How To Fail With Elizabeth Day - S4, Ep1 How to Fail: Vicky McClure

Episode Date: April 3, 2019

We’re baaaaaack! And to celebrate our fourth season, please welcome the one, the only, VICKY MCCLURE.You’re in for a treat with this one. Vicky is not only one of my favourite actresses but also one of my favourite people, as genuine as she is talented, and a total delight to interview. She’s probably most famous for her role as police officer Kate Fleming in Line of Duty, which kicked off again in spectacular style on Sunday night (did you watch the first episode? Could you follow what was going on with the UCO in the OCG who needed to get out ASAP? And what about that twist, eh?). Before that, McClure was Lol in Shane Meadows’s film and Channel 4 spin-off series, This Is England, a sinister maternity leave cover in The Replacement, a campaigning parent in Mother’s Day and a tabloid reporter in Broadchurch. Oh, and she’s won a Bafta, obvs.McClure joins me to talk about failed auditions, failing to work hard enough at school, failed relationships, failure to be spontaneous and why she’s never going to be someone who posts her gym workouts (mainly because not going to the gym is one of her failures). Along the way, we discuss the pain of losing out on jobs (how dare you, Peaky Blinders) and how she fell in love with her fiance over the phone. How To Fail With Elizabeth Day is hosted by Elizabeth Day, produced by Chris Sharp and sponsored by 4th Estate Books *IMPORTANT NEWS KLAXON*The book of the podcast, How To Fail: Everything I've Ever Learned From Things Going Wrong by Elizabeth Day, is published TOMORROW and is available to pre-order here. I’m doing a live How To Fail With Elizabeth Day event on 5th May at The Bridge Theatre in London with a very special guest (to be announced). There are still some tickets available here.   Social Media:Elizabeth Day @elizabdayVicky McClure @vicky.mcclureChris Sharp @chrissharpaudio4th Estate Books @4thEstateBooks    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Visit amex.ca slash yamex. Benefits vary by card, other conditions apply. Hello and welcome to How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, the podcast that celebrates the things that haven't gone right. This is a podcast about learning from our mistakes and understanding that why we fail ultimately makes us stronger. Because learning how to fail in life actually means learning how to succeed better.

I'm your host, author and journalist Elizabeth Day, and every week I'll be asking a new interviewee what they've learned from failure. My guest this week is someone you fall in love with on screen and then have the happy realisation that they're every bit as brilliant in real life. Vicky McClure is a BAFTA-winning actress who became famous for her role as Lol in Shane Meadows' film and Channel 4 spin-off series This Is England. More recently, she's been winning plaudits as the unflappable DC Kate Fleming in Jed Mercurio's gripping police procedural line of duty. Born and raised in Nottingham, where she still lives, McClure is one of our most versatile and talented actresses. But her career has not been straightforward. In the past, she's worked

in Boots and H. Samuel to make ends meet. Because, as she said in a magazine interview, a tenor is a lot of money when you haven't got it. In that same interview, McClure said, I will never conform to what is perfection. she was talking about exercise at the time but I like to think it fits in well with the theme of this podcast Vicky McClure so lovely to see you again full disclosure that interview was one that I did with you yeah it was good I remember doing that interview and it was the first time I'd done an interview and I read it back and it sounded like me. And that's why I, you know, always stayed in touch and always said to Tim,

if I ever get to request somebody, can we get Elizabeth? And that's why I'm here doing the podcast as well. Thank you, that is such a lovely thing to hear. And I have to say, it's a very rare person who, actually it hardly ever happens to me that I interview someone and then we become sort of friends. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Because we did and I felt really comfortable chatting.

It's difficult when you're interviewed in any case, whether it's just about work or it does become personal, where you just want to say it how it is but then to get it on print how it is is really difficult. Yeah. But you achieved that, so. Thank you. Well, let's just carry on.

There we do. The lovins, yeah. For 45 minutes. I have to say before we start as well that we're recording this in the wonderful Sophie's on Great Windmill Street in Soho, which is an amazing place to come for steak. But it does mean that there's a slight sense of air conditioning behind. So if you're hearing anything, that'll be what it is. Vicky, now we chatted a bit about your failures in advance of this podcast.

And the job thing I always find super interesting about you, in advance of this podcast. And the job thing I always find super interesting about you because you were, to all intents and purposes, to the outside world a successful actress when you were in This Is England. But actually, you were doing part-time jobs in chartered surveyor's offices, weren't you? Yeah, I was actually at the surveyor's office for eight years. It started as a part-time job and it became very much a full-time job did everything from being on the phones to HR to filling vending machines to fire warden your favorite um you know just such a variety of work because that's what happens when you know I guess you're in an office environment you can get a bit bored and an opportunity comes up and at the time there was no opportunities coming up in the acting

world and if they were they weren't secure so know, reality strikes and you have to keep earning money and keep your feet on the ground and just keep going. Were you recognised when you were doing any of those jobs as being lol from This Is England? There was one time I was. I was a trainer at the time and I was in a training session teaching people about data protection. I couldn't tell you now whatever I was on about, but I might have pretended like I knew what I was in a training session teaching people about data protection I couldn't tell you

now what whatever I was on about but I might have pretended like I knew what I was on about some guy just went weren't you in this is England in the film this was before we'd done the series and it just completely took me by surprise because I just thought one how do you recognize me I didn't really get recognized back then and two why are you in this job and I was like well didn't really get recognised back then. And two, why are you in this job? And I was like, well, it didn't pay me millions of pounds so I don't ever have to work again. I also didn't have a role in it where it was going to shoot me into the industry. I had an incredible role in it and, you know, it ended up becoming a lot more than what the film was.

