How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S2, Ep6 How to Fail: Farrah Storr

Episode Date: November 7, 2018

Farrah Storr, the award-winning editor-in-chief of Cosmopolitan, is this week's guest on How To Fail With Elizabeth Day and I'm so thrilled to have her on as have basically been stalking her on Instagram for years. In person, she does not disappoint. We talk about the curse of perfectionism, the notion of  having-it-all (ish) and Farrah's decision to be a child-free woman. We also cover her failures as a child carol singer (and why she still can't face doing karaoke because of it), being rejected from the university of her dreams, disordered eating, failing at a job she'd wanted for ages and failing at a blind date with the man who later became her husband. Plus, we discuss her new book, The Discomfort Zone, and explore how doing what scares you can sometimes be the pathway to success. And we talk about Farrah growing up in Manchester, the half-Pakistani daughter of the local green-grocer who was desperate to 'blend in' and her creepy habit of shaving the heads of her Barbie dolls when she was a girl. How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate Books Farrah's book, The Discomfort Zone, is out now published by Piatkus Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayFarrah Storr @Farrah_StorrChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and

journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest today is Farah Storr, the award-winning editor-in-chief of Cosmopolitan. Since taking the helm at the magazine in 2015, Storr has overseen an unprecedented 59% circulation rise, partly because of her bold and stimulating editorial choices, which include putting plus-size model Tess Holliday on the cover in September, a decision that prompted a national conversation and a meltdown from Piers Morgan on Good Morning Britain. Surely the sign of a great judgment call. from Piers Morgan on Good Morning Britain. Surely the sign of a great judgment call. In 2017, Farah was named as one of only 36 BAME leaders in the UK and has also been a mentor on Britain's Next Top Model, which as a reality TV obsessive, I personally find very exciting.

In her brilliant first book, The Discomfort Zone, Storr writes eloquently about how doing what scares you can sometimes be the pathway to success. And given her extraordinary achievements at such a young age, the three incidences of failures she has chosen to talk about today absolutely prove this to be the case. So Farah, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having us. We're in the Cosmopolitan offices. It's a very busy office, so you might hear people on the phone or tapping away. But thank you very much for inviting us into your work world. No, thanks for coming in. And it's a real pleasure to meet you because we actually just been chatting before the podcast started about failure and discomfort in relation to your book. But I wonder if you could talk to me a bit about your relationship with failure. How do you

feel about it? Well, it's changed I think like lots of things because now of course I celebrate failure and actually I tried to take the shame out of failure but it's taken like almost 40 years to get to that place and actually as a kid I was kind of very high achieving perfectionistic child so failure was not anything that I wanted on my radio I didn't want it anywhere near me and so it's taken a very long time to a get to grips with it and b to see the benefits of it I'm very open with all of my team at Cosmo now that if you're failing for the right reasons you know don't fail because you're just careless and crap and can't really you know don't really give a shit but if you're failing because you're trying something new and you're going into

uncharted territory then it's a good thing and it's to be applauded. Because you talk in the book about BMD, brief moments of discomfort, and the idea that discomfort is only ever fleeting. Right. And it's something that I've learned too, that when you're in the grip of a panic, you need to remind yourself consciously it's going to pass and it will be okay. Yeah, I mean, what's that thing, this too shall pass? I mean, I always think about that and I have done all my life. I mean, what's that thing? This too shall pass.

I mean, I always think about that and I have done all my life. Yeah, I mean, and I think that's why people don't go into things because they think experiences are, I don't think this is a word, but a kind of monolithically or entirely composed of discomfort. And of course, that's not true.

You know, most difficult experiences, you can break it down, you know, into what scares you the most. And usually there'll only be about three points I kind of worked out. So for me, if I'm public speaking, I used to hate the beginning bit, because when you have to get everyone's attention, I found it hopeless. Middle bit where perhaps I would forget my lines or something. And then I always used to struggle with an ending. How do you give like a victorious sign off? And I think one of the things I always think is like, you

should only really concentrate on the things you can control. If you can figure out a plan for those brief moments that you're really scared of, and you can always figure out a plan, then everything in between is kind of as easy as breathing. It really is. And weirdly can become enjoyable. So it's that idea that preparation is power. Yeah, absolutely. And you told me that as a child, you competed in lots of athletics competitions. Yeah. Did that teach you about the necessity of preparation and stress management? Do you know what? I don't think it did because I kind of was competing at a very high level, but it was very much like just get on the track, just run.

And really, we were all kids with raw talent. We didn't actually get any of the preparation, I think, from the coaches. And they were great people, but, you know, there were people doing it in their spare time. So it was really interesting athletics as a child doing it because you have all this raw talent. And then if I lost and I lost a lot, you just thought you were a complete failure. And actually, I think, had I been taught about the psychological preparation in competing, I don't think I mean, I left athletics because I just lost too many times. And I was like, this is just ridiculous. And of course, I did what lots of kids do is I blamed other people for it, rather than looked at it myself that actually maybe it wasn't preparing the right way. Maybe

it just wasn't good enough. So no, but I think it was a missed opportunity. I think sports is a really good opportunity for kids to learn how to prepare for the discomfort of failure. It's so interesting you say that, actually actually because recently I interviewed for a piece that I was writing the sports psychologist at Chelsea FC and he said exactly that that as a child you often associate failure with a personal failing in a race or in a squash match and that the key to being an elite athlete or footballer in this case was to see a game as just a game yeah and not to attach too much outside pressure to it which yeah I'd agree with that but but emotion you I suppose when you're younger people don't tell you and not adults still do it we think emotionally and I try to take that

out of everything now if you can take the emotion out I think he's absolutely right and see it as just a game you can a become at peace with failure but you can also then dissect the failure I think when you start to take it really personally that's when you don't want to go near and you don't want to investigate what went wrong because it's too injuring to yourself and as a child when you lost a race how would that manifest itself like were you a crier as a child or did you get angry no I wasn't a crier but I was really hard on myself. So it was very much like, you're crap. You're just not good enough.

And I would give up. So actually, even in races, people always used to say, the problem with you, Farah, is you're brilliant. When you come out of the starting block, I was always winning. So from the beginning of the race, I was always leading. And then I didn't really have the stamina. I did 100 meters. It was just that bit too far for me.

And when I would see people passing me I'd start to slow down and so my finish was always terrible and actually it's one of my failings I think now in life is that I'm not a good I don't see things through so I need a team around me who can I'm great at the ideas I'm great at getting things out the starting block but I'm very bad at the finishing. And I think with races, I gave up before I even hit the finish line. And so rather than investigate what went wrong, I would beat myself up and then I would, well, I left athletics altogether. I think I left at my peak when I was really good.

Then I became, well, I became kind of obsessed with academia after that. How interesting. I'm a person of extremes, Elizabeth. Yes, I love it. I mean, you're talking to someone who absolutely hates running, which is something I've spoken about on the podcast before. I'm a person of extremes, Elizabeth. Yes, I love it. I mean, you're talking to someone who absolutely hates running, which is something I've spoken about on the podcast before.

I'm terrible at it, so I'm just in awe of anything you achieved. But talking about failing to follow through, it brings us on to your first instance of failure, which was that when you were little, you were chosen to sing the Christmas carol song, along with another girl. How did you feel about that? Did you feel you

were good at singing do you know what I have to say the other girl was called it's weird isn't it you remember she's called Heather Pilkington and she was really good and it was one of those things as a child you are aware that somebody is much better than you she was much better and so when I was chosen I have to say part of me was like really but the fact that they chose two of us in itself was slightly suspect so yeah it was, it was amazing, you know, because I hadn't really shown any promise at that stage at school. I didn't really stand out. There's nothing really remarkable about me.

So to actually be picked to sing the solo, what is it called, once in Royal David City, it was a really big deal for me. And I, as all children want to do, I felt really special. But, of course, it didn't feel so special when I actually performed because I was terrible. And I'm going to ask you to sing it now. No, I'm kidding. So you knew you were terrible or do you think you were just beating yourself up about being terrible? Possibly. Do you know what? I think I was above average. But again, I suppose it goes to the perfectionistic nature. I didn't think I was good enough to do it. But obviously,

a teacher had taken a chance on me for whatever reason and kindness perhaps because I always tried really hard you know one thing I do do is I always say I'm not particularly talented but I throw everything into stuff I work really hard and I sung the carol I think I did the first night and then Heather did the second and I only ever got one night because they never asked me and I think we had a week of it and Heather did the remaining week and I got taken off and I remember when I was singing the solo my voice cracked and again probably like the race really I suppose when I was in the middle of singing it my voice cracked I thought this is the end I can't do this and obviously the teacher decided the same and I wasn't ever brought back again. It was really hard because it was humiliating, you know,

and humiliation at that age is really difficult. Even though people were kind, no one ever told me why they'd taken me off. You know, as a... I think I may have been 11. You know why you were taken off. So there was real shame attached to it. Do you know what happened to Heather Pilkington? Are you friends with her on Facebook?

