How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S16, Ep3 How To Fail: Yusra Mardini - how a teenage Syrian refugee became an Olympic swimmer against unimaginable odds

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

I can't find the right words to do enough justice to Yusra Mardini's story. I think it's best that you just listen to the episode. Suffice it to say, she's one of the most impressive people I've ever met. Yusra grew up in Damascus. When war broke out, she and her sister embarked on a perilous journey to Germany to seek asylum. En route, they nearly died when the dinghy they were using to cross the Aegean sea had an engine failure. Yusra and her sister Sara - both competitive swimmers - jumped overboard and helped to pull the boat to safety, saving all 18 people on board.Yusra went on to compete in the 2016 Olympics, to become the youngest ever UNHCR Goodwill Ambassador and to publish a memoir that has now been made into a Netflix movie, The Swimmers.Listen now to hear Yusra telling her story. It's unbelievably powerful.--The Swimmers is available to watch on Netflix--Choose Love does amazing work for refugees. If you'd like to donate or learn more, please visit their website here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodYusra Mardini @yusramardini Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Often on How to Fail, I am lucky enough to speak to guests who move or enlighten me. If I'm really lucky, I get to speak to someone whose very presence feels like an honour. Today is one of those occasions. Yusra Mardini is an Olympic swimmer who competed in Rio 2016 and Tokyo as part of the refugee team. But it's her story leading up to the Olympics, which is even more extraordinary. Yusra grew up in a suburb of Damascus. Along with her sister, Sara, she was trained by her father as a competitive swimmer. When war broke out in 2011, their comfortably middle-class life changed dramatically. The Mardini's house was destroyed. Their father was tortured by paramilitaries in a case of mistaken identity. Yusra narrowly missed being

killed when a rocket-propelled grenade smashed through the roof of the sports centre into the pool where she was swimming. In 2015, Yusra and Sara embarked on the perilous journey to Germany to seek asylum. Having reached Turkey, they paid a smuggler to take them to Greece by boat. 15 minutes after setting off from shore, the overcrowded dinghy's motor failed. Faced with the prospect of sinking, Yusra, her sister, and two other men got in the water and pushed and pulled the boat through for over three hours until the group reached Lesbos. From there, Yusra and Sara spent 25 days traveling on foot through Europe until finally reaching a refugee camp in Berlin. All 18 people in the boat survived, and the Mardini family

was eventually reunited in Germany. Yusra was subsequently appointed the youngest ever UNHCR Goodwill Ambassador. She has published a memoir, Butterfly, from refugee to Olympian, and her life has been made into a stunning film, The Swimmers, currently available on Netflix. Yusra Mardini, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you so much. It is such a pleasure to be sitting here speaking to you after retelling your story in such a short space of time and what you lived through can't ever be put into words but when I watched The Swimmers on Netflix I was so incredibly moved by it I think it's a beautiful piece of work I wanted to start by asking you a question that I'm sure you've been asked a lot. What's it like for you watching that film? Yeah, I mean, honestly, I did not like when I did everything when I crossed and when I started

swimming, when I dreamt of going to the Olympics, I never thought that the story will be turned into a movie. I just was very passionate about swimming. Me and my sister decided to leave because we wanted to have a peaceful life. now the movie's out and it's really a surreal moment for me like when I watched the movie I just had a moment to reflect until like I did go through all of that it was just crazy to think okay I was only 17 years old when I left and now I'm 24 I've been to two Olympics I spoke and I brought lots of awareness to refugees it reminded me of my relationship with my sister it made me feel homesick as well because I miss my country it made me feel sad to see again what refugees go through

but in general I was proud that there is this type of movie on Netflix as a first. Did it feel like you watching the actress play you? It did. It did. Like, I really wanted to criticize whoever was going to play me. I was really ready to do that. But she was so kind and she was so smart. Like, she came to me before I started filming. She came to me to Hamburg.

I was living in Hamburg back then. And she came and she wanted to know everything, but not in an uncomfortable way. She just was curious. She wanted to meet me before I started filming. And in the first few minutes, it was like, oh yeah, what do you do? What do you study and everything? And then the next two hours, after two hours, we felt like we knew each other since years. And we are very similar. We are very passionate about what we do. And she did an incredible job. I really, really am proud of her.

Yeah. I'm very aware that in asking some of the questions I'm going to ask you, you are being put in a position of reliving a very traumatic part of your life. And I wanted to ask you how you deal with that I honestly do not talk about the story a lot outside of you know my workspace I would say because my story became also a part of my my work what I do with UNHCR how I advocate for refugees my story became basically something that I bring awareness about refugees with it's not just about my story that's exactly the same with the movie when we decided to share this story we decided to share it because we wanted people to understand that there are millions of refugees

going through the same story but in general it's really hard like in the same moment I wouldn't feel it and I'll be like oh amazing the interview went amazing and then a few days later when I go back home I might get sick because you know you're like always telling your mind that you're fine it's okay and then your body reacts differently and that happened I was like a few weeks ago actually a week ago to be precise or even less I was in New York. And I did a lot of media and I was speaking about the story like really intensively. And then I went back home and I got sick because obviously it is traumatic for me to speak about it and it's emotional. But I know that the impact the story is going to make is it's really, really big.

