How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S16, Ep4 How To Fail: Spencer Matthews on alcoholism, the death of his brother and surviving reality TV

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

SPENCER MATTHEWS! I confess, I enjoyed this conversation SO MUCH. It's not just because I'm an unabashed viewer of Made in Chelsea from the early days.* It's also because I've watched Spencer transcend his (decidedly not great) reality TV persona to become a successful entrepreneur, broadcaster, husband and father. I've always had a soft spot for him even though I've never actually known him, partly because he's got a great sense of humour and real self-awareness. All of which makes him a delight to interview.He joins me to talk about his failures in reality TV, his realisation that alcohol was becoming a problem in his life, the subsumed grief he felt after his beloved older brother Mike died while climbing Everest and his own desire to pursue extreme sporting endeavours. Please listen, even if you have preconceptions. We got on so well, and I really valued his openneness - I truly felt I could ask Spencer anything: and I often did.*If you're also a die-hard MIC fan, I get him to talk about that iconic break-up scene with Louise by Putney Bridge. It's a riveting insight into how reality TV is made. You're welcome.--Spencer's podcast, Big Fish, is available to listen to hereClean Co non-alcoholic spirits are available to buy hereThe Michael Matthews Foundation, set up in memory of Spencer's late brother, is a charity which funds education projects in Africa and Asia. You can find out more, and donate, here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodSpencer Matthews @spencermatthews Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Spencer Matthews is an entrepreneur and father of three, the founder of the non-alcoholic spirit company CleanCo, and a successful broadcaster in his own right. But for years, the epithet that has followed him around almost everywhere and been quoted in almost every print interview ever published is Spencer Matthews, the former Made in Chelsea star. After a stint as a city trader aged 20, Matthews appeared on the structured reality TV show for five years from its inception in 2011. The cameras followed his romantic ups and downs, cheating scandals, and the memorable occasion a co-star flung a drink in his face with riveting

results. Made in Chelsea, won a BAFTA. Matthews graduated to other reality shows, including I'm a Celebrity, Celebrity Masterchef, and the terrifying ski jumping show, The Jump, which he won and where he met his now wife, the Irish TV presenter and businesswoman Vogue Williams. Marriage seemed to be the making of him. Matthews got sober and a bit more sensible and the couple's hilarious and warm dynamics spawned a TV show and a hit podcast, Spencer and Vogue. He also presents Six Degrees of Separation on BBC Sounds with his former MIC co-star Jamie Lang. And last year, he launched his first solo podcast effort, Big Fish with

Spencer Matthews. This month also sees the release of an extraordinary documentary about his ascent of Everest in search of the final resting place of his older brother, Michael, who died aged 22 on the mountain, having become the youngest person to summit the peak in 1999. More on that later. In various interviews, Matthews has said he now sees himself as an entrepreneur, not an entertainer, and that his appetite for fame has diminished to almost nothing. I'm not sure, he says, I would want to be friends with my former self. Spencer Matthews, welcome to How to Veil. What an intro. Very exciting.

Yes, it was. I mean, you're very good at reality TV shows. Getting to the final or winning them is something that I realised during my research. Yeah, I guess. You strike me as quite a competitive person. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, it depends what in, of course, but I don't really see the point in competing if you're not trying to win. Well, we'll get onto that more later, but I wanted to end on that quote because I wonder if you see your life split into two halves, that idea of not wanting to be friends with your former self. Yeah. I mean, I mean,

obviously it would be impossible to be friends with my former self, but yeah, as a kind of just figure of speech, it's, I kind of don't carry around a lot of regret in my kind of daily life, but if I could have done things differently in my former life, I would have. I think my relationship with alcohol in particular was really detrimental to my growth as a person. And I think it just went on a little bit too long, right? You know, I think I would have loved to have gone sober earlier and, you know, in inverted commas, miss out on all the fun that I had. You know, I just think it's a misconception that those years were the fun years in my life. I see them as quite problematic years. And I wish that I'd got a headstart on where I am now. Although I'm very happy with where I am now, right? Sobriety was,

you know, the best thing that's ever happened to me, aside from my lovely wife, of course. I think you might say aside from being on this podcast. And there's a close third. We're going to talk more about that because it pertains to one of your failures. But I wanted to ask you about your childhood, because one of the things that I find interesting about you is that your dad owns this very fancy hotel in St. Bart's. And did you spend a lot of your time in hotels? And do you have an affinity with other children who spent time in hotels like Paris Hilton? Because it must be quite weird shuttling

to and fro and knowing where home is. My dad was the first financially wealthy person in our family, right? So he came from absolutely nothing and, you know, was a paper boy and a car mechanic and, you know, a racing driver then was part of a racing team and then has always been entrepreneurial. But he's the person I've kind of always looked up to when I was younger for drive and, you know, entrepreneurship, I suppose. He bought the person I've kind of always looked up to when I was younger for drive and entrepreneurship, I suppose. He bought the hotel, which was nothing like the fancy hotel that you're describing, in 1995 when I was a little kid. And it only had four bedrooms and it was cockroach infested and stray cats were everywhere. And St. Barts wasn't St. Barts, right?

It was unknown, a bit of a gem in the Caribbean. So it all sounds like a kind of swanky business deal, but at the time it wasn't. We bought it as a house and, you know, we have always had quite an adventurous streak in our family. We jumped around a fair amount. You know, I lived in Paris when I was really young and went to, God, I was about to call it creche because my wife calls it creche. What do we call it? What do English people call it? Nursery. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I went to nursery in Paris and kind of jumped around a bit as a kid, went to lots of different schools and, you know, ended up in St. Barts. At school there for a while, I think my parents were keen for me to speak fluent French, you know, and just develop a different skillset, I suppose, than you would in the ordinary schooling

system. And it was a really interesting time in my life, but it certainly didn't feel swanky. You know, dad and mom decided to keep the house, as it were, on as a hotel. The previous person who built the hotel was a guy called Remy Dehainen. He was fascinating. I used to really dig him as a kid. He used to carry a revolver and, you know, he was the first man to ever land a plane on St. Bart's and a real adventurer. And he had guests at the hotel before like Greta Garbo and Howard Hughes. And that's why we've named a couple of the rooms after them, but just a really rich history. And, you know, the big iguanas were kind of all over the place and, you know, it's, it's my dad and my mum's vision that was able to turn Eden Rock into what it is today. Right. So I think when people think I grew up in the Eden Rock, I didn't grow up in the Eden Rock like it, you know, is today, you know, so, so, but it was, it was a

really exciting life for a kid and it was really interesting, right. I was on the beach and just having fun with my little French friends and, you know, being naughty like any other kid really. And it didn't feel that different at the time. Came over to the UK when I was about 10, did a couple of intense years of schooling at Trevor Roberts in Swiss Cottage, which I didn't particularly enjoy, but that's not a reflection on the school. The school was great. It was just such a shock to the system. Like the work was just so much more full on and I didn't much love school as a kid. And that never changed, you know, all the way through A-levels. I was not studious. I had to be pushed into my home. I had to have a tutor, you know, to help me through stuff. At Eton, eventually, I scraped into Eton,

God knows how, in the bottom third. This could have been a failing. In the bottom third i came 253rd out of 254 in our annual trials right which we had as like a warm-up to gcses or whatever so essentially i was the second dumbest kid in my year at ethan i don't know have i ever felt stupid you know and i got you know i think i got a stars straight a's and two b's or something at GCSE. So I'm fine. And then I got my A's at A level, albeit in the subjects that I wanted to study. But it was just very competitive. And I never had any kind of structure in the schooling system prior to coming to these British schools, which were far better for my education, I guess.

