How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S18, Ep10 Claudia Winkleman on the joy of imperfection

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

I LOVE CLAUDIA WINKLEMAN. There. That's it. That's your shownotes. Well ok then... Claudia Winkleman is a broadcaster who feels like your best friend - whether she's co-hosting Strictly Come Dancing, fronting her Saturday morning BBC Radio 2 show or sending shivers down your spine as the presenter of The Traitors. And now, for our season finale, she joins me to talk about her hatred of perfect, her distaste for exercise, her introversion and her failure to live in the present. Plus: struggles with sleep, the invaluable lessons her parents' taught her and why Rembrandt (as seen with minus 15 eyesight) might be her forever style icon. *Please note: this episode was recorded before the recent horrific events in Israel and Gaza* -- Claudia's new range of CBD beauty and wellness products with Cannaray is available to purchase here. -- You can book tickets for my March 2024 UK tour, An Audience With Elizabeth Day (lol), here. -- How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted and produced by Elizabeth Day. To contact us, email [e-mail] -- Social Media: Elizabeth Day @elizabday How To Fail @howtofailpod Claudia Winkleman @claudiawinkle Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. When Claudia Winkleman was younger, her parents gave her advice for entering the world of work. Make the tea, whoever you are. And although these days she is far beyond the realms of making the tea, you can imagine she still does it. Her nature as a broadcaster is always to be on your side, whether you're a viewer, a listener, or a contestant. On Strictly Come Dancing, which she has co-hosted with Test Daily for almost a decade, Winkleman is the one who cheers up Ed Balls after he's received a three

from the judges. On her Saturday morning Radio 2 show, she encourages her millions of listeners to phone in and take part. And although her BAFTA-winning stint fronting the traitors showed us a darker side, Winkleman still ended up giving the main traitor a hug when they had a meltdown. I have no time for perfect, she has said. The perfect dinner party, the perfect bedspread, the perfect conversation starter, that all makes me feel nauseous. I like ramshackle and funny and smart, which is why I like shepherd's pie and bridge with my best and oldest friend. And I like things sort of decaying, including myself. I find that much more charming. I'm happy to fall apart. Claudia Winkleman, welcome to How to Fail.

Thank you so much for having me. Now, Claudia was very worried that my introduction was going to be so nice that she would cringe into obsolescence. I don't really like nice but that was that was charming okay and lovely and I did write that last bit or I thought or I said that last bit so I can't argue with that and my parents are amazing and they did tell me always be there the first be there the last make the tea so I can't argue with any of it and I kept it deliberately quite short because there's so much I want to talk to you about. Because I utterly adore you.

I adore you from afar. I adore you in your presence. Now I'm going to make you cringe. But I just wanted to get straight into chatting because there's so much to talk about. And I suppose the first thing I want to ask is about that thing of being happy to fall apart. When did you start feeling happy to fall apart? I think from quite early on, if there's perfect here, you know, people who want things to look good and ordered and alphabeticised and organised, and then there's the other end, I'm past the other end. I like irregular and as I say, ramshackle and messy. I'm not very good. I suppose, I mean, just look at the way I do my eye makeup. I mean messy I'm not very good I suppose I mean just look at the way I do my eye makeup I mean I'm not very good at neat so I think I learned that quite early on and so maybe at university where I just couldn't compete with sort of just I don't know a nice clean cardigan

and a fresh face and a lovely pony and notes written down possibly using two different colours and fonts I'm not that person so I just had to embrace it and I think my parents also really encouraged not being perfect like not having to come first you don't need to get the A star I'm never going to win a race I've never moved we'll discuss that later I imagine and failing that's why I love your podcast because my dad is huge on failing he thinks it's absolutely vital I mean it's important we've all got to mess things up I want to come back to your parents but you mentioned university there and even though your parents didn't put you under pressure to get an A star which didn't really exist in our day but anyway you still got to Cambridge to study art history.

And you said in the past, your speciality was Rembrandt. And the way that you look is influenced by Rembrandt's self-portraits. Well, yes. I mean, I was slightly exaggerating. But what I do like is the, and by the way, he was a genius. But I like chiaroscuro. I like smudged. I love smudged.

I don't like pin sharp, I mean look at the photos of my phone they're all slightly wonky I have 18 000 just of like a sofa end because I got confused so yeah I loved Rembrandt I love Titian it was an absolute honor to go to such a place and learn about paintings did you enjoy it no I was very homesick at the beginning really homesick because I lived in a world where honestly where my mum and dad lived close to each other they were divorced but and I had brilliant step-parents that I would go home and they would go it's not being funny but did you use the blue ink or did you have you just stuck with black and for lunch when you went to Boots and you shared a wrap with Melanie did you have you just stuck with black and for lunch when you went to boots and you shared a

rap with Melanie did you do the cheese and pickle or did you do the cheese and coleslaw then I go off to university and nobody cares what color ink I'm using or what I had for my lunch and it was so confusing to me I was just like guys I have gone for taramisu lata from the co-op yes I have and everyone's like yeah all right don't get drunk I was like no I don't like it so I was very homesick at the beginning but then I loved it your parents sound like absolute legends and I've had the honor of meeting your mother Eve Pollard one of the first ladies of Fleet Street one of the first ever female editors of a national newspaper and you mentioned mentioned there that they got divorced

when you were three, but did a great job of co-parenting. A brilliant job. But it's interesting because one of the things that comes up when you read about Claudia Winkleman, positive history, is this phrase that you have no full siblings, which is a weird phrase.

So you have half siblings. Yeah, but I think of them as full. Right, that was going to be my question. I've never, we don't do half. And it was weird earlier when I was talking about my step parents, because I just sort of feel like I collected parents. You know, some people like snow globes and I just like family. So we don't use any of those words.

