How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S17, Ep8 Yomi Adegoke on social media, mental health and reality TV

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

This week's guest is the journalist and author Yomi Adegoke. You might know her from her column in the Guardian or as the co-author of the brilliant 2018 non-fiction book, Slay In Your Lane or you might follow her on Instagram for her glamorous serving of LEWKS. And even if you don't know her, you should because she's the definition of good energy and you will love this episode.Yomi joins me to talk about her failures in hodling down a 9-to-5, her experiences with depression while at university and her debut novel, The List, which has already been snapped up by HBO Max for TV adaptation.In this episode, we touch on issues of race, gender and cultural influence and, thrillingly, I get to chat about reality TV with someone who takes it as seriously as I do. Lol.Enjoy!--Signed copies of The List by Yomi Adegoke are available to pre-order here.Yomi will be in conversation with Bernardine Evaristo at the Southbank Centre in London on 20th July. Tickets are available here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodYomi Adegoke @yomi.adegoke Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned

from failure. Yomi Adegoke is a journalist and author whose work concerns race, feminism, popular culture, and their intersection. She was raised in Croydon, studied law at Warwick University and later worked at Channel 4 News before joining online magazine The Pool as a senior writer. Since then, she's written for many publications as well as having regular columns in British Vogue and in The Guardian on reality TV, my pet passion. In 2018, she co-authored the non-fiction book, Slay in Your Lane, The Black Girl Bible, after which she scooped both the Groucho Club Maverick of the Year Award and was named one of the most influential people in London by the Evening Standard. But it's her debut novel, The List, which is causing a stir right now. A month out from publication and it's already

been snapped up by HBO Max for TV adaptation. The List tells the story of high-flying journalist Ola, who discovers her fiancé Michael has been named in a Google Doc that claims to out men who perpetrate sexual assault. Yomi writes about secrets and lies in an online culture that values socio-political hashtags over the more complicated truth. It's already been heralded as provocative and wise by Bernadine Evaristo, who will be in conversation with Yomi at the South Bank Centre in London on publication day, the 20th of July. Although Yomi is still only 31 she was once asked what she would tell her younger self. Be very thick-skinned and take rejection she replied. Don't take things personally, keep going because it does pay off

and is worth it. Yomi, welcome to How to Fail. Thanks for having me, Elizabeth. I'm so excited. I'm so excited and I feel like we've been circling this idea for so long. For a while, yes. And I'm so happy that you're sitting here in front of me. I can't believe that you'd have me. I'm honoured. I'm not even just saying that. Of course, the most famous and important people in the world are constantly on here. But Yomi, you are a month out from publication. And I know

that feeling. That feeling is, for me anyway, when I have a book coming out, I have lots of anxiety spirals. I have stress dreams about walking down the street naked because I worry that I've exposed some terrible truth. How are you doing? Oh my my god thank you for asking Elizabeth thank you for asking I feel like I'm supposed to say that I'm super excited and raring to go and I am and that's definitely part of it but as you mentioned the TV rights have been picked up it has been causing quite a stir and it's not yet out so whilst that is like the dream it's also really anxiety inducing because I'm like oh my god I know it sounds terrible to say but I'm just like shit I hope it's as good as everyone is expecting it to be because it feels like quite a bit of pressure and I'm super super excited but

I'm always saying I'm not someone who necessarily reads hyped books and I take a while I'm one of those people that's like I'll come back to that next year when it's all sort of died down and I kept saying to my friends god would I pick up my own book amidst all the hype I don't know but yeah I'm so excited but also yeah definitely definitely had a couple of stress dreams clothes on for now but we'll see we'll see how we get a week before publication so that quote that I ended on that idea of being thick-skinned Are you there yet? And if so, can you tell me your secrets? Oh my God. How do you deal with criticism? How are you armoring yourself against people's perceptions?

Because I'm sure it will be rave reviews. But do you have a strategy for coping with other people's perceptions? Oh, certainly. Avoid, avoid, avoid. Honest, honestly. So I have been writing on the internet for over 10 years. I started out as a blogger. I've written for various publications and started quite young.

Some of them I was writing whilst I was at university. And the landscape was quite different. And I think especially writing about, I'm sure you'll know, writing about feminism, writing about women's issues, writing about race, writing about these things back in the day wasn't necessarily, I'm not saying that it's, you about these things back in the day wasn't necessarily I'm not saying that it's you know a walk in the park now but it's different let's say I'd say at least there's an appetite even from commissioners to hear about it whereas back then certainly when I was writing about race it was it was very difficult and it came with a lot of

commentary let's say and at times yeah abuse I remember constantly reading comments and gosh I thought I was going to say it was when Twitter was the wild west but I feel like we're back to a wild west now so I receive all kinds of messages on there and then one day I just sort of thought why am I engaging with this again I don't I don't even know these people it's not because I'm putting something out that I'm then obliged to hear what's said about it I kind of decided that the criticism I'd engage in would be even when Selenia Lane came out book reviews friends people who I respected peers because not just friends because obviously they're going to be like everything you do is amazing decide what noise

was and tune it out and so for for instance, things like Goodreads, I've got a block on that. I use Twitter in a very specific way. I've never, I don't think I've had my DMs open for about nine years. It's just a lot harder for me to come across that stuff. And that's not to say I don't engage in criticism. I think it's really important to, I just think that I'm cautious of who it comes from. So every review that the list gets in an actual paper, I'll read anyone who's written a thoughtful blog post, absolutely if it's sort of you know screed in a comment section yes no thanks I'm gonna ignore it yeah there's a difference between feedback constructive feedback from someone who wants the best for you absolutely and anonymous trolling absolutely I've got to the stage where I don't read anything I'm like I just want to

