How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S17, Ep5 Bear Grylls on turning fear into courage

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

Bear Grylls has achieved worldwide fame as one of the most recognized faces of survival and outdoor adventure. A former SAS soldier, he has climbed Everest, circumnavigated the British Isles on a jet ski, rowed naked in a bathtub along the Thames and once broke his back in a parachuting accident. But he's most famous for his TV career. He starred in seven seasons of the Discovery Channel’s Emmy Award-nominated Man vs. Wild TV series and hosted Running Wild, which has featured Bear taking President Obama, Julia Roberts, Roger Federer, Will Ferrell, Channing Tatum, and Kate Winslet on extreme adventures.I'm so thrilled to have him on How To Fail because Bear has been talking about the need for bravery to co-exist with fear for as long as he's been in the public eye. He's got a really enlightening take on failure - and our need to learn from it.He joins me to talk about losing his Dad young, failing SAS selection and the cancellation of his first TV show.--Never Give Up by Bear Grylls, is out now and available to order here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodBear Grylls @beargrylls Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Bear Grylls has so many achievements to his name that it's hard to list them all. But for starters, he's climbed Everest, circumnavigated the British Isles on a jet ski, rode naked in a bathtub along the thames and set a world record for the highest open air formal dinner party under a hot air balloon at 7 600 meters while wearing full mess dress and an oxygen mask all of this might sound a bit exhausting to an average punter but grillsrylls is a former soldier in the British Special Forces and, over the years, has become one of the most recognised faces of survival and outdoor

adventure. He starred in seven seasons of the Discovery Channel's Emmy Award-nominated Man vs Wild, reaching an estimated 1.2 billion viewers. The global hit TV show, Running Wild with Bear Grylls, featured celebrity guests such as Julia Roberts, Roger Federer, and President Barack Obama trying to survive extremes. Grylls' autobiography, Mud, Sweat and Tears, spent 15 weeks at number one in the Sunday Times bestseller list, and he has written over 90 books, selling in excess of 20 million copies worldwide. written over 90 books, selling in excess of 20 million copies worldwide. His latest, Never Give Up, was published in 2021. Grylls is an honorary colonel to the Royal Marines Commandos, the youngest ever UK Chief Scout, and an OBE. But despite, or perhaps because of, all this success,

he's also someone who shares my attitude to failure. According to Grills, dealing with failure has been the key to any success in my life. Bear Grills, welcome to How to Fail. Gosh, yeah. Your life in a nutshell. It's a sweet introduction. I mean, I sit there thinking the alternative one might be more like, Grlls is much less sure of himself than that other introduction yes might make out he's been hiding in the loo downstairs for the last 10 minutes and clutches his cup of tea frantically as a nervous sort of you know and of his 96 books he's written 15 of them are coloring in books for kids

so that might be a more honest one. But I appreciate your introduction. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Are you actually nervous? I spent so much of my life nervous. And I always kind of hope and think that as I get older and do more, see more, survive more, scrape through more things,

that the nerves would get better. But actually, I think they probably get worse. But I've learned not to run from them and to be okay with them and to treat it like a friend and to treat it like, you know what, it means we're on the edge. You know, my edge might get less extreme, but we're on the edge and we're doing stuff

and you've got to keep that muscle, that inner muscle kind of going, haven't't you and trying to do the difficult stuff so I do struggle a lot with nerves but that's okay when you say you think that they've got worse is that because you're aware that you have more to lose the older you get I think it's more that I think the public persona because of the tv shows where everything's always great and the music's thumping, we're swinging off everything and diving in and taking amazing people on great adventures. It feels ever more inflated, like the perfect stuff, the great stuff goes out there. That's what gets shown.

And I suppose the nerves in me come from, I feel the gulf between that and actually the real person gets bigger but I haven't changed it's just that balloon's got more inflated and sort of bigger and suddenly you know I start off climbing with my dad as a kid and then that grew into something else and then before I knew it we'd start a little club at a school and then there you go and then you join the army and then you start going up in that one then you try some expeditions the mountains get bigger and the balloon sort of gets bigger and before you know it the tv shows and then they get bigger but over here on this hand i'm still that same kid who wants to climb

up the tree and hide away scared of getting my gcse envelope through the door you know nothing's really changed so i think if i'm being really honest the nerves come from aware of that probably not as great and strong and brave and brilliant as sometimes the tv shows make out but I've also learned that that is okay you know we're all human the more we're vulnerable with people the more connection we create with people and the real wealth in all of our lives always comes through connection, whether it's with our kids or with our spouse or with our friends or with an audience. So I'm not afraid to share that, but it is probably the truth. Apart from the SAS and the Daring Do and the Naked Bathtubs and the global TV success and

the bestselling books, I feel like we're the same person. Because everything you've just said there is exactly what I think, and I relate so deeply. And it's an incredibly beautiful thing for you to share at the top of this interview. Because now there's already that profound connection. Yeah. I completely... Well, it's so important.

