How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S17, Ep9 Mae Muller on failing to win Eurovision - but finding her voice

Episode Date: June 28, 2023

Mae Muller is a queen, icon and a legend and I won't hear anyone say differently. At 25, she is one of the hottest new talents in music. She was Great Britain's 2023 Eurovision entry with her own track, I Wrote A Song, and sure she came second last, but that didn't dim her shine for one single second. Her debut album, Sorry I'm Late, is released in September.She joins me to chat about failing to win Eurovision and the pressure she felt in the run-up to the competition; failing in school exams and failling to recognise toxic relationships in her teens. She is funny, feisty, smart and wholly without pretension and I adored this conversation with her. Listen now to feel more joyful about life.--Pre-order Mae's debut studio album, I'm Sorry I'm Late, here.--How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail]--Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHow To Fail @howtofailpodMae Muller @maemuller Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. At 25, May Muller is already an icon. She was Great Britain's Eurovision entry for 2023 and her fantastic pop banger, I Wrote a a Song reached the top 10, the first UK Eurovision song in over a decade to do so. And yes, okay, she came second last on the night, but her infectious personality and hilarious self-deprecation has won her a legion of fans and cemented her as an LGBTQ plus hun of the highest order. She grew up in Kentish Town, North London and began writing her own music at the age of seven. She has the diaries to prove it. After fine arts college, she was holding down jobs in a pub and a clothing store

when she bribed a friend with a bottle of wine to produce a few demos. Muller uploaded them onto SoundCloud in 2017, shared a video of her singing to Instagram and was signed by Capitol Records in 2018. She went on to support Little Mix on their tour and released a collaboration in 2021 which reached the top 40. Her debut studio album Sorry I'm Late is to be released later this year. An ode to May Muller was published in the student newspaper The Tab a few months ago. In it, the journalist Harrison Brocklehurst stated that I wrote a song is the gay agenda. Literally everything May Muller wears, every picture of her, every video is the definition of great vibes. Effortlessly hot, instantly charming, extremely likable.

I want to be her. May Muller, welcome to How to Fail. I can't believe it. Had you heard that before? Had you read that piece? I had. I had read that before. And I was, I find it more surreal reading reading really really nice things about myself than like the really horrible things I don't know if that makes any sense but I'm like oh my gosh someone's like really taking their time to just like write something really nice about me that's so nice

what do you think it is that so many people connect and relate to you I know that's probably an impossible question it's always something that I have wanted as in you know I want people to connect with my music I want people to like my music of course but I've always wanted to have like a close proximity with the people that know who I am and know my music I've never wanted to be this kind of like far away like unobtainable like who is May Muller I don't really know what her vibe is like who I'm not about the mystery I'm like let's have a chat let's have a drink because that's what I like from the artists I love you know like Adele, Amy Winehouse you kind of you knew who they were and they weren't this big mystery and I kind of

like that and there's some artists that do the mystery thing really, really well and it's their thing. But it's not for me. Well, I think you mentioned Adele and Amy Winehouse and I know Lily Allen was also a seminal influence on you, wasn't she? Lily Allen is like the reason why I write music. Like I don't think I would have, like would be in this position

if I hadn't discovered her her honesty just really struck a chord with me and I was I must have been like eight or younger no probably around eight when her All Right Still and her debut album came out and of course like all the subject matter like I didn't really fully understand because I was eight but I was sort of in awe of it from the very beginning because she was just so honest and she sang with her accent and she didn't try and be kind of anybody else kind of thing and she was very you know true about her experiences as a woman and I just I loved that and she's funny yeah and you would listen to her music and you'd be kind of laughing and it's she's like the queen of tongue-in-cheek and that was something that was really really inspiring to me because I

think for a long time for women in music you either had to be like really really sexy you know which is great I could be a bit sexy now and again you know or you were kind of singing like ballads and I think people like Lily really like the way, I think, for artists like me, where it's like, actually, I can do it my way and write like this. And I don't have to fit into any kind of box, which I thought was really cool. I think also what all four of you have in common is that you're all unapologetically yourselves. And I wonder if you feel like you've always had that. You've always had a strong point of view about the world that you know what you think about things no okay great I'm so relieved you said that because I've never felt

like that like I always feel my opinion must be wrong no I know honestly I mean I still to this day it's taken work work on myself to get to that point where I feel like I can speak about things and be confident in just like who I am. And I, from a very young age, I have kind of been like a people pleaser. And when I was younger or a teenager, I would do things and say things just because I thought that's what I should say. And in my early, early relationships, like that was completely how I was. I kind of molded myself to be like what they wanted me to be. What did want me to say and I think when I started to write music I was like I kind of found that as I'm gonna make up for all of that and that's how I'm gonna do it I'm gonna be the most unapologetic version of myself I'm gonna say whatever I want even if it's shocking even if

people don't like it because all those years that I spent trying to like make myself smaller and more palatable like I was like no so I think when I first started releasing music I was like I'm just gonna say whatever and it was sort of making up for that kind of what I felt was like such time wasted yeah I love that so take me back a little bit to when you were seven or eight and you heard Lily Allen and you were writing songs in your diaries. Is that the earliest time you can remember wanting to do that, wanting to be a singer? Yeah, I think from when I could have my own thoughts and like speak that I just was so drawn to the idea of performing. drawn to the idea of performing and yeah it was Lily Allen Florence the Machine and like Gwen Stefani who were all sort of my heroes when I was younger listening to them that you know when I was

six seven it made me want to try and write my own stuff and I remember there was one song and I need to find it because it's in a diary somewhere and somewhere locked away. And Florence the Machine has a song on her first album, I'm pretty sure it's called My Boy Builds Coffins or it's something along those lines, you know, very Florence. And so I, as a seven-year-old, listened to that. My own interpretation was like, my boy like turns into a werewolf like in the middle of the night. And I just, I don't know what eight-year-old,

like what my brain was doing, but, you know, listening to them tell their stories made me want to sort of do it. So I kind of just copied them from when I was a kid and I just sort of wanted to just do everything they did. But I think it was definitely listening to those, you know, those women that made me want to sort of write everything down. What did your parents think? They've always been very supportive.

I mean, they were just like, I've just been an attention seeker from like five, you know, being like, everyone, I've written a play like I've just been an attention seeker from like five you know being like everyone I've written a play I've written a song everyone has to sit on the sofa now and listen to me do it and they always would and they would sit there and they'd film and there's a lot of good footage of me you know dancing on the coffee table but I'm so lucky that they gave me that support and space and I'm sure sometimes they were just like I don't want to sit through another another one of these plays but they did I love the feeling it gave me I like the feeling when people were looking at me when I was performing and showing people look what I've done I look what I've written look what I've created so it's always been something sort of

there within me that I've really enjoyed do you have flaws tattooed on your hand yes that's so cool I'm so on brand for this podcast did you get it done especially I did especially for you Elizabeth no but you're like one of the few people that can actually read that first time I have actually got a song called flaws which I wrote a few years ago this was in my stage of being like I'm a powerful woman and you're gonna believe it when I say it and so I kind of wrote this song about you know it was called floors and it was just about just me being a bad bitch okay was it about you being at peace with your flaws and yeah kind of but it was sort of saying like I don't see any flaws when I look at myself, I'm just perfect.

But I mean, a lot of my music now, the early stuff, I love it all, but I can hear that I'm trying to prove myself. And that's so funny that five minutes ago, I was just saying how in the early stages of my career, I just like wanted to get away from my people pleasing and saying things. But even in those early stages, when I was writing those songs, I was still trying to prove myself as this like confident like I've got this and I've got that and like no one can like bring me down but I was kind of faking it a little bit yeah but fake it till you make it because now that's genuinely how I feel but I think a lot of that was just kind of saying it until I yes it confidence is a muscle that you can flex almost it's you

build up that kind of muscular resilience and then suddenly you're like actually I feel I can be this but tell me how you feel about your debut album first of all tell me about the title the album's been done for quite a while but I had no idea what I wanted to call it and I was kind of just like brainstorming all these different ideas and I was just kind of thinking what do I want this album title to mean because I was trying to think about the themes of the album what what they are but there's so many kind of different ones I don't think I could really put it into one title so I thought with sorry I'm late I've been working on it for so long my fans are always like where is it where's the album where's the album and I just thought it was a way of being like, do you know what?

It took a minute. Yes. But I'm here now. Yes. And I'm not going anywhere. And that was kind of how all the visuals came about. The cover art is me like sat at a dining table. Everyone that's sat at the dining table with me is a version of myself.

And they all represent a song on the album. They're all waiting for me at the dinner table. And then I arrive last because I'm like, oh I'm late but I'm here and let's get this show on the road kind of thing the second I sort of thought of that because I had titles before but nothing was really sticking and I couldn't really think of what the visual was going to be and the second I thought of sorry I'm late I kind of got all these ideas and I think that's when you know you've got something good when the ideas kind of come a bit more naturally yeah so how are you feeling about the album I'm very excited so it's out on September 15th which is not very far I'm just so excited to show people

a different side to me and I think my thing first and foremost is I'm a songwriter and I think a lot of people even though I you know I scream and shout about it. And I've literally just written a song called I Wrote a Song. But I just do feel like, I do feel like that is so important for people to know that that's something I take really seriously. And that my storytelling is like my first love. Like that's my bread and butter. And I think this album really, really shows that. I'm really proud of each and every song on there and I think after you know obviously I've just done Eurovision and that was

sort of doing the one song for like four months so now I'm like here you go here's 17 tracks that you can listen to but I'm really excited about it congratulations before we get on to Eurovision because we are getting there I want to ask you a question about success and what it means in the music industry. Because I imagine that it's quite a complicated metric. Like, how do you know if you're successful and is that different from feeling it inside? Honestly, the whole success thing, I have no idea. I think in music, it can be measured so differently. Like, it just depends on how you view it.