But, you know, it made no difference. I went and shot for six weeks and I went back to work. So is it weird then as an actress that people will consider you to be successful when it doesn't feel like that on the inside? Yeah, I mean, that's the way it is, I think, in most of these sort of industries. You know, we've all got these illusions, haven't we, that that person's living their best life and we only post what is the best thing to post

and we're only really doing PR when there's something to PR about so at that time it seems you know like everything's great and it's all going hunky-dory but like we were saying just before we started this I was working all year last year and it's looking like majority of my work will all come out at the same time that's by chance that's by the channels making their decisions on when things come out. So all of a sudden I'll be in everyone's face and they'll be like, God, you're so busy, you're so successful and this and that. And it's like, it's not.

The year before that, I barely worked. So it changes year by year, changes day by day. And in those patches where you barely work, how do you keep sane? I love my life. I genuinely enjoy doing nothing sometimes. I enjoy spending time with my family. I enjoy pottering, sorting my house out, just life, just doing stuff. And, you know, sometimes it's tricky because you go, well, I am anxious that I've not got a job sorted. I am anxious that, you know, money isn't coming in. And I've always been

good with money as in, you know, I've made sure I've put my pot aside for my tax and my dad drilled it into me from a young age and you have to be when you're self-employed but I've just got this thing about me where I just know I'll always work that doesn't mean I'll always work in the industry it means if shit is the fan I'll go and get a job like everyone else has to so when there's downtime you just do other things you know there's we can all fill a day if you've got a day off you can fill it with all sorts of rubbish you know what's the worst job you've ever had probably in a sunbed shop for a week I didn't last long because everyone just kept coming out going oh it's hot in there I just thought are you for real like what are you on about

it's hot or they'll come in and say, which one's the hottest bed? Which one's been on the most? I just thought, I can't work here. And also, I'd never been on a sunbed, and the guy that owned it was quite insistent that I can use them for free, and I said, I don't want to. I don't want to go on a sunbed and burn myself. So yeah, I left there.

What about the best job you've ever had? You've had so many amazing acting jobs. Oh, God. I mean, do you know what, I'd say if it was acting, then it will always be This Is England, the freedom I get on that job is beyond for me it's an actor's dream

some actors would much prefer the script and I enjoy working with script and somebody like Judd McUrier who writes so incredibly well, it's a privilege to say those words and you know sound as intelligent as Kate does but this is England is something that I can sort of get into the heart and soul of as much as it's you know at the moment is there's no future for it as I'm aware but you know it's still such a huge part of my career but then Mother's Day was

a big challenge for me it was a big challenge for the accent it was a such a huge part of my career. But then Mother's Day was a big challenge for me. It was a big challenge for the accent. It was a big challenge playing somebody that's a real person that was such a horrific story. There was so much responsibility on that job. But I had a really enjoyable time with the people that were on it. So I don't know, it just comes in waves. And actually doing a documentary that I've just made

is probably my proudest work to date, just because it's real and it really means something. Tell us about the documentary. Basically, a group of people all living with dementia, ageing from 31 to 84. And we formed this choir with them and it was in Nottingham. And it's really hard to describe until you watch it, but it's just watching these people live with dementia, learn new songs, get therapy through music.

I don't know, we formed a family. I spent time with people that aren't going to get any better. There's no cure for this disease, and they're the most inspirational people you could wish to meet. I mean, it's heartbreaking heartbreaking and it was just such a joyous experience like it was bizarre because it's so sad yet on the other side it was the best three months of my life you know and were you drawn to that because of your grandmother yeah but it wasn't like oh you know my I was involved with the Alzheimer's Society before my non-I was

even diagnosed and I didn't really know what it was. My non-I was diagnosed. It all of a sudden became the forefront of our family. We had to learn a lot and we had to try and figure out what the hell was going on and where you get help and all these things. And all of a sudden, since then, and once anything's in your life, you see it everywhere, don't you? It just becomes like this thing where you go, oh my God didn't even realize it existed now it's everywhere but then aside of that I just think now it has become the new cancer where you only have to talk to someone and they'll go yeah I know my friend's mum or my mum or somebody's got a connection and it's not like I'm going oh you know this is going to save the world but it's something that came at me really organically

