How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S2, Ep2 How to Fail: Mishal Husain

Episode Date: October 10, 2018

The wonderful Mishal Husain joins How To Fail With Elizabeth Day this week, which I'm very excited about because she's basically my long-time woman crush.Husain, who has been presenting Radio 4’s flagship Today programme since 2013 and is also one of our most recognisable and respected television broadcasters, joins me to talk about failing at university admissions, failing to get what she thought was her dream job, failing to ask the right questions in interviews and beating herself up about it afterwards. Along the way, we discuss racism, the impossibility of women 'having it all', the unhelpful narrative of 'the superwoman', her first book, The Skills, the gender pay gap and why she feels she's only ever as good as her last broadcast.WARNING: This episode contains evidence of Elizabeth attempting to speak dodgy GCSE Russian. How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate Books The Skills by Mishal Husain is out now. Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayMishal Husain @MishalHusainBBCChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks        Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better.

I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. I'm joined today by the brilliant broadcaster and my long-time girl crush, Michelle Hussain. Hussain has been presenting Radio 4's flagship Today programme since 2013, and is also one of our most recognisable and respected television broadcasters, fronting everything from evening news bulletins to leadership election debates. In 2017, she was also the broadcaster who scooped everyone else and got the first interview with Prince Harry and his new fiancée, Meghan Markle. This year marks the publication of

Hussein's first book, The Skills, a fiercely intelligent and practical guide for professional women. She was prompted to write it, she says, by acknowledging the gap between how everything appears on the outside and how I will be feeling on the inside. For many of us, Hussein appears the epitome of cool-headed confidence. But as we're about to discover, this has been a skill honed not just through success, but through the failure she has experienced too. So welcome, Michelle. Thank you for coming. It's great to be with you, Elizabeth. That thing that I quoted, that gap in perception about how you appear on the outside and how you actually feel on the inside can you talk to us a bit about that yes and I think it was really in

fact I know it was really working on the today program that brought all of that home to me because it's the most exacting job I've ever done the most demanding job I've ever done it's not just the level that you have to operate at, but it's the scrutiny that goes with that, that I found really difficult. And I still find difficult, but it has changed over time. And I think had I not been put under that sort of pressure, I never would have been able to fully articulate or maybe even admit to that gap, that I live with doubts about how I'm going to get through the next interview you know nervousness about it all the time and for the most part I managed to channel it towards doing the

best work I can but I've also come to accept that that apprehension will always be a part of what I do and that it probably in my case at least helps me perform but if I don't acknowledge that it's there then I feel that I am part of an illusion, too much of an illusion, an illusion that I think is just not helpful for people who are at an earlier stage of their careers or people who are younger who are probably thinking, well, you know, she always looks like she's managing perfectly to hold it together. And it is different underneath. And I felt this was the right time in my life and my career where I could be honest about that. I love the book. And I'm not just saying that because I'm in it, but also because there's this wonderful bit where you talk about when someone compliments you on an interview you've done, your default being to say, really, do you think so? I don't know if I nailed that.

And I'm not sure that I asked the right questions. Yes. And I still do that to some extent, although I'm much more conscious of it and I fight harder against it. And I don't want to be super self-conscious about what I say in those moments. And I wouldn't want other people to be very self-conscious. But I did just come to think about why is it that I say that? And I think sometimes I'm just making conversation. Sometimes I think it does go back to the way I was brought up. I was brought up in a family where you did not big yourself up and where you always acknowledged where other people had played a role. And these are important things to teach children. And I'm glad that they're a part of who I am. But at the same time, I thought that, in fact, you're also sort of doubting the other

person's judgment in complimenting you in that way. So I've learned, and I hope to one day get to the point where I always do this, to just acknowledge, just say thank you, just be quite measured about it. But don't make that a moment in which you inject doubt into the other person's mind about whether their judgment that that was a good interview or a good moment for whatever reason was quite questionable. Because you talk in the book as well about growing up, when someone paid you a compliment, the response was by the grace of God, mashallah. Yes, or that more if mashallah is mostly used, you know, if someone says, oh, well, you know, if someone had said to my parents, it's great, she's got into a good university,

they would have said, yes, but that happened by the grace of God. But, you know, certainly in terms of your own achievements, if you would often say, alhamdulillah, thanks be to God, those kinds of things. And that's just the way I was brought up. But I just think that should go alongside an ability to own your own achievements and your own successes and whatever it is that you're proud of doing. Well, talking about getting into a good university, that brings us onto your first failure, which is not really a failure because you got into Cambridge, but you were pooled. Can you explain what that means? Yes. And I was thinking about it just the other day, because, you know, we're at that end of summer moment where people are getting their A-level

results. I was really thrilled to have an offer to go to Cambridge in my final year of university. I needed to get three A's in my A-. And I ended up getting two A's and a B. And at that moment, most people are saying to you, oh, I'm sure your college would still have you. But actually, they didn't still want me. And they wanted someone who got three A's in their A levels, and I hadn't. So they rejected me. And I'm not quite sure how that system was. I guess perhaps they were the ones who then put me in this system called the pool, which is an internal system for Cambridge. And of course, it exists across the university sector. But essentially, they put me and I don't know whether this is a I assume in those days, maybe it was actually a room full of files rather than an electronic system. I'm just

trying to imagine what this actually looked like. But they put me into this system where other colleges who had a gap in a particular subject, in my case, law, could go in and look for suitable candidates. And the woman who later became my Director of Studies in Law at Newhall, which is now Murray Edwards, picked me out of the pool, Rosie Thornton, I'm still in touch with her today, and she still lectures in law at Cambridge. And the college made me an offer and I still went to Cambridge. And I'm so grateful for that. I'm so grateful for Newhall believing in me, for me still having a chance to have the extraordinary experience of getting a degree from that university. But I think that pretty much throughout the time I was there, you know, as I cycled down Kings Parade, I could never really look at the college that had rejected me. And I think it bothered me for a long time, even though I know that instead of having what can be a very insular college-based experience, because I went to a women's college and a college that's just slightly out of town, so geographically you're likely to spend a lot

of your time physically in another part of Cambridge. I think I had a much broader and richer experience. For my exams, I wasn't sitting in the college library, I was sitting in the university library, which is a really inspiring place, you know, surrounded by every book that's published in this country. So I know I had a much richer experience, but there's still that part of you that thinks, that knows, because it's true, that that particular college didn't want me. Hard to shake off. Yes. Did it feel like a personal rejection?

It did. And it was a personal rejection. My grades weren't good enough. And, you know, it's not I don't hold anything against them in that way, because it wasn't like they changed their minds for no reason. It's just that I think that these things, they just somehow stay. And in my case, it stayed more in the back of my mind. But when I look back now, I'm actually surprised that it bothered me for as long as it did. And I think it just sort of shows the capacity of these things to just, you know, niggle away at you in ways that you think you're better than or stronger than. And do you think that's partly because you were used to putting in the work and getting the results? I imagine you were very good at school and gifted.

Was this the first time that you hadn't got the right result? Yes, it probably was the first time I'd had that kind of setback. Yes, it was. But I think there was also an element of the only thing I felt was an extra sort of personal angle on it is that couldn't they believe in me? Couldn't they take a chance on me? And I guess that was the bit that just made me particularly feel bad about it but I had a great university experience and I feel lucky to have it because it opened many doors and it's been a you know really important part of my life and actually I think you know maybe who knows if I'd gone to that college it's a small college I love that

you're naming it Corpus Christi for the record I'm not you know I'm sure that there are nice people who are at that college even now no but I think I probably would have had perhaps a more insular Cambridge experience or just certainly my world at that university probably would have been a bit smaller than it than it turned out to be so. And how important was that university in particular to you? What did Cambridge represent? I think Cambridge in many ways, I loved the history of it. I still feel quite emotional and sentimental about being surrounded

by the physical bricks and mortar that have seen centuries of learning. I think I never, ever took that for granted. Cycling around, I sort of felt that sense of privilege and wonder almost every day. And I still feel it now when I go back there. So I think it also opens many doors. In many ways, it's a passport to other things. And of course, it shouldn't be that way.

There are many fantastic universities. But I think it definitely helped give me a leg up and looked good on my CV and all of those things I was very grateful for. And why did you choose law? Well, I chose law, really, I think, I'm sad to say, I think it had quite a lot to do with LA law being on television in the late 1980s. That's the best reason I've ever heard for studying law. I think also, you know, I grew up in a, my parents are both from Pakistan and my father was a doctor. And I grew up with a real sense of, you know,

you couldn't just go to university to just study a subject. You had to be something. And so my parents were keen for me to become a doctor. And it sort of became apparent in my early teens that, you know, that was just not going to happen. I didn't have the aptitude or the interest in science subjects to the degree that I'd need it. And I started to think, okay, well, if it's not going to be that, it better be something else. So I think I was searching for a vocation. And I had, I'd read Helena Kennedy's Life in the Day at the back of the Sunday Times magazine. And I thought, oh, that sounds like, I quite like the sound of that barrister business. I remember writing to her and she very kindly wrote back to me and said, would I like to

come in for some work experience? And for some crazy reason that was totally about me, not her, because she made the offer, it didn't happen. And I did some work experience, well, in a quite stuffy chambers, which I think then rather affected my desire to actually go on to practice law. In answer to your question, I went to university to do law because I thought it might lead to a profession. I could keep my parents happy by them thinking that I was going to become a lawyer, but I was never quite sure. And sometime around my second year, I thought, I think I'd quite like

to give journalism a go. And I had a friend who was at that stage writing off to the BBC for work experience. And I thought, well, I might as well do the same. And he's gone on to make documentaries and do amazing things. And I've ended up working pretty solidly in the BBC newsroom in one way or another. So, yeah, it was a great degree to have, but I was never convinced that I would practice law. And so it turned out. And I remember reading in The Skills, there's a passage where you talk about the fact that you didn't have the confidence to ask questions. Yes, when I think back to those small groups in which you're taught, I mean, there were the big university lectures and then there

were the small groups in which you'd discuss topics and write essays afterwards. And I found those small groups, the lectures as well, but they're so large, no one was asking any questions. But I found those small groups quite intimidating. I mean, I'd done well at school, but then I'm sitting in these supervisions with women and men who I'm just, I'm convinced looking around the room that they're all going to get first and I'm going to get a third. You know, it wasn't until I got to the end of my first year and I got a 2.1 in my exams, I thought, actually, it's okay. I, you know, I was able to hold my own in this setting, but I think I just looked around and thought, I just feel I don't know anything about this subject. But of course, the truth is that particular subject was new to everyone. So

no one arrived knowing anything about that subject. And do you think, I know we've spoken a lot about this in the past, but do you think that is a gender thing and that women are more socially cultured to feel nervous in that particular setting? I have certainly since, through writing the book, thought a lot about how most girls are brought up and the kinds of imagery and stereotyping that surrounds us from a really young age, and how it, in many cases, and probably less so now than it was when we were growing up, because I think there's a lot more awareness around this, but I think it can shape your sense of self. I mean, I don't want to generalise, but I can certainly say that I've spoken, this is true of me, and I've spoken to

many women about it, the feeling that it can be harder for ourselves to put ourselves forward. And I think that's one of the things that I really wanted to sort of just try and address, because I still find it hard to do that. If I'm going in to talk to the controller of BBC One or someone like that, and I'm trying to pitch an idea, I still find that hard, maybe harder than, I suspect harder than some of the men I work with, or at least that's my impression. But I think with a little bit of thought beforehand, and really trying to nail down what you're going to say, you can take some of the fright out of that. And I found that helpful to just think if you agonize over it beforehand, that's less of the agonizing that you're going to do in the actual conversation. And you're the mother now of three boys.

that you're going to do in the actual conversation. And you're the mother now of three boys. Have you noticed a difference in how boys are from how you are as a girl? Yes, and I don't know if it's just my sons, but I certainly noticed that when the first one, I was teaching him to ride his bike, lots and lots of falling over and crashing. And then the first little circuit that he did on his own on his two wheels,

and he looped around and he came back and said, that was great. Do you think I can do the Tour de France one day? And my jaw dropped because I thought, I'm sure that at no, you know, 10 seconds after I mastered any particular skill was I thinking that I might be at an elite level in that particular skill. But I'm happy to see them say things like that, because they will learn along the way that there's a lot more than just wanting to do something that comes into play. But I don't remember feeling like that at a comparable age, but maybe that was just me. So after you left Cambridge with your law degree. You applied for a job at the BBC in the summer of 1966. I'm so sorry. I'm not that much older than you, Elizabeth. No, you're really not. You look younger as well. It's outrageous. Anyway, you applied to the BBC and you didn't get the job, shockingly.

I know. What were they thinking? What were they thinking? They made up for it later. I had in the last year of university, and then I went on to do a master's. So there were kind of a couple of summers, you know, I was lucky enough to live in London, and therefore it wasn't that difficult. But I had written off a lot of work experience. And I'd been in for a week at Channel 4 News and a week here and there at different BBC programmes, a couple of newspapers, The Times, and The Telegraph. And then I'd done a stint of a few weeks, I think, in the BBC World Newsroom. And I was very much on the job market. And I was so at home in the BBC World Newsroom. And I thought I did some great work. And I thought, well, this is

obviously the place they like me, I love them. And I'm doing good stuff, they're going to take me on. So this, you know, period of work experience came to an end, and I was waiting for them to take me on. And actually, the then managing editor of the newsroom said, I'm really sorry, there just aren't any jobs, we're not going to be able to offer you anything. And various other bits of the BBC I'd written off to weren't offering me anything either. And I couldn't get my head around it because I was absolutely convinced that in terms of, you know, I'd grown up with the BBC World Service radio being really important to my family in Pakistan and when we were living in the Middle East. And I was just convinced this was the

place. And I was genuinely confused about why it wasn't working out the way when I had this strong gut instinct that this was the place I was going to work. And in the end, I applied for other jobs. And I ended up getting a job at Bloomberg. And I went off there thinking, it's the business news. I mean, I really don't know anything about the business news. I really want to do international news. But this is the only job I've been offered in this period. So I went off to work there. And two years later, the same managing editor of the newsroom got in touch and said, we are now hiring, would you like to apply? And I did, and I got the job, and I've worked at the BBC ever since.

But the weird thing is now when I look back, or the good thing is, when I look back, I think, well, had I joined the BBC straight out of university, I would have been a researcher, most likely, or maybe a broadcast assistant. It might have taken me much longer than two years to become a producer, whereas when I came from Bloomberg two years later, I was already employed as a producer. But also, I realised that at Bloomberg, because it had that young startup kind of feel, they let me read some weekend news bulletins. And I don't think anyone was watching. But I got that experience of writing my scripts and being in front of a little self

operated camera with the autocue as a foot pedal. But I just had that experience under my belt. And I didn't think at that time, I want to be a presenter, I just thought I want to be a producer in the BBC newsroom. But I would never have had that kind of experience in the first two years in somewhere as big as the BBC. So I look back now, and I think, you know, it worked out in a much better way i think i probably did better financially because i then became a producer in two years time and i certainly did better in terms of just experience i had under my belt that would never otherwise have happened but you know that particular summer it's when i mean lots of people have the same experience

people are saying to you so what's happening on the job front and you're thinking absolutely nothing is happening on the on the job front and it's really not working out at the place where I feel my heart is and where I belong and again you're being rejected by a place that you wanted to be quite shortly after your university experience what happens to you when there is that rejection that you have to cope with like how do you do you cope with it? Are you in a motor? At that time, I remember really avoiding talking about, you know, I would really avoid my parents, friends who are the ones who are likely to ask me the question of how is it going on the on the job front? And you know, are you getting anywhere? So I think in that sense, I cope quite badly, I essentially stuck my head under a blanket and thought, until I have something that I'm doing, I'm not going to put myself in situations where people are going to ask me how I'm getting along, because I don't like the

answer that I have to give, which I don't think is the right way to do it. But I look back now, and I think things really did work out. And I hope maybe, you know, sometimes things really, this doesn't always happen, but things can work out in ways that you can't imagine at the time. And the knowledge of that has helped me in other stages along the way. You know, at the BBC in the last 10 years, I saw people getting jobs that I thought, wow, I'd really, you know, wish someone had asked me to present that particular program. And I wish I would look back now and even to my 10-year younger self would say, if you're good at what you do, the right thing will come your way. Don't lose your nerve. That's such a wonderful thing to hear coming from you,

because I do think so many young women and possibly men look at you as this vision of success, who is so composed but also connected and very impressive to watch on screen and listen to on the radio and to hear that experience that actually your professional life took a sideways turning but it did work out for the best because you did gather all of these experiences is a wonderful example of serendipity and the right thing Elizabeth I don't know what the future holds I could make some heinous mistake that will take me off air forever tomorrow you know I really don't know what the future holds. I could make some heinous mistake that will take me off air forever tomorrow. You know, I really don't know. I just feel even now, I think I take one day

at a time. You know, I feel I'm only as good as my last interview. And therefore, somehow I have to find the balance between I know that I feel that way. And I think that's the way I'm always going to need to operate in order to do my best work. But I do put a lot of pressure on myself. And I am very self critical. And sometimes I think I also have to find the balance, which is that sometimes I mean, my mother would say, be kind to yourself, I also have to do that along the way. But part of the reason I wanted to write the book is I thought, you know, I really don't want this awful label superwoman that people put on, particularly when you've got children and you're juggling all the usual things. I think it's so exclusive. And it's the opposite of

empowering to other women. It's quite flattening, really, because most of the time, we're all muddling along. And I think I could have waited much longer to write this book in a much more retrospective way and maybe been more honest in the process. But I'm doing it at the same time as I'm continuing to do a job that I love. And I hope that if it does give courage to other women and to men as well, then I will be really happy about that. And I'll feel that it achieved what it set out to achieve. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history that inspires the locations,

the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, these words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart

of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. You do talk in the book about being abroad when your husband and all three of your children had chickenpox and also ordering nappies doing an online shop from Beijing or something. And really these things, the reason I put them in there is to strongly recommend that no other working parent goes down that particular route. I mean, I was at the Beijing Olympics where I remember ringing John Lewis about a delivery of blinds, you know, just mad things, just mad things. And certainly also thinking we're running out of nappies, I better add them to the online shop. In fairness, I think I had three children in nappies at that time. And those are extreme circumstances, you really don't want to run out of nappies. Because you've got twins. So you had a son and then 20 months later had

twin boys. Yes. So it was all quite full on. But a lot of those things I've put in, not as in totally the opposite of, you know, hey, I did this, you should, I mean, absolutely not. Really, I did this and you should not. I learned then that if you're on a work trip, possibly one of the least helpful things you can do is phone home because, you know, invariably you're just disrupting, everyone's managing fine and you're probably not that useful at that moment. You mentioned a bit earlier about feeling that you're only as good as your last interview and that something could go terribly wrong tomorrow.

How terrifying is that? Because you do do so much live broadcasting, especially on the Today programme, where everyone it feels is listening and then tweeting about it constantly. Have you got a tactic for sort of screening the useful tweets out of the trolling? Yes, well, I tend not to look at Twitter while on air. I mean, I do tweet while on air a little bit, but mostly I will look at the reaction after coming off air. And I do look at all the reaction and some of it can be very useful. I remember doing a whole series on flooding and quite a few environmental experts

then got in touch and said, have you thought about this, this and this? And that was really useful. So there is useful stuff that I wouldn't otherwise see that comes my way, which I really appreciate. There's a lot of other stuff as well, obviously. I think I deal with it probably just by focusing on the next thing I have to do. I think I just have to think, not quite moment by moment, but the great thing about a live program as opposed to a prerecorded one is that you have that adrenaline buzz. And it's really helpful, not just for just focusing your brain on what needs to be done, but also filtering the other stuff out. So I think the, although the live nature of it has, you know, all its associated perils, there is also something in it that's very useful for just harnessing the brain. And it has

to go forward to a particular destination. And what's on the periphery has to fall by the wayside. destination and what's on the periphery has to fall by the wayside. Do you get racist abuse? On occasion, on occasion I have. And I think with any kind of abuse, there are times that I've reported people, I tend not to engage with that stuff because sometimes I have. And where I have, I almost always look back and think that was 10 minutes of my life, I'll never get back. But that's not to say that I think it should be normalised or acceptable in any way. So, you know, I have pressed the report button, sometimes been pleased with the response, oftentimes not been pleased with the response. But social media is a part of our lives. But I think we just have to guard against the all consuming nature of it for our own sanity,

primarily. So I try and strike that balance. think we just have to guard against the all-consuming nature of it for our own sanity, primarily. So I'd try and strike that balance. Your Wikipedia entry refers to you as the first Muslim presenter of the Today programme. And I wonder if you think of yourself in those terms? Interesting, because I was also the first Asian presenter of the Today programme. And of course, the Muslim part got a lot more pickup than the Asian part, which I guess is just simply a sign of the times. I think I had a different sense of myself as a woman in the workplace more than anything else through presenting Today, through joining the presenting team at that particular point in time, because famously, it had only had one woman, Sarah Montague, as part of the presenting team for an awfully long time. The program had also rightfully taken a lot of flague, is part of the presenting team for an awfully long time.

The programme had also rightfully taken a lot of flack for 80% of the contributors being men at one point where the Guardian counted up the voices back in 2011. So my appointment in 2013 was not that far on from that. So I think it was really the woman aspect of my identity that I became more conscious of than ever before at that point in time. And what is it like being a woman in the BBC now? I know that you have to be so careful about the things that you say in this context. But in the book, you do talk about how when you imagined years ago, the job that you wanted to have, it was most often the image of a white man. Yes. And I think that I say that, not because I'm trying to point the finger at anybody, but really just because I know that those kinds of things can shape our own sense of where we can go in life. So in my industry, when we talk about the big beasts of broadcasting, you know, that phrase

that is often used, the big beasts of broadcasting, you just, you don't put a woman in that. And maybe we, well, clearly we should from now on, but it's just that kind of label that is rarely attached to a woman. And there are others across different professions, distinguished, or how often do we refer to distinguished women? We should more, or esteemed female colleagues, again, not so much, you know, gravitas is another one that's very rarely associated with women. So I think being a woman in the BBC right now is much better than it felt 14 or 15 months ago, in the sense that the really positive thing that came out of the whole equal pay row was that from the start from a, you know, a few of us,

essentially texting each other or ring each other up to say, what do you think about this? We grew into a much bigger group where people have been able to share information that has been incredibly helpful to others and to share really practical things. How did you deal with asking your boss about that particular thing? Or how did you put that point to HR? Things that really, of course, moral support is really important. But if you're actually going into one of those meetings, and there's a lot riding on it, to be able to ask someone, in some case, someone you might never have met or spoken to before that, to find out how they dealt with something that you are absolutely dreading, but know you have to give your best shot to, it's been incredibly helpful. And when, you know,

one friend who works in financial services, he said to me, I just don't think there'd be enough like-minded women in my workplace. And I found that hard to believe because I think you can start with just two or three. And even that's enough. You know, they're just the few people who you feel you can trust and you can confide in. But I have friends and connections now that I didn't have 14, 15 months ago. And I'm really pleased that that happened. that I didn't have 14, 15 months ago. And I'm really pleased that that happened. I do remember tweeting when I first heard you and Sarah Montague fronting the Today programme.

And it was two women at the helm of this flagship current affairs programme. And it was revolutionary and so thrilling. And it wasn't that long ago. No, I guess that must have been five years ago. But two women had been on together before Sarah had been on with Carolyn Quinn. And before that with Winifred Robinson, I think even a days earlier than that, I think there were times that Sue McGregor would have been on with another woman,

I think. So it wasn't the first time, but it was the first time anyone could remember for a while. And Sarah and I, it was a great feeling that morning. And of course, now that became more normal. And now it's also normal to be on with Martha. And it's fantastic that no one comments on it anymore. But it did feel like a big deal at the time. And I know that I owe so much to her because I learned from all my co-presenters. But Sarah was always the one that I could be the most honest with and say, how did you do that? And she was just a brilliant colleague and subsequently

became a fantastic friend. And I really owe her a lot because I think she was just a huge support through all of that time. Your third quote unquote failure details an interview that you did for the Today programme. And I think it's the only failure we've had on this podcast that mentions An Sang-Soo Chee. So tell me about that interview. Well, I wanted to talk about something that was current and really to get to this point of saying that I live with the risk and the fear of failure all the time and that most days I come off air and I will always look back on any interview I've done and I will always see the things that either I should have said or asked or the things I did say or ask that I shouldn't have or could have phrased differently. And I will always look back

in that kind of way. But I interviewed Aung San Suu Kyi in the autumn of 2013. And at that point, the Rohingya crisis was already happening. And there were already something like 100,000 Rohingya Muslims who had been forced out of their homes, who were living in camps. You know, some people had been hacked to death. And there was certainly evidence of ethnic cleansing being underway. And I asked her about it. And she essentially battered it away. She said that there was fear on both sides.

She said that the Buddhists, who were being blamed for the vast majority of the killing were fearful of a great global Muslim power. The interview finished and I just thought, you know, I just didn't really get anywhere with that. She had battered it away. And I didn't think about that interview again for a considerable period of time. And then Peter Popham's biography of Aung San Suu Kyi came out in which he reports that after that interview she said no one told me I was going to be interviewed by a Muslim which are not words I ever heard her say but I then watched the interview back and I watched it back and I thought you know what even though at the time I felt I didn't get anywhere I'm really glad that I asked her about

the Rohingyas at a time where she was very much on her pedestal. It was not easy to bring up something that was that tough. You know, she was being feted all around the world. She was staying in Lancaster House as a guest of the British government. And of course, you know, five years down the line, we know the scale of that crisis. I've been to those refugee camps, and I've talked to people who have lost everything and, you know, women who were raped, And I've talked to people who have lost everything and, you know, women who were raped, a woman whose baby was thrown into a fire. Awful, awful things that are really a stain on humanity. So I look back on that now and I think, well, at least I asked her at a time when really no one was asking her about something that subsequently got so much worse and that she has now been put so much in the spotlight over so I guess it's again an example of how things can look different and was it your decision to ask her that or was it

discussed beforehand with your producer how does it work with any interview and particularly with an interview like that you always have a brief and there's a discussion with a producer about what you want to get out but there are always judgments you make along the way during the interview you have to make the judgment of am I going to ask one question am I going to push this how long am I going to spend on it and you know naturally looking back I felt well I should have pushed her more on that but you have a certain amount of time usually there's several things that you want to talk to that particular interviewee about so it was part of the plan but the individual judgments made along the way were mine. I find it really uncomfortable when I'm interviewing a celebrity. And I know it's something they don't want to talk

about. But I also know I have to ask the question. And sometimes the atmosphere can be incredibly tense. And my reaction to that is sort of scuttle away and then sort of giggle and make the silence go away how do you push through that do you feel well in my case of course the whole thing is on the record so you know in your case when you look back you can pick and choose the I don't mean on this podcast I mean for your newspaper interview you can pick and choose the bits that you like and the bits that you want to leave out. I think a lot of the judgment along the way is when you bring up something. So, you know, for obvious reasons, the trickier things are best left to the end, if it's even the kind of thing that someone might really take offense at.

I think I probably think more about tone than anything else. And some of this is invariably going to be quite subjective, that it's sort of how do you want this interview to feel? There are obvious ones where the interview is to pick through a certain government policy or to really put to a particular person about something on their watch that went badly wrong, and they have to account for it. I might interview people who are bereaved. I worry about those interviews so much because you are asking someone, and they are there because they, obviously there is a purpose in them talking about it, often a charitable purpose or a bigger sense of what motivates them to be there. his wife in the Bataclan massacre. And, you know, I'm really conscious of the pressure that you put someone under at a moment like that, with the microphone in front of them. And I think sometimes the judgments you make will not turn out to be the right ones. And, you know, you will

look back on some things and think I really didn't judge that right. But I think that will always be the case. I think in the work that I do, yes, you get better over time, you get more experienced, you are more able to, I think, make better decisions, but there will always be things that you get wrong. And I feel quite unburdened, having got to the point where I'm able to say that, you know, you will essentially you will win some, you will lose some, and the rough and the smooth are both part of the territory. That's in many ways, that's liberated me because it just goes with the privilege of the job. Is your dream job everything you wanted it to be?

You're assuming that this is my dream job. I am. I love the fact that I work on television and radio. And I love the fact that I still go out and report because I think just seeing the process from the other side, you go to somewhere like the refugee camps and you're just working, you know, trying to get your radio material together and your television material together and edit it. And it's kind of different editors want different things. And you just wonder how it's going to. And is someone back in the newsroom going to cut what I think is the best bit out of it? So you have a healthy sense of what the process is like for those who are working out in the field. I think

this probably is my dream job. And the only reason I hesitate over that is because I never want to get too comfortable. And I fear that if I call it my dream job, there's a danger that I might slip into that. And I think the nature of what I do means that I'm always going to have to be on the edge of my seat. Otherwise, I won't be taking it seriously enough. And for that reason, I just slightly hesitate on the dream job part of it. My final question before I know you need to get your car

from the parking bay, but it's what you got your B in at A level. What was the B? Chemistry. Oh, well, who wants to get an A in chemistry anyway? Chemistry? English, Russian and chemistry were my A levels. I mean, don't make life easy for yourself. Well, this is the thing. And I'm going to blame my late father for this one. Because he, being a doctor, although he'd resigned himself to the fact that I wasn't going to go to university to do medicine, he thought it was terribly important that everyone should do a science or maths to A-level. Actually, our system, I mean,

there are very few people in our system, I think, who can take three very disparate subjects up to A-level. It turns out I really wasn't one of them. I really wanted to do English, Russian and history, but I did feel that parental pressure. And of course, when that was the subject that meant I didn't get into my first choice college. But yeah chemistry I found it very hard I don't think my brain is wired in the right sort of way I know you're talking to someone who did a single science at GCSE so I haven't got a clue can you still speak Russian? Very good Elizabeth very good you're shaming me I have the odd word in fact I've been thinking more about it a bit because Viv Groskopf's written this brilliant book about what Russian literature can teach you. And I was just captivated by Russian literature. And I continue to be

captivated by it, actually. And I remember when I lived in Moscow in my year off for six months. And, you know, I love that you could get in a taxi and say, take me to Chekhov's house. And, you know, you never had to give the taxi driver the address. Of course, people would know which is Chekhov's house. So yeah, I just love the emotion and the passion of those writers. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. I have about 5000 other questions. I'm just going to have to save some other time because I don't want you to get a parking ticket. But Michelle Hussain, thank you so, so much for coming on How to Fail with Elizabeth Day. Thank you, Elizabeth. It's been a pleasure.