How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S3, Ep9 How to Fail: Haemin Sunim

Episode Date: February 27, 2019

Sniff. Sob. Wail and gnashing of teeth. Yes, it’s the SEASON THREE FINALE already - how did that happen? For our final episode in this series, I had the great privilege of talking to Haemin Sunim, one of the most influential Zen Buddhist teachers in the world.He is a Korean ‘super-monk’ - so-called because he has over one million followers on Twitter and because his books have become instant global bestsellers. His latest, Love For Imperfect Things, is a guide to self-acceptance in which Haemin beautifully explores the idea that it is only by exercising compassion for our own vulnerabilities that we can pursue truly meaningful relationships with others. I read it in that fallow period between Christmas and New Year and it was a wonderful way to set my intentions for 2019. So much of what Haemin says chimes with the themes of this podcast, especially the concept that failure is a lesson, not a wholesale definition of self. ‘Life teaches us through errors,’ he writes. ‘When we accept the lesson from our mistake with humility and gratitude, we grow that much more.’It was such an honour to meet Haemin, and to ask him more about his philosophy of failure. We discuss his self-perceived failure to be a good son, a failure of patience, romantic failures, break-ups and how resistance to a situation can often expend more energy than acceptance. He also manages to make me feel better about my repeated failures to meditate regularly. Apparently, just by observing my irritation at not being able to meditate, I AM ALREADY MEDITATING.I really love this episode and I hope you will too.We'll be back in April, but if you’re missing us terribly, don’t forget you can pre-order the book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day here.It would be amazing if you felt able to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. This helps things like chart position and is good for attracting sponsors, which means I’ll be able to afford to carry on doing it!Thank you so, so, so much for listening. Your messages, your likes, your Tweets, your emails and your love continue to mean the absolute world to me.I’ll see you in April. How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate Books  Love For Imperfect Things by Haemin Sunim is published by Penguin Random House   Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayHaemin Sunim @haeminsunimChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card. Other conditions apply. So for the last trail of season three, our sponsors, Fourth Estate, have very kindly said that I can talk about my own book, which is coincidentally published by Fourth Estate. My book, How to Fail, Everything I've Ever Learned from Things Going Wrong, is part memoir, part manifesto, and has been inspired hugely by this podcast, my fabulous guests, and my incredible listeners. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It has chapters on families, on dating, on surviving your 20s, on failing at anger, failing at relationships, failing at babies, and very importantly, failing at sport. It came from the heart and the gut. I loved writing it. I'm super nervous about it because it does feel quite exposing, but it is deeply honest. And I really, really hope that you like it when you read it and that it makes you feel less alone. It is available to pre-order. So if you go to www.waterstones.com, I would be immensely grateful if you pre-ordered a copy. It really, really helps. And it is out in bookshops on the 4th of April. Thank you so much for listening. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail

ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better. I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. Heyman Sunan is one of the most influential Zen Buddhist teachers in the world. His name means nimble wisdom, and his first book, The Things You Can Only See When You Slow Down, sold over 3 million copies and was translated into more than 30 different languages. Born in South Korea, Sunim originally traveled to America to study film, but found

himself drawn instead into the spiritual life. Educated at Harvard and Princeton, he received formal monastic training in Korea and now has more than a million followers on Twitter, where he shares practical and spiritual advice for dealing with life's daily challenges. In his second book, Love for Imperfect Things, Sunim turns his wisdom to the art of self-care, arguing that only by accepting yourself and the flaws that make you who you are, can you have compassionate and fulfilling relationships with others. Failure is something we all experience, he writes. Each time we fail, we can learn from our mistakes and become a little wiser and more prudent. Heyman, it is such a delight to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Can I start by asking you what failure means to you? I think we are inevitably fail. We will fail. The question is whether we can fail, you know, gracefully, and also whether we can learn something from that experience. So I think I had a lot of failures in my life. Yes. Do you think that humans find it difficult, especially a modern human, because we live in an age of perfection or seeming perfection on social media. Do you think we find it difficult to embrace the concept of failure and mistakes? Yes. You know, sometimes we have very high expectations, you know, about ourselves, then the bar is way too high and we are setting ourselves up for failure, you know, sometimes.