You know, you've got to have that, haven't you? And I think I've learned it so much as well in the speaking world, which was such a big part of my world before the TV stuff. And I still do a lot of it. The adventure world is full of very butch, alpha, black jackets, muscles, you know. And it's never interested me, you know, from early days, really, even from the military stuff, actually, ironically, even though I was in a regiment, you know, from early days really even from the military staff actually ironically even though

I was in a you know a regiment you know in 21 SAS which was on the surface of it all quite gung-ho the irony is the guys were the most grounded real honest often vulnerable people and not the gung-ho one so I always kind of found a home from early years in that ethos yeah but I've learned with speaking you know I do the motivational stuff and some you know explorer will come before and speak and stand up and and nobody cares how much it's that thing nobody what is it nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care and it's that same sort of thing if nobody cares how many things you've conquered or flags on summits you've plundered it has no meaning unless there's honesty and fragility with it. And I've just learned through experience that the more you share the struggles,

the other stuff has meaning anyway. You talk a lot about the danger of ego, and you write a lot about that in a way that I find really fascinating. And I suppose the irony is that TV and a TV career in many ways can fuel an ego and speak to it and make it bigger. So is that something that you struggle with? Do you watch yourself back on TV ever? I used it in the very early days I did and then wince and go oh this is terrible. If I started my career now I wouldn't have had a career because it would have got canned so early I think I was lucky that 15 years ago when I started TV it was less ruthless I think TV and people would give me another chance they you know our ratings had never been brilliant we've always just been good enough and it's just the irony is that seen us through for year upon year upon year and season upon season

because we've just made it you know but I think people backed me in the early years in TV and it gave me enough time. It took me like four or five years of seasons of shows to begin to learn how to do it. So I could get a little better at it, but I certainly don't watch any of the shows now. I find it too uncomfortable. I just really don't enjoy it.

And I kind of think, do you know what? I prefer to hang out with the boys, with the family. I've got really other things that would be higher up my motivation of how to spend the time is the honest answer but it's interesting because you know you say tv sort of can fuel the ego stuff and it's interesting I wonder whether just success generally does that you know it doesn't matter what fear you I think if you feel you're winning in life, that can always be dangerous because it fuels anyone's ego. And I think like big mountains, it can bring out the best and the worst in people. And I think success is like that.

It can bring out monsters. It can create monsters, inflate the monsters, or it can give you a chance for something beautiful to come out. And it's that thing of if you want to see what someone's like, them a hard time but if you want to see what they're really like give them everything I think so much of life is like that and therefore if you are lucky enough to win at a few things whether it's your career or other things be humble because it's kind of there by the grace of God for all of us it's kind of what I feel your new book never give up you have this line in it about how if you sit on the summit too long you die tell us about that because

it's it's true and it's a great metaphor but you climbed Everest for one of the youngest people ever to do so and I want to know what that experience was like but it's actually true isn't it that the summit is the most dangerous point? So what do you want? Do you want the physical or do you want the metaphor? I sort of want both. Start with the physical and then segue into the metaphor. The truth is, if you stay on the summit, it's too long, you die. That is a true mantra in terms of high altitude mountaineering.

And the most dangerous time is always on the way down because all the focus and the adrenaline is for the top the dream the effort and then you kind of want to be able to click your fingers and be safe and home but the truth is you're at your furthest point from safety and home and once that adrenaline and focus goes it gets replaced fast by fatigue and exhaustion and look at the story of you know spencer's brother on everest it's the same thing you know once come it's always on the way down that's spencer matthews's brother and you've just exactly produced this phenomenal documentary about finding cool finding michael about spencer trying to recover his brother's body up there but so many of the fatalities on the high mountains happen on that descent for that

reason you know that adrenaline gets replaced by that deep fatigue and therefore in a way it's easy to be focused when you're aiming for our summits in life everyone has that the character comes through can you be focused not only for your own descent back to real life but also maybe when you've got to suddenly now help somebody else you know now when things are going wrong it's that mantra of adventure only happens when things begin to go wrong. You know, it's easy to be gung-ho and great and adrenaline filled and focused when you know what's happening

and you're aiming for that summit, but you really learn about people. It's that same thing. You learn when the things go wrong, when you're fatigued and when the triumph is over. I write about it in the book in the sense that I'm very nervous ever of kind of standing going, look at me me aren't I

great because the truth is none of us are that great most of us if we get to the top of something in our life whatever that triumph is the truth is we tend to stand on the shoulders of many beautiful people and giants who've helped us and been kind to us and encouraged us and supported us and elevated us over themselves and therefore to stand on a summit on your own is a lonely place to stand alongside close friends is beautiful but above all know that what it's taken to get you there is often the love and the support and the energy of many other people who'd never get to stand there don't sit on the laurels too long is what I'm saying don't pat yourself on the back get back into the valleys because the valleys is where the character's made, really.

Summits are the glory moments, they're the easy moments. Once the sun dips and you're back in the valley, then we learn about people. And when you're climbing at that altitude, I'm interested in the physicality of that. I've experienced altitude sickness when I've gone skiing as a child. So that's the closest thing I had, which was unpleasant nauseating but do you feel like your lungs what's the actual physical experience of trying to breathe and move yeah it's actually very hard to describe the real high altitude effects of being in that that death zone above 25 26 thousand feet it's very hard to describe but I think you say what do you say nauseating and just I just felt sick sick basically

you just turn the dial up turn the dial up and you can turn it right up but you even saw in the Finding Michael premiere that you came to the other day my team that have lived with me for many years helped me with my work world and heard my Everest story many times you know a lot of them came out of that premiere going god I actually had no idea just how debilitating it is at altitude and you see that even with some of the great sherpa climbers and those guys how hard it was even for them up there trying to do that body recovery and search so it is hard i always say it's a bit like trying to climb in waist deep treacle whilst giving somebody a piggyback and then they're trying to stuff a pair of football socks down your throat at the same time you know you're sucking you're wheezing you're not moving you're sliding backwards but

it's minus 40 and and you feel up against it and many times I think back to that time on Everest and I watched that film that we were together and it brings a lot of those memories back but those loud voice in the back of my head going you're never going to make this you know especially I mean we were there 93 days or whatever and i remember that summit attempt from that last camp that last push you know you've given your everything we'd i've taken a year out for the army to train for this we were like super focused we've been there these 90 odd days but the weather's turning it's minus whatever it's dark you got this ice face of 2000 feet of just chest deep powder snow in front of you. And I'm sliding back with every step.

