How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S17 BONUS EPISODE! Dan Carter: one of the greatest rugby players of all time on what failure taught him about winning

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

Dan Carter is one of the greatest rugby players in the history of the sport. The former All Black is one of only a handful of players to have won multiple World Cups and holds the all-time international points scoring record. His other achievements include - ahem - being voted the world’s sexiest male athlete in 2010.Today, in a very special bonus episode, Carter joins me to talk about how he learned to live alongside failure and how this made him into a better champion. I promise you this is not just for the rugby fans - Carter has so much to say about mindset and focus that I truly believe listening to him can help everyone take the first steps towards a more fulfilled life.--You can pre-order Dan Carter's new book, The Art of Winning: Ten Lessons in Leadership, Purpose and Potential here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodDan Carter @dancarter_ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Dan Carter is considered by many to be one of the greatest rugby players in the history of the sport. The 41-year-old New Zealander played for the All Blacks in their Rugby World Cup winning teams in both 2011 and 2015 becoming one of only a handful of players to have won multiple World Cups he holds the all-time international point scoring record and spent 12 years as the key playmaker of a team that achieved the highest winning percentage of any international sports team ever. But you don't have to be a sports fanatic to be interested in what Carter has to say. He's also a UNICEF ambassador and a sought-after corporate speaker in leadership, whose clients include Allbirds and LVMH. He was the first ever leader in practice at the Oxford Foundry,

an entrepreneurship institute at the Oxford Foundry, an entrepreneurship institute at the university founded by Apple CEO Tim Cook. A father of four, Carter's wife, Honor, is a former New Zealand hockey player, which I'm sure makes for some competitive games at the family home. And not that it's relevant to his sporting prowess, but Carter's other achievements include being voted the world's sexiest male athlete by Cable Channel E in 2010. In his new book, The Art of Winning, Carter distills two decades at the frontiers of high performance into 10 lessons on leadership, purpose, and potential. Some people look at failure as all doom and gloom, and at the time

it is, he writes, but failure also presents opportunity to accept what went wrong and learn from it. And what can come out of that failure is greatness. Dan Carter, welcome to How to Fail. Thank you very much, Elizabeth. Great to be here. Very excited to be here and talk with you. And you've now got a new book. I know, out of my bookshelf. Yes, absolutely. And it's a very striking cover. Cable Channel E would be thrilled with that cover.

Oh my God, you clearly did your research, but I did not expect you to be bringing up that one statistic. Oh my goodness. That was way back in 2010 though, who knows who it is now? Yeah, I have no idea. Very embarrassed, but a great way to start the interview. I'm sorry to make you squirm. But that quote that I end on, honestly, reading your book, it was like it was designed for this podcast or vice versa. I'm so grateful to you for being here and also for putting into words so much of my own philosophy. And I just

wanted to start really on that note of greatness. Do you feel great? I feel great in your studio here about to talk to you. But I think greatness is, it's not something you achieve personally, where you put the flag in the ground at the top of the mountain and go, I'm great. It's something you're always striving for. And whether you achieve it or not is determined by other people. And when you have a set purpose and something you're striving towards really does give you that motivation to strive of achieving very unique and special things. So it was something that was always inspiring me I didn't want to be just an all-black I wanted to be an all-black great yes and now that

I've finished playing I'm not going to sit here in front of you and say I achieved it I'm I'm one of the great all-blacks but I achieved a lot through that journey and a lot of the success that I had were off the back of learnings, failures, disappointments, setbacks and that's why learning about your podcast really resonated with me because I sit here in front of you and the person that I am today is off the back of the learnings that I got from those setbacks. It makes you so much more resilient, so much stronger. People focus on my success, but they forget about the injuries, the form, the self-doubt, the not reaching your goals, all those setbacks. And the learnings that I got from those made me stronger and made me even more

motivated and determined to strive for greatness. Yeah, there's a big part of the book, and that's why it's great to sit here and be able to dive in a little bit more about some of those failures. Yeah. Well, I love New Zealanders. I've never been to New Zealand, but it's one of the biggest podcast audiences is New Zealand. Oh, that is brilliant. So shout out to everyone listening in New Zealand. I appreciate you.

I flew all the way from New Zealand yesterday. Yeah, there you go. So it's great to be here. And so a little bit jet lagged. So if I start yawning, it's not you or your interview technique. It's my jet lag, but it's great to be here. Oh, it's so kind of you to come straight off a flight. You say in the book that the art of winning could just as easily have been called the art of evolution. Why is that? There is no structure or formula to winning. It's like, if you do this, this, this, this, you're guaranteed success. So something that I learned is actually you need to navigate, find your own style, learn who you are, take key learnings along the way so winning for me was was more of an art than a formula and that was just

through a lot of the learnings and knowledge that I learned through playing professional sport for close to 20 years and you do you need to grow and evolve through that time in order to be successful so you're constantly adapting you're constantly sort of pivoting, changing direction, adjusting, learning, implementing, executing. It's just this huge learning curve that you're on, you're navigating. And I saw that as an art. And that's why, you know, I titled the book The Art of Winning. What is wakapapa, and have I pronounced it correctly? Close. Okay. Yes,

whakapapa. Is that what? Yeah, whakapapa. Yeah. Yeah, so it's a big part of our heritage, our Maori heritage in New Zealand. And in order to move forward, you have to look back at where you come from. And it's a really important part of the mariculture is remembering the people that have gone before you where is your your ancestors your heritage who are you as a person so we looked at that in the all-black environment back in 2004 when we were working on sort of reshaping the all-black culture so we can't move forward unless we actually look back. So we started to look back at some of the incredible All Black sides that have gone before us, the 1905 original All Blacks, the 1924 Invincible All Blacks, two legendary All Black sides, the 1987 Rugby World