So I've got brother and sister and then I've got three brilliant steps. So yeah, no, I don't view them as halves. They are my brother and sister. Tell me about your parents. So my, no, I don't view them as halves. They are my brother and sister. Tell me about your parents. So my parents are utterly brilliant. So funny, clever, wise, so wise. I'm 51 now and I don't do anything without just checking with my dad. Honestly, anything. Even if I'm like, I'm going to try dry cleaners. I don't often send something to the dry cleaners. I phone them up. I go, it's called Nancy's. Where do you stand on this and he goes I like it take a photograph of the menu

outside send it to me I mean so sweet yeah I'm incredibly lucky so supportive slightly amused when I started doing telly I think just like what's she doing she studied art history she wants to work in a gallery, but always supportive and very proud and watch and listen to everything. And I've said to them, you really don't have to, guys. You don't feel like you have to. I can tell you who left strictly, or I can tell you who won Traitors,

or I can tell you about the little win on Radio 2. They're like, no, no, no, we're there. We're with you. That's so sweet. One of the things that I read about years ago, not for this podcast, but has always stuck with me as a sort of brilliant bit of parenting, is that I think it was your dad used to take you to art galleries and say to you, you can only look at one painting.

It's the most genius thing. It's so clever. It's so clever. So you know when you go for the day out or whether you're, I don't know, visiting a museum or an art gallery, you often think, well, I've come, either I've paid entry, or I've, you know, it's been a whole event, I've brought a picnic, we'll do these three rooms, then we'll sit down. And by the end of the day, you are exhausted. And you're like, no, thank you. Thanks very much. Well done, Rome. but no. So my dad, because we're so lucky the

National Gallery is free, used to take me to the National Gallery. And I loved it because you go past the lions and it was super glamorous. And we'd take the tube and we'd go in every Saturday morning and I was only ever allowed to look at one painting. And it was just genius. And as we'd leave, I'd go, what about that? And he'd go, yeah, that's Stubbs. We'll do that next week. And then we'd go into Chinatatown have a massive bowl of noodles it seems to me that there's this great emphasis on paying attention to what seems to be the little things but actually they end up being the huge things and one of the things that I wanted to ask you about was your parents background so your father was born in 1939 yes your mother's parents they in London, but they came from Hungary and Austria. And so

they escaped the Holocaust, but much of their extended family didn't. And I suppose I just want to ask you about what effect you think that might have had on you in terms of valuing life. Yes, I think the effect that had on my mum was enormous. So my mum grew up in a house where there was a suitcase packed in the hall every day because they thought they might have to run. And where my grandpa's pockets, he would always have cash hidden just in case that they have to run because all of their family were killed. I think my mum really valued life and wanted everything to count. Now, I could have said anything to her. I could have said, do you know what? I'm going to do this. Doesn't matter that I do telly or whatever it was, but just make it count. Doesn't matter anything else. And my dad was brought up sort of in the same vein, but where culture was very important so it's not necessarily about success but it is about reveling in books and art and sculpture and looking up whenever you're with my dad Barry I mean he's a hero he's always looking up so you know whether you're in King's Cross or whether you're in the

Lake District I've actually never been to the Lake District with him I went once took me 18 hours to get there beautiful I will go back but yeah I think I'm so lucky a privilege to be brought up by both of them so I'm going to say something that will make you shrivel you're clearly highly intelligent no you are I'm just just I'm that's my opinion okay you're very sweet and you're highly cultured where do you see light entertainment I, I take exception to that phrase, even light entertainment. Yes. But where do you see it in the pantheon

of all of this stuff that your parents taught you? Do you believe that it has profound value? Something like Strictly Come Dancing. I think Strictly Come Dancing is, well, it's Christmas, isn't it? And even though it starts in September. So I love being part of, and by the way, and I'm not just saying this to be faux self-deprecating.

I'm an idiot because I know I do that a lot and I know it's annoying because it sounds disingenuous, but I promise you on Strictly, which is a massive machine, a beautiful glittery steam engine. I'm not even a cog. I am smaller than a cog. I don't know what that is. A bit of dust on the floor in the nicest possible way. I'd say the scores are in and I'm there to make sure people are okay. Angela Rippon likes Tannock's tea cakes. I will get them for her. That is my

job. So I'm only a miniature part of it, but I love the fact that it does bring, if this doesn't sound too hideous, sort of joy on a Saturday night. And it's one of the few things that whole families watch together. So grandparents with their grandchildren, it feels very special to be part of that. But going back to, I'm not intelligent, but going back to doing exams and all of these things, I love exams and I like being tested.

And that's live television in different form so if you said to me now Claude let's scrap this podcast because actually you're rubbish and I've had much better guests but be a love could you just get on the train to Manchester and go and meet the following five people because I promised them I would and blah blah whatever it is and then you've got to get them to John O'Groats or and you've got to make sure they have a good time and stay on the muscle I don't know I like being tested and that is five four three two okay doesn't matter what it is I like dancing and I can't do it but if it was strictly come avocado chopping yeah but it was live on television I'm in so you like the

adrenaline but also might I add I think you like the adrenaline, but also, might I add, I think you like the mothering. I like trying to look after them. And I like, I really like the nerves. And I like, I like the camaraderie. I love being part of a big gang, which university is as well. You know, when we're all like, I've got to write 5,000 words on Jura.

The guy did a rabbit and all of us in a panic i don't know much else by the way it all left my head it's a shame woodcuts the apocalypse extraordinary it was a hair not a rabbit god sorry i really hope my lecturer isn't listening so i what are you reading look at the ears of course it's not a rabbit uh we've got a rabbit oh i'm in love with. Different story. Have you? What's a rabbit called? Cheese. Oh.

My daughter's funny. I always wanted a rabbit. Yeah, I mean, they're cuter than it could possibly be, but they're pooing. Next level. Can't remember what I was whining about. Nerves, adrenaline. Nerves, adrenaline, and being part of the gang.

Okay. I have open talk back. So when you do telly, you have an earpiece. And I always love open. Lots of people have clothes, which is, you know, they tell you, you know, move to the left or we've only got two minutes. But I love hearing the entire gallery. I love hearing the fact that they've run out of ginger biscuits. When I'm in the middle of interviewing Les Dennis, I feel part of something much bigger than myself.

Beautiful. Before we get on to your failures, I want to ask you about The Traitors. I loved The Traitors so much. I sent you a DM. I didn't know you. I just sent you a DM. Claudia, I just have to say, this is the best piece of television I think I've ever seen. I watched it all one weekend. It was so incredible. So, so good. The psychological warfare of it. It was just just genius and we did see a different side to you in that he was swathed in this tweed and roll neck and you were very kind of straight faced and a bit scary and headmistress like how hard was that impossible yeah so when I knew I

wanted to do it they said to me can you go to Inverness for three weeks and I was like you don't seem to understand I never leave my bed it's a no and then they went no no but can you just watch can you just watch this because they'd made it in Holland and I was obsessed by it but we had no idea if it was going to do well and I literally got on the train to Inverness holding some red leather gloves a cloak and they said at the end there are going to be ceremonial pouches I was like guys I think we're fucked I mean I just it's all over like night night I've had a really good run I get it though my husband was like okay we're gonna have to rethink everything I absolutely loved it and when they said at the beginning I hope this isn't a spoiler I don't think anybody's gonna watch if they haven't I had to send two people home and I was like no but I can't I can't I can't I cuddle people when they've just been

judged by Craig and they went yeah you can and I did it and my dad was so sweet because he watched I was like you don't have to watch I love you and he was like of course I'm gonna watch and he said oh no you make that face I said what face and he said you made that face when you were four when I go in I'm like a bit oh my god I was like did I he was like yes when that face when you were four. When I go in, I'm like a bit... Oh, my God. I was like, did I? He was like, yes, when I told you you couldn't have an ice cream for breakfast. I was like, oh, OK. But I love them, but I also know too much.

So I know I can't be close to them. I can't go really near them. And they kept on trying to separate me. OK. But I love them for taking part. But the most important thing in that show is the game and they have to be allowed to play the game so me going in going you're not gonna believe it I mean my favorite moment talking about earpiece I've got an earpiece on there but it's closed I don't

hear the gallery but it's just in case they need to say but Sarah who's my boss there she never really talks to me and I was in the round table I just sort of have to disappear into the wall yes and I let it all happen and when two traitors turned on another traitor there's just a little voice Sarah in my ear and she just said what's your breathing oh my god and I was like this is not nothing wow i don't know what this is but this is something okay so i'm all i'm not going to give a spoiler alert because i if you haven't watched it you really should and i don't want to ruin your enjoyment my favorite bit is when one of the traitors who has played such a blinder of a game you see that facade crack and you comfort that person but in an entirely appropriate way which is you've played this game really well it's about gameplay so it was a such

an extraordinary show to do because sometimes I just wanted the faithful to get them but then sometimes I just wanted the traitors to win you don't take sides or maybe you do as you watch but when you're standing there and you're in the middle of it for me for the crew you love them all but you respect more than anything is really good gameplay and that's what wins do you think it taught you something about stepping into that kind of powerful dark side that you had when you were four when you couldn't get ice cream and that you yeah you could embrace again in your 50s I mean I imagine if you ask my kids can she is she always smiley and friendly they'd be like no because when they haven't done their homework or if they haven't tidied their room or if they haven't said please

or thank you if they haven't cleared their plates I get a bit traitorsy on them well I don't make them wear a cloak yeah but I can be quite strict no I absolutely loved it I think the thing about traitors which really scared me and I think that's what people tapped into is we are told all our lives to trust our gut aren't't we? I've definitely been told as a woman and by both my parents and all my friends. It's all we say, trust your gut. You will know if he's the one, if it's the right dry cleaners,

if this is the flat you should rent, whatever it is, just trust your gut. And what Trace's teaches you is your gut knows nothing. And you can't always trust it because your best friend might be lying to you it pulled the floor out from under me just to watch that because your friendships are very important the most important and it's the one thing that you're not self-deprecating about I think is that you know you have worked at your female friendships and they are extremely

important to you and they've worked too but we don't take it for granted and I love them and if you said what are you proud of I can't be proud of anything I mean I'm quite proud of the way I roast a chicken quite uh did you bread sauce no I don't and I almost want to leave I'm sorry to solid no I know I actually know that it's the character of law in me that I love it do you love it it's a weird thing from school where the chicken at school wasn't great but the bread sauce because we'll always be relied upon because it was always from the same packet and was quite tasty yes so I love packet bread sauce oh you're adorable

I'm so glad you haven't walked out thank you no of course I wouldn't you're quite proud of how you raised but I you know but proud isn't that but of course I'm not but I do I love my girls I love my friendships. They're everything. And you have to look after them. Dolly Alderton, who's a genius. She's a genius. And I read what she said once.

And I realized that we've been doing that, which is you treat them like you do when you're in the relationship with the same love and the same care. And no, we said we were having dinner. We're having dinner. Or I'm coming around to yours. Or if something bad happens to anyone, we call it a state of emergency. And it's down

tools. Okay, your failures, you've done that very, very generous thing of sending me many, many failures. I know, you can choose whichever your email itself was just an art form. Let's start with movement and then we'll go on to sleep. So why have you chosen movement as one of your failures? I mean, I've got lots. And also I just think we should give a scattergun. Like I'm not good at fun. I'm not good at change. I'm not good at, yeah, new.

I'm not good at impulsiveness. I'm not good at anything, but I'm really bad at movement. I have never moved. And I'm not good at impulsiveness. I'm not good at anything, but I'm really bad at movement. I have never moved. And I'm 51. My body, I mean, I'd almost like to show you my stomach. It's like it's made of crepe. It's like layers and layers of weirdness. So only last week I tried Pilates.

What's that all about? Yeah, I'm not a huge Pilates fan. Do you do movement? You're asking the wrong person. I do. You look amazing. You look amazing. No, I don't. It's not fan. Do you do movement? You're asking the wrong person. I do. You look amazing. You look amazing. No, I don't.

It's not even about what you look like. Who cares? Like, I want to be in bed. It's about strength. I don't have any strength. I can't open a jar. I can't open. I needed eye drops last week.

An eye drop. I can't do it. I try it. I make a noise. I do a special chant. I bang it on something. I can barely brush my teeth. Do you think part of that is to do with growing up when we did so it's like 80s 90s I'm much older than you I

love the fact that you're putting us in the same pocket are you are you insane no I could be your grandmother shut up I'm about to be 45 and you're 51 I feel like but I was born in 72 I asked for a crochet set from I suppose you're not a millennial. No. I'm on the cusp. I'm Gen X, geriatric millennial cusp. No, I, yes, maybe we never moved. And I don't have a garden.

But I know I have to. I know I have to for longevity, for everything, for my head, for my body, for all of it. I need to do, I even just go for a walk. But I also think because we grew up in a culture where it wasn't cool to say, I'm going to the gym. Do you remember? Like in the late 90s, early 2000s, if you exercise regularly, it seemed a bit odd. Yes. And there was this sense that you had to naturally look a certain way, but it came very easily to you. Yes.

