How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S3; Ep3 How to Fail: Jonny Benjamin

Episode Date: January 16, 2019

Ok, so full disclosure: I cried during this interview. You will quite possibly cry too. You will quite possibly need a box of tissues next to you as you listen. And you will quite possibly leave feeling enlightened and uplifted by the magical, gorgeous man that is Jonny Benjamin, MBE.Jonny is a mental health campaigner and someone with a truly extraordinary story to tell. In 2008, Jonny was 20 and standing on the edge of Waterloo Bridge about to jump. A passing stranger noticed his distress and stopped to talk to him. It was a momentary decision that saved Jonny’s life.We talk about his journey to track that stranger down and about what Jonny has learned about himself along the way. We also talk about Jonny's diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder and his experiences of living with 'The Truman delusion' (so-called because the person believes that their lives are staged reality shows being filmed on camera). We talk about mental health in the workplace and being open about our fallibilities. I am so grateful that Jonny also chose to talk about Irritable Bowel Syndrome and the realities of living with that when you're just trying to get on with life (it makes dating a bit of a nightmare and a lot of people don't really understand what it means). Along the way we chat about Amy Winehouse, feeling left behind in your 20s, the importance of self-compassion and why love isn't ever conditional on whether you succeed or not.I hope you are moved as much as I was by this episode.Also if anyone has any single gay men wanting a set-up with an incredibly handsome, funny and sensitive individual then feel free to DM us - details below ;) How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate Books The Stranger on the Bridge by Jonny Benjamin is out now published by Pan Macmillan.Beyond Shame, Beyond Stigma is a new mental health charity for young people co-founded by Jonny.You can learn more about the WRAP (Wellness Recovery Action Plan) by visiting the Rethink website.If you are affected by any of the issues raised in this podcast, you can call the Samaritans on 116 123 or visit their website.  Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayJonny Benjamin @mrjonnybenjaminChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by car and other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better.

I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Johnny Benjamin might not be a familiar name to you, but his story probably is. In 2008, Johnny was 20 and standing on the edge of Waterloo Bridge, about to jump. A passing stranger noticed his distress and stopped to talk to him. It was a momentary decision that saved Johnny's life. Six years later, Johnny launched an internet campaign to find that stranger. More than 319 million people around the world followed the search until it was picked up by a TV breakfast show, which finally reunited Johnny with his Good

Samaritan, Neil Laborn. Their reunion was filmed for a Channel 4 documentary, and Johnny's book, The Stranger on the Bridge, was published earlier this year. It tells of the journey Johnny made, both personally and publicly, not only to find the person who saved his life, but also to explore how he got to the bridge in the first place and to further understand his diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder. health campaigner and was awarded an MBE for his work in 2017. But you don't have to take my word for it. Johnny's admirers include William, the Duke of Cambridge, who says, the word inspirational gets bandied around a lot. But Johnny Benjamin is truly deserving of that adjective. Johnny, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for coming. The last time we met was at a panel that we did for Facebook, where we had to get up very early in the morning.

And I was chairing it, and I got to hear Johnny and Neil tell their story, and I was so blown away by it that I knew you had to come on the podcast. Oh, thank you. And I know that you're very practiced at telling that story of how you got to that bridge that night in 2008 but I wonder if you could tell us now what had happened that particular day to lead you to that point well I think it was a build-up of uh having a mental breakdown at the age of 20 you know I was a student at the time in university and I'd been ill for a while, but I'd hidden it from everyone and I'd masked it. But yeah, in my first term of my third year, my final year in Manchester University, I had this breakdown.

I became psychotic. I ended up in this psychiatric hospital and got my diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder. And it was that. It was that really. That was the kind of straw that broke the camel's back really when I got that diagnosis I remember when the psychiatrist sat me down and he said look you've got this diagnosis schizoaffective disorder and I was like what's what was that and he said well it's this combination of schizophrenia and bipolar and it's like my whole world just came crashing down when I got that diagnosis because you know growing up we didn't talk about mental health I come from a quite conservative Jewish background and we never talked about mental health. Particularly when I heard the word schizophrenia, when the psychiatrist said this schizophrenia, everything I saw and read about schizophrenia growing up was just negative.

I never ever saw anything positive about people living with schizophrenia when I was growing up. So when I got that diagnosis, it just felt like my world had sort of come to an end. I thought, what's the point? I mean, it was hopeless. And the hospital I was in, it was hopeless. No one around me was getting any better. When I was in hospital, I just got worse. And so a month into my stay in the hospital,

one day, just something in my mind almost kind of snapped, I remember. I can sort of go back there. It was horrible. I just remember being like, I cannot do do this anymore there is only one way out of this and that is suicide there is no other way out there's no other way out to escape from this nightmare I believed that was going to be the rest of my life in hospital being ill a burden on my family yeah uh when I made that decision to end my life it was like oh this is going this is going to sound awful, but I kind of felt a bit liberated. Unless you've been there, I don't think people can understand, but I was in such despair and pain that I finally had a way out,

and I kind of felt liberated. And so that's what led me to run away from the hospital. I managed to escape. I said I needed a cigarette. And they let me out, and I ran as fast as I could, and I ended up on this bridge. And then obviously this stranger came along and just stood next to me and there was something about him and maybe also him being a young guy. I just felt a connection. I felt a connection.

And I hadn't um a connection I felt a connection and I hadn't felt a connection there was something about this stranger and he was very grounded and he was very calm and he was very um kind very gentle I just I don't know I hadn't had this interaction with someone before mental health I was suicidal in hospital and people were almost kind of scared, not scared of me, but people were wary of me, I think, in the hospital. And every time I said I felt suicidal, they would send me back to the suicide ward. And the suicide ward is somewhere just people just sit and watch and they don't talk to you.

They just sit and they watch 24-7. But this guy was invested and he, I don't know, he... He connected with you. He connected, he connected and that was what and he, I don't know, he... He connected with you. He connected, he connected and that was what I needed, I think. Because I listened to this interview actually on another podcast called Waking Up. It's a Sam Harris podcast. And he was interviewing a journalist called Johan Hari who was talking specifically about addiction

and saying that the opposite to addiction was connection. And I think in a way sometimes that can work for mental health issues. Oh my gosh, I believe that. I really believe that. Connection is so key. It's just so key. When you feel disconnected from everyone and everything, I mean, I know that's what it felt like for me. And I was like, what have I got to live for? What have I got to live for? I've got this diagnosis and I felt like an alien.

And yeah, very disconnected from everyone. And what have I got to live for? So yeah, I completely agree. When you were standing on the bridge thinking those thoughts, were you also terrified of what you were about to do? Or had you got to the stage where you were accepting of it? There was an element of being terrified when I was on the edge, if I'm honest, because when I stepped over the edge of the bridge and saw how high it was,

there was an element of being terrified. Yeah, of course. I mean, I don't think it was very long when I got hazy memory, but I don't think it was very long between the time I stepped over the edge and this guy just standing next to me. And it really did kind of burst my bubble I was in. Yeah, and it shocked me that he was there and he wanted to talk to me. And I actually, I remember at first I was actually quite rude

because I didn't want him there. He was distracting me. And I said, there's nothing you can do. There's nothing you can say. But I think it was the fact that he didn't walk away and he very much stayed grounded and present and didn't react. You know, when I was, I started to talk about the pain that was going on in my head and he didn't, I don't know,

he just was calm and collected about it and accepting and kind of held the space for me to talk. It was very powerful. It was very powerful. Will you explain to us, before I ask you about what happened next, what schizoaffective disorder means? Yeah sure so schizoaffective disorder is a combination of schizophrenia and bipolar for me you know I had elements of schizophrenia so I at the time I was diagnosed I was hearing a voice I was delusional I had what I now know is called the Truman delusion where

people that have seen the Truman show actually start to believe they're in their own version of the Truman show. And this has become a recognized condition, the Truman delusion. So I thought there were cameras watching me. I thought, you know, everything was a film set and I was being broadcast on TVs around the world. I had that, I was, yeah, hearing a voice, delusional, but then I had the moods. So I was diagnosed with the bipolar element as well, because I had the moods. So I was diagnosed with a bipolar element as well because I had the mood swings. To be honest, for me, it was at that time I was just so, so badly depressed. Yeah, it was a combination of delusions, hallucinations, and also the moods, the mood swinging.

Yeah. So Neil, as we know he's now called, stepped in and made that vital human connection. Yeah. And then it got a little bit chaotic for you, didn't it? Yeah. I mean, we were talking for half an hour and finally he convinced me to come for a coffee. He said, you know, there's a coffee shop at the end.

This was January 2008 and it was freezing. It was absolutely freezing. And I was only in a T-shirt because, you know, I wasn't in a good place. And he convinced me eventually to go for this coffee. And I wanted to go because I, you know, as we've been saying, I had this connection. It was, I wanted to carry on the conversation because maybe there was some hope. There was some hope there, you know.

There was another way out that he'd just shown me. You know, I didn't have to go through with this. And I wanted to go for that coffee. So he helped me over the edge of the bridge back to the pavement. And when we were on the pavement, as soon as I got to the pavement, someone had called the police. And the police were waiting a bit further down the bridge. And they kind of just jumped out. And they just kind of made a beeline for me. And when I saw the police coming towards me, I panicked. I panicked because I knew what was going to happen. I was going to be taken away. And so I saw the police coming towards me, I panicked. I panicked because I knew what was going to happen.

I was going to be taken away. And so I tried to get back over the edge of the bridge. Actually, it was Neil that he stopped me. He grabbed me. And then the police basically took over as soon as he grabbed me. And they, well, for me, it was quite distressing. And I ended up being restrained and handcuffed and taken away. I was taken one way by one of the police,

and then Neil was taken the other way to have a... He gave a statement, Neil, and we were separated at that point. The police said to him, right, well, just go on your way to work. And for me, I was taken away and I was sectioned in the local hospital. So we were completely separated and, yeah, obviously never got that coffee and never even got to say sort of goodbye yeah it was it was very strange you know we'd gone from this situation where I'd calmed down and I was you know with Neil and I was but and then suddenly

it just became so frantic and distressing and I was now obviously, being sectioned was quite tough. And then from there, how do you get here to this handsome, eloquent young man sitting on my sofa being able to talk about this with such insight? It's a long journey. Yeah, a long journey, if I'm honest. Yeah. Oh, thank you yes yeah yeah long long long and an ongoing journey as well uh ongoing you know it it I think it never it never does it never does and that's fine and I think it's come for me it's been acceptance you know for the first few years I didn't want to accept it.

I was in my early 20s and my friends, they were graduating and they were getting jobs and, you know, moving forwards. And I felt stuck. I was this label and I just felt stuck. And so for my first few years, I was in denial. I wouldn't take my medication. I didn't want therapy. It was really tough, not just for me, but for my family and my friends because we didn't know how to talk about it.

We just, but in my, in my mid twenties, that's when I finally started talking. And my way of talking was I made YouTube videos because I could never talk to someone face to face, look someone in the eyes and talk about my thoughts, my feelings. It was just too embarrassing. I couldn't get over the embarrassment. So I started making these, these YouTube videos and it was just easier for me to talk to the camera. And I put these YouTube videos online and that's how I started talking. And I realized it was helping me and it was helping other people as well. It made me feel less isolated. It was helping other people to feel less isolated, people going through the same things. And so I started talking, I started

talking on YouTube and that led me to start talking to people around me it built my confidence to talk and I guess other things over the years therapy wow therapy yeah I know you've obviously talked about therapy and it's been a lifeline massive lifeline as has a mindfulness for me again massive lifeline and I know I take medication as well but I think yeah coming to accept and also coming to be a bit more compassionate to myself and forgive myself you know I all those years I hated myself for everything that I believed I put myself through but but my family through and my friends through. And then finally, you know, just, I have something called CFT and CFT is compassion focused therapy. And that has been a kind of revelation to me. So the acceptance, the acceptance I think

has been, you know, I meet lots of people now in the work that I do who, you know, they say to me, how do you talk? I can never talk and I'll I'll never get to where you are and I say yeah you will because you know I was like you you know I couldn't talk about it but I think everyone can it just it does it takes time takes time um you know there's still a stigma stigma attached to mental health it's getting better but you know it's still there do you think that there's a there's a broader social issue where people still think of mental health issues as quote unquote failures? Yeah, I do a lot of work in corporates.

And I was in a corporate just last week and I was talking to a manager there who has mental health issues. And the manager said to me, you know, I can never talk about my mental health issues. You know, I wish I could talk like you, but I can never talk because it will be seen as a failure as a weakness people will judge me for it and judge my capability to work even though you know she was a senior manager and she'd done exceptionally well but she just said as soon as I reveal I've got mental health issues it will be something that people can hold against me and I just yeah I think it's very sad that we live in that it's getting it is getting better but we still live in that world where particularly

in workplaces I think people can't be open about their mental health for that fear of of being judged yes it makes me sad you spoke about this thing that really really struck me when we met at that panel a few months ago now, which was about people who live with mental health issues, which is so, so many of us. Yeah, absolutely. Is having a work plan developed? What did you call it? It was called something specific.

Yeah, it's called a WRAP, a Wellness Recovery Action Plan. And I started working for the charity Rethink Mental Illness and my very first day of working there they came around and they looked at my chair is the chair all right for my back and his computer screen you know the height is it all right for my vision and then they they came around and they said right we're going to do this uh wrap you know to look at your well-being and what we can do to support your mental health if you're struggling if you need help and it was great you know it just it was things like what signs can we look out for if you're struggling and and what can we put in place if you are struggling and for

me it was things like you know I'd come in after the rush hour or you know leave after the rush hour or make sure I take my hour lunch break you know I would sit at my desk and just kind of work through my lunch break but yeah take my hour lunch break and I had a relapse when I was working at Rethink and it was just so much easier because I just the rap was there with all the things in it you know that they're going to put in place you know my manager was like right from tomorrow you come in after the rush hour you make sure you take your hour lunch break I'm going to make sure you you go outside and have some fresh air just made life so much easier and it just from day one it was just very much it was such an open environment people talked about their mental health you know like

they did their physical health I've got cold I've got a migraine oh I've got depression or yeah I've been feeling really anxious so do you know what I mean it was amazing and that's how it should be I think it's such a phenomenal idea the wrap it really really stuck with me I was like yeah I wish every single workplace would adopt that I think they should yeah I think it would make a massive difference now you were reunited with Neil following this Facebook campaign that then went viral and was picked up by an ITV breakfast show what was the moment of reunion like was there I mean did you recognize each other I mean I know that it was a set up and you knew it was happening but was there a kind of familiar feeling of kinship yeah absolutely it took a while because I was I was so nervous you

know because the cameras were on us and I was like what if I don't recognize him and at first when he walked in I just went over to hug him and and but then it was it was when we actually sat down we sat down on a sofa and we began to talk and I'll never forget. Neil made this kind of gesture. He reached out his hand, you know, he was making a gesture while he was talking and like everything just clicked into place in my head. It was so surreal, you know, when he, I don't know, obviously he must have made this gesture on the bridge, but everything came back into my head. You know, I recognised him, I saw him there. It'd been absolutely hazy my memory I couldn't remember what he was like on the bridge but when I saw him and sat down and he started to

talk and he was making these gestures everything just came back and it was so surreal very surreal yeah just everything suddenly coming back into your memory but it was amazing to be able to sit there and just say thank you and just for him to see you know the progress that I'd made from that day where I was worst day of my life to now and for him it was it was just it was really special it was really special it's we forgot the cameras were there really we just talked and talked and talked and yeah it's incredibly special. And if you haven't seen that documentary, it is that moment where you meet is profoundly, profoundly moving. It really, really is.

And have you watched it back ever? It must be weird for you watching it back. Really weird. I don't like, I mean, I don't like watching myself anyway. So when I have to watch it back, it's cringing. But yeah, it's very surreal. It feels very surreal. It was also the way it sort of seemed to touch other people the campaign and the documentary because so many people as you

so many people are affected by mental health and also suicide you know suicide um because we do we talk a lot in the documentary about suicide and we're not afraid to talk about it and so many people have been affected by suicide and they feel they can't talk about it and again there's a stigma around suicide isn't there I mean messages from all over the world just really wow it was um quite amazing quite amazing will no one rid me of this troublesome priest? This is a time of great foreboding. These words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago,

these words supposedly uttered by a king over 800 years ago, set in motion a chain of gruesome events and sparked cult-like devotion across the world. I'm Matt Lewis. Join us as we unwrap the enigma and get to the heart of what really happened to Thomas Beckett by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History Hit. So if you're looking for a home for your worst opinions, if you're a hater first and a lover of pop culture second, then join me, Hunter Harris, and me, Peyton Dix,

the host of Wondery's newest podcast, Let Me Say This. As beacons of truth and connoisseurs of mess, we are scouring the depths of the internet so you don't have to. We're obviously talking about the biggest gossip and celebrity news. Like, it's not a question of if Drake got his body done, but when. You are so messy for that, but we will be giving you the B-sides. Don't you worry. The deep cuts, the niche, the obscure.

Like that one photo of Nicole Kidman after she finalized her divorce from Tom Cruise. Mother. A mother to many. Follow Let Me Say This on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new episodes on YouTube or listen to Let Me Say This ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. There is a huge stigma around suicide, isn't there? Even the language that we traditionally use, the idea of committing it as if it were a crime, as it used to be but is no longer.

Absolutely. And actually just changing our language, language I think can have a very powerful impact absolutely absolutely I mean that term commit suicide it yeah we still use it or people sort of politicians use it journalists use it now obviously there's guidelines there's something called the mental health media charter that someone called Natasha Devon amazing campaigner the mental health media charter she came up with the guidelines of what you can say in terms of suicide is really useful suicide was decriminalized decades ago and yet we still i speak to people who are bereaved by suicide and that does affect it affects you know they say he didn't commit or she didn't commit a crime or commit you know they were in so much pain and they felt they had no choice but to take their own lives and so yeah i think the language is it's really important the language and the language about around mental health as well is so important and I see sometimes I see things being misused like schizophrenia you know I

I never forget I was in a in the theater and the guy behind me sitting in the row behind me was talking about his boss and he was saying oh she's such a schizo like one minute she's like this and the next she's like that she's like she's got split personality she's such a schizo. Like one minute she's like this and the next she's like that. She's like, she's got split personality. She's a right schizo. And I just wanted to turn around and be like, explain what schizophrenia is. It's not split personality. It's not jumping from one thing to another. It's not that at all.

A lot more education that's needed around mental health and suicide as well. Well, talking about the language that we use and the language that the media uses, Well, talking about the language that we use and the language that the media uses, you wanted to talk about Amy Winehouse, whose life was horribly affected by a lot of the media attention that she faced Amy. I was at university and I was going through a difficult time and I was out shopping. I think I was in New Look, I think. Oh, sorry. I wouldn't have expected that of you. You're so stylish.

Nothing wrong with New Look. I love New Look. No shade. And basically, Amy Winehouse's Rehab came on in the store and i'll never forget i've never had this where i heard the song i heard the lyrics i heard her voice and i was just like i can't move i have to stay i have to finish i can't leave the store before i hear it at the end of the song it just it was such a powerful song that really resonated with me it's very honest and so yeah i instantly became a fan when i heard Rehab just the way she was

singing so vulnerably so vulnerably as soon as I heard that you know I obviously googled her bought all her music went to see her live and obviously that was a difficult time for her you know when she released Rehab and her second album Back to Black you know the and the media gave her such a hard time and I was a massive massive fan and we there was a lot of I don't know for me in my head we had a lot of similarities you know she was a north london jewish girl north london jewish boy a bit of a rebel she was a rebel I was just a huge huge But I always, and also our journey seemed to mirror each other in a way. So when she became quite unwell, 2007, 2008, that's when I had my breakdown.

And she went through a better period, you know, eventually went through a better period. And that's when I started to go through my better period. And I really thought, you know, she's doing well. And I wrote her this massive long letter, literally just before she passed away. You know, there was this gig that she did. The last, I mean, it's just tragic. The last gig that she did in Belgrade, she was really unwell. You could see how unwell she was.

And she was forced out onto the stage and she didn't want to sing. And I wrote her a letter and I said, you know, it's OK. It's OK. You're real fans. We'll wait. We'll wait for however long you need. You know, there was pressure to release new music, to get back out on stage. I said, don't worry, don't worry, you know, we'll wait.

Your fans will wait and be kind to yourself. And just this massive long, I tried not to make it too like fan. Well, you know what I mean? But I just, I wanted to show that people did care because I felt like the way the media treated her was so unkind. So I wanted to know that she did have a such a positive impact I thought she was so brave and courageous and and then she suddenly passed away and uh I'll never forget I was working at the time actually

I was uh I was a an assistant wedding photographer which was interesting no it's good it was good and then this this one wedding I was at these sort of whispers start going around my phone literally I looked at my phone there were like seven missed calls from different friends and I knew I knew I knew as soon as I saw my phone and the missed calls from all all these friends I knew I knew she'd passed away and then someone said so one of the guests came up to to myself and the other photographer and said oh did you hear about Amy Winehouse she's she's dead and um he started saying well you know I'm not I'm not surprised we we all thought this would happen we knew it would happen and I sat there and I and my blood just went cold I and I just wanted to scream

you know you know because I always defended her for so many years because friends would say to me you know she's gonna die you know she's I was like no she won't she's why say that you know she'll overcome and obviously she didn't and I just felt so angry and felt I and so I went to her flat in Camden the next day to lay flowers and when I got to the flat all I saw were rows and rows of press there right on the front line where you know the fans should have been the fans were behind and I'll never forget I went to lay my flowers down with all the other flowers outside the flat and I heard a journalist say oh we need to get someone crying we need to get one of the fans crying she was saying it to the cameraman and I I just I just had to walk away and just I just yeah and I you know I think about Amy all the time and you know she's uh featured

quite heavily in my book even though you know I obviously I didn't know her I was just a fan but I just oh I just wish I'm sure she didn't read my letter not that it would have you know in my head I was like if she'd have read my letter you know that's what I was saying for a while if she'd have read my letter because this letter I spent ages on it and I poured so much sort of love into that letter and I was like should have read that letter should have known that someone out there really really did just want her to get better and didn't care about the music just wanted her as a person to get better and I still feel heartbroken that she's not here and she should still be here I believe and it's not just Amy but obviously you know there was Whitney Houston as well there was and that again I just all my favourite artists are Billie Holiday and Nina Simone and Etta James.

And all of these artists are, they're the most honest and vulnerable and beautiful singers. And they suffered the most. And yeah, it just, it carries on till today. And it just, it really makes me really angry. It's almost as if their truth comes from a tortured soul. But I think it's rather beautiful that you chose that as one of your failures, your failure to reach out to Amy Winehouse, because it's actually a very selfless failure.

It's about, you wish you could have saved someone else. And I think that that speaks rather highly of you and how wonderful that you still listen to her music and you think of her all the time. And it's so interesting hearing you talk about Amy Winehouse because my cousin, whom I'm extremely close to, had a very similar kinship with Prince. Oh, really?

And her daughter was born on Prince's birthday and things like this. And she feels the loss of him very acutely as well. And I think it's something, when you feel that for someone who expresses themselves and their art through music it's such a powerful thing it really is and and and almost well for me kind of felt like losing a friend yeah I said that to people and they're like that don't be ridiculous you know she's she's you're just a fan but you know when you have an artist that you I adored

and worshipped her and it feels more than just being a fan I found so much comfort in in her music and when I listened to her it was it was like again we talked about connection it had this connection and it did it felt like a massive loss and I'm sure you know talking about Prince and your cousin it must have felt like the most horrendous loss and anyone that I think has a favourite artist or an actor but particularly I think music favourite artists and they lose them I think it's especially in circumstances like Amy's where she was 27 the whole 27 club I mean it's heartbreaking it's heartbreaking because I believe it could have been very different so Amy Winehouse and connection leads us on to your second failure which is actually about feeling isolated again

and you wanted to talk about your diagnosis which again I'm so proud of you for talking about this it's your diagnosis with IBS irritable bowel, when you were in your mid-20s. Yeah. Because it just felt like such a sucker punch to you after the previous diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder. But, yeah, tell us about that. I mean, it's something I don't talk about as much because people see me as, you know, mental health, mental health.

So I don't often talk about the IBS. But it's something, again, that is chronic and, you know, continues to affect me and um people might disagree I really do think it was linked to my mental health and like when I was 23 24 I started to get really bad anxiety and I remember literally feeling it in my guts you know the tightness the twisting I then started to suffer from really bad cramps like I'd never had before. I had blood in my stools. And obviously I went to my doctor, referred on to a consultant.

I can never say it. A gastroenterologist. No. Gastroenterologist. Yes, you got it. Yes. Thank you. There you go.

He did all the tests, the colonoscopy, the endoscopy. Quite intrusive. And then actually initially he diagnosed me with Crohn's. That was a, yeah. And then put me on steroids and the steroids sent me into a psychosis. So I quickly came off them. And then we did some more tests and then he changed the diagnosis to IBS. And for me, I just, it was a blow.

It was a massive blow, especially, again, in my 20s. I was, I'd never had a proper boyfriend. I was, I wanted to, you know, have a relationship. And when I got that diagnosis again, I was like, well, who's going to want to be with me when I've got, you know, the mental health but also the physical health particularly IBS which is uh I mean I want to be with you and I'm not a gay man so seriously well I don't know you know you spend the day with me you might change your minds but

IBS on a practical level and apologies because you obviously don't have no no it's fine but does it make it difficult for instance going out on a on a date for a meal yeah or does it make it difficult being intimate because you're worried you need to rush the bathroom like is it that kind of stuff yeah absolutely absolutely and um when I did finally finally find a guy that was interested and I remember being with him once in the supermarket and I was panicking about what to eat because I know that certain food, I was trying to work out what foods affect me in different, because it's so complex.

And I was panicking about what to eat because I knew that, you know, maybe we'd be intimate later. And what I ate for dinner was going to obviously have an effect, you know, later on when we were in the bedroom. So I was panicking and he just lost his temper with me. And, you know, he said, you're just ridiculous. You know, you're so fussy. And I, I didn't have the courage

to explain actually why I was being so, so fussy and picky and worrying about what I was going to eat. But yeah, so things like, you know, intimacy, a big one, going out. When I was working in offices, that would be really difficult. You'd be in the toilet and you'd in offices that would be really difficult you'd be in the toilet and you'd be I would be really self-conscious of you know what is everyone thinking of me because I'd use about a whole roll of toilet paper I'd go through a roll of toilet paper and what's everyone in the next cubicle thinking of me you know I'm constantly getting this toilet just this really yeah just this yeah again it's something like my mental I just have to manage it I know that you know when I drink too much and when I eat foods that you know aren't

necessarily too healthy I know that I'm gonna have a dairy wheat of things that I know now kind of do make me flare up just actually just recently just a few weeks ago I was diagnosed with colitis which is um because again I started. Colitis is kind of right down the end of the rectum. And, you know, we put the camera up there, or we're not we, obviously, I didn't put a camera on it. My consultant put the camera up and it was all inflamed. And I, again, I know that's linked to stress, because whenever I get stressed, I go through stress, I get these flare ups. So I know there's a link. And I know I need to be more healthy in mind and body. But it's not always easy. It's not easy. And again, it's

with IBS, it's just something that I find embarrassing, I find it embarrassing. I find the IBS more embarrassing now than my mental health, because I talk about my mental health so much. But the IBS when I start bleeding, or when I have really bad cramps or when it just feels really uncomfortable or when I'm worried about you know if I want to be intimate with someone and I do I find it really really embarrassing and I know one of the guys that I've been with yeah I'm sure because I was going through a flare-up and I'm sure and I was going through my flare-up you know that kind of was what turned him off because it meant I couldn't be intimate for a while because I just didn't feel, I wasn't, yeah.

So it's still a source of embarrassment. You know, when I first got it in my mid-20s, it really did feel like a massive failure, a massive failure, another failure. I try now not to look at it as a... Oh, it definitely isn't a failure. I mean, I'm glad you've spoken about it for the purposes of this podcast. I cannot tell you how glad I am and how impressed I am that you have because I know of so many people who either have IBS or similar issues who will get such comfort from this. those of us who don't have it, but who might be dating someone who has it, to understand it from that side as well. And it's so interesting what you were saying.

You described it as a gut feeling, that it was linked to your stress. And it's literally a gut feeling. Like your gut is your second brain, isn't it? Yes, it is. It really is. And I don't think, and I've said this to doctors actually, and doctors, oh, don't be silly,

or, you know, no, and it's nothing to do with that. And yeah, that's's challenging I find that challenging yeah I just wish people would have more be more open-minded particularly health professionals actually because sometimes that's the most difficult talking to health professionals about it they I wish people would be yeah more more sensitive and more empathetic not not sympathetic more more empathetic I think with it. And so many people are affected by IBS. So many.

So many, or some sort of guts complain. But it's this real source of shame and embarrassment. Particularly, you know, I've spoken to guys about it, and only because I've talked about it have they talked about it with me. I just wish we could talk about it a bit more, you know, because we've got to digest our food. It's got to go through. So why can't we? It's a natural thing. Again, you know, just like having a cold or having a headache, you know, it's something that happens. And we, you know, we talk about our colds and our headaches, you know, just without

hesitation. But when it comes to something in our guts, because it's not very glamorous or I don't know, just not talked about, it's seen as something embarrassing. And I because it's not very glamorous or, I don't know, just not talked about. It's seen as something embarrassing and I think it's a shame. I've got a very important question before we go on to your third and final failure. Are you single now? I am.

I mean, this is insane. Well, I've tried, honestly. Are you open to set-ups? Yeah, I am. Oh, great. But I'm really, I'm not very, I'm really complex. Well, great but I'm really I'm not very I'm really complex well no I mean I'm that's I'm being really we'll chat afterwards okay yeah yeah no I am I am because uh you know I'm 31 now I've never been in a proper relationship yeah I would

like to I would like to so yeah I'd like to I'd like to your your third failure which again isn't really a failure because that's the whole nature of this podcast it's about what we learn from them and how we can learn more about success but you published a book which by any metric is an incredible success particularly when you are talking about what we started our interview on which is this devastating day that you had where you were about to jump from Waterloo Bridge. The book is called The Stranger on the Bridge and it is wonderful and I think you should all rush out and buy it. But you brilliantly said to me in an email, you don't really love talking about the fact that it hasn't sold as many copies as you would like it to. But I'm very glad that you're

going to talk about it because I'm going to let you into a secret which is that no one's books ever sell as much as you think they're going to unless you're writing Harry Potter yeah but I had a similar thing when I when I wrote my first novel everyone would always say to me oh my god you published a book amazing how's it going you know and you've had the same thing haven't you people ask me how it's going yeah all the time all the time because you put your heart and soul into it don't you you put your heart and soul into it, don't you? You put your heart and your soul, and particularly with this book, because it's so personal. It's so personal. And myself and my co-author, Britt,

we spent almost two years going through all my old diaries growing up and going into such personal, personal, you know, really going back over everything, the depths of my despair. When it came out and everyone was like it's gonna do really well and everyone's gonna love it and how's it doing it must be doing really well you know where's it in the chart oh that was the one where's it in the chart how many is it sold I lied I lied because I couldn't face being honest and I think probably if someone if I go out

of here and I see a friend and they'll say how's your how's your book and actually no maybe I won't maybe I will maybe now maybe now that I've spoken about it maybe I now I can say and also with me if I'm honest I think because you know when I got my diagnosis at 20 and I look at my early 20s as kind of a write-off and all my friends were getting the jobs and getting relationships and being success what I see as successful and I wasn't and I felt so guilty that particularly again I think coming from this Jewish background where success is really important actually in a lot of cultures isn't it success is really really important and failure is something that you know we don't talk

about and it's seen as embarrassing and so I I felt like a failure I felt like such a failure such a failure through a lot of my 20s actually only when I started when obviously I found this guy on the bridge and I started talking about mental health and started doing work in mental health finally I felt you know I'm I'm not such a failure anymore but I feel like I've almost got to make up for all those years that I felt like a failure. Or not just for myself, but for other people. And I know, you know, I know that my family, my friends, they love me no matter what. It's unconditional love. But there's still this element of me.

Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think so many people in so many different ways relate to that in a tiny tiny way like I never felt that I fitted in at school I was at school in Northern Ireland I always spoke with a very English accent and I honestly believe a massive part of my drive to become a journalist and then an author was to see my name in print and to prove myself to myself right right and to prove those like other people wrong which is yeah sort of ridiculous but yeah but sort of great because I wouldn't want to be without my drive no no absolutely I think it's so important it's so important and I am I am I am I'm really there's so many things I want to achieve in mental health and I'm so ambitious but yeah I want people I want people to see me as um and that's the other thing as well actually when

I think about it now I know people worry about me and people will say to me oh you're doing well you're doing well then and I want people to think I'm doing well and I want people to think I'm successful because I don't want people to worry about me. A lot of people in my, yeah, as I said, through my early 20s did worry about me a lot because I wasn't myself. And now, so again, I feel I've got to prove that I'm, well, I'm successful. And so when this book came out and even, you know, and I spoke to my publishers and they said, well, it didn't sell, it's not selling as we hoped it would. Is it out in paperback yet?

No, it's coming out in paperback in May. Okay. I mean, you've come to the right place. So I've published four books now. And there is a general assumption in the publishing industry that you publish hardback to get the critical reviews, but it doesn't sell in hardback. It sells in paperback.

That's where the volume comes. And also to reassure you, when I met you, I thought your book had done really well. So I had read loads about it. I was like, Johnny Benjamin, of course, I know exactly what this story is. So I think the perception that you have of yourself, it goes back to what we were saying at the beginning.

Like it's hard, you're hard on yourself and you need to have more compassion on yourself. That's your challenge. Do you know what? Because I started the CFT, this compassion focused therapy, to have more compassion on yourself that's your challenge do you know what i've i've because i started self this the cft this compassion focused therapy two years ago and um you know i think well whenever i've entered therapy it's always been like right hopefully maybe a month two months three months and you know you get to three months and you're like no and then six months and no in

a year and i said to my therapist I was like I'm not making progress this is I'm just he was like no you are you are making progress and yeah I realize now it's kind of like a life's journey and I think for me I think the meaning for my life is to be at peace with myself and to be compassionate with myself. I think that's my life's journey now is to, I don't know, I think I'll get there eventually. But it's a journey, it's a journey, but I'm prepared to go on that life's journey now. I feel like, because I have touched

when I've gone on retreats and I've gone on lots of different retreats and done different workshops and I've touched self-compassion, I've touched self-compassion and I've looked in the mirror and even said I love you to myself which is revolutionary but then I go back to normal life daily life and it stops you know I go back to my being hard on myself but I know I can get to

that place of being self-compassionate and you know even if it is a life's journey to get there even you know I think you know when I'm 70 80 well if I get there if I can just be at peace with myself when I'm that age and feel self-compassionate when I'm that age you know and say you know no matter what happened I'm proud of you and I love you and then yeah then that's that's my life's journey okay so we're we're basically both into it, isn't it? Because I think that what's amazing about your journey, as you describe it, to self-compassion, is that it touches so many people. So actually in showing compassion to yourself,

you're showing compassion to other people who feel that they are untouchable or unlovable or misunderstood. And I think that is a quiet and beautiful revolution. And I thank you so much, Johnny Benjamin, MBE, for coming to my flat. It's been the most amazing conversation. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being so open. Thank you.