insulate myself and exist in a little bubble where I understand who the people are that I go to for that constructive feedback and the rest of it but you've learned that 13 years ahead of where I am so congrats I'm the hard way but I think what you're saying isn't necessarily a bad thing because people can then say, oh, you know, you're insulating yourself. What about feedback that you need to receive? As you said, you've decided whose feedback is worth listening to, but also it works both ways. So when it comes to criticism, I try to tune out the noise. It's the same for compliments. So when people on Instagram, sometimes you, you know, you open your Instagram or you open your social media and it's just loads and loads of people saying incredible stuff which is amazing but then that can also

distort your view of yourself and your work and I've very much lived by you know if you live by somebody's compliments you'll die by their criticism and the idea that I need to take criticism from certain people with a pinch of salt but I also need to take gushing and lovins and all that kind of stuff with a pinch of salt also otherwise my head would just explode do you know something I think I have to kind of temper both ways so I think that the whole kind of bubble and just kind of living in this suspended state of reality where you don't listen to much is actually kind of a good thing I think I think it insulates you from a lot well one of the things that I really really hadn't expected to find in the list in the best possible way because I knew it was going to be pacey and you structure it like a thriller no honestly like you do a

terrific job it's so meaty I hate that word do you know what I mean like Bernadine's right it is provocative it takes on some very very interesting topics and you write about them with real nuance so there is no binary in many ways there is no right and no wrong we are constantly asked as the reader to keep asking ourselves the questions that the characters are which I thought was super engaging and there is so much to talk about as I mentioned in the introduction it sort of takes on the idea of me too and the idea of movements that are spread like wildfire on the internet possibly without enough questions being asked and Ola is confronted with the fact that her fiancé is named on this list, but she loves him. Right.

And I wondered how important it was for you to look at the issue of men being outed, believing women, but also the specific situation for black men often being accused of crimes that they never committed. Thank you for picking up on that. Well, thank you for writing about it. Thank you. I'm just like you operative word when it comes to me trying to talk about this book I really wanted to have a character that could very easily have done the things that he was accused of by virtue of you know mistakes that he's made in his past by virtue of the industry he's in and the way that the industry often sort of not even necessarily coddles but hides obscures

the crimes of men and allows them to sort of go on and live their lives without issue. But I also wanted to really bring to the fore the fact that, you know, Michael as a character is a working class black man, and his relationship with the police is therefore different, with certain institutions and systems is therefore different. There's definitely a kind of, not implicit I'd say, there's a sort of expected or suspected like inherent guilt often with black men especially in America but I think that's also something that has happened in the UK and does happen in the UK and is very much obscured because I think we think that we are sort of further along with racial relations than we necessarily are but I think I just wanted the whole conversation around Me Too. And because I always say I could have written this about any social justice movement that's sort of taken place on the internet.

I wanted it to be very, very critical of not the movements themselves, but the way that they unfold online. And I always say that the list is first and foremostly a book about the internet because I feel like I could have rather than it being something as you know explosive as an anonymous list of male abusers it could have been a trip advisor review that kind of followed the same storyline again someone putting something out there let's even say like for instance goodreads and you can write a review about a book you haven't read you can review a hotel that you've never stayed out on the internet so what happens when you have anonymity and human nature and then something as powerful as the internet and you also have systems that fail women

when they do attempt to report various abuses and it's kind of this you know very toxic cocktail of lots of injustices playing out at the same time and the internet essentially being used to try and right those wrongs but what happens when i suppose this is why human nature comes into it what happens when you've got real people behind those screens that may use something as powerful as that for their own nefarious purposes and that's such a roundabout way no no it's a brilliant answer and also you have to be quite careful what you say, because there is a twist. It's so easy to spoil. Yes, there's so many twists. Yes, so many.

But there's one in particular, which I just thought was so clever and brave in terms of how you end the book. But that's all I'm going to say. Thank you. The other thing that I really enjoyed, amongst many things. What is this going to be?

That giggle. Well, because, albeit you're a decade younger than I am, but I feel like we've had similar experiences in media yes in many ways and the skewering of like a certain type of media girl boss yeah I could not get enough of did you have fun doing that I had so much fun with that character Frankie I think she's actually my favorite character yeah um she was my favorite character to write and as you said everything's supposed to be quite gray and nuanced so I didn't want to write her as a kind of like caricature cartoonish villain I actually wanted her to be kind of sympathetic

and humorous in ways but I had so much fun with that I also really like the deputy political editor at the observer character I thought that was really smart as well thank you very much yeah that's very heavily based on people that I've met and I respect and in terms of that character you know that it's a real kind of they're in a very gray area in terms of trying to do what they think is right yes but simultaneously maybe not applying the ethics and the codes of journalism that they would normally in their job yeah whilst trying to I suppose speak truth to power and give women a voice it's again yeah quite a nuanced one I think you grew up in Croydon Croydon is where you unveiled the the list cover and I think you're brilliant at dialogue which is why I can totally see it on tv

and there's a certain kind of dialogue where I felt this is just totally as it is and so on point and I really enjoyed being an eavesdropper into that thank you and I wanted to ask you possibly quite an impossible question but how much do you think growing up in Croydon has shaped your writing oh my god that's such an excellent question potentially impossible I'm gonna definitely give that a go I think growing up in Croydon potentially shaped my writing because actually no I would say it did shape my writing in quite a heavy way because I'd say that I haven't seen many characters from that area depicted on screen unless it's like sort of in a caricature way for instance and I think that even though Ola isn't from Croydon she's spiritually from Croydon she's from Streatham which is up the

road and she's like lives in Tooting and I really wanted to kind of depict I suppose people that I know from Croydon in South London and I think depicting them outside of I suppose stereotype outside of expectation and just right people I always say that even though you know my friends have read it and they're like they kind of get to the end and they're disappointed like that's not me I thought I was gonna be in this wait a minute Ruth's not based on me and I'm like no but it's been because I've taken elements of lots of people I know and Croydon is such a vibrant area I always say it's the capital of South London lots of people say that it's very much its own world because we've kind of been told it's not in London even though it is so we've kind of like I