Yes, that kind of effortless, what, this old thing? Exactly. These abs. Yes. Yes. That kind of effortless, what this old thing. Exactly. These abs. Yes. And at the same time as that was happening, there was this heroization of grunge culture and extreme thinness. And I wonder if also part of not wanting to move was rebellion against that. Like actually fuck all that. I'm going to look how I look. I'm going to feel how I feel. Yes. I think that's absolutely right. That's A. B, have you ever been to a gym? Yes. It's the most depressing thing. I went once as a taster. I went to Fitness First.

And by the way, I think Fitness First is very good. I'm not sagging them off. As gyms go, I'm sure it's fine. Big open thing down the stairs and you hear machines there are people everywhere already I'm practically agoraphobic then I mean I'm not but for what are you an introvert yes I love being by myself and I love who I love ditto I'm not 21 I think I said to my mum my sim card's full I'd only had a phone for six months I was like I'm done I'm done. But I'm married to an extrovert, constantly. God, you're not going to believe. I just met a lovely man. He lives in Leicester.

He said, would we go up? I said, yes. What's he talking about? Okay, we're going to come on to that failure next. But the movement thing, so you've now realised that you have to. Yes, and I would like people to let you and I know through the power of podcast world of what I should do. I went to a spin class.

I like that. I've now introduced weight training, which I love. Now, who do you do this with? I do this with a lovely man called Luke. Luke? Yes. Can I have Luke's number? 100% I'll put you in touch I've been working with him for a year and I wanted to feel stronger I want to feel strong this is what am I going to Luke's yes you're going to go to Luke

well I'll hook you up afterwards you've already hooked me up with a spray to hand woman before we started recording you are going to when you Sophia, you are going to resign from life. And you're going to go, thanks very much. You're going to say to your husband, babe, change of plan. I'm going to just stay at home and have spray tans. We are still teaching each other slides though. I can't wait. But the weight training thing is super interesting because I think I always felt that exercise,

capital E exercise, had to feel like it was a nightmare. Like it was about to expire every single day i don't want to do that yes i thought it had to feel like that in order to be good for me yes such a weird dysfunctional way thing which is why i did a lot of cardio but hated it yeah i hate weight training i actively enjoy and you it's not cardio as, you'll get a cardio benefit because your heart rate goes up. But it's all about sort of strength, leanness, feeling empowered. Arms. Arms. At 51, if I wave at somebody, my arm continues to move for another month after it.

Like, hi, I just need, yeah, okay. Do you actually not care about how you look? Or is that a front? I don't care about what I look like. Have you seen me? You're gorgeous. No, I'm disgusting. No, you actually not care about how you look or is that a front I don't care about what I look like have you seen me you're gorgeous no I'm disgusting no you're not I mean I want to look the same I don't mean I want to look the same I don't mind getting aged I want to look orange black eyes tippex mouth and let it all decay around me I don't want to suddenly go do you know what I'm throwing on a gloss and a bit of blush I don't want to change what, do you know what? I'm throwing on a gloss and a bit of blush. I don't want to change what I do.

I want to get decrepit looking the same. But what I look like, I mean, my mum always said, what you look like, that's not the thing. That can't be the thing. So we didn't have any mirrors growing up. I had no idea what I looked like. So it's part of that opting out of a culture that does seem increasingly to be

about appearance. Well, I don't understand social media and I'm not being rude about it because this will be on social media and I'll post and you'll post and it can be absolutely fantastic. And I love watching it because I watch baby goats and I watch a teddy bear cooking. And I don't know what account that is, but we should all follow it. And I like it for fashion because I'm obsessed by fashion. So I can watch all of the fashion shows just on my phone. So I'm not being anti just for being a dick sake, but I don't really understand

being able to see yourself all the time. And I often, you know, when the kids have been playing my phone, but the cameras switch round and I have to call somebody or I'm making a call and I'm like, I don't understand why Ozzy Osbourne, I didn't even invite him round. And then I'm like, I don't understand why Ozzy Osbourne. I didn't even invite him round.

And then I'm like, oh, it's me. Yeah, I'd like to be in the dark about all of that. And also I've always had terrible eyesight. So which is going back to the blurriness of the paintings I like and the blurriness of how I'd really like life to be, which is no overhead lights, just a 17th century is where I would have absolutely smashed it well I'm not that keen on tulips I wouldn't have said that then obviously but like a lit candle

and everything just being a bit fuzzy around the outside so I was born I think I was minus 15 so I've never really been able to see my face oh my it's all guesswork I had no idea yeah so you wear heavy duty contact lenses I had a couple of operations since then because I was just yeah banging into walls but yeah now I wear lenses or glasses or whatever but I can't everything is ish it's just a vague idea which is how I'd like to live one of my best friends mum's best friend I know this is a long story, went to Specsavers, had her eyes fixed, had the laser. And she's quite sexy in her 70s, like sort of blousy, like great hair, just a sort of attitude. Went, had her eyes fixed, went home, looked at herself in the mirror and looked at her house with sharp focus.

Went back to Specsavers and said, you've got to put it back. Did they? I think they just laughed at her. But she was just like, no, no, I don't want to live in, that's what I was saying before, I don't want to live in perfect land. I want to live in fuzzy world. Fascinating. Yeah.

And explain so much. That was really profound. Your children, how old are they now? They're so good. Hello. 20, 17, 12. And so has that had an impact on how you've raised them to not care about? I try my hardest.

I try my hardest. But also, I'm ancient and annoying in their eyes, correctly, and embarrassing. So as much as my daughter goes, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, no, I know, it doesn't matter. And then she'll go like, mum, what do you think of this highlighter? And I get it. Yeah it yeah but yeah they are edible hello it's Elizabeth Day here you're probably sick of the sound of my voice, but here I am again. I hope you're enjoying the finale episode of season 18 of How to Fail. And I wanted to pop on here to let you know that if you simply can't get enough of me, I'm going on tour next year to tie in with the paperback publication of my latest book, Friendaholic, Confessions of a Friendship Addict. It is a

journey through friendship, both personal and also evolutionary. And I unpack a lot of the significance of friendship and what other people have said about it. And my favourite thing is to take a book on the road in this way and get to open up these conversations to a wider audience and get to meet so many of you. I can't wait. These live shows are so, so special. I did a whole pile around the publication of the hardback. I've done live shows with How to Fail before. And it is so unique because the atmosphere that is created by all of you lovely listeners and all of you lovely audience members is just so tantalisingly intimate. Gosh, that sounds rather exciting. But what I mean by that is that it sort of ends up being a really safe space for us to share what we've all learned from friendships

and failures in our lives. So I would love to see you there. You can go to www.fane.co.uk forward slash elizabeth hyphen day for all of the info that's www.fane.co.uk forward slash elizabeth hyphen day I am doing Derry which I'm super excited because that's where I grew up. I'm doing Dublin. I'm doing Chester, which is also being streamed online if you can't make it in person. I'm doing the London Palladium, one of my favourite venues. The Assembly Room's Edinburgh. And for the first time, I'm coming to Bristol. So have a look. It's all happening in March 2024.