it wasn't like I went right I need to make a documentary about dementia. I'm not a presenter. It's not something that I sort of was planning on doing, but it came organically from a production company, and I just really liked what they were trying to do with it. I think when people watch it, they'll be pleasantly surprised. I think the word choir can be a bit of a funny one. You might think, oh, it's a bit religious, a bit old-fashioned,

and it's nothing like that. It's beautiful, yeah. I can't wait to of a funny one. You might think, oh, it's a bit religious, a bit old-fashioned, and it's nothing like that. It's beautiful, yeah. Can't wait to see it. Yeah. So talk to me about your failures. I sent you quite a list. You did. I'm literally going through it now

and saying, which one should I pick? But school was a specific one that you wanted to talk about. Yeah. School was, for me, some of the best years of my life. I had a great time at school. I've still got my schoolmates who are my best mates. I just didn't really learn an awful lot in terms of actual education. I learned a lot about life and about people and about respect

and lots of other things which have been instrumental in my life. So it's not like I walked away with nothing. It's a shame when you get older, you go, God, I wish I had have listened. Because there's so many things that I now wish I knew. Or at least, you know, even just like we're right in the middle of a political nightmare. And I sit and watch these debates and I've got no idea what they're talking about. And so many people say the same because they are talking absolute gobbledygook. And then the language that unless you understand that language, it's very difficult to very difficult to digest but you know some things just because I didn't educate myself

I wasn't interested I was interested in drama I was interested in my mates and boys and you know all the things that are sort of priorities when you're that age but I look at my nephews now and go please make education a priority because it's so important to be in the know. And it is a regret in so much as I just wished I'd have given it a better go. Like, because I know I'm not thick, if you know what I mean. I'm not, there's lots of things that I go on, maths and science, like it just blows my mind. I just can't quite get there with things like that. And even with a job like line of duty, when you've got such tricky dialogue

and you're having to work it all out, you know, it takes a lot of homework to get all that wrapped around your head. And you get there because you have to ask questions and you have to educate yourself. And yeah, I think if I'd have spent more time doing homework or at least listening and not prattling around in school,

then I would have been well-educated. I remember you once telling me that you called line of duty lines of duty. Yeah I still do yeah it is I mean that's a memory test it's not so much the educational side you know line of duty is great because I think it appeals to such a wide audience of people and it's not an education it's not a class to try and understand police banter. The lines are like a memory test and that's just hard because you can't train your brain. The other thing that I always imagine must be quite hard about the particular role that you play in Line of Duty, Kate Fleming, is that she's such a strong woman because she is unflappable, which also means that she doesn't emote that much is that a challenge it is because

I'm quite emotive I think and then you know a lot of the characters I play are quite emotive as well so I have to sort of restrain on certain things but that's a great challenge because it just gives me a chance to do something different and I think now we're sort of seven years or something ridiculous since we started I've got to know Kate loads better it's much easier putting her shoes on and going right back to work and also letting her develop a bit you know when we come to seeing season five you'll see a slightly different version of her you'll see a slightly different version of us all because we've grown up the characters have grown up we all change and develop but yeah she is she is pretty yeah stern. And going back to your failure at school, such as you see it, because I actually think,

I mean, lots of people don't understand the political process or maths or science you have done well at school. But did your parents, did they see it as something that they wished you would apply yourself to? No, not at all. I think, like my sister hated PE. My mum and dad would happily write her a note, you know, make up any old sort of rubbish. Yeah, Jenny can't because she's hurt her toe. And, you know, it wasn't that they weren't encouraging us to learn. It was just if your kid isn't enjoying something, it's not going to make a massive difference

if she doesn't do netball that day. Do you know what I mean? So they were encouraging and my mum was always on us, make sure you've done your homework and all that kind of stuff. But I was doing what I was doing. I started the workshop when I was 11. This is the workshop in Nottingham? In Nottingham, yeah.

And I was there for 10 years. I was there twice a week, every week, doing plays. All my hard work was going into that. So that meant that I just didn't have the time to worry about, you know, my RE homework because I didn't care about it. There was lots of things that I did care about in school, lessons. There was like silly classes that we used to do, like city and guilds and all those sort of things

where you go, it's like quite interactive and it's practical and, you know, those sort of things. But I also think there was the part of me that because I was part of a big crowd at school, that it wasn't very cool to learn. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And actually, it's cooler that you didn't do your homework

and it's better that you're just dicking about and writing letters to each other, folding them in those stupid ways. I can't remember, it was like origami or something. And then you'd have to unfold them and that was like priority for a class. Get the letter around the room. You know, work out what we're doing after school. after school yeah so yeah and I was probably quite encouraging to other friends as well don't do your homework let's go out but it sounds to me as if the flip side of that is that you have great friends from that oh I've got the best friends the best friends and