But I was always behind the curb. So a lot of stuff happened when you were 10. You went to Trevor Roberts. And as I alluded to in the introduction, your older brother, Michael, died. Yeah. I'm so sorry that happened. That's not your fault.

No, but I think it's important to acknowledge how awful and devastating that must have been. And how confusing and unmooring for a 10 year old to cope with when you're also dealing with lots of other stuff although I tried to get a viewing link to your hotly anticipated documentary about your ascent of Everest in his footsteps I failed and that's because we've got to be very careful about how we talk about it so we won't go into the detail massively I can't wait to see it I think it's going to be incredibly moving but I wonder if I could talk to you a bit about that loss and how you were told about it I was 10 at the time we're

in St. Barts it was summit night the night before and we knew that that was their window and got a phone call my parents got a phone call obviously I didn't I was 10 and I was called up to the room and there was just this you know just there was you know clearly something wrong in the air and my parents told me that Mike was lost on the mountain and that he wouldn't be coming back I never understood that it didn't register with me it was kind of like it hit a wall and rolled straight off my back. Mike was my superhero, you know, and like, I didn't understand death fully then, you know, obviously as a child. And to me, it was just, couldn't be true. So it didn't really, the information just rolled over me. I remember not even being physically upset because I just thought, well, that's nonsense.

And that's definitely not true. And obviously as time passed, you know, I realised that it was true and you wouldn't see him again. You know, I always had a desire to see him again or at the time that was very difficult. So yeah, the film, which, you know, comes out in March, explores us trying to bring his body home. That's about all I can say at this stage. Did you feel close to him when you were on the mountain?

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It was the closest I've ever felt to him, you know, because actually I never processed the loss really. As I said, my life just carried on, you know, it deeply affected the rest of my family. And for me, it was something that I never took the time to fully understand. And, you know, as I grew older, I never, never had therapy about it, never grieved his loss. You know, I never had the big, you know, emotional breakdown moments of loss because I was kind of too young and then it just never happened. And people talk to me about the drinking thing and they're like, oh, well, is that why? And it's, you know, I'll never blame my alcoholism on that because it's not his fault. For me anyway, it was quite an emotional time to be on the mountain. And I'm not a very emotional person.

I've suppressed emotion, you know, almost my whole life, you know, this kind of emotion. But also, you know, I come from a lovely family. My dad obviously had, was successful, you know, around the time that I was young, which wasn't the case, by the way, for my brothers. You know, my dad was not wealthy when they were growing up. So I had a different childhood to them even. There was always this get up and go attitude in our house. Like my dad's from Sheffield. My brothers were born in Sheffield for argument's sake. We were Northern, right? And, you know, if I fell off my bike

and I hurt my knee it was kind of like get up brush yourself off don't cry you know and it was kind of like you know I hope the floor's okay you know he's saying it's a joke obviously but it's kind of crying was perceived to be very weak in my family right and it was not rough or the reason I am the way I am and And I think the reason I have, and, you know, like to put myself through really difficult positions, you know, physically, which I guess we'll talk about in a bit, but I have developed some kind of natural mental resilience from my child, even though the childhood was a lovely childhood and surrounded with love. It was, it was one where weakness was simply not allowed, weren't allowed to show

weakness at all, ever. And I think that's probably something that I won't do with my kids. Thank you for sharing that. I have a different question about your brother's death, which is not about your alcoholism. It's about your drive. I wonder if you feel your drive comes from a desire to make your brother proud, to make your parents proud, to fill a space, to show that you're enough. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

I always felt like the black sheep of the family. Always. Because my dad would work just like punishing hours. And so would my brother. There's luck in all success, but they put the odds in their favor by working three times harder than everyone else, right? So there's that balance as well. And I thought that their drive was just unattainable to me. I was so lazy in comparison to them. It was intimidating, like watching the two of them, just like with their head in papers all day. And I was just like, God, it just doesn't feel like that would be any fun.

I wasn't like them. They wouldn't share certain information with me, even as like a teenager, because they were worried that I'd just get pissed and tell everyone in the pub type thing. They're quite a private family. I was the first person in my family to like not be private, right? And do reality television, which i've also listed as one of my failures yeah it was interesting to for me and i don't mean to just constantly bang on about sobriety but when i gave up drinking i became similar to my brother and dad very quickly like and i was able to this is your oldest brother james yeah yeah who is incredibly private yeah

don't worry. I'm not going to mention the fact that he's married to Pippa Middleton. You're basically royalty. Yeah. Sorry. No, I'm definitely not. But it just, you know, it was easier to hold serious conversations. It was easier to understand where they're coming from.

Like the stuff that they're talking about, you know, for family business, I would just understand. Like I went from being somebody who was almost certainly going to live the life of a loser to somebody with some serious potential quite quickly that change in my life like offered that to me and I wasn't expecting it to be that dramatic to be honest but having said that I did have a pretty bad drinking problem so before we get onto your failures I've got one more question because I think we have some similarities and one of my things is wanting to make my father proud I don't know why it's my father like it's

just a specific thing that I have has your father said that he's proud of you yes yeah he has but you know I've got a long way to go you know I'm nowhere near at the level I want to be. Like nowhere near, but I feel that I never will be, right? Regardless of how well I do or how successful I become or how wealthy I've got. Like it's never going to be enough. I don't think I just have that in me. But I'm comfortable with where I am, right? But it'll never be enough.