And I just had that voice going, what are you doing? You are never, ever going to make it. And it's like we have that voice. The dial isn't always turned up to 10 like that in everyday life. But it has moments, all of us. And we all face our Everest every day in different ways in relationships and in battles and health stuff in but it's like knowing the good voice and knowing the bad voice and try and try and just go I know that's how I might feel but we've got this and they're trying to tune in the

voice on the other shoulder that says keep going quietly focus just one foot in front of the other day by day breath by breath hold the hands of those around you. Keep moving. Love, you know, there's power to that. It's why the book was always going to be called Never Give Up. You know, it's not rocket science. And who are those voices for you? Because some people give the inner critic the voice of a harsh teacher or a critical parent.

Part of my issue is that my inner critic is just me. It doesn't have an outside voice. Well, we could be our harshest critic yes do you know who they are I mean I know Ran Fiennes always says it was his father who died when he was very young he'd always imagine his dad standing beside him but it's quite a harsh dad of like do not you don't you dare give up you know mine wasn't some adventure figure willing me on I don't know mine's just that inner voice it can be a darker voice on one shot of like criticism but I've just learned through experience over the years to try and discern the voices and generally I think we've got a subconscious and a heart and a soul or a spirit or whatever you call it that is for us

it is for us it wants to heal it wants to strengthen it wants to help I mean it does it's just your subconscious wants to help you and I think it's discerning that voice and I think for me my faith plays a part of that having a sort of Christian faith definitely is that inner voice of love of acceptance of kind of forgiveness and strength and for me it's always been that like inner backbone that secret backbone inside and trying to hear that voice that is full of love and encouragement shortly before you summited everest you broke your back in a parachuting accident and had 10 hours a day rehab for the best part of a year. What did that rehab

teach you? Again, I'm not as strong as I sometimes hope I am. I was at a stage in life, age 21, 22, where I felt invincible. I was doing a job that I loved, you know, in the military and I felt strong. I felt strong. But as you know, it doesn't take much in life to change that. And suddenly being in that hospital, strapped up in braces and struggling to reach a bathroom without pain and not a chance of being able to reach a bathroom on the floor above me in any capacity. Life has a way of humbling us all.

The dial on that can turn up in different ways. But that definitely was a real kind of shock. And I think for me, it was not my confidence above everything at that stage where I'd gone from like lots of confidence I can do this I'm doing a job that I love with the people I love I'm in that zone to actually how quickly it can go to feel like a disaster and our legs have been taken out from under us and I was going to have that as one of my failures with you but it felt maybe an obvious one so I wasn't going to have that as one of my failures with you but it felt maybe an obvious one so I wasn't going to have that it was a really tough time of kind of like trying to figure out what the hell am I

going to do now now I can't do this job that I was loving and the chances of ever climbing anything again is ridiculous what am I actually going to do but I do look back at the same time and I think if I hadn't have gone through that would I have ever actually as I started to recover would I have had the strength of like will to go no I'm gonna get better I'm gonna reach that bathroom on the floor upstairs and I'm gonna go further and again and harder and I'm gonna get strong enough to eventually climb the biggest mountain in the world that became the whole focus of my recovery and I just felt like life has given me a precious second chance. We don't always get that. I should have been paralyzed. You know, that accident, I mean, it broke through my back in three places, but it should have paralyzed me. And I've been

given a second chance. Don't waste it. You're going to live every day for the rest of your life with smile and gratitude. How many bad stuff happens. Like everything's a gift. Everything is a gift. Let's get onto your first failure. Your less obvious failures. Not that that was your failure. Your first one is losing your dad when you were young. I'm so sorry. You're so sweet.

You're so sweet. I appreciate you saying that. No, it's like, listen, everyone goes through loss and mine is no worse than anyone's but I was thinking is that a failure you know but failure comes in many forms doesn't it and you know it's that thing of sometimes just a disaster yes can be the hardest ones yes because they're outside of our control you know somehow when we fail of our own there's a way out and through get stronger get better get smarter get you know go

again but I think sometimes when things are outside of our control and just life those can be hard and personal and I look back on that time and I feel I was ill-equipped to deal with trauma at a young age in my sort of mid-20s I just got married to Shara and we got married young and we were starting out on life together and it was an adventure but we always had that backstop you know she had her mum and dad I had my mum and dad we could live life boldly and go for things as we were and let's we'll live on a houseboat and we'll do a whack it I'll try and follow this career path of like doing the path less trodden and try and do adventures and we could do all this because there's always a backstop and in year one of

marriage Shara's father died of MS and literally 10 weeks later my dad died totally out of the blue and so first of all we were dealing with the trauma of shara who'd grown up and had all through her teenage years her dad slowly dying which was beyond traumatic for her and still a sort of wound for her for sure and she's just been an amazing lady and daughter and wonderful but that was a very hard time for her and then suddenly my dad out of the blue died and you know policemen came around to our houseboat knocked on the door and we were like what just literally felt like they're sort of legs taken out underneath me when my legs had always been strong you know I'd always had good foundation I'd always I was strong and it literally just cut them out from under me and I felt

ill-equipped I think at that age to deal it. And I was already on the back foot with poor Shara and everything she was going through. And now I wasn't on any feet. And then we had our two mothers, you know, we had the wailing mothers. And suddenly it was like now the dynamic in a heartbeat has changed from having a backstop to now like we're now responsible for our mothers and we've got to look after them. And that £50 that my dad always still gave me as allowance ever since I was 17. And it never stopped it until I was like 23. And it was always the unspoken thing.

All the little silly things like that. You know, suddenly the dynamics reverse. And now we've got to get on. We've got to make something of our lives. No more messing around. Now you've got to look at your risk profile of how are you really going to live your life? You're going to spend your time like this? Is it worth it? Can you do it? Can you pull off a career like this? You also got to look after each other and the mother. So it was definitely, I look back,

I struggled a lot. And I don't think I expressed that very well apart from just in quiet sort of panic and leaning on each other. It brought us very close. Year one of marriage. I look back now and I think, wow, actually that was a hurricane. But it really made us cling to each other and actually created a lot of the foundation for our life. You know, like you don't have the luxury of like just arguing stupidly about things. Like don't waste your time in it.

Just be humble with each other, love each other, be committed to each other, make things work. You can't afford the luxury of screwing up we need our family good we need each other's back we're starting off on a difficult path we've got to have each other's back on this do you mind my asking how he died he wasn't ill you know so he died out of the blue he was having a pacemaker fitted because he said to me oh my heart rate apparently is low they said I should get a pacemaker fitted and he was down in Dorset and I said oh come down I come down and hold your hand and we'll take you in so I did that took him into the hospital and they wheeled him into his routine quick operation and I remember saying to the doctor said will you let

me stay into the operation they said we can't do. And it's about one of the only times I pulled out my SAS ID card. I said, will you let me in? I'm a qualified patrol medic, you know, sort of slightly blustering it. But they went, okay. And they got me gowned up. And I was there with the doctors who's doing it. And it was amazing watching it. And I was thinking, this looks good.

And, you know, I held my dad's hand and he came out and he was okay and and he said you've got to go you've got to go back to shock go back to London I said you sure and he was so grateful I'd been with him throughout held his hand through in and out and I got my bike and I biked the train station back to London and then literally the next morning my mum well she, she didn't even ring me, it was just the policeman turning up and he had just sat up in bed in the morning and my mum said literally the light just went out and he was 66 and it was so crazy and felt unnecessary as well, you know.

Somehow, you know, we all know life is hard and like somehow with Shara's dad, it was just this relentless process of attrition, of fighting and fighting and fighting, but you're fighting against nature and disease and you don't always win. But I think with my dad, because it was so unexpected, it felt like, wow, could we not? Surely we could have done something about this.

Why? Hold on, hold on, stop. That's what it felt like. And I felt like I'd missed a beat. What have I missed here why and I think those answers don't go away and I actually really if I miss my dad every day still in a way ever more so with our three boys you know we've got three wonderful I mean they're all teenagers now isn't one of them in their 20s no no. No, Jesse's 19 now, 16 and 13. And I just think, gosh, my dad would love them.

You know, the wild part of my dad, that kind of rule-breaking adventure, practical joking, messing around, laughing at self side of my dad that was always rich and bright. It is rich and bright in our three boys. And he would love them and they would love him so that's the sadness but that's also life I think you've spoken about that so profoundly and I know lots of people will hugely relate and feel very comforted by your words to go back to what you were saying about failure I think that you're right there are two different types

there's the failure when life doesn't go according to plan, when you fail your driving test or you fail SAS selection, which we're coming on to. And there's the cataclysmic failure, which happens to you and is like your father dying totally out of the blue or a global pandemic. And those failures in and of themselves have no meaning within them. failures in and of themselves have no meaning within them. But my belief is that living alongside them and the grief and the pain that they might cause teaches us something. Yeah. There's no question there.

I just wanted to say that. You're right. I'm aware that it's a different kind of failure. Life teaches us. You know, it's like I say, life is humbling at every step of the way. Yeah. And if you don't feel that, life doesn't care.

It's just going to keep doing it. I wanted to ask you something. I do think life brings us together, though. Yes, I do too, if you allow it. With good people, you know, that we meet continually day to day. And if you let it, that's a wonderful thing, to be brought together to good people. And that's why the vulnerability is so important,

because without that, there's no connection. Exactly. And it's something I lean on more and more in my life. It's just those friendships. It's our only real wealth in our life. You know, we spend so much time pursuing other wealth, but none of that's real. You know, it has no real value. The only real wealth we have in our lives,

it's always going to be rooted in the quality of our relationships. It's why you can say to, you know, is that billionaire whose kids don't speak to him is he really rich you know and we all know all of this stuff but sometimes I need reminding it's like the real stuff is always in the relationships I wanted to ask you because you you mentioned there that you found it hard other than Shara to talk about what you were going through and I'm aware that you were sent to boarding school at a young age I was sent to boarding school too at a slightly older age and I'm sure you're also aware that this condition has

now been invented or credited which is boarding school syndrome which is a sort of dislocation oh it's really interesting it's sort of all the stuff that we probably would take for granted, which is like, you feel very detached from your parents, not emotionally, but you feel like, you still feel that loss, that you had this distance, this wrench from your parents at a young age, and that can lead to emotional repression.