Some people think chart success. If you are getting chart success, you've won it live. But then some people that chart all the time, like, they can't sell tickets. Do you know what I mean? But they might not care about that. Whereas someone else who might never chart, there are artists that like do not chart but they can sell thousands of tickets like all over the world or like streaming like you might stream really well it just depends on what in like I guess those kind of things like how you measure it I mean for me I just think being successful

in music is like basically not caring about what anyone thinks and just doing what you want to do. That to me is real success in music. I know it might sound a bit cliche, but I think if I can get to a point where I'm not comparing myself to everybody else, not feeling like so much like agonizing pressure all the time and still making art and doing my shows, that's success to me. and still making art and doing my shows that's success to me because if you're charting and streaming but then you're you know having a terrible time like is that success I don't know and I think in music it's so hard to get it all right so I don't know I'm still figuring it out myself yeah has the because I also speak as someone who I fall victim to comparison a lot is that journey getting easier for you I don't want to be a

pessimist but I just I don't think it ever will I think because I know my brain I know what I'm like and I think especially for women in a creative industry like it's built for us to compare ourselves it's built for oh she's doing that she's doing that so you've got to do this and she's got this deal and she looks like that and it's just like I just think the female experience like we're always having to compare ourselves so it's really hard to like unlearn that but I am learning how to deal with it because I don't think it will ever truly go away but now it's like say if I see someone doing something and I get a pang of jealousy or

that kind of resentment and I'm like oh I should be doing it or that should be me or why why am I not there yet if I don't follow them already or if it's something online and I'll like reach out or like I'll comment and say something really positive because really that's actually how I feel yes like I'm jealous because I think it's amazing and I once I started doing that putting that positivity out there and actually saying this is so sick like congratulations it kind of just like evaporates that horrible bug of jealousy and resentment that horrible ugly feeling most of the time that they'll reply back and be like oh my gosh thank you like you're doing great and it's I don't know it just kind of makes all that negativity kind of subside so that's really how I try and deal with that is just try and spread as much positivity

as I can and I think if you told me five years ago what I was doing now I'd be like oh my god you're smashing it so I think it's just hard to get perspective sometimes it's extremely wise of you though because there's a woman called Glennon Doyle who wrote an incredible book called Untamed and she came on How to Fail and she said exactly the same thing as you that when she feels jealous it's often because it's actually you can repackage it as opportunity it's like okay that person has something that i admire how can i get there too yes and she does the same thing she reaches out she's like i loved this piece of work that you did. And similarly has found that it just, if you smother something with love,

it's kind of really healthy for everyone involved. And as women, we have been conditioned to believe in scarcity of resources. And so there's only so much room for one of us. And actually that's a lie. It's such a lie. Yeah. It is. It's such a lie.

Honestly, there's room for everyone. There really is. Let's get on to your failures because I for everyone there really is like yeah let's get on to your failures because I know that there'll be people listening to this now screaming at me for not asking you about Eurovision but it's because I've been keeping my powder dry as a huge Eurovision fan I am so delighted that you chose Eurovision as your first failure because you were absolutely phenomenal thank you you were it was brilliant you was brilliant. You were brilliant. Everyone loved you. And it didn't go your way on the night.

But part of what we love about Eurovision is it's so unhinged. You never know what's going to win. It is absolutely unhinged. Oh, my gosh. I mean, obviously, I kind of knew that. That's one of the things everyone loves about it because it is just mad. But being on the inside of it, oh, oh my gosh I can't explain to you just how nuts it truly is from start to finish it was just nuts why so what talk us through what actually

happens so from when you find out from so before you're announced the work starts like straight away because you obviously have to film all this stuff for announced and it's all really really secret like you can't say a word I had an amazing time and I'm really really happy I did it and obviously everyone that takes part is under a crazy amount of pressure but I think for me my experience from beginning to end it was just like pressure from all angles and I think it got it just it got to me and it was surprising for me because usually nothing really gets to me shows I performed at Wembley Stadium the other day doing summertime ball I was like cool like I don't really get nervous and scared or feel pressure it was really difficult a lot of the time just because I I think a lot of it is

stuff you put on yourself but I think just from angles, I allowed all the pressures to get to me. And even from before I was announced, I could see that everyone thought it was either Rina Sawayama or like Mimi Webb or, you know, all these amazing artists. So in my head, I'm like, oh, God, they don't know it's me. Everyone's going to hate that news. Oh, God, because they're all expecting one thing. And so when I was announced, there was that thing of, thing of I mean to be honest most people were really supportive and amazing and I think once I could start to be myself online and show myself people kind of bought into it but from the get-go people were like who's this we don't want her like we want

a Rina like this is not what we wanted so already I kind of had to like okay I've got to prove myself that I'm worthy and that like obviously obviously, Rina is an actual queen. So I need to like prove that I can still get people excited for it. So I got to that stage and then but then it's just like press, press, press. And then obviously, before I even got to Liverpool, just so much happened. Well, someone from your record label is here and I was chatting to her just beforehand. She said it's like a political campaign, which I hadn't appreciated, that you have to go to every country. Is that right? You have to go to lots of countries and perform your song.

And it's almost like glad handing and it's a proper campaign almost to be elected. Yeah, no, it is. There are pre-parties. So we did Barcelona, Madrid, Poland, London, Amsterdam. I think there were a few more. And that's just the pre-parties. And then you're doing like press all around. The first one was Barcelona. And I was sick as a dog.

Oh, like not sick in a cool way? Not in a cool, not in a yeah man. Not in an urban dictionary way. No, I was really ill. And that was my first time performing a song. And it was like the first time putting myself out there in this sort of new world. My vocals were trash. The performance was trash because I just, I wasn't well.

And I was kind of nervous. And there were some choices that were made that I don't think were, it was just like not my best performance. And that people were ready to kind of just jump on that and I think that just really set me off in like in a negative headspace because usually I don't I don't care what people think or say but I think this time around I was just like oh damn I was so so eager to like prove myself so when that happened it kind of like knocked me a bit and this is is this in the weeks before the contest or the months before this is like this is probably like a month before okay like a month and a half that's

a long old run-up and I imagine that part of the pressure is that you feel you're representing your entire country yes but I don't think I was really because I was, but I feel like people thought I wasn't because obviously I've got my views. Yes. And I've said things in the past, which I stand by. Yeah. Tell us what you said. So you were referring to tweets, which I bloody love. Like that's part of why you're brilliant is that you are a young woman with a voice and you're hilarious and you don't filter yourself.

And what you say is absolutely factually correct okay in my opinion but you tweeted some things that were about how disappointed you felt in certain political decisions in the brexit referendum yeah and some of that was taken out of context and used yes stick to beat you with. That happened a good, like, a month and a half before the final was even. But the thing is, that was fine for me because, you know, when people are like, oh, yeah, they've brought some, like, old tweets up and you're saying this, you're saying that. And I was like, I'll say it again. And I'll say it again.

I've never had that. I was the front page of the Telegraph. I've never had that before. So it was just, like, a very strange, when I was younger, and I was like, you're going to be on the cover of this had that. I was the front page of the Telegraph. I've never had that before. So it was just like a very strange, when I was younger, and I was like, you're going to be on the cover of this and that. Like, you know, my dreams. That was not how I thought it would be. So that was kind of strange because I think obviously that kind of rubbed

a lot of people up the wrong way. And they thought that I hated the country and that I was this kind of left-wing activist, which I think there are far worse things you can be in this life, but hey-ho. So there was already a lot of other pressures on that just because people really didn't like that and they wanted me to fail big time. They were like, we don't want her.

I can't wait until she comes last. And I was like, second last. Who's laughing now? Who's laughing now? I had politicians, really high up Tory politicians talking about me and I was just like I'm just a girl I wrote a song and now I'm doing this like this is crazy what they were actually saying and who was saying it like never got to me because I don't search for validation like from those people you'd be worried if they did like you

yeah I'd be worried and the people that were supporting me I was like yeah these are the people that you know if I'd like offended the LGBTQ plus community then I'd be like fuck shit like then I'd be worried do you know I mean because like those are the people that I respect and want in my team but people that I like don't respect others and are just disrespectful I'm like yeah you can hate me like don't respect others and are just disrespectful. I'm like, yeah, you can hate me. I don't care. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History,

a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. So you're in this kind of cauldron of attention and stress and anticipation leading up to Liverpool. How do you manage to keep yourself relatively sane? How did you deal with what I imagine was a lot of anxiety?

I started watching Vanderpump Rules. OK, we need to devote a whole... I know. Half hour to this. I haven't actually... I'm on season 10. I've not finished it. But I obviously know what happens. But I'm like, I'm on season 10. I've not even, I've not finished it, but I obviously know like what happens, but I'm like, no, no, no. I'm so proud of you.

Thank you. I, yeah, I just watched Vanderpump Rules. Like anytime I wasn't like working or doing something, I just had that on and it just kind of like, it made me realize that there's like another world outside of Eurovision. Yes. Because that's what it feels like.

It feels like you're in a different world you're in a different reality you can't actually believe when you're doing it that there are other things happening because it's just so intense so yeah I watched a lot of like Vanderpump Rules tried to like just like talk to my friends a lot I found it very very like anxiety inducing I'm not used to that as in about my work and music. Like that's the thing that brings me like joy and pride. So it was just like a very alien experience for me to like have such like anxiety about what I was doing in music kind of thing.

But I try to sort of just relax. And I have a really amazing team, like my vocal coach, Annie, and my choreographer Claude like they really helped me and there were so many times where I just cried and I was just like I can't like I cannot do it and they were like girl you're gonna have to do it but they were really good at just like pushing me through that and helping me and giving me support when I needed it you know poor thing that is so much I am making it sound like really really awful but get on to the joy in a second

we'll get on to the joy and there was a lot of joy but it was also yeah very hard so did you seriously think of quitting of just like no obviously I would never that was just not an option for me I was like I'm never gonna do that but there was some serious moments where I was just like I don't know how to get through it because it was just so much. There's no sort of time when you're not being watched. Like all the rehearsals, like even in the pre-parties, like the sound checks, all the moments when you're kind of supposed to be like, that's your time to practice and like get it ready on stage.

Like there's press there. There are fans there. And the fans are amazing. They're some of the best people I've ever met at any gigs they're just so here for it they're so knowledgeable about Eurovision and they they really love it and so that was for me what kind of drove me as well I was like I have to do it for these fans that Eurovision is so important to them so I was like I've got to give it my all but there's no kind of like okay you can rehearse and there's no eyes on you so it was just every situation was just very like pressurized so the night itself uh sorry no I'm joking I don't want to trigger you no but trigger she's traumatized

how was it on the night itself did Were you incredibly nervous in advance before you went on stage? I was nervous, obviously, but it was just an overwhelming sense of like, in three minutes, it's going to be done. Like you would have done it, like you've done it. So that was kind of all I was thinking. But, you know, before the final, there's like five full performances where you do, there's the jury night, then there's like five full performances we do there's the jury night then there's the final but then there was also I performed at the semi-final I did like a performance for that and so I got a

few times to sort of really run it through but I'm being 100% honest with you there was not one time where I did that performance even rehearsing where I was like I'm 100% happy with that not once like I know vocally, I couldn't get it together. Like, I just couldn't. And I know, and that is the one thing that now I'm like, oh, because, you know, people go like, you can't even sing. Like, you can't sing live. And that's what really hurts me because touring is,

I love it so much. And I know that I can. And so now I feel like I've just got this other thing to prove where it's like, I've got to do so many shows now and I've got to smash it because I need to show that like I can actually do it but for Eurovision I was completely in my head but the other side of that was I the whole promo side and like even just at the TikTok side and like connecting with the fans like I loved that part yes like I love we loved that part we loved that part and part of what we loved was that after what happened happened you owned where you'd come on the leaderboard with such humor and brilliance

and your own voice that if anything we all ended up loving you so much more like so much more than we would have done if you'd won to be quite honest like I think that's really the test of your character is how you responded to that thank you for saying that because I remember on the night obviously I was really upset but then there was the after party and I still went I was like I'm going I'm having drinks the next day I must have been like I think I can't remember exactly what day it was Sunday or Monday. The next day, I was like, that was the one day where I really just, like, allowed myself to, like, wallow in it. And because I know because of what I post and my TikToks, like, it's funny and it's a joke. But, like, it really, like, obviously I was heartbroken. I was heartbroken.

But I gave myself a day. I was like, you're going to be a victim for one day and then you're not because that was the one thing I couldn't stand is like I can't deal with like people pitying me I just don't want that so I was like you're going to have a day to think your life is over to think your career is over I cried so much and my dad was there with me the entire time he drove me back to Liverpool because he came he came to the show and the next day he drove me back and he just allowed me to like cry be upset and then the next day I was like cool that's done I got through it and now I'm not having people look at me like pity looks

like oh no I was like no it's not an option and that's when I made that TikTok the one that everyone kind of saw Love of Huns posted it which was very exciting I mean that is a life goal no honestly I was like who needs to win Eurovision right Love of Huns posts you like hello and the second I did that and took ownership of the narrative and took control that was probably like the most myself I felt in like the whole Eurovision experience because I was like okay yeah the second I started taking control of it I started to feel better. Yourself again. Yeah. But isn't that interesting that like that's the thing that drew you to music in the first place was all of these unapologetic women being themselves and

that's what you do in every song that you write like I wrote a song is about not being a victim in the wake of a breakup and as soon as you got back to that bit of yourself it was okay again yeah yeah it's true in the midst of all of this chaos yeah what were some of the highlights just the sheer moments of joy for you of the whole Eurovision experience I think it was just connecting with especially the fans I feel like you know we went to Poland and there were crowds of people like screaming the song and before I would have gone to Poland and no one would have even like known who I was kind of things you know what I mean and I don't want to discredit what I've done before Eurovision because I feel like I was at a place where I was proud of where I was but it just took it to another level and so that was really really nice to go to you know Barcelona and Madrid and

Poland Amsterdam and just meeting all these people that I wouldn't have got to meet and see how they were enjoying the song like that was amazing and also meeting the other contestants as well that was one like really joyous thing I think is just the other contestants and how lovely they were like how talented they all are I was so inspired by so many of them and being in that space with them that was really nice and yeah it didn't feel like a competition yeah there wasn't any like oh yeah like that's I don't know it was just everyone just kind of rallied around each other and wanted each other to win, you know? Are you still in touch with any of them?

Yeah. Do you have a WhatsApp group? We don't have a WhatsApp group, which is really, I feel like we definitely should. I mean, maybe they are. Maybe they do and I'm just not in it. Yeah, I joke around. I still speak to, you know, Bohan from Joker Out. I still speak to Taya and Selena.

I speak to Noah Carell occasionally. I'm probably missing some people out. But like it's nice to kind of still have that kind of hub of people. Because it's such a journey and you did that yourself. And nobody knows what it's like apart from the people that have done it. So that was a highlight for sure just to meet them. Well done. Well done for doing it.

Thank you. And now you've done it. I've got a top 10 out of it. Yes, because that's the true success. How many other people would have crawled over hot coals to have that? Let's get on to your second failure, which is failed relationships. Oh, yes. So you wrote from toxic relationships in both personal and professional life

that you found it hard to trust people. What was your first toxic relationship? My first toxic relationship? Well, my first relationship, I was 15. So my brain probably hadn't even like fully developed yet. And I was with him for two and a half years I only just started speaking about this very recently because I was like I don't want this relationship in this person to like have any like credit in my story but it's what makes you who you are and I probably wouldn't have written the songs that I've written

if it didn't happen so ditto with this podcast by the way sorry how to fail wouldn't exist were it not for a breakup do you know I really oh really yes yeah see I think that relationship even though I hate to admit it I think it genuinely did traumatize me like for life in a way and not in a way where you know I'm sort of de-habilitated is that the right word yeah oh my god I should know words I write songs for a living anyways but I think it just changed the way I saw men and how I saw like relationships how I viewed love how I viewed myself in a lot of ways how was it toxic he was just very emotionally abusive, sometimes physically abusive. And I think when you are so young, that's okay.

When you're so young, I thought that that's just what love was. It's crazy because my parents are the most loving, like supportive. Like my dad is like the loveliest, like most gentle man. My mom is just amazing. And I almost felt guilty because I'm like like after all that love that they gave me I went and chose this for myself kind of thing so I had a lot of like afterwards I had a kind of a lot of guilt and I felt a lot very stupid but you're 15 you know and it was just very very like emotionally abusive cheated on me but I can get past that you know he was a kid himself as well

but it was just the emotional abuse very gaslighting like extremely gaslighting like literally made me believe I was absolutely crazy I wouldn't wear certain things like everything you can imagine was that's what it was I think when that's your first idea of like what a relationship is like what love is anything after that that wasn't as chaotic I was like what's this then like you obviously don't care because you're not you're not like threat like you're not threatening me you're not throwing my phone across the room like you're not like getting aggressive you must not love me like and I think I brought a lot of those toxic traits into my next relationship I'm sure he'd probably call me oh my, my ex was such a psycho.

And I probably was a little bit because I was so traumatized by what I had just been through. But now, in a lot of ways, I'm very, very thankful that I went through that at such a young age, because now I'm 25. I will never allow someone to treat me like that again. Never. Like, I will never allow someone to treat me like that again. Never. Like the second I get a hint of disrespect, I'm out because I've done that. I don't need to do it again because for a while I kind of let it like block a lot of blessings. And, you know, I'm sure I messed up quite a few good things because of it. And now I've really kind of worked on that.

And when someone is showing me like genuine love, like I'm not going to sabotage it because I can like recognize it and if I get those feelings like bubbling up I know what it is kind of thing but yeah it was difficult what you're saying I relate to so much of it although it's taken me many decades longer to learn the lessons that you have clearly learned and now I feel that there is nothing more romantic in a relationship than a feeling of safety if you feel unsafe that's not true love no and so much of our culture fetishizes that idea of passion being unpredictable and temperamental yeah and it's not it's not and that's so funny I remember when I was going through it and my friends they were like seriously concerned like they were seriously worried about my situation and what was going to happen to me.

And I remember saying it to one of my best friends ever. And she was going through a similar thing at the time with her boyfriend at that age. I remember us both saying to each other, like, they just don't understand. Like they don't get it. Like they don't understand. It's passion. Now thinking back, I'm like, oh gosh, like what an idiot. But I think it's very misconstrued that kind of aggressiveness it's almost seen as like that fiery love there's

actually so much more in feeling safe and feeling like protected and I think being protected is being actually like gentle and like someone who's going to stick up for you but not bring you down and not control you yeah and I think that was a big thing you know the whole control something that I'm still working on now because of that I'm scared of causing a rift with anyone conflict avoidant yes yes I hate conflict now because I think I had so much of it when I was younger yeah and sometimes it's to my disadvantage because sometimes like I will not say how I feel sometimes with friends or if I've had partners just because I don't want to conflict like I don't want to argue and I think sometimes you do have to bring things up to you know move on or get past things and I need to remember like people that

love me they're not going to react like that like Like they're not going to hurt me. Like they're not going to. So I think I'm still learning to be able to sometimes like bring things up without having that fear. I think sometimes when we're conflict avoidant and we've had those sort of relationships where we've had to tread on eggshells not only do we have our feelings but we feel that we have to hide our feelings deny them not bring them up not make them an issue but we're also taking on emotional labor of someone else's feelings and giving those feelings loads of space so you're doing the emotional labor of two people and then of the relationship as a whole yeah and it's so exhausting and part of your journey I feel as it was for me is to understand that you have every right to your

feelings and they are valid and you can express them yeah it sounds so simple but I understand how hard it is when you come from that kind of situation yeah I wonder how it's played out in your professional life because being a young woman in music I mean it doesn't get the greatest press and I and for someone who is conflict avoidant how do you manage that it's funny because it has been sometimes quite difficult I think and it's funny because in my music you wouldn't think that it's like this girl knows how to like say how she feels and but like I said like my music is a way of doing that without actually having to do it if that makes sense but yeah sometimes it's been really hard my first manager I've not spoken about that publicly either but it's such an important part of my whole

journey three years I had a manager and that was like complete toxicity I met them when I was 19 and it was just very became very like codependent it just was really nasty and they took advantage of me big time because they could see that I was conflict avoidant I didn't want to cause anything and I was so young and I was new and I just wanted to do well and I think they really really took advantage of that was it a man no actually which was really disappointing not disappointing but it was just like but that hasn't changed you know I've always said still like I want my manager to be a woman because it just makes everything a lot easier but in this case it kind of felt like I'd gone from one toxic

relationship to another but that also taught me as well in work, you have to just say what you want from early on. And in this industry as well, if people can see that they can take the piss, they will. They are good people, but just in music, you just have to be careful. So that was another thing where I had to kind of maneuver that. And finally, you know, I let them go. I basically, I fired them them and that was like the hardest thing I've ever done harder than any breakup because the whole thing was so toxic and the second I did that I was like oh my gosh you've just done that you've just done such a huge thing

for you and no one else and it was a really hard thing but you did it anyway because you put yourself first and ever since then I think just how I am and my you know work really really changed and that really helped me actually going through that now but it was a lot yeah yeah you realize sometimes you're stronger than you think for sure go back to Eurovision as well for a sec like that whole thing now I'm like I'm one strong ass bitch because if I can do that, I can do anything. So all these things that feel horrible at the time, you know, like the toxic relationships, the emotional kind of damage that does and then getting through things with work.

And then when things don't go to plan and everything, they all feel like the end of the world. And then you get to the other side and it's like oh my god I feel so proud of myself and I feel so much stronger because I all of that stuff that I went through and that happened to me like that could have killed me off but here I am yeah still pushing totally and I I often say that all failures can end up teaching you something even if the only thing it teaches you is that you survived it yeah that's taught you about your strength and your resilience I love that yeah yeah get that tattooed on your other on your other hand that's my next one yes your final failure we're doing kind of reverse chronology I guess but it's that you failed at school yeah I love that you chose

this one because not that many people do well Well, it's quite literal, I suppose. Yeah. But it's, I think, a big part of, you know, the reason why I sort of got to where I am. I was never really a good school person. Were you at school in Kentish Town? So I went to Ackland Burley, which is... I used to live around the corner from there. No way.

Yeah, I used to walk past it on my way to therapy. Love that. Yes. Yeah, so I went to Ackland Burley for secondary school, which I loved. I did love it. But retaining information, like having to sit down and do something at a certain time, even now I really struggle. Like just my brain doesn't work that way.