And I have an amazing team where like if I don't feel well I can speak to them I can speak to my family I did therapy for a while but not right now and I have also great friends where I can talk to them about as well yeah I preface this next question with that and so I feel bad that I'm going to ask you about it but thank you for being generous enough to share your story because I think that one of the things that is so powerful about your story and so powerful about how it's been portrayed in this movie is that it shows the reality of something that for many of us we will read about in a newspaper or we'll see a report on the news but we don't get the feeling of like an individual

going through that. And all of the tiny decisions, the tiny choices you're forced to make along the way. And for me, one of the most powerful bits of the film was when you are sitting on the shore waiting for the people trafficker to turn up. And then you see this boat. And it's so unseaworthy. And it's all patched up and one family refuses to get on the boat what was that like that's such a stupid question but when you see that boat and you're like well this is now my life through no choice that I've made this is something that

because of war I've been forced into and I've got to get in this boat it must have been so terrifying yeah in general there there has been lots of movies made about about the topic and about refugees and about the news and what's happening with refugees and I do agree that people you know feel sad for two seconds and then like change the channel or put the newspaper on the table and walk away that's why the movie has a you know a little taste of entertainment as well me and my sister if you sit around in a room with us we are very entertained like really we would entertain you just by having a conversation me and her because that's just our personalities and we do have sort of a type of humor I guess the movie portrayed the whole story very in an amazing way and the

most important thing about this movie is that you can relate with it. And that's something very important because we all get excited when we get to be related to anything. Like when we watch on the screen, we're like, you can relate with the sibling story as two sisters going through a lot.

You can relate with the German coach story, being a coach. You can relate to the parent story. You can relate with the German coach story, being a coach. You can relate with the parents' story. You can relate to being a refugee or maybe the person that is helping the refugees. But yeah, I do agree that it is tough, but I've been lucky enough that the story got famous after the Olympics. And I know that the story is special, but to me, my story is special but to me my story is just one of out of a million stories so to me I have been lucky that my story is featured and that I can make an impact and I do have a strong voice and I really believe that it's because I've been authentic since day one and I didn't really try

to force anything like I said no to making a movie in the beginning. And I, when I was approached, I was like, you know what, I've dreamt about the Olympics my whole life. And that's what I'm going to do right now. And people in Hollywood were like, no one's going to be interested about the story anymore after Rio. And I was like, fine, I want to swim. So yeah, in general, it is really difficult. And we wanted to share the story to bring awareness, obviously, about it it if i can take you back to that moment in the aegean sea where you decide to jump overboard and then you are swimming in very rough waters for three hours i think it was yeah what got you through that they tell you in the beginning it's like 45 minutes and after that we ended we ended up

being three hours and a half in the water. It was around sunset. So that time where the water starts changing, even if it's summer, like it started being more rough. It was windy. Yeah, we were 18 people on the boat with one child. He was six years old. We were only three women, me, my sister, and another woman from Sudan. And lots of people did not know how to swim.

That was scary to me too, because they knew I was a swimmer. And because I knew and I did the lifeguard license, people, when they drown, they pull you in if they know that you're a swimmer or a lifeguard. So that was scary to me. The second thing that I was scared the most about, and in general in life I'm scared the most about and in general in life I'm scared the most about is losing my sister she has been you know my twin literally since I was born she has been there for me and when I saw her jump into the water I was like you know what I've been copying her my whole life and I learned English because of her I became a great swimmer because I wanted to be better than her I know it's a bit I I'm too competitive, but who else

I would compete with but my sister. So yeah, when I saw her jump into the water, I jumped too, to be honest, without thinking. And I think it helped that I was 17 and I was a teenager and I was a little bit naive, my sister too. I don't know if this would have happened now. I would be, you know, I would be thinking about it a little bit more, but I think it helped that I was very, very, very young. And I was like, you know what, I'm a swimmer. Those other people, they don't know how to swim. And they were panicking. Everyone was praying on the boat. So when I was in the water, to be honest, I was just thinking, oh my God, like, how can I see the lights of the island, but never reach it? And it just felt surreal. It did not really feel real to me.

And it took us, as I said, three hours and a half to get to the shore. And again, as you said, I've been forced to take this decision. And I would have never thought that I would end up in the situation, me or my sister, ever in life. We're going to return to your status as a refugee because it pertains to one of your failures later. But before we get into your failures, the journey you went through displays the worst of humanity. But I wonder if along the way you also witnessed the best. I did. I did. That's what I always say. I say, look, when we went through the journey, there were moments that I will never forget in my life. There were moments of joy as well, even if no one helped us.

Me and my sister, we met 30 people when we crossed. And those people, they were from Syria, Sudan, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Iraq as well. And they were so kind to us. And we just said hi. And then they were all sitting together somehow, like, because they were waiting for for a boat we were stuck on the shore in Turkey for like four days so what they did was that the men would surround us women when we sleep so the smugglers would not hurt us or anyone else because you didn't know anyone else so sometimes you just have to trust people and we did trust them and they were incredible they a baby, which broke my heart

and my sister's heart that, you know, they had a chain on her neck before they got on the boat with all the numbers of their family members. So if they drowned the parents, someone would rescue her. That really broke our heart. And we offered to help with the baby. But then they're safe now and they made it, thank God. But yeah, in general, we were very lucky. In Budapest, we crossed as Europeans. We tried to be Europeans on the train. And then someone told on us.

But then another driver was like driving crazy to just help us get to the point where the buses were there from Germany to take us to Germany. There was also a girl that helped. When we got to Greece, when we go to this restaurant, they refused to give us to Germany there was also a girl that helped when we got to Greece when we go to this restaurant they refused to give us water even though we had like 500 euros we showed her 500 euros she didn't want to sell us water because we were refugees but then another girl came and she was like about the same age as me I would say 17 18 she gave me shoes and she gave the little boy sweater so there is kindness everywhere yeah thank you so much for sharing this let's get on to your failures your first failure

is leaving swimming for a whole year when you were 15 and I imagine the reason you left is because your country was disintegrating into civil war honestly it was so many things that happened not just war it was I would say 70% was because of war it felt like I was just training and living my daily life just as a nobody I had I didn't feel like I was doing anything like I was just doing it because I could but not because I was chasing a dream not because I knew that I'm going to get somewhere in life. And that was really frustrating because you sit in school, you go to training, you had bomb attacks. Sometimes you had to stay home. You get a really freaked out call from your mom saying, stay home today. It's really, really sensitive. Like don't go out. And that was really, really hard to deal with.

Like it was like COVID as example example when you could not go home and all the athletes had to stay home for weeks it was the same for us as well during war but adding to that that you were risking your life as well in a way more dangerous situation but there was also another small reason that was I've been preparing I was preparing for the youth Olympic Games for a few years and I was the fastest female swimmer in my country at that age but they chose to take another one another swimmer and I told them to my federation I told them can you make a race between me and her and they say no it's her turn to go you You went to the world championships. And at that point, I was like, you know what? This is not fair.

I am a professional swimmer and I'm not going to, I can't do this anymore. And another reason was that my dad left the country as well. He was not my coach anymore. And I trusted him with everything. And when he left, I felt really unsupported in the sport. I felt like I've been taken advantage of because he was fighting for us every day, every, every day. And he struggled in his own way as well, because every time he would build swimmers to the point where they were so good. And then the

national team would say, oh, it's time for them to go to the national team. So he would start with the new swimmers from zero so it wasn't easy to be a professional swimmer in Syria neither so it was multiple reasons but I did regret it later yeah are you someone with a strong sense of justice and fairness is that important to you definitely I'm the type of person if I am at the restaurant and I ask like okay I would love to have a fresh orange juice and if someone comes to me and they're like give me the fresh orange juice and it's from a bottle I'm gonna be like sorry is that like literally squeezed right now and they will be like no that's fresh from the bottle and I'll be like no that's not fresh from the bottle

I am very very precise and like sometimes my dad was like telling us the plan of the training and then adding stuff in the end and I'm like no like I would cry as a child and until now I think my dad put that in me somehow but I feel like it's a good quality because I am very very honest And I like to get honesty from like the other side as well. And I'm like, you know, I say I'm fine with the situation, as long as you're honest and fair to me. But if you're not, I sometimes get furious. And I'm trying to control that. And I'm trying to protect my mental health, because in the end, if it affects me, so yeah. That's so interesting, because there's a clarity to that

there's a certainty if you know that you're being honest and the other person's being honest you can rely on that yeah and I wonder what it's like to have that psychology in a state of war yeah where everything is beyond your control is unfair is dangerous I was reveling, literally. The year where I stopped swimming, I started running away from school with my friend. I got this piercing, this ear piercing behind my mom's back. And then on the same day of getting the piercing, I went in and cut my hair very short. And my mom was furious. She was like, I got in the car. And she was like, get out of the car. And then I was like, where should I go? She was like, to your uncle uncle and it was my favorite uncle and my cousins now both of them my two favorite cousins they're all in Germany as well they're different than the ones who crossed with us they came later

on but my mom thought it was a punishment honestly I'm gonna be very honest I did not respect my mom most of my life I don't know why. It was a respect, but I just never had a really good relationship with her. So no matter what she said, I ignored it. I had such a good relationship with my dad because of swimming and so on. And my mom and dad's marriage struggled years and years.

It was a traditional marriage. It was really a failed marriage. And they're fine now they talk normal but I was always on his side because I heard his side of the story way more than hers so I never had a good relationship with her and they called her from the school so many times because I was either I would have broken the door somehow with my friends like playing around or like I once we played with water balloons and then it got on the camera the other time I was like I had a fight because someone like I was just walking in the

hallway and then a girl said something mean about my dad and then I was like take it back and then my friends and her friends lots of really really childish stuff but I did rebel a lot in that year and I realized that this is not me. Because I also was in the wrong crowd. And I was like, just hearing the gossip of people I did not even care about. And I was like, this is not me. This is not my life. My purpose is way bigger than that.

But it sounds to me as well as though you were rebelling against the situation you found yourself in, in multiple ways. In everything. Because first of all, like we had to move from our we didn't we were not in a stable life situation where we had to change our apartment every few months because the rent was either getting higher I went to my grandma's house and then obviously at one point of course they will host you but at one point you can realize that they're annoyed from you being there and it was the same sometimes I went to my aunt like from my dad's side sometimes to my mom's side there was no rest for us like you didn't feel home anymore like we were already refugees in Syria but we didn't realize that yes we were moving from a place to another every few months taking everything and leaving and then when my dad left

I had this like obviously you feel you don't have protection anymore neither because like we're four females in the house sometimes my mom would call and say I'm stuck at work because there are bombings in this area close the door and then sometimes she came at 2 a.m because of what happened on the way she had to stay in her job like in her place where she worked and that was terrifying like everything that happened and I lost swimming I did not care about school as much my sister was rebel her whole life Sarah so that did not help and I had to take care sometimes of my little sister I started working when I was 15 years old as a lifeguard.