you know we're all doing great jobs and I think there is that flip side of me going yeah I want my nephews to learn my nephew who's 11 now is doing really well at school and I'm really proud of him and he's getting like great results and it really makes me proud like the sense I get from it I just go oh god I really hope you don't lose that encouragement to want to learn but in the same breath just do what makes you happy because it doesn't matter if you haven't got GCSEs that you're going to fail in life you know maybe I felt that at times when I thought oh god my GCSEs were terrible you know there's letters in there I didn't even know existed in that GCSE you know you just kind of go it's either an A, B or a C it's like not for me it was like D, E, F and I was like oh god I remember getting an A

in English speaking and listening and I thought oh my god I getting an A in English speaking and listening and I thought oh my god I got an A in English and then my teacher was like it doesn't really count for anything it just means that you talked a lot and you listened I was like oh okay brilliant perfect for the purposes of this podcast so and talk to me about failed auditions because that's something that I think actors so have to deal with mentally so often. So often. I mean, I wouldn't be able to count how many auditions I've failed at. And whether it's I failed because I was unprepared and tried to bullshit my way through it.

Yeah, I love the script. It was great. Never read it. Do you know what I mean? Or I haven't learned my lines because of whatever reason. And you've got to be prepared. You've got to be prepared. You've got to be prepared. But I think there would have been auditions where I'd failed it

or it had failed me, you know, and it swings in roundabouts. It's a funny old process. It's one I've never got to grips with. It's one I'll never really enjoy. Because, you know, you go for an interview for a job, you work your way up to that and, you know, you get anxious about it and you try and prepare for it as best you can that's like a weekly occurrence for actors you know you walk

into a room full of strangers I genuinely believe they've already got an idea of who it is they want to play that role so that person they'll have started at the top and gone you know we want her she's brilliant she's in everything yada yadada, yadda, yadda. She doesn't want it. So then they start bringing it down to, oh, well, maybe this person. So I already feel like I'm on the back foot. Do you know what I mean? I already feel like I'm not good enough to just be offered the role

because they need to check I can actually do it. So, you know, maybe that's just an insecurity in me, but it does put me on the back foot and it does make me nervous. And I do still go to auditions going, oh, God, I to do it I don't want to be here so you're you know you're not in a great place to be going hey I'm Vicky I'm going to be so relaxed and I'm just going to do it and it's going to be fine you've got to have a thick skin in this industry and I do have a thick skin and I can brush a lot of stuff off but there are times where you just go I'm fuming about that I worked hard on that audition I made sure I did my research we all

got on really well and sometimes they'll say those frustrating things like oh you know so are you okay to make the filming dates and you're going oh my god you ring your agent straight after going they're checking the dates they want to know if I've got the dates and then you don't get it and you go don't build people's hopes up like that because Because it's not fair. Because we're all, you know, waiting for the next job and hoping that it's going to be that job. Because you want to be in it. You're there for the meeting. There's auditions I don't go to because I don't want to be in it. But if you're there, it means that surely you've got an investment to want to be there. an investment to want to be there.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know you... I mean, you would have been brilliant in that film. That was a really hard blow because, one, I'd done a lot of research and I'd really, really tried to nail it. You know what I mean? And I just knew it was the sort of job that was right for'd really, really tried to nail it. You know what I mean? And I just knew it was the sort of job that was right for me.

It's good to admit it. You know, sometimes if you just say it out loud and go, yeah, I went up for that job. And you actually name the job and say, this is what it was. And, you know, that at that point in time was a really, would have been a massive game changer for me. You look back, you go, it doesn't matter anymore. Like it just doesn't because the film's been and gone and it did great. And the people that were in it did their job well and everything's fine. But at the time I just, I did, I felt like it was happening. Whether that was because somebody said something in the room that made me assume that it was coming my way. And it's good to get

feedback in the room when they go, that was just an incredible read. Thank you so much. Blah, blah, blah. All that stuff. You can't help but walk so much, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. You can't help but walk out the room going, oh, my God, I think I've got it. Peaky Blinders, I've auditioned for that every time. I've never got the job. And I don't mind admitting it, it's not wrong for me to sort of name, not shame... I think it's so good that you admit it.

You know, it's just going, Peaky Blinders is that kind of show that I would say is an obvious casting for me where people are going, you know, it's just going, Peaky Blinders is that kind of show that I would say is an obvious costume for me where people are going, you know, working class, you know, right down the road, Nottingham and Birmingham, next door to each other. And I've just never got the job. And, you know, I just wouldn't audition for it now again, because I'm just like, well, we get it. I get that it's just not going to work. And it's fine. Other people have got the job. But at the time you go, right, I'll do the audition one more time, but then I'm not doing it again because I can't keep putting myself through.

You want me, but you don't want me. I don't get it, you know. Do you experience it as personal rejection? Not really, because I don't have any sort of friendships, if you like. It's not personal because I'm not around them. So whoever's doing the audition or producing or directing it, it's work, it's business. So I don't take it personally.