think got our own sort of yeah world there and I think when I think of the people that you know I went to school with and that I've grown up with it's just a very real particular type of person I think very distinct very South London person that I wanted to kind of write about so yeah and we've got our like Freud legends like Kate Moss and like Stormzy and stuff and I think I'm always kind of trying to like put Freud on the map even if I'm not writing about it I'm like trying to write like a South London character that could be from there and Naomi Campbell's from Streatham isn't she? She is from Streatham yes she went to Dunraven which is like a complete notorious school like crazy anecdote i want to ask you a little bit about your creative influences before we

get on to your failures because i'm hoping one of them is the real housewives what are your creative influences and is reality tv one of them you know what i think that is why we actually first bonded because you are such a reality TV expert as I am. Thank you. I love that because that was such a genuine like, thank you. I thought you were going to say obsessive. I was like, no, I'm an expert. No, no, you know your shit. Like you actually know what you're talking about. I love reality TV and I love that you love it non-ironically.

Like it's not this like guilty pleasure, like you genuinely love it. And I really, really do love reality TV because I really do think you know I write a reality tv column at the guardian and I always say when I'm trying to explain it to people and still make sure they take me seriously I'm always like you know it's kind of like an anthropological look at reality tv. Oh wait that's why you always say that. You know it's about the microcosm of what you know it says about society but I genuinely do think that I think reality tv is so good I think at telling us about society and about ourselves and I was an early adopter of love island I watched it I think the first series in 2015 real housewives for my sins is actually one of the ones that like

I only dip the toe in everyone gets really angry at me because they're like how could you possibly call yourself a reality tv expert and not watch Real Housewives like religiously? It does inspire my writing in many ways just because it's about what's real. And obviously it's not asterisk because it's about, you know, like it's heavily produced and things are very much curated. But I just love people. And I think reality TV is about people and affairs and scandals. And emotions. And emotions, yeah.

The setup might be produced, but the emotions generally are real exactly right what about other creative influences how much does music play because you include a lot of music in the list I do yeah I used to be a music journalist that was kind of how I got started so yeah music is a very very big inspiration for sure that's kind of how I got started out and even though I have absolutely no music ability I think it's kind of how I got started out and even though I have absolutely no music ability I think it's one of those things that I listen to rather and watch other people sort of like creating beautiful music and it really inspires me now you mentioned like gosh you have a lot of music in there that's something that I very much realized like I think

on my like hundredth millionth read of it and I was like wow this has got a proper like soundtrack to it there's a lot of music because I think it is that thing of you know how a fragrance can really take you back to a particular time when I hear like Rihanna's work featuring Drake I am just transported to 2016 like and just little things like that so I felt that I was really trying to get a sense of I think time in the list and I really wanted it to be clear that you know it was pre-covid because it's kind of that time that's so close to now but so much has happened since then so I really wanted it to be that when people are reading it they're very like aware that this was like before the many life-changing things that have happened like globally in the last three years so yeah I think music for me really gives a sense of place and time which inspires me yeah okay who's on your spotify most played whiz kid okay

no like no thought i'm like whiz kid it's just always been whiz kid for the past decade of my life yeah let's get on to your failures now so your first one is uni yes tell us what happened. Oh, how long have you got? 40 minutes. You might honestly be here forever. Well, I was one of those kids at school that didn't necessarily try particularly hard, but I think there were different types of intelligence, right? And I think the way school works, it is very much geared to a very specific type of intelligence. And I think I lucked out in terms of having that type which is like I could like cram and I could like revise a day before something and remember everything and then vomit it out in an essay and do really well but I don't

think I was probably certainly not in secondary school as academically gifted across the board as it was assumed in my school as well they also had this assumption that like if you were good at like English and history and things with words that you're probably quite smart in science as well and and maths and I was horrendous at maths horrendous at science but managed to kind of blag my way to getting decent like GCSEs very good in like certain subjects in which I excelled but blagged across the board then I got to uni and you just couldn't blag you just couldn't it was like the jump was so extreme the fact that I even didn't mention college just shows that for me it was very much an extension of secondary school same thing even easier because it was like oh

god I've only got like three subjects now one of them's drawing like I love art I like was doing fine art and art something I had a natural aptitude for so it didn't feel like work it felt like it was a hobby for me so then I got to uni and kind of went in with that exact same attitude and then it was like okay here's law which I genuinely thought was going to be I always say I thought it was gonna be Alan McBeal I thought I was gonna be in like a skirt suit arguing looking cute whilst doing it and then I got there and it was like okay so here's taught law and obit addicta and suddenly there was latin I was like what the jump was enormous also I don't have hugely strict parents but I hadn't ever like I didn't even have my own room before so was like wow you hadn't had your own room never you've been sharing with your sister I've been sharing with my at one firstly I

used to share with it was me and both my who are my best friends. So that was actually really nice. And then it was me and my little sister, who's two years younger than me. And then it was uni and it was just me. And I was like, hang on a minute. Like, it was just a level of freedom I'd never experienced before. I'd only ever lived in Croydon. So I was like, wow, I'm now in Warwick's in Coventry, right? And I was like, oh, it's really leafy. There were all these people from across the world all these international students i was like this is wow this is amazing so i just kind of went full throttle like party girl just went i'd always liked i'd always liked a bit of a party but and just didn't even remember that i was there to study that's paired with the fact that like there was a huge academic leap so I'd also discovered binge drinking at the same time as like not understanding any, like missing all my lectures that I didn't understand anyway.