No, I'm not. I don't use my Facebook. I do not know what happened to Heather Pilkington? Are you friends with her on Facebook? No I'm not I don't use my Facebook I do not know what happened to her she was very very nice girl I never felt any ill will towards her but no it's amazing that I still remember her name to be honest. Well isn't it incredible actually how clearly you remember that thing that happened in childhood at the age of 11 and I think so many of those experiences are so formative that you do remember someone's name you you know, 30 years on from that. But what do you think you took from that? Did you take anything positive from learning how to cope with public humiliation? I think what I learned was that because I always hung on to it and it's always something that I've lived by. And some people sometimes may say I'm a little bit blunt, but it's about trying to be honest

with people and explaining to them why something isn't good enough. I think that was the thing. And I think the teacher was very, I think she was called Mrs. Schofield, was very well-meaning. She was a lovely lady and she would have had her reasons for doing it. Perhaps she thought I was too fragile. Perhaps that was the way of my school was to coddle the kids she thought the best thing to do was to not tell me but now I always think what I take from that is people know I think people know when they're not performing properly and so the kindest thing you can do is actually take them aside and tell them and work through the failure with them because you know if it was that my voice wasn't strong enough it cracked it couldn't reach the right notes I think if somebody had dissected it and gone, well, here, you're 80% good at this, but the 20%, the finish through again, this is what you need to do.

I think I would have stuck with it. And I think that's the thing with failure is never walk past a mistake. And I think a lot of my life, certainly when I was a kid, I walked past a lot of mistakes. And I think the school, rightly or wrongly, no one ever talked to me about why I got taken off and I never sang again I don't do karaoke I don't go near singing I don't like it it makes me deeply uncomfortable wow so you're gonna ask me to do karaoke no well I don't do karaoke either unless it's rapping because I can't sing but I can rap because it's just speaking words quickly maybe I'll do that I believe that's how Dr. Dre thinks of rapping. Did you fit in at school?

Did you like school? Yeah, I did like school. I didn't have a lot of friends by choice. I was very much about intimate friendships. So I had a best friend who I was very, very, very, very close to. So again, it's the extremes. It's all or nothing. I wasn't good in big groups because people laugh and think I'm an extrovert but that's something I've had to build towards because I kind

of looked at the world and saw rightly or wrongly then actually if you want to get ahead unfortunately and I think it's changing now that being quite intense being quite introverted probably wasn't going to be the way forward for me but that's my natural disposition so yeah but unfortunately and I think it is changing it's not the people I saw at the top of the table so I changed but at school I was really happy it was my one friend and it was about study and athletics for a little while so I wasn't I was an intense brooding child because I wanted to ask you a bit I actually want to embarrass you by quoting something that you wrote in one of your many fantastic pieces. This one was for the Times magazine and it was about how you dress.

And you talk about your upbringing and the fact that your father was from Pakistan. And you talk about growing up in inner city Manchester and you write, It was a place where the only Asians people knew ran the local greengrocers. And my father was that man. You were a Paki, whether you were Indian, Bangladeshi, or even from Tehran. On Saturdays, slap bang in front of boots, a group of snarly men in leather jackets, black boots, and close cropped hair would sit and stare. My mother always walked on the opposite side of the road. I think that's so evocative. And I wanted to ask you how aware

you were of all of those things when you were growing up and the racism that underlay them. Yeah. Well, interestingly, when my dad read that, my mum went, you know, it was a delicatessen for it. It wasn't a greengrocer's. So I got in a lot of trouble for that. They sold fruit and veg, you know what I mean? But he actually, you know, he left that soon after. Well, look, I mean, you know what I look like for those listeners who don't I kind of can pass for anything oh well that's very kind but I could pass for anything and actually a lot of the time I tried to pass for something else so there was deep shame attached to being half Pakistani and you know my dad he changed his name from Javed to Jerry he kind of anglicized himself not because of any sort of deep-seated

self-hatred but to get along and get ahead I mean god he told me this and we'll probably get in trouble he told me he used to wear a star of David so he'd get more customers in the shop yeah I was like yeah exactly but yeah I was really ashamed of it and I'll never forget the one this is could be because before the podcast we were talking about how I hate parties. And I had a party once. I think I was eight, and it was at the Happy Eater, just outside Manchester City Centre. I don't know why I decided to have a party. I think I thought it was the dumb thing.

And I had a party, and my mum used to drop me off at school. So my mum is blonde-haired, blue-eyed. So people kind of just presumed I was English. Or sometimes, you know, kind of wildly glamorous in Italian or Spanish. And I kind of didn't ever say any different but to get two carloads of kids to the happy eater from my school in Whitefield my mum had to take some kids and my dad had to take some kids I'll never forget there were two girls and one of the little girls saw my dad and she went and she looked horrified and I remember the other little girl patted her hand and went and so it really stayed with me and

so I was aware that I was different to everyone but you know what I never let it hold me back because someone said to me recently she said God how have you survived as a woman and a woman of colour and I said to her I said can I just stop you there I said I don't see myself as that I said if I just got distracted and if I said oh I didn't get that job because I'm a woman or I didn't get that job because I'm half Pakistani, or I didn't get that job because I'm half Pakistani, I said, I wouldn't achieve anything. It's not useful to think like that. And actually, Elizabeth, I don't think it ever has stopped me from getting ahead. I really don't think it has. But yeah, as a kid, it was uncomfortable. Yeah, it was uncomfortable.

And how important is that to what you do now? Are you very aware of having people of colour in your pages and representing a cross-section of society? Yeah, and actually it's everything. It's colour, it's sexuality, it's men. Do you know what? We have loads of men in the magazine. And also because I suppose my big thing, and I'm always going on at this at work, but it's like if you start to think in terms of groups,

it's a really dangerous way to see it so even though I am half Pakistani I'm me I can have very individual feelings and thoughts to somebody else who is half Pakistani and so sometimes I worry I suppose about group think that if you just see people as a group you know it's a bit like when you did sports day and your teacher would separate you from your best friend and they'd go, you're in team A and you're in team B. You stop to see the other person as individual, you just see it as a group. And it's a really dangerous thing to do. So do I see myself as a woman of colour? I kind of am, but I kind of see myself as far up. But yes, I'm very mindful of, do we have a good representation of everyone in the magazine?

And also give voices to those people so you know we did a really interesting piece this month about a lady who had been raped when she was at Columbia University and I'm sure you'll know a lot of the the beginnings of Me Too happened at Columbia with Mattress Girl and this lady's experience was very very different in that she said the rape was terrible of course but it didn't break me what broke her was when the sisterhood turned on her and it's really interesting so people could see that this is a story about rape and they think it's going to be one thing but her interpretation of that terrible situation was very different to what you would expect so

my big thing and it's the same with the Tess Holliday thing is I don't try to call anyone trolls everyone is totally allowed to have an opinion. And as long as that kind of shakes up people's thought processes, then I'm all for it. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah. I've gone off tangent. No, I mean, I know there's a whole pile of tangents there that I want to follow up. But I feel like that's for a private conversation that will last for many hours, possibly into 1am in the morning will no one rid me of this troublesome priest

this is a time of great foreboding these words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, these words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Hi, I'm Matt Lewis, historian and host of a new chapter of Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit. Join me and world-leading experts every week as we explore the incredible real-life history

that inspires the locations, the characters and the storylines of Assassin's Creed. Listen and follow Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts. But going back on track, so we were talking about you at school and the fact that you were happy at school. You studied hard. And when you left school, you applied that you were happy at school yeah you studied hard and when you left school you applied to Oxford University which brings us on to your second my second failure yeah well actually it wasn't even just applying when I was 17 I've been working towards it from about 13 so I left kind of abandoned athletics and my obsession with athletics so I was very

much I didn't even watch it I used to love watching on the tv I just abandoned it wow yeah so are you like that sorry just are you like that kind of personally too like if someone hurts you are you capable of just compartmentalizing it and moving on I have been yeah yeah I have been I probably like it in a lot of things in life and that is my failing that's a failure I need to work on is that there's a little bit more in between far it's not black and white which comes with age but yeah so from kind of 13 I knew I was really good at always having a goal. And the goal was I wanted to get to Oxford. And I think it's lots of different reasons. I think one is I was a middle child.

So I wasn't really, you know, in Asian culture, generally speaking, you're first born is your special kid. And then after that, you have my brother. But so he's the boy, you know, who's special. And then you have a youngest who is special and so being the third out of four didn't really felt like I had a place in my dad's eyes my dad always used to think I was quite because I like Barbie dolls and although he does always say I used to shave off the Barbie doll's heads he said it was really sinister amazing amazing facts so so I think by being academic I knew that and and this is true again generally

speaking of a lot of immigrants the way forward is you pursue education to get yourself out of whatever and so I remember thinking I wanted to get to Oxford but really it was a lot to prove to my dad that I was not worthy because he loved me so much but I wanted to be special I think it's all anybody wants to be I want to be noticed and so from 13 right up to 17 I just worked like a demon and all I wanted was to go to Oxford and of course when I got there and they have like what did you go to Oxford I went to Cambridge went to Cambridge the most annoying response I was that question sorry so it's like three days of interviews or something or it was when I went and I remember I got there and I was very different but again I didn't think about the colour things I've tried never to do that but I was when I went and I remember I got there and I was very different but again I didn't think about the colour thing because I've tried never to do that but I was when I look back

all the kids I was the only person of vague colour but it was more I noticed there was a class thing actually so it wasn't about colour it was like I was the only person with like a big northern accent and everybody else was lovely and I went through the interview process and again in the interview process they didn't really ask me very challenging questions and again a bit like the running I suppose I kind of knew in the middle of the interview that I wasn't going to get in I just thought do you know what for whatever reason I'm not sure that I'm gonna be accepted and of course they always give you the acceptance or rejection letter just before Christmas I remember getting the letter and it was it was rejection but you know I was devastated I was absolutely devastated

because I couldn't see a way out at that point but I think because I'd known when I was doing the interview I was slightly prepared for it but you know Elizabeth if I'd really wanted to go I could have waited a year and I could have got my grade and I could have tried again I actually think when I look back at Oxford now given what what I've told you about myself, quite extremist, I was at that point really intense, I'm not sure it would have been the best place for me. I just don't think it would have been. And of course, I then went to King's College and I came down to London. And because I was in London, I started to do journalism on the side. And so I would have gone down a very different path and probably it would have fed into a different side of my personality.

What were you applying to read at Oxford? English. And is that what you did at King's? I did English and French. Okay. No, do you know what? I tell a lie, it was in English and French I did. I applied at Worcester College in Oxford

and I did English and French at King's. And because so much of it had been wrapped up with wanting to make your father proud, what was it like when you had to tell him that you hadn't got in well I think that's why I dealt with it probably better because I have to say I thought that if I didn't get in I was a bit worried about what would happen to me but my dad didn't really give a shit it's like he didn't and that was the most liberating thing and I thought he would be deeply disappointed but he wasn't't. His reaction, weirdly, was not what I expected.

And that made it a lot easier for me. And of course, as I now know, the expectation, he never expected it. It always came from me. There's a drive within me. So no, so actually, even though I felt a real failure at the time, I think my dad saying, it's fine, it softened it. my dad saying it's fine it softened it and do you feel as I do that part of your drive comes from proving people wrong who underestimated you yeah yeah I think so do you know I'll never forget I mean our poor dad but I'll never forget again I must have been about six or seven and my dad saying to someone Tammy who's my sister Tammy's a clever one and Farah's the pretty one. And I don't think he knows that I overheard it. And again, I'm not blaming my dad for any of this because I think within me, you know, it's a nature nurture.

I think I am a very driven person naturally. I think kids that do sports are very driven. I think doing athletics made me perhaps more driven than my siblings. But yeah, I think it was about wanting to be seen as exceptional and wanting to prove to people and then so actually through a lot of my teenage years you know I used to wear glasses and make myself kind of look really unattractive and it was all about academia for me so yeah the damaged parents do it's so interesting I totally understand that because those sorts of comments stick with you. Yeah. Because you hear them at such an impressionable age.

Yeah. And you don't take them in any context, do you? You know, of course, it was like, well, Farah's also kind and she's smart. But yeah, you see the world in black and white. And it was like, I don't want to be just seen as a pretty little girl. It just didn't interest me. And again, when you got that rejection letter from Oxford, on a practical level, how did you process and cope with it? Well, I didn't go off the rails,

but I wound back the work quite a lot, got a boyfriend, just lived, actually. And weirdly, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I'd just loosened my own harness that I'd built myself. Yeah, I just relaxed, I chilled out a lot and I think I didn't do it in a self-care kind of way I actually did it in a well if Oxford don't want me then what's the point but actually weirdly it was kind of a weird sort of self-care that I needed I mean I didn't really process that failure my way of processing was was going out and getting a bit on it, I suppose. But not

terribly on it. I mean, I'm not that excited. I'm not that interesting. You know, now I look at mistakes and I set them. I didn't then. I didn't know. So you said to me just from a couple of things that you've said that you're very in tune with your own instinct. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Is that something that you've always had or that's developed over time? Because I think it can be quite difficult in the noisy world in which we now live to tune back into that instinct and to know what your gut is telling you. I think I've always been like that. I think it comes from spending a lot of time alone.

I'm very good with solitude. I'm very good at listening to my gut because, and I suppose I have a slightly different interpretation of gut because it's not gut is it it's pattern recognition so I'm really good at seeing a situation and recognizing that well I've done that before and actually because I've done it before I now know how to deal with this situation but I've always been really self-aware when it comes from two things it comes from writing I've always written I've always kept a diary to kind of make sense of things

because I've never had lots of friends to talk about things the way I process things as I write about them publicly sometimes and yeah I think it's time alone I mean even now you know my thing is gardening and that is time alone it's working towards a goal because you know you've got to have a goal to work towards I think that's the human condition needs something to strive for but the solitude is really important to me to make sense of I mean you must have that with writing if you can't think of something you go off and take a walk or do whatever and then it just comes to you absolutely absolutely and I'm a big proponent of the notion of sitting on a bus and not doing anything yeah just looking out of the window and not feeling

that that is wasted time because actually you need to leave the field fallow for a bit in order to grow anything absolutely and actually sometimes it's the most precious time isn't it is it's all make it because it's all within you it sounds very oprah but it is within you you just got to trust yourself that you know the answer but you don't just know the answer from out of nowhere you've got that's where you got to throw yourself into things and the more you throw yourself into things the more the answers will kind of bubble up. You mentioned solitude there. And I know that many people listening to this will probably have read, again, your brilliant writing on yours and your husband's decision to be child free. And I really wanted to talk to you about that. Because I think again,

not having a child for a woman is seen by certain other people as a failure. But actually what you have done by owning it and by writing about it so eloquently is show that it's not a failure at all. It's actually a form of your success. Can you tell us a bit about coming to that decision? Yeah. So again, I think it was one of those things that you blindly think you're going to do is like I've ticked off everything else.

It's the having it all thing, isn't it? Which Cosmo came up with. and it's not incredibly helpful advice I'd got to like 35 and I had a really happy marriage and we'd moved to the country we had a dog and it was like right what's next and it's like oh we have kids and we we never took it as seriously as I think perhaps that's why I think there was a feeling within me that perhaps it wasn't right but we tried we tried half-heart heartedly. I mean, my husband always jokes at the fertility monitor, gather dust. Like, do you know what I mean? But we tried. And we tried. And it didn't happen. And actually, my mum said this recently, she goes, you've been really at peace with not being able to have kids. Because the ages of 13 to 16, I'm going to sound like such a mess up, I had an eating disorder as well. And so

I didn't have periods for years. And so there was always a feeling when I was growing up that I wonder whether I will have problems conceiving later in life. So I wonder if in the background, that knowledge meant I wasn't as devastated when it didn't happen. So anyway, it didn't happen. And then we went down, I had made an appointment, I think it was at Canterbury to talk about IVF. And the lady went through, you know, it's like 42% chance. And I was like, is that it? And she went, it's really good, Farah. And I was like, oh.

And then I just got back home and I was like, do you know what? I'm not sure I want this enough. Because obviously, going through IVF, I know lots of people who've had it, it's really hard. It can do damage to the relationship. I didn't think I wanted kids enough to go through it. And so I remember I walked, I just kind of walked into the bedroom and I just said to Will, my husband, I went, I'm not sure I want to go through with this. And I'm so grateful. He was like, I'm so glad you said

that because I feel exactly the same. And we just kind of made peace with it of course the world around didn't make peace a lot of people rather than seeing me as a failure I think a lot of people's interpretation was oh it's such a shame because you'd make such good parents but it's enough for me I mean I always say it's like having it all ish and that's kind of what I've got I've got the good career I know what makes me tick which is nature and solitude and my dogs. And I have a really good marriage and that's kind of enough for me. And it is. Life is sacrifice. You don't get to have it all. You just don't. And if you can make peace with that, then you're probably going to be happier down the line.

Having it all-ish is amazing and I want it on a T-shirt. It's like my favourite new motto. It's the best you can hope for, I think. You mentioned that having an eating disorder as a teenager. Have you made peace with that? Because I know it's something that doesn't go away that you have to live with every single day. Yeah, I mean, I had disordered eating right up until I think, which is ironic that I went to glossy magazines, of course, right up until I was about late 20s. So, you know, it was quite bad when I was kind of a teenager. And then it was always disordered.

Yeah, it was late 20s. And you know what I think it was? I think by my late 20s, I kind of got into my stride with my career, certainly with my writing and what I wanted to do. And it probably took the emphasis off the way I looked. That's one of the reasons why, you know, the whole uproar about Tess Holliday, it's not really about obesity. I don't think people

look at that and go that's going to spark an obesity epidemic because the truth is and maybe I've been guilty of this is thin is everywhere and thin has always been seen as a symbol of success and so I think with this cover and all the covers we do and we have plus size we have plus size women I mean actually our model shoots I was saying to my fashion director recently we don't even really go to model agents anymore we use real people I mean that's what we do it's all it's changed a lot I think it would have been helpful for me growing up to have seen what different bodies can look like I mean that's not to blame the culture I always take acceptance for everything you know you've got to look within yourself because you can't change what you can't control but yeah I think perhaps my achievements elsewhere in my life kind of made me think as I

got older do you know what you can take the emphasis off the way you you look now and I think that's a good thing for getting older you know as you lose your looks as you get older something else has got to take up the slack and I think for me career but not only career just contentment in my my relationship and my home life I think takes the slack for me. Well, talking of your career, your third failing is about when you had a big job when you lived in Australia. Yeah. And you failed at it. Yeah.

In what way did you fail? Oh, it was dreadful. I was terrible. And you know what? I got greedy, Elizabeth, because I'd gone to Australia. I'd got a job on a really nice magazine. And then this other magazine, who I cannot name, but was a big, it was a fashion magazine. And, you know, working on a fashion magazine, I'd never really worked on a fashion magazine.

So it was like a really big deal. And it did very serious journalism. A job came up there and I'd only been in my job, which took me out to Australia for about six months. And then I left and took this job. And it was a pretty hard environment, I to say but that's all right I just don't think I was good enough I didn't do a good job on editing people's pieces I don't think my ideas were right and you know what it's like I mean I don't know if you've ever had those jobs sometimes you have those jobs where you're no good and then everybody else starts to get a sense of it and then the kind of everyone

starts to turn a little bit it's not turn on you because they were good decent people but they kind of remove themselves from you it's like the smell in the room isn't it and and you feel it yeah do you know what I left though rather than get pushed out which I'm sure at the end they probably would have fired me although I don't know because I wasn't bad enough to be fired I just wasn't really really good and because I was running a big department I just wasn't good enough to do that job and so I left yeah I left with a lot of shame I think with that job but I did look back on that job and I've seen the editor since and I get on really well with her and I think for a long time because the easiest thing to do is to go well it was the people it was the person in charge. That's why I failed. It's not.

And also, you can't control that. So I have no ill will to her. I think she's an exceptional editor. I just think that I wasn't ready for that job. And did you choose to leave? Yeah, I chose to leave. And was it, again, that you were choosing to leave before the race was finished, in a way? You could tell that you were failing. And I could see the way it was going, and I could see,

and I think once in your lifetime, you all have these jobs where you've just gone a bit too far down the road that you probably can't pull it back and you know when that's going to happen and actually I always think again maybe it's listening to myself that once you're so far down the road that nothing's really going to change unless you know you win a paliza and then the whole world certainly thinks you're brilliant which was definitely not going to happen to me at that point you've got to get out because if you just keep on hanging in there I think you can get to a point where it does destroy self-esteem and so I got out and I was lucky another wonderful magazine kind of rescued me actually and were like we want you to come work

for us and I had a great time there but I do always look back on that job and think for a long time I was very angry and I blamed other people, but it was not their fault, it was me. Wrong time for that job, I think. You've mentioned during the course of our conversation your lovely husband, Will Storr. Yes. Brilliant novelist and non-fiction writer. And my favourite thing about your relationship, again, which I've gleaned from your journalism,

is that it started with a failed first date. Yes, yes. So you were set up on a blind date, is that it started with a failed first date. Yes, yes. So you were set up on a blind date, is that right? Yeah, so he worked with my sister on Loaded magazine, she was the features director. She consequently then married the editor. So it's like this weird thing where my husband, his old boss is now his brother-in-law, it's very odd. And yeah, my sister thought it was a good idea that me and Will got together based on what I don't know you know he was kind of well actually he probably on paper was my type he was troubled and he was brooding and he was a writer and we went on a date at the Falcon Pub in Clapham and I

was mad about someone else at the time and I spent the entire date going on about this other guy and poor Will had turned up in a new Ted Baker shirt which he'd bought and shiny shoes which I thought was awful because the guy I was obsessed with didn't really like me he didn't really give a shit about me and would turn up because he didn't care in dirty shoes and so this guy had made an effort and I was like oh god who wants this chap yeah and so yeah so I just monologued him the whole time about how great this other guy was and then we left the pub and he walked me to the train station and he hated me and my sister was hiding behind a bin she tells me with her watching seeing how it was going and I think for a distance it looked like it was going well and there was a

homeless I think it was a chap there's a homeless chap at the entrance to Clapham North tube station and Will gave him I think he gave him a tenner and I was like oh my god what have you done that for he's only going to put it in his arm. And Will just looked at me and kind of shouted, good. And then he just got on the train and went home. And so, yeah, I mean, he hated me. I mean, I didn't hate him. I just thought he wasn't right for me.

But it was a total failure. I mean, it was one of the worst dates I've ever had. And for him, he goes, oh, my God, I thought you were absolutely hideous. Yeah, I know. Amazing. But then years went by. Yeah, because he worked for my god I thought you were absolutely hideous yeah I know but then it all but then years went by yeah because he worked for my sister he was always kind of on my radar and actually he says the moment he fell for me was there used to be a club night in Soho called It's On and all of

the guys from Loaded would go and you know would have a great time and it was a very raucous place and I remember I used to go because I thought it's what I should do I think I thought I should network actually because I was very young at that point and I remember sitting in a dark corner by myself and I don't know why but I started crying because I just didn't like anyone around me I didn't like what they stood for I didn't like I think everything was just too much I was my early 20s and Will came over and he was like are you all right and I said to him, I hate everyone in here. And he went, yeah, so do I. And he said, that's the moment that there was a connection. He was like, I really like her. She's different. And actually, after that,

we became friends. I think he invited me to an art gallery. And we became very, very good friends. Of course, I had lots of boyfriends throughout that time. Will didn't have anyone. And then I think about three years into our friendship friendship and it was a really intense friendship I used to live in town at that point and he would cycle over from Brixton where he lived and we would then walk around the city of London until like three in the morning just talking and I remember he went to Glastonbury and he phoned me from Glastonbury and he said oh do you know what there's loads of really funny things here. He said, but nobody would find them funny in the way you do.

And then at the end of the conversation, he went, but I have met someone. And I just, oh my God. And I just said to him, I went, I think you should come back to London. And he went, really? I went, yeah. And then he got on. So it was the Saturday night, Glastonbury. He got on the train.

He came all the way back. He came to my flat. He must have got in at about two. And I remember I was putting on makeup and I was like, this is really weird that i'm putting on makeup to see will and i opened the door and we kissed and so weirdly i always said god it's so unromantic because we were best friends and will's like it's the most romantic because there was something greater at work again i guess it's like your body knows it knows what's right for you all those feelings your kind of limbic system, it knows more than your perceptual system sometimes.

It just knows what's right for you. I wish people could see my face right now because it's like I'm grinning, but I've also got tears in my eyes because that is the most romantic story. It's like a film. Yeah, but it took a long time. You know, the relationship for years, it was like, oh, is this right?

It's not this big coup de feu there. I was worried, and he was was that friendship was it the best recipe for a long lasting love affair and of course it's been the very best recipe but when you're 23 I didn't know if it was exciting enough well that's the thing because I think in your 20s you're looking for fireworks that's it and you're looking for the rom-com narrative and that's what you expect and then you just think well I'm not going to settle for anything less. But actually, I think the best fireworks can come as a result of a slow burn. Totally.

I mean, that's what, you know, we'll never see When Harry Met Sally. And he watched it a few weeks ago. And he's like, oh, God, he went, actually, it kind of is the stuff of rom-coms. It's just not exactly the fireworks, which I thought you needed in your early 20s. You needed to have fireworks with someone. And actually, you don't. You're right, the fireworks can come in your 40s. And I really have. I mean, I was talking about it the other day and someone went,

you should see what happens to your face when you talk about your husband. She went, it's quite exceptional. So yeah, they come. And that's a hugely successful and fulfilling relationship that has come out of failure, which is really what this podcast is all about. Yeah, totally, totally. So if you have a terrible first date investigate it or go on another one don't discount it don't discount it did being on britain's next top model as a mentor did it teach you how to pose in photographs oh god no i still can't if you look at my instagram i can't see

myself in pictures when people i mean we'll probably take a picture after this and i'll go yeah don't look at it no it didn't it didn't want to look at it. No, it didn't. It didn't at all. What did it teach me? Well, it taught me, actually, I was pretty mean to people, but it did teach me that actually you've got to tell people like it is. No point telling someone that's never going, it's a bit like the X factor, you know, when these kids are raised on, you're amazing.

You can be anything you want to be. Sometimes you can't be. And you just need the kindest thing you can do sometimes is tell someone you're probably not cut out for this so yeah I had a really mean streak in it yeah no posing for pictures and what do you think of Meryl Streep in the Devil Wears Prada and are you like her no I don't know I'm not like her at all yeah and sometimes you get a bit insulted because when people go god you're not at all what I thought an editor would be like but I am tough in different ways so I'm really tough on I mean everybody wants to be seen as fair I may not be fair but I'm really tough on editing because I still edit pretty much every

single page and I go through it line by line with people so that's where my toughness comes in but no and then also you've seen my desk I don't have a glamorous life I mean I don't you know and actually if you go into journalism for that you're gonna be really disappointed yeah never go into journalism for glamour money well you go for the richness of the experience don't you because as you know if like me you're an introvert and you don't like small talk you get to ask really nosy questions to really brilliant people I say this all the time you're so right it's a wonderful shortcut so you don't have to do any of that awful networking stuff in that horrible nightclub in Soho

surrounded by people you don't like. You don't have to do it, no. You go straight into talking about the stuff that matters. And sometimes, I guess this goes back to my friendships, sometimes that's enough. The friendship doesn't go anywhere after that, but it's enough that you had that amazing conversation and you connected for a little bit.

That's enough for me. Farrah Storr, we've had an amazing conversation. We've connected for a little bit, that's enough for me. Farrah Storr, we've had an amazing conversation. We've connected for a little bit. Thank you so much. It's been really, really wonderful talking to you. And thank you so much for being so sharing and open. And now we've got to take that selfie that we'll both hate. Oh, God.

Okay. Thank you very much. You're very welcome.