So especially when you're looking at the photos of your friends on social media, they are having a wonderful time. And how come I'm not having a wonderful time? I remember one time I went to a beautiful mountain area in Vancouver, Canada. But to have the wonderful photo there, you know, I have to climb about four hours and then I have to fight with the flies. There was a lot of flies, you know, like running, buzzing around. So and then when I got there, I was so hungry. However, the photo looks fantastic. I look happy against the backdrop of beautiful mountain. So, you know, for those who are just looking at the photo,

they will think, oh, he's having a wonderful time. And how come I'm not having a wonderful time? Actually, whenever you look at another friend's photo, remind yourself that maybe, you know, they've been hungry. Maybe they have to fight off with the flies. I thought your book was absolutely beautiful. And I love the concept of embracing your flaws as part of yourself and part of your connection with the universe.

Where did the initial motivation for writing that book come from? Oh, because when I first became a monk, I thought that I would just have to check into Buddhist monastery and then meditate and then become enlightened like the Buddha. However, you know, after living in a monastery for a while, I realized that, you know, one of the obligation we have to do was to participate in Sunday service. And then after that, we are often asked to have a tea with my, our, lay people so I ended up having tea with many many people and they start you know talking about their you know personal problems you know problems with

their husband or wife or children the stress at work and things like that and then as I was listening you know I didn't have at that time I didn't have a whole lot of life experience because I was still in my 20s but I you I was willing to listen and attentively and compassionately. And then they told me how much it really helped them. And so that got me very interested in helping other people and cultivating compassion through that work. So that's what I've been doing. And then as part of my work, I was asked to write a book, you know, and then my book became really popular. So I realized that maybe I can write a second book,

which is how do we deal with some of our flaws? And how can we, you know, overcome like a disappointment or how to forgive other people, you know, how to reach out to other people and express love. So that's what motivated me to write the second book. Can I ask, as someone who tries and often fails to meditate, do you ever find it difficult to meditate as a Buddhist monk? Oh yeah, absolutely. But the thing is, if know, if you realize, if you become mindful that, oh, I just fail, that is meditation, you know. Just whether you become

aware of what's happening in your mind, that is the whole point of meditation. It is not to get to somewhere, some kind of a peaceful,, rather whether you can become aware of what is really happening in my mind. Clearly, that is precisely what you are supposed to do. That's fascinating. And is the next step to observe that you're thinking you're failing, but not to attach emotion to it? Right. Yeah. If you're attaching some emotion you know, emotion or expectation, then you become mindful. Oh, I'm expecting. Oh, I'm expecting something wonderful to happen, but it's not happening. You know, I feel like failure. Oh, now I know that I'm thinking that I feel like failure.

You know what I mean? So you see yourself objectively and non-judgmental way. And that's the meditation. Well, let's talk about expectation because it ties into one of your failures, which is the time that you were at a Zen retreat, and you were given a task which involved setting out the table. And an older monk asked you at the time that you were setting out the table, actually to go and sweep the outside steps. And you felt that this was very inconsiderate of him, and therefore you had a sort of expectation of the task being onerous. Can you tell us what happened next and what you learned? Yeah, I'm glad that you liked that episode from my book, Love for Imperfect

Things. It's interesting, because as a junior monk, I was very busy, you know, because during lunch and dinner and breakfast time, we have to go and start preparing for our meals. So we were really busy as a team. However, this senior monk came up to us, to me actually, and then he said, why don't you go and then sweep the stairs? So I was quite upset because I was thinking to myself, couldn't he see that we are working really hard? You know, why did he have to add more extra work to us?

You know, if he found that the stair, it is a problem, then he should have, he, it has to be, why couldn't he do it? You know, however, you know, while I was just thinking about these things, you know, internally, my mind became very negative and very unhappy. You know, I felt like a victim of this particular situation so after finishing up the preparing the meal I went outside and started sweeping the you know stair and I realized that it takes about three minutes you know it was not an onerous job you know I could have done it without this internal negative chatter. And so it was almost the internal negative chatter that was making the task seem worse.

Yes. It seems I felt like I was a victim of the situation. However, realize that whenever we feel very unhappy, it is because we are resisting to what is. Whenever we resist to what is, then of course we'll feel very unhappy. The trick is, you know, how do we turn our mind and then try to accept the things as it is? Did you ever tell the older monk about this realization that you'd come to, sweeping the steps? No, I was just too embarrassed to talk to him about it. I was supposed to be mindful and become, you know, cultivate serenity, but I was like, you know, complaining within my mind.

There's another episode in your book, actually, when you're also on a retreat and you're sitting opposite the same monk for dinner every night and he doesn't engage with you and you try to engage with him and he doesn't give you anything back. And then on the final night, he ends up being smiley and friendly. And you realize that actually I was projecting all of this negativity about what he might be thinking of you. Do you think that we're too worried about what other people think of us? Absolutely. Yeah. We often think about the worst scenario, you know, this person may not like me, or maybe there is something wrong with me, you know, however, it could be, it might have nothing to do with you, you know. So we have to carefully observe, you know, what is really going on? What is really

true? Is this my projection? Or is it reality? Do you think that if we live our lives, according to what other people think, then we fail to be ourselves? Yeah. The first chapter of my book, I talk about self-care. I was a very meek and quiet kid because I was a meek and quiet and introverted. You know, everybody, especially my parents, you know, they say, oh, be a good boy, you know, listen to what I say, you know, my father. And then I wanted to be a good student. So I listened to what my teacher said. So I was very obedient, agreeable student while putting down my own particular needs, you know. And then when I went to graduate school in the United States, we had to do a lot of group work. And then because I was a meek and you know agreeable I ended up

doing really difficult work all the time you know so I was very stressed and overworking so I asked my you know friend who was senior to me at the time and he told me that we should be nicer be kinder to ourselves first then you can be kind kinder to other people. I think that is absolutely true. We have to be kinder to ourselves and then we can become kinder to the world. Just like when we are in the airplane, we are advised to take the oxygen mask first and then assist other people later. I think that it also, the same lesson can apply to our daily life. And is it difficult to know oneself if you are like that,

if you are a child who wants to please others and who does well at school and who is conscientious? Because I think that was my experience, was that I didn't really know who I was or what I wanted. I knew what other people wanted and I was good at meeting their needs. Right, right. You know, unfortunately, the school does not teach us, you know, how to become self-aware about who we are, you know.

Only after we graduate from high school, then we slowly begin to understand under what circumstance I thrive, you know, under what circumstance I don't do as well you know so getting to know ourselves it's a journey but once you get to know yourself clearly I think you feel a little more confident and you can actually have a better relationships you know oftentimes I remember you know one of the people that I met in Korea, she's so nice, so kind all the time. And yet when it becomes just too much, rather than saying no to them, she would just cut off, disappear. In Korean, we have this expression, I am taking submarine. I love that expression.

So you go under the water and nobody can reach you so she would just disappear for like two weeks three weeks and when we are wondering you know what's happening you know and nobody knew how stressful she was so rather than you know you know making yourself suffer in that fashion I think we should be respectful to our body to our mental state and if it's too much then you should say it is a little bit too much for me I think some people listening might worry that taking care of yourself and self-care sounds very indulgent almost like you're spoiling yourself, particularly in Britain, where we don't like to be nice to ourselves. What's the difference between self-care and self-indulgence? I think if you are not nice to yourself, oftentimes what happens is you do have those kinds of stress ended up accumulating within your body and within your psyche. So what happened is even though you

don't mean to be mean, but you end up being mean to other people, you know, because you don't know how to process your stress. So doing the self-care is not selfish or self-indulgent in my opinion. It is a really important step for you to have a good relationship with people around you. I find it fascinating that you went to America initially to study film. What's your favorite film of all time? Do you have one? Oh, this is a terrible journalist question. I really like River Runs Through It. You know, I talk about that movie. I love that film so much. I know. I really like it.

There's something about the movie. I think I even talked about it in my preview and the preface of my book, how, you know, you can still love somebody even though you don't understand the person fully. You know, this was profound, you know, teaching for me. You know, you can still love somebody even though you may not understand the person wholly. You do say this beautiful thing in your book about sometimes an act of love is leaving someone to their own devices and giving them space. Right, right. Sometimes we just want to be left alone.

Yeah, giving us, please give us some space. That can be a great gift that they've been wanting so rather than trying to go there and fix everything you should have more trust in their own ability to get better i mean a river runs through it also beautiful to look at the scenery the montana scenery is stunning in it as is is Brad Pitt. But that's my stuff. So going back to your failures, Heyman. So when you went to America, you were drawn to the spiritual life. And then you ended up applying for various professorial positions.

And one of the ones that you applied to, you failed to get. Tell us about that. Right. That was one major failure that I felt at that time, because I was fairly good. When I first applied for a professor job, I applied to 20 different schools. And then out of 20, I was invited to do a conference interview, like 12 or something. And then out of 12, you know, six or seven, you you know university invited me to the final interview which is campus interview and out of six or seven schools there was one particular school that I really wanted to get a job you know it was a really good school and so I really prepare hard

however it turns out to be the first interview that I had to do you know they asked me to come really you know early of course because I haven't, you know, early. Of course, because I haven't done a whole lot of job interview by then, this was my first experience. And so to my mind, I thought, if I just do my best, you know, if I just show them how dedicated I am, you know, how hard I've been, you know, preparing for this job, maybe they will like me, you know, that was my idea. However, in the in the process you know they asked me a couple of questions and then the next day in the 4 30 in the morning or something I woke up and I realized that oh I'm not gonna get this job you know I realized and I realized why I'm not going

to get this job the reason was I was only thought you know concentrating on how hard i prepared not so much on what they were looking for you know so the departure of my concern it should have been from their side not from how i was feeling so they are looking for not somebody who's going to work hard but somebody who already had all those qualifications that they were looking for so from the second interview onward I tried to study hard you know what they are looking for and how I can actually satisfy their own needs and do you take rejection personally it sounds I mean you would manage to think it through in your head, but do you have that sort of personal reaction?

Right, right. This is a very good question too. Like when we are not very experienced, we are not very good at, if you don't have a lot of failure experience, when that happens, you take it very personally and it can be very painful however as you have more failure experience you know you learn not to take it so personally so I got hired you know later on became a professor and then I was part of the selection committee like two years later so we had a job opening in our own college and we have to hire a new person but the whole

process i realized that this is really really specific you know we have a like a six or seven different professor and one thing different kind of particular professor in mind you know somebody who is doing a women's study you know like she prefers somebody who knows something about women's study and somebody who's doing historical approach. And this person prefers somebody who's a historical approach. It is very much random, you know. So you cannot, you know, say that just because they didn't choose me, I am the failure. You know, that is not the failure. That is not the case. My first book, I talked about even if you are Sting or James Taylor, if what they are looking for is Pavarotti, then you're not going to get it. You're not going

to get the job. But it doesn't mean that your music is not good. Your music is still wonderful. It's just that it didn't fit. I love that. Thank you. I should just mention, by the way, that we're recording this at your publisher's office. And because it's London, there's lots of building work outside. So if anyone can hear a vague drilling sound, that's what it is. And can that be applied, Hyemin, to romantic rejection? To someone saying... Oh, yes. Absolutely. I think so. Each person, they might have different preferences, right? And then depending on what kind of family you had, you know, what kind of sibling dynamic you had, I'm sure you have different preference, you know, when it comes to your romantic partner.

Like the way you don't like everyone, and the other person has every right to reject you it doesn't mean that you are not good enough you know it's just that it wasn't a good fit are there some people you don't like oh yes yeah yeah there are many politicians that i don't like yes is part of your spiritual practice sending love to those people? Oh, yeah. Part of my spiritual practice is to understand them. We ended up having a hard time because we want to change people. We want to change our partner. We want to change the thinking or behavior of our children or of our co-worker, for instance.

However, they don't change change it's often they resist you know the more you want them to change so rather than you know demanding this change maybe we should approach and thinking oh maybe i should understand where this person that particular attitude or thinking is coming from. If you understand, and what happens is your heart becomes softened, and it has more opening. And so even though there are some differences, you feel as though I can take the differences. Talking of hearts, you founded something which has my favorite name of anything ever. You founded the School of Broken Hearts in Seoul. Can you tell us about it? Yeah. So with the success of my first book, I thought maybe I should do something very meaningful

to the society. And so I looked into what sort of problems people are struggling with nowadays. And I realized that a lot of problem is mental, psychological. So I offer a class for people who just lost their family member. For example, that was like one of the earliest courses that I offer. And then people who just diagnosed with cancer, people who just went through a very difficult divorce, people who just got laid off from work, young people who've been looking for a job but could not find a job of their dream, you know. So I offered these kind of courses. And then oftentimes, you know, people feel that I am doing it alone, you know, I'm all isolated and very lonely. However, you know,

when that course was open, they will all come and start sharing their story and they realize that they don't have to do it alone and in this very safe and supportive environment and i remember in a in the course on a person who just diagnosed with cancer woman in her 20s it involved a part of like a dance therapy so they would dance a little bit. They express their fear and frustration and anger. However, this one woman, she would just dance and then she would retreat to a corner of the room and she would start crying and she was yelling, like, I'm only 22 years old.

I didn't do anything wrong. How come I have this? This is so unfair, things like that. And then women in the mid 40s like about her mother's age listening to her and she would go there and then start hugging her you know almost like an angel you know descending and then another woman in her 60s would come down and then start hugging her so So, and then everybody, including myself, you know, we go and hug everyone

and we just cry, cry, cry, you know, for three, five minutes. But this was very empowering experience. You know, we felt like we don't have to do it alone, you know? So I, you know, start doing this School of Broken Heart. And now we have like 60 you know therapists you know working

together in two different cities in South Korea yeah that's so wonderful Hyomin yeah thank you I want you to bring it to London yeah I would love it you know some people told me are you going to do it in other places does it ever exhaust you at the end of the day doing that kind of therapy or keeping your 1 million Twitter followers engaged and giving advice and taking on people's pain? Do you ever get exhausted at the end of the day? When you are deeply connected to other people and really your heart is open and, and you really worry about them, things like that, then you don't feel so much exhausted. I become exhausted when I feel a sense of disconnections, you know, a sense of I beginning to worry about my own,

like a selfish, you know, kind of thing. Then I begin to feel a little more exhausted. So when our heart is open, I think there's a lot of energy, you know, latent energy waiting for us to use. So you did eventually get your professorship and you became incredibly successful and the man we know today. And your third failure details a time when you were very, very busy helping other people and your mother became ill, but she hid her illness from you.

And when you found out you had a sort of realization, can you explain what happened? Yeah, that was difficult, very difficult, because I felt like I was going around different places and trying to offer help. However, I neglected my mother. And I was very sad and shocked. And when she told me that she was having... It was basically my father who called me and told me about this whole situation. So I dropped everything and I flew to see know see my mother and I spent about one month

you know with her I regret that I didn't take better care of my parents and then I remember my mom like even I was doing it I had to go give a talk and then my talk involved you know sending this good wish you know blessing energy to the people we love so i was sending this energy of love to my mother and then in that moment i just wanted to text my mom i love you mom i miss you i love you something like that and my mom like reading it she really cry cry cry because i rarely say asian man we rarely say to our mother, you know, I love you. It's kind of rare things. But, you know, I really, that's what I wanted to say. And then while reading that, my mom felt, oh, I should be better, you know, I should have more strength and, and I might be

able to go through this. So, you know, about like two months later, my mom become much better now, and she doesn't have a whole lot of problems. But at that time, I felt like, you know, about like two months later, my mom become much better now and she doesn't have a whole lot of problems. But at that time, I felt like, you know, I was neglecting my own parents. I think a lot of people feel that they fail as parents. They feel very guilty that they're not giving enough time to their children. But you don't often hear children saying that they feel they're failing as children and that there's a reciprocal nature to that so do you feel that you're failing better now at being a son now I think you know my parents ever since that episode you know I am spending more time with my parents so I feel a lot better

about the situations I think it is because we have a tendency to love our, in Korea, we say that we love our, the love is usually descending down. That's what we say. So it's very easier for us to love our own children, but it's a little bit difficult to love our, I mean, the same kind of attention we give it to our children, we don't give that to our own parents. That's what we say. But it is natural parents you know that's what we say but it is natural you know however i think we have to just do our best you know given the circumstance

do you have brothers and sisters oh yeah i have one younger brother okay and what does he do oh he's a high school teacher oh so you're both teachers in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really love my brother, yeah. Were you a nice older brother when you were little? Yes, I was. Because I was, you know, four years older than him, so we didn't fight much. You know, I was so much bigger and older. And he was very small and weak, so I had to protect him. So even though he's, you know, fine, he's adult, and he's doing everything,

really, you know, there's no problem. I have so much love for him. I think he knows that. You mentioned that Asian men find it difficult to say I love you, mom. America is known to be a culture of expressiveness and in emotion. Was it difficult for you when you first went to America to get used to that? Yeah, yeah, it was very difficult, especially the culture of hug, you know. We rarely hug in Korea.

So when people were giving a hug, especially, you know, between close friends, as a sign of affection, I was a little bit taken back. You know, I didn't know how to respond. But now I enjoy it, actually. I feel very close to friends. I think, like anything else, you get better at it. Can you describe to us an enlightened mind?

How would you describe it? Enlightened mind is the mind in which you become aware of what is happening right now right here and knowing that you are not the let's say imperfections but the being who's aware of the imperfections okay say that again yeah you, when we see our own imperfections, we automatically just assume that, identify ourselves with imperfections. However, if you just look closely in your own awareness and awareness itself,

then you realize that your awareness is that which is aware of your imperfections. But this awareness is not tainted or polluted by your own imperfections. It is ever-present, free of those imperfections, and yet it has the quality of knowing and quality of love. So there's a you that exists apart from your thoughts. Yes, yes. And then we often think that thought it is there

all there is but thought arises out of awareness this awareness of freedom awareness of full potential it does not have any sound or any quality in it and therefore we overlook it very quickly however if you become mindful of your own awareness, then you see that it is everywhere, you know, inside our body, but also outside of us, in that it was never born, and therefore it's not going to die. That's a beautiful concept. In the particular climate that we now live, so 2019, what in your experience through all of your travels and all of the people that you've helped is the number one most common problem that people come to you with seeking advice for? Like one of the very typical problem that they are feeling is overall anxiety, anxious you know, anxiousness about uncertainty, you know, of our future. And so they would ended up imagining the worst scenario, you know, worst possible scenario.

What if I get laid off? What if I cannot provide for our family? You know, what if I get sick? You know, all this anxious, you know, thoughts popping up. Whenever you feel anxious, my advice is that we can counteract that anxious thought with another thought. You know, this thought, you just tell it to your anxious thought that, maybe you can repeat after me. Okay. Dear my thought. Dear my thoughts. I will worry about it. I will worry about it.

I will worry about it. When it actually happens. When it actually happens. Yes. I definitely need to say that more. Yeah, because, you know, oftentimes 95%, you know, it's completely useless, you know, to worry about this because it will never happen. Or even if it happens, there's's nothing absolutely nothing we can do about it

so why do we worry it's so interesting that because i worried a lot as a child and i think i developed a way of thinking about the world which was if i think the worst then i'll be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't happen and if the worst happens i'll be prepared for it but it's only relatively recently that i've had a shift in that thinking. Exactly as you say, there's no point. I will expend my emotional energy when it comes to it. Right. You know, while worrying about it, you ended up filling your mind with negativities. Why do you do that? Yeah. Do you believe that if we fill our minds with positivity, that has a positive effect? You know, so many people talk about positive visualization and

mood boards and imagining the best. Do you think that works? Absolutely. You know, our mind does not have any kind of form or shape like awareness that I talked about. However, like water, you know, depending on which kind of shape of cup you use, so the water ended up taking that shape. If you pour it into a negative thought, it's going to end up taking that negative shape. But if you are pouring into positive thought, then it's going to take that, you know, shape of positivity. And Hyemin, are you writing another book at the moment? Actually, I have a third book just came out in korea and now it's been number one for the last eight weeks so let's see how it goes when you write

a book do you just let the mood come to you or do you is there a strategy for writing a best-selling book oh like my strategy is to talk to other people as much as I can. So I write something that is really applicable to their life. I don't want to write some theoretical books that has nothing to do with reality. There's this wonderful quote in your second book, Love from Perfect Things, which says you're talking about relationships. And you say the person you are destined for will not suddenly appear one day knocking on your door, like in the French film Amelie. One cannot become president without campaigning, even someone with a great chance of winning. A good relationship will never come about

without work. And I love that so much, because I think so many of us develop this romantic narrative from movies and from books, and we think that the right thing will just fall into our lap, and then that's it forever. But that's not the case. It rarely happens. I mean, sometimes it does happen, but just by waiting and waiting, you know, this perfect person will not appear. You have to put yourself out there, you know, let people know that I have liked to date people and then you will meet many many you know candidates but you will surely will fail you know however you know at some point you will you know hit it off you will find somebody and I think it's

important to know that it's not unromantic to work at things. That doesn't diminish the romance of it. Work can sometimes be very romantic. Oh yes, and you are doing it because you care about that person, you know. You are willing to go and make a dish that you are not familiar with, but because you are doing it, because you love this person. What do you do when you're feeling anxious? First, I become aware that I'm anxious. And when I become aware, I'm not in anxious anxiety, you know? I'm stepping outside anxiety.

And then because anxiousness can be residing in my body, so I would either take a walk and do some yoga or take a deep breath you know to try to relax my body hey man it's been such a pleasure talking to you i would like to ask you before you go what one piece of advice what's the one most important thing you would like the listeners of this podcast to know you know whoever are listening to this podcast to know? You know, whoever are listening to this podcast, I want you to know that you are actually wiser than you think and stronger than you feel. You can get through whatever the difficulty you are having.

So may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you be peaceful, may you be always protected wherever you go hey min sunim thank you so so much what a beautiful note to end on thank you thank you all so much for listening to season three of how to fail with elizabeth day if you enjoyed it please please do go to it iTunes to rate and review us, preferably with a five-star review, not that I'm picky. It really does help other people to find us and it helps our rankings in the charts. I would love to see you at one of the How to Fail live events that's going to come up in springtime. And until then, keep failing.