So I found that really hard. And then I actually went to college at Fine Arts College. My secondary school was a state school. And then I went to private school as a college. For sixth form. For sixth form, yeah. And that switch was really, really extreme. In a negative way. Not in a negative way, but it was just very interesting like so I was so so privileged and so lucky that I got to go to that school because you know the amount of like attention that you get and the classes are much

smaller it was just the pupils that were there I just felt very much like I was on the outskirts a lot of the time because I just couldn't really connect yeah in the same way I was just like this is not my world yeah this is not my world I was very thankful to be able to go I did better than I probably would have if I had not gone to fine arts but I still managed I got a U in psychology so they couldn't even mark it it was unclassified I think that's what that stands for I'm not really sure but when you were actually in the exam could you like I know why I know what happened it was because for the psychology exam I knew that I only I only know like two essays like off by heart so I was like if it's not one of these two I'm failing because I don't know anything else and it wasn't so I just wrote the

essay I knew anyway because there was nothing else for me to write so the essay that I wrote was good but it wasn't answering the question that they'd asked so they just you know they couldn't mark it properly so that was that but in a way I'm thankful because if I had done really really amazing in school and got all A's and whatever then I would have probably gone to university that was my dream to do music but I didn't know how to get there so I would have probably gone to university to like figure it out I suppose but I didn't and so I ended up just working and then while I was working it kind of gave me the time to write and figure that out so I'm kind of thankful that it worked out that way I'm a big big believer in like unless you want to be like a bloody surgeon or a scientist

or like something really academic grades like whatever like you'll be fine I know that might be a bit of an annoying thing to say but I think especially when I was younger I think it's already like changed quite a bit but it was kind of like if you fail in school like you have failed at life yes and you will not do anything or get anywhere like you will be a failure and I think now those tides are really changing because there are so many other things you can do and there are so many other ways you can learn and especially if you want to do something creative I think the thing to do is just to go out there and start doing it I honestly think that's such a beautiful thing for people to hear especially because we're entering or in exam season right

now and the amount of pressure on students at school and it's the most over examined over tested generation no I just think there are so many other ways to learn and for the kids that don't learn in one way I think it can can be extra difficult and stressful. And I want people to know that there are other ways and it's not the be all and end all. You know, work hard, do your best, of course. That's all you can do. And then if there's other things, especially now there are so many other ways you can succeed in life.

I didn't thrive in an academic environment at all. Has your school, either one of them, have they ever asked you back to give a talk have they I went back to Ackland Burley yes I love it it was so nice they must be so proud of you it was really really sweet actually and Miss James shout out Miss James she is a queen she's a French teacher but she was my form tutor I was in her class basically and she's still there so I got to see her and she was so sweet that secondary school like 30 kids in each class everyone just a bit rowdy not behaving themselves

so all the teachers out there like take my hat off to you you're amazing but it was nice that yeah they asked me back it was quite funny actually I was speaking in assembly in the year nine assembly so it was about probably like 200 kids and I thought it was just going to be like a question and answer thing and they kind of stood me up and they were like this is Mae Muller Eurovision entrant like artist and she's just gonna like speak to you and just like left me up there and I was like oh my god so I just had to improvise because I was like kids are like so I'm like scared I'm like I to like me. Yeah. I had a nice chat with them. But it was really, really nice to, yeah, go back to somewhere that I've, you know, spent so much time in.

And it was a full circle moment, for sure. That's a lovely moment. To draw this to a close, but not before, I've asked you quite a random question. But I read that your grandfather escaped from Nazi Germany at the age of 12 and came to Britain. Yes. Is he still alive? No, that's one thing that it's life. But he died when I was very, very young, when I was a few months old.

So I think he was so traumatized that he probably wouldn't have even spoken about it anyway. But he's such an inspirational person. He came over when he was 12 on his own, didn't speak a word of English. And he became quite a successful journalist slash writer like made a pretty nice life for himself had kids and I just think you know I say you can't imagine it but like it's happening right now like all you know all over the world people are fleeing their homes and I think you know to send your child alone off into the sea what you're fleeing must be pretty damn terrifying that's why I say I feel very connected to like my Jewish roots because I'm not Jewish myself I've never practiced

it and like isn't like your mum has to be Jewish for you to be but I feel very connected because my granddad went through so much at that such a young age and he kind of persevered and managed to kind of come out of it and succeed in a lot of ways so I feel very kind of you know I wouldn't be here if he didn't so I'm very kind of inspired by him and his story and I wish I could have known him because even just the things I hear about him and what my dad says what my aunts say like I know that we would have been really really close but even though I didn't really get to know him personally it's very like I feel very honoured that that's sort of in my family and that's in my heritage. That's so beautiful it's like you carry his spirit in you and I'm sure he would be so immensely proud of you as we all are as a nation and I have loved this conversation thanks I know I tend to

I'm a bit of a rambler so sorry if I've you weren't rambling at all but also that's a dream for me because I barely need to ask any questions but thank you for being just so fully yourself and honest. And you're brilliant. And I can't wait to see what you do next. Thank you so much. And everyone must rush out and buy your new single and your forthcoming album. May Muller, thank you so much for coming on How To Fail. Thank you so much for having me.

much for having me. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.