So yeah, that culminated in me failing my first year at uni after getting into a really good uni that I'd really wanted to get into quite easily, but like failed instantly. And how did that feel I suppose I want to ask because you mentioned that your parents weren't particularly strict no but was there a sense that they had high hopes for you given that you had got to university yeah my parents I should actually clarify weren't strict only because I was getting good grades so they were so they are so academically focused so I used to like go out and like go raving and like come back at like four and they were like that's fine as long as you did your homework I was like yeah I did my homework and they're like cool like that's fine like you can live your life and it was because I was doing quite well at school

that I was then given like freedom to like go out with my friends and party and all the stuff at college. So they had very high expectations of me. But yeah, I felt fine, unfortunately, originally, because this was first year. So I was like, oh, I will just dip it a second year. That's fine. And I didn't have to tell my parents. So I was like, oh, great. I'll just fix everything second year, which of course I didn't. Okay. And in your second year, the way that you put it to me, you expressed it as an equation, party animal plus depression equaled a 2-2 in your second year. Bless you. That was such an unhinged email.

I know. No, it wasn't. It was actually super helpful for me. Tell us about that experience of depression. Yeah. So I was having a great time initially I mean I met I've always said my Elizabeth because of course you're you're the OG Elizabeth my Elizabeth who I call Polly Elizabeth if you've ever been her name co-author of Slaying Your Lane and we were

like thick as thieves having a great time we both failed our first year together so we were fine and then I don't know I think the pressure of sort of academic work also being like the whole fish out of water thing was quite fun at times because it was like everyone was super posh and white and I was really different but I was having a great time so I was like oh this is a whole new world but then I really started to just miss things that like made home home and I mean I can't cook for shit so I was kind of like oh I want jollof rice I want like African food I want to like be able to this when I had hair go to hair shops and I want to be around my friends that I grew up with and I think I just started to feel quite disconnected and then so suddenly I was like wow I don't feel good I'm like really sad

but it was really difficult because I thought that depression had to be like brought on by something by some sort of traumatic incident or have some sort of at least inciting incident and it just felt like one day I just was depressed and I was like I've been in this bed for a long time but it's just been like god I think American dad I don't know how many seasons it had then but I remember like I'd like watched from like one to like maybe seven and I was like wow how many days is it like you know the days just go by in this haze of just like tv and like fast food and I just like wasn't leaving bed and I was quite prone to like missing lectures anyway but it was before some that kind of fun cheeky like oh I don't care about work way and then it was like no I actually don't want to get out of bed but it was very sudden so I just kind of went into myself and was honestly confused because I was like I didn't identify as a depression for a really long time because I was like what have I got to be

depressed about everything's fine do you know I mean I'm at a great uni I've got these great friends so I didn't understand it so I didn't really do anything about it until I kind of had no choice and then what did you do about it well I, I think, oh my God, the most insane story. Well, I wasn't really leaving my house much. And I had this brilliant friend, Adwoa, who I don't even know if I'd articulated what I was feeling. But I remember she like came to my house with all this like food and all this like stuff. And she just kind of like sat with me, which was really nice. And I was still, again, very like confused.

And I kind of felt like, me, which was really nice. And I was still, again, very like confused. And I kind of felt like, wow, I really appreciate this gesture, but why do I almost feel like someone's died? Like, you know, it's like you go to someone's house, you like bake them like something or bring them flowers. And I felt like, oh, she's doing this lovely thing for me, but I don't even know why I need it because I know I've been in bed for a long time, but surely I'm fine. And I'll never forget i was watching shutter island on

yeah i was pirating okay pirating shutter island years ago it was such a good film and i was trying to watch it on like one of these like one two three illegal movies dot uk like websites i remember it wasn't loading so i remember like i kept trying to put the capture in and like it was just not working and then the next time I refreshed I shit you not it literally said this too shall pass which was so bizarre to me because like captures normally like seven six q1 you know I was like what but also what was so weird is my dad had like spoken about that like you know the whole proverb of you know the good times pass the bad times pass and he specifically told me like when you feel down like that's what you should cling to so when I saw it I remember thinking like I literally was like looking side side like okay when's Ashton Kutcher gonna like show my age

when's Ashton Kutcher gonna jump out and be like punked I was like this is so random and then I kind of thought well well, why is this speaking to me so intensely if there's nothing to pass? Clearly there's something that needs to pass. I'm clearly feeling pretty shitty. That was a real moment. And I remember speaking to my uni and like immediately being like, can I get therapy? And they gave me like three therapy sessions for free. And then during the course of those like conversations with a brilliant therapist who was a white man but like had background talking to and like working with people from diverse backgrounds so sort of understood things like familial pressure and the

need for me to like do well at uni and throughout that conversation I decided to take a year out which now I look back on it it seems like I'm very glad I did it, but I can't believe I did it because I know how much I wanted to do well at uni, but I took a year out and it was very much needed, but very scary at the time. I think that is one of the best, most accurate descriptions of that kind of depression that I've ever heard. Oh, thank you. Because some depression can be experienced as numbness where you're not sure what it is but you're still yourself aren't you? Like it's that kind of thing yeah and that must have been really scary. So scary. Did you go

back home? I went back home and I think it was very scary for my parents because I've always been like super chipper like I'm one of those friends where when I'm having a bad day it makes everyone awkward I don't know if you've got that thing where it's like because you're like the really like bubbly one when everyone's like you okay and you're like yeah I'm fine they're like oh because it's like they're not used to it so I think it made everybody kind of like oh like feel away because they weren't used to me being like that because I was such a like happy chipper person and then it felt harder because I couldn't articulate myself so then I felt like I didn't necessarily feel as supported as I wanted to but I don't hold it against anyone because

everyone's asking me if I'm fine and I'm like yeah that's why I really appreciated Adwoa to this day who I've actually got in my acknowledgements even though like we don't see each other as much but because I just remember feeling incredibly seen because I'd never really articulated to anybody what was going on because I didn't know and she just kind of instinctively I feel knew something was up and like came to my aid so I went back home I was back in my childhood bedroom and it was back to like rules not rules but being like accountable to my parents and stuff like that and yeah it was it felt like regressive because everyone was graduating and I just got a third my second year so I was like oh my god it's getting worse I find this so I'm so glad that you're speaking about it thank you because it's very courageous to revisit something that I