And I saw all of my rich friends come to the pool as, you know, guests. And I was working. And that broke my heart too. Because, you know, I was 15 at the time. And I was like, they would come to me, oh, so cool and everything. And I was embarrassed sitting at the pool, you know, working at 15. And them with their rich moms, you know know coming and their moms taking care of them and everything I it was a really tough time in my life your younger sister who you mentioned there

I think she was five at the time that you and yeah and is it right that she could distinguish because she was nine or ten I think yeah because we are nine years apart. Okay. Yeah. Is it right that she could distinguish between the sound of mortar fire and bombs? Yeah. Yeah, we all do, basically. Like, the difference between the missile and the bomb, the missile, you know it's coming, so you can already run and you can see it. But the bomb, it's just the explosion that you see. That's the thing.

And then there were things that we saw that were just really crazy. You think the last time I ever was near my house, like me and my family, it was all of us were in the car. And then when we entered the area, I swear on everything, it was like a Hollywood movie. It was so gray and you can hear the bombings. You can see the destruction, the electricity cables, they were all falling apart. And then the checkpoint, the guy was like telling my dad, are you crazy bringing your

family here? And then when we tried to get out, there was a tank and they already wanted to fire us. I don't know how my dad went to reverse. And then we stayed at the house of the mayor for a while and then we got out. And yeah, this is, people ask why isn't this in the movie, but it's two hours. What are you going to put? Like, it's so much. So push to the point of this terror and desperation.

The decision is made that you and sarah will embark on this journey yeah you fly to istanbul we flew to beirut in the beginning okay and that was the humiliating also part where you see in the movie where they say don't take the life jackets yes on the flight yes and from beirut we go with the plane to Istanbul. And then after that, from Istanbul, we go with the bus, all the curtains are closed, no phone, no bathroom, nothing, no breaks. In the movie, you don't see it 100% because obviously it would have taken them a longer time. But there was a whole road and then the smugglers put the bus inside of a ferry and this ferry crosses to an island and they cover it with huge trucks of, I don't know, equipment or stuff. And the bus is in the middle and that was terrifying.

You can't open the curtains, you can't see where you're going. But obviously we tried to see that and we knew that we are on a ferry so that was terrifying and after that you get on an island they tell you oh you're holding because your boat comes with you basically your boat and motor comes with you with the refugees that are coming they make you carry it down and then they tell you that's your boat but that's a lie you wait three four days you go down you see the you know the trash so many people on the island stuck you see the life jackets because they were waiting to wear them obviously you talk to the people

you're like oh did you just arrive they laugh at you they're like no we've been here for days so you know you have to be there for days and we had like only mars like just really really heavy yeah they're really heavy chocolate yes so if we get hungry because we thought that that would have would happen we didn't have enough water though so sometimes we had to share like a one liter bottle for a whole day or for a few days no bathrooms bathrooms. We didn't have any tents. We didn't have sleeping bags at the time because we thought we needed them from Athens. After that, we crossed with a boat. I would say dinghy. We were 18 people on it. We crossed from then the island in Turkey. I have no clue where it was, maybe Izmir. We crossed from there to Lesvos.

And then from Lesvos, we walked. When you get there, you think, okay, I made it. But then you have a whole journey of like, I don't know how many kilometers we walked until we got like up to a place where people were there, like stores and so on. And mentioning meeting kind people, we met this lady that owns a restaurant later on after being refused and we got greek food there and she told us to go to the church and sleep

there because it's going to be cold at night and we did that we slept at the church and my sister sarah after she went back to lesbos she went back to her and said hi and she told her we made it and everything so sarah went back to refugees that's so beautiful yes yes she did she did so each country you cross you have to get a paper saying this country does not want you as a refugee here if you don't have this paper and you cross to the next country so as example if you cross and get to Germany, they send you back to Greece. Right. So if you have the paper in Budapest, as example, in Hungary, you get sent back to Hungary because of the prints.

Okay. That's why you never say as a refugee that you have a passport. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And lots of refugees did actually lose their passport or they got burnt or whatever. But mostly you do hide the passport. Right. Because you don't want to be a refugee in Greece or Hungary. You know, it's not good.

After that, we went to Athens with a big ferry. You can see that in the movie. And honestly, that was also something that I would remember my whole life, that it was a good memory. It wasn't a bad memory. The bad memory is to be with thousands of refugees cramped up in a ferry. And the sad part is there was a system. Like it wasn't just, you know, refugees crossing.

There were ferries taking the people. And I know like, you know, getting a ticket is easy, but still they knew we were refugees. So I think there's a bigger picture. An extremely important point that we shouldn't gloss over. Yes. There is an industrial shouldn't gloss over. Yes. There is an industrialized complex around this, trading on human misery. Those smugglers as well, they knew exactly what they were doing. I don't know what kind of mafia that was, but Turkey does play with refugees as well.

Whenever they want, they let them go to make more pressure on Europe. Whenever they want, they keep them there. As a refugee in Turkey, you have zero rights. Of course, there are amazing people in Turkey that have been hosting Syrian people, their neighbors, and that's wonderful. But even if you live 10 years in Turkey, you don't even get an ID.

Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, hi i'm matt lewis historian and host of a new chapter of echoes of history a ubisoft podcast brought to you by history hit join me and world leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online.

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And me, Peyton Dix. The host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides, don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise.

Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. One of the many astonishing parts of this is that there is a photo of you as a refugee i think in hungary yeah we have also interviews and everything we did i did interviews so this because it was part of this huge migration crisis yeah there were a lot of journalists along the way yeah we met these two incredible journalists and they became family.

Now we're still in touch. So we met Lam. He's a photographer and his girlfriend Magdalena, that is a journalist. And Lam was a refugee himself. He comes from Vietnam, but he lives in Paris.

And Magdalena, she comes from Czech Republic. At that point, they didn't know they want to make a book because they didn't know we are 30 people. But they then made a book about it. And they did like a film about it and everything. Yeah, they took those photos. And they documented everything. And it was incredible. They really did help us. And after that, we really became family. They still care about all of us. We still see each other. When my sister later on, unfortunately, we will get to that point as well, got to jail, they were there and they also did a lot. But yeah, I also met another journalist. His name is Steven and he's from Belgium and he lives like between Belgium and Paris. And he came to me as well I was that night

we were in Belgrade that night it was so special because you know we got to stay in a hotel we lay they let us stay in a hotel and I showered and I did my makeup and everything and I was outside in the tent afterwards I went to everyone else me and my sister and my cousin we stayed at the hotel for one night and then we found everyone else and then he came to me he was like do you have time for an interview and I was like yeah sure why not and it's crazy to think about like what happened in my life because in the interview with him we were on the way in Vienna in the end from Vienna to Germany and he was like what are you gonna do in Germany and then I was like I'm just gonna make Germany fun you know and now he's like crazy like after a year I went to the Olympics and then the book and now the movie and he's like what are the odds literally really yes yeah the thing that

really strikes me as you're telling this story is your incredible spirit your strength of character which I feel from having watched the movie Sarah also has yeah did that ever flag at any point what was the lowest point was there ever a point where you're like I just can't do this like it must feel like a battle every single day honestly I had really a low point where I really believe that I was depressed. I don't know if I wanted to admit it. I didn't know what depressed feels like, even to be like, am I depressed or not? But what happened is, and it wasn't because of my story. It was because of everything that happened afterwards. After I went to the Olympics, I was invited to the United Nations by like the president of the United States, Barack Obama. And then I met

the Pope and then I met incredible people all at once. And then I, it was a high, high, high, high. And then at one point there was still media requests and everything, but the like, there was silence basically. And I was like, oh my God, what am I doing with my life? I felt the need of like doing great things every day and if I didn't do that I wasn't achieving anything and I it was a point where I moved from Berlin to Hamburg I was heavily bullied by the swimmers at the Olympic Center by like I did skip training a lot but I did train in hotels because I had a lot of events because I lift off the work that I do because my story was different. And for me, it wasn't about,

obviously I dreamt of winning a gold medal, but I knew deep down, it wasn't only about that anymore. I knew that my work is also important and I cannot be the athlete that's going to be 100% all about swimming. It's not like that anymore. My life changed and my purpose changed. They would be like, oh, she never comes to training. She doesn't deserve to be at the Olympics. I was so scared of this one girl that I called my coach sometimes and I said, Sven, I've been, it's the same coach that went with me to the Olympics. I would call him and tell him, Sven, I've been, it's the same coach that went with me to the Olympics. I would call him and tell him, Sven, I've been in bed. I've been in my apartment for one week. I skipped

training and I said, I'm sick. I don't want to leave anywhere. I don't want to see anyone. I don't want to talk to my family. I don't want to talk to anyone. And that was the lowest point. I also was in a very, very toxic relationship that did not help as well I had self-doubt doubt of who I am what was I doing and I wanted to have my own foundation I wanted to have everything very quickly basically and I was like the movie wasn't going out and then afterwards COVID came to the game as well so I did definitely have a low point but I at one point realized that it was 50% because of my toxic relationship when I broke up I realized okay I took care of myself and I realized I don't have to do something big every day yes to be somebody yes it's fascinating to hear that

because I never talked about that before to be honest neither thank you i feel really honored that you could share it here because actually that thing of doing something great every day yes you met barack obama on the pope and you addressed davos world economic forum but before that that 25 day journey that you had to get to berlin you were doing something great every day you were doing battle every single day with life and death yeah so of course once you stop doing that you must think well you must be exhausted and I do until today like I do have this urge of like making people understand what I went through like it still hurts it's still like if I like sometimes talk to my boyfriend about it and he's like oh yeah I understand and

then he walks away I get so hurt yes because I don't want people to feel the pain of course I don't but I want people to understand how difficult it was for me and that it is painful still and speaking about it with the media some people like ask you the question and look down to the paper. I'm like, right now, I am at the point where if someone does that with me, I would walk away from the room. Because my story and the story of those refugees are still crossing. It's so important for you to look at the question. I understand if you have to read the question. You can wait for me to tell you because I'm sharing my pain with you. I'm sharing a really important journey with you

that is not only my journey. I am representing millions of refugees around the world and I'm telling my story for the millionth of time because I want to make a difference. And you choose to ask me the question. And everyone asked me this question. How did it feel to be in the water? Like, what did you, like, how did it feel? And I'm like, one question was like, do you feel lucky that you made it? And others didn't. And you are here today and speaking and like getting famous and everything.