Cup winning side, the 1996 All Black side. So we started looking back at the teams and then also the players that have gone before us. Effectively, that's our whakapapa, our history, our heritage, who we are. Once you learn a lot about your whakapapa, then it gives you the strength to move forward and feel like you've got that strength and empowerment of knowing the history of who you are and where you've come from in order to give you the motivation to walk forward and embrace new challenges. So when I finished playing, I knew the power and strength of whakapapa and as I was trying to navigate this new chapter of my life and sort of work out who I am as an individual

now that I'm no longer playing rugby and a lot of people saw me and even I saw myself as, geez, I'm Dan Carter, the rugby player. When you realize actually you're not, you're Dan Carter and rugby was a big part of your life. But in this next chapter of my life, I need to repurpose. And in order to walk forward with confidence, I needed to look back. So, you know, I started talking to my parents about

their ancestors and their people where they came from I learned a lot more about the little community the little village of Southbridge that I grew up on you know realized that you know identify myself with this mountain that is next to the village that we live in this is my local river this is my lake this is who I am as a person so once I learned a lot more about myself and where I came from it gives you the the confidence and belief to be able to move forward and accomplish anything you put your mind to that's so beautiful because I often wonder on this podcast what the secret to self-esteem is or that kind of inner voice that knows itself and for me it's been a journey of authenticity

but I think what you're saying is sort of the missing piece in that there's a community of people in your history that you've never met whose shoulders you stand on and that idea of identifying yourself with a mountain and that it's so striking to me. Yeah, it's just something that's much bigger than yourself. You're wanting to continue the legacy that's gone on before you and it's something we used to really push to the players and the All Blacks. There's incredible history that we've learnt about and we have these little All Black books

that has all these pages on the history of the all-blacks. And when you become an all-black, you get an all-black jersey. It's not your all-black jersey. You're just a custodian of that jersey. And your sole mission is to enhance the legacy that has gone before you. So you can't be an all-black forever, but your mission is to wake up each day and work out how can you enhance the legacy that's gone before you. So when you finish playing for the All Blacks, because you're just a custodian of that jersey,

you hand the jersey back and you get real satisfaction of whether you enhanced the legacy or not. I felt like after playing for 13 years that I did enhance the legacy. It's a really proud moment and as long as people are coming into that environment with that mentality of wanting to grow and enhance the all-black legacy the you know the all-black culture and team is going to be in a very strong position and how does that affect your parenting there's probably a part of the book that is quite interesting so I have really high sort of world-class standards in everything I do it's

all about high performance aspiring for greatness I'll use an example of when we first went into lockdown when the pandemic came about so we had to start homeschooling at home had two children that got taken out of school and all of a sudden had homeschooling so I was like right if we're homeschooling this is going to be the best homeschooling in the world. This is your breakfast time. This is your mass time. You can have a break here. We can do PE here. Then we do writing. Then we're going to do reading. And it was like a military camp that I'd set up for my children. After day one, they hated it. My wife's looking at me going, what the hell are you doing? They're children. This is home. They're not in the army and I was like okay I

overstepped the mark there so it was a huge learning curve for me is to actually sort of let them grow and understand that they're just children you know I'm an adult and I need certain sort of procedures and structure in my life to be the best I possibly can whereas they're still navigating they're still finding what they care about, what they like. So I'm a little bit easier on them. I'm more of just a supportive father than one that cracks the whip

and say, you gotta do this or that. And I just let them be children and try lots of different things. Your wife sounds brilliant. And I wonder how helpful it is having someone who understands the pressures of a very high level of athleticism. Was that important to you? Oh, it was incredible.

Just the fact that she played hockey for New Zealand and was often travelling, she knew the demands that it took of being an international sports person. The sacrifice, the dedication that you have to make to play at the highest level. So she took a lot of weight off my shoulders because she knew, especially when we started having children, and she actually had to give up work and sport to raise a family. Whereas I was still playing, I was still an All Black, still playing professionally, she knew there were certain things and I needed to be the best rugby player that I

could you know things like I've never actually woken up in the middle of the night to look after our children she understood the importance of sleep and rest and recovery in order to be able to to go to work each day so she sacrificed a lot but she knew you know what it took to play sport at the highest level and you know I'm really grateful that she was so understanding and had that knowledge and was really sort of supportive of me continuing to chase my dreams when effectively you know she stopped hers to raise a family do you get up in the night now not so much she's amazing I get up early in the morning I'll do the morning shift yeah so she gets up through the night now? Not so much. She's amazing. I get up early in the morning. I'll do the morning shift. She gets up through the night and then I'll let her sleep in the morning while I do the

school lunches and breakfasts and everything. So yeah. Before we get onto your failures, or actually this probably leads into your first failure, but I'm really interested, given that you have spoken so eloquently about the idea of legacy and heritage, have spoken so eloquently about the idea of legacy and heritage. What were you like, Dan Carter, aged five? I grew up in a little town of 750 people, a farming community in Southbridge. This farming community lived and breathed rugby. My father was a builder, my mother a school teacher, and our dads lived on the same street his whole life. 67 years, lived on the same street, built a house, five houses down from where he grew up, Nana's house. So they're part of the DNA of this community. So as a five-year-old boy, it was very sort of carefree, great country lifestyle,

weekends down at the rugby club where dad was playing rugby. He had four brothers, and they all played rugby rugby so it was a big part of my life and then there was this rugby world cup that was on in 1987 it was the inaugural rugby world cup co-hosted by australia and new zealand and the all blacks went on to win that rugby world cup and something was ingrained in me as a five-year-old boy it's like man these are my idols man i want to be an all-black this is my dream but I never actually thought it would happen because I grew up in this little country town and a five-year-old mindset was like all blacks are supposed to come from the big cities like you know and Christchurch Auckland Wellington they're not supposed to come from little villages

like like Southbridge but it was a dream of mine so it was a very sort of carefree upbringing hanging around with my cousins my mates out on the backyard every day after school we're playing rugby or kicking goals it was yeah it was a great childhood. For someone who's never played rugby what is it that you love about it physically speaking what does it feel like it is a physical contact sport but the camaraderie of going to war and a game is like going to war you're literally going into battle against your opposition it's physical it's demanding there's high pressure a whole lot of expectation and you're implementing this game plan against your opponents, and anything can happen at any time,

obviously within the rules. But that feeling that you get at the end of 80 minutes where you're sitting in the changing room and you're looking at your teammate in the eye and you're going, I'm proud of you. You know, a really satisfying moment of working all week going to war and then sharing you know a drink with them in the changing room is just something I love that going to war with your best mates having done the planning the preparation the work and then executing out on the field for 80 minutes one of the most sort of special parts of the week that I love was immediately afterwards where you're looking at your teammates

in the eye and going, bloody well done. Or actually on a few occasions in my career, and I can tend to remember the games that I lost more than the games that I won, where you look at each other and they go, I didn't quite get it right. But we're going to be so much better for learning from these mistakes and learning from this setback this disappointment and it almost gives you new motivation it's like right we're much better than this let's go again and you almost want to play another game the next

day unfortunately have a whole week to learn and stew over and do better next time but it's yeah it's a challenging demanding game I think the average lifespan of a rugby player is is only six years so I was able to yeah I was able to drag it out um into my late 30s which is quite rare but yeah it's a grueling hugely demanding sport and and my body is thanking me that I'm no longer a rugby player, I can assure you that. Do you still dream of it, literally dream, go to sleep at night and dream of a rugby match? No. Okay, have you ever? No, so now, oh, yeah, when I was playing all the time.

But since finishing playing, there's not one part of me that wants to go out there and play another game of rugby again. I achieved so much, I was really happy and satisfied with the career that I had and I was one of the rare few that was able to finish how I wanted to finish even though the pandemic speeded up slightly but to have a career that I did in the fairytale finish of a rugby world cup final in 2015 which is my last international rugby game I'm just you know so grateful now my mind has switched off from being a professional rugby player so I don't miss going out and playing rugby there are certain things that I miss around the camaraderie the banter with your teammates the constant competition and challenging each other at training that I

miss the real teamness and brotherhood of being a rugby player I miss that but the physicality going out there to war for 80 minutes I've switched off with my mind on that and now I'm quite happy just sitting back and being a supporter like everyone else final ignorant question from me given that camaraderie is so important is it possible for you to be in a team with someone you don't like or how do you manage it if that happens yeah no no my wife often asks all these people in your team that you don't like or they're on a different journey and yeah things like that I very I didn't have anyone that I didn't like. You know, there's obviously people that you'd spend more time with,

your closer friends, but I did not like anyone in the team. They were there for a reason. They were there for a job. I needed to trust them. They needed to trust me. So there is a real brotherhood, especially when they buy into the purpose or the vision of the team. It's like you're all aligned.

But yeah, there can be occasions where they're not pushing the boundaries. They're settling for maybe mediocrity that you shouldn't live in a high-performing environment like a professional sports team. And there are going to be some times where you have debates and challenging each other. But as long as those situations in particular, you're not having to go at the person. Every decision that you make or every conversation that you have is what's best for the team.

And as long as you've got that mentality and you're able to deliver those messages in a way that can be confrontational, but it's not rude, it's not personal, and if they don't understand that it's not for what's best for the team, then, you know, 10 too often that they don't last very long in the environment anyway. So, yeah. Okay.

Your first failure is the year that you decided to take your rugby more seriously, which was 2000. And you moved, didn't you? I did. So tell us what happened. I started playing rugby as a six-year-old after the story I just told you about being a five-year-old boy and wanting to be an All Black. I started playing rugby the following year, and I played all my junior rugby out in the country. And it was my second to last year of high school I was 17 and I started

to get selected in some rep teams for the first time New Zealand is made up of two islands the North Island the South Island and I made the South Island school boys team which was a big representative team for someone from the country little country school so it's a big moment for me and that's when the first time I ever thought, maybe I should take rugby a bit more seriously. Actually, maybe this is the stepping stone to me being a professional rugby player. Maybe this is a sign of actually, I might be able to live my dream of being an All Black

when I never thought that it was a realistic opportunity. So I'm going to take my rugby a lot more seriously. So I left the high school I was at and the little country school and moved into the city for my last year of high school. On your own? I would drive in and out each day, or else if we had training, I'd stay at my auntie's house who lived close to the school. But all of a sudden I was going to a school that had

400 students to go into an all boys school Christchurch Boys High that had over 2000 students and it's known to be one of the top rugby schools in New Zealand the high school that's had the second most amount of all blacks produced from the school so I was like right I'm going to go there and this is going to be a stepping stone to me right, I'm going to go there and this is going to be a stepping stone to me being an All Black. So I went there and I remember walking in to the school for the first time and walking down the hallway and all I saw was trophies, this incredible amount of rugby history. I was looking on the wall and that All Black went to the school, that All Black went to the school. Oh my God, Andrew Mertens, he's my childhood hero. He went to this school. I felt the sudden weight of

pressure and expectation. I've come to this school and now I'm going to play in the first 15 and we're expected to win and be one of the best teams in New Zealand. And having never experienced that type of pressure and expectation before, I struggled. And I had one of the worst years I've ever had. I didn't really enjoy my school. I had a real focus on rugby. The rugby wasn't going well. I wasn't playing that well for the team. The first 15 at Christchurch Boys High were one of our worst seasons in history. And it was just a really challenging moment for me. So I kind of sat back and I was like, well, why?

Why have I had such a bad year? I've lost the love of rugby. This is my passion. Ever since I was a five-year-old boy, I had this dream of being an All Black. And now I don't like rugby. It was actually quite a scary feeling as an 18-year-old. Your true love is taken away from you. So I finished my one year at Christchurch Boys High, finished high school and then I was trying to work out, well, what's next? What job do I get myself into? I did some labouring work as a builder. With your dad?

With my dad, yeah. So he was a builder. I worked for him for six months and that didn't end well because I wasn't a very good builder and he's been building for almost 50 years and I didn't really, really enjoy it. But with my rugby, there was a couple of senior rugby teams in Christchurch that wanted me to play senior rugby straight out of high school. And I was like, I can't. I need to find the reason that I love the game is for the enjoyment and I forgot the key part of rugby is enjoyment so I had that year there where I was far too serious thought it was a stepping stone started thinking about the future if I play here or be an all-black and a whole lot of outcome focused things were controlling my mind so out of school, I was like, I'm just going to play social rugby. I'm just going to go play with my friends, play some age-grade rugby,

non-competitive, and just try and find the love of the game again. And I had one of the best, most enjoyable, fun years that I've possibly had, just playing social rugby down at the club rooms, no pressure, no expectation, and I found the love for the sport again. And then things happened really quickly after that. So two years after that season, I was playing at a Rugby World Cup in 2003. So this is 2001. And it was all because of that learning that I had at Christchurch Boys High where I started taking things too seriously and forgot why I was playing you play for enjoyment

so that's been a key thing that I've learned ever from that year my last year of high school was never forget why you're playing their game you're doing it because you love it and you enjoy it and if you ever take it too seriously then it's a a real red flag that, you know, you're not going to be successful. You're not going to be able to deliver. So it was as hard as it was in 2000 and not being able to perform at the Christchurch Boys High. It gave me a huge learning and something that stuck with me and making sure that I put a real emphasis on, are you having fun? Are you enjoying it? Did you feel very isolated during that year did you feel separate from your teammates that something wasn't

quite gelling it wasn't until the end of the year that I kind of had to reassess why it didn't go to plan and I knew a couple of guys at the school one One of my best mates, Ben Jones, so he did exactly what I did. He left his high school. We're going, right, let's go to Christchurch Boys High together. So we went to the school together with these huge expectations. We were a couple of the top players from our little country regions, and we thought, right, we'll test ourselves in the big city of Christchurch. He went on to have a fantastic year, played for the New Zealand secondary schools team, had an amazing season.

You know, I struggled, the team struggled, but I still felt like part have the excitement of going to the school that I had at the start of the year to feeling very sort of empty and disappointed and asking why why did I not have this sense of energy and excitement and how did I lose the love of the you know the sport that I cared so much about it's interesting because it sounds like you did that on your own did you did you talk to anyone about it no's interesting because it sounds like you did that on your own. Did you? Did you talk to anyone about it? No, I didn't.

It's just something I stumbled upon and made a decision to myself that actually I'm just going to go play some social rugby. I'm just going to go have some fun. Stop forgetting about this dream of being an All Black. Stop forgetting about trying to play professionally and just going to have some fun. That's a lot of emotional maturity for a 17 and 18 year old to work that out. So now, is that still one of your red flags, albeit not with rugby necessarily,

but if you're feeling pressurized or that you're losing an enjoyment in something, do you know then because of this year, I need to go back to basics and rediscover that? A little bit, but I've actually learned a lot more about how to deal with pressure, embrace pressure, actually understand that it's actually a privilege to have pressure in your life. I love that line in your book. Pressure is a privilege. Some of the most successful people in this world live with pressure every day. So that should excite you.

Often people see it as a real weight on your shoulders, the expectation. Exactly how I felt in 2000 at Christchurch Boys High. I didn't enjoy being in that environment. Whereas as soon as you learn that the most successful people in this world live with pressure every day, so it's actually a privilege to have pressure in your life. So instead of it being a burden, you want to walk towards it and understand that if you can execute, deliver in the highest amounts of pressure, you're on the verge of excellence.

You're on the verge of doing things that haven't been done before. You're on the verge of achieving greatness. So it is, it's a real privilege to have that. Because if I only knew those tools back in 2000 it would have been a completely different year but I was young I was naive I didn't have the tools I grew up in the country where it was carefree it was fun it was free-flowing so that's why I struggled and and new enjoyment was a big part of it but now I have to make sure that I'm happy I'm making happy choices is really important doing things that that I care about, that excite me, stimulate me and make me happy.

But if there is pressure and amongst those things, I love it. I embrace it. I walk towards it almost even now that I've finished. I need pressure in my life or things that are going to challenge me or test me. For example, I've been retired for a year and I launched a new charity called the DC10 fund and partnered with UNICEF I was like how are we going to launch this like I need something to challenge me physically and mentally so I went and kicked conversions goals for 24 hours straight just over one a minute for 24 hours tested my

body and my mind and I didn't know if I was going to get injured it never been done before by anyone so that pressure of walking towards the unknown and accomplishing that the satisfaction that I had with achieving something like that where I was under the excruciating amounts of pressure it was all live streamed there was people donating money. There was people giving their time. There was a whole events team that put on this event for me. I didn't want to let anyone down.

So that was an example of me, now that I've finished playing, of setting up certain things in my life to try and put myself under pressure. That's where I feel like it's when I'm at my best. where I feel like it's when I'm at my best. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed.

Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis.

Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Before we get on to your second failure, is there a difference between pressure and stress? I think so, yes. Learning to deal and walk towards pressure is a lot around your mindset like you're wanting to control your mind to making sure that you're really focusing on the process and far too often you're focusing on outcomes or something that has happened in the past or something that you think might happen in the future and that's where stress comes involved is actually you're focusing on an outcome or something that's think might happen in the future and that's where stress comes involved is actually you're focusing on an outcome or something that's happened or could happen

whereas pressure navigates you to think about the process like what is the process that I need to do and it's a tool to help people that are dealing with stress because it's often that mind management of controlling your mind how can I control my mind when I'm under pressure or feeling stressed and if you have tools to help you focus on on the process nailing each task living in the moment then just achieving you know those little milestones and staying on task is a you know great way to help you be successful in those those moments you had some help from an

amazing man called Gilbert. Is he a sports psychologist? Is that how you would describe him? Yes. Okay. And perhaps we'll go on to him when discussing your second failure. But he taught you something very invaluable, didn't he? About writing down precisely the things that you have to do over the next 24 hours and that being your sole focus. have to do over the next 24 hours and that being your sole focus yeah so I'd let the team down and made a bad judgment call and went out drinking and put myself and what I wanted ahead of the team this is the taxi from Wales to London it was yeah it was quite a quite a journey it's some ridiculous so expensive 300 pounds oh actually not as bad as I thought this is back in 2005 okay you could buy a house for that. I know.