It just hurts because you personally feel like you've not done what it is they needed you to do. But to any other actor out there, I'll always try and explain to them, sometimes it will come down to the stupidest of things the majority of the time the frustration is you won't know what that is because you don't get feedback you know you might get we loved her but it's just not gone her way but I don't want to hear that it's just like pointless information and it's not encouraging

feedback it's like it's so misleading isn't it we loved her but we don't want her okay fine yeah it's a bit like someone in a relationship saying it's not you it's me yeah yeah but in saying that I don't you know I don't need a fucking report on how my audition went either if you've got some really valid information or feedback to give me them definitely it would be helpful because it might help me in the future for something you know I don't really know that nowadays it's tapes everybody's taping like mad and I get it and it's really helpful for people that don't live in London as I don't so to save you the hundreds of pounds train fare tape it and I really you know I think that's

really good on the flip side I like to meet people. I want to sit down and have a chat about anything and everything and just see how we all get on, because that is going to be a big part of it. And which is why, you know, I've had to learn to just be myself instead of trying to be something that you think they want you to be, because you'll get the job. And then when you get to set, you have to try and carry that on so now you just go be yourself get in the room get to know the people talk to them see what it is they're trying to achieve with their jobs and you know hope that it'll go your way and if it doesn't it's not meant to be and you've just got to go with it like that because there's too much disappointment if you don't. Peaky blinders I will never forgive you I'm sorry that's it's an outrage. Don't worry I've forgiven I'm not bothered It's an outrage. Don't worry, I've forgiven.

I'm not bothered. I mean, look, you know, there's loads of great jobs and there's loads of great actors in that particular show. I'm not as good as you, come on. Oh, Elizabeth. I can say that. Talking about that whole thing about it's not you, it's me and how it's similar to kind of a failed relationship,

one of the things you wanted to talk about, I don't know if you wanted to actually, but one of the things you said kindly you would talk about is your failed relationships before you met Johnny or your fiancé. Yeah, I mean, it's not anything that I, I don't really talk about it publicly because, you know, what is there to talk about? It's been and gone and it is no more for a reason. But I just think it's something that everybody, majority of people, I think will have failed at relationships, not necessarily their fault for the failure, or maybe it is their fault for the failure.

But I always say to Johnny, like, I wished I'd met you years ago because I'd love to have spent more time with him than the people that I did spend time with but then we always you know we laugh and go but then we weren't really the people that we are now and maybe if we had met before we wouldn't have connected because of you know who we've grown in to be because I'm not the person I used to be in the relationships that I was in because I was like completely different and that's down to the fact that me and Johnny are madly in love and actually he gets me and there's no need for bullshit. And I think when you're young or when I was young,

it was all about them. What do they need? What do they want? I gave up acting, I gave up everything for a whole year just because of him. I thought I need to just focus on being here and I moved to live in this you know place where I was just unhappy and but it was all because I thought it was making him happy and it it just I look back and go wow what an idiot but it's great because I've learned from it and I'll never do it again um you know if you love somebody you let them fly oh I cannot

agree more because I had a series of failed relationships obviously because they didn't last so um throughout my 20s and 30s really and exactly the same thing I thought it was my role to be the caregiver the one who like worked but also got dinner ready and made sure the fridge was stocked and I don't know what I was trying to prove it's not that a lot of the people I was going out with weren't demanding that of me it's just that I thought that that's what would make them love me more I did exactly the same and and you know now I love getting that like I'm one of them I like to have a Saturday clean and I like to do a big shop and fill the fridge and you know I do like the feeling of Johnny coming home and going, oh, the place looks lovely.

And it's not like I'm doing it because he needs me to do it or he wants me to do it. I want to do it because it's nice for us. And I know he appreciates certain things. But back then I was doing it because I was trying to get something out of it. Oh, I'll do this for you. I'll do that for you. I'll sell this. And then we've got money for that. You know, it's like, oh, my do this for you I'll do that for you I'll sell this and then we've got money for that you know it's like oh my god what am I doing I gave you know I left the workshop which meant I had to get back into the workshop once I'd had my year of being crazy and going can I come back I'm really sorry I just I messed up and Ian said yeah you can come back but you'll have

to audition and I had to like do a monologue in front of the group to try and get back in it was petrifying and you know luckily I did but at the time I look back and go god I missed a whole year I left my agent I had an agent in London how old were you I was like 18 and just messed it all up and I didn't I didn't it was a good thing to do because I look back and go you know I obviously just got to that up and I didn't I didn't it was a good thing to do because I look back and go you know I obviously just got to that point where I thought god all I do is at the time I was dancing as well so I was like dancing every night going to workshop going to London and it just felt like I had no life and I didn't get to do what I wanted to do and it was that rebellious thing where I was

like you know what I'm not nothing's happening anyway nobody's giving me a job you know I'm not going to become a dancer you know I just thought sod it I'll just give it all up and I was besotted you know that was all that really mattered to me I think that one of the hardest things for people like us as we used to be in those sort of relationships like so people who sort of get off on the caregiving aspect of it. One of the hardest things is working out who you are. And I don't know about you, Vicky, because I was basically in relationships from the age of 19 to 36.

Like just a series of long-term monogamous relationships. Yeah. And I never took the time to work out what I wanted. It would always be what I wanted in the context of a couple. Yeah. And in the context of what made, as you're saying, the other person happy. context of a couple. Yeah. And in the context of what made, as you're saying, the other person happy. And honestly, I think it took me 39 years to work out who I was. And that's when I met the

man who is now my boyfriend, who completely understands, as you were saying, that true love is letting the other person fly. Yeah. When me and Johnny met, without giving out like, you know, a really gushy romantic story, it felt like it when we first met well when we first spoke we was on the phone and I came off the phone and I just knew I just knew I was just like I absolutely know that and I felt awful because I googled him and you know I was like oh god he's married then we met and he was in the middle of a divorce and I was like oh okay that's all right but it was tricky because I just thought, I don't, oh God, I'm scared now because I'm thinking I just genuinely feel something that I've never felt before. And he's a man, he's a proper man.

Like he's a grown up. And I do think it's hard growing up and trying to meet people and trying to sustain a grown-up relationship you know I moved in with certain people when I was younger and it was hard to try and like run a house when you're not really grown up enough yet to run that house and to have those responsibilities because you're still not sure who you are and deep down you know you're in a relationship that's not right for you but you're forcing it and you'll do everything you can to make it work because also you don't want to tell your friends that your relationship's broke down because it's embarrassing you know all these silly little things that you just go the minute you're out of it this feeling of relief

that you get and then when you do finally meet somebody that completely gets you lets you fly loves you for who you are and you can have that genuine laughter you know you look back and go all right get it now and you can have the straightforward conversations that again I don't know about you but in in my past relationships I always had that slight feeling of treading on eggshells like oh yeah I don't know if I should raise the fact that like that I might quite like to move in one day or whereas the relationship I'm in now I I can completely talk about that and feel heard and understood and he will talk back and I won't and it's great it doesn't turn into like throwing something or running out of the house running away like going crazy and you know when

you're young you just can't control your emotions and everything just gets a little bit too crazy you know you just go it's just that's part life and you know I look back on all the guys that I was with and I don't wish any of them any harm they weren't bad people you know they're all happy now and everyone's back in they've got their own relationships and they've got children and they've you know gone off and lived their life and fair play happy days like I don't have any regrets and I don't have any ill feelings towards anyone but at the time I was failing myself because I wasn't being honest with myself because I knew that something was wrong I knew I wasn't meant to be at that place at that time I knew I shouldn't have been treating myself like that I knew I shouldn't have been treating myself like that. I knew they shouldn't have been treating themselves like that

or we shouldn't have been treating each other like that and, you know, not supporting each other in the right way and all those kind of things where you just go, God, I've got to 35 now. I get it. And it's very hard to teach that. I don't think it's easy to say to, you know, a girl in their 20s, be careful about this, be careful about that.

You've got to kind of work your way through it yourself. I totally agree. You have to go through the failures to be ready for the person. But what was the phone call, though, that you had with Johnny? Well, he rang me to talk about Svengali, the film that we did together. And because our characters were in a relationship, we just got on to talking about love.

And just the way he was, like, you know, describing it, I just was like, oh, my God, this is, like, the man for me. And then we first met way he was like, you know, describing it, I just was like, oh my God, this is like the man for me. And then we first met and I just, you know, we literally lived together from a week of meeting. We pretty much stayed together from that time until now. We've never not lived apart. How long have you been together now? Seven years in March.

I know. And did he feel the same about that phone call? Yeah. I don't know what it is. I don't know. I'm not sure about fate or whatever word you want to associate it with. I just think I couldn't see my life without him. I've never loved anybody more than I've loved Johnny. And I love it. And it sounds cheesy. But it's a nice thing to say out loud and talk about is that, you know, I love him more and more every day. It's like things just get better and better because seven years with somebody

who you genuinely want to spend time with and they want to spend time with you, I feel really, really lucky. I do because I've had relationships where I didn't feel like that. The quote that I used in the introduction, I will never conform to what is perfection, as I said, that was to do with your attitude to exercise and i'm actually really thrilled that you want to talk about your failure to exercise because anyone look at you i mean you i don't

want to embarrass you i mean maybe i do a bit but you're an astonishingly beautiful woman oh right no i didn't know you're gonna say that that. Now I do feel embarrassed. It's just like having the phone call with Johnny all over again. Oh, yes, come on. And I think it's really great for people to hear that an actress such as yourself in the limelight, in the public eye, actually has a very straightforward and quite normal attitude to exercise, which is... Yeah, I don't know because I

don't really do much of it look I have phases and I had a phase a couple of years ago where I started a gym and I went for a very short period of time and I thought that was it I thought I'd cracked the knot and I was in and I was going to become this fitness guru and I'm going to be constantly Instagramming my trainers and my this and my that and look at me working out. And I didn't because I didn't enjoy it. But I'm probably quite lucky in so much as I danced all my life. My family are, you know, quite a slim family. I don't know if that's got anything to do with their metabolism,

whatever it might be, but I don't sit down. You know, I'm one of them people that's always a busy body in about here there and everywhere I've got to a stage now I think where I'm like okay I'm 35 you know I can do that thing where I'll sit down and go oh or when you go to get up and I think god what are you doing you're 35 why does that hurt or you know why are you sort of like me and my friends have a bit of a laugh about you know your knees hurting now and you know, why are you sort of like, me and my friends have a bit of a laugh about, you know, your knees hurting now. And, you know, it's because we don't do anything. We don't do any exercise.

So I'm not promoting people don't do it. I'm just saying it's not top of my list. I am starting to get a bit tired of the constant stream of media, of please, you know, I've got friends you know sort of celebrity friends if you like who I'm extremely proud to say that they encourage loads of people and they get lots of people out of a hole you know what I mean and if somebody's there to inspire you to get you off your ass and go and do something and change your life and I'm all for it I have absolutely no problems with that it's just the excess that it's got to now and the pressure that if you don't look a certain way if you're not exercising if you've not done veganuary or whatever that is you're not

conforming it's a bit like this 10 year photo I'm not doing it yeah because I don't care because it doesn't matter like what I look like 10 years ago or what I look like now it's getting ridiculous I just think it's getting to a stage where you feel the pressure to join in. You feel the pressure to do something. You've got to do it when you're ready. There might come a day where I think, right, sod it, I'm going for a jog. Or I'm going to do something about it because I'm not getting any younger and I do need to keep fit and I do need to keep healthy. But I'm not going to change anything drastically and you know I don't want to be posting about it and doing all that kind of stuff it's just not me what is your relationship like

with social media and things like Instagram I've written you know what Instagram's like my favorite out of the social media what would you say platforms channels platforms that we've got because I you know visually it's just easier and Twitter can become a little bit like rah, although to be fair my Twitter followers or whenever I've been interacting on there I've never had any great issues where people have sort of trolled me or anything

but Instagram's great because it's instant and it's a nice place to share images, I do look at it sometimes and I panic and go what is wrong with the world because it's just the over and go, what is wrong with the world? Because it's just the overshare. It's the overshare that worries me. So I try not to overshare, you know, and it's not trying not to overshare.

It's just very, you know, sometimes like if you're really pissed off about something or if you're really overexcited about something, you kind of go to social media to tell everyone, oh, I can't believe this has happened and then when you start typing it you go oh my god get a grip like there is bigger things to worry about or then you go to post something that's like so overly exciting or glamorous you kind of go oh no people don't need to see that I am quite mindful of what I post sometimes you you know you wake up and think,

well, I'm just going to post a picture of the sky. And you do. And that's fine because we all do. Because the other day there was a pink sky in London and it was everywhere on my social media because it's pretty and everybody wants to give somebody something to post. So I get it. Do you care how many likes you get? No, I don't. I don't care. I like it when you when you go oh I didn't expect that many people to react to something like that it does make me sort of not laugh but I'll post something and everyone will be like wow that's an amazing picture and it's lovely and lots of nice comments and lots of likes and then I post something that means something to me and it doesn't get as much likes

and you kind of go oh that's a shame and it's not anybody's fault it's just it doesn't mean that much to them but it'll be something that I haven't connected with that audience with about and you just kind of go that image doesn't resonate with them and that's it but you go oh that's a shame that didn't get many posts many likes because people don't really care about it as much as I do so the exercise thing I mean we sort of touched on it but there are people on Instagram who post all the time about clean eating and you know some yoga instructor in Bali saying this is how you should baste your quinoa yeah for the best protein hit do you think that kind of thing can be damaging

do you know it's funny there's a guy called Richie who I can't remember the strength temple I think his name is and he's a friend of mine and he's in Bali now he's a you know he does yoga he does meditation he does the fit classes that you know lots of people are doing now and I did sign up to it and I have done a few I've just not got to that stage yet where I'm regularly doing a class. And if I do, I'm not going to post about it because you don't need to know about it. You've got better things to do. So I get it. If that is your thing, then that is your thing. I just think it's not the world I live in.

Do you know what I mean? Like in my area in Nottingham, you know, you'll see people running and you'll see groups meet up and they go for a run and whatever else but I don't see people posting about it do you know what I mean yeah so I think it's just rather than yeah exactly I think maybe it's because of the people that I follow on my Instagram you know I follow all my other friends as well which aren't sort of in the industry but they're not the ones posting about it so to me me, I just sort of go, oh, it's just really for that industry or for that sort of clique of people. And I don't live in that world the majority of the time.

I live in the other world. So I just kind of go, well, to me, it just seems for everybody that's looking at all your posts, which is the majority of people that aren't in that industry, they just can't live up to those expectations. They don't have the time or the money. You know, keeping fit and eating well is not cheap. And I don't care what people say about, yes, you can be organized.

And yes, it costs nothing to go for a jog. And if you're organized enough, you can really bring your cost down for your food and, you know, make sure you're eating better and all those kind of things. And I don't eat crap. You know, I'll try and eat as best I can but it's not realistic for certain working-class families it's just not and unless there's some sort of solution to make that easier you know if you've got three kids and you need to go for a run when are you meant to do that on top of that you're being told well you can do that and you can do it for 10 minutes you go well those 10 minutes are really precious and for those 10 minutes I want to sit down and have a cup of

tea and like you know just stop for 10 minutes so it's not for saying that it's not for those people it's just going stop putting it on as though it's dead easy because it's not they'll do what they need to do when they've got time to do it we can't eat like that all the time we can't constantly be on that sort of train of right I'm going to get organized and I'm going to have a life plan and work out when I'm going to eat these nice foods and do all this exercise it's not possible for a lot of people yeah just need to ease up on ourselves and on our judgment of each other talking of planning yeah this brings me on to my favorite of your failures, because I'm exactly the same,

which is that you fail daily at being spontaneous and that you're a real list maker. Oh, God, I love a list. Yeah, I do. And do you know what? I'll put on my list like... Be spontaneous. Well, no, I'll put on my list like eat well or you know do fitness or something and I just think oh god I have to put it on a list to even think about it and then I never do it anyway

yeah I'm a real list maker I love like my paper diary I've actually gone electronic now which is I know I still got a paper diary and I'm like this is ridiculous I think I need to transfer but it's like Bob Dylan going electric I can't it's gonna be like a major major shift in my psyche it is because but things change so often now so I was like paper diary pencil you know now I'm just like oh they're rubbing it out just I can't deal with it it looks too messy but I do love a list and I do like to be organized and I get massively frustrated when people aren't organized around me it just gets me, like, quite stressed. Because I just think, God, we've had enough time to get it organised. Can we just get it organised?

So, yeah, I'm a bit of a list freak. Are you very punctual? Honestly, I was fuming that I was going to be late for this. Oh, I didn't think you were. You were late, though. It's so funny that you sent me a message being like... But this is my theory. Like, if you're late, you're on time yes do you know what I mean that's how I yeah so I kind of go for me in a 12 o'clock then I'll be here at 10 to and

that's me on time if I get here at 12 I'm late so yeah I've now started factoring in lateness I'm like the other person because sometimes it can come across as rudeness, I've realised, to be so punctual, because the other person feels that you're judging them. So I now, deliberately sometimes with certain people, I like factor in like a five minute delay and then turn up. I've got a friend who's always late. And I'm sort of mindful of that because that's never going to change. And I'm always going to be early. So we are what we are. You know, I'm not going to get annoyed.

It's just I am what I am. I can't help being punctual. But it's when people are disorganised that I get really stressed. It's difficult because in my industry, it's quite a disorganised industry where things change so rapidly and, you know, filming days don't always go as expected. And so sometimes it can be chaotic. So it can be a bit stressful.

Does the thought of losing control scare you? Yeah, I like to be in control. Whether it's keeping everything in control at home or if things start to, you know, it's very easy for life to go out of control because something will just come and flip your world upside down. Whether that's somebody coming ill

or something catastrophic happening within the world that all of a sudden turns everybody upside down or something getting cancelled, a job that you thought was going ahead is no longer going ahead. Anything can happen in a heartbeat, can't it? So I'm probably better than I have been in a long time just to let things go a bit because I care less. The older I get, I care less about other things. And then the older I get, I care more about things I didn't care so much about before so you know I have got to that stage now where I just go

you just gotta let it go you just gotta let it go it's not worth it what about things like getting really drunk or taking drugs like do you because that's something that I've never taken hard drugs yeah because I'm terrified of what it might do to me. Like, I'm terrified of losing myself in that and not being myself. It's never attracted me. I'm the same. Drinking, I did a lot of drinking when I was younger to the point where I just don't drink much anymore.

So if I go out, I can have a few drinks and that will do me. And I can get completely blottoed, but I don't like the feeling of it I hate being sick when I'm drunk it's just you know you just go I know it's coming it's happened you know it happened last year it's not like it's I'll get to that stage where I just think I've took it too far and now I feel sick and then you you know got head in the bowl and you just feel like shit so I don't drink very much I was never ever going to get into hard drugs. I just knew it from a young age. We grew up in the weed era, you know what I mean? And that was as far as we was taking it.

And I'm glad of that because there was people that grew up in the sort of, you know, pills era where you just go, you don't know where that's going to escalate. So yeah, for me, it's never been a problem. And weed is one of those drugs where you tend, you know, control doesn't into it you just sort of there yeah enjoy whatever's on the telly with the cereal oh we can be clear um i love that we're ending with talk of your head down a bowl yeah i know i know so that's a nice mental image to leave our listeners with um i cannot thank you enough for being your wonderful self thank you so much for agreeing to do this i know how busy you are

and Peaky Blinders I'll never get over it but I cannot wait for the next series of Line of Duty thank you it's coming yeah thanks