And I'm like, my sister was furious about the question because it was for me and her. And I just took it calmly. I told her, you know what? I am very lucky. And I am doing what I'm doing today because of those people who didn't make it. And because I don't want other people to go through the same thing. But it does hurt you when people ask such stupid questions. Of course it does.

when people ask such stupid questions. Of course it does. And also there's a sense that they just want to get to that question, have the answer straight away and then move on. It goes back to what we were talking about earlier about... Yeah, ignorance and just... Yes, and your story and the story of all these millions of refugees that you represent.

I think the thing that I really want to get across and you do such a beautiful job of is that every single one of those statistics is a life of course is a life lived with complexities and love affairs and friendships and homes that they've had to leave behind and I mean I wanted to ask you this earlier what did you take with you when you embarked on this journey and you knew you were leaving your home in your country in your family how do you decide what to take it was really really hard I knew that I took basically my three favorite t-shirts one hoodie probably one jeans and one joggers my mom sent the medical aid case with us we took dots is it dots the things you eat like it's small very

arabic you eat it in ramadan okay and i took a bracelet that my best friend gave me she knew that i was going on this journey and she gave me a bracelet i put it on my wrist and then there was a necklace also from my friends one day before i leave they got a cake with lots of pictures of us, all of us. I said goodbye. My mom was subbing the whole time. And that was it. It was one bag. I had this bandana at the airport. I still remember we have a photo of it. And that was it. And before I got on the boat, I had to throw everything, everything. And I had the bracelet and all of that but I don't think I have them anymore I have the selfie bag that I had on the side when I was on the boat and my phone that I had and they're in a museum in Germany actually so that was everything that I took and I had to throw everything before getting on the boat and when I was on the boat had very very

small bag like very small it wouldn't affect the boat in any way where I had my glasses because I wear glasses and I get dizzy very quickly sometimes and then I had those necklaces and like bracelets and then my cousin freaked out and he threw it when everyone was throwing everything so I got to the shore only with my t-shirt by the way in the movie it's the exact same t-shirt it's not the actual t-shirt they designed the exact same t-shirt Molly the the stylist she did that with the jeans the bandana that was the exact outfit I was wearing it was emotional for me to see that and this t-shirt so when I got to Greece I had jeans And this t-shirt, so when I got to Greece, I had jeans, a gray t-shirt, I still remember. And I had no shoes because I don't know why I thought it's a good idea to wear

Timberlands on such a journey. It was, it was not. For land, very good. I know. For sea, no, I had to throw it. And I did remember, I do remember I had Crocs, like something like Crocs. They were very, very special to me and I had to throw them as well. But yeah, I had no shoes when I got there. And then the very kind Greek girl gave me shoes and gave the little boy a sweater. So yeah, I did really have to abandon everything. But it wasn't really that hard for me because I already have lost our apartment and everything was destroyed.

My baby pictures everything everything and that's why I think I have a problem now with giving things away whatever I have like my mom is like this t-shirt you have since six years you never wear why don't you like just give it away and when I left Germany now like I when I moved to LA it was so hard for me and I was like oh maybe I will maybe I will and I think that is because I had to abandon everything at such a young age when I was 17 it is my identity like my baby like there was this trend I don't know if you remember but like post a picture of you now and then when you were a baby or something like that and everyone did it on Instagram and tagged the next person and my friends tagged me

they all did it and they were like you're so arrogant you didn't do it why like everyone did it and I was sobbing and I was like I do not have any baby pictures of me they were all burnt in the war like I do not have to explain everything to you and that that broke my heart. Of course it did. I'm so sorry. And I want to save that concept for the third and final failure, because your third and final failure is so profound. It goes to the root of who we are, where our identities come from. But I'm just aware that I've been talking to you, I could talk to to you for hours because I really do want to hear every single aspect of your story but we do have a second failure which is failing at swimming the times that you wanted to swim so I'm guessing that relates to the Olympics and what you said there earlier about dreaming of winning a gold medal but knowing that your story was bigger than that yeah it took me years to understand and I there's still

like this denial in me where I'm like a part of me knew that the training that I had in Syria and everything that I had in Syria the support I had there and just the equipments and everything they were not enough to make me you know the, the next Olympic champion. I did, however, believe if my dad was my coach, I did 1000% believe that I'm going to get a gold medal. But my dad was difficult as a person. And that did not help at all. So when I got to Germany, I had some sponsor deals and so on. And he did embarrass me in front of them. And I did not trust him as a coach anymore, neither. And that was like the perfect duo but I couldn't deal with his personality anymore it was very very difficult and it's probably also a regret for me that I did not try to train with him again when I was in