And I don't think that's, like some people, I guess, see that as a problem. Like I just don't at all. Yeah. I'm proud of you. Oh, thank you. Like I just don't at all. Yeah. I'm proud of you. Oh, thank you. And I think drive is really important. Yeah. But also I think making your family proud is a great thing,

but also surpassing your own expectation of where you thought you could be is great. It's a wonderful feeling. Like I'm a firm believer that failing a really audacious goal is more valuable than achieving something that you know you can achieve. If you set yourself milestones in life that you know you're going to reach, that is boring, as far as I'm concerned. Why not shoot for the stars? And if you fail, there's huge lessons in that. But also, it's kind of like, you might achieve it. Then your ordinary goals seem so beneath you that you're able to make those,

you know, big audacious goals, your normal goals, and then shoot higher than that. Right. And I think it only works if you're really ambitious. And I don't think it's a bad thing if you're not ambitious, like not everybody has to be like ridiculously ambitious, but if you are ambitious, why not be wildly ambitious, right right and see what you can do you have a life you said earlier you were conditioned in your childhood to see weakness as a bad thing but you do you not see failure as weakness then i'm hoping not no no definitely not great in our particular example with clean coat like it's sat it's probably going to sound a lot for people but like we want to change the world we We want to, we want millions of people

to have a different relationship with alcohol because of the products that we're creating and the messages that we're sending. And we want to be a global business to the point where literally millions of people have a better relationship with alcohol because of us. That's, do you know how hard that is? Like, like that, that could be seen by many as being really unlikely. And if we fail, we fail, but we're trying. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week

as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online.

It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions, if you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second, then join me, Hunter Harris,

and me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news.

Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother.

A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Your first failure is reality TV, is Made in Chelsea. How important was it for you at that stage to be liked by viewers? Not important at all, honestly. Teach me your ways. No, but that's that. so basically just before you know i come on and you know hammer the life out of main chelsea that's not the intention right made in chelsea at the

time that we did it initially was great fun it was original hadn't really been done before we were piggybacking off the success of the hills and mtv in the states you know i'd spent some time with brody jenner and spencer pratt who were being paid a hundred thousand dollars to turn up to a nightclub that they were going to go to anyway and i I was 19 and I was like, how the hell do I get what they have? Right. And like, it was an interesting thing to do at that age at that time, but like any job and anything, things become slightly different. And you know, your opinion changes, you grow and evolve. And all of a sudden, you know, the match isn't as good as it was at the beginning and people move on. And that's the same with anything. I loved Maiden Chelsea when it first came out. I thought it was cool. You'd sit in a scene and

you wouldn't actually know where the scene was going and it would be really exciting and interesting. And you'd have, your heart would be thumping because you would be aware that, you know, like a lot of people are watching this. And then, you know, the show became really popular. It won a BAFTA, you know, we're on the stage at BAFTA giving an acceptance speech, you know, and it's not a people's choice BAFTA, it's an actual BAFTA from the Academy, you know, and it was kind of like, it was amazing. Right. And, you know, I don't look back at those times with regret. I look back at the times when I was really bored of the show, giving essentially a bad performance, you know, for a while, right? My character, if you're a big fan of the show,

changed very clearly. And that's when I'd had enough of it, you know, and I thought that if this show was a business, what is the commodity that we're selling? And that commodity is drama, right? So without drama, the show dies. And I was like, I like doing the show. We're all in a job. Let's create drama. And that's what that was, right? And it just became this, nobody lives dramatic lives the way that we were portrayed to. And actually, I'll do almost anything to avoid drama. And actually I do almost anything to avoid drama. And it's kind of like, you know, I'm a very relaxed, casual person that works very hard and has a great relationship with my wife. I don't want drama in my life.

So it's kind of like, I don't know. I just look back at it and think that it became very produced. It became, you know, very, the outcomes written in stone before you go into the scenes. It's kind of like, well, what's the point in doing the scene? It's not like it didn't feel real to me. And then I was just like, right, like I'm, you know, I'm, I'm over this, but it took me five years, you know? Well, I'm very grateful for your service because I've watched Maiden Chelsea since the beginning and I still watch it. So I have some very geeky granular questions about it. still watch it so i have some very geeky granular questions about it yeah when you started when you went into a scene with say kaggy dunlop or louise thompson that's a bit later on how much of it i

mean i know everyone asks you this how much of it is prepped beforehand with a producer so does a producer talk to you and say what's going on in your life yeah and then say can we have a conversation about this on screen yeah so you'll have conversations off camera with producers all of the time like almost daily right so that they're aware of what where your thoughts are uh and then just before a scene one person will be briefed and the other won't be right so one person's cold and one person's briefed and like the producers will have like a view of what they want to happen in the scene. But obviously, if you're the person that's not briefed, it's usually because they want the scene to turn out differently to how you might want it. So you don't have any ammo going into the scene.

And then the other person comes into the scene, they might land something on you that they know that you're not expecting so that the reaction is original. Got it. So the emotions are real. yeah yes yeah but they're they're doctored in a sense because they're not live well they are live but they're kind of you know in the same way that we're sat here with cameras rolling you need to wait to get here to receive the information that you know you probably could just call them and find out beforehand but you kind of don't it's like an unwritten rule that you just you know try not to talk to people off camera if there's a big scene coming up but how does that work if you're dating someone well it's complicated

because then like you're an asshole for not sharing the information but if you share the information you'll ruin the scene it's even worse around times that you're about to break up with someone well it's like do you give them the heads up or do you not right and that's the dilemma that you're in that's so difficult yeah but it's like so if you're trying to be a nice guy you might you might give them the heads up and then when you actually do the scene it comes out completely differently and it you know that's why there's aggression and anger in some scenes because it's like oh god we had this conversation last night and it didn't go like this you know and then wow yeah so it's kind of you know but that's on you for spoiling the scene yes and then there's you as a person and there's you wanting to

be a good employee for your employer yeah like the producers would literally be like because they would know they'd know that the scene is orchestrated for you know either you to be broken up with or you to break up with them so one person knows one person doesn't but like you know i guess you're aware of my famous scene with louise you know that britney bridge yeah yeah yeah exactly no so it's kind of like so so you know i'd broken up with louise the night before and i told her that that scene was about that and she came in steaming hot you know like screaming at me breaking up with me and i was like oh this isn't real anymore so you have these crazy reactions and at the time I was a heavy drinker and the change in the wind and our relationship was very toxic at the time, you know, meant that

we had some screaming match that I now really regret, you know, and we're not friends, but you know, I have no hard feelings. I wish her all the best, you know, but it's a shame that I yelled at her that way because I feel embarrassed about it. But like, had I not told her the night before the scene would have been different, you know, I would have broken up with her and she would have had a different reaction to the one that she came in knowing what the scene was about. So, you know, so it was kind of not real. Fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm sure I'll get into loads of trouble, but there we go. Oh no, it was so interesting and hopefully louise will listen to this and you'll become friends again but how do you how do friendships survive that because you and jamie are still good friends yeah you must have to put

in a lot of effort to ensure that your friendship stays real jamie and i are two peas in a pod jamie's about the only person i keep in touch with regularly from the show. People always ask me, it's like, oh, hey, like, how's Francis? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, you know, we worked together 10 years ago. Like, you know, it's like me asking you that, you know, were you ever a waitress? Like, how's the rest of the waiting staff? I don't know. You're all doing different things.

It's a funny one that, but Jamie's like a brother to me. And even in the show, Jamie and I would kind of, we were very aware of what was going on all the time. And we were very aware of what was going on all the time and we were both violently aware that drama sells and we would know

what was going on most of the time right like you know that a lot of that wasn't fully you know it's kind of like

oh it'd be good if we did this and that you know because we would see each other all the time off camera

but that's what the producers would like literally say like don't see Jamie for the next week it's like

we're best friends so I don't know it's all a bit it's like herding cats it's difficult thing to manage when you chose it as a failure what for you is the failure within that is it that people know you as that forever I hate being known as Spencer from Maine Chelsea honestly I really hate it I don't know what else to say about it because Because like, for me, it's kind of like, you know, I've held lots of jobs. You know, I was a chauffeur for a hotel, not our hotel. I was a barman. I worked in the restaurant staff. You know, I've done a lot of stuff. And I realized that none of those are kind of, you know, noteworthy, famous things, you know, that put me on the map. But I just, I don't watch reality TV. I don't like reality TV. I happened to fall into that because I thought it was interesting at the time. It went on way too long. I'm kind of ashamed and embarrassed of some of my behavior on it. I wish that I had cared what people thought because I wouldn't have kind of, and by the way, I don't, I'm not an advocate for actually caring about what people, I think people should do their own thing. And, you know, if you can behave in a way that at least you're confident is, you know, morally correct and sound,

why bother what everyone thinks of you? Like if I knew that half the country hated me, I'm not sure it would bother me, but. I think you're talking about self-awareness. You would have liked to be more self-aware. Yeah. Well, like obviously I behaved in ways that are kind of a bit shocking.

And I just thought, you know, at the time I thought it was funny and cool and lads found it hilarious. And it's kind of like, actually it's a bit, a bit shit. But then again, had I just been this lovely guy, you wouldn't feature in it. Like, you know, so there are loads of characters who are lovely, very careful about what they say, very careful about, you know, their image and blah, blah, blah. Don't engage in drama. See you later, mate. You're out. You know, so it's kind of like, it's a catch 22, you know,

the more ridiculous you are and the worst behaved you are, the bigger you are in the show. And at the time and being competitive, I wanted to be the biggest and best thing about the show. What did your family think of it? Not much, but I didn't think much of it. You know, I don't think I've ever wandered around with some like deluded sense of grandeur that I'm really important. You know, I think Made in Chelsea is kind of like, it was a bit of a joke to be honest to me when we started it.

And like, I wasn't expecting it to get the viewership that it did. And then, I don't know, like obviously I'm surprised actually that my family have never said more about it. Cause my mom used to watch it, obviously,

you know, she would never call me and be like, by the way, you were a total disgrace. that my family have never said more about it because my mum used to watch it obviously you know she would never call me and be like by the way you were a total disgrace I think she saw it for what it is which is entertainment and I think she probably thinks that it's like not real which parts of our parts of it aren't but one of the great things about it is that it led you to do more tv programs and one of them was the jump which i also watched yeah where you met vogue the jump's brilliant the jump is absolutely terrifying that and splash you remember splash when they did high board diving that's like my nightmare but by the way so the jump is like it looks so pathetic on screen i was so disappointed like because like they've made it

i just didn't really understand like if it was me anyway i would have done my absolute best to make the jump look absolutely horrific you know like shot it differently i don't know it kind of looks like you just pop off it and just like fall onto the thing which i guess is the case right compared to professional ski jumpers but i can't tell you what sitting at the top of that thing feels like like it's it's savage savage honestly and like you go down and you obviously can't get off once you're starting and like there's a this is no exaggeration you just can't tell when you're watching it when you get to the end there is a solid drop off of about three meters of just solid drop and then there's like a lip and then the descent starts so if you oh okay so yeah so you have to clear that so you have to fall like from something that's higher than this roof in these big ski things to even

like land the thing and some people would like wouldn't push off properly so like they wouldn't clear the lip and you like you'd land just on top and it's like it just sucked like people people got hurt quite a lot which i guess got hurt she she ended her competition early she still thinks by the way that if she'd stayed in the competition she would have beaten me and i agree with her well why do you like it's just such nonsense because i've seen her like become a jockey because i've seen how fit she is she didn't like ski jumping let me tell you okay fine yeah but wasn't the deal that you had to win the entire competition in order to get a date with her date with her yeah and you did yeah i know yeah no that was a funny one so no we got we got along famously out there and i mean it was pretty casual she says

you know more often than i'd like that she she didn't fancy me like at all. Yeah. Which is fine, I guess, given where we are. And no, I kind of fancied her. I have to say it wasn't like lust at first sight. I thought she was super cool. Like I really liked, I knew we'd be friends for a very long time. I thought that she was just awesome. Like really, like a really cool girl. And we were kind of friends above anything else.

But yeah, it kind of all just happened like really quickly. I really cool girl. And we were kind of friends above anything else, but yeah, it kind of all just happened like really quickly. I was talking about this yesterday. I can't even remember to who, but like, we're quite lucky in the sense that we've grown into what we are. Like it could have definitely not gone that way. Right. Like, cause firstly we weren't, you know, she didn't really want to be with me, which kind of made me want to be with her. Then she said one night when she was at home, you know, if you win the jump, I'll go out with you. And I was like, fine. So I won and I called her straight away and I was like, great. And I'll see you tomorrow night. Let's go out. Lost my wallet in Innsbruck and turned up pissed to this

restaurant. We had a huge night out basically. Obviously I was out with this cow, but I woke up with the stiffest neck. The cow, the cowbell is like really heavy we have it given when you win we have it in the clean co-office and we ding it whenever we like hit a certain milestone and uh i went out with it all night around my neck and honestly it was it was just uh anyway so we had a whopping great big night turned up to see vogue the following day as a bit of a mess and yeah we pretty much immediately started dating i think i told her i loved her on that date wow as well it was very like full-on quite quickly and then yeah i mean you know kids and marriage came very quickly as well afterwards we honestly are so lucky i fully commend by the way people who are together for like five six seven years and then they get married

it's like okay like you you guys you guys know that this is you know it felt quite quick but like we're both like that we're both impatient we're both you know i can't remember the word that i'm looking for impulsive yes yeah well i think the thing that strikes me as an observer of your relationship from the outside is that you are equals and you have this very charming teasing sense of humor about each other, which is very enjoyable as a viewer to watch. That's what I think is one of the most important things in a relationship is just respect for one another. The minute you lose respect for the person you're with, that's a dark time waiting to happen because, you know, just resentment will begin to develop. Little things that they do will

start to really bother you, you know, and it's kind of like there's none of that i have so much respect for her and i think she respects me and she's a tall woman which i'm a big fan of never dated a tall woman before well well done you you've really grown yeah i know i know yeah sadly not physically no but yeah no it was it was a bunch of new things for me that yeah above all she's the most wonderful mother and like that is such an important thing like anyone any guy that I know that ever asks me for advice with you know people that they might want to marry or girlfriends or whatever I always just say what kind of mother do you think she'd be because it's so important in my opinion like my mother was the most amazing mother so anything

kind of less than that you're so used to that right so you know but vogue is she's almost too much with it you know she just loves it she's always thinking of things to do for them always always around for them hates being away from them she's so loving so no that we're very fortunate that i'm proud that my kids have her as a mum that's such a beautiful thing to say well thanks my god I'm feeling emotional I know you're not emotional at all but I'm welling up um let's get on to your second failure because it kind of dovetails with you meeting and marrying Vogue your second failure, as you put it to me, alcoholism slash selfishness. Yeah, I'm still quite selfish. So I still put myself first a lot of the time. And it's something

that I'd like to kind of work on. Less so now, like it's easier with a clear mind to understand, you know, that you should be doing more for others. I also put it down to, you know, Vogue's very busy, but I'm very busy, very busy, and lots of things happening that require, you know, loads of attention. So I don't mean to be selfish some of the time. Like if I'm working like, you know, at night or really early or whatever, like, you know, and I'd love to take my kids to the zoo, right? But sometimes it's a difficult thing to do, although I could be better with it, right? So I'm, I don't know, I've always been selfish. I'd love to be able to change that easily,

but I don't really know kind of how to do that. If I can attempt some cod psychology. Yeah, they do. I feel as though you've had to be very self-reliant from a young age. And sometimes there's a thin line between self-reliance and knowing what you need and what's good for you and really asking yourself, is this what I want?

There's a thin line between that and selfishness and what you're saying to me doesn't sound selfish the fact that you can't take your kids to the zoo because you're working really hard to provide your kids with the future there's that it doesn't seem that selfish yeah there's other things you know well yeah you know i just you know vogue does a lot more than me around the house and she is very busy as well but finds time to do nice things for us you know she always makes sure that there's all the food that we like in the fridge you know she's always on top of every like if i didn't have vogue i was sounding like a prick i think i'd have to hire someone right to kind of to kind of help with

the kind of stuff that she does you know she she's she's brilliant right and i think she's so busy and gives herself so much to do that i think you know i wish i could take half the load off her and i probably could help her more than i do and i just kind of say that i will and don't end up doing it so i probably should at the moment i've kind of every morning i wake up and i think right how can i because because i'm conscious of it. I'm like, right, how can I help Vogue? And I ask her, you know, so recently things have been much better and she detests that, you know. But it's kind of, you know, we've been together five years now and probably, you know, four and a half of those years she's done, you know, a lot more than me and it's been unfair. And this consciousness come, you said that you haven't had therapy.

Have you had therapy ever? I've had some therapy but not not really for anyone listening to this podcast not looking at it you're giving a sort of sneer of contempt as you say that because okay so when i firstly i think there's a stigma around therapy and there shouldn't be i think everybody who wants to talk to somebody should i think an unbiased opinion about stuff going on in your life is fantastic, right? Great. I quite enjoy therapy when I have it, but I also am kind of judgmental of the therapist. Like I'm wondering in the back of my mind, like what this person is actually doing to help me or whether or not we're just having a chat because I can have a chat with

anyone. So I spoke to someone when I gave up alcohol for the first time. It was very helpful. I'll tell you an awesome story in a sec about like the first meeting, but it was amazing. He basically just shamed me and it like had this mad effect on me, which I really wasn't expecting it to. I think therapy is useful if it's helpful, right? Like other, like, God, I sound like a bit of an asshole. Like sometimes other people's opinions don't matter to me that much. Like, because I feel like I have a grip of an asshole. Sometimes other people's opinions don't matter to me that much because I feel like I have a grip on it myself. So if somebody that I love and care about has a different opinion to me, I will take that on board a hundred percent. If a stranger has a different opinion to me, I've almost learned not to listen to that because I've taken advice in business

before and it's been the wrong advice. And the thing that I wanted to do would have been better. And you know, these people are huge executives and it's kind of like, and they were wrong. Right. So I'm just like, ugh. So I try and sum up who to listen to. And I think it's very important to have balanced opinions, you know, and then you make your own mind up. With therapy, I don't know, I've had some therapy, but not, you know, I don't value it as something that I do regularly. And like the Daily Mail the other day printed that, you know, I was in therapy for months before. It's just not true. I don't know where they get these things from. And I would say if it was, I'm not embarrassed about therapy at all. I just think it's good if it's helping.

If it feels like a chat, what's the point? I want to get onto the awesome story that you have about the male therapist. But before that, when did you feel that alcohol had become a problem for you? Kind of late twenties. Did it tie in with when you got married and you delivered a wedding speech and I think you were drunk? Is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was later than that actually, but not long after that. I used to be able to drink whatever I liked and fully function. And this term functioning alcoholic, I think, I think the term alcoholic in general is a dangerous one because people who... It's so dirty, the word alcoholic, that I think it actually gets in the way of people helping themselves because people refuse to believe that they're an alcoholic. So they don't bother trying to curb it because in their head, well,

I'm not an alcoholic. I know alcoholics who drink like fish and they just refuse to believe that they have a drinking problem. And it's like each to their own. You can't help people who don't want to be helped. So fine. I think unless alcohol is a hurdle in your life or it's slowing you down or it's getting in the way of you being a good parent, then fine. I know some people that drink to excess regularly, but they're very happy, very reliable, very good at what they do. They turn up on time, which is something you like, you know, and they're fine. And they don't reek of booze and, you know, they play sport and they're in good shape, but they drink a bottle of wine every day. Crack on. Like there's nothing wrong with that. It's if the bottle of wine a day is making you

get up at 11 and you can't think properly and you're putting stuff off into the next day and you're wasting half your week, how do you get the time back? You can't. Everyone's relationship with alcohol is different. If I drank a bottle of wine, I'd be fine. And if Vogue drank a bottle of wine, she would not be fine. So it can't be judged on the same metric. And that term, well, you know, the NHS say that if you drink more than 14 units a week, you're an alcoholic. Everyone is an alcoholic in that case. Every student in the UK is an alcoholic according to the NHS. So it just, it doesn't work for me, any of that, you know? So

don't really know what I'm trying to get at, but it's kind of like, there should be a better way of exploring, you know, mindfulness around drinking or moderation, you know, just this, this alcoholic, are you an alcoholic? It's like, well, I haven't drank in like three years. So am I an alcoholic? I don't know. You're more alcoholic than me because you probably drank last week, you know? So it's kind of, I just don't, I don't get the term. Yeah. Do you think that you associated alcohol with having a good time yeah absolutely and did that lead to an over dependence on it that you couldn't have a good time without it yeah i guess so it was more of a habit i think than a necessity for the liquid itself right i don't think my body was like dependent on it i think i was just so used to

drinking that you just keep drinking. It's the same as smoking. Like you just get it. Like, obviously I know you can be addicted to nicotine, but I know people who aren't addicted to nicotine. They just smoke three, four cigarettes a day and then they don't for a week. And then they go on holiday and they smoke 15 cigarettes a day. And then they come back and they stop smoking. So you're not addicted to nicotine. You're just picking them up because you feel like the social situation is right for a cigarette. And then others can't put the pack down and they chain smoke all day. So it's the same, right? I think I loved socializing. I loved being out. I loved being the loudest in the room. I put on a film and have a whiskey. It's kind of like, there's no real point in that whiskey. And then it's kind of like that became around the time that I could see the kind of disappointment in Vogue's eyes. And I really didn't want her to

think that she'd made a mistake. And I think that that was how she felt that I've married an alcoholic loser, basically. And that's how I felt. But she didn't make me feel like that. I just thought, okay, look, I've got so much that I can give and offer that, you know, maybe I'll pack this in. Wow. So the therapist that you saw who shamed you, tell us about that. Oh my God. So this was, I won't say who he is just in case he doesn't want to be named, but he, he's got quite a few, you know, a list people famous before. And it was actually my old agents. His name was John Knoll. And he just said, look, there's so much that we can do with you, but you know, you're far too interested in going out and getting fucked up. You know, you turn up to stuff and you're just, you're a bit, you know, you're,

you're a bit of a waster, you know, will you go and see this guy on Harley street? I'll pay for the first couple of sessions. And at the time I was just like, God, how boring, you know, like, I, I was like, yeah, for you, I'll go and see the guy. Went out all night, you know, missed my meeting, you know, blah, blah, blah, rescheduled it. And I thought to myself, right, I'm not going to drink today just to, so that I can, you know, prove John wrong. You know, I'm going to come into this meeting and he's going to look at me and he's going to say, there's fucking nothing wrong with this guy. You know, like, like he's not an alcoholic, you're fine. I had drank the night before, but i hadn't drank that day and the meeting was at like three o'clock and i'd actually made a conscious effort not to drink that day yeah rolled in with bells on thinking you know

that fine this would be easy and i sat down and he and he looks at me and he goes when was the last time you had a drink i was like last night and he was just like do you know how much you reek of whiskey and i was like well i haven't drank today so i'm sure i don't and he was like you smell so badly of whiskey that when you leave and my next client comes in i'm gonna have to tell them that i have not been drinking and i was like i thought he was like just saying it but it kind of sat with me. And then he was like, do you ever wonder why you're not where you want to be? And I was just like, I do just fine, thanks. And he was like, no, no, but like, you're not where you want to be, right? And I was like, well, no, of course not.

And he was like, that's because everyone will have this first impression of you. So like when you walk into a meeting, people will probably be kind and courteous to you. But when you leave, they will say like, fuck me, he is a a total waster that is what people will think of you when they meet you and I was like fucking hell like just Jesus like and it kept coming for like 45 minutes and then he was like do you think you could go a week without drinking and I was like yeah I think I can do anything so like I can do anything I set my mind to. And he was like, well, why don't you set your mind to it and come back and see me at 12 on Wednesday next week and don't have a drink in the meantime and tell me how you feel. And so it started like that.

And we did six months of no drinking because that first week, and by the way, I walked out and I was like angel and demon moment. I walked out and I was like, what a prick. Right. And then I was like, maybe I'll just go and get fucked up now. Right. And then I was just like, actually, wouldn't it be nice to come in in a week and just tell him like, that was fucking easy. Right. And so like, so I did, right. I did the week and actually loved it. And that week turned into two weeks. And you know, at the end of the second week, he was like, do another week. Right. And we just did another week and another week. And then it was like, I did a month and he was like, do another week. And we just did another week and another week. And then it was like, I did a month and he was like, do another month.

And we did six months and then I became really complacent. And I was just like, well, obviously I wasn't an alcoholic because that was so easy. And I feel so great now that maybe I'll just have a glass of champagne every so often. Spiraled back into the world of nonsense. But that was an interesting test for me. And then, you know, I did that again at some point and then just realized that, you know, the ending is always the same and the complacency is an issue, right? So ended up just deciding to go actually sober. I'm kind of in that complacent place now, right? I've been sober for a long time.

And it's kind of like, well, I know I don't have an issue with alcohol because I haven't drank it in so long and I don't feel the desire to do it. So would a glass of champagne or two on New Year's Eve be that big of a problem? And the answer is yes, but it doesn't feel like it would be. Interesting. Yeah. Thank you so much for opening up about that. That was riveting. So when you actually made the decision to quit permanently, was that on your own without going back to this therapist? I didn't go back to him because I had gone back to him previously and he changed the way he was kind of looking. Like it was very structured and very AA orientated. And I've always had a thing against going to AA for whatever reason, for no reason really.

Is it a God thing? I'm not religious in that regard. Not that I don't believe in a greater power and stuff. And I, you know, I'm spiritual, I suppose, but like, it's not a God thing. I really don't know what it is, but I've been to AA and I'll tell you about that in a sec if you've got time. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So, well, I'll tell you about it now. So the time that I wanted to give up for sure, I messaged someone who I'm sure probably wouldn't want to be named, but he's an A-list comedian. He was very kind to me. And he said, you need to get yourself to a meeting. And I was like, look, I was kind of tentative about it. And he said, well, you have to get yourself to a meeting tonight. I said,

I can't tonight, Vogue's out and I've got the kids. And he was like, you're not serious about this. I can tell you're not. You need to get a fucking babysitter and you need to get yourself to this meeting tonight. Otherwise, I know that I'm not dealing with someone. He said, I was like, okay, I'll go to the meeting. So he sent me to the Kilburn men's meeting. And when I say that, you know, there are some people in there that have serious problems and it's an environment that is really full on, right?

And I kind of walked in there and I sat next to some bloke and he looked at me and he went, you look all right. Yeah. And I was just like, you know, yeah, I didn't feel like I belonged there. Obviously, I felt that my issues were real. But some of these guys, you know, like after the meeting, I'm going to go back to my nice house with my lovely wife and my nice kids.

And it's kind of like everyone else didn't have that kind of net behind them you know it was clear that this meeting was their community their net right and I was like I just felt really out of place they lit a candle they put it in the middle of the room and turned out all the lights and everyone had to go around and explain like you know talk about stuff and yeah I mean it came to me and you know I think I even apologized about you know my problems probably not being as deep and dark as some people. I mean, I was one of the last people to go. And honestly, hearing the stories of the others, I was like, I can never allow myself to like, but it was, it was a good, it was a good wake up call. Right.

Cause it was kind of like, well, I guess if my drinking did really spell out of control and Vogue divorced me and, you know, and I lost jobs and I lost everything I you know who knows where I could end up right it goes to Christmas future almost yeah it was really full-on really thought-provoking quite scary found a different meeting the following night because I did message him back and I was like I'm not doing that every week Kilburn's not for me you know I was just like I feel like I want to change and I want to do it but I feel out of place right and he was like why don't you go to a meeting in chelsea i said well yeah i mean that would that not be awkward for spencer matthews i don't know so i did i went to a meeting in chelsea and it was really interesting but nothing against aa aas helped millions of people it saved lives it's a fantastic organization but it dwells in pessimism and grief.

And it's a very negative space, right? And I guess it's supposed to be. So you can feel that others are going through what you're going through and that you have each other. I would far rather dwell in the potential of what a sober lifestyle could offer me, rather than the pessimism of, had I not made these positive changes in my life? Like, what can I become? What can I do with this spare time? What can I do with this clarity and drive? How can I leave my mark in the most meaningful way in the world? That's what I get a kick out of, not reliving the last night that I drank alcohol, right? Because that is just a dark, dull, pitiful place, you know, where I struggled to get to bed because I was so hammered.

And it's so far from who I am now and who I can be that I, to be honest, I just find that burying it and putting a little flower on it every so often is the way forward. Wow. That is, I mean, that is definitely in your skill set, being able to move forward and something you've had to going to boarding school at a young age having to process all of this or not or bury it and put a flower on it alcoholism living your life on screen does it annoy you when people say you're privileged yeah well I am privileged right so but like in the way that they mean it it annoysys me. Like, of course I'm privileged. I get that, yeah. And I understand that. But I think to rephrase it, if you don't mind, I hate it when people think that I'm only something because of my dad. Because actually my dad didn't understand the need for non-alcoholic products.

I had to force my dad to throw some cash into an early round for his benefit, right? Because I knew it was going to be an interesting, exciting thing. And I knew we were going to grow very quickly. And I had the support of some like incredibly famous, you know, funds and business people who I'm very fortunate to work with, but they invested in me, right? And the vision. And that makes me proud, right? So I can already see it happening. Maybe it's just me being paranoid that if we build this business to be a billion dollar business and we sell the business, nobody's going to give me credit for it.

Well, people will, but lots of people won't. People will say, well, that's easy, right? Because he had a rich dad. And I just think it's, yeah, I have a family that loves me. Yeah, I've always had a nice roof over my head. I've always had warm food in front of me. Like I can't change that. So it's kind of like, you know, would you prefer that I went back in time and made my father unsuccessful to prove a point? You know, it's not possible what you're asking, you know? So I think it's kind of, I think when you have a wealthy father or success that's predated you in your family, it can do two things.

It can turn you into a lazy slob, right? Who knows that there'll always be security in the family so I don't have to bother doing anything. Or it can turn you into somebody that's gonna hunt down your father's success and try and beat it. That's me. I'm violently competitive with my own family.

We have fun with it. But do I wanna be bigger, better, wealthier, more successful than my dad and brother? Yeah, obviously. Like it's what I work towards. It's not like the end goal, but like, you know, it's good fun. We're all competitive. Is it true that you and your brother and dad send your mom roses every year?

We send each other roses every year. So it's Mike's birthday. That's so beautiful. The roses go up by one each other roses every year so michael mike's birthday yeah that's so beautiful the roses go up by one each year as well competitive no when when was his birthday when is his birthday okay yeah you know beautiful yeah well it's just you know we keep him alive in all kinds of ways like we you know we have photos of him in the houses obviously we sometimes sign his name on stuff you know, we have photos of him in the houses, obviously. We sometimes sign his name on stuff. You know, if we're writing something from the family to someone, we'll put Mike's name in as well. No, he was a very special kid.

He was wildly like successful for his age as well. He had skill sets that like, you know, maybe I'm just developing now, you know, at 34. He was 22 and he was like a dynamite trader, like a financial trader in the city. Like he, Jim Carney, who was his old boss, is still a friend of ours. And he talks to me, you know, we spend New Year together sometimes. He says, you know, I've never seen somebody that can just see a deal like your brother could ever. And he was a kid. He put me through school and uni with the money that he'd earned. And, you know, there was plenty left over, you know, he was very successful and and had had like an awful lot of skill and talent,

right. So it's a shame, you know, like it, like, I'm sure anyone that loses a sibling or a loved one, you know, feels that it's unfair. But, you know, the circumstances, which, you know, we touch on in the film could have been avoided, I say. Your third failure is about an extreme, I mean, you do have a tendency to set yourself up for extreme challenges in the way that your brother seemed to have done as well. And your third failure is Ice Ultra, which I had to Google. It's a 230 kilometer self-sufficient foot race, which means you're carrying all food and equipment through the mountains of Arctic Sweden. Sounds like a riot. It was so dreadful, let me tell you, honestly, I did the Marathon

de Sable in October of 2021. So last October, and it was the hottest one on record because ordinarily it's in April and it had been canceled for three years because of COVID. And the guy was just desperate to get one out in addition to the one they were going to do in April. So they did one in October and I signed up to, I had no business being there by the way. So my brother had done it before. So that's why I wanted to do it. And he, he did very well. I think he came 170th out of 1200 or something. And I can remember just thinking like this race is reserved for, you know, the mentally ill and just people who just like love to hurt themselves. Like when my brother came back from this race, he could barely walk.

Like his feet were just annihilated. And I can always remember thinking like, I'd love to do something like that one day. I'm not going to, right. But then like, not to be boring, but with sobriety, found myself just like much fitter, much more able, you know, to do certain things. And I thought maybe I'll do the marathon stuff. So I signed up. I went out and did it and it's 250 kilometers across the sahara desert also self-sufficient five stages sleeping rough you know in this thing called a bivouac you know i wish it was a tent

it's not a tent it's like some tarp that's kind of open there's sandstorms like all the time no cold water no showering no bathroom so you know it's proper grim and like by grim i mean like it's really grim 59 degrees the hottest day 59 oh my god you got 250 kilometers to cover and it and there was a bug going around everyone was you know everyone was really badly sick i was sick on my second day it's quite. And it's more a test of mental resilience than athleticism in my opinion, right? You have to, it's strategic. You know, the areas that you can actually gain time, you know, give it hell.

And most of the time, you know, you need to work your way through the tough terrain. And it sucks. It's really long and it sucks. But the third day is 82 and a half kilometers. And it's like, there's a big mountain to go over. So anyway, so i didn't have any music either by the way what i don't understand how it's possible i made that mistake

so i went out and everyone had like ear pods or stuff to like listen to podcasts or like whatever i had nothing right because i was told like people snap their toothbrushes in halves so as not to carry the weight of the toothbrush that's like how much it matters to them so i was like well i'm not going to bring like some fucking music player so i'll just leave it right so so i was just like on my own thoughts yeah yeah that that kind of sucks i wish i had music right but do you ever just walk yeah yeah but you might you wouldn't walk you would like march okay but like really mean, if you walk, like every day is going to take you 30 hours. Like, so you need, you need to get on with it.