imagine is still felt on some cellular like muscle memory level but the interesting thing is is that you took this year out you started a magazine yes nbd as you do on it and then you came back to do a third year and you did external modules that you actually liked and you graduated with a 2.1 overall yes so for a lot of people they would think well I got a really good degree from a really good university but for you it still feels like a failure to the extent that you've chosen it as one of your yes so I started a magazine because I needed something to do and I had a friend Tanika also in the acknowledgments for the same reason because we met at uni and I was kind of like restless and I think there's a definitely like child of immigrant mentality

where it's like you can be like in the throes of depression but because you've still got your arms and legs and you're like you know you're breathing're kind of like, I've got to be productive. Everyone else is graduating. And she'd said, you know, I'd started a blog around that, like maybe a year before. And she was like, you know, if you want to start writing,

in fact, I was trying to pitch to magazines. And this was, as I said, when writing about race and feminism and stuff, wasn't quite as like in vogue as it is now. So I was pitching to places and no one was taking my commissions and she was like why don't you start your own magazines and that's how I started birthday magazine which was like a very short-lived but like magazine aimed at like young black girls

I used to give out in local hair shops in South London so I felt like it was productive and I really look back at it as a really really useful. I wouldn't have learned things about myself had I not gone through that period. But I guess I see it as a failure in some ways, because I don't know. I think that I kind of, maybe on some level, did want to do the typical like first year, second year, third year. I guess my view on failure is that I can see something as a failure and still see it as a win mutually like I'm glad that it was a failure if that makes sense because all my friends graduated and I was watching them in their like you know with their little hats and their gowns and I was like a year late and lots of good came from that I like met like a boyfriend I was with

for a long time and I'm still friends with and I made all these new friends but I think on some level I did want to do it in those three years and I guess on another level entirely I'm really glad I studied law because it's helped me think in a different way and I don't regret anything and I have no regrets in my life but a part of me thinks gosh a lot of stuff could have probably been avoided if I'd have studied English literature or studied something I liked. I bet you're great with contracts though. I'm horrendous at contracts Elizabeth and that is why it's a failure because I am terrible at contracts. So bad at contracts. That's why I got my third. Peyton it's happening. We're finally being recognized for being very online. It's about damn time.

I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris. And me, Peyton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This.

As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that,

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to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Your second failure is, as you describe it, a nine to five in journalism. And this is a specific time in your life where you've referenced the fact that growing up with financial instability sort of informed some of your life choices and this is sort of what happened here isn't it so explain to us why you chose this again I see like failures in a way of like I can consider it a failure but I still think it was for the best certainly right as we do yeah exactly I'm on the right I'm on the right I'm a monk preaching to the choir I've never had a nine-to-five in journalism that's lasted more than like two and a half years and every time

it's either like ended in like redundancy or the like company collapsing I've never just like had a normal nine-to-five in journalism so when I left uni the goal the absolute pot of gold at the end of every wannabe journalist rainbow is was and maybe yes still is like a stable staff job my god so when I got my first staff job at ITN I could not believe it especially because I'd never done an NCJ I like didn't study journalism and my experience was very much like work experience and a blog. So, and a magazine that like I edited myself. So I couldn't believe I got a staff job and it was just so coveted. And I felt so important.

And I just felt like it was amazing. And it was very short lived because basically ITN had set up what was, I think at the time we were like, it's going to rival Buzzfeed. And it was supposed to be like a kind of like news site that was quite like young and aimed at millennials gosh to say like young and aimed at millennials now when there's like a whole gen z and it was so exciting and honestly one of the best teams I've ever worked with everyone was phenomenal I had an editor that like was quite young but really took like risks because I remember writing this listicle called like things you only know if you grew up in ends and it was very much about like inner city working class like

black culture and it was like all these things that like me and my friends had grown up around but your average person didn't know and he was like I don't have a clue what this means but I'll commission this and I felt really trusted and then it was like okay this doesn't exist anymore this was kind of I think god we're all so used to it now but this was like the first round of kind of like when companies used to just explode media companies so I was really lucky and worked at grazing road so channel four was just above and my ex-boss now friend John Lawrence at channel four had like seen my work downstairs at the ITN venture asked me to work at channel 4 News. Things have gone from good to best. Like obviously I was miserable because I'd been made redundant, but now I'm

working at Channel 4 News, which was amazing. But I just wasn't, honestly, I can say at hand on heart, no humility. I was not cut out for that job. I can say that now, like God bless John for taking a punt on me, but it was like really serious hard news of course i was like a multimedia producer and i was working online and i don't have any technical ability whatsoever i literally am that person like trying to set up a zoom call and it's like your mic's off your camera's off like that's me so i was like then having to try and like cut up and subtitle and edit videos it was a nightmare i was so bad horrendous and i wasn't across the news cycle because i was watching love island i could tell you everything that was happening in a way in a way is being across the news cycle but not the kind that that's why we're i know i see yeah you get it i see we

see each other in the words of nini me but um like i was across like pop culture and i was talking on this rubbish about like TV. And I could tell you anything that was happening in any like reality show or any show. But I didn't know what was happening in the news cycle, which led to me once. I used to work on the newsletter sometimes. And I remember I was like so on autopilot that like I had put news, I think honestly from like a month before. Bear in mind, this is like I was working at Channel 4 News during Brexit Trump serious world like events had taken place I like put in news from like a month ago you send out like a dummy kind of um newsletter before you the real one and

you sent it out across the whole office and everyone was like this is from Trump's been elected now you're talking about his campaign I I was like, oh, oops. And it was so humiliating. And basically John was like, you know, he really did. At this time, me and Elizabeth had got the book deal for Selenio Lane. But again, financial stuff. I really wanted to keep the job. I really had that kind of pressure for myself of like, you need a stable media job. So John was trying to keep me on.

I will never forget. He said, I've got this incredible black woman I know that's in the media I'm going to introduce you to her and she'll show you the ropes and you know kind of show you the virtues of being here the woman was a fool hush yeah it was a fool that's how I met her we went for coffee and her job was supposed to be that she kind of was meant to say like yeah this is why you should stay and literally we sat down and immediately she was like you should leave she was like go for it you're young you've got a book deal she was just like leave and I was like oh but I was like you know but I had such imposter syndrome and I was so concerned like what if the book doesn't sell and all these things and I was so nervous and I just didn't want to leave because I was like I

just need the money and she was just like look you've got the advance you've got like she was just so supportive and she was like I really think you should leave like it's up to you but she was like John's gonna kill me but you should leave and then I left and then I got imposter syndrome again so I got another job like immediately afterwards and then had to leave that you got another job on an online magazine yes and my understanding is that you were not allowed unpaid leave to work on and promote your book right so I got a dream job as a staff writer again I was like you know what channel four didn't work because I wasn't supposed to do multimedia that was fair enough whereas with this I was like oh my god this is writing this I can

write about pop culture I can write about opinions I was like this is perfect but then slaying your lane the book that obviously i wrote with my best friend and we were doing all these events and we're doing all this stuff and it took off in a way that we didn't expect i must say you were very much an earlier doctor oh i will never forget that we saw you in the waterstones remember and you looked so you were slaying like you were in this like lovely dress and you had these sunglasses and your hair was longer. And we were like, who is that? She's fab.

And you were like, hi girls. I'll never forget that. You were so nice. You were so nice. Tottenham Court Road. I remember it so well. And I remember that dress.

I remember the sunnies, man. Mate, it was such a sub. But I remember we were like, oh my God, she was amazing. And Naomi was like, that's Elizabeth. And then we were like Googling, oh my God, she's fucking huge.

What? She's amazing. Anyway. That book was amazing and you two did an that's elizabeth and then we were like googled oh my god she's fucking huge what she's amazing um anyway that was amazing and you two did an amazing job oh thank you five years soon i can't believe it that man i can't believe it but the energy and insight that you bring are so precious and so thank you thank you no honestly we're really proud of it and we didn't expect that's the thing that's why like i remember all the people that kind of talked to it early because it was a different time el like yeah we had the idea in 2016 2018 we're talking pre black squares on Instagram it wasn't the thing to necessarily so I remember when people like really supported it because it wasn't necessarily fashionable it was kind of putting

your head above the parapet a bit back then so we were shocked that it had really spoken to people so we were like god what, what do we do? Elizabeth was working in a bank in central London as a marketing manager. And I was now at an online magazine and I was like, what are we going to do? Like, how do we, how do we navigate this? And we were, oh my gosh, like I used to think really arrogantly, like burnout was like almost made up. Like, oh yeah, sure. Sure you're burnt out.

But are you really burnt out? Come on. You just need to like, yeah. Like I burnt out but are you really burnt out come on you just need to like yeah like oh my god so toxic like reproducing the exact same things I was like are you really burnt out but I remember we were dying because we literally were like obviously we share a super publicist in Miami Manchin phenomenal woman so she was getting us gigs press everything so we were so shocked because we thought it's not gonna have that appeal across the board but it did so we were like dying and I was like you know what I have to leave even though I enjoyed the job so I asked for an unpaid sabbatical I'd only been there nine months

but like by their own admission I'd brought quite a lot to the site and they said I couldn't and I was like god even taking an unpaid sabbatical wasn't ideal. But I was like, I want to keep the job. As you can see, there's like that theme of just like security, stability, man. Like I really couldn't fall back on the bank of mum and dad at all. So I was like, oh my God, what am I going to do? And again, this was more like, this was, I didn't have a few of us this time to like come and say quit again. This was me really like, oh my God, I don't know what to do.

Do I just not do the events but also you're you know I've got a co-author who's my best friend who I lived with at that point she used to live with me and my mum and we all and my sister we all lived in the same house we really believed in this thing we're really accountable because we're like with each other all the time and I was like I have to kind of show up in the same way she is so I can't remember whether Elizabeth left first but either way I ended up leaving this time I was not I wasn't invigorated um by a best-selling author that my boss had airdropped to tell me to leave this was just like miserable because I was like oh my god I'm never gonna find another staff

job and then it ended up of course as every media organization does sadly these days it went bust but I'd been freelance for a while at that point. And I kind of never looked back. Like, I was very nervous at the start. Freelancing's hard. But once I got into the swing of things, yeah, I can't actually imagine now, like, going back to full time. It's more than full time. I'm sure you know.

But I can't imagine actually going back to a staff role. It's so interesting when a choice like that is made for you. Yes. And I had a similar experience with The Observer and I was there for eight years. And then suddenly I was like, I asked to go on contract from being on staff because I wanted to go and live in LA.

And they said no, even though it would have saved them money. And it's that moment of like, oh, this place is not looking out for me in the way that I naively and foolishly have been thinking that they would yeah it's quite a bitter disappointment it is but I wonder if it's even more so for you if you feel that you are working in a media landscape that isn't back then was absolutely not representative of your lived experience. Like, did you feel unseen? Oh my God, totally.

I felt so like, because I felt as well, like obviously what me and Elizabeth were trying to do was write this book that was about, we wanted a book that was going to, you know, sort of empower black women. And we always would say it's not, you know, self-help book because you can't slay your way out of systemic racism,

but we wanted this guide to life. And all these black women were kind of like really excited about it. would say it's not you know self-help book because you can't slay your way out of systemic racism but we wanted this guy to life and all these black women were kind of like really excited about it and we wanted to meet those people we wanted to talk to them and we wanted to meet the white people that were like yeah I didn't know any of this but like blah blah blah and we wanted to meet all the people that had read it and I felt that that was obviously hugely important but also the work I was doing at this magazine was like very much an extension of the same thing I was writing about stuff that I wasn't really seeing anywhere else and I felt like it was really important and I obviously for selfish reasons I needed to get paid I loved writing but also there was a part of me that felt like wow

me stepping away from this like back then you could literally count like how many black female columnists or like regular like journalists they were especially a staff oh my god like in terms of freelancing there were a few but like in terms of like an actual consistent position being able to shape the culture and the conversation at a place it was really rare so I felt really really torn but as you said I did feel really unseen because I also felt like my gosh like I've been commended for what I'm doing in this place and they're saying that like I'm really useful, but then I wanted three months or something.

And they were just like, well, there was just no flexibility. My perception of you is that you're someone who thrives on truth. Oh gosh. You need clarity. I love, oh my gosh. You can just see, I'm like, oh my God, music to my ears. Like, honestly, I can hear the angels sing. Yes, clarity in every area of my life

I need to know what I'm doing I need to understand and even if they'd have said I couldn't have the sabbatical if they'd have been clear as to why fine but it's because it was kind of like well you just can't that was like painful because I like to understand you know like it's yeah I do love clarity before we get on to your failure, does that mean boundaries are very important to you? Yes. Oh my God. Hugely. Hugely. How good are you at a boundary? Phenomenal. Listen, I, lots of things I'm not good at, but boundaries, I'm very good at maintaining my

boundaries for sure. I feel like I've had no choice because I love people, as I say, and I really am one of those people I am that drunk girl on the toilets that's like being everyone's friends I love people I think I learned that quite early because I'm like that I know how easy it is for that yeah maybe potentially taking a part in a job and that whole my kindness is mistaken for weakness all that kind of stuff like yeah I think you know there's truth in it as corny as it sounds and I think it's just meant that like I've got such a phenomenal group of friends like if I do cry on this podcast it'll be talking about my friends we're talking about my like best friends my sisters I have a phenomenal family

and it means that I'm very secure in their love and they've made me secure in who I am and it means that I am so confident in that group of people that I have in my life that it means that anyone that's not within that I am quite happy to like put boundaries up I don't like to try and put walls up but boundaries yes I think it's really important to respect like your personal space and it's why even when it comes to things online like the people I love and the things I love are so sacred to me that like if they don't want to like be part of that world that's totally fine for me and I'm like you know I put a picture up of my gorgeous gorgeous godson the other day and like I asked his mom he's been my best friend for 20 years are you okay with that and she was really like oh of course like he's gorgeous put him up

there and I was like I just want to make sure because you guys really matter to me like and you didn't ask to necessarily have a level of visibility and I feel like I'm very very very boundary orientated I think especially because like things like, for instance, on like the online world, I'm not totally enamored with it. I don't really love it. I use it a lot for work, but as people always say, when they follow me on Instagram, especially people I've met, like in the toilets of a club or people I've met on holiday, they kind of like, whoa, oh wow. Like your Instagram is really like something it's really curated. And I'm like, it's so curated because it's so intentional

I feel like I don't owe people a certain level of intimacy because loads of things in my life are quite private and important to me so the boundaries on my social media are like gowns beautiful gowns here she is in another outfit here she's in another outfit because for me it's about that boundary of like my personal life my private life and yeah just the minute like someone oversteps a line for me it's just yeah boundaries up because that's so I really appreciate that and I appreciate the insta content as well but when you said earlier you did because you did a level art and I know you're you're an incredible artist I've seen some of your work and actually your instagram tiles are sort of mini works of art in many ways aren't they but that makes total sense that there are sort of two ways of handling social media and one is

well there are many ways of handling it yeah but one of the current trends is to be extremely quote-unquote authentic and right oh I'm fake as hell on this yeah and actually you're fake as hell because you're protecting your authenticity which I think is so fascinating I always say that like it's one facet of myself which is like I'm always like oh my god I'm so fake on Instagram but you know what it's not like I wasn't at this event and it's not like I'm editing my pictures it's just this is one side of a very complicated life and I mean the things that you know that like lots of people don't and for me it's really important again all of it comes down to my love of my friends and my family I like honestly could cry speaking about them they're just so phenomenal I'm so supported that

a it makes it really easy to draw those lines because I'm like okay I've drawn this line I still have the amazing people in my life and that doesn't change but also it's partly wanting to protect them and protect their interests and make sure that like I'm never doing anything that kind of puts anyone I love in like harm's way in any way but yeah as I said it's an extension of my reality but there's all this other stuff I'm like constantly like in the throes of like mental breakdowns and like oh my god like having some sort of crisis and I'm like it's just not necessarily someone's business just because they happen to press follow I'm like it's just not necessarily someone's business just because they happen to press follow i'm like why the hell does that mean i owe you anything

you're protecting your truth by not sharing all of it yeah okay your final failure is your first foray into tv this experience sounds horrible and it starts with you in 2020 being commissioned to do a documentary with a big tv channel yes so this is around the time of the second wave of black lives matter yes george floyd has been murdered the black squares are appearing on instagram right okay so so so so it was basically like lockdown i think the first lockdown had happened or was happening everything was really really manic and terrible as it was for everybody and then I got this incredible opportunity I'd always wanted to do a documentary before so I was like wow things are looking up I was really excited an inaugural conversation

had happened like maybe like a year before and I just thought you know how tv is tv is a different world so I was like oh okay I'd love for this to come off but it probably won't then it was yes that was the timeline. It was initial conversation, didn't really care much. Then the tragic passing of George Floyd. And it was very much like, this was a documentary that was, it was a black documentary for like a bit of phrases and it had black themes.

It was about black people. And it was like, well, I'm assuming the thinking of the channel was, oh, well, this is like a black show and an idea by a black person. And this was the time when I assumed like lots, not assumed, lots of brands were trying to sort of like show, you know, that they cared about diversity and black lives. So I got a commission and it all happened really quickly. I was younger than I am now. And I was agentless at the time. I didn't even have a literary agent at the time because I was in between agents so I was not really thinking I was just so excited to have that opportunity and didn't really think of the this will prove how bad I am with contracts because

didn't even didn't even ask for a contract Elizabeth didn't even have one yeah honestly wasn't thinking about any of this because I was just so excited and also like the person who'd asked me to do it I knew them so I was like oh this is great and had no prior experience so didn't know when the contract I thought oh it's been a couple months I don't have a contract that's probably normal but I'd been introduced to a production company I didn't know what chemistry meet was so I didn't have one it was like here's your production company again I thought that's probably normal didn't realize that you're meant to often like meet with the multiple production companies and I was given a director same thing and just didn't ask any questions because I now again this was a big failure because I was like I didn't ask

a single question so I just thought this is normal and was so and the tv industry so opaque that I didn't really have many people to ask about it so yeah was excited and didn't realize what was to come at all and what did happen so I was maybe a month in two months in I started to have this like you know that niggling feeling of maybe something's not right things like you know I could feel my grip on what was absolutely 100% my IP like loosening like it was very much meetings and conversations happening without me, decisions being made without me. I think the director that they brought on,

they'd essentially told him that this was his project because I was quite young and agent-ness. That the first real red flag was when one of the people working on the project, when I sent over some concerns, I thought, you know, I like clarity. So I sent a really long email just saying, hey, just wondering, just checking that everything's okay, because I wanted to be slightly more involved in this. And the response came, oh, I thought you were a researcher.

And I was like, because bear in mind, I'd sent pages of research, passages of contacts, all these things. And the response was, I thought you were a researcher. And immediately my stomach just dropped because I was like okay something has gone really wrong here and I don't know how I'm gonna fix this because they'd already started kind of like moving along things without me but when the whole I thought you were a researcher thing happened I was like okay so this is like kind of codified that they all agreed that I'm not really part of this so then again I'm quite conflict averse I don't like a bunny but I of like, okay, I have to kind of set out like clearly that this was my idea and it's still my idea and we all have to work together. To really summarize, goodness me, meetings literally would happen without me being there. The name of the documentary was changed without my consent. People were interviewed without my consent.

The whole shape of the project completely changed. Do you think it was a personality clash or do you think there was racism and sexism at play? There were certain decisions that were taken that I suppose like in terms of a storytelling narrative, I felt were potentially quite offensive. It's really difficult to say without saying, but there were definitely decisions that I felt were kind of like tone deaf and offensive and

I was like I can't really put my name to this but then my name wasn't really going to be on it because they'd kind of taken it from me anyway but what was really scary was having a really clear synopsis and being like I'm writing this documentary about this and everyone being like great and then someone else coming on board and then them saying well I want it to be this and everybody acting like I had nothing to do with it at all it was just oh okay this is what the director wants so we are creating that what he wants what do you think that experience ended up teaching you about your own creativity and your own vision and your own instincts I honestly can say I never ever I don't think in recent years I've ever cried so much I was so devastated and it almost made me think that like I honestly had

no skill in television like I felt that this has happened because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm not good at what I'm doing but I think what really taught me about my creative process and just my abilities and stuff was that I have really good instincts because I remember I kept saying from the beginning because to paraphrase it got really acrimonious to the point where they didn't let me do the interviews they didn't let me on set when it was being filmed I was literally put in a separate room whilst the director did his thing you know I had to bring in like essentially like a legal person they were saying that they were going to make me if I said I needed to walk from the set they said that I'd have to incur expenses to pay for if they had to basically pull the rug on this shoot they

were like you're gonna have to pay for it we'd have certain conversations where they'd basically say one thing but it was on the phone so I had there was no email anytime I tried to speak to them via email I'd send all my long emails they'd basically be like no we're going to call you and then they'd say one thing on the phone but there was no paper trail and it was very intentional because they knew that I'd have receipts basically one thing I did email was that I felt that me and the director's viewpoints were very very different and that it would ultimately affect the quality of the documentary nobody listened to me and then I ended up sort of like getting paid and walking and

saying you know what this isn't going to work lo and behold the documentary gets done everybody watches it not it doesn't come out on tv it just gets sent around the people that were involved and the channel watch it. And basically like, this is unusable. We cannot use this. This is totally a massive deviation. And every single thing I'd said in terms of why it wouldn't work and how the themes and the actual idea were just too disparate and it wasn't working. It was right. And I felt so vindicated, but it was really bittersweet I kept saying to my friends it's like have you ever had that experience where you're like saying to somebody guys hurry up we're going to be late and if we don't leave now we're going to like miss our flight or something and then you get to the airport and the flight's gone and you kind of

you're really upset but you kind of have this like weird vindication where it's like well I'm in the shitter now as well but I told you so yes I just felt like totally like I told you so because I knew it was going to happen and the whole thing fell apart and this is by the time I'd already stepped apart but we wasted god knows how much money the documentary never came out I think that is such a lesson in listening to your instinct yes and you have the last laugh in so many ways but one of the ways in which you do have the last laugh is that the list is going to be adapted by hbo max no biggie hbo succession vibes and i can completely imagine it on screen thank you you have been such a wonderful guest i'm so glad we made this happen thank you to you for your courage your vulnerability everyone must rush out and pre-order the list right now. It's out on the 20th of July. It is. And I can't wait for you all to read it. But for now, Yomi,

thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail. Thank you for being the best interviewer ever, Elizabeth. Thank you. We'll keep that in. if you enjoyed this episode of how to fail with elizabeth day i would so appreciate it if you could rate review and subscribe apparently it helps other people know that we exist