How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S16 Ep9 How To Fail: Greg James on radio, rebellion and failing to be a good at fame

Episode Date: March 1, 2023

One of the only times my friend Fran has been truly impressed by a podcast guest was when I sent her a picture of me recording with Greg James. During the pandemic, Fran and her family would listen to him on Radio 1 every morning and he helped them through those long lockdown days with a necessary a dose of good cheer.Many people around the country will relate to that story: since 2018, Greg has hosted BBC Radio 1’s iconic breakfast show, attracting around five million listeners every day. He's got one of the most beloved and familiar voices in broadcasting, so it's a total joy to welcome him to How To Fail.He joins me to talk about his failures in cricket, in fame and...dog ownership.--Greg James's new Formula 1 podcast, The Fast and the Curious is available to listen wherever you get your podcasts, along with his cricketing podcast, Tailenders, and Teach Me A Lesson with Greg James and Bella Mackie.His chldren's books, co-authored with Chris Smith, are avaialble to buy here.--My new book, FRIENDAHOLIC: Confessions of a Friendship Addict, will be published next month and is now available to preorder - at half price - here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodGreg James @gregjames Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. Very excitingly, I mean, for me at least, my new book is coming out. It's coming out on the 30th of March. It's called Friendaholic, Confessions of a Friendship Addict. And it sort of does what it says on the tin. It is the story of my journey to understand how and why I became addicted to friendship and what I went on to do about it. It's also an attempt to give friendship a language. It has a crucial influence on so many of our lives.

And yet for so long, it's been overshadowed by romantic relationships. It was a real journey of exploration for me writing this book. I loved it. I loved what I discovered. I loved trying to put into words one of the most crucial aspects of my life. And I got the chance to speak to lots of interesting people, including five of my dearest friends, each of whom has a chapter devoted to them and each of whom expresses a slightly different aspect of friendship. So in between all of that, there are thematic chapters that look at the history of friendship, that look at the social influence, that look at how we can put friendships into words, how we end friendships, what happens and what it feels like if you're ghosted, what impact

social media might have had on friendships. If that sounds like your bag, then I would be so, so delighted if you would press a pre-order button and buy a copy of Friendaholic now. It comes out on the 30th of March, but as I'm sure you all know, pre-orders really, really help authors and bookshops. So do press pre-order wherever you want to get your copy. You can also go to waterstones.com. They have copies of Friendaholic there. I'm so, so grateful for all your support. Writing books means the absolute world to me.

And being able to talk directly to you, my beloved listeners and readers, is one of the great gifts of my life. So that is Friendaholic, Confessions of a Friendship Addict by Elizabeth Day, out on the 30th of March 2023 and available to pre-order now. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day,

and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Greg James is a radio and TV presenter, best-selling children's author, and since 2018 has hosted BBC Radio 1's iconic breakfast show, attracting around 5 million listeners every day. His parents were both teachers who moved around a lot in James's childhood. He says he found it easy to make friends, even on childhood holidays in France, when not being able to speak the language, he swapped sweets to win people round. This easy, affable charm has stayed with him. On the radio each morning, he balances irreverence, enthusiasm, and, when necessary, a seriousness intended to meet the mood of the

country, wherever it happens to be. He guided many of us through the challenges of COVID-19 and broadcast to his mostly 15 to 29-year-old audience after the Queen died. But he's also the guy whose first ever guest on The Breakfast Show was Wallace the Lion from Blackpool Zoo. Alongside his radio career, James writes children's books with newsreader Chris Smith, co-presents the cricketing podcast Tailenders, and hosts Teach Me a Lesson with his wife, the best-selling author Bella Mackey. His ability to embrace diverse interests might explain why, when asked a few years ago what he wished he'd known when first joining Radio 1, James replied that it's okay to be passionate and nerdy. Greg James, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you for having me on How to Fail. What a

pleasure. This is an intro. I like the chuckling. The chuckling is my favourite sound. I had forgotten that I'd ever said that about the, that's some amazing research because that took me straight back to the campsites that we used to stay on and the way you would sort of get a bit like in prison, I imagine, he says, never been inside a prison, that you used to stay on and the way you would sort of get a bit like in prison I imagine he says never been inside a prison like you barter with stuff and you're like you do deals with chewing gum and that's what it was like I remember you sort of make friends with kids from other countries on holiday by exchanging those little pez sweets in the dispensers or by bits of chewing gum I would totally be your friend with a pez dispenser at your disposal are you a nerd interesting question I

I think the reason I'm thinking about it too long so maybe yeah well I'm I don't know what nerd really means I'm very nerdy about certain things like I love radio stuff I love gadgets I love technical things I like computery things I like walkie-talkies and airband radios and I like cars and I like trains and train sets and things so probably some sort of nerdy interest in technology and sort of special effects and filming stuff I've always I was always quite into sort of making my own special effects as a kid but that was essentially sort of setting fire to some toy cars and filming it and pretending that I was a director or something. So that idea that you wish you'd known it was okay to be passionate and nerdy,

where did that come from? Like, did you not realize that before? Or did you feel like you had to pretend to be cooler than you were? Yeah, I think everyone does. I think I thought that at school. I thought I've got to pretend to be cool at school because that's what you have to do to fit in. And it's mad that at school, for me at school, it was very much like don't step out of line. Don't wear anything that's too interesting or don't say anything that's too out there. But then when you're in actual life, that is encouraged. Or maybe it's just the times have changed a little bit. And actually you're encouraged to be yourself and wear an amazing colored coat or

whatever it is but at school it was like why are you wearing that yellow coat what's the matter with you that sort of thing so I think it was a bit of that learning when I was growing up and when I started at radio one I guess you think oh radio one's quite cool so maybe I've got to be we cool so I guess it was a bit of that but I I think as I've grown up, I've learned or realized that it's actually a great thing to be many things and that a personality in any human is multifaceted. So you are sometimes funny, sometimes serious, sometimes sad. Sometimes you're nerdy or sometimes you're introverted. Sometimes you're feeling extroverted. Sometimes you're anxious. sometimes you're not. So I guess I applied that to, sometimes I can do cool things. And sometimes I'm just, I like being on my own and playing with a model train set or, you know, tuning into an air band radio or what all those things that I did when I was a kid. I was like, well, I'm still that person, but I also do lots of other things as well. So I think everyone is many things. You're 36 now, aren't you? Yes, I am. Yes. I feel that getting older is an exercise

for me and becoming more myself. But it's taken me this long to be this much myself. Do you relate to that? Completely. Yeah, I do. Yeah. I think there's a reason why I got good at doing Radio One shows and radio when I was sort of just over 30. Because it takes a while to get good at those things and to master those things and I would not have been any good on The Breakfast Show if I'd have got the show at 25 or even before just before I was 30 I think I wasn't quite ready and didn't quite know enough about myself and wasn't looking out enough I think I spent a lot of my 20s looking in and going how do I become better or funny or more popular or

whatever it might be but when you I realize when you look out then everything becomes a lot easier because there's lots of things to help you and there's lots of amazing people to learn from and to bounce off and to be inspired by and you can't do it all on your own so I think I've refound fearlessness as well that I had maybe when I was just in my teenage years doing radio stuff or just arsing around on a stage that I refound and went oh yeah this is what I love doing this I'm very comfortable doing that but it was always a collaborative thing I'm very interested in your childhood because you speak so fondly about it and it's actually really refreshing when I do this podcast in fact

I'm not sure if it's ever happened before to be able to say in the introduction you made friends easily and you had quite a nice time yeah doesn't make for a great headline though does it that's another part of this job is that you feel like you have to have some sort of struggle and I guess there is somewhere but I look back fondly on it and it was yeah it was very happy I remember having like a lot of attention from my mum and dad and we used to play a lot and put on I don't know shows or things that not shows like a musical theater kid but like you know sort of they would film me doing something or we would be making something or we would be making something or we would be cooking or we'd be doing stuff in the garden or playing sport or whatever so I

remember it being pretty happy I did have friends for sure and I was a fairly happy kid I would not pretend to be otherwise but I definitely wasn't the loudest and I I wasn't the center of everything and I still don't really like being the center of everything, unless I'm in my close sort of friends group. But yeah, I did have a really good time. And my mum and dad were great. And I guess they were just good at looking after kids because they were good teachers as well. You did have this childhood illness, but I think you were a baby when that happened. I was. I was a very little yellow baby. There was, I think it was called rhesus disease or something, where it was basically my mum's blood and my blood didn't mix properly and it's okay now these days it's fixed with drugs quite easily but because this was 36 years ago and the drugs weren't around I was just very very

poorly and my mum had problems with me she had huge problems actually with conceiving and a lot of sadness around that so I was sort of seen as the last ditch attempt and I was brought home on Christmas day like the baby Jesus and I remind my parents of that every year. Wait so is it your birthday? I'm the 17th of December. That's the same as my sister. It's a good time to have a birthday. Your sister is 10 years older than you and that makes sense that if your parents had trouble conceiving I'm so sorry for that struggle it must have been really tough in those days yeah you know they still talk about it and they still mark certain days where there was a certain sadness and yeah that's a thing that I'm aware of or became aware of later in in life so I guess I've always been very grateful to be alive I think when I found that out, I thought,

shit, you went through some really horrible things. I'm not going to take the piss too much and be a bad child. Well, you were quite the opposite. You were an incredibly good child. You were a deputy head boy. I was. You used to play cricket for Hertfordshire under 18s. We'll come on to that.

You joined Radio 1 fresh out of university and broadcast your first show the day after graduation so my question for you Greg James is did you ever have a rebellious phase? did you ever do anything wrong? here's the problem with when I said yes to come on your glorious podcast is I went well I don't I feel like I've had a really lucky time I feel like a fraud because I haven't had a spectacular failure yet who knows what's around the corner

I was thinking that I'd have to do something awful in order to get on this podcast as a sort of rehab thing and go guys it was tough time I hit the skids type thing but you're very welcome to come back when that happens I will okay don't you worry about that well I have a rebellious face I just feel like I've always sort of been quietly cynical or quietly rebellious about certain things. But I never messed around my parents, as I said. I didn't feel the urge to do that. I always felt more than rebellion. I just liked sort of being a piss taker, I guess.

And I always felt like it was, I think it's probably still what I'm like now, which is if you get people on side and they know that the joke is sort of rooted in a kindness or like a friendly punchline but I feel like you can kind of get away with anything I didn't like fighting apart from doing wrestling of course because that was a huge part of my childhood watching The Rock and The Undertaker but that's another story me and my mates used to wrestle a lot but I never would fight I never did drugs I never when I drank a lot when I was when you were allowed to sneak into pubs with fake IDs, but that was sort of the extent of it. I mean, as a teenager, I was never the bad kid. I wanted to get on with people. I wanted to make people laugh. I wanted the teacher to think I was at

least trying and trying to impress them. If I had a teacher that I really respected, I would mess around in class a bit and I would love making people laugh and do stupid stuff like sort of hiding in the cupboards and stuff I would never be a bad kid but I would like I would like messing around I guess showing off a little bit okay so your rebellious phase probably lies in your future well no I think I think actually I met my sort of most hedonistic times when I joined radio one probably yeah in my 20s when I was on this enormous radio station I had loads of listeners and it was great fun I was doing my dream job and there's just lots of exciting things around I was getting paid really well so I was like oh my god I've made it I've

I've moved to London for the first time I've got to London without any sort of handouts my mum and dad didn't have to intervene and do anything. I mean, they couldn't have done because teachers, you know, classically don't earn that much money. And I was like, shit, I'm in London. I can afford to live here. This is really cool. So I started going out a lot

and, you know, just the classic things and falling in and out of love quite a lot and all of those trappings. I think I kept my off the rails behavior quite private, which was good. I was pleased about that. A lot of people come on this podcast and choose their 20s as one of their failures

because looking back on it, at the time you feel like you're having the kind of fun, socially sanctioned fun that you should be having. But actually looking back, it feels quite confusing and exhausting. Yeah, but I think it probably should be for a lot of people if you have the luxury of it being a bit of a mess then that's good I had the luxury of not having a long-term partner as in a marriage or anything or kids or anything

to sort of root me in maturity so I was allowed to sort of piss around and be a drunk idiot and turn up and be like I'm all hung over on the radio and this is great. I'm gonna go to this party and I'm gonna go out with that person and all of that. I didn't really enjoy my 20s that much. I loved that I was doing my show and I had a nice time doing it, but I didn't really enjoy it as much as I should have done, maybe. Yeah. Before we get onto your failures, I want to ask you about why your radio hero is Terry Wogan well I think he was the master of making a big show feel very intimate and personal and like it was just you with him sharing stories and he was a great ringleader which is I think what I really

like to try and emulate which is i like being in the thing but i don't like it all being about me i like bringing in a fun caller or finding a hilarious clip or a brilliant meme or making a guest say a funny thing i obviously like making people laugh but i really like the role of going oh how about this how about that now more of a conductor set the pyro off yes balloons drop them or whatever it might be I think I feel quite happy in that role and I think that's what he did really well he sort of sat in the middle of that show and a great letter would come in or he would just talk to a listener or have a guest and he would just bring out the best in people so I that's

why I like him so much and he was just so warm and it felt effortless. And I've talked to a few people that work with him and they said, well, he did just walk in at sort of two minutes two and sit down and do the show. But I think it's impossible for anyone to just naturally do that. I think that takes years of practice of being a professional. But behind all of those jobs that sound effortless or look effortless there's a lot of work that's gone into it and I think he really loved radio so much of course one of the things he didn't have to contend with was being kidnapped out of the blue and locked in a room

somewhere while the entire nation tries to solve clues to find your location what are those moments like I love those because it plays into all my favorite things, which are, I like messing around. I love the idea that I'm allowed to mess around with an entire radio station. And that feels rebellious in a way. And I think that's your point on, did I have a rebellious phase? I like things being a bit anarchic and rebellious and just going, well, there's a really good hierarchy here. The BBC is like the BBC, and there's like really good hierarchy here that you can the bbc is like the bbc and there's like a boss so it's great to sort of push that a little bit and take the mickey out of that because of course you should take the mickey out of that because it's like a headmaster kind of structure so with the radio one challenges we do we're allowed to do it and i think that's amazing that you've got this radio station with loads of listeners who are waiting for some fun stuff and suddenly you you go, right, this week, the show is going to be live in Brighton and we're going to put together the world's biggest jigsaw puzzle. Oh, and all the puzzle pieces are hidden around the UK

and you've got to try and help me find them. And lots of people respond so well to that because it's, you don't hear that on Heart or anywhere really. You just don't hear sort of nonsense for the sake of it. And I really like stupid stuff for the sake of it going back to what I was talking about with radio one maybe being one thing like it's the cool music place with all the cool things it's that and it's also a place where you can just be really creative and have a fun time and all those things can go hand in hand so I've really loved expressing myself like that I guess and I work with amazing people who help me

put those things together and I just let them go and I say how about we try and do like a I don't know a kidnapping thing or like a why don't we do like an escape room and then someone will come back and go right we've worked up this idea and let's let's do it for real and it's just so enjoyable I do feel for your wife in those moments. Did she know what she was getting herself into when you got married? And actually, did you know what you're getting yourself into before marrying an author? Yeah, I think we knew each other pretty well by the time we fell in love and got married. She encourages that side of me. That's an amazing thing because I've been in relationships

where that side of me has been squashed and I've thought, oh, am I being too immature here? Am I being too silly? Should I be a bit more grown up? And I've had that feeling before. And actually, when on a few of our first dates,

one of our first dates, I would, a bit I like to do when I'm hamming around is just hide around the house or just hide in a shop or something or behind a bookshelf in a shop and when I did that to Bella and she found it amusing I thought well that's that's great well yeah yeah that she finds that amusing so she doesn't think I'm a complete sort of ham which I am a lot of the time but I was like that's good and she gets me and then it brings out a silliness in her that she's got and that's

really nice so I think a relationship is all about bringing out the best sides of each other so we knew and also on her and her job I really wanted to make sure that my job wasn't always front and center because it's quite a loud job and that doesn't always go to plan and I'm very conscious of that as sort of man who has big job sometimes can be very overpowering not just for my friends or my family but for my partner for Bella I don't want that to be the only thing that exists so seeing her success with not only jog on but with how to kill your family has been unbelievably rewarding for me because I've just gone shit you did this and I just feel nothing but proud and keep going like keep going and she does need a bit of that sometimes a bit of

you know you're great this is just relax you're fine this is keep going keep going have a bit more of the confidence of the middle class white guy yes that you live with and I'm like come on you can push this shit through I started a cricket podcast and it had six episodes and now it's got loads like you can just pretend everyone's pretending a bit so just do a bit of that well talking of cricket brings us onto your first failure, which is your failure to be a professional cricketer. Yes. The hard hitting stuff guys. I thought I'd bring the big hard hitting stuff. Yeah. No, but I'm sure it does go deep because I know that cricket is such a passion of yours. Yes. So you were very good at cricket as a teenager. I was. Yeah, I was pretty good. Basically, I think I would have

been better at sport if I'd have gone to a fee paying school. I think I didn't quite have the public school edge for cricket at that time, particularly in Hertfordshire. I'm not saying I was dragged up, but I went to the Bishop's Dortmund High School. Very reputable, comprehensive, had a great time, loved it. They were actually great at extracurricular stuff and I did loads of drama stuff and they actually did cricket but they sort of fed you into the Hertfordshire system and I was sort of the only kid from my school that went and did trials in my year to go and play for Hertfordshire and when I got there I was sort of up against a lot of posh kids from all the public schools and it was quite geeky and I just immediately went into myself and was like I don't like this

don't belong here I don't I don't know these people this is really frightening and I'm 16 and I'm 15 16 I'm not really developed and I don't really know what I'm doing and I just got quite intimidated by it and I just was, I'm just not cut out for this. And I didn't have it mentally. Also, I thought, I thought, I can't do this. And it's not enjoyable. And the only reason I ever played any sport was because I found it really enjoyable. And I just thought, nah, this is not going to happen. But that's okay. Because I found my confidence in other things. I've really enjoyed being on a stage and doing comedy shows and sketches and hosting stuff and hosting cabaret nights.

And I did a few plays at school and I had an amazing teacher called Mr. Howes, who was actually weirdly a physics teacher, but did extracurricular drama. And he said, come do this play, come and do a reading. So I did that and I thought, oh, yeah, I love this. I'm really good at this. And I don't feel scared and I don't feel intimidated. And I feel really at home with this sort of creativity. And I think the cricket side of it is that I'm just not a good sports person probably.

To compete at that level, you're not being creative. You're being sort of single-minded. You're being so dedicated to your craft. You're having to train all the time. And actually I just, I liked having fun too much, I think. I'm very struck by that idea of not belonging with the posh boys um partly because I I have a similar experience in that I speak with quite a posh voice but actually we moved to Northern Ireland when I was four and I never

fitted in because I spoke with this weird voice and I never picked up the accent and yeah it is crushing and then when I came to England everyone just had assumptions that I came from a certain background I was like actually I'm a dairy girl I know but you're a dairy girl I mean that's now the coolest thing ever now that you're a dairy girl I know so grateful to dairy girls literally my vintage yeah but it is crushing feeling like you don't belong at that specific age I think and do you think that's really what is behind this failure do you think you would have gone on with it if I don't really dwell on it and don't really like to dwell on it because I'm so happy with how things have worked

out I could not be more content with my life this is I sit here on a podcast called how to fail and I just feel I feel very very lucky that I found my thing lots of people don't find their thing or have those little bits of luck that help you get to your dream job so yeah I guess the accent thing I find really interesting because I remember when I joined radio one Chris Moyles thought I was just a posh student yeah I guess you know to Chris Moyles growing up in Leeds maybe I was or maybe I am but yeah the accent thing I couldn't sit here seriously and say that a very normal southern accent has held me back in any way because it hasn't it hasn't at all do you know what I was talking to my sister

about this other night and I've never really talked to anyone about it and I've definitely not talked about it on a podcast but I was chatting to my sister and I said, cause she's done really well in her job, but we were both very normal Bromley based childhoods, which were just in a like fine little terraced house in Bromley in the 80s and 90s. It's just very standard sort of middle England sort of upbringing of everything was okay-ish unless there was a problem like the boiler went and suddenly you can't pay it and I said to my sister did that drive you at all and she was like yeah it did actually because I wanted to have a life where

I wasn't panicking about suddenly not being able to do the big shop at the weekend and I find that really interesting that that's where I came from I don't really think about it like that because I've lived quite a privileged life for the last 15 years or so but it was a nice reminder because you can only have this conversation with your siblings really but we were talking about what people think of her now and she's like if people knew because my sister was she's like proper Bromley she was but now she's different now because people change and grow up and her kids are having a different life and I'm having a different life to my mum and dad and they had a different life to their parents like my dad and my mum were the first ones to sort of go and do further

education out of their families and stuff so I just find it so interesting looking back through family stuff it's really interesting yeah also because the class system as it exists in this country has become so much more subtle and insidious but it still underpins so much of who we are where we came from. And at the same time as not wanting that to be the case, we're also aware that it is the case. Yeah, but I really love sort of being in the middle because I actually quite like not belonging. I've always found that you can observe better if you are sort of in the middle, because you can have friends from all over the place and you can, you relate to all sorts.

A thing I remember my dad because he managed to sort of rise to the ranks of being a head teacher at a school in Enfield and I remember watching him at a sort of parents evening do or whatever it was and I was there because no one could look after me or whatever it was. I remember him chatting to the kids so these quite rough kids it was Albany school in Enfield so it was a slightly failing school so a lot of kids who were you know having a lot of trouble at home and a lot of trouble at school. Equally, he was brilliant talking to them as he was talking to the chairman of governors, to the new teachers, to the older teachers, to everyone.

And he sort of, I looked at my dad and you can put him in any situation and he will, like one of his good mates is a guy who he met in the pub who was a plumber. But also my dad's really good when I take him to a posh cricket thing I find that quite interesting I've always related to that and gone well I feel very comfortable talking to anyone really but it's because I don't feel like I belong anywhere but I like that feeling and I was I was like that at school I had seasonal friends I was good mates with a guy in my English class he was so clever and I just loved his brain. He wrote amazing stories and I was good friends with him. And then I'd be friends with the sports lot in the summer because I did cricket and I'd be friends with the drama lot. Or I'd be in the choir a little bit and be friends with the music crew.

So I guess that's sort of what I've always been like, I guess. Nothing. Or malleable. Or as you say say like an observer of the human condition but that's i love that and you you you have those skills as well you you're interested in people and you like probing and working out why someone's like they are or looking at why is that teacher like that why do they walk like this or why why does mr cook was carry a paper under his arm that must be a thing that he's put as his characteristic and he's, you know, all those sorts of things.

So I've always liked looking at stuff and writing stuff down, I guess. Do you think cricket is still posh? I think, yes, it is. It doesn't have to be. But there's nothing wrong with being posh, by the way. There's nothing wrong with having that privilege, but you should be aware of it. And I think the cricket authorities are aware that there needs to be more investment in

grassroots sport for people who don't have 10 cricket pitches at their school we used to go and play all those schools and i'm like fucking hell this is your is this your school this is amazing and i was just jealous what do you mean you've got a cricket master and the cricket master was often a former player you're like I'm sorry you're being taught by I don't know Alex Tudor or whatever he used to play for England what chance have we got so I think it's just the rebalancing of everything but if you look at the current England men's team I mean Ben Stokes is a state school kid from the northeast there's some great examples of amazing sports people it's just about having those opportunities having those

great local cricket clubs and for a while it was the preserve of public school boys and it will always be a bit like that because they make great cricketers because they have the resources and stuff but yeah it is but I also think that cricket is misrepresented by lords actually and lords is an amazing place to be it's sort of like a museum but it's not real and it's not what real cricket is like and cricket is enjoyed by people from all walks of life people from all backgrounds all classes it's just that that's a very famous image of the old white guys in straw hats and red and yellow ties and stuff falling asleep while reading the telegraph that's just the image that it has to a

certain extent but i think there's some great things that are changing one day cricket the hundred the women's game is absolutely exploding at the minute there's more cricket on tv terrestrial tv so lots of people are seeing it it's not just just a five day game for lots of people now. They're watching it for a couple of hours and all the rest of it. So things are changing, certainly. But I think sometimes law does it a disservice, but things will change. And if you look at how cricket is enjoyed in India, for example, it's relatively classless. It is played as football is here. It is played on whatever patch of land kids can find. And as long as it's accessible and you are given a bat and given a ball and said, this is the thing you can do,

it will change for the better. Final question on this failure. Do you think it taught you anything instructive about letting go of dreams? Sorry, I'm pouring water, not having a wee. Sorry, what was your question? Do you think it taught you anything about letting go of dreams or when it's appropriate to let go of an ambition?

Probably, but I've replaced it with a fucking great one. So that helped me, certainly. And I've also found my life in cricket later, and it's with cricket and radio my two favorite ever things so I've sort of married those two things together and that was always how it was supposed to be I guess because I wasn't cut out for high level sport I mean I probably wasn't good enough for a starter but I wasn't mentally tough enough either and didn't want it enough I suppose and I saw how much a lot of the other players wanted it and thought, yeah, I think I'd rather be on the radio or sort of doing a funny thing with my friends.

So, yeah, it did. I'm sure it did. And it taught me to back out of stuff if you're not enjoying it. Don't just blindly go into it. Yeah, I think there's a great power to be had in knowing when to quit. to quit. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit.

Your second failure is your failure to be a good celebrity. Why are you a bad celebrity? Well, because I never wanted to be a celebrity. You don't really think that that's what happens when you get your dream job, I think. Do you not? Was there not a part of you that quite wanted to be known or recognised? There must be. I think it's just a big contradiction because you want to do your best stuff and I want to be

really good at something. So I'm definitely driven to do that. I'm also ambitious and I wanted to get onto Radio 1 and to see how far I could take that. And obviously if The Breakfast Show was a part of that, then I'd take it. But I guess my point about that is I didn't want to do all these jobs in order to be famous. I think that's it and that always worried me that I was just seen as like a guy who wanted to be famous and I always wanted to be I guess well known for doing a thing that people liked I suppose it's a bit wishy-washy and I don't really know what I'm getting at but I don't feel like I'm great at being famous as in I don't naturally just pick up a conversation with someone who's well known at a party and be like, hey, I'm on the thing.

You're on the thing. Let's talk. I find that odd. I'm not very good at the red carpet thing. I'm not very good at going to stuff and being seen at things. So I guess it's that sort of thing. Or just being in the paper for no reason or I just I was just very phobic of all that stuff and I just didn't like it for me I think the people that

I've always respected have always gone about their business and gone about their work and then just gone and I'm retreating I'm just gonna have an actual life at the same time I think that's it I've never felt the need to be on the sidebar of shame I don't want to be doing all that sort of thing I guess I tried it sort of accident when I went out with Ellie all those years ago. Goulding for anyone who doesn't know. Clang name drop but I mean we had an amazing time and we we actually were in love and had a great time but obviously she was a pop star, is a pop star. I'm on Radio 1 and it was like, oh, that's a tabloid thing. And then suddenly just went, oh, tabloid nightmare.

Not for me. I just don't want to do that. What didn't you like about that aspect of it? I think it's a bit mucky. Just don't find it that fun. I don't think it's funny. I think that's the main thing. Right, right.

I don't think that's not, it's just not funny. Being famous isn's funny. I think that's the main thing. I don't think that's not, it's just not funny. Being famous isn't funny. Being funny is funny or being good at your job is the impressive thing. I guess I've been also very fortunate that I've been on the radio every day. So I don't have to remind people that I'm there. And so I do understand that there's a bit of push and pull with that yeah all my favorite people comedians presenters whoever they've all just gone about their business and gone that's it my work says everything I want to say and I don't necessarily need to be around all the time and how hard is that balance in the age of TikTok and Instagram when your audience for the Radio Mall Breakfast Show is that kind of generation like how do you balance that requirement with a personal life I think because you're in control of it largely then it's really great because it's an extension of my show or it's an extension of our podcast or whatever it is and I love messing around online I love

making little videos or doing little memes or jokes or whatever it is and I love messing around online I love making little videos or doing little memes or jokes or whatever it is because I think those are part of my skills that I've been learning for a long long time and I was just really fortunate that when Radio One got me on in 2007 then it was just as Twitter and Facebook were becoming massive. And I remember my boss said to me when I was about 21, 22, he said, the good thing about you, Greg, is you're a digital native. I went, all right, granddad. But he was right to a certain extent is that I'd grown up or I was at least 17 or 18 when MySpace, all that stuff,

YouTube was starting, facebook was sort of happening so i was learning it at that time so doing video content for radio one was not a problem for me also because i wanted to do tv stuff i was like i love doing stuff on the camera so that really helped but doing social media things it just feels like a lot of fun and you can reach people in a really interesting and exciting and very personal way i think tiktok's great for example because it's it's so personal and so raw and so stripped back and so unfiltered it's like a radio show it's storytelling it's sort of beginning middle and end so it's doing like a radio link or it's finding a funny meme and saying here's the funny bit so actually i think it's made everyone funnier i think it shows how much people

love nonsense and silly stuff that's what i like about it it's made everyone funnier I think it shows how much people love nonsense and silly stuff that's what I like about it it's like your childhood self setting fire to toy cars and filming it all over again if I I can't work out whether I would have been amazing at TikTok when I was 15 now or it would have been the worst idea possible because it would have been so embarrassing I can't think of it be a good thing or a bad thing probably bad because it would have been so embarrassing I can't think of it be a good thing or a bad thing probably bad because I would have been doing early radio shows on there I would have been I don't know trying to be a stand-up or I would have been doing dances I don't know with I just maybe it would have been awful but I love the creativity of those sorts of platforms and

it's inspiring because it feeds the show and then makes me go oh wow that's how good you have to be to make those bits of content and I think it feeds into the show brilliantly and vice versa I feel that people who crave fame possibly have a hole where their self-worth should be and maybe weren't loved enough as children that's my cod psychology maybe and then they end loved enough as children that's my cod psychology maybe um and then they end up craving the thing that never gives them what they actually need so the adulation of thousands of people actually is never going to help you fill that abyss but it strikes me that you maybe this is i don't know if this is right or not you've never

felt that you need to be loved because you had it growing up. Guess so. And I feel very loved in my life. I've got amazing friends and a brilliant wife. And I'm very close to Bella's family. I'm very close, obviously, to my family. But we're all really tight. And in the last few years in particular,

I've had a real re-evaluation of going, okay, I probably work a bit too much. I need to make sure I set aside proper time for my actual life. So those are the only things that I have to keep an eye on because this job is exciting. And there's so many opportunities that I go, right, let's just fill the whole week with work stuff. But actually I need to fill the week with taking my dad for a pint or going to the garden center with my mom. Cliches. Mom likes the pub as well. Actually, cliches mum likes the pub as well actually dad hates the garden center but i think i realized that it's all sort of bollocks like how famous and rich do you need to be because there's always someone more famous than you there's always going to be someone richer than you you just need to

make sure that you're having a nice time and feeling sort of stimulated at work I feel really creatively quite happy I guess I've always liked making the thing whatever comes of it I suppose and do you care if people like the thing or by extension like you are you a people pleaser yeah I want all the things that I make to be received well by at least some people. So yeah, of course, I'm not sitting here like a complete Buddhist being like, whatever happens, happens. No, I want my radio show to be really successful. I want my podcasts to be listened to and liked by people. So I'm just monstrous enough. I think sometimes this stuff. Yeah, of course, you're ambitious, and I'm driven. And I want to challenge myself more than anything and go, can I make that? Can I write that book?

Is that going to be good? And so that's what drives me, I think, the creative challenge more than, I want to be liked and loved by everyone because I don't. I'd like to be well thought of and I want some people to like what I make. You are very likable. You're a very nice person. And I know nice as a word sort of gets a lot of schticks. I don't mind it.

But you are, you're lovely are you but are you and I suppose are you conflict avoidant no definitely not really I'm quite good in conflict are you teach me your ways well I think you can do it calmly and I think you can always do it kindly I don't shout I know what I want with stuff. I like the nice mantra or, oh, he's lovely. Just a slight tangent. I was on the New Year's Taskmaster. Greg Davis was watching one of my VTs and went, you're just a lovely boy, aren't you? And I was like, I was really taken aback because I was like, what the fuck? What do you say to that? You go, yes, thanks, sir, type thing. And it was sort of simultaneously what I wanted to hear and what I didn't want to hear.

Fascinating. Because you go, oh, is that all I am? Is that all? Those sorts of things can be quite reductive. But obviously it's a lovely thing to say to someone. I've forgotten your question because I went off on a tangent. A conflict avoidant. Oh, a conflict avoidant.

No, I think I'm really good at knowing what I want and making those decisions if I need to. I'd rather not have any sort of conflict like that. But I think inevitably in work, and if you're working in quite a pressurized environment, because as fun as The Breakfast Show sounds, it's a lot of pressure to get that show right and to not drop a bollock on air. You know, you don't want to get it wrong, do you? You don't. You don't want to say the wrong thing and get it wrong and be awful and be rude to a guest or you just don't want to get it wrong. And I don't think You don't want to say the wrong thing and get it wrong and be awful and be rude to a guest. Or you just don't want to get it wrong.

And I don't think you can do those sorts of jobs without having some sort of edge where you go, no, I am laser focused on doing this. So I do have that mode, definitely. That's really good to hear. But I think anyone who's doing a job successfully has to have that. You know, I think everyone does to a certain extent. No matter how, in inverted commas, nice you are. are as I said no one is just one thing all the time but I think you have to have a ruthless side every now and then to go no no I need to get this done and I want to get it done and everything else can wait where do you put your darkness Greg James where do I put my darkness

I get terrible road rage like that's where it comes out. Yeah. I am quite road ragey. I've just started cycling again after a bit of a break from cycling. And I get so cross with cars. You have to be though. Because it's like a defence mechanism. Yeah. You feel so vulnerable.

Yeah. I have sort of fantasies where I'm like, if that person gets too close to me and they stop at the next traffic lights, I go over there and I fucking kick that wing mirror off. That's what I think. Okay. I knocked on a cab driver's door the other day. Did you? Yeah.

Because he nearly, he was so close to me. Yeah. I just went, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. He went, what, mate? I went, you were really close to me back there. He went, was I? I went, yeah, you were. I was sort of hoping that he'd go, you fucking what?

And he went, oh, I'm really sorry, mate. I went, well, don't do it again. Have a great day. Like you should be. Yeah. What else do I get? So I had a bit of that. I got really cross at a bus driver once because I was waiting for the bus

because I'm incredibly down to earth uh take the bus man of the people and um he swooped in so quickly his ring rear hit my head oh actually hit my head and then i went mate you just hit me in the head i was on the pavement you just hit me in the head with your bus he went oh shut up i went what do you mean shut up you sit with the fucking head of your bus look how big your bus is so i do get i get riled at transport there you go great answer i get riled at transport i mean transport problems aside the darkness comes when i'm tired and stressed and overworked and I have really horrible moments of self-doubt sometimes but I think they're normal and it's good to talk about those things

there are times when I feel like I can't do it I wake up and go how am I going to do this show today how am I going to should I do this am I any good I've been doing it for ages maybe I should be doing something else now so I have those moments of crippling sort of self-doubt and I guess their tiredness induced anxiety and I think as many people in the public eye saying those things as possible is important because a lot of people only see the veneer of the breakfast show and go oh he's happy all the time and he's cheerful the whole time but I have those moments where I think this is too difficult and I'm just too tired for this and I need to just go and run a bookshop or something or just like take myself away from all this you have those moments where

you think you're not cut out for it all and I think that goes back to the fame thing where I don't feel like a famous person I don't feel like I fit in as a celebrity. I don't feel that, which probably goes back to my school stuff, which is I just like being a person doing a job. And when I over complicate it is when it goes a bit wrong. And I think, oh shit, should I be on telly more? Or should I be, oh God, I need to be doing this or how am I? Oh, I should be. And that's when I get myself into a bit of a pickle, but I know how to get myself out of that now. I see what else I get pissed off at. I get really cross on a plane. I get really cross at the busy bodies who get up and charge through or charge past your seat before you've got to.

Because the rule, the unwritten rule. Yeah. You get off in sequence. You get off first at the front or you peel off at the back but people who jump in front of you I do sort of say something or I'll make a point of pushing in front of them later it'll be very petty and Bella Bella will be like what is he doing and I'll just basically look like Basil Fawlty with long legs just sort of of cut in front of them, going, excuse me. Do you get recognised ever when you're doing things like that?

Well, that's the other thing you've got to worry about. Yes. You've got to be careful. Yeah. Yeah. There was a guy who went on TikTok. It was a trend called Celebrity Nemesis. And it was like someone had said, tell me who your Celebrity Nemesis is.

And he'd done his video and said, I'll tell you who mine was. Long story short, it was me. But it was because I'd cut in front of him at a Starbucks once. And it went viral. Millions of people saw this thing. And it took months for people to stop asking me if I'd jumped in front of the queue at this guy's Starbucks. So we did it on the show. And I basically said, I don't really go to Starbucks very often.

But there was a spate in my life where I had a lot of Marmite and cheese paninis it turned into a bit of a problem actually it was about Alan Partridge when he ate too much Poblerone and on air I went hand on heart I couldn't tell you if it wasn't me but I would do it again but also I respected him and also was so angry that he tried to defame me. Yes. But so you have to be careful. You do have to be ultra nice. I mean, I'm nice to everyone anyway. That's a natural thing.

But even cheerful old me, even I have bad days. You've just got to be really careful because you're only one TikTok away from being called a cunt. Mantra for life. Yeah. I often think about that. Like sometimes I don't feel like talking. Like I actually really enjoy not talking. I'm glad today is not one of those days. Today is not one of those days. I'm loving this, but you were talking more. You see what I've done there. Am I talking too much from now on? Exactly. You're talking in a lovely amount, like lovely Greg James, but there were just sometimes, and I imagine when you come off the radio, having done a three hour show first thing exactly you're talking in a lovely amount like lovely greg james but there are just sometimes

and i imagine when you come off the radio having done a three-hour show first thing in the morning you probably don't want to have a little chat with oh absolutely person driving the bus that's my lowest ebb yeah i've just given it my all yeah for three and a half hours and 10 30 comes around we do a few little bits for the next day a few pre-records or whatever or plan some stuff for the next day and eventually we come out the building at say midday ish and i bump into someone i know i'm just like i do not want to talk to you now but you want to be nice and of course you should be because what does that cost you so i i do have to have constant words with myself about it i always get

my energy from people so you can't turn that off and turn that on it can't be and cheese paninis and cheese paninis a lot of yeah i got my energy and cholesterol problems from my cheese paninis i can't go on air and say the listeners mean everything to me and then off air not give a shit about them i really do and you can't pretend that and so you always have to try and summon that up and if you meet someone in a pub or something who listens to the show every day even though in that moment I might be tired stressed texting my mom about my dad not being very well whatever I think it's really important that you just give people your time and just go thank you so much that's really nice of you for listening to my show. You don't have to,

you could listen to Jamie and Amanda. I don't know why you would, but you know, you could be doing anything with your morning, but you choose to spend time with me. So the least I can do is say hello to you. So I think there is a responsibility to like turn it on sometimes. And that's okay, because that's, that is part of the job and I have a great time and I'm very lucky to get to do it so it'll be so disingenuous I've met presenters and people actors as well who say how much they love their fans love their audience love their listeners but actually if you were to ask really dig down into it there's a disdain for them but I really love the listeners of my show I love those people because I was a listener to shows that I loved and I'd be devastated if the presenter was being

disingenuous with it I interviewed Michael Palin the other day which was a life highlight I know that's a name drop but it's relevant someone asked him and I think he's the greatest man that's maybe ever lived he's like the David Attenborough of him, and I think he's the greatest man that's maybe ever lived. He's like the David Attenborough of the human world, I think. He's shown us more of the world than anyone has really. And someone asked him a question, similar question to you

about sort of being nice. And he was like, someone said, do you mind being nice and like being the nice person? And he said that John Cleese always had a problem with him for that. He said, oh, you're always so nice.

And Michael Palin went, well, John, what's the alternative? People think you're awful. People think you're not nice. You'd rather people think you are nice than not nice. So I think that is maybe the people pleaser bit in me. You posted a photo on Instagram when you met Michael Palin and you recreated a shot where you had first met Michael Palin as a teenager. I think, were you 12?

I think I was 10. It was very sweet yeah I still am a bit shaken by it because he is number one in terms of people I've been inspired by and just adore I think he's so magical as a person he just has done everything it's so interesting he liked you he sent me an email after the thing sent me an email and i showed it to bella and she went oh you're friends now i'm friends with michael palin that was a real thing yeah we went on holiday to new york when i was 10 and we found out that he was at barnes and noble signing copies of his new novel hemingway's chair i mean i didn't really know much about Ernest Hemingway when I was 10

but I knew a lot about Michael Palin because my sister had shown me around the world in 80 days and then my mum and dad had shown me Python and I just thought he was amazing I was like wow so he's the guy that got slapped in the face with a fish but also he's on the Suez Canal doing a trip this is what an amazing guy and I just thought he was brilliant. And so we went and met him and took a photo. And at the interview we did a few weeks ago before Christmas, I took the book along and the photo and the thing that he'd signed for us all. And he was so lovely about it.

It was really nice. It wasn't awkward, but equally he would rather probably have been at home by that point, but he knew how much it meant to me. And so I'd always want to do that for somebody else. I'm not saying for a second I'm Michael Palin, but it meant the world to me that he just took time and went, oh, wow. Yes. And I was on that trip and I remember going here and doing that signing. And he took a photo of the photo on his phone, maybe to pretend that he was interested,

but I believed it. And I just found him completely charming. It's very sweet. Both passionate and nerdy, in fact. I can totally see you having a Michael Palin-esque career. Well, that is the dream. Yeah. Yeah.

Get me a series where, what age do you have to be on the BBC to get a series where you go on a train? 55 if you're a man. Obviously, if you're a woman, then you're out of jobs at 55. Yes. Yeah, long out of them. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Let's go on to your final failure, which is your failure to take control of your hound. Failure to come up with any failures. That's my failure. There you go. It's very meta. That's a good one. Failure to control my hound.

Is this Barney? Is this barney which is barney social media famous social media famous really good shortcut to having a personality saying you have a dog really good shortcut to just getting in a conversation so i use him appropriately he pays for himself in other ways he is aside from my wife the greatest addition to my adult life i've always wanted to have a dog we didn't have dogs when i was growing up but i had friends who had dogs and i was always a bit like oh my god this must be quite fun but also is it i didn't really understand what it meant and then when i met bella she had a dog who sadly passed away rest in peace bonnie but we brought barney

into the house from battersea which in itself is insane that there was a pedigree chocolate Labrador at Battersea. Me proclaiming that I'm not posh. Love cricket. Got a chocolate Labrador. Yeah, all famous, yeah. We went to Battersea and they showed us a few dogs and Bella got there before me and she said, whatever you do, don't show Greg that Labrador.

And they showed me the Labrador and they showed me the Labrador and I went that guy that is the guy Labradors are difficult puppies are a nightmare but he's been the greatest thing ever he reminds me to not take anything too seriously that all the cliches that you go on walks with them and you're just locked into them and they're stupid little ways and I play games with him and I teach him how to catch and all of that and he's a great companion sleeps on the bed only on weekends because he's a lump and always wakes me up he's just a friend that's just mad but I'm friends with him and he's friends with me and we have such a nice time but he runs the house he sleeps on the bed we've got my dog

bed he never uses it he has the sofa he owns the sofa he owns the living room he owns the kitchen that's where his water bowl is he owns our bedroom that's where he sleeps he gets annoyed when i try and get into bed but i sort of love it because he had he had a shit life you should get him on this he was yes he's the real one do you think he'd say yes he was I think he probably would it depends how many treats you got in here but he had a shit time

and I feel so happy and proud that we managed to give him a good life he has no idea how lucky he is he also has no idea how famous he is

he gets spotted more than I do does he yeah in the park people are just like oh my god is that Barney I'm like

yes and also Greg James is on the other end of the lead excuse me but he's just great fun and he's just really fun and I guess you know animals live in the moment and throughout the pandemic he was a great reminder of just try and switch your brain off if you can and just play a game with your dog yeah Mary Oliver has this amazing quote about animals living in the dissolving now just like you're always in the present with them he has no choice yeah he has no choice but to be in the present moment and one second he's barking at the doorbell then you say treat and he goes treat and then he goes oh ball oh tired sofa up water

bored now sit down no go upstairs now no actually i'll go downstairs again and it's just a really lovely way to be but he had a really shit time because he was given up like a lot of puppies are eight months because they stop being the cute andrex puppy and become a sort of gangly uncoordinated giraffe type creature and they get big and barney is big he's like 40 kilograms he's like a big lab so this family just went we can't deal with it which i can't understand but i'm also simultaneously grateful that they were bad owners i want to ask you about, but you're also very welcome to say you don't want to talk about it. Let me preface the question like that. Because I have a cat and I don't have my own children, but have tried and failed thus far to have my own children. And having my cat, I think

has taught me that I am capable of being a mother. And dogs are really fucking hard. I know that. They're like babies without nappies when they are older. And so I always think that people who have dogs and who commit to the care of dogs in that way are showing what good parents they are. Yeah. And I wonder how you feel about that comparison and how you feel about parenthood.

I don't know what it would be like to be a parent. I imagine it's simultaneously incredible and a fucking nightmare for your entire life. My parents worry about me every second of the day. And they are old. And I am old. And my nan is still alive. And my mum is now worried about my nan who's, by the way, 100 this year. That's amazing. My mum's in her 70s and my nan is worried about my mum is now worried about my nan who's by the way a hundred this year that's amazing my mum's in her 70s and my nan is worried about my mum still and so there's that responsibility side

of it which I can't get my head around really I would want to be a really good parent and I think I treat everyone I love really well and I would obviously change my life completely and bend over backwards for a kid and you know welcome them into the world and want them to have an amazing time and all the rest of it but I think the panic is something that panics me now thinking about that as a responsibility Bella and I've talked about it a lot endlessly sometimes to the point of tedium sometimes we've had disappointments we've had moments we've gone oh no we don't want to do this but I think we sort of settled at this moment on life can be wonderful with kids involved

your own kids involved and life can be wonderful without your own children and I don't know if this is too sort of business-like to compare it to but I've always thought that if I hadn't got my dream job life would have also been okay but in a very different way and I think that my mum and dad's life would have been great in a very different way if me and my sister hadn't come along so I think you can argue it both ways and that's really where we both sit at the moment which is we've got some amazing kids in our lives. I've got a great niece and nephew. My sister-in-law, Lizzie, has just had a little kid. So Bella's now got a nephew. And I write children's books. So I'm around loads of kids at school events and literary festivals and all of that. So I feel I can help lots of kids without having to have my own. I think that's sort of where I sit at the moment is I don't necessarily need to have my own kid in order to feel like I'm contributing to the future in that way. Thank you for answering that. Because speaking personally, I really value that you and Bella

talk about a normalised not having children. And I'm so sorry for the disappointment that you and Bella talk about and normalize not having children. And I'm so sorry for the disappointment that you mentioned. Bella wrote a beautiful piece about your miscarriage. And I'm so sorry for that. And I'm also really grateful that you have talked about this in this way on this podcast. So thank you. No, not at all. I mean, it's it's not really anything to do with me. I didn't have to go through the physical trauma of it or the you know the physical traumas that you have had to go through but I understand them I guess probably because of my mum I guess and I saw how that messed her up and it always kind of is there in the background so I'm ultra aware of it all but yeah also these decisions shouldn't be taken lightly. We were in a lucky position that it happened initially.

So I don't know. I think it's like a lot of things are work in progress and we will live our lives whatever. And we will always make the best of it. And we will always try our best to have a great time with each other and with the people around us. And with Barney. And with Barney, And with Barney.

Yes. Who unfortunately will die at some point. Greg, don't say that. I just wanted to bring it back into an uplifting note to end on. Yes, he will die at some point. We all will. Let's leave it there. That's true.

One statement I haven't said publicly is I would like to outlive my dog. Okay. That's all I wish for in life that's my scoop yeah hello Daily Mail we've got him we've got him James what a joy I'm so happy you came on my piddling little podcast you are so sweet as if this is piddling in comparison to the radio one breakfast show it is You are a tonic to the nation. You are a lovely man. I tried very hard to get you to admit to a dark side.

I think we almost got there with the road rage. Really enjoyed that bit. And the Marmite and cheese panini. Thank you. But thank you, thank you for being who you are and for coming on How To Fail. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.

it's been great if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist