How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S17, Ep10 Elliot Page on the transcendence of showing up as himself

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

This is one of those encounters that felt profoundly special because, no matter how much preparation I might have done, I truly don't think anything could have fully prepared me for the powerful honesty of Elliot Page.In his only UK podcast interview to mark the publication of his bestselling memoir, Pageboy, Elliot joins me in our season finale to talk about his self-perceived failure at living a 'closeted' life, his failures in friendship and his inabilty to reach out for help when he needed it. He talks about the abusive homophobia in Hollywood, his battles to connect with the truth of his truest self and the euphoria he now feels when he is able to present physically as he really is.Elliot moved me so deeply and I know anyone who listens to this will be meaningfully changed by it.--You can order Elliot's memoir, Pageboy, here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodElliot Page @elliotpage Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Elliot Page is a critically acclaimed actor whose starring role as a pregnant teenager in 2007's Juno led to an Oscar nomination, two BAFTAs and a Golden Globe at the age of just 20. He later went on to act in a series of movies and TV shows including Christopher Nolan's Inception, the X-Men franchise and the Netflix superhero series The Umbrella Academy. But although many of you might know him primarily as an actor, Page's recently published memoir proves that he is also a profoundly talented writer. Page Boy, which is already a New York Times number one bestseller, tells the story of his journey to selfhood. In it, he lyrically depicts the struggle to exist

in a society determined to ignore, marginalizeise and control his queerness. It is a love story of sorts, set against the backdrop of a sexist, homophobic Hollywood, in which the greatest love turns out to be Page's alignment with his truest self. He publicly came out as trans in December 2020 and later appeared on the cover of Time magazine. Page Boy has been called brutally honest, eloquent and enthralling and a book about what it means to be human. To read it, I believe, is to understand the fundamental power of being seen as we truly are. In the introductory author's note, Page writes, I've spent much of my life chipping away toward the truth

while terrified to cause a collapse. Elliot Page, it's my honor to welcome you to How to Fail. Thank you so much for having me and for your kind words. Thank you so much for this extraordinary book. You really are a phenomenal writer. And it's always such a joy to discover someone who is talented in one area also has this whole other talent. And I know that you've been an inveterate reader for many years and a recommender of books. But why did you decide to write your own right now? What was the initial spark?

did you decide to write your own right now? What was the initial spark? Gosh, I mean, there was, I think a couple of things that led to the initial spark. One was that it felt possible for the first time. And when I say that, I mean that I had the actual space in my brain and the ability to focus and feel comfortable and present enough for something like that to be possible. Whereas before, it didn't feel like it could be a reality. And I feel that's, you know, of course, aligned in a time where there's so many attacks towards trans people, anti-trans rhetoric, constant dehumanization, lies about our lives and who we are about our health care and it felt you know like I should grasp the opportunity as as someone who's has this platform to share my story and to reclaim my own narrative versus it being told by others or things projected upon me and

and hopefully maybe it could allow people to feel comforted or less alone, seen, and potentially those who aren't necessarily familiar with trans issues who might not know or be close to trans people and think they don't know trans people. Maybe it could highlight that we're just humans trying to, you know, all we want to do is exist and thrive, you know. You write this thing, and I want to get the quote exactly right. As a trans person and a public one, the sensation is that I'm always pleading with people to believe me.

I thought that that was so powerful. And I wonder what the weight of that feels like. Because not only do you feel the weight of being an activist I imagine but you also feel the weight of having to prove your very existence how heavily does that weigh on you that certain weight I feel less and less as time goes on you know the more embodied I feel I feel like that has continues to get better you know certain anxieties that continues to get better. Certain anxieties continue to get better because I'm still quite early in my transition. And obviously, especially when I first started writing the book, certain aspects of what other people think I've noticed, thankfully, doesn't

seem to affect me as much. But of course, that does seem to be a perpetual thing, you know, constantly doubted or gaslit as lots of trans and queer people can relate to, of course. Yes, we just deal a lot with people doubting us and our lives and telling us we're not who we really are. And of course, that can be frustrating or tiring. But I noticed so many things just continue to get better. I'm so glad to hear it. You strike me as someone who has for a very long time been guided by a quest for truth. You're a truth teller and a truth seeker, if I've understood you correctly. And it's why I loved that quote that I used in the introduction about chipping away toward this truth. I wonder how you feel about truth it's such a huge question but how important is the truth to

you gosh I guess in three words or less yeah okay gosh I suppose for me it would be arguably one of the most important things to strive for as we're alive already. What even is this? And by this, I mean, life and existence. So ideally, I'd want to do everything I can to lean into truth and coming into my own authentic self. And I wish that for everyone, of course. I wish that for everyone, of course. I want to talk to you a bit about Page Boy and the way that you structure it, because it isn't a chronological structuring. It is fragmentary and lyrical. And I wondered two things. One, why you decided to write it that way. And two, how difficult it was.

Yeah, I mean, I knew right away when I started that I wanted the book to be a nonlinear structure. I think, one, I enjoy that in general with books. And for me, trans and queer narratives and becoming are nonlinear, you know, and I and pulling back. And especially with trans narratives, we talk about this sort of before and after all the time. And I don't see it that way. I think so for me, it's so much about becoming integrated. And I hope people sort of feel that this non-linear aim at integration, you know. Was it difficult? No, it wasn't really. Oddly, the first time something did truly click and I sat down to write was the first chapter in the book, Paula, it's called. And it's very close to what I wrote that very first day. And I think at first, especially after getting the book deal, I was like, oh, God, now I have to write a whole book.

You know, so I was at the beginning, it was what came up and I'd write, write, write, and then try and branch off of one story and create form around that then as I progressed I started like oh I'm going to choose this period and this friendship this relationship this incident and build around that and then later in the process really worked on sort of moving around the puzzle pieces in regards to laying out all the chapters. As you say so eloquently there, there is no before and after to your experience. And the rest of society sometimes I imagine seems fixated on the notion that there is. And this is coming up for me, and I don't know whether it's helpful to offer, but I'll offer it anyway. One of my favorite sculptors is a woman called Barbara Hepworth and she always said that the art to

her sculpture was chipping away to reveal the essential truth of the material that she was working with rather than trying to make it into something else and I was just really reminded of that when reading Page Boy because you have known and there's this bit where you write where you used to try and pee standing up when you were four is that right yeah yeah so you know who you are but it's about having been able to make yourself visible the essential truth of yourself to everyone else there's no question there I'm just yeah no but you're like and even though I did know, I have known, writing the book was healing and validating in so many ways because my earliest memories, preschool, basically all revolve around gender. me. And that just persisted and persisted. And growing up, especially where and when I did, there was no examples. There was no language for this. And one of the questions that did come up as I was writing it was, why did this have to take so long? You know, there's a bit of a grief

to that. But I mean, obviously, we know why. It's society, it's expectations that we all deal with, right? Trans, cis, straight, queer, what have you. We're all dealing with toxic expectations that we all deal with right trans straight queer what have you we're all dealing with toxic expectations that force us into a tiny little box you know but yeah one of the other things that I learned in page boy was about the Halifax explosion of 1916 which I found riveting and I'd never heard about 17 but that's sorry no no no I just wouldn't want someone listening to me like I'm so sorry yeah no don't be sorry um will you tell us about that because that's where you grew up isn't it I'm very interested in psychogeography and how where we grow up sort of informs how we see the world tell us about it yeah oh my gosh how much time do we have like there's so many details I you know almost don't want to get me started on it. But quickly, essentially in December of 1917 in Halifax in the harbor,

very, very large harbor, a ship called the Mont Blanc, which was carrying something like 19 times the weight of the Statue of Liberty of like explosives, like this enormous, enormous amount. I think some of the highest recorded ever on a ship into the Halifax Harbor. And as a ship was delayed and leaving and a rather disgruntled captain was trying to speed out, essentially this game of chicken began.

And as last minute, the Mont Blanc tried to turn, they collided and it burned for about 15, 20 minutes and then it exploded. And it was the largest man-made eruption explosion previous to the atomic bomb. And it decimated the city. It was a horrific, horrific, tragic event. There's much more to the story. I encourage people to learn more about it. And I happened to grow up

in the area of the city that was particularly flattened. I think it was around 2000 people died and it really raised the city to the ground. What do you think that experience was like for you growing up in the neighborhood that was built? Is it Hydra? What's it called? The Hydra Stones. Yes. Do you think that that affected you and how you saw the world? It must have on some level, I suppose, that degree of sudden tragedy. It was just interesting how growing up you were, and he just taught it was an accident, which isn't really the full truth. It was a horrible consequence of war at the end of the day. It was World War I that this munitions ship was going to be going over with a convoy to Europe and led to, yes, immense destruction overnight. I think half of the city became homeless, obviously.

So many children left without parents. Yeah, a truly horrific event. yeah a truly horrific event I appreciate it's a sort of weird question but I suppose it's because there's this seam running through your work in page boy which is about buried secrets things left unsaid hidden truths and I found it very affecting when you taught me about the Halifax explosion so thank you for that as well less heavy question your dog Mo, how important was he during the writing process? He gave fantastic notes. I mean, it was just so lovely to have this companion, obviously. I mean, one of the things I liked about the experience was that I was alone. And maybe, I mean mean I love the collaborative nature of making film of making television but there was something really enjoyable about sitting by myself in my apartment or up in Nova

Scotia in a cabin and it was lovely to have Mo as a companion as break let's go for a walk you know it was yeah. How do you feel when people call you brave I feel uncomfortable with it yeah yeah I feel just because I'm just existing as myself and also the degree of privilege and resources I have to access well all kinds of things but you know particularly the health care that's allowed me to have this life and be myself when I think of the realities for the majority of trans people, just people that are far more brave than me. Before we get onto your failures, one final question. You are someone who through your work has visual records of what your life was like when you were growing up.

Do you ever rewatch your old films or how do you feel about Juno now? something like Juno, I don't think it would bother me to watch. I loved playing that character. I loved who she was. I loved that something about her did feel fresh and new and how she presented. And it was one of the best filmmaking experiences I've had. It's more the aftermath of that. I could definitely watch Juno. I don't want to see anything from the time of promoting it and leading up to the Oscars and that whole campaign season and what have you. I'd rather not see anything from that period. Because people put you under pressure to dress a certain way and present a certain way. Yeah. And to hide who I was, disguise who I was. And I was very closeted and very in love. And my girlfriend wasn't coming to events with me.

Like, this is straight people, you know. I loved Juno. And actually, so many people I've spoken to about interviewing you today have said how formative it was for them. And I think you did a terrific job. So I'm glad that you feel fondly towards it still. Let's get onto your first failure. So your first failure is, in your words, that you failed by being closeted, disguising myself and hiding my partners. Can I ask before we dig into it, how do you feel about the language of quote unquote closeting? Because I want to be sensitive and respectful.

And there's a sense that when we talk about coming out or being in the closet, that there's something to feel shameful about. And I don't want you to feel that I'm thinking that. Oh, I really appreciate you saying that. That's okay. I mean, that's, those are the terms I personally use. And so, yeah. Okay. Why did you choose this as your first failure? I mean, I think that was a time in my life where I, of course, significantly struggled and existing

in that way was extremely detrimental, you know, to my mental health and to my physical health, was extremely detrimental to my mental health and to my physical health, quite frankly. It was just, it was like eroding me. And it really set me on this path that was hard to come back from. And as much as I was being pressured or in many ways, it felt choiceless. I wasn't ready to come out for a while. I just wasn't. But I was an adult who was making the decision to do that, to go along with it. And I regret that, you know, and not just for myself and how I felt, but for lying by omission, for not using my privilege and platform to be a visible person, to be present for the community, to be vocal for the community and working with and along a toxic system, essentially. Are you talking specifically here about the years when you were in public prominence? So the fame fame years if you want to put it that yeah because it must be so excruciating

to be living your life so seemingly publicly and to know that internally it absolutely doesn't reflect the core truth of who you are it must just be so debilitating it It was, yes. And also to my relationships and hurtful to my partners and hurtful to the love that should have been able to flourish. I barely even if ever held a partner's hand outside until I was like 27 years old or went on a properly out date. Yeah, I got to a point in periods of my life when I say I could barely function. I do mean that. I really mean that. I was not OK. I was not OK. Can you tell us about some of the moments, some of the interactions you had in Hollywood and beyond, where you were made to feel that you couldn't live your truth?

People could be pretty direct about it and always in the suggestion that it's for protection, right? We want you to have the best career you can have and keep your private life private. Meanwhile, heterosexual couples are walking down the red carpet and that seems to be fine you know they're not keeping that private but okay even aside from people that I worked with who were encouraging me to be closeted encouraging me to present a certain way remember the first time I was just working up the courage to tell like a fellow actor I'd be working with something like oh my girlfriend's coming to visit even now I'm like sensing that like flashing back to like what those moments were like and that I would have been about 25 I think or just under 25 and I said it to an actor

I was working with and he just went don't tell people that just keep that to yourself just just keep that to yourself now I'd be like excuse me you know like but you know you just take that all in it's another layer upon all the other layers that of course began when you were a kid and the shame and that you're left with just becomes another drop in the bucket yes yeah can we talk a bit about shame? Because you wrote, or actually, I think it was an interview that you gave about being bullied at school, and how coming through that is a process of unlearning. And I'd never heard it expressed that way. And I so related to it as someone who also was bullied at school, but for totally different reasons. But that process of unlearning, can you tell us a bit more about what you meant by that?

I suppose I mean it in the sense that the shame and sense of embarrassment that we carry is like not ours, it's theirs. It's what they put upon us. Those who have said certain things, acted a certain way. And the unlearning is a letting go. It's, well, that's just not mine to carry anymore, I suppose. Did you feel bullied in Hollywood? Yeah. Yeah. From time to time, absolutely.

And that internalized shame, what was it, do you think, that you were most scared of? You, Elliot. In regards to coming out or being myself. being yes and that whole period of your life when people were telling you how you should be I mean the feeling was oh I'll never work again I won't get to do this thing that I love and I suppose just the feeling of judgment really the shame itself it felt too big it did control my life and controlled my way of thinking. I remember first properly seeing a therapist when I was maybe 23 and her saying, you know,

we need to figure out how to have you come out and make it possible for you to come out. And without thought, I just went, no, that is impossible. That is impossible. I will never be able to be out. And I really believed it. I think back now, and I'm just, that's preposterous, but I really believed it. And it was, yeah, a narrative I took on until I was able to go, wait a second, like, wait, why am I listening to this? Actually, why am I listening to this? This is my life. But I think, why am I listening to this? This is my life. But I think, yeah, a lot of it was this thing I love, this what felt like the one thing I knew how to do would be taken away. And then I was so unwell and tired of being closeted and tired of relationships being under such strain and

tired of not taking responsibility, especially when it comes to, again, privilege and resources and stepping up, that living my life became far more important than being in movies. Has that fear gone now? Yeah. Good. Yeah. And has the shame gone? I'm sure there's things lingering around there somewhere but I'm sitting here in conscious

conversation yes it has I love being queer and trans yeah I love it I love it for you sorry I'm so emotional I love it for you I just think that's so beautiful and so powerful tell me why you love acting oh man in some ways it's because it's indescribable, I have to say, but I'll do my best. I love the sensation of working with another person or people and connecting and creating this moment together that, pardon the pun, does feel transcendent and investigating this character that's just on the page

and connecting to something deep in them. Truth, I suppose. I think it is another way of accessing truth. What does truth mean? And finding that character's truth and, you know, emoting and creating an arc of physicality, what have you, from that place. And I find it incredibly magical, a fantastic excuse to feel, you know, and a society that kind of encourages us not to, you know, get to go to work and just feel and emote all over the place. Obviously, it's come and presented certain challenges in my life being an actor. And it's also been a huge gift. You had to shapeshift a lot in your younger life, not only because your physical presentation was not aligned with the truth of who you were,

but also because your parents split up and you had that classic thing of living in two homes and different familial relationships. And you changed schools a lot. Do you think that helped form you as an actor? Maybe potentially. I don't know if I have a good answer for that. That's a good answer. Yeah.

But it could do, or I think it did become an excuse for me to feel. I wasn't necessarily sure how to do it or how to express myself in my real life, so to speak. And that's where I think a lot of my emotion went. Just last point on this failure, which strikes me very much as society's failure rather than your own, although I appreciate the insight that you've shared with us. Do you sometimes find yourself wishing you could go back and do all of those relationships that you felt that you had to hide and all of those acting roles and jobs again, as you truly are? I do sometimes. I can't help but have that sensation in moments or a sense of grief on some

level, wishing I could relive certain moments again. But at the end of the day, I don't actually think that's how I look at life. And I know that it just has been my journey. And here's where I find myself. And it is just the road that it's been. And we all go on very winding roads with ups and downs. And I certainly wish I didn't have to live through the degree of pain I lived through in moments. And I do feel like I lost a fair amount of time. Do you believe that we are sent lives to live for some reason bigger than us? No, I kind of like, like, sure, it could be.

I don't not believe it. I just have no idea what any of this is, you know. But you never know. That's how I feel about life. I'm like, I don't, you know, you never know. Your guess is as good as mine. Yeah, exactly. It's like before we started recording when we were talking about our pets and Elliot said, I'm not not a cat person. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. will no one rid me of this troublesome priest

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and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Your second failure is failure at friendships during periods of isolation. Can you tell me what you mean by that? I mean it in the periods of my life where I did struggle the most. Well, my move often was getting in a relationship. I did that. I didn't really know how to exist alone.

So not that I didn't feel love and care, but really much cling to someone and get in often codependent relationships where that was my focus. And I would sort of disappear and not show up for people in the way that I should have or not be responsive and to those who were very much there for me and let long stretches of time go without being in touch with certain people and not being there for them in difficult moments, maybe not even knowing about the difficult moment because I was so absent. That's something that I feel was definitely a failure.

And I imagine you have spoken to all of these friends about this now because many of them are in Page Boy. What have those conversations been like? I'm lucky that everyone is quite compassionate and and understanding and forgiving of those moments for sure and if anything I think not that they weren't hurt or and rightfully so I think also worried at a certain point people lose patience I don't blame them for that at all, of course. So have you lost friendships?

No, but I'd say in moments I've had to like rebuild them and prove that I can show up and be more present. But yeah, there was definitely moments where I slipped away. I'm extremely interested in the nature of friendship and have written an entire book about it. And I think it's one of those great loves in our lives that never gets enough attention. And the knock-on effect of that is that there's very rarely a language that we can reach for to express the unique, extraordinary complexity of it. And so sometimes that means that we don't have the conversations that we need to have with our closest friends and because it's such a huge term our expectations of friendship can be so vastly different within that relationship and I am now a huge advocate of understanding what our

metrics of friendship are so for me my most important metric is not quality time I don't need to have a phone call I hate phone calls I don't need to have a phone call. I hate phone calls. I don't need to see someone regularly for dinner. I need to know that they're thinking of me with generosity of spirit. And I do the same for them. And we always think the best of each other. And there's something very powerful about holding that space that in itself is tangible love. I wonder what you think your metric of friendship is now? I very much agree with what you just said. Also, in many ways, everybody's different. You know, it might be very important to one friend that they might need to have you be more responsive. That might be something that that friend, because of their life

and their expectations, that might be something that they need. And I'd want to show up that way for them. Whereas other friends, we can not talk for seven months and then see each other and absolutely no time's passed. And that doesn't affect me, you know, personally in that regard. that doesn't affect me personally in that regard. So I'd say it does vary the individual on some level. Yeah, I mean, to me, it's about trust and care and someone seeing you for your true self and you're there for each other when you need to be. I completely agree with you about friendship.

Friendship's been definitely one of the things that's saved me in many ways. Chosen family and found family. And there's people in my life that I just truly do not know where I would be without. Well, let's talk about some of them because I want to talk about your tattoos. Because you do something which I think is so wonderful and has sort of inspired me you get tattoos of certain friends names can you tell us about the tattoos of friends names that you have and who they are and what they represent to you sure the well the first tattoo I ever got is a friend's nickname it's C Keens which is for Catherine Keener who's amazing actor and one of my favorites along with Elliot Page oh that's right Catherine Keener, who's an amazing actor.

One of my favorites, along with Elliot Page. Oh, that's right. Catherine Keener is much better than Elliot Page. Keener I first met when I was 19. We made a film together that was quite, you know, I go into the whole thing, but quite a brutal movie based on a true story and just deeply connected. And she's always, always been there for me. That is someone who I know to the bottom of my core would do anything for me and myself

likewise for her. For example, in the time when Juno was coming out at the peak of its success, that whole period, I was not okay. And like living in a hotel in LA and she had me come live with her and really just supported me and has throughout my whole life and in some of my most difficult moments just really held me. Vatran is my friend Julia's middle name who's one of my dearest friends who likewise I've known since I was 16. I don't know where I would be without. BBs for my dear friend Beatrice Brown, who you just met. The famous Beatrice. The famous Beatrice. And we have Wig here for Kristen Wig's last name, who is someone who's showed up for me. And I have Mark's initials up here. And Mark is in the first chapter and the

last chapter of my book. So yes, friendship, as you can tell, is very important to me. It's literally written all over you. Yeah. You also have a tattoo, I believe, that just says turtle. I do.

Okay, why is that? That really was a, I mean, I love turtles. I love that you love turtles. That was definitely just a bit of a random one. And Bea did most of these tattoos. Great. That's for my friend Spike. Bea did a lot of these.

Yeah. You mentioned Kirsten Wiig there. And I know that you met her through Whip It. Is that right? Yes. Which was directed by Drew Barrymore. Yes. Who gave you an incredible piece of advice that I literally quoted yesterday.

I love it. I still think about it too. Tell us what that piece of advice that I literally quoted yesterday. I love it. I still think about it too. Tell us what that piece of advice is. The keys are always in your pocket. As in, maybe you're saying you're feeling quite anxious about a decision or going somewhere or what have you. And the keys are always in your pocket. Like it's okay to turn around. It's okay to stop. It's okay to say no, it's okay, you know, yeah. Especially as an adult. And I think often if you are working young as a child, if you are, as Drew was, as you were, a child star or a child actor,

you are so accustomed to not having a choice and not having a voice that I imagine it can be very difficult sometimes to remind yourself that, no, I have agency here. Definitely. I think you get pressured tremendously or guilted, pushed into certain things where, yes, you just feel like you're on this conveyor belt and you can't get off. And so that was, yeah, that was very wise. And obviously, I never forgot it. It's in the book. I don't think you forget it now, either. So thank you for passing on Drew Barrymore's words of wisdom. Your third failure is a flip

side to failure two. And in your words, it's failing to reach out to people during those hard periods and being honest with them about how you were really doing. Yeah. I imagine that if you have been forced to hide for so long, it can be such a leap to then start telling the truth. I mean, how do you even do that? I think I also, there was periods where I didn't even know how. I think because of the success that came with my acting career, the privileges that come with that, I felt like I wasn't allowed to not feel okay, you know, and any negative sensation, feeling

sadness, I would berate myself for feeling ungrateful and didn't know how to say to someone like, I'm actually really not okay. I don't know how to function. I don't know how people go about their days. I can't get out of bed. I can barely make it to one meeting in a day. You know, it was hard for me to even know how to say anything at all. I didn't even think about saying it in certain points in my life. It just acted like everything was okay and things were under control and they weren't. Where do you think all of that went? Where did you put it? Well, it clearly was making me unwell and sick,

mentally, physically. When I think of different kind of chipping away, like I was getting chipped away. That's how it felt. And then thankfully at a certain point when I was clearly not doing okay, lost a lot of weight, vicious panic attacks, collapsing, all these things, it was actually my manager who helped get me to my first therapist. And even that was, I'd sit in the room and be

like, why did I have the right to be here and pay all this money to this and this and this? And I'm this privileged kid and da, da, da. And why am I, you know, and in some ways, I think that's also a defense mechanism. It's a way to not have to go there. Yes. To not have to talk about what you really need to talk about. I think for me, it was always avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, which made me more and more and more unwell until there was, you know, no option. Either it was you're're gonna survive or something really bad's gonna happen do you think your friends and your romantic partners at this time

saw that did they try to help and could you not receive it? Or were you so good at masking it that you made it impossible for them to reach out? I think I was good at masking it to a degree. And also people did try, but I think just didn't know what to do. It must've been terrifying. And I'm so sorry you went through that. And I imagine it's also really difficult to revisit when I'm asking you

questions about it. So I appreciate you for your emotional honesty right now. Thank you. After that therapist, who was the first person, if you feel comfortable saying, that you felt able to share with? The closest people to me in my life, like Beatrice and Julia and Keener, those who I felt always, really always wanted me to be able to step into my full self. And I think probably felt helpless in ways in terms of how they could assist me in doing that. And now even he lives in Oxford,

you know, so she's here right now and we're getting to spend time together. But even last night, it's just like reflecting on how I used to be and feel and where I am now. I just feel so grateful. I could have never imagined getting to feel the way I feel now. Was writing Page Boy a healing exercise for you? I mean, I know that's probably not why you did it, but was one of the byproducts a sense of healing and peace? Very healing. Healing, simply for me personally, going through a lot of that, being able to acknowledge a lot of it,

validate so much of my experiences. And it's healed relationships in my life. It's made my mother and I closer. It's made an ex who I write about who was very, very closeted, the Ryan, named in the book. There's been a lot of healing there with us. And that's been really beautiful. So there's been healing all around of that. Yeah, it's been really nice. Well,'s been healing all around of that. Yeah, it's been really nice. Well, I think that's one of the things that really strikes me reading your work is your belief in the capacity of people to evolve. Can you tell us a bit more about your mother and your relationship with her now? Yeah, I mean, my mom did not have the easiest time with my queerness

for a while, you know, probably wasn't until my mid-20s where I feel like she finally was accepting and had worked through whatever was going on with her that was making that challenging, just loved me and my partners and was so sweet and caring and became an advocate and an ally and all those things, you know, but it was a journey. The first time I tried to talk about my sexuality at all when I was 15, she yelled, that doesn't exist, you know, and it caused friction and tension and distance in our relationship, which is so unfortunate, but understandable. She was born in 1954 in St. John, New Brunswick, and her dad was a minister.

Like so many of us, like literally all of us, there's things where we have to grow, we have to expand, we learn more, and we change. And my mom has absolutely done that. And I think in writing the book, sharing with her the things I wanted to have in the book, it let us talk about certain moments in a real way. And I think a lot of weight lifted, a lot of weight lifted. I love to hear that. There are repeated incidents in Page Boy, which

I'm not going to go into because everyone should just go and read it and buy it right now. In fact, stop listening to this podcast now and just go and buy Pageboy. But there are repeated incidents of the sort of bullying that we touched on within the industry that you found yourself. But I wonder if you would mind terribly touching on one of them. And it's a very specific one. But the reason I pick it is because I think that it conveys so much not least your own unease with what you were being asked to do and it's when you had to pose for a photograph for the cover of a magazine in the run-up to the Oscars for Juno do you mind telling us what happened and how it made you feel? It was this thing? Yes, exactly. Okay. I was just, oh yeah, no, you did.

If you're only listening, Elliot is kicking his foot. Yeah, that was this very odd moment. I think back now, it's just like, what? Something would happen with me in certain moments where I would just sort of clamp shut and I found it very difficult to talk. My brain would be wanting to make words and I, for whatever reason, couldn't do it. Like it was just how everything that was going on in that time, how it was manifesting. And that was a photo shoot where it sort of showed up. There was one option of what to wear it was this you know specific dress it was you know probably my sixth photo shoot that week of the same sort of you know and I was sitting in the chair getting hair and makeup done and just sort of numb and

unable to communicate and the director was sitting there and they were talking to me. I was struggling to respond. And then they just lifted their leg, like really pulled their leg back and just pounded the, you know, just like kicked the chair so hard and went like, do you even talk? I was just like in shock, you know, in shock. Such bizarre behavior. So upsetting and so disempowering. And it hurt me to read it, just the image of you there, unable to speak your truth. Thank you for retelling that. It is a very vivid moment in the book. I wonder if I could draw this to a close by asking you what you would say to young Elliot, age four, trying to pee standing up. What would you say to him right now?

I'd say, listen to yourself, trust yourself. You know who you are, you're loved. And that shame or embarrassment that people are going to try and put on you is, it's not yours, it's theirs. And don't let those narratives affect you. Is that also what you would say to anyone listening to this, who is struggling living their true identity in whatever dynamic they find themselves in yes I wish everyone could rid themselves of shame I just think it holds us all back and I think self-love is so powerful not only for yourself and your own becoming but the ripple effects and then how you get to show up for other people in the world.

Elliot Page, thank you for being the living embodiment of truth and for your utter transcendence. Thank you so much for coming on How to Fail. Thanks for having me. if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist