How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S2, Ep5 How to Fail: Alastair Campbell

Episode Date: October 31, 2018

This week How To Fail With Elizabeth Day welcomes Alastair Campbell to the confessional booth. The former spin doctor to Tony Blair (and inspiration for the character of foul-mouthed Malcolm Tucker in The Thick Of It) talks movingly about his mental health breakdown in 1986, and how that changed the course of his life. He also discusses living with depression, admitting to an alcohol problem, almost crying on live TV and playing the bagpipes (not all at the same time). Along the way, we talk about Brexit, Iraq, the dodgy dossier, the impact his workaholism has had on his personal life and whether he thinks New Labour was a failure or not.Campbell is a beautifully open interviewee with some deeply candid and helpful things to say about coming back from failure and operating at the highest level of politics. It was a privilege to interview him, and somewhat surreal that he came to my flat and drank tea from my mug while I did so. How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate Books The latest volume of Alastair Campbell's diaries, From Crash To Defeat, is out now published by Biteback Publishing. Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayAlastair Campbell @campbellclaretChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest this week is Alistair Campbell, a writer, strategist and charity campaigner, arguably best known for his role as official spokesman and director of communications for the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, a position he occupied from New Labour's landslide 1997 victory until his resignation in 2003. Since then, Campbell has written 14 books, soon to be 15, including eight volumes of diaries and four novels. In recent years, he has become increasingly involved with mental health causes, speaking openly about his own experience of depression, psychosis and addiction, and of his brother Donald's lifelong struggle with schizophrenia. He continues to

advise left of centre parties and is, like Norman Wisdom, big in Albania. He helps the Albanian Socialist Party win a landslide victory in 2013. On his website, Campbell lists his hobbies as running, cycling, bagpipes, and following Burnley FC. The latter must have given him a fair amount of experience in failure. Once told by a psychiatrist that depressives wish for high-powered jobs to compensate for feeling unlovable, Campbell's response was simply, I think I'm highly lovable. Alistair, welcome. Thank you.

Thank you for coming to my flat. It's slightly surreal having you here, but very pleasant. It's a nice flat. Thank you. What do you think makes you lovable? Did I say that? Yeah, unless you were misquoted by a terrible journalist no i don't know but that's me talking about i've written about my encounters my

psychiatrist how am i lovable i think i'm quite lovable yeah i think all my life i've produced quite strong reactions in people so i know that some people really really really don't like me but i think a lot of people do and I think I do inspire quite intense feelings yeah strong both ways and you've always been like that you said even from a little child so yeah I think I have I could never quite understand why some people some other kids at school some of them really really liked me and some of them really really didn't I was always conscious of that yeah and did it bother you or did it actually foster a sense of self-ident identity in a way you had to be confident in yourself I mean it certainly doesn't bother me now whether it did I don't know I don't think I've ever worried about being liked too much

it's never really bothered me I always was part of a close family I've got a very close family now I've got a lot of passions I've got a lot of different people in different areas that I would say I was quite close to. But I'd say there's always been quite a small number of people that I'm very, very, very close to. And I think if they felt I was unlovable, it would get to me. And I think when you become kind of well-known, it's sort of weird because you meet so many people who think they know you. Even like this morning, a taxi driver took me to Paddington. We just chatted away. And at the end of it, he just said, yeah, it's really interesting talking to you. You like this morning, a taxi driver took me to Paddington. We just chatted away, and at the end of it,

he just said, yeah, it's really interesting talking to you. You seem a lot nicer than I thought you were. I said, well, you don't know anything about me, apart from what you've read. Well, it's funny you say that, because I was really surprised how much I liked you when I met you. Oh, Elizabeth! It's the biggest compliment I can make.

Because I think that it must be a strange thing because you had such a public persona when you were Director of Communications, which previous Director of Communications hadn't had. Bernard Ingham had a bit. Yeah, but not your level, I don't think. But I think that's partly because I became such a big figure in part because the media was changing so fast

and becoming such a bigger, much bigger part of people's lives. But also what I have found quite strange, and I'm not complaining because it means I can make a good living, I still have a voice, I do lots of different things, I've got an interesting life. What I think is quite strange is that even though the profile is not as it was right at the height of Tony Blair time, it's never gone away. I get recognised probably more now than ever.

Now, whether that's just because of kind of, you know, you've been around for a long time, but I find like, you know, I'm doing a school next week and I find when I go to schools that a lot of the kids can know who I am and they know about my past and stuff. And it's kind of weird because I don't court it other than to, you know, you talked about, for example example the campaign on the mental health I like doing that the stuff that I'm doing now trying to stop Brexit I like doing that and then you know next week as you say

I've got another book out I mean promoting books I don't particularly enjoy it but you kind of have to do it for a bit so sometimes I'm looking for opportunities to be out there but a lot of the time I'm not and yet every single day if wanted to, I could be on the telly. Do you think it's also related to the infamous Malcolm Tucker portrayal in the thick of it? That that's kind of introduced, not a notion of you, but some people have mistaken it for you, to a new generation? Yeah, I think there is a bit of that. I mean, I remember when my grace my daughter first came across the whole malcolm tucker thing it was kids talking about it at school

and then she watched it and i remember saying dad is malcolm tucker really based on you that's why so they say god that is so cool i'm so happy about that but it's interesting you know this says something about the way television has changed when i'm out and about like i was earlier today in wales and you know i do a speech and then do a q a and very often i get asked about malcolm tucker you know how do you feel about malcolm tucker are you proud of it are you ashamed of it blah blah whenever i get asked that question i always ask the audience for a show of hands about who knows what the question's about and you'd be amazed how many people don't know what the question's about. And that's because when I was growing up,

everybody knew Morecambe and Wise because everybody watched Morecambe and Wise. We all watched the same stuff at the same time, and now we don't. And so I think these cultural references that sometimes in the media bubble we think everybody's on it, they're not. I was actually very disappointed when he became Doctor Who. Were you? they're not i was actually very disappointed when he became doctor who i felt he should have stayed cementing my brand long into the future well he'll be free again now because no i know but doctor who's such a big thing isn't it is that doctor who's kind of part of cultural history and this isn't a political podcast and we are going to get on to the failures that you emailed

me um soon but i'm just interested actually kind of from a personal perspective because I remember the 1997 landslide victory and it was such a time of elation for so many people in this country and to see where we've come now 20 years later to me is very dispiriting for you who was one of the architects really of new labour do you think new labour was a bit of a failure no it wasn't a failure in that we achieved so much of what we set out to do but yes in that and i don't think we can take all the responsibility if there's anything we have to take some we have not cemented the legacy now i'm afraid I look at today's Labour Party and also I think Ed Miliband, who lives right in the corner, had something to do with this as well. I just don't think Labour are good at defending our own records. We had a really good record. I mean, it ended badly because

of the crash. Gordon actually dealt with the crash really, really well. In fact, the book that's out this week, this is right in this area, it's From Crash to Defeat, the crash, and then we lost the election. But Gordon, for all his weaknesses and faults and could be infuriating and the rest of it, he was a giant compared to what we've got today on both sides. So I don't think we were a failure. Just to give you one sort of very small thing. Well, it's not a small thing, it's a huge thing. When the Labour Party was founded over 100 years ago, the three founding policy goals were Scottish devolution, a minimum wage and abstinence. Okay, right. Well, abstinence, they failed, alas. It wasn't a sort of so-called radical, so-called left-wing government. It was the new Labour government. I just find it sad that

when you say where we are, it's not just where we are Labour, it's where we are politics, it's where we are Britain, where we are the world. Whether it will come back, I don't know. I mean, this thing I was at this morning, every speech I do now, I start with these four questions. Are you optimistic about Trump being president? You get next to zero. Do you think Brexit's going well?

This morning, it was one. Do you think Theresa May is doing a good job as prime minister? It was zero. Do you think brexit's going well this morning it was one do you think theresa may is doing a good job as prime minister it was zero do you think corbyn would do any better one was it the same one who put no it wasn't it wasn't it was the the the trump person was really interesting because it was somebody who just really can't judge by how people look i guess but if you just said to me is that person going to be a sport of trance in no way I get that everywhere at the moment and that's a crisis in our politics at least when John Major was prime minister if you went around the country you'd hear a lot of people saying well say what you like about John Major you know he's okay and you've got this guy Tony Blair coming up and people

liked him whereas now you have a prime minister dealing with the most important issue of our lifetime in my view and nobody thinks she's doing it well. Least of all, I suspect, her. Well, I mean, it almost makes you think of Neil Kinnock as the glory days. And that leads us on to what you've cited as, it's not really a failure, but you very kindly agreed to speak about it. 1986, before you got into the political sphere, you were a journalist. Yeah.

And you were on Neil Kinnock's campaign trail and can you tell us about what happened well I'd been on the daily mirror actually the day I got to know Neil really well was the day the Bradford City fire and the reason I remember that was because the mirror had got Neil and Glenis and on their kids and all their cousins and grandparents and everything got the whole family together for the mirror and we were going to do this huge sort of centre spread on the Kinnock clan and all the and we brought them all out to London we stayed to put them up in this hotel for a weekend and it was the day of the Bradford City fire I remember Maxwell who then

owned the mirror sort of phoning up and saying we must get Neil Kinnock on my helicopter and get him up to Bradford and Neil quite rightly saying look you know stay where he is thank you very much and let the police and the fire and everybody else sort it out but anyway we became very friendly Neil was actually very important in making me make the jump to political journalism but then I got headhunted by Eddie Shah his new outfit today and I went there as news editor of the Sunday paper I was 27 just quite young was quite high-flying I probably had been drinking dangerously for a decade or more but very functioning nobody ever you know people knew I drank a lot but nobody would ever said that guy can't cope and you know what newspapers are like

then anyway it was kind of a bit weird if you didn't drink like that were you drinking in the mornings and things like that? When I got up to the breakdown, yeah. Not for the whole period. Nearing up to the breakdown, I was. And in fact, the day before the breakdown was classic. It was when I finally got arrested and hospitalised. And when I was in hospital, in fact, my first novel,

I dedicated it to this guy, Ernest Benny, who was the psychiatrist in this hospital in Paisley he didn't lecture me he didn't do anything he just said I noticed that when we got your possessions brought over by the police because I'd been arrested sorry it's also jumbled this but it's kind of quite a complicated story I've gone up to Scotland I was with Neil as you say started to feel very weird I had a car which I dumped because I realized I couldn't drive it and I just sort of eventually was hearing voices and noises and music in my head and arguments going in my head and everybody walked by I thought they were talking to me or about me I was very paranoid so I got arrested not arrested but these two policemen who actually I'd love to meet them again because I mean the police get a pretty bad rap,

I think, for a lot of the stuff. They were brilliant with me. They actually came over. They were plainclothes. I didn't even know the policeman. And one of them just said, you know, are you okay? And I said, no, I don't think I am.

And the other one said, do you want to come with us? And I said, I think I should. And they could have been anybody, right? But the next thing I know, I'm with them in a car. Next thing I know, I'm in a police cell. And I'm taking all my clothes off. I'm banging my head on the wall i'm punching the wall i'm punching myself i'm going absolutely crazy anyway this psychiatrist a few days later i'm now sedated i've been in bed for a few days he said i noticed when your possessions were brought over by the police that you keep a diary which indeed indeed I do, and long have.

And he said, do you record how much you drink? I said, no, why would I do that? I just wondered, he said. He said, do you remember how much you drink? I said, well, vaguely. He said, if I just went through a few days in your diary, and my diaries are illegible other than to me, I mean, when i look at them now

unbelievable i mean about 30 000 words on a page because it was manic you know little shorthand scribbles and he said if you just took me through that day do you think you could try to remember how much you drank so we picked a day and i threw up in the morning with fiona went for fiona go swimming every morning she went out i threw up got to work went to the pub and then i just took him through the day on this particular day i had lunch with david meller he said how much did you have to drink at lunch i said i can't really remember but i know the bill was quite i think we probably got through about four bottles of wine maybe and he'd said

how much of that do you think Mr Mellor had to drink and I'd say a couple of glasses and then what did he do after that so he was just sort of and it was by about four o'clock in the afternoon literally this penny drops in my head and I think I've got a drink problem

now loads of people had said to me before you're drinking too much it loads of people had said to me before you're drinking too much it's dangerous Fiona kept saying to me you know you know but it didn't make any difference this guy made me realize so he sort of diagnosed kind of stress-induced alcohol-fueled psychotic attack really the reason why I mentioned it to you as a kind of how to fail is because at the time it felt like the biggest failure ever and not only did it feel like a failure it felt when I was going through the psychotic episode I thought I was going to die now I know I wasn't now because you know I'm here 40 whatever it is 30 odd years later but I thought I was going to die because I thought I

was being tested by a higher power. I don't know what. And the punishment for failing the test was death. That's what I thought. So with all these paranoid thoughts going on, I was convinced that I was being tested. And you mentioned in your introduction, my brother, Donald, who had schizophrenia. And the problem with recalling it is that I can recall it very, very vividly, The problem with recalling it is that I can recall it very, very vividly, but separating out what was real and what was delusional and paranoid,

I don't necessarily know. But one part that I'm convinced happened, the police happened, for example, and all sorts of other things happened. I can laugh about it now, but it was a Saturday night and I was in a council building in Hamilton in Scotland. Neil was there to make speak at dinner and as I started to feel really wired and weird and just I'm not something's going badly wrong here all these voices and I can't work out what's real and what's not I'm sort of conscious of being paranoid but am I right to be paranoid are they trying to kill me you know all this stuff going on So I stopped this guy who had a badge on, so I'm thinking he works at the council,

and I said, can you get me a phone? Pre-mobiles. So I went up to this room. He gave me this room. He gave me the chief executive's office. I sat in there, and he said, are you okay? Have you got everything you need? Do you want a cup of tea?

I said, no, I'm fine. I just need the phone. I dial home, phone Fiona. No reply. That's weird. Where's she gone? Phone my parents. No reply. Phone my brother. No reply. Phone my sister. No reply. That's weird. Where's she gone? Phone my parents. No reply.

Phone my brother. No reply. Phone my sister. No reply. Phone my mates. Any number I can think of, I'm phoning it and nobody's in. Now, of course, it transpires. It's a public sector building.

It's a council building. You had to do nine for an outside line. Every time I press zero, I'm going to a switchboard. It's just ringing. It's unmanned at the weekend. But this is now just... So I go downstairs and this guy, I play the bagpipes, as you mentioned. There's a guy walks past wearing a kilt, carrying a set of bagpipes, right? Now, why wouldn't he? Because he's about to play. He's about to pipe Neil Kinnick into

a dinner. But I stopped this guy and i said to him is this about donald my brother is this about donald and of course the guy looks at me like i'm completely insane what the fuck are you talking about right so as he's looking at me like that i'm feeling even weirder why doesn't that guy want to talk to me why does he just sort of look to me like i'm a complete lunatic and he's walked away so all that kind of stuff getting unraveled and put together so I felt like I have failed my life is over my career is over my life is over I can't Fiona's not going to stay with me when you know all this is going on so I see it as a huge failure but I see it as the pivot to any success that came in my life and I now look

at it as the best thing that ever happened to me because you were forced to acknowledge what was going on yeah I was forced to acknowledge it and deal with it so for example the drinking I didn't touch alcohol for 13 years I had a fantastic stroke of luck my former boss at the mirror Richard Stott who'd been very angry when I left he phoned me up and offered me my old job back when I got well it was an amazing thing to do

so that gave me that sense of oh, maybe I'm not finished he did say start at the bottom again do night shifts, what have you I also discovered I think the importance of genuine friendship so for example, a lot of the people that I would have been out on the piss with every night,

they were still trying to get me to go out on the piss. You worked out who the real friends were. So for example, my first job back at the mirror, a few months later, there was a terrorist incident at Heathrow airport and I got sent to Heathrow. Now Heathrow had been a big part of my breakdown because that's where i'd flown up to scotland from and i got really wired there i'd also because the night

before i'd not gone home i did a row on the phone with fiona i booked into a hotel and i emptied the minibar and i had no change of clothing and i had no razor toothbrush all that stuff so when i got to heathrow i literally just I went and bought some new clothes and dumped my clothes I bought a toothbrush, I brushed my teeth I bought a razor, I shaved and then of course the terrorism thing I had all this special branch stuff going up in Scotland as well

so I'm thinking this is just the worst possible job and I started to get very very edgy so I phoned my mate on the mirror Sid Young down in Bristol and he just talked me through doing the story you know so things like that working out who your real friends were understanding that even though I can't pretend I've been perfect for Fiona the whole way through but I did at least get an understanding that was a pretty amazing thing that she did

that she stuck by me understanding that actually my health was important and this is something that you don't just grow out of it's not a phase it's something that I imagine you live with daily now still are there strategies that you put in place are there warning signs that go off that you think oh I know I need to take care of myself in this particular way? Well, I've never had another episode of psychosis. And of course, the really big thing that was freaking me out at the time, because a massive part of my kind of interest in mental health was my brother. And when I was hearing the voices and hearing the music, and when I realised that's what happened, I thought, oh my God, this is running running in the family here I've got exactly the same as Donald but actually I've never had full-on psychosis

again I've had a lot of depression and actually the depression I don't really understand where it comes from and I think at the time because I managed to stop drinking when the depression kept coming I thought I was really pissed off because I think I've done the really really hard thing right and now you know I thought everything's really pissed off because I'd done the really, really hard thing, right? And now, you know, I thought everything's going to be perfect. It wasn't. So I've definitely got strategies to deal with the depression. What are they? Are they exercise related?

Yeah, they're kind of, there's a whole, I've actually just finished a documentary for the BBC, which is coming out next year, about depression. I mean, I do take medication every day. I do see somebody, not all the time but every now and then but actually the stuff that i do on my own is just as important i think taking care of key relationships in your life is so important i'm not pretending i'm perfect i'm not i really am not and i can you know i know i can be a nightmare to live with i know that but i do

genuinely value and treasure the relationship that I have with Fiona the relationship that I have with my kids they are the most important relationships in my life bar none and then outside that other members of family genuine friends so looking after that's really important and the other thing is I think I've come to terms with the fact that I don't think it's a bad thing that I am a workaholic. I do work all the time. I have to do something work-related every day. And then into the kind of more tactical stuff, exercise every day,

sport, watching sport. Burnley is an obsession. I love it. I love going. I love going. I love everything about it. It really means something deeper than just having a football team. And do you know what's weird? I don't have much memory of football.

Just the Burnley thing is really, really important to me. Music's incredibly important. Particularly, actually, since my dad and my brother died, the bagpipes have become more important. So playing music, listening to music, writing music. I write some stuff as well. Creativity. Got to create something every day,

even if it's just an article for the New European or it's an idea for a new campaign or a new book or whatever. Curiosity. All that sleep. Sleep. I mean, honestly, it's embarrassing sometimes. You talk to our kids about, you know, Fiona and I would be sitting there and it would be like 10 of 10 past nine in the end could I go to bed now but I have to sleep

now I never used to but now I have to sleep and if I don't I get really wired I get really panicky we went to America recently and it was like it was two overnight flights but it was fine because I thought about them and I planned them and I made sure I slept the whole way. And what's it like having to have those tactics when you're in an incredibly high pressure environment as you were working for Tony Blair? How honest were you with everyone at that stage? Not totally. And also back then, I think I've got better at this since then. Back then, I think I didn't run a lot on adrenaline. I think I ran a lot on the sense of being very resilient. And that's the other thing that I think my breakdown gave me. I think I am very resilient. And I think that comes a lot from that. I wasn't as open then as I am now. I was open with some people. I had a wonderful PA called Alison

and I would always tell her when I was feeling like shit and she just knew that just meant right okay and if Tony phones fine she'll put him through Gordon phones fine she'll put him through she'll make a judgment I only ever once didn't do a briefing that I was meant to do and I sent my number to I just couldn't face it but no I was not as open then and also it's quite interesting this I didn't particularly even though as you said earlier I have this huge profile I didn't particularly look for it or want it it just got created but I remember one of the best pictures ever taken of me was the first time what happened was mind asked if I would do something for a campaign they were running

came in and he did a really good picture the best pictures my mum loved it as well and he was doing all the sort of pose stuff and then just while i was just so you know i did this thing where i just rubbed my eye like that they did this picture it's a fantastic picture and they used it in this campaign about because it looked like i'm you know i wasn't actually i'm just dropping my eye but he just got this thing that looked like it was like a really good man in agony picture but even on that they then said you know what to do stuff and i said well i don't think i should i'm not a politician i'm the guy spokesman but but i've always enjoyed that sort of campaigning space and of course since i've been out i've done loads of it and i've you know written books about

it i've written novels about mental illness. I've written a memoir about depression. I like writing about it. I like talking about it. I like making films about it. And I find it's a way that I can make a difference. I don't feel I can make a difference with the Labour Party at the moment. I feel I can make, hopefully, a bit of a difference on Brexit

by some of the arguments that we put out there. But I feel on this mental health stuff, I just feel like the stuff that I'm doing in the campaign is making a difference. Does it feel like a vocation? It feels vocational, but it doesn't feel like a vocation in that I don't think I'll ever do anything full time again. Peyton, it's happening. We're finally being recognised for being very online.

It's about damn time. I mean, it's hard work being this opinionated. And correct. You're such a Leo. All the time. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions. If you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second. Then join me, Hunter Harris.

And me, Payton Dix, the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure. Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise.

Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago set in motion a chain of gruesome events

and sparked cult-like devotion across the world I'm Matt Lewis Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Also, I forgot that you don't do God. No, I don't do God, no. I do, in fact, it's very funny,

I swore in Coventry Cathedral the other day because I was doing a speech there. That's so Malcolm Tucker of you. Is it? Yeah. But the guy who runs the cathedral, the very reverend, he had so many names,

so many sort of bits of his title. But anyway, he was sitting at the top table. We'd been having dinner. It was a peace conference. It was all these different people from different peace processes around the world. And I've been talking about Ireland and all sorts of other things.

And I was telling this story. And the story, story I'm afraid because it was a story about what other people said it required me to use the f-word so I said to the guy I said can I swear in this place and he said yes and I said but can I like you know you know top level swear I said, not C word, but, you know, just below. He said, yes. He says, I've done it. So I told this story in Coventry Cathedral. And no lightning bolt came down to smite you? No, it didn't.

I'm very interested in religion. My sister's a Christian and it's fundamental to everything she does and everything she thinks in her whole life. And I'm interested in it. I don't like this kind of Dawkins anti-religion thing. I mean, I think I don't like it when people use religion for violence and all that stuff.

But I think faith is a good thing. I'm a pro-faith atheist is how I put it. Love that. I agree. We talked there a bit about you being a workaholic and that leads us on to your second failing. Yeah. Which is that you sometimes at the height of it didn't realise what an impact that was having on your wife, Fiona, and your children.

Yeah. First of all, you mustn't call her my wife because she's a feminist. Oh, I'm so sorry. Common law, my partner. I'm so sorry. That's terrible. And I'm a car-carrying feminist. I know. I'm sorry sorry. That's terrible. And I'm a car-carrying feminist. I know. I'm sorry, Fiona. I think when I was full-on work and depressed, I think that must have been horrific for her. And when would that have been? Would that have been post-1997?

Were there specific periods you can remember? There were loads. There were loads. Volume 1 to 7, I'd say. And I think the other thing that happens is when you get depression is that unless you're so depressed you can't get out of bed or you're suicidal and if you are like me somebody who kind of does have quite a strong inner motor i can get myself up to do stuff if i have to but i think what happens sometimes is you get up, you do it. And then because the depression adds a layer of exhaustion. So you're doing a tough job anyway,

you're very, very busy, you're full on, you're arguing with people all day, you're writing stuff, you're thinking, you're organizing, you know, it's busy. You're dealing with the unexpected. And then what would happen is I'd get home and I would completely crash and the children the kids particularly when they were growing up I think they knew sometimes something was wrong but actually I felt bad about this but I knew that I'd rather be with them than anybody else and so therefore they could lift me a bit so Fiona was getting it all really I don't mean that in a bad way I wasn't you know I just think I was very, very difficult to live with. And I mean, some days when I was really depressed,

I'd literally, we've got a sofa in the kitchen, I would just lie in it and I wouldn't move. And she'd come in and say, she'd be perfectly nice and I just wouldn't reply. The kids came in, I'd force myself. And the thing that she really hated was if the phone rang and it was Tony or it was Peter Mandelson or it was you know I could

have the conversation I didn't enjoy the conversation I didn't particularly want to have it but nor did I say listen Tony I don't want to talk to you you could put it on for that moment but it's almost like because you know that you don't have to pretend with Fiona yeah I think that's what it is but I think I underestimated the impact that was having and also when we she and I did a thing last year for William and Kate and Harry, the Heads Together campaign, where she made the point that when you're like that, when I'm like that, it took her a long, long time not to think it was her fault. God, I can imagine. Yeah.

So she thinks, why am I not making her happy? He seems happy when he's out. He seems out. I saw him on the telly the other day. He was great. But as soon as he comes here, he's miserable as sin. But of course, as you say, I think what it is is you're pumping yourself up to kind of be able to be the person people think you are, and then you get back. And also I think it's very hard for somebody who doesn't get depression

to understand it on any level. And I never used to tell Fiona I was depressed. I mean, for years. I do now, as soon as I feel it coming on and we talk about it and we've both found different ways of dealing with it hers is very different to mine but she would often say what triggers it now I know that's a sympathetic thing to ask but you know you just don't know but it's a very strange thing when you're depressed because when I'm depressed I want Fiona around but I don't want her

there and part of the thing is how the hell is she supposed to work out which is which so what she's done and I think this is the right approach she goes into a bit of a shell of her own when I'm depressed she doesn't come into my space too much because she knows it's just a limit to what you can do

and I think telling the kids, when I started to see a psychiatrist about depression, the first thing I did was I sat down with the kids individually and I told them. Because I think it's important that they understand it's not about them. It doesn't mean that your kids don't get you down and get you up, and they do. Of course they affect your mood, but that's not the cause of my depression. When you were having these episodes and you were also in an incredibly highly pressured but highly important job, were you ever worried about your judgment, putting together briefing papers or...?

No, I wasn't worried about my judgment. I don't think so. I kind of knew when I was reaching the limit say of exhaustion i was very good at building a team i had a really really good team small team of people i completely rated trusted had a great team encouraged them to challenge me sometimes not just my number two but others would come in and say you sure about this I think they were very good at reading my moods. So no, I wasn't worried about that. And also, I'm not pretending that I wasn't quite an important figure

within Downing Street, but there were others, and the most important was Tony. Of course, I was making loads of decisions, not least the decisions that had to be made that, you know, he shouldn't have to worry his time with. But no, I didn't worry about that. I worried about cracking up, but because I'd cracked up before, I think that's the other thing why I look back on 1986

as a failure that led to success. I knew when to stop. I knew how to unplug. How do you feel now about the so-called dodgy dossier? I think it's... How do I feel about it now? I don't really think about it. I only think about it when I get asked about it. I think about Iraq. I think about, you know, all the stuff that went on at that time.

But it was a media thing. That was a story about the media, really. So I don't really think that much about it. What do you think when you think about Iraq? Well, funny well funny there's a bit in the new book where I can't remember why I'm writing about it or talking about writing about talking about these are your diaries aren't they that the new book is yeah yeah yeah so volume seven is oh seven to ten so it's when Gordon was prime minister and there's a bit where I'm giving evidence to the Iraq inquiry. And as I'm preparing for that, I'm talking to Tony, and I'm sort of thinking aloud.

There are times when I think, I know that Tony really believed it, but there are times when I'm thinking, are we doing this because we really, really believe in it, or because actually alongside it, you've got this really important relationship with the United States of America? I've met people who served in Iraq. I've met people who have lost people in Iraq and nobody can pretend that it went the way that we hoped that it would and yet also I look now what's happening in Syria and I think

one of the reasons it's going as badly as it's gone in Syria is because we've learned the wrong lessons. Because Iraq there's a sort of judgment that there were bad consequences of taking action, we've overlooked the fact, and with regard to Syria, there are massive consequences sometimes to inaction. Do you have regrets? About that or generally? Generally.

Not really, no. No. Put it this way, every single thing that I did during that whole period, I can justify it to myself. could look in the mirror and i can understand why other people think we did the wrong thing i totally get that i understand we could reach a different decision and people may think this is arrogant or harsh but i don't have anything on my conscience in relation to that now it doesn't mean that i don't have regrets i wish that things had worked out differently i wish that certain things hadn't happened and generally do i have regrets i think i have a great life and i think i've had a really interesting life and i've got three fantastic kids

callum our son he's had problems with alcohol you know it was that period he's great now he's five years without a drink and he's big in aa and all that stuff but that period was like do i regret that period i certainly do and did at the time that i think oh you're bounty you think god you know did he go off the rails because i wasn't there enough because i drank or whatever you know but they're not regrets they're kind of reflections and so you think about it the reason i bring up the dossier is not just because I'm a horrible journalist, but because it leads us on to your third failure, which you talk about in your new volume of Diaries.

And it's about a specific time when you went on the Andrew Marr show. Can you tell us when that was? So it was February 2010, and I had a novel out, which actually was about the pathology of fame. Oh, what's it called? It's called Maya, and it's about a film star. She becomes a film star, and then all her relationships sort of change, and she's got this guy that she was friendly with at school

who becomes totally obsessed with her, and it's all a bit weird. And so I go on, and you know what it's like to do sort of book promotion. I mean, there's a part of you that thinks it's fine, but there's a part of you that thinks you're a bit of a whore. Nespa. And also because the act of writing is so solitary. Yeah. And then you're suddenly wheeled out onto the road,

and you're meant to have opinions about how you write and where you get your ideas from, and it's impossible. But equally with me, I'm well aware that, and I'm not criticisingrew for this he's going to give me two or three questions on the book and then he's going to say now can we turn to iraq or now can we turn to gordon brown and now can we turn to whatever and to this day i don't really know what happened and if you google it it's quite interesting because i literally sat there in silence for quite a long time.

Because he asked you? Well, he asked the question, and I can't remember specifically what the question was, but it was about Iraq. And he basically said, but isn't your problem that nobody actually believes you anymore? And whether it was that or something else that was going on, I kind of reached a point of thinking,

there's absolutely no fucking point talking to this guy about this. And it almost like an out-of-body experience i wasn't there i wasn't there and what was extraordinary was that that was the first time that it happened but actually it then started to happen elsewhere and i talked to my psychiatrist about it and he said well it sounds like a panic attack but i wasn't panicking I wasn't panicking it's a sort of disassociation I'm guessing I just wasn't there and I'm thinking so I'm going to record in the diary it's live on television and I said I actually write in my diary my breakdown in 1986 was one thing but this feels like a breakdown live on telly my brain is not there my body is not there at point, I thought I was going to

hit him. And I just sat there and I just let it pass. Again, I say this in the diary, but I remember this. I always know that other people who know me well know when I'm depressed because they know that my voice is different. My voice weakens and it gets thinner. It's a bit reedy. My voice weakens and it gets thinner. It gets a bit reedy. And I knew that when I spoke next, that was going to be my voice. It was one of the weirdest things. But what was strange about it, of course,

is that because it was the first interview of like a big round over the next few days, I thought, God, I'm going to have to do this again and again and again. And that was, I think, part of it as well. I thought, I just can't bother with this anymore. And the silence lasted for about ten seconds? I don't know how long it was, but it was long enough to be noticeable on television. And you got lots of texts afterwards?

Loads and loads and loads. That's when I knew it was a moment. In fact, Emma, who's the publicist from Random House, who was there, she knew it was a moment. We had a friend staying with us, and Fiona was watching at home. She knew it was a moment. But I friend staying with us and fiona was watching on at home she knew it was a moment but i was getting messages from dave brailsford british cycling he sent me a message the contents of which i cannot repeat on air let's say it's even harder than the f word and he was talking about journalists in the main and it was a very funny messages from

piers in fact piers phoned me a few times during the day piers morgan yeah because around that time and i think this might have been the other thing that was going on because what i found when i was transcribing this particular volume of diaries i'm not criticizing gordon for this but he was utterly relentless about trying to get me back and i was keen to help but i was not keen to go back. Anybody who gets this book, From Crash to Defeat, I apologise in advance for my endless agonising. But I'm agonising. I'm in agony. I'm in torture, right?

Because I think I should, but I don't want to. I've had enough. And Gordon, and again, I'm not criticising him for this because he's trying to win an election. He wants the people that he wants and he's relentless and eventually gets me back sort of not the way he wanted but enough for me to do you know a fair bit of work for him and i think that was the other thing going on so there i am i'm trying to build this new life i'm trying to get things back on proper footing with fiona because it'd been very difficult for quite a while i'm trying to sort my mental health

i'm trying to deal with the depression. I'm trying to help the kids. And then I've got this new life. I'm writing novels and stuff. And so I think it was almost like, I think, I'm probably overanalyzing this now, but I go on there and I realize, look, you can write as many bloody novels as you want, but you're never going to be a novelist

because you're always going to be seen as Tony Blair's guy. But that's fine. I'm happy about that. But in the the context and I think the other thing going on was that there's a part of me does think I was his spokesman right I wasn't the foreign secretary I wasn't the secretary of state for defense I wasn't sitting around the cabinet table and yet I think if you think about I mean Tony gets the lion's share of all the crap but I'm probably number two. Yeah.

And I'm thinking, there's something weird here. Do you cry easily? I do, yeah. I do. When was the last time you cried? Hmm. When was the last time I cried? About four weeks ago, when I was playing the bagpipe. And by the way, I play them very well, so don't think it was crying because it was bad music. four weeks ago when I was playing the bagpipes for myself. And by the way,

I play them very well, so don't think it was crying because it was bad music. Well, I was just thinking it must be difficult to play the bagpipes when you're crying because it's so much No, I do, I do, I do.

Yeah, I cry a lot. I do cry a fair bit. I cry at films. I can cry when I'm reading. I can cry when I'm writing. I don't know if you do that. Now I want to say that I have done it

because otherwise I sound like a crap novelist. But I think think I am I can tell when something is moving like as in I'm writing it in a moving enough way my first novel was about a psychiatrist who goes off the rails and there's a funeral scene in it and I wrote this scene and there's this bit that I'm really struggling with and I was driving to a Burnley game Stoke and it came and I pulled over and I wrote it on my BlackBerry in the car and then about half an hour later I'm sitting there in floods of tears because we were speaking before this podcast started about how generally speaking men find it sometimes more difficult to open up about depression or mental health issues

and certainly during the course of getting guests for this podcast I've struggled a bit to get men to talk to me and I think it's very important and I'm so grateful to you for doing that and being open about it and how much has that been a really conscious decision, knowing that there is this slight stigma? It has been conscious, but I find it helps me. I like talking about it. I feel the openness helps me. And you know, you take the press, I've had a lot of grief from the press and all sorts of things, but not over this. I said earlier, I feel like I make a difference. I mean, there's so much of this out there. The thing about stigma and taboo is real, but I've never been ashamed of having had a breakdown. I'm very proud of what my brother achieved despite, you know, having this, what he used to call this horrible shitty illness. And I think until we actually feel we can be as

open about our mental health as we are about our physical health, then I think we're not really a civilised society. So yeah, it's a conscious thing. It's a conscious thing. Tell me something trivial that you fail at. Are you rubbish at cooking? Did you fail your driving test? Oh, my God. How come you hit on those two? Have you done the research? No.

I was just picking up on a vibe, clearly. So I failed my driving test five times. Did you? Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's the most I've heard. That's wild. And cooking. Look, I was telling you about Grace, my daughter,

phoning up a programme I was hosting to berate my feminist credentials. She rightly said she has never, ever seen me cook. Sorry, have you ever cooked anything, or is it just that she's never seen you? I cooked a tuna and potato souffle for Fiona with her help in 1981. That is it.

So does Fiona do all the cooking? Or do you just rely on Deliveroo? No, Fiona cooks well and quite likes cooking. I just don't cook. And of course, I normally say I can't cook. But of course, I've never really tried. And do you think you're a better driver because you failed those five times?

I'm a fantastic driver. Can you parallel park? I can do anything in a car. I don't actually like driving. No, me neither. I had a thing. Two of my failures, something happened. I think it was a kind of psychological thing.

My knee locked. I had a knee, it locked, and I just couldn't get the foot off the clutch. And I actually said to the guy, about a minute into the test, I said, listen, there's no point going on, is there? I've failed. He said, hmm, afraid you have. Well, you can drive now, even if you can't cook. I can drive. I don't like failing. I mean, I'm terribly, horribly competitive.

You know, even like a quiz thing, I would not like to lose. In fact, I think Fiona would say that one of the many horrible experiences I've inflicted upon her was when I agreed to do the celebrity who wants to be a millionaire for charity with her valentine's day special. Right. Fiona is like the hero of this whole interview. Right. Well, we didn't do very well because I think we were the only people ever to have to ask the audience, and I think it was the first question. Oh, wow.

It was, whose catchphrase is knowing me, knowing you? It's Alan Partridge. Well, I'm glad that you know that, and I'm also pleased that 96% of the audience knew that. Well done, the audience. Who was your phone-a-friend? Was it Tony Blair? My phone-a-friends were... Phones-a-friend were Alex Ferguson, Charlie Faulkner and Ian Kennedy.

Ian Kennedy is a very nice man. However, he was the one we phoned because we thought he would know the answer to the question which country launched the Skylab space station in 1967. France, Britain, America or Russia. And you talk about thinking correctly under pressure. If you look at the footage, which I've looked at several times because they keep repeating it on Dave and other such places.

As soon as the question comes up, I say immediately say immediately well there's no way it's france yeah i would say it is france because that's the one you least expect right well i say there's no way it's france because they wouldn't have called it something yeah they would call it exactly exactly so we go 50 50 and it goes to fr France or America. We phone a friend and Ian helpfully says I really don't know. And we then go for France. It was America. Oh

God. Fiona said as we got in the car, I'm never ever doing anything like that again. Okay, my final question is not about Skylab or Alan Partridge. It is would you ever do Strictly Come Dancing? No Did you watch Ed Balls?

I watched clips on social media He loved it, he absolutely loved it He's reinvented himself as a result Yeah, he totally loved it The only celebrity stuff thing that I did was I did The Apprentice when it was down to Piers and I who got fired And Piers got fired And of course Piers loved being fired

He said, oh no, everybody's going to be talking about me. The apprentice in politics. I don't know if that mixes anymore, given what's happened in the United States. Alistair Campbell, thank you so much. My pleasure. You have been a wonderful interviewee. I'm so glad I met you and was surprised at how much I liked you.

Thank you very, very much for opening up. Thank you.