So the whole week, and I was trying to prepare for a test match, but my mind kept thinking about the people that I let down and the team, friends, family, the all-black environment, and I couldn't actually focus on the game and the training. So for the first time in my career i i knocked on the door of the psychologist and said i need help and back then early in my career if you went and saw the team psychologist everyone's kind of looking at you going mate are you all right what's wrong you're a bit of a wacko you know and that's what i love the most about today's game is actually if you're not seeing the psychologist your teammates go well

why not if you wanted to get the best out of yourself like talk to him he's here to help you whereas we were extortion rugby players we used to shy away and you just hide all your feelings and you just deal with it yourself so he taught me to help control my mind to stop it from drifting and and burning this unnecessary energy of thinking about things that I can't control I was really thinking about outcomes and things that I'd done in the past that he made me write every hour for 24 hours exactly what I needed to focus on and do okay you know breakfast at eight o'clock stretch session session at 8.30, team meeting at 9, training this time, swim recovery, stretch.

And every time my mind would drift, I'd find myself drifting and thinking about the outcome or the mistake that I'd made, I would go, okay, what am I supposed to be doing? Okay, I'm supposed to be doing this. So it helped me just bring me back to the now focus, the process. And I eventually found myself or found my mind drifting less, less often.

And now I've been able to control my mind and know when I was drifting off, okay, right, back on task, back on task. And it helped me just prepare and plan the best I possibly could for the test match that was ahead of me. And after 24 hours, we'd review what stages of the day did you find difficult, what went well. Right, let's do another 24 hours, another 24 hours. Got to game day and I'd had an incredible week of preparation

through his support and direction. Ended up playing against Wales that weekend, scored a record amount of points by an All Black against Wales, sort of made history. And that's when I learnt the power of controlling your mind. And it was the first time I'd spent any time with Gilbert and it became a part of my regular sort of weekly preparation is actually spending time with him.

I think that's such a powerful tool for listeners to have because there's so much talk about remaining in the present, but it can be quite a difficult thing to do. And yet here is a practical way that can remind you what you're meant to be focused on at any given hour. So thank you for sharing that. No problem. Your second failure is being the number one team in the world

and one of the best players in the world, leading into the Rugby World Cup 2007, only to fail in a major way. What was the failure? Oh, so 2007 was the Rugby World Cup played in France. Now I've talked about the inaugural Rugby World Cup back in 1987 that the All Blacks won. Now for the majority of the following Rugby World Cups, which happens once every four years, the All Blacks were the number one side in the world so they go into this tournament as favorites and they would consistently choke so

to speak or fail because they were the number one side in the world but then they wouldn't win a rugby world cup now 2007 it had been 20 years since 1987, and the All Blacks had never won a Rugby World Cup. Now, historically, what happens in a Rugby World Cup cycle is you get a new set of All Black coaches, and they've got a four-year period to build their team up to win a Rugby World Cup. If they're unsuccessful, they lose their job,

and a new set of coaches come in and got a four-year period. Yeah. So that cycle. It's like elections. That cycle went on for 20 years. Right. So here we are in 2007, been the number one side in the world for three years.

I got World Player of the Year in 2005, got nominated in 2006. I was at the peak of my powers and the team was going really well. We were beating teams by 40 or 50 points on regular occasions. This was our World Cup. We thought being the number one side in the world that we just would turn up and we'd win the Rugby World Cup. We got to the quarterfinal after beating all the teams in the pool stages by 40 or 50 points, some of them by 100 points. We were playing against France in the quarterfinal after beating all the teams in the pool stages by you know 40 or 50 points some of them by 100 points we were playing against France in the quarterfinal and we'd played France twice in the 12 months leading into this game and beat them quite comprehensively so they weren't a team

that that we feared even though that had some incredible history playing against the All Blacks in previous World Cups so the game started well for the All Blacks in previous World Cups. So the game started well for the All Blacks. We got ahead on the scoreboard and then the game just shifted and all the momentum went to France and they just grew an arm and a leg and they played like a team that we've never seen them play before. I remember the All Blacks were kind of looking at each other going, what should we do? remember the All Blacks were kind of looking at each other going, what should we do? And no one had an answer. And we realized that we'd spent so much time in the gym, so much time on the training field. We were amazing rugby players, amazing athletes, but we didn't want to be in this situation where a team's putting all this pressure on us. So we were like possum and

headlights, just like looking at each other with no answer. We didn't know what to do. So all of a sudden, the favourite team in the Rugby World Cup to win the Rugby World Cup lost the quarterfinal when we became the worst performing all-black side in the history of Rugby World Cups. And I always joke that if we don't win this World Cup because we're such hot favourites that we can't return to New Zealand. They'll disown us and the All Blacks, you know, our country goes into a minor state of depression if the All Blacks don't win a

Rugby World Cup. That's how much rugby means to New Zealanders. There's so much pressure and that's why we've been so successful for so long. But World Cups, we couldn't perform and we couldn't be successful. So we returned home and we're like, okay, the coaches will lose their job, we'll get in new coaches and we'll start a new four-year cycle. Now credit to the New Zealand Rugby Union. They did something that they'd never done before. They reappointed the coaching group and they said, your mission is to learn from this failure

which is your whole thing about this this podcast is something that they'd never done before is actually learned from those previous world cups why did they fail what can we learn from because they'd always get a new coaching group in and they wouldn't look at the failure they just focus on what they need to do to win and then they'd trip up at world cup time they spent the off season diving into why why is it that we lost why is it that we were the worst performing all-black side in the history of world cups and something that they realized in that moment and they called gilbert and oka was the team psychologist they called a forensic psychologist as well called Kerry Evans and so they realized that we're not mentally tough we

haven't actually spent any time working on our mental strength yes we're amazing athletes on the field and in the gym because that's where we spend all our time but why aren't we spending any time on our mental strength learning about about our mind, putting ourselves under pressure, embracing it. So it was such a huge learning. So we spent the next four years with the same coaching group really creating an environment that was full of high pressure. We actually learned a lot about our mind.

So we realized that moment in the quarterfinal against France when you put under pressure that our mind went into a state of what we called a redhead. So when your mind's in a state of red, you're not thinking clearly, you're going quiet, you're playing within yourself, your communication drops, your decision-making's slow, and you can do one of three things when you're in a red-headed state. You can freeze, you can fight, or you can flight.

So we all started to learn about what characteristic we'd go into when we were performing, when we were under pressure and we're in a state of red. Now, I was the decision-maker and the playmaker in the team in the number 10 jersey, and I knew straight away that when I was put under pressure, I'd go into a state of freeze. So I'd go quiet. My communication was poor.

I'd play within myself. I'd become slow. Or another guy's in the team would go, right, actually, I go into a state of fight. I start yelling at the referee. I start yelling at my teammates. I'm completely off task. I'm not thinking about the process I start yelling at my teammates. I'm completely off task. I'm not thinking about the process of what I need to do. I'm actually wanting to start to physically

fight the opposition as well. So their trait was fight. And other guys would go into a state of flight. They just want to get the hell out of there. They've got an injury. Oh, my hamstring's a bit tight. I just want to get out of there. I don't want to be in this situation. So we started to learn about what trait you go into when you're in a state of redhead. And you never go through a game of rugby or a training where you don't go into the red a little bit, but the key was to make sure that you recognise you've gone into one of those states and to get out of it as quickly as possible and go into a state of bluehead which is when you're really calm you're clear great communication really decisive with your decision making so you're wanting to be spending as much time as possible in the state of bluehead

so we started learning about the state that you'd go into but also your teammates so when I saw my mate Man nonu that i played next to going into a state of fight and yelling at the ref i knew that i needed to help get him back into a state of blue so hey ma who tackled you on that last defensive play and he was like oh he'd have to start to think and then answer the question and then because now he's focused on an action or something that happened and And they're like, okay, right, breathe. I need you for this next play. Can you run this play for me?

So all of a sudden I had him back on task and focused, and he's now back into a state of blue. For me, I might have missed a couple of kicks, really important ones. So I'm running around thinking, oh, I can't let the team down. I need to make it up to them actually I'm in a state of of red so I whack myself on my leg I write next task catch the ball pass so you're learning all these tools to help you and your teammates spend as much time in the state of blue as possible and we needed to have a training schedule and plan where we were put under extreme amounts of

pressure so the thursday training before the game we used to call it test match thursday where this sounds crazy but it was almost harder than the game itself so we were training at a level that was faster obviously not as long but high intensity. Sometimes they throw in a second ball. We'd get referees that were blatantly cheating, sending guys off, just to try and get us into a state of red to teach us how to get back into the blue. So we're constantly working on high-pressured environments at training to help us being able to perform and execute in the game.

And this is all off the learning from that quarterfinal against the France so we spent four years working on our mental strength and learning about our mind and controlling our mind and getting into the importance of you know having the tools to get back and spending as much time in the blue head the importance of breathing you, staying focused on the process. So fast forward four years, we've got a Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. So there's extreme amounts of pressure. The whole country has sort of been behind us,

but once again we're the number one side in the world. We haven't won a Rugby World Cup for 24 years. There's even more pressure playing at home because you're expected to win. And we make our way to the final of the Rugby World Cup and it's against France. And we'd beaten them in the pool stages by 30 points. But then in the final, they're a completely different team.

They're putting us under immense amounts of pressure. The scoreline is 8-7. We're ahead by one point and there's just this French onslaught. And I remember the players looking at each other and instead of being like they were four years earlier where there were possum and headlights, they were looking at each other going, yes, this is what we've been training for.

Shoulders were back, body language was up. They were really thinking clearly they were really calm they're really decisive just a completely different team to what we had four years ago so they embraced that challenge they wanted that they knew that in order to win a rugby world cup they needed to be able to perform and execute under the most extreme amounts of pressure and that's exactly what they were getting from the French so they actually they wanted to be able to perform and execute under the most extreme amounts of pressure. And that's exactly what they were getting from the French. So they actually, they wanted to be in that moment, whereas the players didn't want to be in that moment four years earlier.

We went on to win that game only just by one point. The majority of that success was back off the learnings of our failed 2007 result. back off the learnings of our failed 2007 result and I don't think the team would be as successful through 2011 we went on to win 2015 and number one team in the world for nine years straight and a lot of it was off the back of that learning that we got from 2007. I could actually never watch a rugby match again and just listen to you talk about rugby because that was so compelling and thrilling and fascinating. I wonder how much that redhead, bluehead learning has helped you in your personal life not playing rugby. Are you aware of going into a free state sometimes when you're not playing sport? is yeah i do because i've spent so much time on i

know when i'm like burning energy and just focusing on things that i can't control sometimes you go into the state with sort of doom and gloom or why did they do that why they do this and i can't control any of those outcomes and oh my god i'm in a i'm in an outcome state of mind and I can't control these things so why am I wasting so much energy let's actually focus and bring myself into the present and it's really important as well when you know you're around children and you know you can be focusing on work or things and actually hold on I need to be really present here with my family and with rugby I was in a state of freeze you know sometimes at home I go into a state of fight where I'm sort of yelling or arguing with the children or

whatever it is you're like hold on slap myself on my leg okay breathe remember to breathe just focus on the here and now not things you can't control and it has it's sort of really helped me outside of rugby as well to learn a lot about, you know, controlling your mind and managing it and those constant battles that you have with that little person inside your head and wanting to try and win those battles. You strike me as someone who is incredibly nice and humble and almost entirely without ego. Is that true? Have you had struggles with your ego? It's a big part of our New Zealand environment that we have as Kiwis. You know, we're very sort of down to earth, we're really relaxed.

But we put a huge emphasis on making sure you keep your feet on the ground and you never get ahead of yourself or think that you're better than you are. I've had situations in my life and the world has got a beautiful way of just bringing you back down to earth at times. Your final failure is a failure of your body at the most important time in your career. Tell us about that because it was the day that you got named captain, wasn't it? It was. It was a very hard setback for me. So, you know, when I first became an All Black in 2003, my dream became a reality.

That little five-year-old boy had suddenly lived his dream and I thought that I could die the next day and I'd be happy. Die a happy man. But I walked off that field and I was like, I don't want to be just another All Black.

I want to strive to be an All Black great. And one of those things, if you want to be an all-black great you need to evolve your game you need to play for the team for over 10 years you need to work harder than all your opponents and everyone coming for your jersey so here I am in a 2011 it's my third rugby world cup I was 29 years old and I was like, okay, right, this is our time. We've got some incredible learnings from 2007 and I've been part of that change in mindset and we've been the number one team in the world for a long period of time. I was in my prime because if you're playing

rugby in your 30s, everyone's looking at you going, okay, time to hang up the boots. You're old now. You're on that slippery slide to retirement, it's time to finish. So I was 29, I was in the peak of my playing career. I'd been vice-captain for three years behind the legendary Richie McCaw, our captain, but I'd never actually been able to captain the All Blacks because whenever he wouldn't play, I wouldn't play for whatever reason. But the last round-robin game of the Rugby World Cup and the pool stages were going extremely well for me. I had a fantastic game against the french only a week earlier and then i get a phone call the day before the last round robin game from the coaches to say richie's had to pull out can you captain the

all blacks and i'm like absolutely this is a dream straight on the phone to my father dad i'm captain in the all blacks a really proud moment for my family as well. Did he cry? He's a staunch boy. I couldn't tell over the phone, but I don't think he cried. I don't think he's ever shed a tear. Well, not in front of me anyway, but he was an extremely happy man hearing that news. I went straight to the press conference where I got to do my first press conference as a captain of the All Blacks. It was quite a proud moment.

Shoulders were back, speaking with real sort of happiness and pride. And then the day before the game, later on that day, you always have a captain's run, which means the captain decides what you do for that training. It's very low-key training, final touches before the game tomorrow. So all of a sudden I was running my first captain's run as captain. It was a great day and I always finish the captain's run by kicking goals and I've kicked millions of kicks in my career. Ever since I could walk, my father was teaching me how to kick. So it's just part of my DNA who I am so I finish the captain's run with a few shots at goal.

My last shot at goal was lining up the kick and I came in to kick the ball and as soon as my boot made impact with the ball I dropped to the ground and I was just in excruciating pain and effectively I injured my groin and I knew as I was lying on the ground squirming with pain that my World Cup dream was over. Now I thought there's going to be my last World Cup. I might go and play rugby overseas. I've played in New Zealand, achieved a lot. I've achieved everything apart from a World Cup, but that's why 2011 I'll achieve that goal and I can go play overseas after this World Cup. All of that was taken away. So I got rushed to the hospital, did the scans. There was a part of me that was taken away. So I got rushed to the hospital, did the scans.

There was a part of me that was just hoping that maybe it was a partial tear and with some injections and painkillers, I might be able to return in a few weeks. It was wishful thinking because then they asked if I wanted to see the results and I was too distraught and upset. I was like, I don't want to see. I don't want to see the damage. Actually, I don't want to know what the damage is. So I jumped in the car to go back to the hotel with the team doctor. And I was like, Deb, is my World Cup dream over? And she said, yes, yes, it is. I'm sorry. And I just burst into tears. I was straight to my hotel room. I was crying, was angry, was upset. And I'm a positive person and I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason. Yeah, me too.

But all of a sudden, this made no sense at all. Like, why me? Why such a serious injury? Why now in a World Cup in New Zealand? And I thought, no, this makes no sense to me at all. My teammates would come in. They couldn't really talk they didn't know what to say and it was a really sort of challenging difficult time for me

so after 24 hours of sulking I started to think about the injury and what's next then I went back to my first ever test match for the All Blacks and my purpose of being an All Black was to not be an All Black but to be an All Black great. So I was like well what does an All Black great do in a moment like this? Firstly you're going to rehab this injury better than anyone has rehabbed this injury before. I'm not going to go play overseas, I'm going to re-sign for another four years and give myself another chance at a rugby world cup and then I started to think about the team okay what's one of the biggest values of the All Blacks no individual is greater than the team so I can't spend the next two weeks sulking the team needs me

you know there are younger players in my position that are now having to play because I can't play so I need to be there and support them and it was so hard to kind of you know hold those feelings and to go out there and be you know this positive person and in front of the team to help grow these players we ended up losing the next number 10 through injury and then the third string number 10 came and he got injured so we went to our fourth string number 10 and he ended up kicking a goal in the final to help us win but through that disappointment and setback I soon sort of sat back in and realized that when you do have such serious disappointment that it's really important to grieve to actually shed your emotions and now

my wife knows that if I do have a setback or disappointment or an injury, just to leave me alone for 24 hours because I'm not a very nice person to be around. And I'm the first to admit that. But it's important that you get these emotions out and you deal with the sadness, the anger, the tears. But then there needs to be an off switch. Okay, so after an injury, I'd always give myself 24 hours. So just keep away from me for 24 hours and then I'd flick the switch and I'd reset my goals. And through this time of grieving and when you come out of it, there's three things that you can do. You can either park it, which means that's exactly what I did. So I'd park it, I'd go out, I'd help the team, I'd share my

knowledge with the nines and tens, help the team, and then I'd park it I'd go out I'd help the team I'd share my knowledge with the nines and tens help the team and then I'd pick it back up again in my hotel room deal with my emotions park it or you can completely just forget it and move on I always found that being quite dangerous because it can come and catch up with you later on in life that's why I feel like if I had such a serious injury and I just forgot it and was really positive right from the start I feel like in a couple of years it'll come back to bite me in the ass so using that time to grieve and the other option is dealing with it and that can take a little bit longer and if you've got time to deal with it and if that's the route that you take then it's a great way to help you sort of deal with that situation or that disappointment unfortunately

I couldn't deal with it because I had to put the team first so I needed to park it and just revisit it you know when I was around myself or with people that were close to me so it was a great learning for me to kind of help with the setback and help me become a lot more sort of resilient it's like okay well right I've reset new goals this is what Norblack Great does and through that motivation of dealing with my injury I rehabbed better than I've rehabbed ever before had this new motivation of focus of being in the team four years time at the 2015 Rugby World Cup you know really proud moment is 12 months later in 2012 I got named to be the world rugby player of the year so I got back to playing at a really high standard come 2015 yes we won the world cup in 2011 I was out on the field with

the team but there was a part of me didn't quite feel satisfied I want to be out there on the field playing in that final but I was injured so I couldn't so I was like man four years time this will be me not knowing whether I was going to make it or not I'm 33 years old at that stage and like I said if you're playing in your 30s everyone's kind of looking at you go right old man time to time to finish and and then I played one of the best games I've ever played in the 2015 Rugby World Cup final and I just felt a complete control it felt like all these disappointments, these setbacks, these learnings that I had from the failed Rugby World Cups, from the injury in 2011, they were all part of the story of me having

success and the team having success in 2015. I honestly felt invincible and that was the reason. That was the reason. I was about to say. That was the reason. And at the time, I feel like you know these things happen for a reason and that's the reason that I did have such a serious injury was to make this moment even more sort of unique and special and the beauty of sport is just because you've had those situations doesn't guarantee you the fairy tale finish you know there's an Australian rugby team that are doing everything to make sure you don't have the fairy tale finish but to get to the end of the game and to know that I played a pivotal part in helping the team make history so all of a sudden we became the first all-black side to

win a world cup outside of New Zealand the first team in history to win back-to-back world cups and there was actually six other all- Blacks that had played around 100 test matches all finishing after that game including myself I knew that that was my last game in the All Black jersey so to have such fulfillment and being able to achieve a goal and dream after all the setbacks that I had it just it was it really was a fairy tale finish I still pinch myself now to know that I finished my all-black career on on such a high I think there are so many valuable things to take from the way that you've explained that one is that even if a failure doesn't appear to have meaning at the time in the fullness of time we might be able to attach a meaning to it and it might not be to do with the failure

itself. It might be exactly as you say, from the data that we've acquired from it. But another thing that is crucially important is I'm often asked, you know, how do you bounce back from failure if you don't feel like you're in that mindset? And you're so right that you need to have a period of grieving, mourning the thing that you've lost that didn't turn out according to the plan that you had in your mind and that is not a sign of weakness that's a sign of strength and of processing giving yourself that time so thank you for sharing that honestly you have been a delight to interview I barely had to ask any questions and you're saying all of the things I profoundly believe and putting them into such brilliant words.

I suppose I would like to, I mean, I don't want to draw this to an end, but I'm aware that time is tight. But I wonder how you feel now, having retired. How do you feel about your body? My body is surprisingly good. I've had ruptured both Achilles, AC joints on both shoulders. I talked about actually my groin injury where my adductor came off the pubic bone. I've had knees, everything. Your body's a beautiful thing at being able to heal.

As long as I keep moving, it's okay. Your body often follows your mind. There were stages in my career in 2013 and 14 where I felt like my body was giving up. I was having injury after injury. I couldn't string more than two or three games. I said I was going to try and get a World Cup in 2015, but maybe it's time to retire. My body's telling me something. Through the support of my wife, I tell her, no, stick at it, stick at it.

I'd have days where I'm retiring. The next day was like no I'm gonna stick with the plan next day retire so they're real mind games but once I committed to it in my mind my body followed and it was you know such a powerful tool of your body will follow your mind so now that I've finished playing and don't have that same drive, I know the importance to me personally about exercise, fitness, focusing on your health that I know that I need to keep active. Final question. If there is someone listening to this and they are about to retire or they are grappling with whether to let go of something that has been a lifelong desire or ambition. And their little instinct voice is telling them,

yes, you do need to let go. And they're fearful of what comes next. What one piece of advice would you give them? I think you really need to trust your gut in those situations because your mind, you know, got these constant battles of, should I do this? Should I do that? Focusing on the outcome, what might happen if I do this.

And a lot of it comes down to your gut instincts. And I know you kind of hear a lot about that, but I knew that it was time to finish. I'd been avoiding retirement for a long time, but I just knew deep within myself that now, now is the time. Not two years earlier, not two years in the future, now's the time. And then once you make that commitment, understanding that it's going to be okay. Take your time, be patient, and don't rush into what's next because of that fear of I need to do something. You need to work out what you care about, what you're passionate about, what you're good at,

and focus on those things and put your heart and soul into it and you'll bounce back. But it is such a challenging time sort of trying to have those battles with your mind or should I shouldn't I but once you know you follow your instincts and commit to it and then just put in the work to make sure that what you do next is something that really fulfills you and makes you happy I said that was my final question I lied this is my final question are you teaching your children to play rugby or hockey oh they love football man man city fans oh my goodness are you conflicted about that no not at all like at their age like my oldest two I've got four boys two and four years old so they're young but my eight and ten year old they're at an age where you're just wanting to introduce sports I'm not wanting to push them to rugby my wife's not pushing them to hockey.

They are playing sport. We're pushing them towards sports because there's just so many incredible values of playing the discipline, of playing individual sports and the camaraderie and the teamness and the learnings and values you get from playing team sports.

So seriously, they play, at the moment, they're playing rugby in the morning, football in the afternoon, and then futsal late afternoon. And then during the week, they're playing tennis and hockey. And I just introduce them to lots of different sports at that age. And naturally, they'll gravitate towards the ones that they love the most. But we're definitely pushing sport on them.

But exactly what sport, it's up to them to decide. And we're just there to be the supportive parents. but the number one sport at the moment is definitely football okay you're not dressing them in matching all black jerseys just yet not at all oh dan carter rugby legend thank you so so much for coming on how to fail and thank you for writing this book the art of winning and being able to put into words so much of what I'm passionate about. So thank you very, very much for your work. Thank you for inviting me onto the podcast. I really enjoyed it. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe.

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