It's a real get up and go exercise. It's not like, and yeah, you do much. So I developed this like lungy march where you could kind of save your energy where you're probably going like just a little slower than someone that was jogging. Right. And that was actually like a great, if anyone's listening to this, who's going to do the marathon, get that nailed. Cause that was like this absolute secret source to success in that race. Cause people don't run.

Like were you, were you topless? No. Cause you'd get really badly burned. So you have, yeah, you got chafing anyway through the kit. I've got a scar on my back from the,

you know, chafing. No, it's, it's, it's pretty full on. So impressed. But there's no cold water even. So imagine all the water you're drinking when you're just parched. It's like hot, boiling hot.

And it just sucks, right? It was kind of low. But finishing that was epic. I came 69th. That's incredible. My brother was absolutely... That is incredible. Wait, out of how many? Like 1200 again? 880.

That is unbelievable. It was good. Anyway, so I thought I'd throw that in there. Yeah, congratulations. Sorry, James. No, but it was good. Then I got like a bug for it, basically. I was going to get a tattoo of it at one point on the way back on the plane, my big medal.

And I was like, I'm an ultra athlete. I could do this. I can do one of these a year. I got really excited by it. So I signed up to the ice ultra. Yeah. That, I mean, not to be boring. It's a very similar story, you know, same distance, similar thing, minus 36. Like I hate the cold. Like I hate, like heat, no problem. Grew up in the heat. Fine. Cold is something else. Really really hated it like the first day was 62 and a half kilometers so slow it took 16 and a half hours like two and a half thousand meters of

elevation everything about it was just dreadful basically before going up this mountain they were like make sure to keep everything covered because like the wind is so bad up there that if you have like a single bit of skin out in your face like you will get frostbite i was like right so i'm gonna lose my nose then on like day one perfect so you know and then like i remember getting to the end of day one and i was furious i just i hated it it was just so long and awful and because it's like a single file thing because of the snow the people ahead of you are faster the people slower than you behind you so you're on your own i was on my own for the whole day and i was just literally like i'm not enjoying this at all this shit do you have any music this time no no no i just no because you can't get your thing out to

like change anything oh my gosh i took my glove off to take a selfie and like my hand didn't recover for the whole day i took like my eyelashes were frozen and so my eyebrows and i took i got to the top of this mountain i took my phone out took a selfie honestly i thought i was going to lose my hand it sucked so much a terrible way to lose a hand it turns out that i had covid so i didn't feel great anyway but i thought i'm in arctic sweden now so it may as well crack on so i did the first day when i got in like i was just coughing like i had the worst like it felt like a chest infection so they put me on antibiotics on the first night and they were like look like we probably would pull you out of the cough like i had the worst like it felt like a chest infection so they put me on antibiotics on the first night and they were like look like we probably would pull you out of the race but

if you want to do the second day go for it and it might clear up clear up running 60k and minus 36 yeah all right mate cool so i thought fine yeah let's see if this clears up given the activity that i'm yeah so it didn't clear up it got worse i did the full second day got to the end and that was all of the altitude done so the rest of it's like flat so i was like okay feel like hell but like you know at least the rest of it is just flat and i could just chill but my cough was like really bad and they covid tested me and it was positive and that sucked because it meant like immediate retirement from the race part of me was quite happy I mean when I tell you this race was just hellish it was it was it was so I'd do five more marathon styles before doing this again

yeah so they had to pull me from the race they had to put me in some it was actually literally the day that the rules had changed with COVID and where you could actually legally travel with it but it was like i was just thinking like i'm not going to be the first person to test this out like you know so i'm just like gonna come home and get completely annihilated by everyone if it got out so even though it was in fact illegal to fly with it i was just like i'm just not going to fly with it so i got a cab who i told i had COVID wore a mask to a hotel and I chilled there for like three days until I tested negative. I think I had it like, you know, going into it. I just felt like hell to be honest. And then like, as soon as I had a negative test,

I flew home to see my family, which was great. But that felt like a failure because I didn't finish it. Right. So it was kind of, I don't think it was, it was kind of out of my control. To be honest, I did suggest like a different start time to everyone else, because that would have been very possible. I was like, why don't you send them off at seven and send me off at nine? I won't see anyone. I won't, you know, I'll finish the thing on my own, basically.

And at the end, I'll just go into my own room. And they were like, we can't knowingly send you out there with COVID because it can, you know, destroy your lungs. And I was like, fair, fair enough reason. Yeah. Something like that. Will that now niggle at you? And do you feel like it's already in you that you want to do it again just to prove that you can? It sounds terrible, but if it was a more famous event, then definitely.

Because I was about to say, like, this is... Because nobody knows it. No. And it's actually... I know it's awful that I'm suggesting that I only do it for the recognition of it, but it's not fun, that race.

Like, I would have, I would gladly do the Marathon de Sable again and not tell anyone because actually, like, the race was, like, so cathartic, so interesting.

Like, I really loved it. This is, like, very serious physical pain for, like, six straight days. You don't get heat at night either, by the way. So you come out and you're in like some little log cabin with no electricity. It's freezing.

You have to get out of your freezing clothes. And like, even the 10 seconds from being naked to getting in your sleeping bag is like, feels like murder. Like, like it's the worst. And so it's like, not really,

really. Cause I think, I think if I was going to do it and everyone would hail me as some kind of hero then that would be great but but interesting so there is still a part of me that does care about what people think well not only because i think i think it's nice to put yourself through hell but you know i think obviously everyone likes a pat on the back right yeah you know i think even if it's just from your wife or whatever like what you just did is like really amazing it's kind of like it is nice validation i'm not so much interested in validation from like people i don't know right doing this kind of because my brother's done a

lot of this kind of stuff and i remember always thinking like wow he's amazing right and it's kind of like i want my kids and my family and stuff to think that i'm capable of doing anything right and every time you do something like this, it is to raise money for the Michael Matthews Foundation. It is. Yeah. So it's, so yeah,

we look after about 6,000 kids at the moment. In Tanzania and. Tanzania. Yeah. So, so Tanzania and we have a couple of schools in Asia, but it's definitely more an Africa centered thing. And we build schools in kind of remote locations of Africa

that without them, essentially, kids would have to walk, you know, 10, 20 kilometers to get to and from school, which obviously is very dangerous in these parts of Africa. So I think, yeah, we provide young girls basically with an education that they probably wouldn't have otherwise. It's fantastic. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes. Oh, thank you. I have loved this conversation so much, Spencer. I'm sorry, because we really have run over and I know you need to dash, but I so appreciate your candor and your charm and the fact that you were very kind about my geeky questions on Made in Chelsea,

but that you are someone with all of this depth. And I really appreciate that you've shared that with us. Thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail. It's a great pleasure. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.