And it can, especially for men, lead to problems later in life. That's my roundabout way of asking what boarding school was like for you but also whether you feel that you were doubly cheated of time with your father because you had those years away from him too I think that was my overriding sense of loss was like which should be just sudden to spend our time together yes yes so that was hard I think the thing with boarding school there's no doubt where you say it's true and I definitely felt that because I

was so close to my parents the kid growing up especially wonderful cozy times all the time so going away was hard but at the same time I'm always mindful of not sort of blaming you know I went to amazing schools with lovely people and made great friends. But it doesn't take away from the fact that I felt ill-equipped at a young age to be going away and definitely felt a sadness there. And it made me probably quite shy at a young age, a little bit kind of insular. You know, I had a much more extrovert older sister who loved the limelight and I was always hiding away but I was always like the younger brother come and dance like a seal for my friends

and eat some raw bacon and just do as you're told okay you know so I was always hiding and I think school felt scary and the solution was to hide so I was always hiding which is why there's always still that natural tension for me in my job now of like having a job that's always filmed you're always on camera for stuff and I really struggle with it still to this day our crew on our tv shows know it they try to not let me know that they're filming and it's just like I'll go let's go let's just go so then there's never an action there's never a oh could you do that again or what did you know it's like just go yeah and there's an energy and a pace in the early days nobody would think it would work and they'd probably be right but somehow it did and that energy stayed and we

over the years just thought if it ain't broke don't fix it let bear go keep the cameras rolling and I sort of I suppose I'm continually running away from the cameras, is essentially what the show is. That was so interesting. Yeah, it really is. And I struggle with it, but it's become a necessary part of my job. You know, I'm always like, their joke is always, you'd just love to do it without the cameras. Like, I'd love to do it without them. It would transform everything.

It'd be suddenly a pleasant experience rather than like a mission to get through. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?

This is a time of great foreboding. These words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, these words, supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. When was the first time you thought to yourself, I love adventure and that's what I want to do for a living? Did you love Biggles as a child?

Well, I don't think it was as articulate as I love adventure. It was more like, I don't think I could do anything anything this is the only thing I've ever been okay at and even that I'm not particularly brilliant at it but I really love it and it was always what I did with my dad and it brought us close and I kind of that became an identity for me and what I loved you gravitate I think when you're nervous in life to what you feel naturally good at and what you like and that's all I've ever done is just gravitate naturally to what I've liked and felt I'm okay at having said that over the years I've also learned that I'm actually not particularly brilliant at any of this stuff and I find the more I learn about my world of the adventure stuff the more

I do of it the more I realize gosh so many other people be so much better at my job than me really really do I really it's a genuine feeling two gen too genuine one is like any old idiot could do my job it's true yeah you can argue however you like but I really believe that and secondly I'm surrounded by people who are better skydivers better climbers better adventurers better survivalists better tv hosts and again it's okay it's okay that is that is life you don't have to be the best it's that. It's okay. That is life. You don't have to be the best. It's that scout thing of do your best rather than be the best. Yes.

And I don't mind that. You're right that it's okay. I respectfully disagree with you because I think what you bring together is physical prowess, but also the ability to connect and communicate in almost like a priest-like capacity. the ability to connect and communicate in almost like a priest-like capacity when you are running through extremes with celebrities you have to connect very quickly and they have to trust you very quickly that's true there's not very many people who could do that and I yeah but it's still not rocket science and I've done so much of it it's a guiding job and I love that it's like if you go and climb a mountain with an alpine guide, it's a guiding job that's filmed and you're chatting a bit along the way and you have to have a sort of vague weather eye out for the cameras to make sure they're vaguely getting some things that vaguely worked whilst keeping the energy of keeping moving and have a plan for a route.

You know, you need a little bit of a sensitivity about how to adapt routes and adjust it and be sensitive to people's fear levels and how they're struggling with stuff or coping or can you stretch it even further because they're doing great you know but these learned skills that have just come from over the years I really do feel that anyone with a bit of training could do my job do you feel that the bravest people are the ones with the most fear I've learned the fear is always there in brave people. I mean, in fact, it's the other way around. You can't be a brave person without the fear. I mean, just not having fear and doing it mindlessly is, that's just stupidity.

That's not courage. You know, courage is always quiet and there's stumbling and there's a struggle and there's summoning it up from inside to keep moving forward towards the difficult stuff rather than running. Like most of us do in life, whenever it gets hard, scary or difficult, we turn on our tail, you know, whatever it is. moving forward towards the difficult stuff rather than running like most of us do in life whenever it gets hard scary or difficult we turn on our tail you know whatever it is public speaking

hospitals whatever we're scared of we go the other way from it but I have learned and the wild has taught me you've got to keep moving towards the difficult stuff it's a muscle you've got to train it and if you don't train it you don't do it enough and you suddenly confronted with it you're going to get an adrenal overload of panic. You're not going to be able to speak your name. You'll probably pee in your trousers and the fear will be overwhelming. But if you're used to it and the little things, whether it's having a 20-second cold shower every day, whatever the little stuff is, that's how we get strong. wrong and therefore in the big moments when it's all going wrong and that log is collapsing under your feet across a ravine and it's all happening in a heartbeat and time slowing and you're trying

to save someone else at the same time the snakes about it yeah then you're on it because the muscle is strong and I feel proud that that muscle has been trained over the years but beyond that I don't think I have particularly I don't think those are skills. I mean, my family say to me, they go, Papa, your head is full of an awful lot of useless information. And they're right. But I always go, but until your life is on the line. And I love it. I mean, listen, I don't mind the fact that our boys are ruthless with me.