And I hope very much to see you there. There will also be a link in the show notes. Now back to Claudia. Your second failure is sleep. Yes. So I'm a sleep fanatic. It's really, are you? Love sleep. How many hours do you get? Well, I can tell you this. Do you have an aura ring? No, I hate tracking, which we'll also talk about, but my husband loves tracking yeah and he recently was influenced by another podcast one of those man's podcasts into buying a sleep topper like a mattress

topper that tracks your sleep but not only that you can choose what temperature you want your side of the bed to be what are you talking about I was okay I was very very anti it because I don't like being tracked but then I started getting a 98 99 percent scores once I got a perfect 100 and I was very, very anti it because I don't like being tracked. But then I started getting 98, 99% scores once I got a perfect 100. And I was like, I am nailing sleep. And I basically get eight hours a night. What time do you get into bed? I wish it were earlier. But I tend to go to sleep around 11.

But I'll get into bed at sort of 10.30 and read. Yes. Yes. Anyway. I'm so happy for you. I'll also give you the details of 10 30 and read yes yes anyway I'm so happy for you I'll also give you the details of that mattress topper yeah well also because I married a Dane he likes it freezing I like it freezing oh I like it boiling oh yeah I say I'll often go to bed with wearing two pairs of socks okay super hot so you're a sleep fanatic I'm a sleep fanatic I've always slept I nap all

the time in fact I had all my family around for lunch yesterday and it was adorable, hence the roast chicken comment. And I had a nap while they were there, while they were all in the room. And there's 10 of us. Bah, bah, bah, this, can you pass me that? Oh, blah, blah. And I was like, guys, just got to get some shut-eye. Lied on the sofa, had a little sleep, then woke up.

And how long is a nap? Oh, it can be 15. I can't go over 35 i'm not i'm not ill but because then that then you're messing then you feel terrible yeah and also then you're messing with your and also i don't close the curtains i've got very strict nap rules that i could really bore you with but i don't get under the covers i'm happy to use an old towel or a well you don't hang up that's another failure I've never hung up a towel, apparently. I said to my husband, failures. And he went, buckle up.

Anyway, the main one was 25 years of marriage. I've never hung up a towel. Whatever, we survive. That's not my thing, turns out. So I love sleep. And then lockdown and I must be very menopausal. I'm 51. Meant that I wasn't sleeping well enough.

And I spoke to my girlfriend and she said, what you need is some CBD capsules. I was like, what are you talking about? What does that even mean? I don't even drink caffeine. That all feels quite risky. And she said, no, you're going to love it. And then I discovered Cannery and I love them so much.

So I sort of followed them around. It's really embarrassing. Found out where they lived, started wearing yellow. Anyway, I love them and it's really helped my sleep. Thank goodness. So Canarae are a CBD brand and you're launching a new range with them of candles. Yes, candles. Lip balm.

How do you feel about lip balm? I love lip balm. But I used it so much at one point in my life that I became allergic to a specific kind. Not allergic, you became an addict. Do you mean? I think I became an addict and then yeah and then i just sort of i just my lips started reacting again was it comics no i love i use comics every single day do i do and other lip brands are available i don't know why i said

that i'm not on the bbc not like you yeah but i suddenly panic is that vaseline no it was vaseline yes it was the lanolin I think that was the thing. Okay. Anyway, the can of Ray-Lip balm that you designed is amazing. You are going to, and I know this is bad, you might defecate. All I want you to see... Not because of the CBD. No, because you're going to love it so much.

You're going to go, how did I... Yeah, they're really, really sweet. And I love them. And they were like, I said, it's got to be minty. It's got to be tingly. It's got to be slightly medicinal. Like, let's not dilly-dally. we're not just putting a film on our mouths and going about our day and it's in a little beautiful sort of black circular anyway I love it and there's

a hand cream that's been designed around your own penchant for putting hand cream on while you drive yeah bad I really shouldn't drive for my eyesight I don't drive a lot but I love my car so I love it whoopsie sometimes I drive and that's where I'll put hand cream on I'm never going to walk around the house going do you know what I need a bit of hand cream but if there's one in the car or one in your bag when you're on the tube I'm on the central line a lot fine so did it sort your sleep out the cb yes it's much better because if i haven't slept then sometimes things feel just too much you know if i haven't had a good night's sleep and i go down and one of the kids goes mum have we got any ketchup because they've cooked some bacon or

something if i haven't slept i'll be like we don't even have i don't need to do a lot if i've slept well mum we got any ketchup no no we haven't but why don't need to do a lot. If I've slept well, mum, have we got any ketchup? No, no, we haven't. But why don't you use HP? Yeah, all right. It just absolutely changes my whole outlook. See, impartial. BBC impartiality there. Did you see?

Had to. Panicked. Wanted to mention daddy sauce. Got to mention three. My body was shaking. Daddy sauce, stop. I once went on Gabby Logan's podcast. Is it bad that I'm mentioning that? She's adorable. I love Gabby Logan and I love that podcast. And I've been on Gabby Logan's podcast. Is it bad that I'm mentioning that?

No, I love Gabby Logan and I love that podcast. And I've been on it myself. And she said, what do you want to talk about? Because it was about midlife or getting old or whatever. And I said, sleep. And she had a sleep expert on there. And he said what I've always believed, which is it doesn't matter when you get it.

So it might, like last night, I was asleep at, I think, 9.45. I'm now getting to bed at 8 you're dealing with I mean I love it more than life itself and I was reading you know trying to lick the little child he doesn't want me to do that anymore it's super weird and then I woke up super early so after this I will have a bit of shut eye and they said don't worry about when you get it and that made me relax because I was always taught that you had to get enough sleep before midnight. Were you ever taught that? Yes, I was taught that.

I was taught that. I probably get most of my sleep before midnight because I get into bed so early, because I'm allergic to going out. Would you ever do an early morning breakfast show if you were offered it? Have you ever done one? No, I'd be terrible. Okay. You mentioned there that if you don't get enough sleep, you get a bit weepy potentially.

Do you ever get angry? I rarely get angry. you don't get enough sleep, you get a bit weepy potentially. Do you ever get angry? I rarely get angry. I don't like anger. I mean, I think it's happened twice. It made me feel uncomfortable. No, not my bag. Are you conflict avoidant? Yes.

No, I mean, I don't. No, I think so. I would prefer always to apologize and just make anything better what's the thing that makes you most angry is it injustice yeah injustice or somebody being not to me but to somebody I love yeah I'll rip their heart out one of your many other failures so your third failure but it's not your final one, parties. Rubbish, aren't they? Absolute bullshit. And the faster we can...

No, by the way, I'm just rubbish. I like sitting down. Yes. Going back to the testing, if you say, or liking exams, when I'm in Manchester dealing with the five people, because you can't make it, if I could sit down with them anywhere, any coffee shop or a restaurant, or if I was coming to somebody's house for dinner, if I can sit down, it's fine. What I can't do is the standing up when people are talking to you, but they're looking over your shoulder.

You're trying to hold a bowl and you've got a clutch bag and you're in a high heel. By the way, I didn't like it when I know I just sound very old. I didn't like it in my 20s. The first nightclub I ever went to, by the way, I was like 22. It's so embarrassing because I was in no rush because I was reading and just being a turd. And I went with my girlfriend and she says this now. It was like wild and fun. I think it was called the Limelight.

I'd never got into a nightclub before. We were all in London. Everyone was dancing. We were literally just wearing bras and like it should have been amazing. And I walked in and I turned to her something and I went that's a trip hazard and she went babe should we go home I mean yeah let's go home got a kebab went home was home by 10 so all I'm saying is I'm just not very good at them there are people who are excellent so many of my friends they love it they and I like getting dressed up I like doing makeup I like chatting to my girls.

I would just prefer to do it in a Nando's. Okay. Do you celebrate your birthday? I like getting older because I think that always feels like a win. So I loved 50. I love 51. I didn't understand people are like, oh, my God, don't let me look at that. I don't want to get 40.

I mean, it's all coming, right? The train has left the station if we're lucky so I like that but I don't really like the attention which doesn't make sense because look what I do for a living but that's different isn't it because I'm not saying that you adopt a persona because you don't you're yourself but there's something about the formula of it that feels protective I suppose yes and also when I do that it's not about me it's either who's a traitor or who's a faithful or who's just done a dance that's going to be worth a 10 it's not on me I'm just a conduit I'm there to be helpful yeah I've found this thing

and I'm not comparing us for a second but occasionally I've done how to fail live shows yeah in theatres yeah and that never feels to me as draining as going to a party yes and I think it's because first of all it's a self-selecting audience but I genuinely feel like I'm having a one-on-one conversation with everyone there there's an intimacy to it yes do you like parties it's such a good question because I think I have wanted to like parties and attempted to convince myself that I do for a very long time and I think I enjoy having thrown a good party yes I like in retrospect yes I don't actually know and this is a very recent realization how much I enjoy the party when I'm in it and I'm not I don't know if I do but I think I enjoy a

party more than a dinner I love a dinner I love a dinner if it's people that are my intimate circle that I do if it's like a dinner party where you have to make a lot of conversation to a number of people but it's I think with a party you can get away with not having to talk I think that's the thing yeah sometimes I just because of what I do for a living I suppose yes I find talking exhausting yes do you ever get like that no I know I like a chat I like a chat sorry I don't know what I'm saying about myself and it's not about no no it is it's interesting but also because you are a brilliant interviewer and because you are innately curious I imagine that you sitting down at a dinner you're not satisfied unless you know absolutely everything exactly and that can be exhausting and I want to get very deep which I know that you are very good at your you are deep

I love you said to me before we started recording by the way I'm not going to be serious about anything no I don't like being serious if I'm being filmed. If we're not being filmed, I'll go wherever you are. Oh, really? Okay. Okay, fine. Well, I'll hold you to that. But yeah, so tell me about your dinner parties. I like feeding people.

So I like people coming round. I like making an enormous pie. I like filling them with booze, pie, cheese and all of that. And I like, I think maybe it's just about being seated. Yes. As I analyse, I want to be comfy. When you start doing weights, you'll be a party animal. I'm not very good at small talk is what I genuinely think.

I'm not interested in, I talk is what I genuinely think yes I'm not interested in I don't care how my summer was yeah and I so I can't reiterate what did you do oh we stayed in the UK I think that's what we're both getting at oh where's your kid oh he's at uni yeah was that hard I can't do that can I sit down with people and go you scared of death yeah yeah yes ditto that I can do yes I can't do the former I'm not good at it okay oh this has been really cathartic I feel like I've learned something and I'm delighted thank you but how do you deal with fame in that I'm not famous I think you are and then by the way as I said no it's not even that uncomfortable I don't mean to be a dick, because there's nothing worse than...

I'm on the central line four times a day. Four times. And it's very hot at the moment, by the way. It's always hot. Yeah, but I like it being warm. But today, it was unmanageable. It's very muggy at the moment. I never recognise.

I can go anywhere. I do think, and this might sound ridiculous, I think it's a decision you make. I was brought up by journalists, so I am always on the journalist's side, strangely. So I know that they might want to write something, but I don't do red carpet. I don't feel famous. I feel incredibly lucky for the job that I do. Is that annoying? No, not annoying at all.

I'm just being completely honest. I'm not saying it in a kind of... I'm not. There are other people who are just famous. How do you think you cope with that if you were Beyonce, for instance, and people were recognising you on the central line? Beyonce doesn't travel on the central line, although I think she would enjoy it. And we would carry her on a sedan chair, should she ever wish, to get off at Moorgate. Moorgate's Northern Line, my mistake. I think huge fame must be debilitating. But, you know, with huge fame often comes money.

So you can build yourself nice walls and get a cab wherever you want. And I don't think it would be bad, but I'm pleased I'm not. When people do recognise you, what do they generally say? Oh, I can tell you exactly what they say. Please sign this for me, Davina. That's what they say. I swear to God. And she has it too. And I love that woman more than life itself. And I was properly, probably when somebody was sort of slightly startled and I was like, it's happened. I mean, I was humming the Strictly theme tune and wearing sequins, but no, I wasn't. I was in a bookshop. I was in foils and somebody went, oh my God, please, will you sign something? And I was like, of I wasn't I was in a bookshop I was in foils and somebody went oh my god please will you sign something and I was like of course and I was like here we go guys

because I've always thought my life maybe was just funded by my parents so that I would feel good about myself oh yeah like the Truman show like the Truman show like Strictly's not on or Strictly's there but it's hosted by somebody else and like the Traitors was just made up and you are an excellent Elizabeth Day look-alike where yes darling good luck with the podcast and they've just done it so that i feel happy and i said well how do you want me to sign or what's your name and she went oh my god i've always loved you davina my name's lucy so i said to lucy love to mean so you see kind you're very kind again you didn't want to disillusion her. So final question on this. You mentioned that your husband is an extrovert.

Does he want to go to parties? Not that much anymore, but he did. You've ground him down. Yeah, I've ground him down. He did, but it's good for both of us because if I was married to somebody like me, I wouldn't have even been here today. I would just be at home and we'd be like making toast

and lying in bed. And I think it's good for him that he has married somebody as dull as me so I can go mate we don't want to do that I read I can't believe I used the word mate I've never called him mate maybe it's a new sex thing putting that in my back pocket I read that he's Danish is he actually Danish or is his family Danish yeah he's super Dane so tell me about the Danes the Danes are magical I'm not just saying this no they are I tell you what they are there is no he we've been together 25 years he's never asked me what's for dinner once so in Denmark I think paternity leave is the same as maternity leave so it's not my job it is our job to try and look after these little puffins and

make sure the house is sort of in some semblance tidy and all of these things so I'm very grateful for that I'm not saying non-Danes are horrible I know lots of men from BBC impartiality again no no but I really mean it I'm not saying lots of my friends are married blokes from around the corner and they are super charming. But anyway, I'm lucky that I have that. The Danes itself, his family in Denmark, what I love about them, and again, this is a mass generalisation, I hope I'm not offending anyone, is life is not about stuff.

It's not about they have one pale sweater, one dark sweater, something for going out, fancy, and life is all about experience. And whether it's holidays or seeing something majestic or going to a beautiful gallery or going out with friends and eating amazing food or I'm obsessed by playing bridge, Chris and I. Love bridge. What I would like to do is give up all work

and go on the bridge circuit. But I'm not good enough. He's very good. But anyway, so if it was bridge, that's what they would do. So I like that whole ethos so when the killing was on yeah could he understand it without the subtitles he could understand it I know so he I thought I could understand it without the subtitles because I thought I watched so much of it that I was now fluent in Danish incorrect god how good was that show do you you remember? Her sweater.

Everything about that show was so revolutionary. It was like The Traitors was like that for reality TV. That's how I feel about it. No, that's how I feel about it. No, I love the fact that you said that.

Okay, living in the present we've got now is one of your failures. I have so many. I know, but it's so delightful. How long is this podcast going to be? An hour. We've got ten minutes left.

Okay, I'm so sorry. I feel apologised to be an hour we've got 10 minutes left okay I'm so sorry I feel apologized to your how lovely of you and how generous of you don't give me so many well I don't live in the present at all so I can tell you what my children will be eating on the third Thursday in February chipolatas in brackets herbed close bracket I don't live for now enough. So I just booked my summer holiday, August 24th. Yeah. It's a week away. I've booked where we're sitting on the plane. Okay.

It's row 20. Okay. I'm totally into it. I'm not sure whether that's normal, but I think I live way too much in the future. A future I hope that everybody is healthy and fine for. I don't want to take it for granted. It makes me nervous.

That was movement. Well done. That's you for the week. I just lent. Yeah. We're done for the month, guys. Relax. We just lent to touch words.

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I think that's a failure. I see lots of my friends who are, my cousin who's just brilliant and sexy and smart and fantastic. She was the one who introduced me to Canary. If she knew I was with you, she would phone up and go, there's this amazing Korean restaurant.

It's open just outside London. Let's go for lunch. Should we cycle there? What? Yes. I can plan for that kind of event in March. You know, and I wish I could live for now because I see people do it all the time and it looks super fun. And the planning for the event in March or the planning for the holiday in August, is part of that because you need time to think yourself into it?

I like looking forward to things more than the things. OK. So I love, people say Christmas decorations are going up too soon. If it was me, they'd start in July. Christmas Day, fine. Christmas Eve, fine. I mean, it's all fine. But I love making the Christmas cake, talking to my little one, going,

if we make gingerbread this year and we don't make snowflakes, is it wrong that I'm in the mood for Christmas squirrels? No, Mummy, I think that's an excellent idea. Should we think about how we could make a stencil? Yes, would the squirrels wear bow ties, Mummy? I think they might. And would they have buttons on their waistcoats? I think they might.

I mean, we do that every year. I don't know where the gingerbread ends up, and I do. Burnt at the end of a plate. That's what I'm saying. Do you do the same? I do for different reasons. Go on, what is your reason? I think I like to feel that I have an illusory control

over the chaos of the universe. Yes, I think that's right. Yes. I'm like you. If someone said, let's cycle to a Korean restaurant right now, I'd be like, I just can't fit that in. I can't.

There's no, I can't compute. By the way, even though I'm not doing anything else. Yes. I'm only chatting to you and napping today. Yes. I definitely do have time to cycle to a new restaurant. But you're probably in a delightful fizz of anticipation about not doing anything. Yes, I am.

Yes. Yeah. I wonder many things about it, but I'm'm sorry i'm going to try and get serious again no i like it what we were talking about at the beginning about your parents and where they came from yeah the future isn't guaranteed and there must be an enormous amount of anxiety and trauma that we carry around if we have that in our history is there something there that is connected do you think i don't come on no I love you I don't think I can take that on because that would be unfair to them and what happened to their family I think I

am a possibly yes I'm controlling and I can't control much I want to make sure that my kids have the best day two of them are at school one is at university that's all I need four o'clock great day did my homework at lunch got on brilliantly with my friends yeah I think I am going to do chemical engineering that is all I want but seemingly I can't control that hopefully but we all know that doesn't happen every day but if I can book a week away at the end of August I don't know it just makes me feel good yeah and almost if no if one of your kids had a bad day you could say to yourself we've got that week in August and then we everything will be lovely and we'll rectify it I have one friend who does the same I love her so much she's called Celia she already texted me I'm going to spend New Year's together

we'll be asleep at two minutes past 12 but all our kids are friends she already has texted me going are we doing jacket potatoes or boiled new i love that shit i mean that is erotic to me yes jacket we've gone for just in case if anyone's listening who wouldn't go for jacket by the way with a mountain of grated cheese in a separate bowl delicious and butter salted okay oh we've already had a conversation yes of course you can of grated cheese in a separate bowl. Delicious. And butter? Salted. Okay. Oh, can I not? We've already had a conversation. Yes, of course you can. I can't advise. Of course you can.

Does the reality always live up to the anticipation? No. Does it never live up to the anticipation? It does sometimes. Sometimes. It does sometimes, but it is problematic when you've already lived it in your head.

So the week away, I've already decided what I'm taking. I've never bought summer clothes, by the way, because I don't believe in summer. So I still have the swimming costume. No word of a lie that I had at school. A Speedo. Can't fit into it.

It's disgusting. It's a racerback. But that's how I feel about summer clothes. But I've already packed. Well, there's a whole life to live before August 24. And all kinds of things, I hope good, will happen. But lots of things bad might happen because I would like your listeners because they will be wiser than me to tell me what this means

yes because I wonder how you cope then when something happens that you haven't anticipated that is chaotic and difficult well you get through it and you get through it with them and with the love and care of those that are around you so I suppose it's not about avoiding that I think I love having things to look forward to that's part of the fun for me yes does that make any sense it makes total sense however when I have in my 51 years of life I think it it's happened twice, had an impromptu night out with Hot Cousin. We ended up in Hull. It was fantastic. I can't tell you any more than that, but it was filthy and fantastic. It wasn't Hull. I can't remember where it was. I think it was Watford. Anyway,

just as good. They have been amazing times, but I guess I'm just a bit controlly and weird well I also wonder how live television fits into this because that is all about being in the moment you have to be in the actual moment and so maybe you have so much of it maybe that you don't need it in the rest of your life so do you know what you're doing I'm just interested I love this for Christmas New Year and next summer yes not New Year okay but yeah we, New Year and next summer? Yes, not New Year. Okay. But yeah, we've just... Well, New Year, you're coming to mine.

Yes, that's why I left it open, obviously. Of course, yeah. A bit like you, my default is always not to do anything. So I love the idea of not doing anything on New Year's Eve. So I like the idea that there's a space, not doing anything with you and salted butter. Yeah. We are not doing anything, by the way. We'll be in pyjamas.

Okay. I will be there. We have booked our holiday. You see? Yeah. Is that your husband? That's my husband. But I'm thrilled that he has.

Yeah. I don't know. I'm a curious mixture in the sense that up to 35, I was very much like you in the sense of sort of planning ahead and getting a great deal of comfort from that then I got divorced and loads of stuff that I hadn't planned for happened and like not having babies having unsuccessful fertility treatment all of that and that put me in a place of fear but it also on the on the flip side of that fear I realized there was opportunity and possibility by by having space and so now I'm in between the two states in a way like I'm really

talking about career stuff now yeah I like being able to be instinctive when I'm offered a work opportunity yes and say yes to it I think this is perfect what you are because you have both I think you're perfect how you are you are. You must never change. But you know what's interesting is going back to what we talked about before, which is my hatred of perfect. Yes. It's quite weird then that I'm trying to book this. Exactly.

It is quite weird. Yeah, the fuzzy vision that you have, but you want to be 2020 about the future. Yes. But by the way, I will also say this the holiday the end of August that I will not be posting us all in matching outfits yeah and there can be an argument between my three kids or there can be sort of mild dicky tummies after the first night I'm not trying to create a perfect holiday yes but I like the fact that it's booked yeah maybe that's just freelancing exactly i was about to say it's probably because you're so busy that you and

family i'm getting the impression is the preeminently important the only thing yeah so you need to book time to yes that happen yeah god i love chatting to you i love chatting to you this is so fun good okay how long we've got one minute left well we can go over it's fine I'm so grateful you had me I'm so grateful that you came on thank you so much I have really really wanted you on for absolutely ages I find any interaction I have with you a joy we have occasionally found each other at those parties that we hate and you've always been so lovely to me and you know the thing that I always think about you you remember who I am even when I was no I even when I was at those not very

nice parties as a plus one and I wasn't anyone you always remembered who I was and I just that was such a silly you remembered who I was mark of your character let's end with your dad because you said to me at the beginning of this podcast that he thinks failure is wonderful he loves failure I mean he's a genius he is I'm not just saying that but everything he says is correct everything and he taught me and so my sister very early on that coming last was okay and And in fact, it was more than okay, it was important. Because you couldn't and shouldn't be the best. It's really good when other people are better than you. And you should revel in them. I hate comparing and contrasting because of him and my mom, I just don't do it. There'll always be somebody better looking and

smarter and funnier and sexier and brighter. And isn't that amazing how lucky we are that we can just listen and be around their glow? Full stop. And it sounds as though he and your mum always made you feel totally loved exactly as you are. Exactly how I am. I could do anything. There is no judgment. None. And they really used to look after my kids. And I remember I said to my mum once, because I said, look, I like this, or, you know, I was this kind of a, if I'd said, we're only feeding Tilda purple food, and she goes to

bed at midnight. And then if it's okay, could you wake her up with, I don't know, whatever, broccoli spears on your head, she would go, got it, on it. Who does that? They're just the best parents. Did you tell your dad you were coming on a podcast called How to Fail? I did. And he said, well, that's excellent. Good girl. If you sent a list, I said, I've only sent about eight. And he went, well, I'm sure you can think of more in the proudest way possible. Because isn't that what the whole thing is yes admitting this is what I'm rubbish at admitting and learning and

sharing and laughing and just being a wonderful human Claudia Winkleman thank you so much for having me I've loved every minute. If you enjoyed this episode of How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, I would so appreciate it if you could rate, review and subscribe. Apparently it helps other people know that we exist.