How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S17, Ep1 Rylan Clark on fame, heartbreak and the long journey to self-acceptance

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

We're back with a brand new season (17 but who's counting? I AM!) and to open the series, I truly could not have asked for a better guest.Rylan Clark is a familiar presence on TV and radio and one of the BBC's hosts for Eurovision 2023. But he started out as the X Factor 'joke' performer in 2012. So how did he manage the transition from national laughing stock to national treasure?We talk about the failures that made him: not fitting in at school, the end of his marriage, his struggles with body image and how he survived 'hitting rock bottom'. We also have a fascinating conversation about the nature of fame, and how he feels his 'real' self is separate from his public persona.I adored this chat because Rylan is super-smart and willing to go deep. But he's also hilarious and had me crying with laughter.I hope you enjoy the episode. And if you do, I'd love it if you could give How To Fail a nice little five-star rating wherever you get your podcasts!It's good to be back.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodRylan @rylan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest today is one of the most familiar faces on our TV screens, a man who at the relatively tender age of 34 is already routinely described as a national treasure. He rose to fame on the talent show The X Factor in 2012. Despite coming fifth, he went on to have one of the most successful showbiz careers, not as a singer, but as a presenter. He's fronted several TV shows, including Strictly Come Dancing, It Takes Two, This Morning and Ready Steady Cook. He has his own Radio 2 show every Saturday and will be one of the station's main hosts for the Eurovision Song Contest this year

held in Liverpool. It's a long way from the East London Council house he grew up in, raised by a single mother, Linda, with whom he now sometimes appears on Celebrity Gogglebox. He's also written two Sunday Times best-selling memoirs, the latest of which 10, movingly recounted a decade of professional achievement but personal breakdown after the end of his marriage in 2021. His openness and authenticity have charmed the British public to the extent that he is now one of those rare celebrities known by a single name. That name is, of course, Ryland. But he has never forgotten where he came from. His Instagram biography states simply, started off as the joke, still laughing. Ryland Clark, welcome to How to

Fail. I mean, that was like an obituary. I felt like I was at my own funeral, but what a lovely speech. You did, when you arrived, said you felt like you were dead because you just seemed so exhausted. I have literally been so exhausted. But I mean, when I know this opportunity came up, I was like, I can't really say no. I'm so grateful.

And if you need someone for a eulogy at your funeral, I'll be more than willing. You're hired. That's going in the contract. It's straight in the will. People think that they know you, that openness and that authenticity, which comes across so beautifully on screen. Do they really know you? I think so. I think people do know me, but probably don't know all of me. I think they know a part of me and that's Ryland. That's the part that everyone knows. And I've always been very the part that everyone knows and I've always been very up front

about who I am and I've never been frightened to hide who I am however sort of when it comes down to sort of the personal side of me I like to retain a bit of something like when I'm sat here talking to you there's cameras there's lights there's a little switch in me that sort of sits up a bit more the voice goes slightly higher whereas at home I sit back a bit more. The voice is a little bit lower. So, yeah, I think there's definitely two sides, but I think the public have got a good idea. Because we know you as Rylan, but that isn't your birth name.

Your birth name is Ross. Ross, yeah. And is it right that you picked out the name Rylan from a baby name book? Yeah, pretty much by accident. I was modelling back when I was about 16, 17, and the agency that I was with was like, Ross is a baby name book yeah pretty much by accident I was modeling back when I was about 16 17 and the agency that I was with was like Ross is a boring name we're going to call you Keelan oh no I'm not worried and I did this job which was like a I can't remember it's for this concierge company in Canary Wharf and I got paid something silly like 100 quid or it really wasn't a lot of money even back then to me and they paid me by check and it was a printed check to Mr K Clark and I was so embarrassed

that everyone had been calling me Keelan all day I didn't want to say that's not my name and I need another check so I never cashed a check and at the same time I was working at River Island at the time I went over into WH Smith for my lunch break opened this baby name book to R because I thought it's gonna have to be an R because same initial and I saw Ryland I went that sounds like Keelan shut the book went back to work it was that simple did you change the check because you could change the K into an R quite easily because it was printed okay oh fine this is what I'm saying so like if it was handwritten that would have been an easy yes yeah because it was printed remember like they used to print old checks it was handwritten, that would have been an easy do. Yes. Because it was printed. Remember when they used to print old checks?

It was literally like that. And I just thought, you bastards. Was it always part of your plan to be famous? Yeah, I think it was. I didn't know what for. Like I've been very upfront with the fact that I grew up in a sort of era where being famous was, to me, growing up in and around Essex, the two ways you get a Range Rover is reality TV or drug dealer.

And I thought, I'd rather take that route. So, yeah. Are you serious, though? I think so, yeah. Like, it was that thing. You know, I never, ever thought I'd own my own business or anything like that. As much as I went to a very academic school,

I didn't feel academic and I was always into arts and media and things like that and sort of the goal for me was to sort of get a platform and for me I always thought that was singing and then I did get a platform through singing and then like you said got a career elsewhere and how do you feel about fame now because yeah you're so immediately recognizable that I imagine that can be quite difficult if you just want a quiet day without coming up to you a hundred percent you know I'm six foot four I've got the biggest teeth in the country a beard like you can't miss me it's really strange sort of my relationship that I've got with fame now like I remember growing up that question everyone used to ask would you rather be rich or would

you rather be rich and famous and back then it was instantly rich and famous are you stupid we can't let everyone know who you are get invited to all these places sort of 11 years in I'm grateful for everything I've got but if I had had a button, I tell you what, if I had a forget button, there's an episode of Doctor Who where there's these buttons where you can either protest or forget. And you hit the forget button, you forget what's happened. If I could have a button, I love my job. And every time I come off of TV doing my job,

I could hit the forget button where everyone had no idea who I was. And I could go down the supermarket, do this, and then go back on TV and everyone remembers again. That button would be broken by now, the amount of times I've hit. Why is that? Why would you want people to forget who you were? I don't know. I think I didn't make the most of not being known, to be honest.

When I look back, I'm so grateful. And I don't want anyone listening to this thinking oh god he thinks he's like Madonna like an A-list by any means no but using Madonna as an example if you're walking down Oxford Street in London and Madonna's on one side of the road and I'm on the other you're more likely going to come up to me and ask for a photo because you think you know me and Rylan won't mind and that's sort of the public perception of me is oh he's a nice guy Ryland won't mind and you know what I am a nice guy and I don't mind because I remember the first six months of my career was a public vote ex-factor celebrity big brother without that I wouldn't be here now so when any time anyone does stop me which is

quite often I'll always stop I'll give everyone the time and I've also been around people that don't and it makes me feel physically sick because you for that one person going up to someone they've seen on tv or who's a singer or something like that and asking for a photo and that person saying no to that singer or whoever that happens every second it's that one person that might be the only time they ever get to meet you and that meant meant something to them. And I've seen it happen. And I've just promised myself really early on, never be that person. So is being Rylan a coping strategy for those sort of interactions? Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah.

Like, I can sit there and go, this is a Rylan thing. And yeah, I think it's just the way I deal with the madness of it all. You know, I could go walk around a supermarket and feel very normal and feel yeah absolutely fine like I've got a cap on people still recognize me but I get away with it then that later on that day I could be at an event or a job where I have to walk out into a crowd of thousands of people and they're all screaming and cheering for me I need that switch in my brain yeah to go this is Rylan and then the second I'm at home in a tracksuit looking like a goblin that's Ross I'm so interested by you just generally no question just a statement because I think that many people who would know you from your

x-factor audition which we'll get on to and your later career would assume that you're an extrovert. But I have a suspicion that you're an introvert. Ryland's an extrovert. Yes. Ross is actually a very introvert. Yeah, 100%. So for argument's sake, this is an extrovert thing. But my brother's a cab driver, has been for years, and he's now my full-time driver for work. So I bought a new London black cab, and I had it all tinted up so I can use all the bus lanes. Such a joke. Oh, that's genius.

You and Vince Phillip. Not just a not-half-pretty face, like when it's all dressed up. But, yeah, so that's what I've done. And the cab broke down the other day and went through, like, a bit of water. So we've got another cab, like a temporary cab. Same cab, but the other day and went through like a bit of water so we've got another cab like a temporary cab same cab but the windows ain't tinted and it's literally just driving through London without a tinted window every single time you stop at like oh it's Rylan oh mate look

and it's as lovely as it is I'm like I feel like I've got a crooked neck from sitting in this car because I keep my hand over my face by the window and it's crazy I remember when I got my first sort of big paycheck and I bought myself my first car and like I said at the beginning of this chat I always wanted a Range Rover like it's superficial but it's something I always wanted and I had it my age got the car and instead of it saying Range Rover the badge said Range Ryland because that's your Ryland thing to do and within two weeks the bibs, the this, people sat behind you

read Range Ryland and go oh my gosh, why am I and I had to get a D badge straight away because I just realised it was just too much like drawing attention to myself and stuff like that and I actually hate the attention which is weird because it was the one thing I craved back then.

Well, I wonder if what you craved and crave still is connection, which is different from attention. Definitely. And actually looking back, I think there was an attention that I craved that, I mean, we could go deep, but I don't think... Please do. I wouldn't sit there and say I was

lacking anything like in my childhood or anything like that but I wanted more I was one of those people I always wanted more and as stupid as this sounds my mindset growing up was I don't need this piece of paper to tell me I can be xyz I'm not going to be a surgeon I'm not going to be a lawyer that's not what I want to do but if I want to be an Olympic gymnast at whatever age I am if I train 12 hours a day every single day for the next 10 years I'll be an Olympic gymnast if I want to do that and I always feel like you've got the capability to do whatever you want but what I wanted was to be this person this sort of almost character yeah that people all know people recognize people hopefully like and entertain people however that was and just be in that sphere I suppose that's what I always wanted and I didn't I knew what would come with it until you experience what comes with

it as lovely as it always is nine times out of ten you then start to miss the not being known part of it I think yeah and that's not an ungrateful thing to say because I love my job and I've got so much from my job but I do miss that oh should we go for lunch all right yeah let's pop in here just popping in somewhere without a doubt people are going to come up to that which is lovely I tell you when it really hit me my mum was very very ill in hospital she's got Crohn's disease and a couple of years back she was very very ill to the point was like we don't know if this is going to be it and got a phone call really late at night it was about one o'clock in the morning I think you need

to get up here so I drove up there I got in the lift of the hospital and you can see with the greatest respect no one's in a hospital lift at one in the morning for great reasons are they and I looked horrendous disheveled been crying upset and the lift stopped on the floor and a lady got in lovely woman she went oh went, oh, it's you. Oh my God, please, can you do a video for my grandkid? And I'm literally going up to a wall where I don't know if my mum's still alive, to be honest, because I've not heard anything

in the last half hour on the way. And just part of me wanted to go, fuck off. Leave me alone. Like, are you stupid? I'm in a fucking hospital at one o'clock in the morning and you can tell I'm crying like but it's just an automatic thing of yeah yeah no worries and I find myself in a lift doing a video for someone's grandkids and it's almost like built into me now it's like a numb then I just felt numb and I got out of that lift and was like who am I what am I doing but actually I'm glad I'm like

and not shouting at someone in the lift at one o'clock in the morning but it costs energy every time you have to flip that switch doesn't it and sometimes it's due and you expect it sometimes it's unexpected but that's what I think people forget at a time like that this woman probably don't realise, I'm in a hospital at one o'clock in the morning. This man looks very upset. He's agitated. That doesn't go through their mind.

It's violent. The character from telly. Yeah. You know, it's like meeting a telly tubby. Yeah. It's always Poe. Much taller and thinner. Yeah, very much.

I'll take that. Yeah. But we're talking a lot about identity. And I speak to you as someone who also went through a divorce. Yeah. You get it. Yeah, I do get it. And that can really knock your sense of identity. Oh, it killed me.

Yeah. Yeah, my divorce pretty much nearly did kill me. Yeah, it was really, really difficult. Looking back on that now, it's so awful to sit there and say this, but I'm almost glad it nearly killed me. And I'm so thrilled I can say that two years on because I didn't think I'd be here two years on. And I won't go into too much detail, but it was extremely traumatic and not even me just being dramatic. Like it was very much trauma.

There was a lot of elements that came into play with the breakdown of my relationship and then how that played out for the months after which is why I got so ill like you said I was six foot four I went down to like nine stone which is grossly underweight for someone of my height and now to be able to sit here and go the fact that I got to the lowest of lows when someone says rock bottom I never really understood says rock bottom I never really understood what rock bottom was and I don't think anyone will until you've been there and when you know you've been rock bottom like to the point of no return nearly that's when you sit there and go now I can say I will never let anything or anyone get me to where I was in that state not even myself I would never let that happen to myself again and actually because of that trauma and because of that

tread down on me I think it's genuinely for want of a better term made me so much stronger because now I will sit here and things that wind me up, things that upset me, things don't work out with this one, don't work out with that one, I'm sitting there going, you're all right. You've got your health. You've got a little bit of money in the bank, you're cool. I'd like to sit here and think that the breakdown of my marriage has made me the person I am now.

And I'm really, really happy with the person I am now and I can sleep very well at night. And I'm grateful that you're still here. I am now and I'm really really happy with the person I am now and I can sleep very well at night and I'm grateful that you're still here and that you shared that thank you before we get on to your failures I want to ask you something about your physical appearance because you've made a number of comments already in this interview I don't even realize doing yourself down and I think that's my mechanism though I think that's that's always been me you know I was this little ginger kid from Stepney Green that I was never happy with how I looked and even now I think I've come to terms with the fact of I will always never be happy with the way I look which is a really really strange thing to say

because I'm all right with that actually it took me a long while to realize no that's all right that you know you're never going to be happy the way you look you know people will look at me and go he's had his teeth done and then there's certain pictures of me that if it's like a pap shot and taking in the funny light on a funny stage my teeth like look like they come around the corner before me then you meet me in real life nine times out of ten everyone always goes oh my god you're really tall and your teeth look really normal like I said that about you being tall but I didn't say about you no no but they go like but that's the thing like they're the two things that people say when they meet me they're oh my god you're well torn like god your teeth are lovely in real life

like they're really normal but you know everything's heightened in certain situations but I've started weirdly quite recently to sort of lessen my look so there's that sort of signature Ryland look the jet black hair the jet black beard the white teeth the tan the this and sort of over the past few months in my head I call it laziness but actually it's sort of purposeful laziness I'm sort of getting a little bit softer now because I'm getting more comfortable with the fact of I'm not ever going to achieve this image of perfect in my head yeah so let's just do what you do just don't do it as hard so do you recognize now because I can relate to this so much and I've just been on holiday and lucky enough to go on holiday. And when I'm in a bikini, I am so critical of myself.

I am that same person. I won't take my top off on a beach. Wow. And even throughout my marriage, I wouldn't take a top off on a beach if there was other people there. I know this sounds really, really strange, but like, I mean, I've not got a bad body. No, you've got an amazing body. But I just wouldn't do it. And I don't know why. It's like I mean I've not got a bad body no you've got an amazing body I just wouldn't do it and I don't know why it's like I've got this thing but I could sit here and say the same about you this is turning into a right loving by the way but I love it like you are gorgeous like you're

such a stunning woman so for me to hear you say I feel conscious in a bikini sounds crazy but I'm the biggest hypocrite yeah because if I sit here and say I won't take my top off on a beach I'm not going to accept you saying you sound crazy the single thing that has helped me a bit in this area which I want to share with you is knowing and clearly you're a very self-aware person so I now know that if I'm feeling stressed or tired or anxious and if I'm on holiday then all of that anxiety and stress is hopefully leaving my body but it's in the process of leaving it where I go to with my self-criticism is physical appearance so almost knowing that it's not a foul say it's a symptom yeah rather than actually I think it's defense as well I don't know why but I feel like if I criticize my body or criticize my look or I'm self-deprecating,

I feel like I've already put the armour up to stop anyone else doing it or even if they do do it, it's like I've already said it. Yes. It's almost like a ricochet of a bullet. Yes. I don't know why. Maybe that's just been built into me over the years. And that started happening very quickly when I got into the public eye. You know, when I was on X Factor, I put up with a lot of shit.

You had death threats. Yeah, it was really, really bad. security all right it was it was really really bad and at that point there was a point where it was like do I just stop because this ain't worth it but there was that voice in my head going this is what you've worked for this is worth it you know what you can get from this if you play this game right if you play this game right and that's why I carried on everyone talks about tough skin thick skin I mean it's not your skin that's got to be tough it's your head it's thick brain you need it sounds stupid but it is it's not thick skin you know people aren't throwing stones they're throwing insults and insults go into the head they don't go onto the the body and I think that's what I did I sort of developed this sort of side of my brain that

sits there and goes I'm ready for anything you've got to say go on take the piss out my teeth take the piss out of my singing voice take the piss out of me being a presenter take the piss out the way I talk take the piss out of the way I look I'm ready for it because anything you say I've already said it about myself and I'll continue to say it and I think it is that defense and I'd much rather live in a world where even just in my own head I can think that and I do genuinely believe what I say do I love the way I look no do I like my body no am I ever gonna get there no I've done the gym I've had the body and I'm like yeah this is great but I want more I know who I am I said at the beginning this chat. I always wanted more and I'll always

want more. And once I've got to that point in my head where I'm aware, it doesn't matter wherever you end up, you're always going to want more. Then I get that. So I'm never going to find that plateau. Peyton, it's happening. You're finally being recognized for being very online. We'll see you next time. pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news.

Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides, don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This

on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of or on Apple Podcasts. real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters, and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Let's get on to your first failure, which actually is so interesting that you talk about wanting more

because this is something that you haven't achieved your failure to represent the UK at Eurovision even though you're an official host I know true I mean this one is a bit of a fun one but yeah I mean growing up I always used to think god can you imagine performing at Eurovision and this is when people didn't find Eurovision cool by the way oh hello welcome you're all on the bandwagon now thank you yeah I feel like a Eurovision OG like what where were you when Gemma and I got nil point thank you but yeah I mean I've always thought I'd love to be on that stage but I've sort of got to live out that fantasy so I host the semi-finals me and Scott commentate that every year Scott Mills and um Scott's like my Eurovision husband so we've done that for

a fair few years now and we're lucky enough that we get to go to the eurovision and work there and meet everyone and my outfit choices sometimes are a little bit leery when i'm at eurovision because if you can't do it at eurovision when are you going to do it and the joke with me and scott is so say like last year we're in turin in italy people would be coming up to me going good luck and i'd be like oh thank you or people go you were so great and I'm like oh thank you so much I really enjoy it like and I just play along with people just think I'm an act they always think I'm a contestant even though the people that actually know me know I'm one of the hosts people just think I'm a contestant so I sort of live out my Eurovision fantasy every year because I just make

people believe I'm a contestant from like Azerbaijan or something. And I love it and I let them believe it. Scott finds it hilarious. Do you have a favourite Eurovision act of all time? And is it Love City Groove? That's a true. I have my favourite probably song for many a reason

is weirdly enough a woman who's back in the contest this year for Sweden, Loreen, which was Euphoria a woman who's back in the contest this year for Sweden Lorraine which was Euphoria back in 2012 it won the contest I'd say that that's my favorite song because it led me on to her album and her album Heal is my favorite album of all time and I'm lucky enough to know Lorraine quite well and she knows this but like that album basically was my divorce I couldn't listen to music I couldn't watch tv I couldn't do none of that for a long time and both of those things are my jobs that was worrying me but no that album I mean you if you ever get the chance to listen to it go and listen to it because just the words the production her

voice everything about that album to me just gets it. So I would say that's my favourite song because as much as I love that song it then moved me on to her other work. That's a much more profound answer than I was expecting. Yeah but you know Back to Field is great but no there's the thing is I'm a bit of a Eurovision geek so we've got some really favourite songs over the years. I'm sure you've been asked this a million times but a bit of a Eurovision geek, so we've got some really favourite songs over the years. I'm sure you've been asked this a million times, but why do you think Eurovision is so great and people love it so much? I love to say this because from being a fan on the outside

to being now a fan on the inside, Eurovision to me, especially being on the inside and having the luxury to be here, for that one week of the year, me and Scott were talking about this yesterday. And he said a really lovely term. He said, for that one week, there's no bad news. There's no bad news. And that's exactly how it feels. It is that bubble, whatever city you're in for that one week or two weeks, where all that matters is Eurovision.

Your biggest worry is who's going to qualify? Like, and they're not big deals when you think about it in the grand scheme of life. But imagine living in a world where that is the biggest deal and that's the world you live in. It's like one big family coming together from all over the world. And it really does feel like that

because working on it every year, you'll bump into people and be like, oh my God, look, there's Eve's from the Swiss delegation. How are you, mate? And you'll have a drink. But you only see them once a year. And it is that once-a-year family. And it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from,

what money you've got in the bank, what clothes are on your back, what colour your skin is, what sexuality you are. None of it matters. Everyone's there for the same reason. And everyone's on a level playing field. And that everyone's there for the same reason and everyone's on a level playing field you know and then that goes the same for the contestants we have contestants that are superstars superstars from their countries got millions of followers up against gene from ireland who's got one follower and never even sung publicly but but they're on a level

playing ground they all get treated the same and that's why I love it it's just sort of parody across the board at Eurovision and I love it why is there not 11 points I mean I just think people like the word do's yeah do's yeah and it's a quick get to 12 I think that's what it is I think that's what it is okay let's get on to your second failure which is your failure to fit in at school. And I imagine that there's a lot that ties into how we started this conversation. Yeah, I mean, I, weirdly enough, I mean, that's quite a vague statement. Because in primary school, don't get me wrong, I had a lovely time. I had a really, really great time at primary school. But I had these times where I didn't feel like I fit in.

And that was because I think I was trying to work out who I was and what these thoughts that maybe I was having meant. Because, you know, when you're nine, 10 years old back then, I don't know about 19 years now, but back then I didn't know what the word gay meant. I didn't know what that meant. But what I would be doing, I was quite stereotypical so in the playground the boys would be playing football and I'd be with the girls doing bewitched routines and s club seven by the church and performing for the dinner ladies like all of these things and as much as I wasn't made to feel like I didn't fit in I think that was a pressure I was putting on myself like why am I here why am I here and not on that side of the fence with the boys playing football and that sort of progressed I remember there was this one time it was this boy from school's birthday and sort of that that thing you invited the whole class

and we all went but he had friends from not our school and me and the girls are sort of outside doing this routine and whatever while these are and I remember his friends that didn't go to school were like taking the piss out of me which I can understand but I'd been in this sort of bubble of like well they all know what I'm like and then all of a sudden you're out in the what you feel is the big bad world with people from another school they're like eight do you know what I mean but it's just I remember that it's something that I banked and I thought maybe I shouldn't be doing this maybe I should be with the boys so it's sort of not a case of not fitting in and being ostracized and at the edge of the class more that internal feeling of why am I doing this what does this mean and you know you'd have the odd person say something to

you and you think what does that mean what does gaming what does this mean and then when I moved to secondary school again I was very lucky to go to a really good secondary school and I was a little bit targeted in the early years by some of the older boys and then it got to sort of the age of 14 15 and I was quite happy with who I was and knew who I was and was like fuck you and that's when I'll never forget someone come up to me and tried to take the piss out of me he was two years older we had all these mates with him taking the mick and I just went do you want a fucking blowjob or something because you're obsessed and his face just dropped and his mate sort of took the piss out of him

and then I was like okay and then he never said anything to me since and it was sort of just like owning who I was I wasn just like owning who I was. I wasn't ashamed of who I was. But yeah, I think taking that ownership meant a lot to me. There's a lot that I want to come back to on that. But I wonder what your thoughts are on the language around quote unquote coming out. Because I feel that that often implies there's something that you're coming out from that there's been this sort of darkness that you need to emerge from and it can be it can imply something

really negative but it sounds from what you're saying you always knew yourself you just didn't have the language to express it I totally understand what you're saying and I'm really grateful for you saying that because I mean coming out as the term don't offend me in the slightest like and I get why it's called coming out because it's like I'm telling the world who I am I'm hoping in 10-15 years time no one uses the words coming out because whether you're gay straight bi want to have sex with vegetable good luck to you like it shouldn't be an issue the weird thing is I always say this like when anyone comes out in the media that maybe has been working in the media for some time and has never spoke about their sexuality or whatever and then all of a sudden decides to for their own reasons great well done and they get a lot of

praise and people are like yay I remember having this conversation with a couple of other people in the industry that are also gay and it was sort of like a passing jokey comment but it was like oh we didn't get this fanfare like because we've always just been who we are I've never publicly come out I've just been on tv I married a man but I've never said guys the same I've got to tell you yes on x-factor something got to tell you I'm gay like I've never said guys the same thing I've got to tell you yes on x factor something got to tell you I'm gay like I've never done the coming out video I've just been myself and people either presumed or I've said something somewhere and you know that's that so for me I sit there and go if someone wants to tell the world their gender sexual preference well great I'm here to support

everyone if someone doesn't and they want to keep it hidden again it's great it's your personal life I don't care who you're sleeping with whatever but for me I came out to my mum but everyone else just knew did your mum know when you well that I mean it was quite a funny story because I got my friend's mum to tell her because I bottled it and I heard her on in the background on the phone going no Linda no and I run away because I thought my mum's gonna decide me and what my friend's mum actually said look he's got something to tell you and she went oh don't tell me he's got a girl pregnant so I mean I mean I don't know if she knew but I mean she wasn't deaf and blind but for some reason she thought I might have got a girl pregnant

but yeah I love your mum she's great on she's a nightmare but I love her okay and growing up she was a single mother you have an older brother who you mentioned yeah Jamie driver he's a he's quite a bit older yeah he's 14 years older than me so he was like a dad figure okay did you ever feel the lack of a dad and do you think that's part of your need for validation do you know what no genuinely hand on heart didn't the only times i ever felt odd about it was if when i was younger you'd have a supply teacher that don't know the kids obviously let's say you did something wrong or you did something good or they were asking you stand up in class and say something and if they just said a passing like what do your mum and dad do I was like well I haven't got dad

they're the only times where I'd be like oh it's weird but no like now a lot of the public know my mum is if they've seen her or listened to her on my radio show she's definitely strong enough to be a mum and a dad and my nan lived with us as well because my mum wasn't well a lot of the time so I sort of had two mums and then my brother as a father figure so where my brother was so much more older than me he was the one that would sort of buy me my first computer or things like that things you just don't forget as a kid so So I never felt the lack of a father figure because I almost had three parents. I mean, it's better than none, isn't it? Yes.

At that age. So there wasn't that need to prove yourself, to show yourself to your dad. Abso-fucking-lutely no. Okay. No. I've ticked that cod psychology box yeah like I really wish I mean look I'm sure if you pick through my brain and certain traits or this and you cross-reference

it with people that didn't grow up with a man in the house and all of the I'm sure we can sit there and find something that's like maybe that is because of a lack of a dad like I have always sat there in full nature and nurture when it comes down to my sexuality and you know growing up in a household with two females did that make me gay I don't know like but I always do think that but I genuinely think I could have grown up in a household with the craze and still like Willie so yeah you know like I genuinely believe that people are who they are I feel like nurture definitely plays its part in people's character and their characteristics and how they behave but I do genuinely feel that people were meant to be who they are I don't know that might just

be like a lovey-dovey thing to say no I totally agree with you and that idea of nurture being integral that mindset that you mentioned earlier of that idea that if you wanted something you'd had to put in the hours and you could achieve it okay that's pure nurture and that's clearly something that you inherited from your mum your gran your older brother absolutely you you want something you go and work for it and you go and get it and even now I'm in a very luxury, grateful position where I could be places and they'll go, you ain't got to pay for this. Or you can have this. Don't get me wrong. Sometimes you sit there and go, thanks.

That's lovely. I really appreciate it. But I'll never forget after X Factor. It was about six months after. And all I wanted to do, to me, I always wanted to lose the Tom Suitcase. Don't know why. It's the stereotype. Oh, you've made it.

And I remember going to the shop with my old term manager and walking in there and going, I want to buy that. And I'm like, yeah, no worries. We'll take you upstairs to the Louis Vuitton apartment. And I'm like, oh my God, that's amazing. And literally they were like, we've spoke to our press team. They're happy to give this to you. And I just broke down and was like no I want to

pay for it I want to pay for it let me buy this for myself like that sounds so ridiculous because if they want to send me one now I'll take it but you made the point now yeah yeah but literally like for my own validation yes that's when I knew I had done well yes to be able to have the money to buy that like and that's when I was like right I want to Yes. To be able to have the money to buy that. And that's when I was like, right, I want to do it. And I did. And to this day, I rinse it. It's fraying because I use it that much.

But every time I pick up that suitcase, even all these years on, I've been lucky enough to earn some money, build my own house. I've got a car, built my mum a house. But every time I pick that suitcase up, I'm like, you've done it right. Symbolic. Yeah. That time of not fitting in at school you've been I think very generous to the people who as you say kind of teased you because actually it was very serious bullying at one point at one point it was yeah at one point it was quite bad you fractured your skull yeah so that was the late primary school that was and it wasn't actually kids at school. There was this place near our school where everyone went.

It was like an adventure playground thing. Not like a playground, like a normal one. It was like a purpose-built, like rope swings. And you'd have staff there. Like it was one of those sort of children's places. And yeah, just one day, this group of kids, I was just on the swing, just grabbed me, threw me down on the floor and kicked me in the head and it fractured my skull and the next thing I know I'm in an ambulance

and I remember going past my house seeing my house through the window and was like well it's weird because I was young and I don't really remember that much but I remember those snippets and I remember being in the ambulance and seeing my house and being like that's my house and then I lay down and I'm like and then I'm crying because I'm scared I'm like what's going on like my parents isn't it like all of this like what's going on and yeah yeah it fractured my skull and yeah it just turned out these kids had seen me playing with the girls and didn't like it and that was it I didn't even know them but they were just other kids that went there so yeah so that was sort of the final straw for my mum actually that's when she went we're leaving we're moving don't want to be here no more and

that's when we moved that we were the last sort of ones of our family to move out to Essex we all come from East London and yeah that was the final straw for my mum. She just went, no, we're going. Do you think there's something about having Rylan and Ross that dates from that moment where it's safer psychologically for you to keep your truest of truest self protected? You couldn't be more right. That's exactly what I do. And yeah, it probably does come from events of my life when I went on x like I said earlier you have a decision to make

do you take this and hope to get something or do you stop and disappear and get nothing and that's when the brain split into two and I went went, right, this is a Rylan night. Go on, give it to me. Give it to me. And people could throw stuff at me. And I'll just bat it away and not take it too hard. I'll take it to the left side of my brain. And then, right, come then.

Let's go home now. Ross. Someone says something to me there. Crippling. And that, again, I think without going into too much detail, plays back to the end of my marriage. With why I got so ill, with what was being said to Ross and how Ross was being treated and how Ross was taking responsibility for this and Ross had to deal with this. And now because of that and because of the way I handle Ryland, there's a middle section of my brain now where Rossoss and rylan can come together like now yeah this is very much the two boys sounds great then but it is where i will speak to you as ross whilst being

rylan and give you rylan but also speak as ross like it sounds like i'm a split personality i'm very much not it's just the way my brain deals with it but from then the breakdown of my marriage that was when I was like you need to merge now because Ross can't take this battering Ross definitely can't take that I'm a walkover like I would give anyone anything have it not a problem and even if it puts me at my detriment I would give anyone the world but actually it's made me harder to sit there and go be a bit more Ryland no I'm going to get it I want this and I'm going to get it and now I have got that midsection where especially at work yeah especially at work now I'm making choices and making decisions

that Ross would never have made and Ryland also wouldn't have made but now they know each other yes they're talking and they're going does this make you happy do you want to do this yes well yeah but think about this overall and that's why i'm making the decisions i'm making there's so much i can relate to in what you're saying i'm so glad to hear about the middle part of your brain yeah i'm glad i've made it as well because it sounds like you're finally able to say no when you feel no yeah rather than trying to meet someone else's demands in my personal and my business yes. Yes. Because otherwise you open yourself up to so many toxic relationships, not just personal. Absolutely.

You couldn't be more spot on. You couldn't be more spot on. You know, there's situations I've been in before where I now, like you say, have that middle part of my brain, that's the two names combined, that sits there and go, what the fuck were you doing? Are you real? Why did you let that happen?

Why did you get spoken to like that why did you get treated like that why did you let this happen why did you let yourself get put through this in personal and in business like why did you do this and that's the voice that's in me now going forward okay is this right for me no and then that middle part voice is going don't do it don't do it it's not worth it this reminds me of I know what a red flag is now yeah I didn't you could have held up a red flag a white flag a green flag and a blue flag I wouldn't know what one was red literally in my face now I can see red from a mile off what kind of impact has that had on your friendships because sometimes when you start respecting your own boundaries, you lose friends. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say I lost friends because I lost a lot of friends a long time ago through personal reasons.

And that's quite gutting because at the time I couldn't see that happening to me. When you say that, sorry, is that when you became famous or it was a different thing? Yes, but sort of more years on, my friendship circle changed to sort of another person's friendship circle, if you like, and that become my circle. Yes. And as lovely as that was, I didn't realise that that wasn't my circle. I was just part of that circle

and then all of a sudden that circle's not there and you're like oh my man and so many things come into play in your head it's like oh my god like my whole life is this my whole life is skewed down this walkway rather than these walkways like and you sort of learn but actually what you realize is that the friends that maybe you weren't as close to that were friends still there yeah and then you grab and dig your nails in as hard as you can and hold on to them and for me we're talking one hand like we are talking one hand I don't need any more than one hand and I don't want any more than one I've got a load of mates loads of mates I'm everyone's friend but real real friends close very close the ones who always knew you even before you knew yourself yeah absolutely

and the ones that could see everything from the outside but were too worried to say anything to you yeah but now we'll say look we know and you go okay great i know i'm not going mad your final failure there's no easy seamless link here is your failure to live down the x factor judge's house video every year you watch it every year don't you you make a point of re-watching it. Yeah, normally every August. Why August? So that was when it physically was in real life in Dubai when we filmed Judge's Houses.

And the reason I make myself watch it every... I mean, everyone always brings it up to me. I'll go on a show and I'll probably play the clip for a laugh. But for me, I watch it once a year, every single year, on my own, maybe a glass of wine and I go right it's that time of the year it's like Christmas and I'll press play and I'll watch it all play out and then at the end of it I'll press the button shut the laptop carry on with my night everyone else goes why'd you do that and I go because when I first got here and saw you today

I went I'm so knackered I've literally I've been to Glasgow I've been to when I first got here and saw you today, I went, I'm so knackered. I've literally, I've been to Glasgow, I've been to Liverpool. I've like slept for two hours. And then I'm up this morning, everyone's bringing me and I've got to sort this out. And it gets hard. And you think, God, I've got, you know, give me a day off. But the reason I watch that is because I sit there and go, stop fucking moaning.

Because look what it meant to you to know this is all about to happen potentially for anyone who hasn't seen that video how would you describe what happens in it okay so from a public perception i get told i'm going through to the live shows of x factor by nicole scherzinger of pussycat dolls fame i then break down in tears for what seems like an eternity i'm basically crying into a crotch i wiped my face on a on a beautiful cushion no probably not all the loss and this goes on and it looks like the most biggest overreaction in the world which it was in real life i was up drinking till seven in the morning with lovely car Flack in the swimming pool I slept for an hour woke up was told it's time for the results put a full face of makeup on it was

50 degrees that slid off I had the worst hangover and when I saw Caroline on the way in to get the result I sort of looked at her and went I forgot through and she sort of shook her head and went no and I was like great at least I know play it up and be like oh I've had a lovely time thank you very much for the opportunity and then I was told that I was going through it was like someone hit me around the face with a baseball bat and then I just completely lost it the hangover the vodka tears getting through thinking my life's about to change 50 degrees the headache everything just hit me in one I don't know I weren't sick on it and when you look at that video now every August yeah what do you think of that young Ryland I would wish I could go back and say to him stop crying for a start you're here and enjoy it all but this next couple of weeks before that goes

out on tv because that was the moment that was the sort of overnight you're in like I can look back at the night I got famous if you like this next couple of weeks where no one knows go out get fucked do what you want with anyone take everything spend the money go to this place roll around Leicester Square on the floor at four in the morning do all of these things because in a couple of weeks they're gonna be on you they're to be on you that's what I tell you so you had no idea no you knew your role was big yeah I thought it was big and I knew people are going to be interested in us but you know this might not change at best I thought I'm going to get six months out of this where I'll do gigs,

perform in some clubs, blah, blah, blah, blah, and probably about 10, 20 grand. That'll buy me a new car, pay my credit cards off, and then you're all right. Then you can go and get a job somewhere. That's what I thought. That is what I thought. But in me, the Ryland side of my brain was going,

no, if you play this game right, you could be on How to Fail with elizabeth dane oh stop that's so such a good end to that sentence um this is so interesting because i'm obsessed with reality television because you are really a man that reality tv shaped yeah you grew up watching it and then you're a product of it. Yeah. And I really want to talk to you about the experience of filming X Factor. Yeah. And just what that was like. Horrendous. Was it?

Yeah, genuinely, it was hard. Like, now I could sit there and go, oh. Like, there was a few things where I'd sit there and go, well, that shouldn't have really happened, as in getting us in places at times or being left alone in places at times. Now I would not put up with certain things. And that's not to sit there and say, because I know there's all this talk about X Factor back in the day and stuff like that. I'm not talking about all of that.

I'm just saying from someone who now works in the industry, if that was my show and I was organizing timings and stuff like this, I was organising timings and stuff like this, I wouldn't have got contestants on a Sunday morning to be there at 8 o'clock in the morning when they're not on TV until 7pm that night when they've had no sleep. Like, I wouldn't be doing that. And there's no fucking way I would do that now as a contestant. It's weird because I remember I went to do

the Celebrity Apprentice a couple of years back for Comic Relief. And even then, I almost was getting like PTSD from X Factor, which was really weird because I'd go, guys, I'm just going to go to the toilet. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, not yet. You can't go to the toilet yet because we've got to film this. I've not been told for the last seven years you can't go for a piss.

Yes. And then I thought, have I changed? As in like, you don't tell me when I go to the toilet. And then I thought, yeah, I have actually. And I'm going to piss. No. so it was like little things like that so oh you know you can't go to the toilet yet because we've got to film this then you'd be sat there for an hour because something's being rehearsed but you did it because you're not in a position not to and you're grateful and you're also constantly being told to be grateful absolutely but I genuinely am grateful yes I genuinely am grateful like everyone always says x factor and celebrity big brother you know they're the two shows that made you

and I would always sit there and go x factor gave me that platform and I can never ever be more grateful for that celebrity big brother being in there and winning it was the platform that showed people who I was yeah so the two of them together worked it's also a crash course in having to deal with the opinions of people yeah who don't know you I mean there's a lot of opinions even people that were very very very very ended up being very very close to me in my personal life hated me on x like that hated me slated me that I found out but but like you're like that's mind-blowing yeah and then that had been and then you sit there now and go why was that person even in my life then but yeah like particularly for you as

well because we talked so much about this split identity in the middle like being slated for one part of you by someone close to you. I can't even imagine. It's really weird. It's really, really weird. Like, look, for me personally, my biggest issue that I've got now in my life, which isn't a massive issue.

I know in the times that we're living in, there's bigger issues. But the biggest issue for me is now, I've been single for two years. And of course, I'd love to meet someone. You know, I want the dream of the husband, the kids potentially one day. I'd love to meet someone. You know, I want the dream of the husband, the kids potentially one day. I'd love to have children.

But for me, dating is the worst thing in the world because from experience, you can date someone for a long time who you really, really like. And then it gets to the point where they're like, this is too much. I don't like Rylan. Or not that they don't like rylan they just don't like

what comes with rylan or you get go on a date with someone for a long time you really really like and you realize they're not interested in ross but they're obsessed with rylan yes and want what rylan's got and it's like where's the one in the middle like the middle part of my brain i need to find that middle man if that makes. I think you need someone older. Fine. Potentially of a different nationality. I have said for so long, I need an Italian, Swedish, Spanish, I don't care who it is. Just somebody who hasn't got clit. I want to meet someone the old-fashioned way. Yeah.

Where it's like, oh, nice to meet you. I've lied. I went to Barcelona last year on my own. And for an entire night, this group of people thought my name was Josh and I was a lawyer and it was fucking great it was amazing until right at the end of the night someone come up and went oh my god Rylan grab a photo and they're like what is this I don't know I was like I don't know top of like blew my cover because I think you also need to be with someone who isn't threatened by you who already knows themselves as professionally successful in a

different way there is nothing threatening and that is such a big thing for me now I don't care whether you earn one pound a year or a million pound a year I don't care whether you are run the most successful company in the world or you literally are signing on I don't care right I'm all about the person if you can make me laugh you're decent I don't care what they look like hand on heart genuinely my type gone my type don't work for me clearly I want just someone nice right for me I just try to explain to people like there is nothing to be intimidated of about my job the only difference is is that people know what I do for a job and sometimes they want to come say hello. That's it. That is literally it.

But some people either see too much into that and want it or see it as something they don't want to be a part of. What does your mum think of everything that's happened to you? Oh, I mean, that's another book. What did she think when she was watching X Factor? It was hard for her, obviously, listening to people slag off her son and her going, but that's not my son. Like, this is part of this thing. You know, he's not this person that they're portraying him out to be.

And I wasn't. And people then saw that in Celebrity Big Brother. But I think for me, personally, that was the hardest decisions and points was during early X Factor when I knew what my mum was hearing and having to go through those were the only times i had wobbles where i was like maybe i should stop maybe i should stop but i'm glad i didn't and she is as well she got fucking out because when i look back when i was doing research for this interview i was like gary was so mean to you and i know that you're you've got a truce now and your friends again I'm fine with Gary but you know I'm genuinely rude so the weirdest thing was with Gary you know week one when I was in the bottom two of those live shows I mean I felt like he hated me he walked off

when I got saved and I hated him so I was like you bastard can't be just walked off you made me look like a prick but actually as the weeks the weeks went on, I thought I'd play him at his own game. I will never forget, it was the week I left X Factor, week eight it was. A security guard came up to me and went, Gary wants to see you. And I went, well, Gary can wait, because I'm having a drink.

And he just laughed. But everyone knew, I knew everyone at this point. Anyway, so after I'd had a drink or whatever, I then went to his dressing room, and he shook my hand. He went, you all right yeah I'm all right you've been great that's why I gave him a hug sort of when I was performing my last song I went thanks for everything he went no thank you for everything and then I went we had a laugh then we went yeah and that was at the moment when I was like we don't need to be best friends but we were both making a tv show

at the end of the day and then yeah lo and behold a few years later I was hosting an awards and I bumped into him again and he was just like god you've done well now he's like I think you're gonna do this well and it was just really really nice to see him and he actually said to me he was like I was trying to um work out the date you were getting married because I was gonna it was when he was turning up at people's weddings like not telling her he was gonna turn up and sing I went oh gee I wouldn't have done that me brother weren't a fan at the time I had to stop my brother from like attacking him one week at X Factor but no I've got no problem with Gary Barlow he's actually a really really lovely man actually looking back he played quite an integral part, I think, of me staying all them weeks.

Rylan, Ross, I've loved every second of this conversation. Thank you so much for having me. I suppose it's been a total delight. I could go on for hours. Before we go, because we've been talking a lot about kind of self-knowledge and who we are and how we find ourselves. How today would you describe yourself to someone who doesn't know you? How would you describe who you are? I would say I am a 34-year-old man who's got a great job,

looks after himself and everyone around him and has been through some shit, but is very content with who he is, is very happy with who he is and is looking to share it all again. That's what I'd say. Ryan and Clark, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail.

Thank you, babe. If you enjoyed this episode of How To Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.