We were discussing this the other day, arguing about something as a family. Jessie goes, Papa, all you do is build wooden teepees in the forest. You can't even enter this discussion. And thank God for families to remind us all of a few home truths. I want to get on to your second failure, but I first want to ask you a question about your name, which I know your older sister who you mentioned who made you eat raw bacon, she gave the nickname bear do you like bears I love bears I wouldn't

say I'm not like obsessed by but I'm probably more obsessed by rhinos I love rhinos I mean our house is full of rhino rhino lamps and pictures of rhinos so I love rhinos why do you love rhinos I think it's you kind of put the horn down and get focused, you know, charge through that jungle, have a thick skin when you need to, but also be super tender with your family and gentle when the sun dips, loving with the kids. And, you know, rhinos have a great dynamic like that of being very, very tender, very family orientated, very protective, then very focused and unstoppable when charging. They've got a great work-life balance. And also they love mud. You know, they love a mud hole. I love a mud hole.

You know, I don't know. I've always just related to, I like a rhino. Yeah, it's a family joke really. I love giant pandas because they just roll around eating bamboo and they're just chilled and they have thumbs. That's why. It's a great reason, why not?

They get a lot of credit just for having sex like that's literally everyone applauds okay your second failure is failing SAS selection first time around so you go to school you don't go to university you'll drop out of university what happens how did you well I'd done pre-selection to join the Royal Marines as a commando, as an officer, set to go, started university, conventional path in some ways, in the sense I'd gone to university. I was ready then to join as an officer, which a lot of my kind of friends and peers were doing. You know, the Marines was slightly less usual route, but it was still a conventional kind of route. And I was set to do that. And I started university. And first of all and I was set to do that and I started

university and I first of all I made the friend for life in the first week who's still my greatest brother to this day and both of us read a book called The Quiet Soldier which is such great it's such a great but old book about a guy who went to try and join 21 SAS as a soldier and what he went through and it was the first kind of book of its type of actually describing really what it was like. Now there's so many books on the SAS and stuff. And I remember just being captivated by that. And together with Trucker, who's this great brother to this day, we both kind of had a moment where we looked at each other and thought,

what do you think? Do we throw it all in and go for this and try and join as a soldier, not as an officer? It was a sort of a route in we could do straight from Civvy Street to try and apply as a trooper, as a private at the bottom of the pile, but a long route to try and go and do SAS selection. And for me, it would involve leaving university, throwing that down. I'd be passing over the Royal Marine staff that I was all lined up to do and had worked really hard to get and it was like I love that who dares win spirit you know that is the regimental motto I love that it's like you know you if you risk nothing you gain nothing I loved all of that that path less trodden come on I know these phrases

are you actually going to put your money where your mouth is and actually have the balls to do it so we decided to do it and I dropped out of uni and we applied and this journey began and I remember on day one we were lined up 120 of us recruits we were already the odd ones out so all like Welsh and tough and you know sheep farmers and great brilliant people you know and we were like the two oddballs. And I remember early on, day one, they said, they could see we were together and everything. We did everything together, like Pinky and Perky. They used to call us Rankin Xerox, Bracket and Hinge.

You know, it was always, but they said, don't be friends. Wow. Because four of you will be here at the end of this process. And the likelihood of you being you and your buddy is kind of zero and therefore get focused do what you need to do but don't expect both of you to be here at the end the odds are against you which kind of made sense but we couldn't really adhere to it because we were great buddies and we sort of stuck together like glue and we started this process and after about probably about halfway through you know having many months down the line it was

one particular march over the breckins you know it's progressively heavier weights longer distances day and night relentless thrashing you know and just one of them i wasn't fast enough i wasn't which just wasn't good enough full stop and when that clock comes down it's like you know we'd watch it every step of the way you know you, you're either that side, through, that side, gone. And that number gets smaller and smaller. And I just was the wrong side of it. And I was devastated. And Trucker was devastated because he was through.

And I went home and I was like, literally, I felt I've given everything. I've sacrificed university now. I've sacrificed the Royal Marines staff. I've sacrificed my pride. Everyone knew. Everyone, my family known. I've dropped and given everything for this. I'm not going as an officer. you know sacrifice the Royal Marines staff sacrifice my pride everyone knew everyone that my family known I've dropped and given it everything for this I'm not going as an officer I was trying to do it unconventionally as a soldier and it's all backfired gone and then about five days later phone call goes there's a trucker on the other end of the phone getting

tears going and he'd failed as well it was like wow we're really we should have listened to him at the beginning that we're unlikely both to be there and definitely unlikely to both be there together and about a week after that we got a letter saying sometimes we think people have potential and we ask them to come back not often but sometimes and we'd like you both to come apply again and it was like right now we gotta get serious we are not screwing this up again we are doubling down on everything we're going to train harder with more intensity we're gonna it was 100 of our effort and focus before but it's like we just turned that dial right up and like went rhino went rhino that horn was sharp and we went back with much more confidence and

the mystique had gone a bit for us now, so we can sort for what it was, rather than being overwhelmed and intimidated, which is probably what I felt, if I'm honest, at the beginning. And now it's like, I'm here to do a job, I'm going to be at the front of everything, I'm going to be unstoppable. 120 of us lined up, two of us, we stuck together, and Trucker and myself were two of the four who were there,

right at the end. Still best buddy to this day strongest man i know he is he was always a much better soldier than i ever was it's a great pride in our life that we came through that together and so many of our great relationships and friends are from those days you know still sergeant bob bob williams he's a bit older now bob lives in merthyr tydfil he was our directing staff running running selection, one of the corporals. Still to this day, we go and see him regularly. He goes, fellas, you earned your place there. You did it. I knew you could do it. And those friendships and that

sort of belief in somebody has carried me through so much since, because I didn't really have that confidence at the beginning. But sometimes you've got to earn the confidence. And I think I came out of that going, no, you know what? We can do this and we're okay. And we've got this. I know the recipe. I know the ingredients to success now. You know, you've got to go through the pain. You've got to be committed. You've got to give your all. You've got to know it's going to hurt. You've got to hold the hand of those close to you. You've got to work together. You've got to try and be a good guy. That's a big part of selection is also your face has got to fit.

You know, and all these factors have been so instrumental, I think, in life since. Fascinating. So there you go. It's a long-winded story. No, it's amazing. When you fail now or when you experience a loss and you feel sadness, is that where you go to your relationships, your friendships, your wife? Are you able to talk about it with them?

Yeah, I'm always okay to share struggles. But more importantly than that, I now know that failure isn't failure. You know, failure is I haven't quite got it there. I haven't figured out quite the combination. You know, the only one real failure is when we give up. Then it's the end. Failure is a stepping stone. I see it now. I know it. I know it from experience. I mean, I've failed so many times and so many things. I mean, I had to list out to our boys the other day. They see the good stuff.

They see the fruits of a few successes in our life that have been amazing blessings and brilliant and so lucky. But they don't always see the many multiple failures behind it. I had to list out for them the other day all the projects and expeditions and businesses we've done and so many things. And the list was like this, you know. Do you actually physically do a list? I listed it all out. And I'll talk about the TV sun a bit.

But it's interesting that it wasn't close. You know, there were like five or six wins, 50 or 60 disasters. And I'm really proud of those. It's not faux pride. It's like real pride. It's like those were the doorways to stepping stones. They're the stripes, the scars, the wrinkles that I'm not going to hide from. I love it. You know, I look, it is like wrinkles or scars, you know, these are the

stories, the adventures, they're what make us, they're the cement, they're the cells, they're the blood, they're the building blocks, you know. So I'm not afraid of those. And I know that when I fail, it's okay. It's like, we've got to go again. We've got to get smarter. We've got to innovate. We've got to think differently. And it's a symbol and a sign and a flag now to me that we're doing something right my final question on this failure before we move on to your third one you don't have to answer this if you don't want to those tv programs about sas selection where they get members of the public to do it or celebrities is that what it's like well i think it's accelerated because they're there for two weeks or whatever but I think the

sort of spirit of self-reliance is right I think the spirit of you've got to have a never give up spirit is right I think the spirit of you've got to be a team player is correct so I'm not an armchair critic of those going oh it's rubbish I think the guys do a great job on that show but it is obviously different but I do think that they have a lot of it a lot of it right I mean it's interesting I went with Trucker the other day down to an old regimental reunion dinner and some of the current SAS guys one of the guys stood up to give a presentation during the dinner to tell us what how selection has evolved over the years and how it's changed and what it's like now and it's funny because

truck and me looked at each other just with a look and i knew exactly what he was thinking and he knew exactly what i was thinking which was we'd never make it today we'd never get through you know i think it's become ever harder ever more intense there was always room for kind of the mavericks. And, you know, you've got to pass certain criteria. You've got to, you know, I don't want to sort of, it was hard and it took our all. But I was listening thinking, God, I don't think I've not shot past that.

But yeah, there we go. There by the grace of God go we in all these things. Did you have the psychological breakdown? Yeah, we had all of that i mean they're actually i mean listen the other side of that coin is in some ways very little has changed at the same time because the ethos and the values and it's the same and the the type of testing that mix of physical mental emotional team spirit solo spirit being able to operate under pressure on your own for long periods of time when you're sleep deprived and hungry and cold and all of that stuff is still in there. But it just feels, I don't know whether it's we're getting older, whether it feels like humans have got ever more capable and they've had to turn the dial up even more. I don't know.

I mean, it is a bit like in our day, you know, few people could do a handstand. Yes. Now all you've got is YouTube and you can figure out how to do triple backflips and you look at Instagram and everyone's doing it. And I'm like, wow. Oh, look, shit, wow, there's a progression Instagram on how I can do a double backflip.

I'm going to learn that, you know. And I love that. That's human nature and brilliant. Your third failure is that your first TV show was cancelled. First network US TV show. Oh, okay. But it was a big step for us because we were in the sort of groove of Man Vs. Wild and Discovery and Season 7.

I thought, hold on, I can do this bigger. Rather than just doing the same stuff, it was always like I want to leave things five minutes too early than too late. And I thought, I wonder if we just go big in the sense that we finish this job early, finish your show early before, you know, don't let it get canned in three seasons time when it's dying. Go at the top, go strong, use that energy and that heat, go to a bigger network, go

to a mainstream US NBC type network and try and do something that we own. Because we didn't own Man Vs. Wild. We were, I was a hired gun, essentially. Paid a fee, told to go and do a job. And it was getting ever more dangerous. We were having ever more narrow scrapes with my life. It was ever more time away from a young family.

And I thought, hold on, we're not running this smart. If we're smart, we own the show. We own the content. We own the IP. We dictate when and where we film, with who, with the teams I like, with the crews I like. I haven't got some director pushing me to do further. It's like, I should be running this.

But it's a risk because we've got to finish the show. And then we've got to leap and hope we grab hold of a bigger fish and then get that. So it was a lot of risk. But we took it, had a massive fallout with Discovery over it because they didn't want us to quit because it was running and working and winning but i did quit we put our own team together we got rid of all the agents we pitched this big show to the us networks and i remember all my old agencies going you're crazy if you go for network tv if there's a dip in the ratings for a second it's off and gone and then you'll never get hired you won't you won't be able to go back to discovery and you won't be and it was all fear and you can't operate with fear and it's like i'm not

going to start living on the back foot everything good in my life has come from being on the front foot that who does wins that risk-taking spirit might not work this time might take four guys five guys but i know how to live i know the ingredients so we went for it and eventually we got a commission with NBC for a show called Get Out Alive, big show. And they put a ton of effort and time and money behind it. We went and shot it. You know, it felt a risk, but we did it and it was great. Went out and just wasn't good enough, wasn't strong. Ratings weren't good enough and it got canned. And it was like, wow, this felt like essay selection over again, first time first time you know it's like I've

risked everything yes severed everything put it all on that and it's been public that's been public but more than that it's not just pride now now it's about one's career it's like hold on I've got no future if I haven't got this I haven't got anything else you know I haven't got a degree I haven't got anything else but we kept going you know and we said let's innovate let's hold's figure out another way and we put out all the ratings of other things or how can we make this smarter and and out of that crisis we got them to back the idea of running wild and they gave us a chance just by the skin of our teeth through the grace and so when I say we stand on the shoulders of giants I could talk about people all day long and people have helped me it's another one the person helped me at nbc who said we give you one more shot don't screw it up and we started running wild and it flew and it went and you know we're now about to start season

nine of that show and that opened the door to all the netflix u-verse of wiles and the amazon shows and all the and then we went back to discovery did a whole raft of other shows for them but we owned it we We controlled it. We did it on our terms and we won. But on that list of failures that I did for our boys, I also wrote out the number of shows we've had, like Get Out Alive, that have been one season disasters. And it was something like 30 or 32 separate shows that have bombed and been canned before they've even hardly started airing and the wins have been like four or five so I said to our boys technically on paper you could say

I'm the greatest TV flop in history nobody in the history of TV has had more individual adventure shows that they own that have been canned and cancelled than me and they were laughing at this point they go yeah so you're the greatest flop in history I go well on paper yeah you know but nobody really cares about those no I don't get asked you're not even asked you didn't even know about Get Out of Life I mean and there are 31 other ones because life then focuses on the wins. But together, the wins, you've got to go through. It's one of my life ambitions to become famous enough to go on Running Wild. You'd be great. You'd be great.

Unstoppable. Thank you. One of the things that I wanted to ask you is doing that program, you've met some extraordinary people. I mean, I named some of them. Barack Obama, Channing Tatum, the lot. And I'm sure, because you're the kind of person who treats people as you find them, that I can't imagine you're that impressed

by the gloss of celebrity. But has there been a moment where you've thought, wow, is that really you, Julie Roberts? All the time. All the time. And it's certainly not like, sort of, oh, I'm too cool to be impressed by the gloss of celebrity. It's not like that at all. If anything and it's certainly not like it's certainly not like sort of oh I'm too cool to be impressed by the glass of celebrity it's not like that at all if anything it's the

opposite at the ending I'm so nervous meeting these people breathe bear breathe you know and it's got better over the years because that happens isn't it but it's still there I'm always nervous I'm nervous not just because of who they are I'm nervous because of the job and we're taking their trust in me with their life, their brand, their, you know, all of that. I've said, come on your own, leave the entourage. People are super trusting and it's a responsible job with a person's life on the end of a rope in a dynamic environment where you're winging it a lot of the time on a route. So I'm nervous of that part of it, but I'm definitely nervous because I'm thinking this person's my hero and it's happened multiple times I mean Roger Federer loved Roger always loved Roger you know I mean so many I was so nervous with the Obama one I mean we just filmed one with President

Zelensky not a Running Wild but a separate show with him you know the nerves never go I started the podcast saying it's net they never go but they are a quiet indicator that we're doing something right. And I remember running wild the early days. We'd go and meet them the day before. We'd meet at a hotel in Denver or something. And I'd go and give them some kit and give them a vague briefing about what they're doing. And I used to stand outside the hotel room, you know, whether it's sort of Channing Tatum or whoever it was you know Will Ferrell all these all these great people I kind of loved from Hollywood films and stuff and I'd almost not be

able to speak once I tapped on the door and I learned through experience don't run up the stairs and be all pumped up and ready to go and then knock on the door on the the opener and I can't breathe, which kept happening. So then I learned, breathe, calm it down. It's okay, knock on the door, we're good. And, you know, by season two, I was getting a little bit more familiar. And you learn things to help you, don't you? But the nerves never leave. They're just an indicator we're in the right space. Final question, Bear.

If you could have any figure from history on running wild, who would it be? John the Baptist. I think for me, one of the greats. Wild, lived off locusts and honey, precursor to the Almighty. I think in the Bible, Jesus goes, there's never been a prophet like this guy. The greatest of them all. Not Moses or Elijah or any of that. And I like that because he was the underdog.

He was a really wild one. Totally wild. And then after we lost his life, but was a man of principle, I think we would have got on. I don't know. I think he was just a brilliant wild one. I mean, I think he would have thought I was really soft. He was properly hard.

Amazing. I don't know. He's been a hero of mine. know so many there's so many people through history on amazing people I know it's tempting to say you know so and so but that's a great answer probably the one good for fire too all those burning bushes share the load bag wheels I've wanted you on this podcast since it started I am so grateful to you and to your wife Shara who I know was integral in persuading you because it's just so wonderful to hear you speak about things that I feel really passionately about and for you to be so open so honest so vulnerable so full of integrity has just made my day I can't thank you enough for coming on my podcast oh you're so sweet like I

said at the beginning off camera, you do an amazing job. You know, you're championing a message that failure is not the end. Failure is the beginning. And it's wonderful. And like with Shara loving you, everybody loves you.

Thank you, Bert. If you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist