn't pull any punches. And if he thinks it's all right, I think, oh, it must be all right then. You know, he's a huge supporter, but he hasn't got time for fluff. I think you're amazing.

And I'm not just saying that. I think you're amazing and I'm not just saying that I think you're absolutely brilliant at what you do you are so gifted and you are so real and authentic and warm and funny and clever and I want you to remember that the next time you have a moment of self-doubt. Can I take you everywhere with me from now on? Yes you absolutely can but I know because I know what you mean about the the mean comments sticking in your head and I find it still happens but what has been helpful is that it's I find it quicker to metabolize now yeah partly because as you say it takes time to nurture those cornerstone relationships to have those people that you know you can always rely on to see you as you really are. That takes time to

build that. And so the older I've got, I wouldn't say the easier it's become, but the better I think I can deal with it. Yeah, completely. I think you do, you know, you gain confidence as you gain years. Yes, yes. You know, and you gain a little bit more respect as well. And that helps to balance some of the more ridiculous comments that you know, actually, are, you know, they've come from somebody who's mean spirited. And actually, it shouldn't affect you in any way or form. But it does. We're all human. I mean, nobody's made of steel. Nobody's made of steel. Before I get onto your final failure, I want to ask you, it's probably quite a lazy question and I don't want to generalise horribly by gender, but do you think male TV presenters are sitting here having these kinds of conversations?

No, no, they don't care. I mean, there might be some, and I think maybe it's unfair to say, you know, you know, there's a blanket no that they don't. But I think the media love to play us off against each other. And that narrative is so boring. And I just hate it. We're all just there trying to get through each day. And you know, some days are amazing, because lots of us get to do jobs that we love. And we're so lucky. And we have families who we love and support us and all the

rest of it. And you know, life is generally fun, isn't it? It's not bad. I mean, it's great. I love life. But I think sometimes people don't like that it's fun and it's great and they like to bring you down. And it's just, I suppose it's the mean world in which we live really you know there's this thing where they they pit women against women and it's a horrible thing the media yeah yeah yeah and it's it's not helpful and it's not conducive and you'd think that we'd moved past that by now you would have hoped but I don't feel we have it's still there yeah I always remember as a kind of young reporter being sent to interview a breakfast tv presenter and the narrative was always let's find out what fights they're having with the other female breakfast tv presenter and

that was just an unquestioned narrative that went into every single piece that was ever written about that program and I agree with you why is it harder to believe that people have more in common and get on better than the other than the alternative I don't know at all I mean Emma Willis lovely Emma Willis has done a few shows with me we for years have had two women on the sofa and it's been lovely absolutely fine but only very recently have there been two men on the sofa because nobody could quite get their head around that even though Ant and Dec but they sort of come as one yeah yeah they do that's so interesting I hadn't even thought of that I thought of Claudia and Tess being what an incredible thing to see an all

female duo doing a prime time entertainment show but yeah but when you think about it you'll hang on a minute apart from sport programs but when on say an entertainment show or in a daytime show it's quite rare that you see two men why is that i don't know we should ask the question what's going on let's get on to your final failure because i want to give it its due and its space thank you so much talking about this it's your failure to really understand mental health and your quest to be much better at it oh my gosh and i you know what i really thought for so long about, am I going to open a huge can of worms here? But I think it's important. So here we go. So, you know, we're surrounded now by,

which is brilliant, people talking about mental health and podcasts about mental health. But I still don't know whether I really understand it enough. And this comes from somebody who, you know, twice on two big occasions. So I used to be with somebody who was just the loveliest person, but he was really struggling mentally. And I look back now and it's one of my biggest regrets, because we used to have these huge fights. And I'd be like, why? Just get up. What are you doing? What are you doing? Just get out of bed. You need to start working. And of course, poor man was at the end of his tether. But this was, I mean, this is going back now 15 years. And the difference on how far we've come between then and

now is huge, isn't it? But I'm so cross with myself. And if I see him, I always say I'm so sorry about that period, because I should have realized that it was something that he couldn't control. But I didn't. And I feel so awful about it because we had these massive fights and he just shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. And I'm hardly, you know, the most hardcore person, you know, I'm, you know, I'm not, I'm not mean spirited, but I couldn't understand why this person seemingly couldn't get their act together. And I feel awful about that. And, you know, now, and I, and I looked into it and I read loads about mental health and depression to try and get a handle on it. But I was brought up in a house,

you know, in the sort of early eighties with mum and dad who were very practical people. And the attitude was, you just get on with it. And that really shapes you, I think, as a person. And I think a lot of us are scared to say that, you know, we all feel like we've got to be kind of, oh yeah, we get it, you know, but do we really get it? Yes. You know, or do we get it enough? And then, I mean, it's my husband's own story to tell, so I won't go into detail, but he suffers with his mental health and we've just been through a really bad period where he's he bless him he had Lyme disease and then he had viral meningitis lots of things happened recently you know Charlie's super fun but he became a shadow of himself he was so ill he really went downhill fast mentally and, I found myself at a loss thinking,

oh my God, I don't know what to do here. And I think we all talk a good game, but do we actually know how to help people? Yeah. I think you're making such an important and nuanced point, and I don't want to lose any of it. Before I ask you more about it, how is Charlie now? He's good. He's had a lot of help. You know, he's coming up the other side, but you know, he dips. I mean, there's peaks and troughs, you know, but he's, yeah, he's much better. I mean, I thought I was losing him, you know, as in not actually losing him. But I thought, oh my God, where is he? I can't see him. I was looking at him and I'm thinking, I'm, you know, I'm looking and hearing somebody who's not my husband. And he said, you know, Aldis has been in our family ever since I was a boy. You know, I'm used to it. This is what happens. And we've had long conversations. Gosh, we talk and talk and talk. That's always been our

relationship. And he tries to explain it. And I said, do you think I'm a terrible person because I don't quite get it? And he says, no, but because you're trying to get it, he says, you know, I love you for that. But he said, it is very hard to fully understand it. And we, you know, I listened to lots of podcasts where depression is discussed at length. And some of the time I feel, but if you're really depressed, and I've seen it in the last few months, you're not all right enough to be on a podcast. That's the last thing you want to do. And I'm confused as to where we are.

I agree with you. That must have been such a scary place for you. The person who has to hold it together, the person going through it it that's a horrendous experience terrible and it has a knock-on effect for the person who is seeking to help who doesn't know how to do it who is looking after the children who that's a really really big thing to go through well you feel the pressure don't you because suddenly you're the breadwinner you feel the pressure, don't you? Because suddenly you're the breadwinner, you're the parent who is functioning, you know, just life admin is your now responsibility. Plus the person you love most is falling apart in front of you and you're trying to piece them together without proper understanding of how best to go about that. proper understanding of how best to go about that and luckily we had loads of people who could ask for advice and I was like I don't know what to do can you help me and brilliant people have helped

and have guided me but without them I don't know where we would be and I just think it's spoken about and it's still not given the weight it deserves yeah I think there's a conflation of so many things. There's a media version and then there's a reality. And they are two massively different things. And I also feel, you and I grew up in the 80s, I was called a worrier. I wasn't called someone with anxiety. I just worried a lot. And so it's been a re-education of my language.

Same. Yeah. And then, but I think there's another issue here which is that quite often in the media landscape we talk about anxiety is this sort of generalized umbrella term and within that term there's extreme mental health issues there's schizophrenia there's bipolar that's a completely different category which should absolutely not be under that generalized umbrella and actually it does it a disservice and i worry that it takes attention away from really severe difficult mental health conditions for people to live with for their families to live

with because it's diverting attention to things that are easier for a media landscape to cope with with you know feeling a bit anxious one day. That's a completely different category. And I think what you're getting at is that we lose that really important nuance sometimes in the amount of conversation we have. Definitely. And then I'm torn as well, because I think, gosh, I'm glad that all these conversations are happening, because it does help people to check in with friends to check in with their children to check in with their parents and just just be a little bit more aware of how everybody's doing mentally which is a brilliant

thing but at the same time I'm like you know the thing is you do have some down days and where's the tipping point because you know if I don't know one of the children came home when they were a bit older and said you know I'm not feeling great you know you don't want then a label to be put on that child that then makes them feel even sadder about the situation yeah so I'm in a weird place with it I've seen it how it manifests in a very serious way and at the same time I'm just like oh it deserves so much weight but talking about it all the time but not talking about it quite in the right way I don't know whether that's dangerous as well yes I understand what you're saying I'm I'm so glad you've got through it. And I am so thankful that you're sharing this because it's

immensely powerful. Well, I'm not doing it very well because I feel so nervous talking about it because I know it's such a big thing, but I just want to really say, I don't understand enough about it. And that was a hell of a shock thinking that I live in this world where I'm, I work in media. I thought I'm going gonna be prepared for this if it comes and I wasn't yes it sounds like part of what you're saying is we're using the fact that we're having lots of conversations as a sticking plaster and actually there's work to do beyond the conversation see I need you in so many ways. That's exactly what I mean. Okay.

And I agree with you. I really, really agree with you. And that's why I think what you're saying is powerful because we can be surrounded by the noise of it. And that's wonderful because it does mean that people are more open. It does mean that you can come on How to Fail and talk about it in a way that, you know, in 1985, we might not have been,

well, podcast didn't even exist, number one. But we wouldn't necessarily have been having this conversation. So the fact that we are in an environment where we can have it is great. But there is so much work to be done beyond that. Work to help people like Charlie, people like your former boyfriend, people like you and your kids who are having to live through this. And I wouldn't go into detail because Charlie's super private. But I think it's worth sharing just, you know, it knocks you for six as a family. Yes.

And as you say, not just the person going through it, but the person that then has to deal with the fallout of the whole thing. Yes. It's full on. Yeah, it's full-on yeah and you know I've I've watched listened read about people discussing it and I think Christ on a bike you need to come over to our house because that is not what's going on here it's not about just talking therapy straight away you know we needed a lot more before we could even get to that point you know and not not with Charlie necessarily but you know my past experience and I didn't realize it and I couldn't help that

person and now I feel so sick about it because I mean it was debilitating for him and I couldn't I was stuck in kind of you know my mum's kind of mindset of, oh, for goodness sake, come on. Can we not get on with this? I feel down some days. It doesn't mean I'm depressed. Come on, tomorrow's going to be better. And I feel awful for just being like that when now we understand a lot more about it. But the fact that you feel awful means that you're doing the work, But the fact that you feel awful means that you're doing the work, number one. Secondly, you've also seen him subsequently and apologised. And thirdly, we were living in a completely different cultural landscape then.

We genuinely were. The vast majority of us didn't have the language, wouldn't have had the language. And so I think you need to be less hard on yourself with that. Yeah, well. But I wonder if I could ask you this. If anyone is listening and is going through something similar to what you've outlined, they're seeing a loved one go through this and they're feeling in the depths of it, what piece of advice, if anything, would you give them? Well, I mean, the only advice I can give is what we did and seek professional help because I didn't feel equipped to. So I just went really gently. I let him have the time. And you do feel frustration, you know, especially when you don't realize the magnitude of it you know you do feel because you think oh my god well okay I'll sort everything else out while this is going on but then you you very quickly see oh gosh this is you know super serious

and I just went very very gently as I said we we do talk a lot as as a couple that's what sort of drew us together you know so we talked it through a lot and I said I I'm worried because I'm not sure I feel equipped to know how to help and he said if you can just do the research and find the best person and it's hard isn't it because the NHS are backed up beyond belief and having worked for the NHS as part of the documentary you know I'm such a big fan and I would happily if my life panned out in a different way move over to work for the NHS but but the reality is they are backed up people can't get appointments who desperately need appointments especially in the mental health sector and you know we're lucky because we could pay and get help quicker but I think the only way to approach it is professional

I also think that point about him saying to you could you do the research for me is really valuable I remember there was a point in my fertility journey where I felt so overwhelmed and down about it and my best friend said why don't I look into it for you I was like that would be amazing she did a google deep dive she came back there was this whole it was effectively like such a well-researched spreadsheet and actually that taking that from someone's plate can be so helpful yes I think that's the most key thing you can do and come back armed and well, look, what I found is probably the first step is we need to go to the GP. Then these are the people I've got three options for you. These is a little bit of

background on these people. Do you think you want to ring any of these people and have an initial chat? And he was like, well, this person sounds a bit more like somebody I could open up to. So it was just a process and me taking the legwork out of it for him is, I think, what saved it in the end. And also the fact that you're now sitting here and you as a family have got through it. And who knows if it will happen again. You are so much better equipped

and so much more emotionally resilient in many ways. And I think that that's also such a positive for anyone listening to take away from it that you are here well it's a topic we are so petrified of talking about for fear of saying the wrong thing and that is very me especially as my you know as we've talked about being a people pleaser I sit in the safe camp a lot of the time you know even the show, sometimes I want to express an opinion, but I think that is not what people want to hear. They want me to be the girl next door. And sometimes I don't say what I think. And that's part as well of why we're employed at

the BBC. You don't express opinions. But with this, I just felt it was something I needed really to get off my chest. And I knew you would deal with it beautifully. And it felt like a safe place to do that. I'm truly honoured that you've trusted me with it. I promise not to betray that trust. And what you've just done is literally life-saving. So thank you, thank you, thank you.

And I am in awe of you. I really am. I already was before this interview, but now it's just... Not Elizabeth Day. That's mega. Stop. I have loved this episode so much.

I actually think it's one of my favourite ever. And I'm just so impressed at how multi-talented you are. Qualified bus driver, locker-in loser royalty, embryologist. I'm a chancer just tv presenter researcher woman who sat her finals invigilated by davina mccall you are a joy to know thank you so so much alex honestly it's been a huge pleasure and it and such a lovely experience You are the best interviewer. Don't you dare say that.

I feel like an absolute fake. You are next to you. Shut up. No, stop. That's the imposter syndrome. We have to stop doing. You are the best interviewer. And I will tell you that every day.

You can carry me around in your pocket. Yeah, I'm going to take you everywhere. You're brilliant. brilliant. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.