Germany it also did establish my personality on my own with the other coaches I I do until now. I'm struggling with swimming with like, do I give it another one last time? I give everything or do I just say, I've been to two Olympics. I reached something way, way bigger than a gold medal. Let's move on. I feel like I'm grieving right now because I've been a swimmer since I was three years old

and it's a huge part of me and I do not want to let it go and it does really hurt just to know that I'm not going to win a gold medal of course I did not just let it go but I knew I saw like if you compare like as example my body to a German swimmer's body there's like no chance it's crazy just by her hand and sometimes obviously there are some exceptions in the swimming world there are some small swimmers that are good but those have been trained by as example the Canadian teams the Canadian doctors Canadian physical therapists since they were very very young so they do have a chance and for me it's very very different I did start training twice a day when I

got to Germany when I was 18 and for a swimmer that's like crazy that's late so you were in a refugee camp in it but it's not really a camp yeah it was no it was a camp okay in Berlin yeah and am I right in thinking that you found the local swimming club and turned up yeah that's how you started training with your coach yeah exactly so when we were in the camp me and my sister were like looking for swimming pool nearby because we wanted to swim. There was this very, very kind Egyptian translator. We went to him, we were like, can you please help us? We're professional swimmers. We would love to swim again. He was like, are you really swimmers? Because lots of people said they're professional

athletes and they were not. And they were like, no, no, no, we are. We went to the swimming club. Sven was there. He was like, yeah, okay, I'm going to test you. We went to the water and he was like, did you train before like in the US or Canada or something like that? We were like, no. And they were like, the technique is so good. And that was my dad again, because he was crazy about swimming and about perfecting and about you know meeting the the world standards he wanted us to really become olympic champions really yeah and maybe there was a chance who knows

and he had been a competitive swimmer himself that's what i thought but i'm very interested and very moved by you saying that you think you're grieving and that there's part of you maybe a conflicted part that feels like maybe I need to let that go now yeah but it so ties in with what we were talking about before that which is letting clothes go yeah because you have been denied so much of your own history and so many of the markers that many of us take for granted in terms of our own identity swimming is or has been your identity yeah exactly and that's another thing now that you're potentially having to come to terms with losing yeah but what i want to tell you is that you are so much more than that you are so much more than any identity that any role or object could give you you are an

extraordinary person thank you and you You are an extraordinary person. Thank you. And you exist in an extraordinary way beyond any of those things. And so I just want to acknowledge that and also to say that I'm sorry that you're going through this because I can feel your sadness. Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I did. If you ask me right now, would you want to win a gold medal or do it all over again? Everything that I did with UNHCR and refugees, I honestly would not even think about it.

I would start for the refugee Olympic team. You see in the movie, I struggled with the word refugees. That's also one of the fails. And I did struggle with the word refugee. And this team, the Refugee Olympic Team, has given me so much beyond what I could have ever imagined. The respect that I gained because of this team. The hope that we gave the world when this team was first created. We were 10 athletes coming from every nation. You know, we were so diverse from different countries. Do you know how huge that is

for people to come from all around the world and finally be one team representing millions of refugees around the world competing under the Olympic flag? I would never, ever change that. And it took me a while to understand because I wasn't educated in the right way about refugees and everything. We had refugees in Syria from Palestine, but it was just a, it was a close country, I guess. So I didn't really take it seriously. And I was very young. And in general, I was so material when I was in Syria. I cared about like how really everything that I was wearing and how I looked and every single detail and then when I saw the moment that everything changed for me with swimming and with like

understanding that it's way bigger than me is that when it was the opening ceremony when we walked into that stadium the whole stadium stood up you can see the president of the international olympic committee standing up the very important people standing up. And after that, that was one point that I was very, very proud of. The second point was I got messages of kids, of people all around the world saying, when I read about you, when I knew about you and how that you did not give up, that you tried your best to do everything you can and here you are like succeeding. I wanted to take more responsibility about my family. Like one guy was like telling me how his dad passed away and he wanted to take responsibility for

his family, but he felt it's so heavy. When he read the story, he understood that, you know, it can be difficult, but you can make it and that was so emotional for me and then you saw the kids wearing the like writing on the on the caps you saw Mardini and I like just being inspired by that and by the team and by the hope the team represented I was like you know what grow up it's not about you anymore it It's about millions, really. And I was 18 when I realized that. And slowly I became into my role of being a goodwill ambassador and realizing that I do have a strong voice. And when I sit down and talk, people listen.

Because I'm honest about my story and I told everything. And my emotions are true. honest about my story and I told everything and my emotions are true and when I share my story it's genuinely because I really want people to understand and I want people to really understand that we really want a safe place and when I left I wasn't thinking about becoming famous I wasn't thinking about anything but swimming and me being safe and my family being safe that's it why would i go to germany it's so cold and it's very different you know um that was a journey definitely definitely yeah a physical journey and a journey of the soul it sounds like and that is your third failure not

accepting the fact that you became a refugee which you've explained so beautifully i wonder if i could do a very embarrassing thing and read out a quote of yours. And it was a speech that you gave to the World Economic Forum. And I just found it so moving that I wanted to read it. And you said, so who is this refugee? Well, once I was just like you, I had a home, I had roots, had roots I belonged like you I lived my life day by day caught up in my own hopes passions and problems then war came and everything changed war gave me a new name a new role a new identity refugee sorry I don't know why that is so moving because I think it just shows that you were a victim of this force beyond anyone's control yeah it was difficult for me to just understand why did this happen to me and why do I deserve that everything that I did like work with refugees

I did not feel it's a part also of why I like had a really low point in life where I was sitting home. I didn't want to talk to anyone or anything. It's because after all the work that I've done for refugees, speaking about the stories and everything, I didn't feel like I helped them. And that was something that I really, really struggled with. My main goal is to be able to create something or a system for refugees that lives on when I'm away, when I'm gone. Yes. And this is one of the things that I think about a lot,

that I want to be the type of person that when I'm gone from this world, not my name will be remembered, but the things that I've done to change the world, to make it a better place, to make people understand that I am normal, you know, and that one day I'm meeting the president of the United States. The next day I'm going with the bike to training. Yes. That is who I am. And that is who I will always be.

I will always be this person that you can come up to and talk to about anything because I do want to help people. And one day, hopefully, I would be so proud to build schools, to build buildings, to host refugees, to build, you know, routes where they can take. People would think I'm crazy and unrealistic when I say those things, but I really want to change something and provide them with the help they need and not just tell their stories and my own story but I really want to change something and provide them with the help they need and not just tell their stories and my own story. I really, really want to change something. I believe it's going to happen and I believe you can do it. And I think this failure of finding it

difficult to step into your identity as a refugee, I think is very profound for people listening. Everyone will have quite an ignorant conception of what they believe a refugee to be unless they have been one themselves yes and what i most want people to take away from this is that that isn't a category like it's yeah it's what you're saying when you're saying refugee is you're saying human obviously human in absolutely just a label that i don't know who created the label one time i had a speech and someone was like do you think that the word refugee should be different like the label refugee and then i was like that's not the problem yeah i was like we don't care about what we are called i was like i didn't care about like the word the

wording refugee i cared about how am i being treated. When you talk about the Arabic world is always painted in this gray colors, the media portrays it in the worst possible way. So one thing to take of this to choose what media you decide to watch as well, because that is very, very important. Go back to books, go back to the old ways try to investigate like i love old-fashioned journalism where you used to like literally go everywhere to find out the really real information where i told my story thousands of times and i told the media so many times so many times the rope when i was swimming was not around my waist. I didn't pull.

I was 17. I was like 50 kilograms. I couldn't pull a boat like that. It's impossible. And every time I told them that I was holding the rope and trying to pull and push me and my sister, they chose to ignore what I said and say that the rope was around my waist. Why? Because they want to hear a story that sells. So choose the media that you listen to and you read very, very wisely, especially here in the UK. It's very confusing, I guess.

Tell me that's it. Since, you know, years. So in general, it really makes a difference and literally go back to books. That's the best things. And I always say this about the Arabic world. There's one scene in the movie that is very, very powerful. And it's my favorite scene is where me and my sister are dancing to titanium. I love that scene. And you see the bombs.

And that was the reality of war. We wanted to be normal. We wanted to live a normal life. We wanted to be normal we wanted to live a normal life we wanted to live basically and even if it was five minutes that was ordinary and very normal where we felt like life was fine and safe again we tried to take it and you don't see that scene anywhere either in media and any other movies and the director sally did an amazing job putting that in. One thing I want to mention as well,

Sia's music, it was my playlist. Titanium and Unstoppable, it's my playlist. She asked me and my sister, Manal and Natalie also, all of us for our playlists and for the music that motivates us and everything. And I put Titanium and Unstoppable in my playlist and she chose them. Oh, that is so wonderful. Yeah, it is.

And the Arabic music is from Manal's playlist. Some music is from Sarah's. That's beautiful. It is. Everything we hear in the film. Is from our playlist. You mentioned your sister Sarah, and I don't want to end this interview without talking about what happened to her.

Because she decided, after having got to Berlin she wanted to go back to Lesbos and yes to help other refugees as she and you had been yeah and she after a couple of years I think was arrested by Greek authorities she was arrested by Greek authorities she stayed in jail for three months they accused her of being a people smuggler which i can imagine must have been so horrendous for her as a refugee yes and you being a refugee being accused of things like that like she risked everything and her getting the german passport to go back to greece and help people that's how kind my sister is she has such a white heart where even if she saw someone like on the street a homeless person that you know needs a sweater she would take it off and give it to them since we were in syria if she saw someone she would come up to my mom and ask her do we have like some spoons and like plates and

so on that we don't need my mom was like what do you need them for yeah there's a homeless man downstairs and i want to give them some stuff like that's how she was and broke my heart that she had to go through you know this terrible time it has been five years there's until now no court date that is inhuman and she has so many charges her and other people as well not only her she is right now actually in greece she had to sign something and I it must be so emotional for her this is the first time she enters Greece after being in jail so it was like four or five years ago yeah I really really hope that this is going to end soon it has been going on for such a long time my sister is very wild and like free spirit I hope really that will end soon because it has been really difficult for

her especially like with her mental health she just was trying to help and this is happening actually just happened multiple times this is not the first time that this happens in europe lots of humanitarians were wrongfully being in jail there's this page on instagram it's called free humanitarians. It does a lot and campaigns for those humanitarians. There are petitions that can be signed about that. And we do have an amazing support. We have good lawyers, we have Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, we have lots of really supportive people, we have Netflix, we have working titles and the whole cast so we have a lot of support and as small as this may be in comparison i'll put a link to that in the show notes and also

other ways to help link to the unhcr choose love is an amazing charity that works with refugees i cannot thank you enough for coming on this podcast it has been profoundly moving and enlightening at the same time i think you. I think you're a phenomenal person. And I'm so grateful for you and for your existence on this planet. Thank you. You know, also the journalist also matters to me. And it makes such a difference of how you're asking the people about the story and how you show interest and so on.

And some information I never shared before. So I'm really glad to have this conversation with you and to to be here it is my last interview for the day as well excellent and now you're going to go off and do some shopping yeah definitely replace those t-shirts yeah Yusra Mardini thank you so so much for coming on how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist